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Tesla can detect aftermarket hacks designed to defeat EV performance paywalls

154 points by wgx 6y ago

raxxorrax 6y ago
Nothing unusual and also applicable for other manufacturers and petrol cars. You loose warranty of course, but some people still opt for "chip" tuning right after buying. Others might wait the 4 years.
- readred 6y ago
  Yep, sounds standard. If other companies could verify aftermarket hacks to void warranty, you can bet they would.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    Oh, they do. I think a lot of smartphones do check if the bootloader was ever overwritten.
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Years ago (when the jailbreak scene was still a thing), I heard claims that Apple could detect if a device was jailbroken previously (and wiped/restored since), presumably to deny service claims on the basis of a voided warranty. However, there were also claims that “restoring your device removes all evidence”. I’m partial to the latter being true, but I’ve never seen any evidence of either.
      - joombaga 6y ago
        AirWatch (MDM software) detected my iPhone 6 as jailbroken after it was jailbroken then restored. They had to add my device to an exception list. That could've been an AirWatch bug though.
        judge2020 6y ago
        Most likely a bug or some jailbreak system files lingering if you did a 'restore from backup' (iCloud or otherwise); nobody has demonstrated being able to detect a JB after doing a full restoring with iTunes and setting up as new.
        colejohnson66 6y ago
        Restoring from a backup absolutely leaves traces. The folders under /var/mobile/Library store configuration files for apps that are under /Applications[a]. As Cydia puts itself and other apps in here, it’s configuration files aren’t stored alongside them.[b] The consequence of this is that a backup backs up roughly the entire /var/mobile folder. So when a restore from backup is done, Cydia’s (and other apps’) config files are put back. In theory, Apple could detect this (previously jailbroken state) when they plug in your device at the store to do diagnostics, but (at least 5 years ago) I’ve brought a few “restored from backup” devices in for service and they don’t say anything. I guess as long as it isn’t currently jailbroken, they don’t care.[c] [a]: /Applications contains apps that come with the device and can’t be removed (such as Settings, etc.); Cydia installs itself and any apps you install through it into this folder. OTOH, apps installed through the App Store go under /var/mobile/Containers. [b]: The reason being: pre-jailbreak, / is mounted read-only, but /var/mobile is read-write. So iOS works on the assumption that any app installed to /Applications can’t keep its config files with it, so they’re put in /var/mobile/Library. [c]: Simply hiding the icons of Cydia and apps wouldn’t be enough to convince them as jailbreaking involves disabling a few daemons (the biggest is the OTA update checker; they don’t work well with a jailbroken device), so Apple’s diagnostics would probably show that some daemons aren’t running (that normally would be).
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Permanently disabling the stop/start is something I’ve done to the last two new cars I brought immediately after purchase. I imagine that’s a pretty popular warranty-jeopardising modification.
  - hyperdimension 6y ago
    Are you talking about the engine automatically shutting off when you come to a stop and starting again when you take your foot off the brake pedal? I recently replaced my starter motor ('09 though, so I definitely don't have the feature,) so I'd be wary of that, but don't they fit longer-durability starter motors in those cars? Actually, come to think of it, (please correct me if I'm wrong) they probably keep the fuel pump primed while 'on' but at a stop, but I'd be concerned about the lack of oil at engine start. I always was told to turn the key to on, wait for the ~2 seconds for the fuel pump to prime and after you start the engine, and let it run a bit before starting to drive. My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure.
    - jaxx75 6y ago
      Yes, the starters are designed differently. Engine oil really isn't going to have enough time to leave bearing surfaces and the valve train in any significant way. First start of an engine after hours of sitting is where lack of oil is a concern. Priming the fuel pump is for short crank time and start reliability, not reducing engine wear.
      - hyperdimension 6y ago
        That's good to know. You learn so many things by rote; rarely, it seems, do you learn the reasons behind them all. Thanks.
    - userbinator 6y ago
      My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure. It's an attempt at squeezing the tiny last bit of fuel mileage out in the standardised tests, and they obviously don't care if it wears things out faster...
