29 ms·

The SF Anti-Mask League of 1919

281 points by 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

mturmon 7y ago
See also this article from the LA Times, comparing the LA vs. SF reactions to the 1918-1919 pandemic: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-19/coronavirus-lessons-from-great-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-19/coronavi...
refurb 7y ago
This is a great example of "there is nothing new under the sun". People may feel we live in unique times, but yet again, not much has changed since 1919.
- jackyinger 7y ago
  Haha, well... we’re still just a bunch of Homo Sapiens. This is a great reminder of the inevitable tragedy of knowledge lost across generations. Could we as a species do better?
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  > not much has changed since 1919. The 1919 SF Chronicle was easier to read.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Since they didn't have Reddit as a source, they actually had to put some effort into stories!
    - take_a_breath 7y ago
      And people actually paid for it, too!!
- mturmon 7y ago
  True. All this has made me want to read a book-length treatment of the 1918-1919 pandemic. The lived experience of a fast moving global pandemic had completely receded from our own understanding until this came along.
  - seppin 7y ago
    I'm half way through "The Great Influenza - The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History" it's excellent.
- paypalcust83 7y ago
  The majority of average Americans don't read. History included. They just do whatever they "feel" like and are deeply anti-intellectual / Dunning-Kruger. Hence the flag-waving, open-carrying of AR15s, nationalistic, tribal, MAGA-meets-no-mask/-reopen protests in the middle of a pandemic that hasn't yet receded and will restart on the way back to 10k's of deaths as soon as reopened because only 0.5-5% have been exposed and there's no vaccine yet. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
  - JackFr 7y ago
    When one is tempted to invoke the Dunning-Kruger effect to dismiss those with whom they disagree, that is precisely when one should be most circumspect in their own opinions. It’s a silly look to say everyone has cognitive biases except me. It’s the nature of Dunning-Kruger that subjectively it gives you no information about how poorly you’ve estimated your own ability.
    - ncmncm 7y ago
      In other words, the majority of citations of the D-K effect are examples of it. (This one, possibly, included.)
    - eythian 7y ago
      I read an interview with one of Dunning and Kruger a while back where they made this exact point. It's always worth remembering.
icelancer 7y ago
Comparing the SF health officer from 1918-1919 to Dr. Fauci is a bit rough since Dr. Fauci was anti-mask and also said the risk of coronavirus was miniscule in mid-February. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-di...
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  From the same article: If that testing shows the virus has slipped into the country in places federal officials don't know about, "we've got a problem," Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told USA TODAY's Editorial Board Monday. So when the situation changed, his view also changed.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    He was also anti-mask, as I pointed out, as was the CDC/WHO despite a decade's worth of use by Asian countries who didn't wait on RCTs.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      It's going to require better citations than that to label Fauci "anti-mask." Your source possibly supports "ambivalently-mask," but even that would be debatable. His comments seem fair given the situation and knowledge at the time, as well as the political balance he was striking with his public comments.
      - greglindahl 7y ago
        "When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?" -- John Maynard Keynes
    - dnautics 7y ago
      Yeah because he knew that there was a supply crunch at the time and wanted them to go to first responders. Morever there is not solid evidence that mandatory masks are necessary, as Singapore hasn't mandated them, and amidst other social distancing procedures and testing regime, they have kept numbers relatively low.
mindslight 7y ago
The restless extrovert's outlook is super bizarro. I'm personally looking forward to wearing a mask long after this pandemic has passed, to defend my privacy against ubiquitous facial recognition. I want to live in a world where these things aren't legally mandated, but everyone does them because they're good ideas. Apparently that world is impossible. It's similar to the people that don't wear their seatbelt to somehow stick it to the government. Apparently their driving is so lame that they've never appreciated the seatbelt while cornering? Sigh.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > I want to live in a world where none of these things are legally mandated, but everyone does them because they're good ideas. Apparently that world is impossible. Helmet laws in the several US states are a good example, I grew up in SoCal, where its mandated for bikes/motorcycles, but more importantly spent a lot of time in 4 wheel motorsports and saw their efficacy on more occasions than I can count. I used to be the only one to wear one during canyon carving as well as track events. I didn't ride a motorcycle until I got to CO, where helmets are optional, and despite that I would never swing a leg over a bike without one. The only people I ever see ignore helmets are harley riding guys with bare skin exposed all over, often way older, as most of the sport bike community understand that gear is everything in even