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Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

607 points by Corrado 7y ago

oneplane 7y ago
Odd, this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Besides bricks (well, is it a brick if you can recover?) we have seen post-update BSOD's, data loss, browsers going bad, settings getting reset on various operating systems of the big vendors out there. I know that it isn't like software 'used to be perfect' but this type of defect feels bigger than it used to be.
- manaskarekar 7y ago
  Move fast, break things! On a serious note, possibly because things are much too capable and complex than they used to be, combined with tight release cycles.
  - TAForObvReasons 7y ago
    Also more software systems enable "automatic updates". Whereas in the past only those that chose to upgrade were affected, now everyone is affected except for those that chose not to enable automatic updates.
- kbumsik 7y ago
  I guess two reasons: 1. The OS update policies became more "agile". Both Windows and macOS starts to update the OS more often than ever. macOS moved to an annual update from biannual, Windows 10 switched to a subscription-like model. 2. They laid off the testing team and stopped testing on actual PCs in favor of VMs. [1] It makes sense considering the broken updates are often more low-level bugs that cannot be caught by VMs. [1]: https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-problems-are-ruining-microsofts-reputation-and-the-damage-cant-be-underestimated https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-problems-are-ruini...
  - Florin_Andrei 7y ago
    > They laid off the testing team Must be good for the bottom line. The cost is absorbed by the unlucky users.
    - chaos_a 7y ago
      It's another case of focusing on the short term to save money. In the long term it damages their reputation and some frustrated businesses/users might start to consider moving away from their products if a viable alternative exists.
      - the_other 7y ago
        Unfortunately there’s only two players in this game (I doubt mass consumption of linux any time soon). So, if they both suck, neither loses the reputation game.
      - Florin_Andrei 7y ago
        If everyone does the same, then reputation doesn't matter as much.
- userbinator 7y ago
  I think this is the saddest part: was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March The "fix some bugs, add some new ones" trend has certainly gotten more common within the past few years. I still remember when the official advice was not to install updates unless you were experiencing the issues it was to fix, but that wasn't really applicable to security fixes, and now official advice seems to be "always install" regardless of security or indeed usefulness.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    I think it's always been there. I remember reading a paper that said for every two bugs fixed a new one is created.
- nrp 7y ago
  I don't think it's more prevalent. I think it's more notable precisely because we've gotten so used to our devices and data being stable. Don't forget that in the past it was pretty much expected you'd lose or break something when upgrading your OS, and that you could pretty much count on physical hard drive failure resulting in data loss at some point in the life of your PC. BSOD's especially were almost certainly more prevalent in the bad old days of Windows. Looking just at Mac, don't forget about when PRAM resets were part of the normal debug flow.
- sumedh 7y ago
  > this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Isnt that because lof of companies are eliminating QA people and expect the devs to do the testing.
- flyinghamster 7y ago
  I've experienced it myself with one of the Android apps i use (a VoIP client). The latest update killed my ability to call out through my office PBX, and I had to fish the old version out of one of my backups, since the Play Store oh-so-helpfully doesn't let you install older versions of an app.
ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
It's not "bricked" if you can fix it in Recovery Mode. Still bad that it's happening, but the term "bricked" is thrown around so flippantly these days. If a piece of tech is bricked, it's not recoverable at all.
- bromuro 7y ago
  English is not my native language and this is the first time I hear about this “bricked” expression. What does it mean?
  - DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
    It means you've rendered your device functionally equivalent to a brick, i.e., it's a hunk of inanimate metal that will never again be useful.
  - dagmx 7y ago
    It means that something made your device non functional, so it’s almost like your device is a brick or useless heavy load
  - plussed_reader 7y ago
    Some manner of update or action attenuates the processing power of the device to that of a clay brick.
  - throwaway15392 7y ago
    It’s not a real word, it’s more of a slang word It just changes the noun brick into a verb. So if a laptop has bricked, it means it’s like a brick now (useless)
    - eru 7y ago
      Slang words are real. (And so is "ain't", and most words you can make up on the spot.)
      - 7y ago
bluedino 7y ago
Are people not using auto-update?
- ravenstine 7y ago
  Why would I want to wake up in the morning to find my laptop not working? This issue is exactly why I only occasionally install updates, and if I do I wait a while for the canaries to leave the coal mine. I've been a user of macOS, distros of Linux, and Windows for years, and in every one of them there was the inevitable update that made the OS unusable. It happens rarely but, when it does, it's a miserable experience.
  - wuunderbar 7y ago
    Interested in hearing about a Linux update that made the system unusable.
    - therealx 7y ago
      Are you kidding? I've had config files overwritten, x11/wayland/whatever just break after an update, wirelesss/power drivers just...change, sometimes to the point of having to recover it from a mono-screen tty, or updates fuck up the fs or something else that requires me to hit up single user mode.
      - virtualwhys 7y ago
        Have been on Fedora for 10 years; the only thing that "reliably" breaks is the proprietary Nvidia driver. Otherwise Linux is pretty damn rock solid. These days "it just works" applies to Linux more than any other OS. And with the new Nvidia-less Dell Precision 5400 the system runs cool and quiet to boot. Linux isn't what it used to be...
      - ravenstine 7y ago
        Yeah, I got a black screen on boot on more than one occasion because of some change to either X11 or its config after updating. It's probably a rite of passage for a seasoned Linux user to figure out how to undo the damage to their `/etc/x11/xorg.conf`. (then again, I stopped using linux about 4 years ago, so maybe that's changed)
msie 7y ago
This really sucks. Can’t use the new Xcode without Catalina but this release sounds so buggy.
- cutler 7y ago
  Yes, there's no way Catalina is ever going on any of my machines. Apple has hit a real low-point with this release.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    Just an anecdote but it's been rock solid for me and fixed a number of issues I had with Mojave.
    - dddddaviddddd 7y ago
      Which issues?
      - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
        Mostly to do with recognising an external monitor.
        gmac 7y ago
        Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve recently had to switch to using the HDMI instead of the Mini DisplayPort to connect a 4K monitor to my mid-2014 MBP, since it wasn’t being recognised (which also means dropping from 60fps to 30). Wasn’t sure if this was related to an update. Are your symptoms similar?
    - aganame 7y ago
      Ditto. My worst problem has been that some games on Steam claim they don’t work on Mojave... but they do.
      - 7y ago
rammy1234 7y ago
Timing of this cannot be more wrong. WFH and no store opened will make this more worse.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  I'm actually a little surprised they're pushing out updates at all right now. They have to be aware of the risk.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Supplemental updates usually fix serious bugs or ones that impact a lot of people. They're fairly rare.
    - danieldk 7y ago
      Indeed. The problem was 10.15.4 to start with. One reason to roll out the supplemental update was because 10.15.4 broke Facetime compatibility with older iOS and macOS versions (which is particularly bad in the current crisis). Maybe they shouldn't have released 10.15.4 right now, but instead only the security fixes in this release. But they had to push out that release to support the new MacBook Air. Another problem with such reports is that it is hard to get an idea of how widespread this problem is. And whether the problem (perhaps) already occurred with previous Catalina updates, but is now picked up more.
rukshn 7y ago
I just installed the update yesterday and now I'm seeing this. Mine is working so far
diebeforei485 7y ago
I think companies are pushing updates way too aggressively to those who have auto update on. Is there some reason why phased release isn't more common among OS/firmware updates? Auto update does not have to mean "update my device the day new versions are out". Edit: Is this related to public disclosure of security bugs? If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a week after the update is available. This would allow for phased rollouts.
- cesarb 7y ago
  > If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a week after the update is available. The update being available is public disclosure! For an experienced reverse engineer, comparing the files before and after the update is usually enough to pinpoint the security issue.
  - therein 7y ago
    I can't seem to be able to find a link to it right now but there was even this one project/website that dumped the bindiffs for each Windows Update and their disassembly.
  - ivan_gammel 7y ago
    No, it is not necessarily so. First phase of rollout can happen to the users and businesses under NDA.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Betas are partly NDA'd to some extent, but this has historically been enforced quite poorly.
  - diebeforei485 7y ago
    Don't most iOS bugs these days require multiple security exploits in order to work? I'm not sure it's always that simple to find a reliable exploit just based on what code has changed (because lots of code has changed). If there is an obvious to find, easily-exploitable bug, the update could be pushed to everyone (the way updates are pushed today). There is a balance to strike here. If issues with auto update cause enough people turn auto update off, I'm not sure it's helping security. Finally - Apple already has a beta programs including public betas. Are those binaries not already used to find exploits? Essentially, I'm not convinced a phased update (with public security disclosure slightly later) would lead to worse security than we have today.