- slipheen 6y ago
  Under US federal law auto makers in particular aren't allowed to deny warranty coverage to a car due to aftermarket modifications unless they can prove that those specific modifications caused the problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
- jaxx75 6y ago
  The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. Does 'tuning' a Tesla actually do this? If it is designed to perform at this level after paying Tesla, how could they deny warranty coverage with Magnuson-Moss in mind?
  - potatochup 6y ago
    The biggest concern I have with black boxes like this is how its going to interact with updates. Presumably they are intercepting messages on the CAN bus. The CAN bus is fairly easy to crack if you know what you are doing, but it also could change with the software version. The black box has probably hardcoded the message IDs that they are intercepting, but if the messages get reshuffled around in a software update it'll be sending out some data for some random other message which could have safety implications.
  - jayd16 6y ago
    Do they bin batteries and parts? Is the price based on a calculation of failure rates and warranty service costs? Or is it just a cash grab? I'm not sure.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. It's not uncommon to find models with a wide range of power outputs but the exact same mechanical parts, and the only difference is the program in the ECU. Before electronics, the difference might be in a few small parts[1]. If you spend long enough staring at parts catalogs you can easily spot such things. [1] One of the examples that immediately comes to mind is with diesel engines --- you can change the fuel injectors to tune power over a very wide range, limited only by your acceptance of fuel consumption and emissions. All the load-bearing parts of the engine (block, rotating assembly, etc.) are exactly the same: http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  And these days, the smart ones offer in-house ECU services, which is basically literally this: you pay more, to unlock mot performance. Or you do it outside the dealership's control and your warranty for whatever your mod changes (but not the warranty in general) is void for as long as you use your unofficial modifications.
rbecker 6y ago
> your connected car knows when you've hacked it, and it might be logging that data to use against you in a future warranty claim. [..] Nobody except Tesla really knows the answer to this right now, but knowing that my car could potentially tattle on me to its mommy is a bit unnerving. It's almost like the car is a hostile entity, loyal to its manufacturer instead of its owner..
- mtgx 6y ago
  The fact that Tesla can use the car logs AGAINST drivers when an accident happens, but the owners/drivers themselves don't get access to the same data to defend themselves should have been clue #1 years ago.
  - caspper69 6y ago
    This is why discovery exists, no?
    - rbecker 6y ago
      One shouldn't need a court order to get data logged by one's own car.
  - patagurbon 6y ago
    I wonder, does the GDPR apply here?
- TheChaplain 6y ago
  Well imagine you download Te5lA-b00ster-5.zip from Pirate Bay and install it into the car. Next thing you know the autopilot goes haywire and kills you. Who do you think will get the blame?
  - rbecker 6y ago
    If the logs were in a nice, user-readable form, tamper-evident, and the user was in control of if the car connected remotely to Tesla, and could examine what is sent, or was at least informed of it, you might have a point.
pratio 6y ago
This can also be useful in some cases right? - What if some external accessory or change was made without the owner's knowledge?. As cars become more software dependent, steps like these might become necessary. - Manufacturers obviously want to take their hands-off during warranty claims if the car has been tuned or modified. - The owner in the issue mentioned above hasn't had any issues while driving except a notification that wouldn't go away. As long as i can modify my car and drive it without a hassle, i would like my car to tell me what changes have been made to it.
- wittyreference 6y ago
  > - Manufacturers obviously want to take their hands-off during warranty claims if the car has been tuned or modified. And to some extent, rightly so. The mod in the featured article has a mode that disables traction control. I would not want to be responsible for the outcomes if that has bugs in it.
- m463 6y ago
  > - What if some external accessory or change was made without the owner's knowledge?. As cars become more software dependent, steps like these might become necessary. Yes, someone could tamper with your car, which would be bad. But honestly Tesla is the one who changes things without the owner's knowledge. Updates - when they give any description at all - describe bug fixes and upgrades. However look at the tesla forums and you'll find that tesla software updates are just as likely to downgrade your car. I can recall updates lowering the range, reducing regen, lowering performance and very very frequently breaking things that work fine. And lots of people were perfectly happy with older versions of the software and have declined updates -- only to have them forced on the car. That seems to be a good way to make an enemy.