a low speed, low side if they've been in one. After a lowside myself with cheap gear, except my helmet as that was a $700 write off, due to a negligent driver and inexperience on my part (specifically: how not to panic towards that as it frequently occurs on the street) I learned the hard way how important 'dressing for the crash' really is and not just a helmet only priority. The only time I ever rode without a helmet was riding my motorcycle from one end of the parking lot to my storage unit (maybe 1/2 mile, if that) during my first incoming snap frost/blizzard and it felt so incredibly stupid at 10MPH in 1st gear feathering the throttle I'd never do it again. I'm not sure what serious lack of self preservation you must have to ever willingly ride at speed without one, but perhaps its not so bad to weed that out of the gene pool and not having it expedites the process?
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    As I was reading OP's article, another article (pay walled) showed up in the side feed detailing how my town back in SoCal is having, what apparently is becoming ubiquitous in the country, anti-quarantine protests today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHmDeqdRdLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHmDeqdRdLk I'm so glad I moved out for good this time, its sadly a pro military and Trump part of Southern Orange County that happens to have some of the most beautiful coast lines and best surfing on the mainland... I just looked into to it and it seems its also happening in Colorado Springs, which is also deeply pro Military and is dependent on its economy. Which is odd, because in the Northern part we have people calling the police to tell them about the influx of out of state plates that been seen recently.
mike_d 7y ago
A more readable version: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1251936242834563073.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1251936242834563073.html
- TACIXAT 7y ago
  Thanks! I wanted to share this with my dad and with the difficulty I had finding the "show thread" button on the Twitter mobile site I knew he would only see the first tweet then bounce.
  - Kiro 7y ago
    Twitter UI is a disaster.
    - bonestamp2 7y ago
      Yes, although in fairness to Twitter for this particular use case... publishing something of this length is not what Twitter was meant for.
      - jawns 7y ago
        That's the thing, though. We see these long, essay-like Twitter threads all the time because although it may not have been built with this use case in mind, people publish where they know the eyeballs are. And if the eyeballs are on Twitter, that's where people are going to publish, irrespective of how terrible the platform is for longer writing. I know the character limit is a part of Twitter's ethos, but given that it is now a place where important information of longer character lengths is published, and given that it's a nightmare to read (or write) a thread of two dozen tweets, I really wish they'd consider giving some sort of better-suited home for this kind of content. Maybe they leave tweets at the current character length, but introduce some new product where longer stuff can be posted.
        greggman3 7y ago
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
So what was the problem with the masks? The thread calls it "The dollar sign is exalted above the health sign" but why was this a money tradeoff? Due to the cost of the masks?
- javagram 7y ago
  Business leaders were opposed to the mask ordinance because they thought it would reduce the people shopping in the stores. Wearing the masks was seen as uncomfortable and so people didn’t want to do it.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Although I think it's worth noting that this blunts the analogy; they thought it would reduce the people shopping in the stores, because the stores were open and not shut by mandate.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    It's funny how logic operates. Dead customers come a lot less in stores. Masking is a little discomfort for prolonged "benefits" (morality quotes). Business type persons should know better about long term investment..
    - epistasis 7y ago
      But all too many (which doesn't mean a multitude), will not look past a hit, especially if they are running with out much of a safety net. I think of at meat processing plant in South Dakota that had a large outbreak, and why, when a plant was still able to run, management didn't take drastic measures to ensure that employees wouldn't get sick and bring about a full stoppage. Same thing is Halle I gotta at hospitals and other places too, all around the country.
    - Fricken 7y ago
      If Covid is ignored you might lose 3% of your business over the long run. Shutting down indefinitely to avoid Covid means you go bankrupt.
dnautics 7y ago
It feels like the lesson here is that enforcement with arrests is going to provoke a backlash, whereas convincing people it's good for them is a better strategy.
- DSingularity 7y ago
  Only if you assume people never change. I’m willing to bet people would respond differently today - in times where a record will severely impact your career potential.
  - scollet 7y ago
    This is not okay considering non-violent offense is heavily prosecuted, especially among minority communities. Please consider a more nuanced argument.
    - dsl 7y ago
      https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion
  - otterley 7y ago
    It’s not being charged as a felony.
- azernik 7y ago
  To me it seems the opposite - persuasion didn't get people to wear masks, and enforcement did.
  - dnautics 7y ago
    yes, that's because you're reading it the way the author wants you to. There are other ways to read the same set of facts.
