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Gates Foundation program will issue home testing kits for Covid 19 in Seattle
- glofish 7y agoIf anything sets a bad precedent, citizens starting testing themselves and each other, what could possibly go wrong (sarcasm)... Should we test for flu, cold as well? All other diseases? Should you only be allowed to be somewhere if you tested yourself within the last N hours ... etc .. because that is the next step, looking at each other with suspicion. When did you last test yourself? Did you not test yourself? Why not? What are you hiding? What kind of citizen are you? Get back there and start testing yourself. Are you going to test yourself every day? When you sneeze? In the morning, in the evening? Stop living in fear. Nothing will happen to you.
- patmorgan23 7y agoThis is FUD. Comprehensive testing and isolation is the only thing that can contain a pandemic. There's so little data available every additional point is valuable.
- glofish 7y agotesting should not be done Random Joe at home! there is tons of data, it helps no one when unqualified people add to the noise, you think it helps you, but the tragedy that it only makes things worse
- bobcostas55 7y agoThere is absolutely not tons of data, the CDC and FDA have been trying to manipulate the infection figures by preventing people from being tested. Have a look at this thread from a former FDA commissioner, which was posted on Feb 2(!) https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1224042220665307137 https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/12240422206653071... It took another month for things to seriously change after that was posted. South Korea, a nation of 50 million people, has tested 150,000. The US figure is hard to track but it's at around 2,000 right now. There are almost certainly thousands of people in the US who are infected but have not been tested.
- buzzert 7y agoPosting a link to twitter is a great way to instantly lose credibility.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ajross 7y agoThere is literally almost no data. We are barely testing at all in the US. And even if we were, the goal here isn't good science, it's preventing deaths. People who get tested "random Joe" at home and get a positive result are less likely to infect others.
- glofish 7y agoSomeone sitting in their house is testing themselves is not data! You are confusing data with a number that ticks up. Ha, another infected! Look DATA! The potential for misuse, abuse, panic and trouble is far bigger than you imagine. The problem here, with everyone, is that they think that the rest of the population will act like them. Take a test, then if positive but you are not showing any symptoms lay low for a week, avoid contact with others. This is the most common outcome of the disease, 99% of cases nothing will happen. You don't need to do anything at all, clears up on its own. For each one in a hospital, hundreds did not need care. But no, that's not what would happen at all if the population started self-testing itself. Everyone positive, yet in no need of medical care will rush the emergency, severely impacting health care providers - that will kill more people than COVID itself. The upheaval this self-testing can cause far exceeds whatever marginal benefits it would produce. The first rule of medicine: First, do no harm!
- eveningcoffee 7y agoCounter argument. Tests are probably not handed out without instructions about the protocol to follow (do not go to emergency, you will be sent back when you do not have severe symptoms etc). If these are not then you pointed out a clear improvement possibility, problem solved. I think the massive usage of self tests is a very economical way to contain the outbreak. No, I do not mean the price of the test, I mean the macro economics. Lock downs may be avoided because only infected people must be isolated but the rest can continue to function efficiently. Even if the containment is not possible by this, it may help to slow down the spread to the level where the health care system could handle severe cases (it is going to be very difficult when spread grows out of control - https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/ff8hns/testimony_of_a_surgeon_working_in_bergamo_in_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/ff8hns/testimony_... ). I think that not doing massive testing that is going to be only possible by self testing will create much larger harm. Edit: the method provided by Bill Gates is not a self test. It is just a way to collect samples. The test will be still done in the lab.
- legionof7 7y agoIf I could test myself continuously, I would. Why would you not?
- glofish 7y agobecause it never works like that, never that simple, there are always bigger costs in the end this will be used against you and others next thing you know you are not allowed on a bus if you haven't tested yourself today
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- wbronitsky 7y agoI think that the argument “it never works like that” should be coupled with at least one data point. I don’t think it’s helpful to dismiss other commenters based upon simply your opinion, and not a set of facts we can all inspect together.
- glofish 7y ago"never works like that" was meant to reflect that naive, knee jerk solutions never account for all the complexities of the problem and do more harm than good. distributing COVID tests to the population is a ridiculous idea that does not do anything but create more panic and trouble. The problem that needs a solution has nothing to do with whether Random Jane can or cannot (in the privacy of their home) determine if they are infected. For what is worth, there are people out there, not even few, that would knowingly seek to infect others especially if they themselves suffer almost no effects from the disease. They would do it just for the "lulz". Have you considered that? Being infected, knowing it and suffering no ill effects is an evil superpower.
