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Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

eitland 7y ago
Just when you think that Microsoft has learned to sit quiet when Google is busy messing up. Nope. Not this time either. Have to keep up with Google.
rafaelvasco 7y ago
Never saw these adds, as I disabled it all. But that's ridiculous.
- moksly 7y ago
  Building adds into the start menu search is ridiculous.
  - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
    How do normal people (who use Windows) think that this is ok? In what universe is that possibly ok - to put ads in a paid-for OS? No matter the context, no matter the version of an os, no matter the reason, no matter what the ads are for, no matter that they could through some questionable hacking or editing be removed - ads in a paid-for OS. Has the whole world gone crazy? What is going on here?
    - TremendousJudge 7y ago
      If you are used to ads everywhere now, why would you be surprised to see them in Windows? I mean for a "normal" person the argument against would probably make sense, but it probably won't jump in front of their eyes as a jarring thing
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - prox 7y ago
      My gripe is the following; How did we get to the point where people have to say (from the article) “I need Chrome for work” The more I read this the more we, as developers should start steering towards true open source solutions.
    - acollins1331 7y ago
      No it's just going back to normal. Remember when you paid for tv and still watched ads?
    - polotics 7y ago
      Clearly you're right. 2020 for me is the year of Linux on the laptop.
    - jraph 7y ago
      > How do normal people (who use Windows) think that this is ok? I have several hypotheses: - Some people don't even think about it. Many probably don't see there is a political aspect to browsers. What harm is there in suggesting something? It's not even clear that it is an ad, they are not going to buy Edge, it's free. What's more, they may only know one OS and take whatever they are provided with as is without any critical look. They probably trust their computer (yeah, and this is scary, but since the system shows this ad, some will probably take it as good advice to follow, and Microsoft is very wrong doing this because they know it). - Some are accustomed to ads. Some may even ignore them without knowing. Some people probably notice but don't care. By the way, why shouldn't a computer display ads in its UI if you are not against the idea of ads? (I personnally hate ads) - Some probably think it's not okay, but possibly forget about it and get on with their lives anyway, and/or don't tell anybody about it, so we would not even know whether people think it is ok.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I will go out on a limb and say “normal people” do not consider this an advertisement. The ad itself is a basically an icon, just like all the pre-bundled icons for Office, that are presented as an option to use, and in this case the thing doesn’t even cost money. Despite the emphasis and importance some people (and most of HN reader fall here) place on privacy, the general desktop user base does not care. As a closing anecdote, my office just upgraded everyone to Windows 10. My boss was still using Internet Explorer as his browser of choice. He was furious that he now couldn’t use his Hotmail menu bar and auto connect to his aol.com email by default anymore. He doesn’t have a clue or care about which browser he’s using, he just wants his things the way he likes. Privacy is not even a passing concern. He’s now on Edge.
      - choward 7y ago
        I would also like to add that "normal people" don't even realize they paid for Windows since it came pre-installed on their computer.
    - profmonocle 7y ago
      > In what universe is that possibly ok - to put ads in a paid-for OS? People have been accepting ads in paid products/services for generations. Cable TV channels have always had them, as have newspapers/magazines. Most movie theater chains run their own ads these days (not just trailers). It's easy to see why Microsoft is dipping their toes into this - sadly, consumers don't seem to mind so much
    - KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
      Isn't windows free now?
      - Juminuvi 7y ago
        I think pretty much. If you have a PC that has ever have any form of activated windows on it in the past it should activate a windows 10 install. So this would prob only exclude people building on new hardware which are considered oem anyway.
      - moksly 7y ago
        Not really, I have a stationery that is pretty much an expensive gaming console, and I paid around $115 to get a Windows version on it. So it’s really sort of disgusting when it pre-installs various free-to-play installers or uses the start search menu for advertisements. Hell, after years of having used *nix as my primary OS on my personal development laptop, I switched it to a surface pro 6 last year. I’m fairly certain these things is going to push me back to a Linux laptop.
    - Kunigaikstis 7y ago
      - Linux isn't very user friendly to begin with, whether it's in the form of OS usage or apps that you're used to. - A lot of people, including myself, grew up with Windows. Switching right now, after tens of years of usage, seems unnecessary still. - WARNING, personal opinion: Windows is the only platform for gamers.
      - rafaelvasco 7y ago
        Yeah, only reason I'm staying with Windows for the foreseeable future is because of the much superior app and games support compared to other platforms. Would have no problem going for Linux if it supported all my apps, steam catalog etc. I know things been improving in this area. For games, what must happen is the advent of a full cross platform graphics abstraction. WebGPU is a promising one. Vulkan too. But it's a very hard problem.
      - grazhero99 7y ago
        I disagree that Windows is the only platform for gamers. Obviously wine isn’t perfect yet, and getting banned from online games can certainly be a problem, but it’s gotten to the point I can say that Linux is viable alternative. The compromises you have to make are incredibly reasonable compared to what they used to be.
    - will4274 7y ago
      Normal people buy Cable. Paid+ads is a valid business model used by many firms. It doesn't surprise me at all that _consumers_ are willing to purchase an OS product with ads - it does surprise me that no ad-free version is available for enterprises at additional cost.
    - userbinator 7y ago
      "normal" users somehow end up with dozens of toolbars and adware and related crap anyway, which they don't mind at all, so MS taking another piece of that pie doesn't really look anything out of the ordinary to them.
  - rafaelvasco 7y ago
    Absolutely agree.
Slashbot 7y ago
Those idiots at Mozilla have driven away there power users and third party developers.. with all there hair brained choices over the years... Fuck Em Right now is the only choice is which Chromium clone you want to use.. Frankly Vivaldi shits and pisses on all of them.
fctorial 7y ago
Some sleep deprived developer typed firefox instead of internet explorer.
- giancarlostoro 7y ago
  Honestly the way it reads it was probably intended for Internet Explorer users but it smartly chose to display the default browser. Would love to see if it shows different for someone with only Chrome or Chrome as a default, vs someone with IE still installed.
aneutron 7y ago
Microsoft doing shady stuff again. It's really a shame. The engineering that the teams at Microsoft put to the kernel and the actual operating system at large is amazing. But then some Product Management division decides to shove this shit down people's throat and, for me at least, ruins all the fun of what would is otherwise an amazing piece of an operating system. I paid for an operating system, just let me use the damn thing in peace will you ...
- tracker1 7y ago
  I feel largely the same... they build some really cool things, and developer division, the azure guys and .net core guys I've talked to are all great... why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things, I don't get. Just auto-update edge and put it in a pinned taskbar position with a new icon and a notification bubble... no need to disparage anything, it'd be more assertive and less annoying at the same time.
  - oblio 7y ago
    > Why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things, I don't get. It smells of desperation on the product management side of things. They can't show growth anymore. I'm not saying they should just give up, but folks, be a bit more dignified over there. Your company's doing great and Windows still does a pretty decent job in many places, cut the crap... At some point you have to accept that Windows is the mature partner, not the hot 20-year old :-D