    - azernik 7y ago
renewiltord 7y ago
It looks like a pretty good strategy is to allow people who believe this to go out and kill themselves. On the other hand, what if they’re right and no ones going to die over this? You could require that they pay into a hazard bond that pays out back to them if they don’t get sick.
- fred_is_fred 7y ago
  This isn't like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. I personally don't care if they want to go kill themselves, but these people are also at the grocery store, or walking in neighborhoods, or at the gas station -- infecting and possibly killing others.
  - sherincall 7y ago
    Even riding a motorcycle without a helmet has externalities - more severe injuries from accidents could raise insurance rates across the board, and these people take from the ER/ICU capacity that others could use. I guess you could have a policy of just letting them die if they get into an accident without a helmet, but that its own host of problems.
    - fred_is_fred 7y ago
      In fact not wearing a helmet might be cheaper - a quick death versus a lifetime of care.
- dgritsko 7y ago
  It doesn't just affect them. People who would otherwise not have been infected will likely contract the virus (and possibly due) due to increased community spread from those who do not respect public health guidelines.
- bsder 7y ago
  They unfortunately wind up taking up hospital beds from people who weren't stupid.
agumonkey 7y ago
someone on reddit found some disturbing astroturfing https://old.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/g3sw2l/the_user_udr_midnight_uncovers_a_massive/ https://old.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/g3sw2l/the_user_udr... lots of new facebook groups like pages asking for reopening, then retweeted by the president crowds are so weird
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  I worry that the modern definition of "astroturfing" is so broad that it can be applied to any kind of large-scale organizing. It shouldn't be surprising to discover that the anti-shutdown movements in various states have ties with each other and with anti-shutdown politicians.
  - baxtr 7y ago
    This and that they literally started over night. Since the lockdown is new I find this reasonable.
    - grey-area 7y ago
      The original link above is saying that there was a website for every state started at the same time by the same person (by looking at whois info): https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_cannot_believe_that_people_are/fnstpyl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_c... Many of these so-called grassroots movements are not spontaneous.
      - makomk 7y ago
        There was a claim going around that those were actually registered by someone who opposed this movement to stop supporters from registering the names. Which is, of course, the trouble with claims of "astroturfing" - anyone can spot a movement in its early moments and take actions like registering domain names.
  - takeda 7y ago
yumario 7y ago
Can we stop posting twitter treats?
- notacoward 7y ago
  No. I'm not a fan of the format either, but if that's the way that someone chooses to disseminate informative content then style concerns are insufficient reason to forego it. The bikeshed doesn't have to be blue.
bcoates 7y ago
Is there any reason to believe that gauze masks are even slightly effective against influenza? The flu can stay viable in air for hours, and the individual exhaled airborne particles are vastly smaller than the holes in gauze -- it's "breathable" (allows moisture droplets to pass) I suspect the mechanism of action is inconveniencing people into not leaving home at all, a no-pants order would probably have worked as well or better
- lliamander 7y ago
  I don't know about the flu. Covid-19 is supposed to be spread mainly through respiratory droplets which settle on surfaces fairly quickly and which can be blocked by masks.
  - woofie11 7y ago
    Well, I'd argue Covid-19 isn't supposed to infect us at all. I certainly didn't consent to Covid-19 coming into my body. And handwashing frequently is supposed to stop Covid-19 dead in its tracks. That's what our leaders told us. I think it's reasonable to say we don't understand Covid-19 completely, and that the information we do receive is often filtered. So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol.
    - lliamander 7y ago
      > So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol. Probably wise. I take the same approach.
- kitotik 7y ago
  According to this post, the data showed that it was effective. Placebo or coincidence?
- Mr_P 7y ago
  Masks are effective at stopping people from unintentionally infecting others. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-face-masks-guides-protection-personal-protective-equipment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-fac... "Even a simple mask is very effective at trapping droplets from your coughs and sneezes. A recent study published in Nature from the University of Hong Kong and the University of Maryland asked 111 people, infected with various viral illnesses (influenza, rhinovirus and a more-mild coronavirus), to exhale into a giant funnel. Sometimes their noses and mouths weren’t covered; other times they used a simple, not-particularly-well-fitted mask. Without the masks, the infected people exhaled contagious droplets and aerosols, tiny particles that linger in the air, about 30 percent of the time they were tested. When the infected patients wore a mask, it blocked nearly 100 percent of viral droplets and some of the aerosol particles."
accountinhn 7y ago