- wbronitsky 7y agothere are still no facts and no sources in your argument. I cannot and will not engage in this sort of meaningless argumentation without data. Please stop
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoYou're not thinking clearly here. Home disease tests in the form of a thermometer are very common; the "next steps" you describe simply don't happen outside of pandemic situations, even though there's no technological or legal reason they couldn't.
- glofish 7y agothe analogy is not even remotely valid taking someone's temperature is a well-known concept with long tradition - fever is not something that started occurring in the last two weeks. if people would did not know what fever meant and how they should act based on a reading on a thermometer what benefits would distributing thermometers have?
- efficax 7y agoSure, just sending my DNA off to the Gates foundation. Why not
- appleflaxen 7y agothe irony is that if these are not already FDA-approved devices, then selling them (and even giving them, I think) to consumers will be illegal. it seems clear that the regulations would be harming the public interest and should not be enforced, but you could imagine a scenario where there was a politician with a political grudge against a liberal city like Seattle.
- tomcam 7y agoNot anymore. That restriction has been removed [PDF link]: https://www.fda.gov/media/135659/download https://www.fda.gov/media/135659/download
- spectramax 7y agoThis is great news. We can learn from this pandemic that during Public Emergencies, humanity needs to come together and defeat our threat - democracies are thought of as a "giant ship" that's impossible to move during emergencies and cannot compete with authoritarian regimes such as China where a drone escorts you back to your own house; this kind of exclusionary and temporary exceptions backed by scientific consensus and truth (which is often clouded by the fog of authoritarian stronghold on censorship), we can be as nimble and come out more educated than ever. Emergency powers in the western democracies (North America and Europe) are an important aspect of governance and should be routined examined for effectiveness (mock exercises and simulations), efficiency and combating the threat during the most dire times. Coronavirus is not an existential threat but as a thought exercise we can imagine one that has a serious chance of killing 50% of the earth population. Or some serious evil on planet is threatening human existence on earth - incoming asteriod or terrorist organization with AI capabilities. I sound like an alarmist, I know, but the point of this thought exercise is not to induce panic but build a better governance system that can protect the public without giving up civil liberties.
- bawolff 7y agoNot really that clear. Im sure the gates foundation is pretty legit, but if scammers started selling home testing kits that didn't work that could definitely be a threat to the public interest.
- extralegos 7y agoFeudalism
- tomcam 7y agoAh, a little explanation would help
- extralegos 7y agoFeudalism is an pre-industrial, primarily agrarian system of socioeconomic relations in which peasants farm land controlled by nobility in exchange for military protections. In Feudalism, the single incentive for the nobility to protect the peasant is the exchange value of the product of the peasant’s labor. Feudalism is best known for it’s lack of democratic relations.
- tomcam 7y agoDon’t understand its connection to your grandparent comment
- speedgoose 7y agoHe is comparing the society in USA where many people work hard for very few rich people which in return offer charity to feudal societies.
- natalyarostova 7y agoTech feudalism sounds pretty good about now. I trust bill gates to manage this far more than I trust our government, which so far has been worthless.
- tanto 7y agoI don't get why the people elect presidents and parties whom interestst clear don't align with theirs. They elect people which promise them they will basically destroy governmental institutions and THAN complain the the government doesn't work. That's like ordering poisoned food and than complaining about the cook...
- excerionsforte 7y agoLow cost home testing kits can go beyond SARS-COV2 and track other diseases all from the safety of your home. Why go to the hospital where you could possibly be infected by other people with infectious diseases or infect the people around you. Personally, if it is low cost enough that I don't need to use health insurance then I am all for it. Health insurance is good enough until surprise they don't want to cover you or you get surprise bills in the mail from the hospital. Gates Foundation is absolutely forward thinking. I like it a lot.
- aplummer 7y ago> Health insurance is good enough until surprise they don't want to cover you or you get surprise bills in the mail from the hospital. Constantly amazed this can be a thing in a first world country. Can this actually happen?
- inferiorhuman 7y agoYes
- Operyl 7y agoAll the damn time. It’s so infuriating.
- vikramkr 7y agoYeah it's pretty common. There's a reason health insurance is such a big political discussion in the US
- whymauri 7y agoA close friend of mine's wife paid their health insurance for decades, without fail. Their employer changed the insurance provider without notification, but somehow they continued paying the wrong provider. She recently got breast cancer, and now the new provider is denying all claims on the basis that she was paying the wrong provider. They are basically screwed now after maintaining a non-deliquent relationship with their healthcare provider for longer than I've been alive. If this is not emblematic of what's wrong with our healthcare... IDK what is.