  - Kwantuum 7y ago
    > put it in a pinned taskbar position with a new icon and a notification bubble [...] less annoying I have to disagree here. Messing with people's pinned taskbar icons is much more intrusive than a suggestion (which anyone sane has already disabled) > why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things I'm sorry but that's pretty funny right before suggesting to literally change users settings without their consent.
    - brianzelip 7y ago
mcherm 7y ago
Does anyone know enough to comment on how this jives with the settlement that Microsoft reached with the EU around 2010 over accusations of leveraging their monopoly in operating systems to drive user choice in browsers?
- despera 7y ago
  Considering that the browser choice UI first "neglected" and then removed from Windows we can safely call this another EU bubble.
tracker1 7y ago
Not as bad as the one they put over the top of a pinned chrome icon on the start menu a few times.
bubblethink 7y ago
Purely from the meme perspective, I think the "Still using X ? Y is here" phrase has some value. Sort of like those jokes about how if IE can ask you to be the default browser, you can do X.
egdod 7y ago
> Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installing the new browser and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. And of course, many remind that it’s possible to disable suggestions in the Start menu to block such “ads” from showing up again. Gotta wonder if that’s astroturfing.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  No, from experience the users are often earnest in their madness. But you can keep your faith in humanity a little bit, since this was posted on the windows 10 subreddit. To their defense, Chrome and Firefox both have bad settings menues that slowly adjust themselves to match Edges horribleness. And it is not only power users complaining about the mess.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Yes, still using Firefox because Edge is complete shite. Thank you for asking. And now please remove yourself, unnecessary and unhelpful start menu.
- jefftk 7y ago
  Are you talking about the old Edge or the new one? The new Blink-based Edge is pretty good, and doesn't have the lingering incompatibilities of old EdgeHTML.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    The old Edge to be fair. I don't think it is that bad, but the html engine would be the least of my concern. Only rarely do I create websites and Edge gave me no problems here. I don't like its restrictive and opinionated settings. Some criticism has been adressed but I don't have an incentive to switch. Because I believe bad habits of MS resurface as soon as enough people do so. I have seen that it got better, but it just isn't enough. I don't use an online account for my OS because that would be silly, so some of its functions aren't even accessible. Overall it just cannot be configured to my liking. It is usable, but certainly no Firefox.
alxlaz 7y ago
This, and every other screw-up in the same vein, is why those of us old enough to remember the Halloween documents don't buy the whole "new Microsoft" thing. Want to get me to try Edge? Great -- instead of a passive-aggressive ad, try telling me how it's better than Firefox and why I'd like to use it instead. What will it get me? Better privacy? Better performance? Better development tools? Cynically, it's amazing that Microsoft collects so much personal data about each user -- and yet its "target" ads are hopelessly generic and tasteless. Also, leaving the matter of whether or not I should even be seeing ads after I paid for the damn thing aside, the company that brought us Internet Explorer is the last one that should crack jokes about other browsers, even if they're good (which this one isn't).
- iso1631 7y ago
  Over the last couple of years I've been coming round to the fact that microsoft aren't necessarily a major problem now, compared to google and amazon at least. Doesn't take much to put the shields back upto full. I just don't understand why people run windows. Maybe I just use computers wrong, having been on linux for the last 20 years, but my family (who I refuse to help with IT needs) are all far happier on chromebooks than on windows
  - alxlaz 7y ago
    > I just don't understand why people run windows. I've used Linux for about the same time and honestly, I understand it completely. I would switch, were it not for muscle memory and for the fact that at least 50% of my work involves systems-level development for Linux (mainly embedded stuff, so a lot of cross-compiling). In the last five or six years I've come to dread the Linux desktop and its constant churn of rewrites and UX "improvements". I have a Windows machine that I use for work the other half of the time and honestly... it's great. Yeah, the occasional update breaks some fringe feature. But the chances of something like waking up to the announcement that Microsoft is removing desktop icons in the next update and you can just install this third-party application for it (which will break with every update) are practically zero. Microsoft puts out a lot of broken stuff (some of which slowly morphs into non-broken, useful stuff over time, e.g. Powershell), but you can mostly be assured that, if something works today, it'll work ten years from now, modulo some registry hacks. That's incredibly valuable. I really don't care about things like UI consistency and whatnot -- what I do care about is stability and functionality. Edit: tbh, the main reason why I'm not switching today is that I don't really trust this whole OS-as-a-service model. If it were Windows 2000 instead of Windows 10, I wouldn't think twice before switching, but these are different times. (More edit: please realize that I'm the same person who posted this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917 , yeah?)
moomin 7y ago
Reminder that “New” Microsoft Edge is just Chrone with different spyware. So yeah, I’m still using Firefox thanks.
- gruez 7y ago
  I’ve heard that it still contacts google domains (probably because msft didn’t replace everything), so it’s more like google AND Microsoft spyware.
  - fluidcruft 7y ago
    We're only just now entering the embrace stage.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    Are those just for “Google Safe Browsing”, or for other purposes as well?
  - smileybarry 7y ago
    MSFT replaced every API from what they've said, including Safe Browsing (it uses SmartScreen now): https://www.ghacks.net/2019/04/09/microsoft-edge-google-features-disabled/ https://www.ghacks.net/2019/04/09/microsoft-edge-google-feat...
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  FWIW, Microsoft did add tracking prevention tools much like Firefox and Safari have. So they did add the common browser feature Google refuses to integrate. Privacy-minded people who insist on using Chrome should switch to Edge over Chrome. But I refuse to contribute to the Chromium monoculture.
  - swebs 7y ago
    No they shouldn't. They should switch to Firefox or Safari. Or at the very least Chromium (from a Linux package manager).
pcdoodle 7y ago
This is exactly why I switched to Mac and no longer use Windows for Point of Sale and NVR installs.
- fortran77 7y ago
  Did you get angry when there was an ad for iCloud during the install process?
eternalny1 7y ago
Back to the anti-competitive behavior that got them in trouble years ago. Someone inside Microsoft at a senior level needs to intervene here with the marketing teams and tell them to stop.
- Delmania 7y ago
  How is this different than getting an ad for Chrome when you go to google.com?
  - disiplus 7y ago
    you pay for windows and still get ads.
    - Spivak 7y ago
      You pay for TV and still get ads. I'm more than happy to pay to remove ads but I think it's presumptuous to assume that if you pay any amount of money it's expected that it will be ad free. I mean Red Hat has ads in their RHEL installer.
  - xenophonf 7y ago
    That's wrong, too, but the subject under discussion here is Microsoft.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
    Why should it be any different? Both are abuses of a monopoly position.
  - annadane 7y ago
    What is up with the recent wave of relativism-type comments? "Yes, Facebook is bad, but what about Reddit?" "Yes, Microsoft is bad, but what about Google?" etc etc They're not productive. Yet a ton of people are doing it. It almost smells like astroturf.
  - Vrondi 7y ago
    Because we paid money for this OS license, and we didn't go to Microsoft.com
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