vondur 7y ago
Well, not bricked you just lose your data. That data that most people don't have backups for.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Where does it say that you lose your data?
  - LilBytes 7y ago
    I was hit by this bug, my entire unit was fucked and I had to use Recovery over the Internet to reinstall a fresh OS on my 2019 MacBook Pro. Nearly everything on my Mac was dot sourced, on Git or using my local NAS' TimeMachine share. All the same, all my data on the Mac was still lost and had to be restored using backup.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Reinstalling the OS shouldn't wipe your data partition…
      - harikb 7y ago
        At least in the default install, it is all one partition. Moreover, if you had disk encryption or something, getting the recovery keys would be a risk even you had followed all the right steps. Granted, none of these are good excuses for not doing TM backups since those are so easy. But just saying people could lose data and not have an easy way to recover it.
        diebeforei485 7y ago
        This is not true in Catalina. 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650
        harikb 7y ago
saagarjha 7y ago
Is this something especially prevalent in this update? Pretty much every single one borks someone's Mac, so I'm curious if there's something new: this article seemed light on details.
bangonkeyboard 7y ago
I thought this would be about the 10.15.4 update, which had known problems, but instead it's the supplemental hotfix that was supposed to address them: "This supplemental update for macOS 10.15.4 Catalina, released Wednesday (April 8), was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March."
t0ughcritic 7y ago
I thought it was just me!
cutler 7y ago
Well, that's it for Catalina then. Although I really want full Xcode 11.4/Swift UI/Swift 5.2 and my MacBook Pro a Catalina upgrade is just too much of a risk. On top of all the previous Catalina woes Apple should be hanging their heads in shame.
- andrekandre 7y ago
  > Xcode 11.4 your probably not missing much, there are some serious regressings in that release, for example [0] [0] https://forums.swift.org/t/swift-5-2-struct-property-wrapper-didset-defect/34403/3 https://forums.swift.org/t/swift-5-2-struct-property-wrapper... (for me, cant make release builds because the compiler crashes... sigh...)
  - trevyn 7y ago
    You’re missing the ability to connect to and debug on iOS 13.4 devices, I believe: https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/130988 https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/130988 So now I’m stuck on 10.14.6 and iOS 13.3.1, one of which is not getting security updates. Really hoping Fuschia or someone steps up and displaces Apple.
    - cageface 7y ago
      My stress level has gone down dramatically since I gave up iOS development and went back to the web. I think it’s a better career move long term too.
    - shimfish 7y ago
      I managed to get round this by copying Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/13.4 from the latest Xcode.xib into my installed Xcode package. I can now debug 13.4 devices on Xcode 11.3.
    - apple4ever 7y ago
      What??? Xcode 11.4 requires Catalina now?? That’s nuts.
d99kris 7y ago
I have a MacBook 12" 2017 and have not encountered any serious issue with 10.15.4 supplemental update, yet.. I do however note that when adjusting volume in the status bar the UI dragbar position is very jumpy, which gives a rather unpolished impression.
- boardwaalk 7y ago
  I haven't had any issues either, 2017 MBP. Volume slider acts normally, too.
- davidweir 7y ago
  > when adjusting volume in the status bar the UI dragbar position is very jumpy I've noticed this as well. Qualitatively, it seems to be worse when external audio output devices are selected, than for the Internal Speakers.
sillyconvalley 7y ago
I'm consistently amazed by HN's ability to take the most meaningless, inconsequential part of an article (the scroll behavior, the whitespace, the usage of the word "bricked"), and nitpick it to hell and back instead of actually discussing the article. Bravo.
baryphonic 7y ago
This is interesting. I sat down at my machine on Thursday morning, and it was entirely unresponsive. It had warned me about installing updates the previous evening, but I've done this many times without an issue, and regardless, they are always complete by morning. I waited a minute or two for any sign of life (beyond the fans running), and then held power. I heard the unpleasant sound of the fans spinning up to high RPM and then shutting off rapidly. I waited a few seconds and then held power again. The machine showed a slow progress bar, but then finally I saw "26 minutes remaining" below it. I was pretty surprised that the update was running, but I figured it had just started late or hung, and ran a bit later into the working hours. This article makes me reevaluate that thought. Coincidentally, one of my colleagues had warned the team about installing macOS updates, since he was having repeated issues with kernel panics on the original 10.15.4 update. I hope Apple can get some of this together a little better going forward.
- teilo 7y ago
  I had a similar issue to yours when I manually ran this update on my 16". It froze on a black screen, after doing the BridgeOS part of the update. I had to force it down. When it started, it continued the update and, thankfully, everything worked. However, I'm still having kernel panics after the Supplemental update. But interestingly, they only happen when the machine is supposedly sleeping, with the shell closed. I kid you not. I will have it sitting there on my end table in the living room, shut for over an hour, and all of the sudden it will reboot with the lid closed (I know because I have the startup chime enabled). I've never had a Mac kernel panic while supposedly sleeping. This is so f*cked.
  - hanche 7y ago
    Even a supposedly sleeping Mac will wake up from time to time, doing exactly what I don’t know. But I consistently see it in the logs.
    - gns24 7y ago
      It will sync email and other things so that everything is already downloaded when you wake it up. See https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204032 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204032
sv9 7y ago
I'm consistently amazed by HN's ability to take the most meaningless, inconsequential part of an article (the scroll behavior, the whitespace, the usage of the word "bricked"), and nitpick it to hell and back instead of actually discussing the article. Bravo.
- toomim 7y ago
  Well, maybe it's because the article is hyping itself up in order to get more attention than its content justifies. As a result, some large percentage of readers are let down by the actual content, and think it wasn't worth reading, let alone commenting on.
  - na85 7y ago
    Oh c'mon, the real issue here is Apple's abysmal quality control (and really it's an industry-wide trend). They're phoning it in with real, tangible effect, but based on the upvotes here at the time of writing, HN seems to consider the debate around what "bricked" implies to be the most important conversation.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    > to get more attention than its content justifies That your Mac can get to the point by an Apple OS update that you need to enter recovery mode? (Even as someone who is exclusively Apple, I have seen the mockery Microsoft has endured for similar). Or worse, to the point that unless you have access to a spare Mac or the _currently closed_ Apple stores, you are shit out of luck? "Eh, no big deal, not worth reading or commenting on".
    - K0SM0S 7y ago
      I'd go with the fact that Apple has always been a little finicky, but initially quite fixable; then it became more and more locked down and users had to accept that fact: some left, some stayed. Nowadays pretty much nobody around here is surprised by the shenanigans you may have to go through on Apple platforms outside of the core mainstream experience. The fact that an OS update can brick a device is a non-event, it's happened before and will happen again. Apple is not perfect, no one is. They do a pretty good job most of the time, comparatively¹. The fact that in the case of Apple you have to suffer the aforementioned shenanigans to maybe solve the problem is, well, coincidental. It's not an event in itself either. Note this is why production machines in professional environments usually wait a few weeks-months to update. Also why security updates are generally offered on their own (shouldn't wait to install those). ____ 1: Note that, I personally can't stand being at the mercy of 1 corporation so I took matters in my own hands and run Linux: it rarely fails. When it does, it's usually my fault, so I can assign blame, learn my lesson and move on. Otherwise, I'd have to accept that every so often, a proprietary vendor update may brick the device.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
abartl 7y ago
For me the installation got stuck. Had to try twice
Avi-D-coder 7y ago
Why is Catalina so unstable, were there major architectural changes? I know they broke Nix, ssh and a few others, but why?
- aganame 7y ago
  It hasn’t been until this one, though, if this flaw is true.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Depends on what you’re looking at, but on the whole Catalina probably has more aggressive changes than Mojave did.
  - mekster 7y ago
    And what has users gained by that? For the past 5 years or so, I don't exactly know anything worth it from users' perspective. Getting third party app updates are enough to increase productivity.
    - danieldk 7y ago
      One of the high-impact changes (which broke Nix as the grand-grand parent mentioned) was moving / to a read-only volume: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 Although this change may not be immediately visible it does increase security a fair bit (malware cannot embed themselves or replace system files) and also prevents accidental deletion. Apple made large strides in the last few years improving security, e.g. by introducing SIP, but also by offering fine-grained permissions for camera, mic, etc. access. APFS created its own road bumps, but was a long overdue replacement of HFS+. IMO there were also some nice user-visible changes, such as dark mode, replacing iTunes by several separate applications, and dynamic desktop. I agree that there are also superfluous changes or steps back, I am still grumpy that they replaced Spaces by Mission Control. I don't care for all the deep iCloud Drive integration and think it is unfair to the competition. I strongly disagree that there are no useful new features the last five years. The problem is more the lack of quality control. That said, I started using macOS when 10.5 came out, which also had its fair share of ugly bugs (e.g. serious problems with maintaining WiFi connections).