- CarelessExpert 6y ago
  > This can also be useful in some cases right? These are basically the same arguments that are used to justify Apple's walled garden and refusal to support side-loading, and all the same objections apply. All we need to do is look at how John Deere is screwing over farmers to see why a walled garden approach to products is extremely dangerous for consumer rights. I just wish the government would step in and regulate away this behaviour, as it's clearly a market failure. I can't say I'm getting my hopes up...
murgindrag 6y ago
It feels like $40k is a lot of money to pay Tesla to license a car, at least so long as I can buy a car outright from its competitors for less than that. I'd rather have a car I own, all things being equal. All things being unequal too, actually. Tesla cars would need to be much better to compete, given the licensing versus ownership model. I imagine at some point, Tesla will switch to car-as-a-service models. I guess most companies already have those in the form of leases, but I don't lease cars.
- zpeti 6y ago
  All they are doing is voiding the warranty, so you're not exactly "leasing" the car. Change it all you want, but don't expect Tesla to fix your car once you've messed with it yourself. And don't expect to sue them when autopilot kills you, because it's not their responsibility any more.
  - belval 6y ago
    That always seemed like fair game to me. If only we could have the one big warranty split into smaller warranties for each part of the car, so tampering one part of it doesn't void the entire warranty.
    - SifJar 6y ago
      That sounds nice in theory, but I imagine in practice it's a bit trickier - presumably there are plenty of cases in which modifying one part of the car could cause damage to another, unmodified part. How do you figure out if any seemingly unrelated modifications are responsible for the malfunction etc.?
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        Except for a few edge cases at the margins those cascading failures are pretty obvious when they happen. Every other OEM has already had to confront this reality and every other OEM publishes upfitter guides for their vehicles so that the aftermarket knows what to do and what not to do. Every other OEM also lets the dealer network exercise most of the judgement regarding warranty and they mostly do a good enough job.
Tinyyy 6y ago
I wonder if Tesla will limit supercharger usage to unmodified cars.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  They do. Modified cars or those with a salvage title are blacklisted from Superchargers by VIN. It's their right of course, as it's their charging network.
  - djaychela 6y ago
    It's worse than that, they also block fast charging at non-Tesla charging locations, which to me is an over stepping of the mark, abs punitive action against salvage vehicle owners.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Its Tesla's liability and reputation if a Tesla vehicle with questionable integrity burns at a DC fast charger. I don't think that's "worse", that's the deal if you own a Tesla vehicle (regardless of how you obtained ownership). Just takes one careless tinkerer to ruin the narrative for everyone. Tesla previously had a recertification program, where you could pay for a tech to inspect the HV battery and powertrain to confirm it's state supported fast DC charging, not sure if they're still offering it though.
      - hansvm 6y ago
        > Its Tesla's liability and reputation if a Tesla vehicle with questionable integrity burns at a DC fast charger. That same argument could be made for just about anything being sold -- the original owner could still exert control over your purchase because their reputation might be damaged if you weren't careful. You're not wrong that the court of public opinion can be vindictive, but I think that's by far the lesser evil compared with not actually owning the things you buy. We grant exceptions here and there (can't use your baseball bat to kill a person, usually), but none anywhere nearly as invasive as prohibiting any activity that might give a former owner bad PR. The fact that Tesla has an automated means of enforcement is a big part of why this is coming up at all. They don't have to wait to figure out what the courts say; they can use software to do what they want till they're explicitly forbidden.
capableweb 6y ago