One of the many reasons why I hate Windows 10. Just get out of my way and let me use my computer how I want. I'd put on my "smug Linux user" hat but to be honest my distro of choice (Ubuntu) has Amazon search integrated by default. The only saving grace is that it can be easily, completely, and permanently removed with just a couple of commands. Seriously considering a Macbook for my next computer at this point.
- maweki 7y ago
  Why is Ubuntu your distro of choice then? No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater by buying into Apple's walled garden.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
    Because Ubuntu is still the closest you get to "it just works" for Linux Desktops. (Not claiming you actually get there, just close).
    - maweki 7y ago
      I think this is quite a misconception. I've used Ubuntu for years and it basically broke on me with every major version upgrade. I have never ever hat a Fedora system bail out on me in that manner and I have multiple PCs. My Dad and my Grandma's friends also use Fedora and they have yet to manage to break it and they are allowed to install software.
- sleepychu 7y ago
  That amazon integration is finally being removed! https://fossbytes.com/ubuntu-20-04-lts-drops-amazon-web-app/ https://fossbytes.com/ubuntu-20-04-lts-drops-amazon-web-app/
- teraku 7y ago
  My "smug Linux user" hat made me install Arch Linux on my private desktop. Still using ubuntu on my laptop and windows (urgh) at work. But also strongly considering Macbook for my next laptop.
fortran77 7y ago
I just installed and ran Firefox. I was presented with a page of ads: https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png Note that the "top sites" aren't my top sites. They're ads. And then there's an ad at the bottom.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  Unless you're personally donating large sums of money to Mozilla, you need to stop whining about their innocuous, non-spyware ads that are easily removed. Your alternative isn't some hypothetical "pure" browser. Your choices are Microsoft spyware, Google spyware, or presumably some Chinese spyware. Or Firefox, imperfect though it may be. There are now only two viable rendering engines left in the browser world, and Firefox Gecko is one of them.
  - fortran77 7y ago
    I wasn't whining about it. I was just pointing out that the people saying "Micrsoft is evil! Use Firefox" aren't telling the whole story. I don't mind either ad. Both are easily removed.
- jopsen 7y ago
  They could also show nothing.. Seems fairly harmless to me. But yes, it would be awesome if we could pay for an ad-free Firefox built by Mozilla.
solarkraft 7y ago
Just stop using it. I'm glad I have given it up a long time ago. It's like that person who keeps promising they will do better. They won't. Just stop wasting your time on Microsoft products.
solarkraft 7y ago
Still using Windows? Many wonderful Linux distributions are here.
- NexRebular 7y ago
  Still using linux? Many wonderful BSD and illumos systems are here.
  - betaby 7y ago
    With added security! Air-gaped, no WiFi 802.11AC for you.
GoToRO 7y ago
It's not anti-Firefox. It's anti-the-other-browser-that-you-use. It doesn't bother me at all. There are other, more serious things big corporations can do that make me worry.
DrScientist 7y ago
The prominence of the ad tells you how important browsers are both to revenue streams and computing experience. So many apps are now delivered over the web the OS is becoming increasingly irrelevant. The rise of the web has done more for the viability of desktop linux than anything else.
rafaelvasco 7y ago
I have to wonder who is responsible for this bs. I admire several aspects of Microsoft, but then things like this appear. It would be ok (barely) to promote the browser in the OS, but to mention a competitor explicitly is just bad.
mikegreenberg 7y ago
For all the good they are doing, you'd wonder there's some alterior motive. Reminded me to re-read this article: http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/ http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/
anonymou2 7y ago
still using Windows?
a3n 7y ago
"Ads in a paid-for OS!?!" Did you buy it and own it, or did you license it?
Shorel 7y ago
The old Edge is one of the best Epub readers I have ever used. The new Edge, I have no reason at all to use it over Firefox. I hope no banking website makes it necessary to use Edge, as it happened with previous Microsoft browsers.
- squaresmile 7y ago
  Yep, it's a shame that they removed it and actively prevented me from using it even though I still have old Edge on my system. Now I need to import epubs into Calibre to have a reasonable epub reader.
  - NoGravitas 7y ago
    [EPUBReader](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/epubreader/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/epubreader/) is an _okay_ ePub reader for Firefox. It's not fantastic, but it's good enough for ephemerally reading ePubs I don't want to put on my Kobo.
  - efreak 7y ago
    FBReader is available for windows, if you're looking for open source (keeping in mind that the Android version is no longer open source, so it's not the same FBReader). CoolReader is also available for windows. Personally, I actually prefer calibre's ebook reader; if you dislike it, but do use a Calibre library, Calibre Web [0] has a (IMO) fairly decent browser-based ebook reader [0]: https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web
chooseaname 7y ago
It is the Microsoft sleight of hand. One hand is showing you want you want to see; Open Source initiatives, developer glad-handing, etc. While the other hand does this.
- woofie11 7y ago
  It's more like hundreds of teams who don't talk to each other.
  - iaml 7y ago
    This old picture [0] doesn't seem to lose relevance, heh. [0] https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5 https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5
  - hnbroseph 7y ago
    So the hands dont speak to each other?
ChicagoDave 7y ago
I think Microsoft has every right to suggest their own browser. Chrome does it. Firefox does it. You have to opt out of the reminder. So you have to opt out of Start menu ads. Big deal. Can we focus on something slighty less trivial please?
- zulban 7y ago
  Firefox is a browser. Chrome is a browser. Windows is an operating system. Consider having a closer look at the IE anti-trust cases to better understand the difference.
  - tatersolid 7y ago
    The Google Search homepage isn’t a browser, but they stick an intrusive bar across the top of the screen instructing me to install Chrome. Google’s search monopoly is even greater than Microsoft’s OS monopoly was at its peak.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    Trying to special case an operating system as the reason this is so bad misses the point. The reason Google abuses it's home page to push Chrome is because Google controls the world's most popular home page. The reason Microsoft abuses it's operating system to push Edge is because Microsoft controls the world's most popular operating system (for desktops, anyways). This is not about what is an OS and what is a browser (and things like Chromebooks make that line super blurry anyways). It's about monopolies using their market dominance in one category (which ever it is) to illegally expand their presence in other categories.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  > opt out of Start menu ads. Big deal. Yes, yes it is.
ForHackernews 7y ago
Why are they attacking Firefox instead of Chrome? It seems really weird.
- Juminuvi 7y ago
  I think the article just sited an anecdotal example from one user who had Firefox installed. Maybe others with Chrome see Chrome instead? Or maybe ms is trying to play nice with Google to make edge chromium development easier.
- neogodless 7y ago
  I came here to discuss this. It probably doesn't need to be said, but the brains behind this marketing don't understand their users... assuming they are actually targeting Firefox. My guess would be that Firefox users mostly consist of people that know enough to not use Chrome or a Microsoft browser. And an ad won't change that. Chrome is the new IE as far as the default that everyone uses, so it would make sense if they targeted them. "Get the same browsing experience with better integration with Windows." (That's probably not true, but this is advertising, which never stopped anyone.)
givinguflac 7y ago
My god if apple did something like this people would burn cities down. Why do people still trust Microsoft when their OS is literally a native advertising and tracking tool now
- dannyw 7y ago
  You're literally banned from shipping non-WKWebKit browsers on iOS though...
- Pigo 7y ago
  Apple is a walled garden
- Juminuvi 7y ago