forgingahead 7y ago
Side poll: Do people automatically download OS updates for their computers? A lesson from my Windows days way back when was never to update anything unless absolutely needed -- computer, phones, etc. "Needed" is loosely defined as "key software that you need to work is no longer working on your older OS, hence you need to upgrade your OS to keep using this key software (sorry!)." I'm aware of security patches etc, but risk of regular things breaking for little apparent upside has always led me (and most folks I know) to avoid upgrades except in the above-mentioned case. Edit, not just asking about Windows, but all operating systems, OSX, iOS, Android, Linux, etc.
- iknowstuff 7y ago
  Yes they do: https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/ https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    New versions of iOS usually have a much higher adoption rate than their corresponding macOS release.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I have automatic downloads enabled, but I usually beat it to install updates as I generally learn of new developer builds fairly quickly.
- beart 7y ago
  The default in Windows is to auto update and you have no choice without jumping through hoops or working under a corporate group policy. So at least in terms of Windows, the answer to your question is yes - most people automatically download OS updates.
- eru 7y ago
  > A lesson from my Windows days way back when was never to update anything unless absolutely needed -- computer, phones, etc. Windows 10 seems to be pretty good at keeping its users on the latest version? (Unless you actively tell it, not to?)
duttaoindril 7y ago
I had to send my mac in for repair. Horrifyingly painful during Corona. And they stole my graphics card (repair removed the graphics card), and reset back to Mojave. I had to chance re-installing Catalina myself.
auggierose 7y ago
Still on 10.15.3 Just disabled auto-update. Phew.
Scheris 7y ago
New 2019 16in MBP, luckily worked fine on my machine (and an old 2013 13in MBP). Sounds like a real pickle for those affected, though. v_v
b15h0p 7y ago
I had a problem with the latest iOS update too: after installing 13.4.1 it booted to a white screen with „swipe up to upgrade“ at the bottom. Swiping up crashed the device. Every couple of minutes it would reboot and be back to the white screen. I did a factory reset via finder and that worked. As soon as I restored the iCloud backup: back to the white screen. I had to revert to 13.4 and could then restore the backup. Now I’m afraid to update again … I guess I’ll have to wait until 13.4.2 or 14 are released. Luckily 13.4.1 does not seem to contain security relevant fixes.
- cageface 7y ago
  13.4 failed on my phone and I had to do a manual clean restore via my Mac. Then 13.4.1 did the same thing and this time I had to do a DFU restore to get it functioning again. Not fun when taking it in to get it fixed is not an option. I'm still getting freezes on my brand new 2019 MBP due to the still unfixed GPU switching bug and I don't dare install any macOS updates now. Apple has had a lot of software quality issues in recent years but this is a new low.
sakisv 7y ago
I think that Apple should take advantage of the lockdowns and focus just on fixing things. They don't need to ship anything new and they have the perfect excuse to focus on improving both their OS and their processes that allowed such flawed things to reach their users.
- m463 7y ago
  hmmm... I wonder if that will be easier or harder. Usually fixing bugs requires access to specific repro machines, and bricking might require access to a lab with jtag style hardware. makes me wonder what the realities of telecommuting really are.
- deergomoo 7y ago
  I wish macOS would just drop back to major releases every 2-3 years. Sure, drop a point release in September to add compatibility with whatever new feature iOS has gained, but my Mac is the computer I do work on. I need it to always be reliable. Right now it seems the only way to do that is wait a long time before installing any update they push.
  - apple4ever 7y ago
    I absolutely agree. The action of pushing out major updates every year has lead to a drop in quality. They never get a chance to fix last years bugs because they are working on next years features.
    - thu2111 7y ago
      That's not a fundamental issue though. Chrome pushes new features every six weeks. Android updates every year and doesn't suffer these kinds of problems. You absolutely can do regular updates that are high quality. You just can't do them in an environment that's deadline driven, or which gives PMs too much power over what dev teams work on.
      - apple4ever 7y ago
nottorp 7y ago
I thought they were bricked from the factory because of the shit keyboard that only works in clean room conditions. And I’m not talking hearsay here, I own one and the keyboard is as shitty as the entire internet says. Comparing to my previous MacBooks that had no keyboard problems when used outdoors too.
gerardvivancos 7y ago
I'm not sure this is an issue specific to this update. The very same description in the Apple forums matches what happened on my work Macbook Pro (a 2018 one if I'm not mistaken) while installing a different update a few months ago. I won't say this is not an issue specific to this supplemental update, but I'm not buying it is _yet_. It looks like one of the usual consequences of a system update going wrong. See that the user reports that after fixing this through Recovery Mode, they were asked to install the very same update again, as if nothing had happened. This looks like a rollback. I wish MacOS was more transparent about what actually happens on those cases. If you had to roll back, let me know. If you could not install because of any reason, let me know.
- sleepless 7y ago
  Apple has historically been lacking on proper documentation. Be that on errors happening during updates or proper documentation of what exactly they have changed in software updates. They have slightly improved, but still not great.
philshem 7y ago
I was bored, so after reading the thread here, I did the update anyway. iOS, too. No problems, still bored.
xcalibre 7y ago
This has been mentioned quite a few times but Apple's software quality seriously has taken a turn for the worse in the last few years. I've usually updated my macs to the latest OS's within a couple of weeks of release, but Catalina is the first time where I still have yet to update. Stories of bugs such as this as well as mail messages getting blanked out and unrecoverable makes me actually scared to upgrade.
- mmxmb 7y ago
  Does anyone know what might have caused this recent downturn in Apple's software quality?
  - xvector 7y ago
    The iPad’s software keyboard is still buggy as hell. The software keyboard, the part of the OS that the user will interact with the most, and the part of the OS that is required to be the most stable, frequently just completely breaks and requires a full device reboot to fix. That, to me, is insane. It shows how shit the project management must be if they cannot even prioritize fixing critical bugs in the most important parts of the OS over releasing some useless feature that most users will never touch.
    - Razengan 7y ago
      What bugs do you see in the iPad software keyboard? iOS keyboard input and text selection has been wonky for quite a while, and from what I've tried of Android, it doesn't feel much better on the other side of the fence either. Why can't Apple -or- Google get such basic interactivity right?
      - Waterluvian 7y ago
        For me the keyboard will sometimes not load properly. The keyboard just shows up as an empty pane. And that's a sign that my iPad is going to be all grindy and slow until I reboot it.
xyst 7y ago
I have been lucky thus far, I suppose. Before I run the updates, I disconnect all peripherals (Bluetooth devices, external monitors) and even close out all active applications. The two events are likely unrelated but so far has not failed me.
darepublic 7y ago
It's a good thing I always click later on these updates.. has Apple retracted this patch?
7ewis 7y ago
Wonder if this update could be related to an issue I had. Installed Snap Camera a few days ago, was on a video call and when I came off it the green camera light stayed on. Even after quitting Hangouts and Snap Camera. I restarted and the green light persisted throughout the whole reboot. I then shutdown, and it finally turned off. After turning it back on, the camera didn't work at all. I uninstalled Snap Camera, reset PRAM, SMC. Nothing seems to fix it. Now thinking it must be a hardware fault, but think I was on the latest update already and just seems like a strange coincidence that it happened almost immediately after I used Snap Camera for the first time.
GnarfGnarf 7y ago
Yesterday my MacBook Pro (2018, Model "MacBookPro15,1") updated itself, and I've had no problems. I'm at macOS 10.15.4 (19E287). Is this the latest version?
zhenyakovalyov 7y ago
My 2019 mbp was bricked with the previous update. Apple support said that they need to take a physical look, but all of their stores are closed until further notice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And by “bricked” I mean - no signs of life whatsoever
CrLf 7y ago
Well, I've upgraded my personal macbook to Catalina (this update) and nothing seems wrong... yet. OTOH, my work machine (a 2016 Macbook Pro) is stuck on Mojave (due to incompatible third-party software) and the latest "Security Update 2020-002" broke video conferencing. Right in the middle of a pandemic forcing everybody to work from home! Of course, this being Apple, I'm not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon. They don't seem to release individual updates anymore, and even these bundled "Supplemental Updates" are few and far between. Apple really needs to get its act together regarding macOS. People need macOS to actually be productive, unless they'd rather lose this segment completely to Microsoft.
szczepano 7y ago
They're earning billions yet can't afford to keep 5 mac books of each type in different configurations in one room and person or computer who will launch update before release and report green light. As always whatever size of company testing is a bottleneck because having roughly 25 computers and testing room is a problem. What a wonderful world.
- mthoms 7y ago
  As I understand it, not all components are sourced from the same manufacturer for the entire run of any one model. But you're still absolutely right. They should be testing every possible configuration.
stblack 7y ago
I suspect http://n-gate.com/ http://n-gate.com/ is gonna roast this post’s comments.
- stblack 7y ago
  LOL n-gate trolls referrals from here. That’s brilliant.
crazygringo 7y ago