If anyone is interested here is report published in 2007 by St.louis Federal Reserve about the 1918 Flu pandemic. https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-development/research-reports/pandemic_flu_report.pdf https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-deve...
trhway 7y ago
>On Jan 17, the day the masking ordinance went into effect, the # of new cases/deaths declined, the first decline in quite some time. This continued until the epidemic faded. same-day effect, especially on the number of deaths, of the masks? To me it sounds like it peaked and started to decline before any effects from the masks as the masks effect on the death number would take a few days at least. I mean i'm not against the masks, i do think they have positive effect, it is just in that case it seems that the mask ordinance came too late. It was already something like 2 months of the raging second wave.
- hilbertseries 7y ago
  Sounds like the ordinance was announced before hand and then was going to be required on that day. So people likely began wearing them more before that day.
marcell 7y ago
Early 1900's were also the heyday of eugenics. The author above says civil libertarians were worried about a slippery slope, where mask laws could lead to forced vaccines "or any experiment or indignity." I think anti-mask concern is more interesting in that context.
nitwit005 7y ago
I find the conclusion that the masks helped a little puzzling. I'm sure it indeed slowed the rate of infection, but what they ultimately wanted to happen was fewer total people getting sick. With constant travel through SF, slowing the infection doesn't seem like it should produce that result, just spread it out over more time.
strategarius 7y ago
We have huge fines here in South-East Asia, if you leave home without a mask. Even if probability of decrease transmitting 10%, on 1 million cases it's 100 thousand people.
- scollet 7y ago
  Are the fines more of a signal (i.e. fines for jaywalking) or are they more cut in stone and expecting recuperation?
teekert 7y ago
Pretty confusing that the first tweet starts with 2018, should be 1918 I guess. Man I hate platforms that don't allow editing ones sentences, like Whatsapp. So often I find mistake, very often the last word that was autocorrected between the time I typed it and hit enter and couldn't stop my finger from going down on that send key anymore.
js8 7y ago
Can somebody please explain this expression: "I'm not kidding I went HAM researching this"
- oblio 7y ago
  https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_ham https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_ham
Stranger43 7y ago
The problem here is that when you start passing laws and fines on people not for causing damage to other but "for their own good" that are essentially violating core principles of modern democracy(as in the right to assembly, or conduct commerce), the state are taking on the persona of an "benevolent dictatorship" which are bound to drive some people towards contrarianism. The measures taken might be completely right from an medical science perspective but we have moved away from a system where an enlightened monarch or central committee makes decisions on behaf of the ignorant people because history have shown that such systems always devolve into conspiracies against the many by the powerful few, so we cannot respond to every minor crisis by having the government adopt the tactics and language of an benevolent dictatorship and must govern by consent, ie it's the scientists job to make the public understand the risks/benefits not dictate solutions.
- toyg 7y ago
  Democracy is wonderful and all but it's simply too slow to use it for absolutely everything. Plus, I would argue that, when it comes to highly-specialized fields like virology, the "ignorant public" does still exist - Boris Johnson just demonstrated that even the best-educated in the world can be incredibly ignorant in this or that area of science.
  - tom-thistime 7y ago
    We have democracy. The OP seems to be arguing against governments and laws irrespective of democracy.
    - Stranger43 7y ago
      Do we have fundamental civil right doing this crisis? Go read any constitution of a democratic state, they all contain protection of activities that is being restricted as a part of the corona containment measures, and in many cases without any legislative process let alone that needed to change an constitution. Representative Democracy always contains an explicit contract on where the governments mandate to regulate ends, which is often as important to the freedom of it's public then the mere presence of an vote for representatives.
EGreg 7y ago
Masks could have prevented the quarantines, and will be needed again when they end. The quarantines are a last resort, after the failure of public policy and non-medical-interventions to contain the virus. I made a video which shows that masks are the answer, there is no shortage, and that our government leaders were wrong in telling us not to wear them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppiPaYI-x4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppiPaYI-x4E
- woofie11 7y ago
  You should consider making a short article instead. No one will watch 30 minutes.
alex_young 7y ago
This is not a civil rights thing. This is a public health thing. Being opposed to keeping crowds off of beaches and people from infecting one another in restaurants is akin to advocating against vaccinations or seatbelt use. Right now we are in the middle of a flaming inferno and there is a vital role for our democratically elected government to play in mandating mask use and other measures. This is very much a war like moment and we should unify in our resolve to defeat our shared enemy.