  Don't they? Don't they push out new apps which get installed and pinned to the Mac dock after almost every other update without asking first? I could be mistaken, I don't use macs every day.
- dooglius 7y ago
  Apple is way worse than this, they don't even allow other browsers to exist as anything but shells of theirs!
  - Vrondi 7y ago
    Firefox does run just fine on OSX.
    - rhodysurf 7y ago
      hes talking about iOS
- nickflood 7y ago
  On the other hand google search and youtube show the popup for Chrome when you use any other browser, and was showing for years, and yet nobody's mad at that pretty much identical anti-competitive bundling. But no, if Microsoft tries to prop up their 5% broser share, it's really really bad! (I like Microsoft more than Google)
ChicagoDave 7y ago
I’d also note that ten years ago this would be actual news. People just don’t care because Windows 10 is stable and Microsoft is probably the least evil, most admired, corporation on the planet. “Still bitching about Microsoft 2003? Try the new 2020 Microsoft!”
pergadad 7y ago
Weird end to the article. Seems Microsoft is paying some social media shills?
- NikkiA 7y ago
  Microsoft literally invented online astroturfing
nearmuse 7y ago
Still using Windows? Still using Office (360)? Still using GitHub? These aren't maybe exactly ripe for disruption, but since all of them have existed for ages now almost without any game-changing innovation these questions are very valid as well.
- choward 7y ago
  Those aren't even the worst. What about linked in?
  - holler 7y ago
    I still to this day haven't used LinkedIn and refuse to use it, simply because of the dark-patterns they employed years ago with abusive, intrusive, and unsolicited email invites.
ourmandave 7y ago
Will this even moving the needle on Chrome users?
globular-toast 7y ago
"Microsoft loves open source".
dooglius 7y ago
Would anyone bat an eye if, say, Thunderbird had a thing saying "Still using IE? Try Firefox."
hellofunk 7y ago
Ads built into an OS is such a massive antipattern.
hutattedonmyarm 7y ago
I recently got a similar "suggestion", see [0]. I was super mad, because I have turned the "show suggestions in start menu" setting turned off, so it felt like it's disrespectign my settings [0] https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/942/616/original/c5e386f986de0344.png https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/94...
Brave-Steak 7y ago
Who can I send an email to in the EU who's willing to investigate this? There's got to be some institution that gives a shit.
RabbiPires 7y ago
>Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installed the new browser, and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. Completely organic too, I presume.
metalliqaz 7y ago
I dread the web we will get if Firefox dies. Could you imagine the only major browser being created by the largest advertiser?
- nomadiccoder 7y ago
  Firefox is great as a product and even greater for this reason. All other browsers are either packaged with the OS (by the company selling the OS) or as you said.
- morsch 7y ago
  It doesn't take much creativity, to be honest.
- idoubtit 7y ago
  Firefox accounts for about 5% of browsers used. It's not dead, but far from thriving, and many web sites ignore Firefox to the point they are not compatible with it. Yet I have not seen a major impact of this quasi-disappearance.
  - metalliqaz 7y ago
    True but until very recently there was also Microsoft in the game.
CivBase 7y ago
Why Firefox? Chrome has a bigger market share to take. Edge is built on Chromium now so it should be a more familiar environment for Chrome users. Microsoft is in a position to compete with many of the integration features that make Chrome appealing to many users. Surely it makes more sense to target Chrome than Firefox.
- pawelk 7y ago
  Microsoft made me install Chrome just the other day. A company I work with decided to try MS Teams for communication and when I went there using Firefox, it simply refused to let me in and told me to get Chrome. They couldn't suggest Edge because I'm on Linux, so at least they did not require me to switch my OS. edit: after accepting the invite and setting up an account I can use the product just fine in Firefox.
  - Arnavion 7y ago
    Yeah, for some inane reason direct links to Teams channels, chats, etc block you if you don't have a Chrome UA. In reality the only thing that actually needs Chrome is calls (which don't work on FF even with a Chrome UA).
  - CivBase 7y ago
    I just kind of assumed the new Edge would work on Linux because it's built on Chromium. Now I have even more questions.
- soraminazuki 7y ago
  Maybe because driving Firefox out of relevance would result in one less browser vendor working on the privacy front.
nomadiccoder 7y ago
I love Firefox, I use it on every OS. I do use Chrome for accessing my RStudio server because the performance is significantly better. Chrome on Android also feels better than Firefox on Android but I use both interchangeably. I use Edge for reading PDFs on my windows PC because it is usually convenient and somewhat infrequent. Im not entirely convinced why, but think very strongly that it is important to diversify your software and hardware solutions. Additionally it seems prudent that one company doesn't own the full stack, this pushes me away from Edge and Safari.
Causality1 7y ago
I'm beginning to get tired of these shitbirds. Remember when "bad behavior" was bundling a web browser with your OS? How innocent we were.
oscarb92 7y ago
"still using Firefox?" no, still using Chrome ;)
theferalrobot 7y ago
The title seems misleading... how is saying, "still using firefox" Anti-firefox? It's just a fact that firefox hit its prime in terms of market share long ago. It's now at what like 4% market share and falling? Hell, 'Samsung internet' is about to pass it up.
- Yolta 7y ago
  Apparently, Microsoft deemed it popular enough to show ads targeting Firefox users
matteuan 7y ago
Screnshotted this some weeks ago: http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html It appears something like 10% of the times when I search for Chrome or Firefox. I find it shameful
z3t4 7y ago
Still using Xsomthing? That was so two months ago. Things move fast in the fashion cough software world. Meanwhile our OS has a pseudo terminal layer, and we are using x86 processors...
maxwellito 7y ago
This is pretty sad, but Apple was doing this as well. Less mean tho. But at every restart of Chrome, I had a notification to use Safari. https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968 https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968
- MagnumOpus 7y ago
  Google, Apple, Microsoft - the holy trinity of abusing dominant market positions. Would that change if they were broken up? Somehow my hunch is that the "independent" Edge or Chrome subsidiaries will immediately get roped into a gimme-data-or-else revenue agreement with the remainder of GOOG and/or MSFT...
swiley 7y ago
Windows 10 home is an active attack on the user and the enterprise version isn’t much better. I’m constantly shocked at how popular the OS continues to be.
bprasanna 7y ago
Not cool MS. Stunts like these will take a toll on TRUST! Why don't you target Chrome! Which is a bigger evil!?
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
Given that everything is Chrome nowadays and Firefox has a very small share of the market, this seems stupid. Maybe someone finished a task on the backlog from 2014.
slowmovintarget 7y ago
What's funny about this is they seem like they're way behind the times. A long time ago I switched to Firefox... it got worse (comparatively), and I switched to Chrome for everything, a long time ago. Google started disabling and neutering things like ad blocking, enforcing rules and settings with exceptions for Google domains. Firefox dramatically improved both its responsiveness and its security and privacy features. Last year, I switched back to Firefox. Why was Edge not a consideration? Because I use Macs everywhere except my gaming PC at home.
- 91edec 7y ago
  Edge runs on Mac
oefrha 7y ago
I’m certainly less triggered by this textual ad than Candy Crush Saga next the start menu even with my goddamn Pro license. Also it’s quite odd that Firefox is singled out.
- oefrha 7y ago
  Btw, I should add that the always-on OneDrive button placed in a prime spot of File Explorer so that you inevitably click on it by accident every so often which then launches OneDrive, plus the regular “security” nag that you aren’t backing up to OneDrive is way worse. Surprised no one even talks about this. (IIRC the OneDrive button can only be disabled via registry or group policy. Might not even be possible on Home Edition. Ridiculous.) Disclosure: I was actually a dedicated OneDrive user back in the days. Even wrote a full blown CLI suite for it. I pulled the crap out when they decided that unlimited = 1TB.