Is there any actual quantitative evidence this update is any worse than any average update? The article presents three forum posts as evidence... which isn't evidence. I assume every update ever has messed up a handful of people's computers, even if just coincidentally (e.g. the computer was going to die on the next reboot no matter what). If thousands of people were complaining on Twitter that would be one thing. But since there aren't, and considering that Apple hasn't pulled the update... Is this just much ado about nothing?
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  What's "qualitative" in this context? No one (outside of Apple, who isn't sharing) is in a position to run a true assessment of the failure rate of every update. I think it's fair to say this issue is relatively rare, but there are definitely more than three reports of it happening. Heck, some people in this thread chimed in to say they got bit the update.
  - SpelingBeeChamp 7y ago
    It’s likely that some of those people found this thread because they were having problems.
- unloco 7y ago
  2019 imac getting kernel panics when going to sleep. It seems silly if you're not affected. But now that it's hit me, i'm about to go back to mojave. If it was just a weird bug, I could deal with it. But to kernel panic is a big deal to me. I cant trust the computer to not break if I walk away from it for 10 minutes. I guess I could turn off sleep, but that doesnt seem like a solution to me. To keep it running all the time so it doesnt break? nah.
  - hanche 7y ago
    If the issue is a firmware update, as I sort of suspect given the reports so far, going back to Mojave is not likely to help, unfortunately. I updated two machines myself with no problem. Guess I am just one of the lucky ones.
qplex 7y ago
I've never seen an OS update brick a PC. Linux or Windows, doesn't matter - you can always recover via BIOS. How can Apple users live with crap like this?
pinkahd 7y ago
I've updated my MacBook Pro 2019 before I saw the HN post, the updated went smoothly without any issues (so far). I've done the same update on my Mac Mini 2018 and now the fan has stopped working after reboot. Tried to reset NVRAM and SMC without any luck... the fan is still unresponsive. Apple diagnostics even confirms this by giving an error code PPF003
- getpolarized 7y ago
  My mid-2015 mac (last REAL MacBook IMO) won't install it at all. It says it's installing, I reboot, it does some stuff, then I come back and the update isn't applied. Quality stuff!
  - asdff 7y ago
    If it's any consolation, I really like the keyboard on this latest air. Gave me reason to move off my 2012, the REAL last real macbook imo with everything replaceable/upgrade-able with a Phillips head screwdriver and 20 minutes of your time.
abootstrapper 7y ago
Ugh. My 2018 i9 has been freezing randomly recently. I actually rushed to install the most recent update hoping it would fix the freezing. It hasn’t and now I gotta worry about this. I regret upgrading to Catalina. Nothing but problems since.
cavisne 7y ago
Truly terrible time with everyone working from home without tech support.
edapted 7y ago
2018 MBP, Using it on battery, saw I was at 20% plugged it in, noticed it was running like crap so I started closing applications, restarted it. Still running like crap after reboot, also noticed fans were not spinning figured maybe an SMC reset is in order when I realized it was at 2% battery, had not been charging, status said it was plugged in but not charging. Powered it off to do the SMC reset and I can get nothing from it now, not a thing, no sounds, no signs of life, no fans, no apple logo, no clicks from the trackpad. I think this qualifies as a brick.
denimnerd42 7y ago
Apple killed my 2015 macbook pro like this. Rebooted for update and never turned on again. No smc or recovery options worked. Completely bricked and also out of warranty.
perardi 7y ago
I am quite the Apple apologist, but Catalina is awful. 1. As seen here, it's a bugfest. 2. For user-facing features, it brings…Sidecar? And a bunch of half-assed Catalyst apps, I suppose. 3. Such an exciting new set of security features—really met what I have to guess was their goal to quickly train me to click OK on every single dialog to get to work.
- shadowCensor 7y ago
  I highly recommend taking a marketing class.
- jorge-d 7y ago
  Well Sidecar itself is a bugfest as well, it really feels unpolished
- freehunter 7y ago
  For 3, what it's taught me is that I have to load a video conference, go into the privacy settings, allow use of camera and microphone, then exit the video conference and load it again before anyone can see or hear me. I'm a consultant and talk to multiple clients all with their own video conference solution and having to do this every time I join a call where a client is using a different video conference solution is very unprofessional. The worst was using Teams where I had to close my browser before I could join the conference, after I had already queued up everything I needed for the call. So now everyone is waiting on me to re-open everything and reset the state for the demo. I never thought I'd miss Windows UAC.
  - bobbylarrybobby 7y ago
    Surely this is the fault of the app and not macOS? I have plenty of apps that asked for those permissions once, got it, and never asked again.
    - freehunter 7y ago
      They’re not asking again but asking for the first time is what is disruptive because it forces you to close whatever application is requesting permissions. It’s sucks when WebEx does it but at least that only makes you close WebEx. Still a really poor design choice but not nearly as disruptive as browser-based tools that make you close your browser.
LordFast 7y ago
The quality of Apple's Apple's and software has been on a gentle downward trend since about 2015. I still prefer them for now, but eventually the cost/benefit ratio just won't make sense anymore. If I'm paying for crappy quality, I'd rather just buy cheap.
pier25 7y ago
None of our 5 macs at home have Catalina installed. We will stay with Mojave for the foreseeable future. It seems Apple is finally getting their shit together on the Mac hardware front. Now they need to do the same for macOS. Moving to yearly macOS releases was a bad idea.
bdcravens 7y ago
I installed it on my 16" yesterday - haven't seen any of the issues in the article yet.
neycoda 7y ago
This is what happens when you focus on features over functionality, get excited over "delighting" your customers over providing reliable products, and put visibility over stability. Steve Jobs had a nice balance of this, Tim Cook is just a numbers guy.
kd22 7y ago
Was going to update today, I guess I am going to be on my current 10.15.2 for a long time. 10.15.2 is quite stable and runs smooth enough with occasional freezes happening maybe once a month.
DrGeek 7y ago
Does it have any impact on the display? Well, roughly the lower half-inch portion of my display gets crazy randomly. Mine is a 13 inch 2017 MacBook Pro. Any remarks guys?
awzeemo 7y ago
One data point here - my late 2013 MacBook Pro (ME864LL/A) is fine with 10.15.4
wkoszek 7y ago
Eh. I'm so happy to now be alone. I really hope they'll hear it. I just sent my brand new MBP 16" back to Apple, because I believe that's what happened to me too. 2 weeks ago Friday an update fetched overnight messed me up--upon starting I got an installer with "27 minutes to go", then a login screen, and upon a login with my password, I got a pure-white-screen for 2-5s, then 2s of max-fan speed, and an instant reboot. And it went on to happen in the loop: login -> white screen -> reboot. Recovery mode + macOS reinstall = "Can't install macOS on this computer" To my that starts to match the definition of "bricked" already, because a normal person really can't probably recover from this at that point. Recovery mode (booted via USB drive) = "Installer is missing assets" (tried 2 USB drives, after re-downloading Catalina installer Recovery mode (booted via USB drive with Mojave) = this is not supported anymore Recovery mode -> Disk Utility -> First Aid -> run a FS check, turned out APFS volume is corrupted ("fsroot tree is invalid")... Target mode (went to BestBuy to get a special "SS+" certified USB-C cable, because of course a normal cable doesn't work) connected to my macOS Catalina Mac mini -> couldn't unencrypted the APFS partition enough though the password was correct. Read every possible target mode tutorial, and there's no mention about what Catalina did to Recovery Keys/User (other than them simply not being there), but you need to pass a UUID of a recovery used, and I only had some iCloud Recovery Keys there. Tried my MacBook password, my iCloud password etc. Nothing worked. Basically I couldn't un-encrypt the drive. Ended up just starting Recovery Mode again, mounting a separate USB disk from the Terminal, copied valuable stuff over. Removed all APFS volumes, tried to re-install on a fresh volumes. Nothing worked. Was getting the same issues from the installer. Gave up. Packed this $4k computer and sent it back to Apple. Writing this from my Mac mini, with Catalina, happily rejecting any updates. BTW, Catalina installer is a joke. It is broken since Catalina came out, and it's not getting any better.
neo1691 7y ago
I am having serious problems with WiFi. I have about six apple devices and my home wlan works perfectly for all of them except my MacBook Pro. It connects and then in some minutes there is no internet. No packets in no packets out. Tried everything. Tomorrow I do a hard reset. Nice way to spend my Easter holidays.
appleflaxen 7y ago
Since my power cord frayed (no strain relief due to aesthetics) to the point that it will no longer charge, my laptop has been off for a week. I've been protected from a major flaw by another, equally major flaw. I guess it's better than the alternative of getting hit by them both.
wisecoder 7y ago
Why i cannot find any ergonomic keyboard for mac?
intense_feel 7y ago
I can confirm that the revive via DFU works. It also works over normal USB (instead of usb-c) connector as I used my gf older mac pro late 2015. Be aware that you need at least Mojave 10.14.6+ as the app configurator can't be run/installed on previous versions. There is also a big difference in App configurator 2.10 vs the latest 2.12. On 2.10 (you can find dmg file on internet, but be careful about running untrusted software) you can restore BridgeOS on the chip without wiping the data. In version 2.12 it will wipe all data! Initially, I tried to restore the system via Virtualbox where I installed Mojave via Apple Configurator but that didn't work as it break during the revival of the last step because of the constant USB de-plugging from host/guest machine during the process. I think just the revival step in 2.12 should also work as it flashes also the bridge os and power it up which should avoid any data loss but don't take this for granted.
MrMacintoshBlog 7y ago
I am tracking the issue here. https://mrmacintosh.com/10-15-4-supplemental-update-bricking-small-number-of-t2-macs/ https://mrmacintosh.com/10-15-4-supplemental-update-bricking...