- fortran77 7y agoBill Gates is a great man.
- generalpass 7y agoSpending his money to protect himself from contracting illness. And the objectivists rejoiced.
- 29athrowaway 7y agoSure. But foundations and philantropy also happen to be great for tax purposes.
- mrosett 7y agoYou realize that if someone gives away X dollars, it reduces their tax liability by <X?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pengaru 7y agoI believe it's more nuanced than that. When you're a billionaire you're probably very diversified, and such foundations can serve as convenient vehicles for shuttling money between interests while giving a tax advantage and buying social favor, and who knows, you might manage to actually help some people along the way. Hypothetical example: Gates sits on the board of the medical company producing covid test kits and holds a large stake. So he directs his foundation to buy huge quantities of the kits and give them away. Gets a number of birds stoned at once.
- scarejunba 7y agoHere's something I could say about these accusations: "Interesting, this sounds like something a Koch-funded hit-job on Gates would say. In fact, it also sounds like what a spokesperson for Big Hand Sanitizer would say. Or really, if you think about it, if there are aliens immune to SARS-CoV-2 who want to cleanse the earth, this is a reasonable first attempt as they gauge our reactions." It is easy to generate adversarial hypotheses with non-zero probability. But that's not an intelligent way to live one's life. It leads to poor life outcomes if effort is not spent on those hypothetical outcomes proportional to their likelihood (and I suspect, in this case, merely stating the hypothesis has exceeded that effort threshold).
- SubiculumCode 7y agoI am scheduled to give a talk at large science conference in Seattle this May. I have a feeling its going to get canceled though. :/
- DangerousPie 7y agoI would be pretty surprised if this was going ahead at this point.
- SubiculumCode 7y agoYeah there is talk of conducting the conference via streaming. Ha!
- fancyfredbot 7y agoThis is very admirable of Bill, but it seems odd that the world's biggest economy is reliant on hand-outs to keep its citizens healthy.
- zyang 7y agoI wonder how long before trump start claiming credits for this.
- eeh 7y agoI think many countries could benefit from home testing. The US is perhaps just easier to trial this technology for the Gates foundation, for whatever reason. Perhaps the plan is to trial/roll this out elsewhere if it succeeds.
- TotempaaltJ 7y agoNote that GP _isn't_ criticizing the home testing, or the fact that Gates is distributing home tests in the US.
- offmycloud 7y agoTo me, it seems odd that government would have a monopoly on anything in health care. Non-profits can play a very valuable role in exposing inefficiencies in large bureaucracies.
- fancyfredbot 7y agoI don't think I implied governments should have a monopoly over health care? There are many other options. For example, I'm wondering why isn't health insurance covering testing? It'd save them money if it helped limit the spread of disease.
- orblivion 7y agoIt would make sense if everybody were insured. However they really would want everyone to get tested, not just their customers, for the reason you cited. If anything, they should be incentivized to make their own foundation to give it away, like Bill Gates is. Car insurance companies have pooled together to form the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety for crash tests. So such things can come about.
- bshoemaker 7y agoOur government is led by idiots, this is the result
- m0zg 7y agoHate to break it to you, but nearly all governments are led by idiots who don't know anything and don't care to know. Becoming a non-idiot is hard, time consuming work that's incompatible with politics needed to get elected into a public office. At least our executive branch had enough common sense to ban flights from China on Jan 31st (and was panned by the "free press" and Democrats in congress for it at the time). Had they not, we'd be dealing with tens of thousands of infections and thousands of deaths by now, as exemplified by Italy.
- DangerousPie 7y agoAnd yet somehow most other countries have still managed to come up with a significantly more competent response. Germany is tracing contacts of all cases and has capabilities to test 20,000 people per day. How many is the US testing right now? And that's a country with 1/3 the population. There are probably thousands of infections in the country already, we just don't know it yet.
- m0zg 7y ago> Germany Now try Italy or South Korea. Germany still has twice as many cases as the US, and 7.5x as many cases per million of population (12.1 vs 1.6 CPM in the US). Proximity to Italy doesn't do them any favors. To their credit though, they have zero deaths. If you order the stats by cases per million, the US comes in 40th, so containment doesn't suck too bad, compared to others. By deaths it's the 5th though - the main cluster basically took out a bunch of very old, medically problematic folks at a senior care facility. As the officials from the facility said, about 7 people die there per month under the normal circumstances, but this month they were additionally hit with the coronavirus. Bad luck.