abdulmuhaimin 7y ago
This one simple ad destroyed any goodwill I have towards Microsoft.
runjake 7y ago
If you think this is bad now, wait until you see when/if they gain market dominance again. This is just a sad fact of (at least, US) corporations. Stock price, stock price, stock price. It even afflicts our beloved Apple. They pull the same tactics but somehow get a pass, most of the time.
Vrondi 7y ago
Microsoft's marketing teams have been crap, well, forever. They somehow always fail to make the public aware of their coolest features, while at the same time doing slimy stuff like this. I do sometimes wonder if they intentionally try to sabotage the company.
butterfi 7y ago
Here comes new Microsoft, same as old Microsoft.
twodave 7y ago
I think a big part of this is just human nature. Microsoft believes they have a superior browser. They have a large amount of influence due to their software platform. It's got to be super tempting to get the word out with your most direct means of advertising (in your product). I don't agree with it, but I understand it and even expect it. Recognizing this in other areas of life is super valuable, too. e.g. why is the dentist recommending X hipster toothpaste? Is it actually better? Or do they have a stake of some kind? Looking at your purchasing decisions in such a pessimistic (read: realistic) way can protect you from a lot of pseudo-science and other garbage you don't need in your life.
at-fates-hands 7y ago
I'm just wondering if this is Google pushing MS to do this, or if this is MS alone trying to make this happen. For all of the other MS branded products they push, I've never seen this for their other products. This really feels like Google pushing them somehow to do this. They really could've done this a ton of their other products and never have. The first "collaboration" with a known shady advertising company and then these start popping up? I can only conclude Google has a hand in this somehow.
antisthenes 7y ago
I'm staying on W7 until extended paid support ends (W10 doesn't do anything for me functionality-wise.) W7 is incidentally the only MS product I ever paid money for (student copy of Pro for $30) Then I'm switching to Linux. Ads on individual websites I can tolerate, but not in an OS.
pgt 7y ago
If Satya is listening, my next machine was going to be a Windows box, but this is the fastest way to lose my business as a developer.
paulcarroty 7y ago
Is there a way to buy ad directly on Windows desktop yet? It will be very interesting for software promotion [irony]. MS seems like don't care for desktop users 'cause monopoly. Seems like my decision to avoid their products was positive.
fraktl 7y ago
This will be unpopular but I don't care - I see nothing shady. They're promoting their product. In the era when we're lied to at every corner of internet, I see nothing wrong with Microsoft promoting their new and AWESOME browser. Sadly, despite my love for Mozilla and Firefox, Edge is superior browser for me. It looks better, it works faster, it uses less memory and its developer console is much snappier, detailed and I am used to working with it. I'm sure there are people who would say the same about Firefox. I would love for Firefox to be the best browser, both technically and subjectively. But it isn't (yet, and again - for ME). Having hated Microsoft for a long time and having thought of Google as godsend, my opinion has changed in 2020. Microsoft did some amazing things for OSS community and for us web developers (Typescript, VSCode, Edge, Github.. I can stop here but there's more). I actually recommend Edge to other people. The wording Microsoft chose might not be the best, but what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? What would the titles be then? "Trillion dollar company inept in promoting their latest and best product. Shareholders stumped." By the way, the site that reports the issue (softpedia) loads ads and unwanted cookies. Using the same SJW logic, could I discredit their misleading title based on the source of their revenue?
- icebraining 7y ago
  > what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? Isn't Edge still actually bundled with Windows? How is that nothing? > SJW logic WTF?! What part of this is "SJW"? And how is their title misleading?
AegirLeet 7y ago
This kind of stuff is exactly why I'm not "upgrading" from Windows 7 to 10.
methehack 7y ago
It's back! The good old days of Micro$loth!
PretzelFisch 7y ago
They have a pretty good browser again, and this looks more like a play to get more bing search in front of more people. They make a lot of money with everly little % increases in add display. I am not sure I feel this is different then Google trying to get you to browser switch when visiting their search site in Firefox or Edge.
shmerl 7y ago
MS is still sour they lost the browser wars?
Starkus 7y ago
I like Firefox, better logo
miguelmota 7y ago
Firefox is like a Toyota; it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety. Microsoft is pushing hard on Edge to get more users to use Bing and more Bing users means more search ad revenue.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  > it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety. Automotive engineer for 20 years. How people still think Toyota today is Toyota of the 1990s, I have no idea. Pro Tip... Every car mfg uses the exact same suppliers. The seats in the Toyota Corrola are made by Johnson Controls, same as any GM. Hyundai builds the frame for Jeep Wrangler and other body on frame trucks. The new Tacoma has a foot and a half of fascia between the grill and bumper because the supplier for the cooling package, bumper, frame, and class-A sheetmetal couldn't agree on things. The electronics in the Fiat 500, are mostly the same as what's in a $400,000 Ferrari. McClaren doesn't spend 1/100th the money that Ford does on power management for a single vehicle, so you need to plug in your super car with a trickle charger when it's not being driven. .... Long story short, almost all vehicles have the same poor reliability right now. This current crop of vehicles 2018+ are easily the least reliable vehicles ever built, mfg doesn't matter.
  - miguelmota 7y ago
    I agree it’s not best analogy but the point was that Firefox is more lightweight and implement more privacy and secure features than competitors.
unethical_ban 7y ago
I'm interested in why anyone "needs" Chrome for work. My only thoughts are that they aren't admin and are forced to use it, or that FF historically didn't play well with corporate SSO. As of the past few months, however, that problem has mostly gone away. Is there anything Chrome can do that FF just can't?
yborg 7y ago
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. If nothing else convinced people Firefox is back, this should tip the scale.
- themacguffinman 7y ago
  Based on what? If Microsoft can show ads for Candy Crush with impunity, I don't know why you think this will tip any scales. Firefox has also lost ~2% desktop marketshare since 2018. Firefox is definitely not "back" and ready to fight a non-garbage browser.
chinathrow 7y ago
I recently upgraded a Windows 7 installation to Windows 10. There was both Thunderbird and Firefox installed, of each one version. After the upgrade, Firefox asked to be the default browser (first idiotic change by the Windows team) and then didn't identify the existing Firefox installation and only listed Edge and IE as a selection (second mishap). Time for another round of regulations.
rammy1234 7y ago
Why to attack, rather mention good things about the new product and off we go. we give power back to user hands for to decide. I guess some amount persuasion is required but with facts why to switch rather than blunt comment.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
This kind of stuff isn't new and has been going on for years. When I got a new laptop in 2017 I had a look at Windows 10 to see what it's like before I replaced it with Linux, and I got similar messages. I wrote a thing about it which has some screenshots: https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-interest.html https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-interest.html
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
Fuck no to Microsoft
rafiki6 7y ago
Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commenters here saying things like "this is why I don't believe in the new Microsoft or that Microsoft has changed", I'm not entirely sure how some meh ad telling you to switch your browser counteracts things like SQL Server on Linux or Azure supporting Linux VMs, or Microsoft's purchase of github, or .net core being cross platform, etc. I don't generally care to support a large company, nor am I an active developer or user in the microsoft stack, but the over reaction is a bit absurd. Does anyone who uses Firefox realize for a long while they were primarily funded by having Google pay them to be the default search engine?