607 points by Corrado 7y ago

Odd, this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Besides bricks (well, is it a brick if you can recover?) we have seen post-update BSOD's, data loss, browsers going bad, settings getting reset on various operating systems of the big vendors out there. I know that it isn't like software 'used to be perfect' but this type of defect feels bigger than it used to be.

manaskarekar 7y ago
Move fast, break things! On a serious note, possibly because things are much too capable and complex than they used to be, combined with tight release cycles.
- TAForObvReasons 7y ago
  Also more software systems enable "automatic updates". Whereas in the past only those that chose to upgrade were affected, now everyone is affected except for those that chose not to enable automatic updates.
kbumsik 7y ago
I guess two reasons: 1. The OS update policies became more "agile". Both Windows and macOS starts to update the OS more often than ever. macOS moved to an annual update from biannual, Windows 10 switched to a subscription-like model. 2. They laid off the testing team and stopped testing on actual PCs in favor of VMs. [1] It makes sense considering the broken updates are often more low-level bugs that cannot be caught by VMs. [1]: https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-problems-are-ruining-microsofts-reputation-and-the-damage-cant-be-underestimated https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-problems-are-ruini...
- Florin_Andrei 7y ago
  > They laid off the testing team Must be good for the bottom line. The cost is absorbed by the unlucky users.
  - chaos_a 7y ago
    It's another case of focusing on the short term to save money. In the long term it damages their reputation and some frustrated businesses/users might start to consider moving away from their products if a viable alternative exists.
    - the_other 7y ago
      Unfortunately there’s only two players in this game (I doubt mass consumption of linux any time soon). So, if they both suck, neither loses the reputation game.
    - Florin_Andrei 7y ago
      If everyone does the same, then reputation doesn't matter as much.
userbinator 7y ago
I think this is the saddest part: was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March The "fix some bugs, add some new ones" trend has certainly gotten more common within the past few years. I still remember when the official advice was not to install updates unless you were experiencing the issues it was to fix, but that wasn't really applicable to security fixes, and now official advice seems to be "always install" regardless of security or indeed usefulness.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  I think it's always been there. I remember reading a paper that said for every two bugs fixed a new one is created.
nrp 7y ago
I don't think it's more prevalent. I think it's more notable precisely because we've gotten so used to our devices and data being stable. Don't forget that in the past it was pretty much expected you'd lose or break something when upgrading your OS, and that you could pretty much count on physical hard drive failure resulting in data loss at some point in the life of your PC. BSOD's especially were almost certainly more prevalent in the bad old days of Windows. Looking just at Mac, don't forget about when PRAM resets were part of the normal debug flow.
sumedh 7y ago
> this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Isnt that because lof of companies are eliminating QA people and expect the devs to do the testing.
flyinghamster 7y ago
I've experienced it myself with one of the Android apps i use (a VoIP client). The latest update killed my ability to call out through my office PBX, and I had to fish the old version out of one of my backups, since the Play Store oh-so-helpfully doesn't let you install older versions of an app.

ObsoleteNerd 7y ago

It's not "bricked" if you can fix it in Recovery Mode. Still bad that it's happening, but the term "bricked" is thrown around so flippantly these days. If a piece of tech is bricked, it's not recoverable at all.

bromuro 7y ago
English is not my native language and this is the first time I hear about this “bricked” expression. What does it mean?
- DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
  It means you've rendered your device functionally equivalent to a brick, i.e., it's a hunk of inanimate metal that will never again be useful.
- dagmx 7y ago
  It means that something made your device non functional, so it’s almost like your device is a brick or useless heavy load
- plussed_reader 7y ago
  Some manner of update or action attenuates the processing power of the device to that of a clay brick.
- throwaway15392 7y ago
  It’s not a real word, it’s more of a slang word It just changes the noun brick into a verb. So if a laptop has bricked, it means it’s like a brick now (useless)
  - eru 7y ago
    Slang words are real. (And so is "ain't", and most words you can make up on the spot.)
    - 7y ago

bluedino 7y ago

Are people not using auto-update?

ravenstine 7y ago
Why would I want to wake up in the morning to find my laptop not working? This issue is exactly why I only occasionally install updates, and if I do I wait a while for the canaries to leave the coal mine. I've been a user of macOS, distros of Linux, and Windows for years, and in every one of them there was the inevitable update that made the OS unusable. It happens rarely but, when it does, it's a miserable experience.
- wuunderbar 7y ago
  Interested in hearing about a Linux update that made the system unusable.
  - therealx 7y ago
    Are you kidding? I've had config files overwritten, x11/wayland/whatever just break after an update, wirelesss/power drivers just...change, sometimes to the point of having to recover it from a mono-screen tty, or updates fuck up the fs or something else that requires me to hit up single user mode.
    - virtualwhys 7y ago
      Have been on Fedora for 10 years; the only thing that "reliably" breaks is the proprietary Nvidia driver. Otherwise Linux is pretty damn rock solid. These days "it just works" applies to Linux more than any other OS. And with the new Nvidia-less Dell Precision 5400 the system runs cool and quiet to boot. Linux isn't what it used to be...
    - ravenstine 7y ago
      Yeah, I got a black screen on boot on more than one occasion because of some change to either X11 or its config after updating. It's probably a rite of passage for a seasoned Linux user to figure out how to undo the damage to their `/etc/x11/xorg.conf`. (then again, I stopped using linux about 4 years ago, so maybe that's changed)

msie 7y ago

This really sucks. Can’t use the new Xcode without Catalina but this release sounds so buggy.

cutler 7y ago
Yes, there's no way Catalina is ever going on any of my machines. Apple has hit a real low-point with this release.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Just an anecdote but it's been rock solid for me and fixed a number of issues I had with Mojave.
  - dddddaviddddd 7y ago
    Which issues?
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
      Mostly to do with recognising an external monitor.
      - gmac 7y ago
        Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve recently had to switch to using the HDMI instead of the Mini DisplayPort to connect a 4K monitor to my mid-2014 MBP, since it wasn’t being recognised (which also means dropping from 60fps to 30). Wasn’t sure if this was related to an update. Are your symptoms similar?
  - aganame 7y ago
    Ditto. My worst problem has been that some games on Steam claim they don’t work on Mojave... but they do.
    - 7y ago

rammy1234 7y ago

Timing of this cannot be more wrong. WFH and no store opened will make this more worse.

rootusrootus 7y ago
I'm actually a little surprised they're pushing out updates at all right now. They have to be aware of the risk.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Supplemental updates usually fix serious bugs or ones that impact a lot of people. They're fairly rare.
  - danieldk 7y ago
    Indeed. The problem was 10.15.4 to start with. One reason to roll out the supplemental update was because 10.15.4 broke Facetime compatibility with older iOS and macOS versions (which is particularly bad in the current crisis). Maybe they shouldn't have released 10.15.4 right now, but instead only the security fixes in this release. But they had to push out that release to support the new MacBook Air. Another problem with such reports is that it is hard to get an idea of how widespread this problem is. And whether the problem (perhaps) already occurred with previous Catalina updates, but is now picked up more.

rukshn 7y ago

I just installed the update yesterday and now I'm seeing this. Mine is working so far

diebeforei485 7y ago

I think companies are pushing updates way too aggressively to those who have auto update on. Is there some reason why phased release isn't more common among OS/firmware updates? Auto update does not have to mean "update my device the day new versions are out". Edit: Is this related to public disclosure of security bugs? If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a week after the update is available. This would allow for phased rollouts.

cesarb 7y ago
> If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a week after the update is available. The update being available is public disclosure! For an experienced reverse engineer, comparing the files before and after the update is usually enough to pinpoint the security issue.
- therein 7y ago
  I can't seem to be able to find a link to it right now but there was even this one project/website that dumped the bindiffs for each Windows Update and their disassembly.
- ivan_gammel 7y ago
  No, it is not necessarily so. First phase of rollout can happen to the users and businesses under NDA.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Betas are partly NDA'd to some extent, but this has historically been enforced quite poorly.
- diebeforei485 7y ago
  Don't most iOS bugs these days require multiple security exploits in order to work? I'm not sure it's always that simple to find a reliable exploit just based on what code has changed (because lots of code has changed). If there is an obvious to find, easily-exploitable bug, the update could be pushed to everyone (the way updates are pushed today). There is a balance to strike here. If issues with auto update cause enough people turn auto update off, I'm not sure it's helping security. Finally - Apple already has a beta programs including public betas. Are those binaries not already used to find exploits? Essentially, I'm not convinced a phased update (with public security disclosure slightly later) would lead to worse security than we have today.

vondur 7y ago

Well, not bricked you just lose your data. That data that most people don't have backups for.