- palmy 7y ago
- nudq 7y agoThey're probably incentivized towards erring in favor of false positive results (in order to avoid liabilities) thereby contributing to the panic element around this virus.
- joe_the_user 7y agoKorea is doing drive-through testing with results available in three days. [1] That the US is still at the level of doing testing in a private and haphazard fashion is effectively criminal and seems likely to have a serious impact fairly soon. The US had a difficult time even testing all the workers at the nursing home in Washington where 11 people died.[2] [1] https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-korea-uses-drive-thru-stations-to-test-for-covid-19-11950955 https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-korea-uses-driv... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/coronavirus-nursing-home.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/coronavirus-nursing-ho...
- wintorez 7y agoI think this epidemic will expose a lot of weaknesses in public health sector globally. Hopefully, we will learn valuable lessons, but I wished we didn't have to learn them at the cost of losing numerous lives.
- officialjunk 7y agowhat is scary to me is that the average american seems to be ignoring this and are more scared of lice and bedbugs, which are not lethal. telling folks to treat this as worse than lice and bedbugs, has worked in waking up some of my acquaintances. i think because it triggers more of an emotional response, though just a guess.
- hnick 7y agoAnd its interaction with social safety nets in general. Staying alone for 14 days in self imposed quarantine is a potential death sentence anyway for many in our JIT hand-to-mouth sectors of society.
- jacobolus 7y agoIn the USA maybe we can bring back the pandemic response command chain in the executive branch of the federal government who were all summarily fired in 2018 because the president and his national security advisor didn’t want to keep “people who sit around doing nothing most of the time” (paraphrased) on payroll. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/05/10/top-white-house-official-in-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0...
- Gatsky 7y agoThis is really important, especially in countries where flu season is coming. At the same time, I’ve been reading papers in top journals about various clever technologies to do rapid (ie <60 minutes) detection of pathogens for years. The latest was using crispr [1]. None of them seem to have left the lab, PCR is still it. Final point, nanopore sequencers are ideal for rapid home testing, and you get the actual sequence. They are a bit too expensive unfortunately. https://nanoporetech.com/products/minion https://nanoporetech.com/products/minion [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00601-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00601-3
- john_minsk 7y agoHow expensive are they? I don't see the price behind your link
- claudeganon 7y agoFrom what I’ve seen, a lot of the false negatives with these tests comes from the fact they require two swabs (nose and throat) that must be performed thoroughly/correctly in order to get a viable sample. I wonder how home testing will impact efficacy.
- ckdarby 7y agoSource please, couldn't find this information anywhere saying this.
- claudeganon 7y agoIt’s a long standing problem with these kind of rapid diagnostics for respiratory illnesses: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rapid-flu-tests-only-50-to-70-percent-accurate-cdc-says/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rapid-flu-tests-only-50-to-70-p... Doing two swabs helps mitigate this, as does comparing anal and oral swabs. Here’s a more thorough breakdown: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/22221751.2020.1729071 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/22221751.2020.1...
- williesleg 7y agoWhat about finding a cure, there, Billy Boy? Why just test kits? Afraid of big Pharma knowing you have a cure for the common cold? Edit: Looks like Amazon has it https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/amazon-is-secretly-working-on-a-cure-for-the-common-cold.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/amazon-is-secretly-working-o... Unfortunately they won't publish the link that corona virus is the common cold so it'll be buried.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoStarve the beast is working as intended. Mission accomplished.
- sitkack 7y agoWhat the parent is referencing is the Republican strategy to defund government services, and then point to how ineffective they are, thus providing justification for privatization. https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/amid-coronavirus-outbreak-trump-proposes-slashing-cdc-budget/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/amid-coronavirus-out...
- zaroth 7y agoExcept these agencies have never had so much funding as they do now. Its hard to put a finger on exactly why they seem entirely incapable of fulfilling their central mission during this crisis. Why were the test kits botched? Why was testing so artificially limited? Why do the primers seem poorly designed? Why does the contact tracing seem to be so behind the ball? Etc. I think political finger pointing is easy and maybe even satisfying but not helpful or particularly enlightening.
- mattkrause 7y ago> never had so much funding as they do now. "Now" is the operative word. You can't just put a government agency in cold storage and thaw it out when you need it. If the budget and leadership get slashed (as they were in 2018), people move on, hard-won lessons get forgotten, and they take a while to get back. If this happens repeatedly, you lose the ability to attract talented people for a long time.