Maybe slightly off-topic but in general, do people buy random electronics over the internet and connect it to their car? Feels like a overly easy way of hacking a massive amount of cars, by simply having them buy a thing you connect to your already IoT-ified car, and allow anyone to read and control your car. Seems like the detection feature from Tesla is meant to provide this, rather than preventing 3rd party mods. As I would never connect anything to my cars IT systems, I would happily receive a warning if the car did detect something like that.
- kortex 6y ago
  Sounds like a great way to put yourself out of the tuning business. Unless we are talking some Ocean's 11 style scheme where you make a tuner company just to get their exploit into cars, all to be turned on at once on the big day.
- Balgair 6y ago
  They aren't 'random' per se. Typically you'd find one online and look at the reviews and ask people on forums about it. The aftermarket car audience is very online, much like HN. Getting into it, again like with programming, requires a fair bit of knowledge/mistakes. But, you gain knowledge and get better over time. If the electronics screwup your OBC, you can just get a new one. If they screwup your wiring or blow your engine, well, you don't get into cars if you don't want oil all over your arms. Blowing things up and rebuilding engines is part of the 'fun'.
devit 6y ago
The fact that they sell the hack for $1500 is pretty ridiculous. Seems like there's a market for a reverse-engineered version of the hack, priced at slightly above the cost of materials (which I suspect to be around $50 at most).
- dafoex 6y ago
  Given the "nice try module" is 3D printed, I'm sure someone could just order a job lot from JLC PCB or PCB Way and make them at home to sell.
- jayd16 6y ago
  The way I look at it, they have some time to failure calculation for the normal and performance usage. That TTF calculation goes into the price of servicing the warranty and that goes into the price of the car. You're basically paying for the warranty extension and that doesn't seem that bad to me. Feels more like overclocking to me.
- userbinator 6y ago
  I think it's just what the market is willing to pay. Prices in that range are par for the course with (ICE car) ECU mods too.
markvdb 6y ago
If I'd ever buy a car, I'd rather not have antifeatures in it. I'd rather have the Lada/Zhiguli [0] of the future: - safe - simple - electric - cheap - mass produced - open hardware - public road certified The Dacia Spring Electric [1] might get close. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAZ-2107 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAZ-2107 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia_Spring
- ironmagma 6y ago
  A lot of us share that view, but sadly, there is no perfect car...
  - Balgair 6y ago
    There is for me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_(first_generation...
    - iso8859-1 6y ago
      Can you still get new bodies for it, like you can with the MGB? Price list: http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm Article: https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/02/14/need-new-body-vintage-mini-5-speed-gearing-mgb/ https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/02/14/need-new-body-vin... EDIT: looks like yes: https://revologycars.com/ https://revologycars.com/
    - ironmagma 6y ago
      I can think of a few downsides, safety being one.
      - Balgair 6y ago
        Hey, you do you. For me, that car is perfection
- starpilot 6y ago
grishka 6y ago
So what happens, exactly, if you buy a Tesla and never connect it to the internet?
- slivanes 6y ago
  I believe they have a built-in SIM and mobile connection for its own purposes.
  - grishka 6y ago
    And if you remove that?
    - generaljargon 6y ago
      Presumably they can void your warrenty all the same since the car is no longer phoning home
      - potatochup 6y ago
        Teslas don't have to phone home to operate. They work just fine off-grid, and you can also opt-out of any data collection/phone home [1] if you want. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that the modification caused the damage (at least in the USA), so removing the sim and turning off wifi is unlikely to void any warranty [1] https://www.tesla.com/about/legal#choice-transparency https://www.tesla.com/about/legal#choice-transparency
Dylan16807 6y ago
> Others bring up the very valid point of right to repair—but does that also include right to modify? Yes.
natch 6y ago
The pioneers in any field always get attacked when they add safeguards. And then later when they catch up, the laggards add similar safeguards. Usually there are valid reasons beyond just the usual “protect profits” this gets portrayed as. Even if that’s part of it, it’s often more about protecting the brand and product safety. Autos are different from some products in that there are real safety issues if stuff is not done right.
argb 6y ago
These aftermarket hacks should definitely be legal, but don't expect Tesla to provide any more online services such as automatic firmware upgrades. These would have to be done manually by the owner now.