saagarjha 7y ago
Where does it say that you lose your data?
- LilBytes 7y ago
  I was hit by this bug, my entire unit was fucked and I had to use Recovery over the Internet to reinstall a fresh OS on my 2019 MacBook Pro. Nearly everything on my Mac was dot sourced, on Git or using my local NAS' TimeMachine share. All the same, all my data on the Mac was still lost and had to be restored using backup.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Reinstalling the OS shouldn't wipe your data partition…
    - harikb 7y ago
      At least in the default install, it is all one partition. Moreover, if you had disk encryption or something, getting the recovery keys would be a risk even you had followed all the right steps. Granted, none of these are good excuses for not doing TM backups since those are so easy. But just saying people could lose data and not have an easy way to recover it.
      - diebeforei485 7y ago
        This is not true in Catalina. 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650
        harikb 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

Is this something especially prevalent in this update? Pretty much every single one borks someone's Mac, so I'm curious if there's something new: this article seemed light on details.

bangonkeyboard 7y ago

I thought this would be about the 10.15.4 update, which had known problems, but instead it's the supplemental hotfix that was supposed to address them: "This supplemental update for macOS 10.15.4 Catalina, released Wednesday (April 8), was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March."

t0ughcritic 7y ago

I thought it was just me!

cutler 7y ago

Well, that's it for Catalina then. Although I really want full Xcode 11.4/Swift UI/Swift 5.2 and my MacBook Pro a Catalina upgrade is just too much of a risk. On top of all the previous Catalina woes Apple should be hanging their heads in shame.

andrekandre 7y ago
> Xcode 11.4 your probably not missing much, there are some serious regressings in that release, for example [0] [0] https://forums.swift.org/t/swift-5-2-struct-property-wrapper-didset-defect/34403/3 https://forums.swift.org/t/swift-5-2-struct-property-wrapper... (for me, cant make release builds because the compiler crashes... sigh...)
- trevyn 7y ago
  You’re missing the ability to connect to and debug on iOS 13.4 devices, I believe: https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/130988 https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/130988 So now I’m stuck on 10.14.6 and iOS 13.3.1, one of which is not getting security updates. Really hoping Fuschia or someone steps up and displaces Apple.
  - cageface 7y ago
    My stress level has gone down dramatically since I gave up iOS development and went back to the web. I think it’s a better career move long term too.
  - shimfish 7y ago
    I managed to get round this by copying Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/iPhoneOS.platform/DeviceSupport/13.4 from the latest Xcode.xib into my installed Xcode package. I can now debug 13.4 devices on Xcode 11.3.
  - apple4ever 7y ago
    What??? Xcode 11.4 requires Catalina now?? That’s nuts.

d99kris 7y ago

I have a MacBook 12" 2017 and have not encountered any serious issue with 10.15.4 supplemental update, yet.. I do however note that when adjusting volume in the status bar the UI dragbar position is very jumpy, which gives a rather unpolished impression.

boardwaalk 7y ago
I haven't had any issues either, 2017 MBP. Volume slider acts normally, too.
davidweir 7y ago
> when adjusting volume in the status bar the UI dragbar position is very jumpy I've noticed this as well. Qualitatively, it seems to be worse when external audio output devices are selected, than for the Internal Speakers.

sillyconvalley 7y ago

I'm consistently amazed by HN's ability to take the most meaningless, inconsequential part of an article (the scroll behavior, the whitespace, the usage of the word "bricked"), and nitpick it to hell and back instead of actually discussing the article. Bravo.

baryphonic 7y ago

This is interesting. I sat down at my machine on Thursday morning, and it was entirely unresponsive. It had warned me about installing updates the previous evening, but I've done this many times without an issue, and regardless, they are always complete by morning. I waited a minute or two for any sign of life (beyond the fans running), and then held power. I heard the unpleasant sound of the fans spinning up to high RPM and then shutting off rapidly. I waited a few seconds and then held power again. The machine showed a slow progress bar, but then finally I saw "26 minutes remaining" below it. I was pretty surprised that the update was running, but I figured it had just started late or hung, and ran a bit later into the working hours. This article makes me reevaluate that thought. Coincidentally, one of my colleagues had warned the team about installing macOS updates, since he was having repeated issues with kernel panics on the original 10.15.4 update. I hope Apple can get some of this together a little better going forward.

teilo 7y ago
I had a similar issue to yours when I manually ran this update on my 16". It froze on a black screen, after doing the BridgeOS part of the update. I had to force it down. When it started, it continued the update and, thankfully, everything worked. However, I'm still having kernel panics after the Supplemental update. But interestingly, they only happen when the machine is supposedly sleeping, with the shell closed. I kid you not. I will have it sitting there on my end table in the living room, shut for over an hour, and all of the sudden it will reboot with the lid closed (I know because I have the startup chime enabled). I've never had a Mac kernel panic while supposedly sleeping. This is so f*cked.
- hanche 7y ago
  Even a supposedly sleeping Mac will wake up from time to time, doing exactly what I don’t know. But I consistently see it in the logs.
  - gns24 7y ago
    It will sync email and other things so that everything is already downloaded when you wake it up. See https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204032 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204032

sv9 7y ago

toomim 7y ago
Well, maybe it's because the article is hyping itself up in order to get more attention than its content justifies. As a result, some large percentage of readers are let down by the actual content, and think it wasn't worth reading, let alone commenting on.
- na85 7y ago
  Oh c'mon, the real issue here is Apple's abysmal quality control (and really it's an industry-wide trend). They're phoning it in with real, tangible effect, but based on the upvotes here at the time of writing, HN seems to consider the debate around what "bricked" implies to be the most important conversation.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  > to get more attention than its content justifies That your Mac can get to the point by an Apple OS update that you need to enter recovery mode? (Even as someone who is exclusively Apple, I have seen the mockery Microsoft has endured for similar). Or worse, to the point that unless you have access to a spare Mac or the _currently closed_ Apple stores, you are shit out of luck? "Eh, no big deal, not worth reading or commenting on".
  - K0SM0S 7y ago
    I'd go with the fact that Apple has always been a little finicky, but initially quite fixable; then it became more and more locked down and users had to accept that fact: some left, some stayed. Nowadays pretty much nobody around here is surprised by the shenanigans you may have to go through on Apple platforms outside of the core mainstream experience. The fact that an OS update can brick a device is a non-event, it's happened before and will happen again. Apple is not perfect, no one is. They do a pretty good job most of the time, comparatively¹. The fact that in the case of Apple you have to suffer the aforementioned shenanigans to maybe solve the problem is, well, coincidental. It's not an event in itself either. Note this is why production machines in professional environments usually wait a few weeks-months to update. Also why security updates are generally offered on their own (shouldn't wait to install those). ____ 1: Note that, I personally can't stand being at the mercy of 1 corporation so I took matters in my own hands and run Linux: it rarely fails. When it does, it's usually my fault, so I can assign blame, learn my lesson and move on. Otherwise, I'd have to accept that every so often, a proprietary vendor update may brick the device.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

abartl 7y ago

For me the installation got stuck. Had to try twice

Avi-D-coder 7y ago

Why is Catalina so unstable, were there major architectural changes? I know they broke Nix, ssh and a few others, but why?

aganame 7y ago
It hasn’t been until this one, though, if this flaw is true.
saagarjha 7y ago
Depends on what you’re looking at, but on the whole Catalina probably has more aggressive changes than Mojave did.
- mekster 7y ago
  And what has users gained by that? For the past 5 years or so, I don't exactly know anything worth it from users' perspective. Getting third party app updates are enough to increase productivity.
  - danieldk 7y ago
    One of the high-impact changes (which broke Nix as the grand-grand parent mentioned) was moving / to a read-only volume: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210650 Although this change may not be immediately visible it does increase security a fair bit (malware cannot embed themselves or replace system files) and also prevents accidental deletion. Apple made large strides in the last few years improving security, e.g. by introducing SIP, but also by offering fine-grained permissions for camera, mic, etc. access. APFS created its own road bumps, but was a long overdue replacement of HFS+. IMO there were also some nice user-visible changes, such as dark mode, replacing iTunes by several separate applications, and dynamic desktop. I agree that there are also superfluous changes or steps back, I am still grumpy that they replaced Spaces by Mission Control. I don't care for all the deep iCloud Drive integration and think it is unfair to the competition. I strongly disagree that there are no useful new features the last five years. The problem is more the lack of quality control. That said, I started using macOS when 10.5 came out, which also had its fair share of ugly bugs (e.g. serious problems with maintaining WiFi connections).

forgingahead 7y ago

Side poll: Do people automatically download OS updates for their computers? A lesson from my Windows days way back when was never to update anything unless absolutely needed -- computer, phones, etc. "Needed" is loosely defined as "key software that you need to work is no longer working on your older OS, hence you need to upgrade your OS to keep using this key software (sorry!)." I'm aware of security patches etc, but risk of regular things breaking for little apparent upside has always led me (and most folks I know) to avoid upgrades except in the above-mentioned case. Edit, not just asking about Windows, but all operating systems, OSX, iOS, Android, Linux, etc.

iknowstuff 7y ago
Yes they do: https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/ https://david-smith.org/iosversionstats/
- saagarjha 7y ago
  New versions of iOS usually have a much higher adoption rate than their corresponding macOS release.
saagarjha 7y ago
I have automatic downloads enabled, but I usually beat it to install updates as I generally learn of new developer builds fairly quickly.
beart 7y ago
The default in Windows is to auto update and you have no choice without jumping through hoops or working under a corporate group policy. So at least in terms of Windows, the answer to your question is yes - most people automatically download OS updates.
eru 7y ago
> A lesson from my Windows days way back when was never to update anything unless absolutely needed -- computer, phones, etc. Windows 10 seems to be pretty good at keeping its users on the latest version? (Unless you actively tell it, not to?)

duttaoindril 7y ago

I had to send my mac in for repair. Horrifyingly painful during Corona. And they stole my graphics card (repair removed the graphics card), and reset back to Mojave. I had to chance re-installing Catalina myself.

auggierose 7y ago

Still on 10.15.3 Just disabled auto-update. Phew.