- srhngpr 7y ago
  I agree with you. This comment should be higher up as it's more objective to this whole situation than a lot of the top comments that quickly resort to Microsoft bashing and "remembering the old Microsoft is the same Microsoft" type of comments.
- deaps 7y ago
  It's not an overreaction. It's literally a targeted ad showing up in your day to day work space. It's invasive. I switched to mac a long time ago, but I still have a Windows device because some things are just painful (or impossible) to use on a mac. The difference between using an application that prompts "make this default?" and a specifically targeted ad showing up on your start menu is that the user used the application that threw the prompt...That might actually be helpful. The fact is, if Microsoft wants me to switch to Edge, they need to tell me the benefits. A chart will do fine comparing it to other common options. I don't need a targeted ad that proves they know and keep track of what browser I'm actually using. That's literally ridiculous.
  - whywhywhywhy 7y ago
    Apple does the same sort of thing these days, Music.app on my phone keeps showing me a full screen ad for Apple Music around a month, dismissed it about 5 times now.
OscarTheGrinch 7y ago
I'm gonna plug my favourite solution to most Win10 BS> Open shell. It does a decent job of turning the start menu / add platform back into a start menu. https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/ https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/
GuB-42 7y ago
Is it specifically anti-Firefox or anti-not-Edge? Is there a "Still using Chrome?" message, or a "Still using IE?". I don't really understand the reason for going after Firefox specifically. Going after Chrome would make more sense to me. Chrome has the biggest user base, and now that Edge is based on Chromium, they can get users to switch without having them change their habits too much.
seanthegeek 7y ago
Does Microsoft intend to at least open source this new Chromium-based Edge?
intrepidhero 7y ago
Not even slightly surprised. When I got my Win 10 machine at work I typed "python" into my command line to see if it was installed and was shocked I didn't get a "command not found" message back, and confused when the MS Store popped up a second later. Win 10 ships with a python.exe that redirects to the MS Store and they hide in a place that makes its tough to remove from the path. When I got Win 10 at home I got to the shady telemetry opt-out page and immediate switched the install to debian.
- mlrtime 7y ago
  For most users this is great. Instead of having to find where to download python and install it, Microsoft will do it for you from the store. How is this different than ubuntu suggesting the apt command when you type a command?
  - intrepidhero 7y ago
    I closed the store as soon as it opened and it never occurred to me to see if there was python packaged in the store. If they were positioning the store as a reputable place to find curated software I'd be a little more charitable to the behavior as a feature to save users a step. I'm probably cynical but I think they're positioning the store as a way to extract commissions from software devs. As such I'd much rather download direct from python.org and this redirection behavior left a bad taste.
  - efreak 7y ago
    As one example (with a relatively trivial fix): the deep subfolder it gets installed in can cause path length issues [0]. There's a trivial fix (registry edit) to enable long paths, but that's not very user friendly. This affected me immediately--the first package I tried to install failed (possibly htop? I can't remember anymore...) apt installs packages for the system as a whole. Microsoft store does not. [0] https://bugs.python.org/issue37769 https://bugs.python.org/issue37769
pvh 7y ago
Just for kicks, I tried using internet explorer for a few weeks a while back. It seemed like every Google property was constantly prompting me to switch to Chrome. I mention this not to defend Microsoft, whose behavior here it intolerable, but to point out that this kind of thing is unfortunately common.
luckyorlame 7y ago
it is a complete overreaction, unless everything you do an an overation.
partiallypro 7y ago
I've almost never seen such an over reaction to something in my entire life. Suggested apps are something you can turn off, and they have had suggested apps for a while. People keeps saying Microsoft shouldn't do passive aggressive ads? How do you think Firefox and Chrome (Google still does this in Google search, and you can't turn it off?) People are not as tech literate as you think, some people have no idea that Edge now runs on Chromium.
jagger27 7y ago
How many times does Microsoft need to get slapped with an anti-trust on this specific issue to learn their lesson?
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Until they really get punished.
jacquesm 7y ago
All of you that keep telling me I should get over it and accept Nadella as a 'new kind of CEO' compared to Ballmer and Gates please explain yourselves. Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the top? Do you really believe that MS can be trusted, that GitHub really is in the best hands that it could be in and that we should let bygones be bygones because MS has changed its ways?
- thekyle 7y ago
  > Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the top? I mean I really doubt that Nadella or anyone else at the "top" is involved with minor UX changes to Windows.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Adding a commercials component to a piece of paid for software that has not had that before is a major decision.
mirimir 7y ago
I pretty much gave up on Windows over a decade ago. After years and years of doing this and that to prevent snooping, I finally had enough. I did keep a Win7 VM, however, in order to use Excel and Word for work. But I migrated all personal stuff to various Linux machines and VMs. I've mostly used Debian. For transient VMs, I mostly use stock Gnome. But also XFCE, which is light and cute, and is the new default for Whonix. Mirimir's main VM runs Bunsen Labs Helium, which is basically OpenBox, with a dock across the top, Conky, lots of shortcut keys, and right-click menu. Also pretty light, and uncluttered. But I don't really care that much how stuff looks. As long as it doesn't interfere with usability. And I do admit that the latest Gnome has done some stupid things to some of my old favorites. Gedit, for example, has been incredibly dumbed down. There's no shortcut key for "save as"! And much useful stuff is now hidden in a hamburger, and you actually need to tweak it to make stuff show up there.
suifbwish 7y ago
And they are breaking chrome each time they update windows now.
at_a_remove 7y ago
Another reason to get an LTSB license.
crmrc114 7y ago
I have no interest in this product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
"Microsoft supports Open Source now!" /s
RedComet 7y ago
Good thing for them the CEO is brown now, Ballmer caught more shit for just wanting to attract developers.
Proven 7y ago
As they should. I installed FF yesterday. Installed bullshits about privacy and once you're done and run it, FF opens a tab in which it tells you they spy on you. Screw them.
zelly 7y ago
For a company that cares so much about developers, they should have known better than to mess with the sacred cow that is Firefox.
ulkesh 7y ago
I completely understand that this is not exactly what anyone wants to see in the Start menu or any other actively used feature of Windows. But I find this considerably less egregious than Microsoft buying Github, or "embracing" Linux, as if it only has the open source community's welfare at heart. Microsoft is a for-profit, public company. They will do anything and everything in their own self-interest and to please their shareholders. While I have certainly posted my disdain in the past, especially for the Github buyout, I put this squarely in the same vein as when Canonical put Amazon search ads in the Dash on Ubuntu. It was a mistake for Canonical then, and it's a mistake for Microsoft now. If Microsoft truly want to show they're different, then they can put ads where the ads belong -- in the Microsoft App Store, or on television or other streaming media. Still using Firefox? Of course, we are. And we will continue to do so.
terrycody 7y ago
I am using firefox and I love it so much!
mmgutz 7y ago
Does it also do the same for Chrome?
tripzilch 7y ago
I wonder if anti-ads actually aren't allowed where I live (in NL), or whether we just think they are below us.
use___net 7y ago
M$ worst company ever!