154 points by wgx 6y ago

Nothing unusual and also applicable for other manufacturers and petrol cars. You loose warranty of course, but some people still opt for "chip" tuning right after buying. Others might wait the 4 years.

readred 6y ago
Yep, sounds standard. If other companies could verify aftermarket hacks to void warranty, you can bet they would.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Oh, they do. I think a lot of smartphones do check if the bootloader was ever overwritten.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Years ago (when the jailbreak scene was still a thing), I heard claims that Apple could detect if a device was jailbroken previously (and wiped/restored since), presumably to deny service claims on the basis of a voided warranty. However, there were also claims that “restoring your device removes all evidence”. I’m partial to the latter being true, but I’ve never seen any evidence of either.
    - joombaga 6y ago
      AirWatch (MDM software) detected my iPhone 6 as jailbroken after it was jailbroken then restored. They had to add my device to an exception list. That could've been an AirWatch bug though.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        Most likely a bug or some jailbreak system files lingering if you did a 'restore from backup' (iCloud or otherwise); nobody has demonstrated being able to detect a JB after doing a full restoring with iTunes and setting up as new.
        colejohnson66 6y ago
        Restoring from a backup absolutely leaves traces. The folders under /var/mobile/Library store configuration files for apps that are under /Applications[a]. As Cydia puts itself and other apps in here, it’s configuration files aren’t stored alongside them.[b] The consequence of this is that a backup backs up roughly the entire /var/mobile folder. So when a restore from backup is done, Cydia’s (and other apps’) config files are put back. In theory, Apple could detect this (previously jailbroken state) when they plug in your device at the store to do diagnostics, but (at least 5 years ago) I’ve brought a few “restored from backup” devices in for service and they don’t say anything. I guess as long as it isn’t currently jailbroken, they don’t care.[c] [a]: /Applications contains apps that come with the device and can’t be removed (such as Settings, etc.); Cydia installs itself and any apps you install through it into this folder. OTOH, apps installed through the App Store go under /var/mobile/Containers. [b]: The reason being: pre-jailbreak, / is mounted read-only, but /var/mobile is read-write. So iOS works on the assumption that any app installed to /Applications can’t keep its config files with it, so they’re put in /var/mobile/Library. [c]: Simply hiding the icons of Cydia and apps wouldn’t be enough to convince them as jailbreaking involves disabling a few daemons (the biggest is the OTA update checker; they don’t work well with a jailbroken device), so Apple’s diagnostics would probably show that some daemons aren’t running (that normally would be).
AmericanChopper 6y ago
Permanently disabling the stop/start is something I’ve done to the last two new cars I brought immediately after purchase. I imagine that’s a pretty popular warranty-jeopardising modification.
- hyperdimension 6y ago
  Are you talking about the engine automatically shutting off when you come to a stop and starting again when you take your foot off the brake pedal? I recently replaced my starter motor ('09 though, so I definitely don't have the feature,) so I'd be wary of that, but don't they fit longer-durability starter motors in those cars? Actually, come to think of it, (please correct me if I'm wrong) they probably keep the fuel pump primed while 'on' but at a stop, but I'd be concerned about the lack of oil at engine start. I always was told to turn the key to on, wait for the ~2 seconds for the fuel pump to prime and after you start the engine, and let it run a bit before starting to drive. My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure.
  - jaxx75 6y ago
    Yes, the starters are designed differently. Engine oil really isn't going to have enough time to leave bearing surfaces and the valve train in any significant way. First start of an engine after hours of sitting is where lack of oil is a concern. Priming the fuel pump is for short crank time and start reliability, not reducing engine wear.
    - hyperdimension 6y ago
      That's good to know. You learn so many things by rote; rarely, it seems, do you learn the reasons behind them all. Thanks.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure. It's an attempt at squeezing the tiny last bit of fuel mileage out in the standardised tests, and they obviously don't care if it wears things out faster...
slipheen 6y ago
Under US federal law auto makers in particular aren't allowed to deny warranty coverage to a car due to aftermarket modifications unless they can prove that those specific modifications caused the problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
jaxx75 6y ago
The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. Does 'tuning' a Tesla actually do this? If it is designed to perform at this level after paying Tesla, how could they deny warranty coverage with Magnuson-Moss in mind?
- potatochup 6y ago
  The biggest concern I have with black boxes like this is how its going to interact with updates. Presumably they are intercepting messages on the CAN bus. The CAN bus is fairly easy to crack if you know what you are doing, but it also could change with the software version. The black box has probably hardcoded the message IDs that they are intercepting, but if the messages get reshuffled around in a software update it'll be sending out some data for some random other message which could have safety implications.
- jayd16 6y ago
  Do they bin batteries and parts? Is the price based on a calculation of failure rates and warranty service costs? Or is it just a cash grab? I'm not sure.
- userbinator 6y ago
  The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. It's not uncommon to find models with a wide range of power outputs but the exact same mechanical parts, and the only difference is the program in the ECU. Before electronics, the difference might be in a few small parts[1]. If you spend long enough staring at parts catalogs you can easily spot such things. [1] One of the examples that immediately comes to mind is with diesel engines --- you can change the fuel injectors to tune power over a very wide range, limited only by your acceptance of fuel consumption and emissions. All the load-bearing parts of the engine (block, rotating assembly, etc.) are exactly the same: http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx
TheRealPomax 6y ago
And these days, the smart ones offer in-house ECU services, which is basically literally this: you pay more, to unlock mot performance. Or you do it outside the dealership's control and your warranty for whatever your mod changes (but not the warranty in general) is void for as long as you use your unofficial modifications.