Scheris 7y ago

New 2019 16in MBP, luckily worked fine on my machine (and an old 2013 13in MBP). Sounds like a real pickle for those affected, though. v_v

b15h0p 7y ago

I had a problem with the latest iOS update too: after installing 13.4.1 it booted to a white screen with „swipe up to upgrade“ at the bottom. Swiping up crashed the device. Every couple of minutes it would reboot and be back to the white screen. I did a factory reset via finder and that worked. As soon as I restored the iCloud backup: back to the white screen. I had to revert to 13.4 and could then restore the backup. Now I’m afraid to update again … I guess I’ll have to wait until 13.4.2 or 14 are released. Luckily 13.4.1 does not seem to contain security relevant fixes.

cageface 7y ago
13.4 failed on my phone and I had to do a manual clean restore via my Mac. Then 13.4.1 did the same thing and this time I had to do a DFU restore to get it functioning again. Not fun when taking it in to get it fixed is not an option. I'm still getting freezes on my brand new 2019 MBP due to the still unfixed GPU switching bug and I don't dare install any macOS updates now. Apple has had a lot of software quality issues in recent years but this is a new low.

sakisv 7y ago

I think that Apple should take advantage of the lockdowns and focus just on fixing things. They don't need to ship anything new and they have the perfect excuse to focus on improving both their OS and their processes that allowed such flawed things to reach their users.

m463 7y ago
hmmm... I wonder if that will be easier or harder. Usually fixing bugs requires access to specific repro machines, and bricking might require access to a lab with jtag style hardware. makes me wonder what the realities of telecommuting really are.
deergomoo 7y ago
I wish macOS would just drop back to major releases every 2-3 years. Sure, drop a point release in September to add compatibility with whatever new feature iOS has gained, but my Mac is the computer I do work on. I need it to always be reliable. Right now it seems the only way to do that is wait a long time before installing any update they push.
- apple4ever 7y ago
  I absolutely agree. The action of pushing out major updates every year has lead to a drop in quality. They never get a chance to fix last years bugs because they are working on next years features.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    That's not a fundamental issue though. Chrome pushes new features every six weeks. Android updates every year and doesn't suffer these kinds of problems. You absolutely can do regular updates that are high quality. You just can't do them in an environment that's deadline driven, or which gives PMs too much power over what dev teams work on.
    - apple4ever 7y ago

nottorp 7y ago

I thought they were bricked from the factory because of the shit keyboard that only works in clean room conditions. And I’m not talking hearsay here, I own one and the keyboard is as shitty as the entire internet says. Comparing to my previous MacBooks that had no keyboard problems when used outdoors too.

gerardvivancos 7y ago

I'm not sure this is an issue specific to this update. The very same description in the Apple forums matches what happened on my work Macbook Pro (a 2018 one if I'm not mistaken) while installing a different update a few months ago. I won't say this is not an issue specific to this supplemental update, but I'm not buying it is _yet_. It looks like one of the usual consequences of a system update going wrong. See that the user reports that after fixing this through Recovery Mode, they were asked to install the very same update again, as if nothing had happened. This looks like a rollback. I wish MacOS was more transparent about what actually happens on those cases. If you had to roll back, let me know. If you could not install because of any reason, let me know.

sleepless 7y ago
Apple has historically been lacking on proper documentation. Be that on errors happening during updates or proper documentation of what exactly they have changed in software updates. They have slightly improved, but still not great.

philshem 7y ago

I was bored, so after reading the thread here, I did the update anyway. iOS, too. No problems, still bored.

xcalibre 7y ago

This has been mentioned quite a few times but Apple's software quality seriously has taken a turn for the worse in the last few years. I've usually updated my macs to the latest OS's within a couple of weeks of release, but Catalina is the first time where I still have yet to update. Stories of bugs such as this as well as mail messages getting blanked out and unrecoverable makes me actually scared to upgrade.

mmxmb 7y ago
Does anyone know what might have caused this recent downturn in Apple's software quality?
- xvector 7y ago
  The iPad’s software keyboard is still buggy as hell. The software keyboard, the part of the OS that the user will interact with the most, and the part of the OS that is required to be the most stable, frequently just completely breaks and requires a full device reboot to fix. That, to me, is insane. It shows how shit the project management must be if they cannot even prioritize fixing critical bugs in the most important parts of the OS over releasing some useless feature that most users will never touch.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    What bugs do you see in the iPad software keyboard? iOS keyboard input and text selection has been wonky for quite a while, and from what I've tried of Android, it doesn't feel much better on the other side of the fence either. Why can't Apple -or- Google get such basic interactivity right?
    - Waterluvian 7y ago
      For me the keyboard will sometimes not load properly. The keyboard just shows up as an empty pane. And that's a sign that my iPad is going to be all grindy and slow until I reboot it.

xyst 7y ago

I have been lucky thus far, I suppose. Before I run the updates, I disconnect all peripherals (Bluetooth devices, external monitors) and even close out all active applications. The two events are likely unrelated but so far has not failed me.

darepublic 7y ago

It's a good thing I always click later on these updates.. has Apple retracted this patch?

7ewis 7y ago

Wonder if this update could be related to an issue I had. Installed Snap Camera a few days ago, was on a video call and when I came off it the green camera light stayed on. Even after quitting Hangouts and Snap Camera. I restarted and the green light persisted throughout the whole reboot. I then shutdown, and it finally turned off. After turning it back on, the camera didn't work at all. I uninstalled Snap Camera, reset PRAM, SMC. Nothing seems to fix it. Now thinking it must be a hardware fault, but think I was on the latest update already and just seems like a strange coincidence that it happened almost immediately after I used Snap Camera for the first time.

GnarfGnarf 7y ago

Yesterday my MacBook Pro (2018, Model "MacBookPro15,1") updated itself, and I've had no problems. I'm at macOS 10.15.4 (19E287). Is this the latest version?

zhenyakovalyov 7y ago

My 2019 mbp was bricked with the previous update. Apple support said that they need to take a physical look, but all of their stores are closed until further notice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And by “bricked” I mean - no signs of life whatsoever

CrLf 7y ago

Well, I've upgraded my personal macbook to Catalina (this update) and nothing seems wrong... yet. OTOH, my work machine (a 2016 Macbook Pro) is stuck on Mojave (due to incompatible third-party software) and the latest "Security Update 2020-002" broke video conferencing. Right in the middle of a pandemic forcing everybody to work from home! Of course, this being Apple, I'm not holding my breath for a fix anytime soon. They don't seem to release individual updates anymore, and even these bundled "Supplemental Updates" are few and far between. Apple really needs to get its act together regarding macOS. People need macOS to actually be productive, unless they'd rather lose this segment completely to Microsoft.

szczepano 7y ago

They're earning billions yet can't afford to keep 5 mac books of each type in different configurations in one room and person or computer who will launch update before release and report green light. As always whatever size of company testing is a bottleneck because having roughly 25 computers and testing room is a problem. What a wonderful world.

mthoms 7y ago
As I understand it, not all components are sourced from the same manufacturer for the entire run of any one model. But you're still absolutely right. They should be testing every possible configuration.

stblack 7y ago

I suspect http://n-gate.com/ http://n-gate.com/ is gonna roast this post’s comments.

stblack 7y ago
LOL n-gate trolls referrals from here. That’s brilliant.

crazygringo 7y ago

Is there any actual quantitative evidence this update is any worse than any average update? The article presents three forum posts as evidence... which isn't evidence. I assume every update ever has messed up a handful of people's computers, even if just coincidentally (e.g. the computer was going to die on the next reboot no matter what). If thousands of people were complaining on Twitter that would be one thing. But since there aren't, and considering that Apple hasn't pulled the update... Is this just much ado about nothing?