Just when you think that Microsoft has learned to sit quiet when Google is busy messing up. Nope. Not this time either. Have to keep up with Google.

rafaelvasco 7y ago

Never saw these adds, as I disabled it all. But that's ridiculous.

moksly 7y ago
Building adds into the start menu search is ridiculous.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  How do normal people (who use Windows) think that this is ok? In what universe is that possibly ok - to put ads in a paid-for OS? No matter the context, no matter the version of an os, no matter the reason, no matter what the ads are for, no matter that they could through some questionable hacking or editing be removed - ads in a paid-for OS. Has the whole world gone crazy? What is going on here?
  - TremendousJudge 7y ago
    If you are used to ads everywhere now, why would you be surprised to see them in Windows? I mean for a "normal" person the argument against would probably make sense, but it probably won't jump in front of their eyes as a jarring thing
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - prox 7y ago
    My gripe is the following; How did we get to the point where people have to say (from the article) “I need Chrome for work” The more I read this the more we, as developers should start steering towards true open source solutions.
  - acollins1331 7y ago
    No it's just going back to normal. Remember when you paid for tv and still watched ads?
  - polotics 7y ago
    Clearly you're right. 2020 for me is the year of Linux on the laptop.
  - jraph 7y ago
    > How do normal people (who use Windows) think that this is ok? I have several hypotheses: - Some people don't even think about it. Many probably don't see there is a political aspect to browsers. What harm is there in suggesting something? It's not even clear that it is an ad, they are not going to buy Edge, it's free. What's more, they may only know one OS and take whatever they are provided with as is without any critical look. They probably trust their computer (yeah, and this is scary, but since the system shows this ad, some will probably take it as good advice to follow, and Microsoft is very wrong doing this because they know it). - Some are accustomed to ads. Some may even ignore them without knowing. Some people probably notice but don't care. By the way, why shouldn't a computer display ads in its UI if you are not against the idea of ads? (I personnally hate ads) - Some probably think it's not okay, but possibly forget about it and get on with their lives anyway, and/or don't tell anybody about it, so we would not even know whether people think it is ok.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I will go out on a limb and say “normal people” do not consider this an advertisement. The ad itself is a basically an icon, just like all the pre-bundled icons for Office, that are presented as an option to use, and in this case the thing doesn’t even cost money. Despite the emphasis and importance some people (and most of HN reader fall here) place on privacy, the general desktop user base does not care. As a closing anecdote, my office just upgraded everyone to Windows 10. My boss was still using Internet Explorer as his browser of choice. He was furious that he now couldn’t use his Hotmail menu bar and auto connect to his aol.com email by default anymore. He doesn’t have a clue or care about which browser he’s using, he just wants his things the way he likes. Privacy is not even a passing concern. He’s now on Edge.
    - choward 7y ago
      I would also like to add that "normal people" don't even realize they paid for Windows since it came pre-installed on their computer.
  - profmonocle 7y ago
    > In what universe is that possibly ok - to put ads in a paid-for OS? People have been accepting ads in paid products/services for generations. Cable TV channels have always had them, as have newspapers/magazines. Most movie theater chains run their own ads these days (not just trailers). It's easy to see why Microsoft is dipping their toes into this - sadly, consumers don't seem to mind so much
  - KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
    Isn't windows free now?
    - Juminuvi 7y ago
      I think pretty much. If you have a PC that has ever have any form of activated windows on it in the past it should activate a windows 10 install. So this would prob only exclude people building on new hardware which are considered oem anyway.
    - moksly 7y ago
      Not really, I have a stationery that is pretty much an expensive gaming console, and I paid around $115 to get a Windows version on it. So it’s really sort of disgusting when it pre-installs various free-to-play installers or uses the start search menu for advertisements. Hell, after years of having used *nix as my primary OS on my personal development laptop, I switched it to a surface pro 6 last year. I’m fairly certain these things is going to push me back to a Linux laptop.
  - Kunigaikstis 7y ago
    - Linux isn't very user friendly to begin with, whether it's in the form of OS usage or apps that you're used to. - A lot of people, including myself, grew up with Windows. Switching right now, after tens of years of usage, seems unnecessary still. - WARNING, personal opinion: Windows is the only platform for gamers.
    - rafaelvasco 7y ago
      Yeah, only reason I'm staying with Windows for the foreseeable future is because of the much superior app and games support compared to other platforms. Would have no problem going for Linux if it supported all my apps, steam catalog etc. I know things been improving in this area. For games, what must happen is the advent of a full cross platform graphics abstraction. WebGPU is a promising one. Vulkan too. But it's a very hard problem.
    - grazhero99 7y ago
      I disagree that Windows is the only platform for gamers. Obviously wine isn’t perfect yet, and getting banned from online games can certainly be a problem, but it’s gotten to the point I can say that Linux is viable alternative. The compromises you have to make are incredibly reasonable compared to what they used to be.
  - will4274 7y ago
    Normal people buy Cable. Paid+ads is a valid business model used by many firms. It doesn't surprise me at all that _consumers_ are willing to purchase an OS product with ads - it does surprise me that no ad-free version is available for enterprises at additional cost.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    "normal" users somehow end up with dozens of toolbars and adware and related crap anyway, which they don't mind at all, so MS taking another piece of that pie doesn't really look anything out of the ordinary to them.
- rafaelvasco 7y ago
  Absolutely agree.