281 points by 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

See also this article from the LA Times, comparing the LA vs. SF reactions to the 1918-1919 pandemic: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-19/coronavirus-lessons-from-great-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-04-19/coronavi...

refurb 7y ago

This is a great example of "there is nothing new under the sun". People may feel we live in unique times, but yet again, not much has changed since 1919.

jackyinger 7y ago
Haha, well... we’re still just a bunch of Homo Sapiens. This is a great reminder of the inevitable tragedy of knowledge lost across generations. Could we as a species do better?
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
> not much has changed since 1919. The 1919 SF Chronicle was easier to read.
- refurb 7y ago
  Since they didn't have Reddit as a source, they actually had to put some effort into stories!
  - take_a_breath 7y ago
    And people actually paid for it, too!!
mturmon 7y ago
True. All this has made me want to read a book-length treatment of the 1918-1919 pandemic. The lived experience of a fast moving global pandemic had completely receded from our own understanding until this came along.
- seppin 7y ago
  I'm half way through "The Great Influenza - The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History" it's excellent.
paypalcust83 7y ago
The majority of average Americans don't read. History included. They just do whatever they "feel" like and are deeply anti-intellectual / Dunning-Kruger. Hence the flag-waving, open-carrying of AR15s, nationalistic, tribal, MAGA-meets-no-mask/-reopen protests in the middle of a pandemic that hasn't yet receded and will restart on the way back to 10k's of deaths as soon as reopened because only 0.5-5% have been exposed and there's no vaccine yet. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
- JackFr 7y ago
  When one is tempted to invoke the Dunning-Kruger effect to dismiss those with whom they disagree, that is precisely when one should be most circumspect in their own opinions. It’s a silly look to say everyone has cognitive biases except me. It’s the nature of Dunning-Kruger that subjectively it gives you no information about how poorly you’ve estimated your own ability.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    In other words, the majority of citations of the D-K effect are examples of it. (This one, possibly, included.)
  - eythian 7y ago
    I read an interview with one of Dunning and Kruger a while back where they made this exact point. It's always worth remembering.

icelancer 7y ago

Comparing the SF health officer from 1918-1919 to Dr. Fauci is a bit rough since Dr. Fauci was anti-mask and also said the risk of coronavirus was miniscule in mid-February. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-di...

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
From the same article: If that testing shows the virus has slipped into the country in places federal officials don't know about, "we've got a problem," Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told USA TODAY's Editorial Board Monday. So when the situation changed, his view also changed.
- icelancer 7y ago
  He was also anti-mask, as I pointed out, as was the CDC/WHO despite a decade's worth of use by Asian countries who didn't wait on RCTs.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    It's going to require better citations than that to label Fauci "anti-mask." Your source possibly supports "ambivalently-mask," but even that would be debatable. His comments seem fair given the situation and knowledge at the time, as well as the political balance he was striking with his public comments.
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      "When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?" -- John Maynard Keynes
  - dnautics 7y ago
    Yeah because he knew that there was a supply crunch at the time and wanted them to go to first responders. Morever there is not solid evidence that mandatory masks are necessary, as Singapore hasn't mandated them, and amidst other social distancing procedures and testing regime, they have kept numbers relatively low.

mindslight 7y ago

The restless extrovert's outlook is super bizarro. I'm personally looking forward to wearing a mask long after this pandemic has passed, to defend my privacy against ubiquitous facial recognition. I want to live in a world where these things aren't legally mandated, but everyone does them because they're good ideas. Apparently that world is impossible. It's similar to the people that don't wear their seatbelt to somehow stick it to the government. Apparently their driving is so lame that they've never appreciated the seatbelt while cornering? Sigh.