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
What's "qualitative" in this context? No one (outside of Apple, who isn't sharing) is in a position to run a true assessment of the failure rate of every update. I think it's fair to say this issue is relatively rare, but there are definitely more than three reports of it happening. Heck, some people in this thread chimed in to say they got bit the update.
- SpelingBeeChamp 7y ago
  It’s likely that some of those people found this thread because they were having problems.
unloco 7y ago
2019 imac getting kernel panics when going to sleep. It seems silly if you're not affected. But now that it's hit me, i'm about to go back to mojave. If it was just a weird bug, I could deal with it. But to kernel panic is a big deal to me. I cant trust the computer to not break if I walk away from it for 10 minutes. I guess I could turn off sleep, but that doesnt seem like a solution to me. To keep it running all the time so it doesnt break? nah.
- hanche 7y ago
  If the issue is a firmware update, as I sort of suspect given the reports so far, going back to Mojave is not likely to help, unfortunately. I updated two machines myself with no problem. Guess I am just one of the lucky ones.

qplex 7y ago

I've never seen an OS update brick a PC. Linux or Windows, doesn't matter - you can always recover via BIOS. How can Apple users live with crap like this?

pinkahd 7y ago

I've updated my MacBook Pro 2019 before I saw the HN post, the updated went smoothly without any issues (so far). I've done the same update on my Mac Mini 2018 and now the fan has stopped working after reboot. Tried to reset NVRAM and SMC without any luck... the fan is still unresponsive. Apple diagnostics even confirms this by giving an error code PPF003

getpolarized 7y ago
My mid-2015 mac (last REAL MacBook IMO) won't install it at all. It says it's installing, I reboot, it does some stuff, then I come back and the update isn't applied. Quality stuff!
- asdff 7y ago
  If it's any consolation, I really like the keyboard on this latest air. Gave me reason to move off my 2012, the REAL last real macbook imo with everything replaceable/upgrade-able with a Phillips head screwdriver and 20 minutes of your time.

abootstrapper 7y ago

Ugh. My 2018 i9 has been freezing randomly recently. I actually rushed to install the most recent update hoping it would fix the freezing. It hasn’t and now I gotta worry about this. I regret upgrading to Catalina. Nothing but problems since.

cavisne 7y ago

Truly terrible time with everyone working from home without tech support.

edapted 7y ago

2018 MBP, Using it on battery, saw I was at 20% plugged it in, noticed it was running like crap so I started closing applications, restarted it. Still running like crap after reboot, also noticed fans were not spinning figured maybe an SMC reset is in order when I realized it was at 2% battery, had not been charging, status said it was plugged in but not charging. Powered it off to do the SMC reset and I can get nothing from it now, not a thing, no sounds, no signs of life, no fans, no apple logo, no clicks from the trackpad. I think this qualifies as a brick.

denimnerd42 7y ago

Apple killed my 2015 macbook pro like this. Rebooted for update and never turned on again. No smc or recovery options worked. Completely bricked and also out of warranty.

perardi 7y ago

I am quite the Apple apologist, but Catalina is awful. 1. As seen here, it's a bugfest. 2. For user-facing features, it brings…Sidecar? And a bunch of half-assed Catalyst apps, I suppose. 3. Such an exciting new set of security features—really met what I have to guess was their goal to quickly train me to click OK on every single dialog to get to work.

shadowCensor 7y ago
I highly recommend taking a marketing class.
jorge-d 7y ago
Well Sidecar itself is a bugfest as well, it really feels unpolished
freehunter 7y ago
For 3, what it's taught me is that I have to load a video conference, go into the privacy settings, allow use of camera and microphone, then exit the video conference and load it again before anyone can see or hear me. I'm a consultant and talk to multiple clients all with their own video conference solution and having to do this every time I join a call where a client is using a different video conference solution is very unprofessional. The worst was using Teams where I had to close my browser before I could join the conference, after I had already queued up everything I needed for the call. So now everyone is waiting on me to re-open everything and reset the state for the demo. I never thought I'd miss Windows UAC.
- bobbylarrybobby 7y ago
  Surely this is the fault of the app and not macOS? I have plenty of apps that asked for those permissions once, got it, and never asked again.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    They’re not asking again but asking for the first time is what is disruptive because it forces you to close whatever application is requesting permissions. It’s sucks when WebEx does it but at least that only makes you close WebEx. Still a really poor design choice but not nearly as disruptive as browser-based tools that make you close your browser.

LordFast 7y ago

The quality of Apple's Apple's and software has been on a gentle downward trend since about 2015. I still prefer them for now, but eventually the cost/benefit ratio just won't make sense anymore. If I'm paying for crappy quality, I'd rather just buy cheap.

pier25 7y ago

None of our 5 macs at home have Catalina installed. We will stay with Mojave for the foreseeable future. It seems Apple is finally getting their shit together on the Mac hardware front. Now they need to do the same for macOS. Moving to yearly macOS releases was a bad idea.

bdcravens 7y ago

I installed it on my 16" yesterday - haven't seen any of the issues in the article yet.

neycoda 7y ago

This is what happens when you focus on features over functionality, get excited over "delighting" your customers over providing reliable products, and put visibility over stability. Steve Jobs had a nice balance of this, Tim Cook is just a numbers guy.

kd22 7y ago

Was going to update today, I guess I am going to be on my current 10.15.2 for a long time. 10.15.2 is quite stable and runs smooth enough with occasional freezes happening maybe once a month.

DrGeek 7y ago

Does it have any impact on the display? Well, roughly the lower half-inch portion of my display gets crazy randomly. Mine is a 13 inch 2017 MacBook Pro. Any remarks guys?

awzeemo 7y ago

One data point here - my late 2013 MacBook Pro (ME864LL/A) is fine with 10.15.4

wkoszek 7y ago

Eh. I'm so happy to now be alone. I really hope they'll hear it. I just sent my brand new MBP 16" back to Apple, because I believe that's what happened to me too. 2 weeks ago Friday an update fetched overnight messed me up--upon starting I got an installer with "27 minutes to go", then a login screen, and upon a login with my password, I got a pure-white-screen for 2-5s, then 2s of max-fan speed, and an instant reboot. And it went on to happen in the loop: login -> white screen -> reboot. Recovery mode + macOS reinstall = "Can't install macOS on this computer" To my that starts to match the definition of "bricked" already, because a normal person really can't probably recover from this at that point. Recovery mode (booted via USB drive) = "Installer is missing assets" (tried 2 USB drives, after re-downloading Catalina installer Recovery mode (booted via USB drive with Mojave) = this is not supported anymore Recovery mode -> Disk Utility -> First Aid -> run a FS check, turned out APFS volume is corrupted ("fsroot tree is invalid")... Target mode (went to BestBuy to get a special "SS+" certified USB-C cable, because of course a normal cable doesn't work) connected to my macOS Catalina Mac mini -> couldn't unencrypted the APFS partition enough though the password was correct. Read every possible target mode tutorial, and there's no mention about what Catalina did to Recovery Keys/User (other than them simply not being there), but you need to pass a UUID of a recovery used, and I only had some iCloud Recovery Keys there. Tried my MacBook password, my iCloud password etc. Nothing worked. Basically I couldn't un-encrypt the drive. Ended up just starting Recovery Mode again, mounting a separate USB disk from the Terminal, copied valuable stuff over. Removed all APFS volumes, tried to re-install on a fresh volumes. Nothing worked. Was getting the same issues from the installer. Gave up. Packed this $4k computer and sent it back to Apple. Writing this from my Mac mini, with Catalina, happily rejecting any updates. BTW, Catalina installer is a joke. It is broken since Catalina came out, and it's not getting any better.

neo1691 7y ago

I am having serious problems with WiFi. I have about six apple devices and my home wlan works perfectly for all of them except my MacBook Pro. It connects and then in some minutes there is no internet. No packets in no packets out. Tried everything. Tomorrow I do a hard reset. Nice way to spend my Easter holidays.

appleflaxen 7y ago

Since my power cord frayed (no strain relief due to aesthetics) to the point that it will no longer charge, my laptop has been off for a week. I've been protected from a major flaw by another, equally major flaw. I guess it's better than the alternative of getting hit by them both.

wisecoder 7y ago

Why i cannot find any ergonomic keyboard for mac?

intense_feel 7y ago

I can confirm that the revive via DFU works. It also works over normal USB (instead of usb-c) connector as I used my gf older mac pro late 2015. Be aware that you need at least Mojave 10.14.6+ as the app configurator can't be run/installed on previous versions. There is also a big difference in App configurator 2.10 vs the latest 2.12. On 2.10 (you can find dmg file on internet, but be careful about running untrusted software) you can restore BridgeOS on the chip without wiping the data. In version 2.12 it will wipe all data! Initially, I tried to restore the system via Virtualbox where I installed Mojave via Apple Configurator but that didn't work as it break during the revival of the last step because of the constant USB de-plugging from host/guest machine during the process. I think just the revival step in 2.12 should also work as it flashes also the bridge os and power it up which should avoid any data loss but don't take this for granted.

MrMacintoshBlog 7y ago

I am tracking the issue here. https://mrmacintosh.com/10-15-4-supplemental-update-bricking-small-number-of-t2-macs/ https://mrmacintosh.com/10-15-4-supplemental-update-bricking...