- nl 7y agoPolitico has a good piece[1], but with no real answers. But neither the CDC nor the coronavirus task force chaired by Vice President Mike Pence would say who made the decision to forgo the WHO test and instead begin a protracted process of producing an American test, one that got delayed by manufacturing problems, possible lab contamination and logistical delays. This seems to give some kind of explanation of what was going on: But there were additional problems with the administration’s approach to testing, according to experts and former officials. From the start, the White House focused on containment, trusting that a limited ban on travel to and from China could somehow force a fast-moving virus to stop cold when it hit the Chinese border. But, while containment might have helped buy the U.S. some time, without aggressive domestic surveillance through testing, it was an incomplete strategy. Except that doesn't really explain why the CDC didn't do it's job. Surely the White House wasn't actively stopping disease surveillance? [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing-failure-123166 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing...
- pneill 7y agoWhat’s the point of testing? There is no treatment. So knowing you have it or not is pointless. If you have it, and it’s serious, you’ll seek medical attention regardless of whether you know it or not. When you see the ridiculous on hand sanitizer and toilet paper, even if there was an over the counter version, you wouldn’t be able to find one in the store.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- chippy 7y ago"Whats the point of testing if you are a healthy 20 year old caring with 85 year olds" This sums up the silicon valley mindset for EVERYTHING. If you find it hard to understand what I am meaning the be worried.
- pneill 7y agoSo you’re just going to test yourself constantly? If you experience symptoms for any illness and you care for seniors, you should remove yourself from care. No need to test.
- im3w1l 7y agoDon't people have low level symptoms basically all the time? Like if you add up all the times your throat feels a little bit sore, or nose is a little bit stuffed or you cough a few times a day or you have a bit of a headache or you feel a little bit lacking in energy... That should add up to like half a year. So I'm not sure if what you are proposing is realistic.
- dboreham 7y agoSymptoms are fever and a dry cough (no runny nose, no sneezing). At least for me and my family that happens basically never.
- scarejunba 7y ago
- eyegor 7y agoI feel torn posting this, but it seems like the US president is truly trying to go against the country's interests at every turn. The only non malicious explanation I can come up with for the covid response is a gamble in the hopes that somehow the economy will tank less if the outbreak is marginalized. So far: lack of testing, lack of screening at intl airports, lack of quarantine for the latest cruise ship, constantly decrying "it's no big deal". Also influencing the cdc, not letting the actual experts handle the situation, cutting their budget, and telling the head what they can and cannot say in press conferences. The US is on track to be steamrolled by this disease. Edit: there are currently only 164 recognized cases, but spread among 19 states, and 110 have unknown cause. Source: cdc, updated March 7.
- jacobolus 7y agoIt’s not that the president wants citizens to die per se. It’s just that he is incapable of understanding/comprehending the threat we are dealing with, and is also acutely sensitive to perceived threats to his own personal fortune or reputation, which are his #1 priority in every situation. This is a good reason to have people with basic quantitative competence (or at least folks willing to listen to experts with quantitative competence) and a certain amount of imagination in leadership roles.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- D2187645 7y agoUs has 55x+ cases according to the arcgis john hopkins tracker. 70 workers at the nursing home alone have symptoms now.
- cma 7y agoAnd I believe the asymptomatic workers are continuing working, without test results (at least as of yesterday). Hopefully they have PPE.
- koenigdavidmj 7y agoWe need some states to just start defying the CDC and doing whatever testing they deem necessary. With media backlash and sympathetic juries, no court case will actually succeed if the feds try to charge them with anything, and this is a life-or-death matter. Italy is a first world nation doing testing, and even they are swamped—what will we be in a week?
- abductee_hg 7y agois anybody surprised? availability seems not the be the problem, you can order them since 3 weeks ago from alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=covid+19+test https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product... or, if you prefer from italy: https://www.screenitalia.it/test-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://www.screenitalia.it/test-coronavirus-covid-19/ the problem here seems to be of an organisational nature...
- peter303 7y agoNumerous articles about $4000 fees if test done at ER. https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/02/why-are-we-being-charged-surprise-bills-coronavirus-testing-spark-calls-government https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/02/why-are-we-bein... The new fed law and my state make the test itself free, but dont address the high service charge at some medical centers. Sick people might be reluctant to test as early as they should.
- mgleason_3 7y agoSeattle's lucky to have a benefactor, though it may highlight yet again the stark differences between the have's (in this case a rich tech companies) and have not's - everyone else.
- animalnewbie 7y agoI don't expect much from trump but I'm mad at Newsom at this point. Why can't he do something about Cali?
- magma17 7y agoare they iot devices that send a positive to authorities and get you in quarantine?