rbecker 6y ago

> your connected car knows when you've hacked it, and it might be logging that data to use against you in a future warranty claim. [..] Nobody except Tesla really knows the answer to this right now, but knowing that my car could potentially tattle on me to its mommy is a bit unnerving. It's almost like the car is a hostile entity, loyal to its manufacturer instead of its owner..

mtgx 6y ago
The fact that Tesla can use the car logs AGAINST drivers when an accident happens, but the owners/drivers themselves don't get access to the same data to defend themselves should have been clue #1 years ago.
- caspper69 6y ago
  This is why discovery exists, no?
  - rbecker 6y ago
    One shouldn't need a court order to get data logged by one's own car.
- patagurbon 6y ago
  I wonder, does the GDPR apply here?
TheChaplain 6y ago
Well imagine you download Te5lA-b00ster-5.zip from Pirate Bay and install it into the car. Next thing you know the autopilot goes haywire and kills you. Who do you think will get the blame?
- rbecker 6y ago
  If the logs were in a nice, user-readable form, tamper-evident, and the user was in control of if the car connected remotely to Tesla, and could examine what is sent, or was at least informed of it, you might have a point.

pratio 6y ago

This can also be useful in some cases right? - What if some external accessory or change was made without the owner's knowledge?. As cars become more software dependent, steps like these might become necessary. - Manufacturers obviously want to take their hands-off during warranty claims if the car has been tuned or modified. - The owner in the issue mentioned above hasn't had any issues while driving except a notification that wouldn't go away. As long as i can modify my car and drive it without a hassle, i would like my car to tell me what changes have been made to it.