Melting_Harps 7y ago
> I want to live in a world where none of these things are legally mandated, but everyone does them because they're good ideas. Apparently that world is impossible. Helmet laws in the several US states are a good example, I grew up in SoCal, where its mandated for bikes/motorcycles, but more importantly spent a lot of time in 4 wheel motorsports and saw their efficacy on more occasions than I can count. I used to be the only one to wear one during canyon carving as well as track events. I didn't ride a motorcycle until I got to CO, where helmets are optional, and despite that I would never swing a leg over a bike without one. The only people I ever see ignore helmets are harley riding guys with bare skin exposed all over, often way older, as most of the sport bike community understand that gear is everything in even a low speed, low side if they've been in one. After a lowside myself with cheap gear, except my helmet as that was a $700 write off, due to a negligent driver and inexperience on my part (specifically: how not to panic towards that as it frequently occurs on the street) I learned the hard way how important 'dressing for the crash' really is and not just a helmet only priority. The only time I ever rode without a helmet was riding my motorcycle from one end of the parking lot to my storage unit (maybe 1/2 mile, if that) during my first incoming snap frost/blizzard and it felt so incredibly stupid at 10MPH in 1st gear feathering the throttle I'd never do it again. I'm not sure what serious lack of self preservation you must have to ever willingly ride at speed without one, but perhaps its not so bad to weed that out of the gene pool and not having it expedites the process?
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  As I was reading OP's article, another article (pay walled) showed up in the side feed detailing how my town back in SoCal is having, what apparently is becoming ubiquitous in the country, anti-quarantine protests today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHmDeqdRdLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHmDeqdRdLk I'm so glad I moved out for good this time, its sadly a pro military and Trump part of Southern Orange County that happens to have some of the most beautiful coast lines and best surfing on the mainland... I just looked into to it and it seems its also happening in Colorado Springs, which is also deeply pro Military and is dependent on its economy. Which is odd, because in the Northern part we have people calling the police to tell them about the influx of out of state plates that been seen recently.

mike_d 7y ago

A more readable version: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1251936242834563073.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1251936242834563073.html

TACIXAT 7y ago
Thanks! I wanted to share this with my dad and with the difficulty I had finding the "show thread" button on the Twitter mobile site I knew he would only see the first tweet then bounce.
- Kiro 7y ago
  Twitter UI is a disaster.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    Yes, although in fairness to Twitter for this particular use case... publishing something of this length is not what Twitter was meant for.
    - jawns 7y ago
      That's the thing, though. We see these long, essay-like Twitter threads all the time because although it may not have been built with this use case in mind, people publish where they know the eyeballs are. And if the eyeballs are on Twitter, that's where people are going to publish, irrespective of how terrible the platform is for longer writing. I know the character limit is a part of Twitter's ethos, but given that it is now a place where important information of longer character lengths is published, and given that it's a nightmare to read (or write) a thread of two dozen tweets, I really wish they'd consider giving some sort of better-suited home for this kind of content. Maybe they leave tweets at the current character length, but introduce some new product where longer stuff can be posted.
      - greggman3 7y ago

tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago

So what was the problem with the masks? The thread calls it "The dollar sign is exalted above the health sign" but why was this a money tradeoff? Due to the cost of the masks?

javagram 7y ago
Business leaders were opposed to the mask ordinance because they thought it would reduce the people shopping in the stores. Wearing the masks was seen as uncomfortable and so people didn’t want to do it.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Although I think it's worth noting that this blunts the analogy; they thought it would reduce the people shopping in the stores, because the stores were open and not shut by mandate.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  It's funny how logic operates. Dead customers come a lot less in stores. Masking is a little discomfort for prolonged "benefits" (morality quotes). Business type persons should know better about long term investment..
  - epistasis 7y ago
    But all too many (which doesn't mean a multitude), will not look past a hit, especially if they are running with out much of a safety net. I think of at meat processing plant in South Dakota that had a large outbreak, and why, when a plant was still able to run, management didn't take drastic measures to ensure that employees wouldn't get sick and bring about a full stoppage. Same thing is Halle I gotta at hospitals and other places too, all around the country.
  - Fricken 7y ago
    If Covid is ignored you might lose 3% of your business over the long run. Shutting down indefinitely to avoid Covid means you go bankrupt.

dnautics 7y ago

It feels like the lesson here is that enforcement with arrests is going to provoke a backlash, whereas convincing people it's good for them is a better strategy.

DSingularity 7y ago
Only if you assume people never change. I’m willing to bet people would respond differently today - in times where a record will severely impact your career potential.
- scollet 7y ago
  This is not okay considering non-violent offense is heavily prosecuted, especially among minority communities. Please consider a more nuanced argument.
  - dsl 7y ago
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion
- otterley 7y ago
  It’s not being charged as a felony.
azernik 7y ago
To me it seems the opposite - persuasion didn't get people to wear masks, and enforcement did.
- dnautics 7y ago
  yes, that's because you're reading it the way the author wants you to. There are other ways to read the same set of facts.
  - azernik 7y ago

renewiltord 7y ago

It looks like a pretty good strategy is to allow people who believe this to go out and kill themselves. On the other hand, what if they’re right and no ones going to die over this? You could require that they pay into a hazard bond that pays out back to them if they don’t get sick.