wittyreference 6y ago
> - Manufacturers obviously want to take their hands-off during warranty claims if the car has been tuned or modified. And to some extent, rightly so. The mod in the featured article has a mode that disables traction control. I would not want to be responsible for the outcomes if that has bugs in it.
m463 6y ago
> - What if some external accessory or change was made without the owner's knowledge?. As cars become more software dependent, steps like these might become necessary. Yes, someone could tamper with your car, which would be bad. But honestly Tesla is the one who changes things without the owner's knowledge. Updates - when they give any description at all - describe bug fixes and upgrades. However look at the tesla forums and you'll find that tesla software updates are just as likely to downgrade your car. I can recall updates lowering the range, reducing regen, lowering performance and very very frequently breaking things that work fine. And lots of people were perfectly happy with older versions of the software and have declined updates -- only to have them forced on the car. That seems to be a good way to make an enemy.
CarelessExpert 6y ago
> This can also be useful in some cases right? These are basically the same arguments that are used to justify Apple's walled garden and refusal to support side-loading, and all the same objections apply. All we need to do is look at how John Deere is screwing over farmers to see why a walled garden approach to products is extremely dangerous for consumer rights. I just wish the government would step in and regulate away this behaviour, as it's clearly a market failure. I can't say I'm getting my hopes up...

murgindrag 6y ago

It feels like $40k is a lot of money to pay Tesla to license a car, at least so long as I can buy a car outright from its competitors for less than that. I'd rather have a car I own, all things being equal. All things being unequal too, actually. Tesla cars would need to be much better to compete, given the licensing versus ownership model. I imagine at some point, Tesla will switch to car-as-a-service models. I guess most companies already have those in the form of leases, but I don't lease cars.

zpeti 6y ago
All they are doing is voiding the warranty, so you're not exactly "leasing" the car. Change it all you want, but don't expect Tesla to fix your car once you've messed with it yourself. And don't expect to sue them when autopilot kills you, because it's not their responsibility any more.
- belval 6y ago
  That always seemed like fair game to me. If only we could have the one big warranty split into smaller warranties for each part of the car, so tampering one part of it doesn't void the entire warranty.
  - SifJar 6y ago
    That sounds nice in theory, but I imagine in practice it's a bit trickier - presumably there are plenty of cases in which modifying one part of the car could cause damage to another, unmodified part. How do you figure out if any seemingly unrelated modifications are responsible for the malfunction etc.?
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Except for a few edge cases at the margins those cascading failures are pretty obvious when they happen. Every other OEM has already had to confront this reality and every other OEM publishes upfitter guides for their vehicles so that the aftermarket knows what to do and what not to do. Every other OEM also lets the dealer network exercise most of the judgement regarding warranty and they mostly do a good enough job.

Tinyyy 6y ago

I wonder if Tesla will limit supercharger usage to unmodified cars.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
They do. Modified cars or those with a salvage title are blacklisted from Superchargers by VIN. It's their right of course, as it's their charging network.
- djaychela 6y ago
  It's worse than that, they also block fast charging at non-Tesla charging locations, which to me is an over stepping of the mark, abs punitive action against salvage vehicle owners.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Its Tesla's liability and reputation if a Tesla vehicle with questionable integrity burns at a DC fast charger. I don't think that's "worse", that's the deal if you own a Tesla vehicle (regardless of how you obtained ownership). Just takes one careless tinkerer to ruin the narrative for everyone. Tesla previously had a recertification program, where you could pay for a tech to inspect the HV battery and powertrain to confirm it's state supported fast DC charging, not sure if they're still offering it though.
    - hansvm 6y ago
      > Its Tesla's liability and reputation if a Tesla vehicle with questionable integrity burns at a DC fast charger. That same argument could be made for just about anything being sold -- the original owner could still exert control over your purchase because their reputation might be damaged if you weren't careful. You're not wrong that the court of public opinion can be vindictive, but I think that's by far the lesser evil compared with not actually owning the things you buy. We grant exceptions here and there (can't use your baseball bat to kill a person, usually), but none anywhere nearly as invasive as prohibiting any activity that might give a former owner bad PR. The fact that Tesla has an automated means of enforcement is a big part of why this is coming up at all. They don't have to wait to figure out what the courts say; they can use software to do what they want till they're explicitly forbidden.

capableweb 6y ago

Maybe slightly off-topic but in general, do people buy random electronics over the internet and connect it to their car? Feels like a overly easy way of hacking a massive amount of cars, by simply having them buy a thing you connect to your already IoT-ified car, and allow anyone to read and control your car. Seems like the detection feature from Tesla is meant to provide this, rather than preventing 3rd party mods. As I would never connect anything to my cars IT systems, I would happily receive a warning if the car did detect something like that.