fred_is_fred 7y ago
This isn't like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. I personally don't care if they want to go kill themselves, but these people are also at the grocery store, or walking in neighborhoods, or at the gas station -- infecting and possibly killing others.
- sherincall 7y ago
  Even riding a motorcycle without a helmet has externalities - more severe injuries from accidents could raise insurance rates across the board, and these people take from the ER/ICU capacity that others could use. I guess you could have a policy of just letting them die if they get into an accident without a helmet, but that its own host of problems.
  - fred_is_fred 7y ago
    In fact not wearing a helmet might be cheaper - a quick death versus a lifetime of care.
dgritsko 7y ago
It doesn't just affect them. People who would otherwise not have been infected will likely contract the virus (and possibly due) due to increased community spread from those who do not respect public health guidelines.
bsder 7y ago
They unfortunately wind up taking up hospital beds from people who weren't stupid.

agumonkey 7y ago

someone on reddit found some disturbing astroturfing https://old.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/g3sw2l/the_user_udr_midnight_uncovers_a_massive/ https://old.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/g3sw2l/the_user_udr... lots of new facebook groups like pages asking for reopening, then retweeted by the president crowds are so weird

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
I worry that the modern definition of "astroturfing" is so broad that it can be applied to any kind of large-scale organizing. It shouldn't be surprising to discover that the anti-shutdown movements in various states have ties with each other and with anti-shutdown politicians.
- baxtr 7y ago
  This and that they literally started over night. Since the lockdown is new I find this reasonable.
  - grey-area 7y ago
    The original link above is saying that there was a website for every state started at the same time by the same person (by looking at whois info): https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_cannot_believe_that_people_are/fnstpyl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_c... Many of these so-called grassroots movements are not spontaneous.
    - makomk 7y ago
      There was a claim going around that those were actually registered by someone who opposed this movement to stop supporters from registering the names. Which is, of course, the trouble with claims of "astroturfing" - anyone can spot a movement in its early moments and take actions like registering domain names.
- takeda 7y ago

yumario 7y ago

Can we stop posting twitter treats?

notacoward 7y ago
No. I'm not a fan of the format either, but if that's the way that someone chooses to disseminate informative content then style concerns are insufficient reason to forego it. The bikeshed doesn't have to be blue.

bcoates 7y ago

Is there any reason to believe that gauze masks are even slightly effective against influenza? The flu can stay viable in air for hours, and the individual exhaled airborne particles are vastly smaller than the holes in gauze -- it's "breathable" (allows moisture droplets to pass) I suspect the mechanism of action is inconveniencing people into not leaving home at all, a no-pants order would probably have worked as well or better

lliamander 7y ago
I don't know about the flu. Covid-19 is supposed to be spread mainly through respiratory droplets which settle on surfaces fairly quickly and which can be blocked by masks.
- woofie11 7y ago
  Well, I'd argue Covid-19 isn't supposed to infect us at all. I certainly didn't consent to Covid-19 coming into my body. And handwashing frequently is supposed to stop Covid-19 dead in its tracks. That's what our leaders told us. I think it's reasonable to say we don't understand Covid-19 completely, and that the information we do receive is often filtered. So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol.
  - lliamander 7y ago
    > So for now, I am taking basic precautions against all-of-the-above, until we have hard data to the contrary: contact, large droplets, and aerosol. Probably wise. I take the same approach.
kitotik 7y ago
According to this post, the data showed that it was effective. Placebo or coincidence?
Mr_P 7y ago
Masks are effective at stopping people from unintentionally infecting others. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-face-masks-guides-protection-personal-protective-equipment.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/well/live/coronavirus-fac... "Even a simple mask is very effective at trapping droplets from your coughs and sneezes. A recent study published in Nature from the University of Hong Kong and the University of Maryland asked 111 people, infected with various viral illnesses (influenza, rhinovirus and a more-mild coronavirus), to exhale into a giant funnel. Sometimes their noses and mouths weren’t covered; other times they used a simple, not-particularly-well-fitted mask. Without the masks, the infected people exhaled contagious droplets and aerosols, tiny particles that linger in the air, about 30 percent of the time they were tested. When the infected patients wore a mask, it blocked nearly 100 percent of viral droplets and some of the aerosol particles."