kortex 6y ago
Sounds like a great way to put yourself out of the tuning business. Unless we are talking some Ocean's 11 style scheme where you make a tuner company just to get their exploit into cars, all to be turned on at once on the big day.
Balgair 6y ago
They aren't 'random' per se. Typically you'd find one online and look at the reviews and ask people on forums about it. The aftermarket car audience is very online, much like HN. Getting into it, again like with programming, requires a fair bit of knowledge/mistakes. But, you gain knowledge and get better over time. If the electronics screwup your OBC, you can just get a new one. If they screwup your wiring or blow your engine, well, you don't get into cars if you don't want oil all over your arms. Blowing things up and rebuilding engines is part of the 'fun'.

devit 6y ago

The fact that they sell the hack for $1500 is pretty ridiculous. Seems like there's a market for a reverse-engineered version of the hack, priced at slightly above the cost of materials (which I suspect to be around $50 at most).

dafoex 6y ago
Given the "nice try module" is 3D printed, I'm sure someone could just order a job lot from JLC PCB or PCB Way and make them at home to sell.
jayd16 6y ago
The way I look at it, they have some time to failure calculation for the normal and performance usage. That TTF calculation goes into the price of servicing the warranty and that goes into the price of the car. You're basically paying for the warranty extension and that doesn't seem that bad to me. Feels more like overclocking to me.
userbinator 6y ago
I think it's just what the market is willing to pay. Prices in that range are par for the course with (ICE car) ECU mods too.

markvdb 6y ago

If I'd ever buy a car, I'd rather not have antifeatures in it. I'd rather have the Lada/Zhiguli [0] of the future: - safe - simple - electric - cheap - mass produced - open hardware - public road certified The Dacia Spring Electric [1] might get close. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAZ-2107 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAZ-2107 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia_Spring

ironmagma 6y ago
A lot of us share that view, but sadly, there is no perfect car...
- Balgair 6y ago
  There is for me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_(first_generation...
  - iso8859-1 6y ago
    Can you still get new bodies for it, like you can with the MGB? Price list: http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm Article: https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/02/14/need-new-body-vintage-mini-5-speed-gearing-mgb/ https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/02/14/need-new-body-vin... EDIT: looks like yes: https://revologycars.com/ https://revologycars.com/
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    I can think of a few downsides, safety being one.
    - Balgair 6y ago
      Hey, you do you. For me, that car is perfection
starpilot 6y ago

grishka 6y ago

So what happens, exactly, if you buy a Tesla and never connect it to the internet?

slivanes 6y ago
I believe they have a built-in SIM and mobile connection for its own purposes.
- grishka 6y ago
  And if you remove that?
  - generaljargon 6y ago
    Presumably they can void your warrenty all the same since the car is no longer phoning home
    - potatochup 6y ago
      Teslas don't have to phone home to operate. They work just fine off-grid, and you can also opt-out of any data collection/phone home [1] if you want. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that the modification caused the damage (at least in the USA), so removing the sim and turning off wifi is unlikely to void any warranty [1] https://www.tesla.com/about/legal#choice-transparency https://www.tesla.com/about/legal#choice-transparency

Dylan16807 6y ago

> Others bring up the very valid point of right to repair—but does that also include right to modify? Yes.

natch 6y ago

The pioneers in any field always get attacked when they add safeguards. And then later when they catch up, the laggards add similar safeguards. Usually there are valid reasons beyond just the usual “protect profits” this gets portrayed as. Even if that’s part of it, it’s often more about protecting the brand and product safety. Autos are different from some products in that there are real safety issues if stuff is not done right.

argb 6y ago

These aftermarket hacks should definitely be legal, but don't expect Tesla to provide any more online services such as automatic firmware upgrades. These would have to be done manually by the owner now.