accountinhn 7y ago

If anyone is interested here is report published in 2007 by St.louis Federal Reserve about the 1918 Flu pandemic. https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-development/research-reports/pandemic_flu_report.pdf https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-deve...

trhway 7y ago

>On Jan 17, the day the masking ordinance went into effect, the # of new cases/deaths declined, the first decline in quite some time. This continued until the epidemic faded. same-day effect, especially on the number of deaths, of the masks? To me it sounds like it peaked and started to decline before any effects from the masks as the masks effect on the death number would take a few days at least. I mean i'm not against the masks, i do think they have positive effect, it is just in that case it seems that the mask ordinance came too late. It was already something like 2 months of the raging second wave.

hilbertseries 7y ago
Sounds like the ordinance was announced before hand and then was going to be required on that day. So people likely began wearing them more before that day.

marcell 7y ago

Early 1900's were also the heyday of eugenics. The author above says civil libertarians were worried about a slippery slope, where mask laws could lead to forced vaccines "or any experiment or indignity." I think anti-mask concern is more interesting in that context.

nitwit005 7y ago

I find the conclusion that the masks helped a little puzzling. I'm sure it indeed slowed the rate of infection, but what they ultimately wanted to happen was fewer total people getting sick. With constant travel through SF, slowing the infection doesn't seem like it should produce that result, just spread it out over more time.

strategarius 7y ago

We have huge fines here in South-East Asia, if you leave home without a mask. Even if probability of decrease transmitting 10%, on 1 million cases it's 100 thousand people.

scollet 7y ago
Are the fines more of a signal (i.e. fines for jaywalking) or are they more cut in stone and expecting recuperation?

teekert 7y ago

Pretty confusing that the first tweet starts with 2018, should be 1918 I guess. Man I hate platforms that don't allow editing ones sentences, like Whatsapp. So often I find mistake, very often the last word that was autocorrected between the time I typed it and hit enter and couldn't stop my finger from going down on that send key anymore.

js8 7y ago

Can somebody please explain this expression: "I'm not kidding I went HAM researching this"

oblio 7y ago
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_ham https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_ham

Stranger43 7y ago

The problem here is that when you start passing laws and fines on people not for causing damage to other but "for their own good" that are essentially violating core principles of modern democracy(as in the right to assembly, or conduct commerce), the state are taking on the persona of an "benevolent dictatorship" which are bound to drive some people towards contrarianism. The measures taken might be completely right from an medical science perspective but we have moved away from a system where an enlightened monarch or central committee makes decisions on behaf of the ignorant people because history have shown that such systems always devolve into conspiracies against the many by the powerful few, so we cannot respond to every minor crisis by having the government adopt the tactics and language of an benevolent dictatorship and must govern by consent, ie it's the scientists job to make the public understand the risks/benefits not dictate solutions.

toyg 7y ago
Democracy is wonderful and all but it's simply too slow to use it for absolutely everything. Plus, I would argue that, when it comes to highly-specialized fields like virology, the "ignorant public" does still exist - Boris Johnson just demonstrated that even the best-educated in the world can be incredibly ignorant in this or that area of science.
- tom-thistime 7y ago
  We have democracy. The OP seems to be arguing against governments and laws irrespective of democracy.
  - Stranger43 7y ago
    Do we have fundamental civil right doing this crisis? Go read any constitution of a democratic state, they all contain protection of activities that is being restricted as a part of the corona containment measures, and in many cases without any legislative process let alone that needed to change an constitution. Representative Democracy always contains an explicit contract on where the governments mandate to regulate ends, which is often as important to the freedom of it's public then the mere presence of an vote for representatives.

EGreg 7y ago

Masks could have prevented the quarantines, and will be needed again when they end. The quarantines are a last resort, after the failure of public policy and non-medical-interventions to contain the virus. I made a video which shows that masks are the answer, there is no shortage, and that our government leaders were wrong in telling us not to wear them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppiPaYI-x4E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppiPaYI-x4E

woofie11 7y ago
You should consider making a short article instead. No one will watch 30 minutes.

alex_young 7y ago

This is not a civil rights thing. This is a public health thing. Being opposed to keeping crowds off of beaches and people from infecting one another in restaurants is akin to advocating against vaccinations or seatbelt use. Right now we are in the middle of a flaming inferno and there is a vital role for our democratically elected government to play in mandating mask use and other measures. This is very much a war like moment and we should unify in our resolve to defeat our shared enemy.