Slashbot 7y ago

Those idiots at Mozilla have driven away there power users and third party developers.. with all there hair brained choices over the years... Fuck Em Right now is the only choice is which Chromium clone you want to use.. Frankly Vivaldi shits and pisses on all of them.

fctorial 7y ago

Some sleep deprived developer typed firefox instead of internet explorer.

giancarlostoro 7y ago
Honestly the way it reads it was probably intended for Internet Explorer users but it smartly chose to display the default browser. Would love to see if it shows different for someone with only Chrome or Chrome as a default, vs someone with IE still installed.

aneutron 7y ago

Microsoft doing shady stuff again. It's really a shame. The engineering that the teams at Microsoft put to the kernel and the actual operating system at large is amazing. But then some Product Management division decides to shove this shit down people's throat and, for me at least, ruins all the fun of what would is otherwise an amazing piece of an operating system. I paid for an operating system, just let me use the damn thing in peace will you ...

tracker1 7y ago
I feel largely the same... they build some really cool things, and developer division, the azure guys and .net core guys I've talked to are all great... why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things, I don't get. Just auto-update edge and put it in a pinned taskbar position with a new icon and a notification bubble... no need to disparage anything, it'd be more assertive and less annoying at the same time.
- oblio 7y ago
  > Why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things, I don't get. It smells of desperation on the product management side of things. They can't show growth anymore. I'm not saying they should just give up, but folks, be a bit more dignified over there. Your company's doing great and Windows still does a pretty decent job in many places, cut the crap... At some point you have to accept that Windows is the mature partner, not the hot 20-year old :-D
- Kwantuum 7y ago
  > put it in a pinned taskbar position with a new icon and a notification bubble [...] less annoying I have to disagree here. Messing with people's pinned taskbar icons is much more intrusive than a suggestion (which anyone sane has already disabled) > why are they so heavy handed on the windows side of things I'm sorry but that's pretty funny right before suggesting to literally change users settings without their consent.
  - brianzelip 7y ago

mcherm 7y ago

Does anyone know enough to comment on how this jives with the settlement that Microsoft reached with the EU around 2010 over accusations of leveraging their monopoly in operating systems to drive user choice in browsers?

despera 7y ago
Considering that the browser choice UI first "neglected" and then removed from Windows we can safely call this another EU bubble.

tracker1 7y ago

Not as bad as the one they put over the top of a pinned chrome icon on the start menu a few times.

bubblethink 7y ago

Purely from the meme perspective, I think the "Still using X ? Y is here" phrase has some value. Sort of like those jokes about how if IE can ask you to be the default browser, you can do X.

egdod 7y ago

> Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installing the new browser and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. And of course, many remind that it’s possible to disable suggestions in the Start menu to block such “ads” from showing up again. Gotta wonder if that’s astroturfing.

raxxorrax 7y ago
No, from experience the users are often earnest in their madness. But you can keep your faith in humanity a little bit, since this was posted on the windows 10 subreddit. To their defense, Chrome and Firefox both have bad settings menues that slowly adjust themselves to match Edges horribleness. And it is not only power users complaining about the mess.

raxxorrax 7y ago

Yes, still using Firefox because Edge is complete shite. Thank you for asking. And now please remove yourself, unnecessary and unhelpful start menu.

jefftk 7y ago
Are you talking about the old Edge or the new one? The new Blink-based Edge is pretty good, and doesn't have the lingering incompatibilities of old EdgeHTML.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  The old Edge to be fair. I don't think it is that bad, but the html engine would be the least of my concern. Only rarely do I create websites and Edge gave me no problems here. I don't like its restrictive and opinionated settings. Some criticism has been adressed but I don't have an incentive to switch. Because I believe bad habits of MS resurface as soon as enough people do so. I have seen that it got better, but it just isn't enough. I don't use an online account for my OS because that would be silly, so some of its functions aren't even accessible. Overall it just cannot be configured to my liking. It is usable, but certainly no Firefox.

alxlaz 7y ago

This, and every other screw-up in the same vein, is why those of us old enough to remember the Halloween documents don't buy the whole "new Microsoft" thing. Want to get me to try Edge? Great -- instead of a passive-aggressive ad, try telling me how it's better than Firefox and why I'd like to use it instead. What will it get me? Better privacy? Better performance? Better development tools? Cynically, it's amazing that Microsoft collects so much personal data about each user -- and yet its "target" ads are hopelessly generic and tasteless. Also, leaving the matter of whether or not I should even be seeing ads after I paid for the damn thing aside, the company that brought us Internet Explorer is the last one that should crack jokes about other browsers, even if they're good (which this one isn't).

iso1631 7y ago
Over the last couple of years I've been coming round to the fact that microsoft aren't necessarily a major problem now, compared to google and amazon at least. Doesn't take much to put the shields back upto full. I just don't understand why people run windows. Maybe I just use computers wrong, having been on linux for the last 20 years, but my family (who I refuse to help with IT needs) are all far happier on chromebooks than on windows
- alxlaz 7y ago
  > I just don't understand why people run windows. I've used Linux for about the same time and honestly, I understand it completely. I would switch, were it not for muscle memory and for the fact that at least 50% of my work involves systems-level development for Linux (mainly embedded stuff, so a lot of cross-compiling). In the last five or six years I've come to dread the Linux desktop and its constant churn of rewrites and UX "improvements". I have a Windows machine that I use for work the other half of the time and honestly... it's great. Yeah, the occasional update breaks some fringe feature. But the chances of something like waking up to the announcement that Microsoft is removing desktop icons in the next update and you can just install this third-party application for it (which will break with every update) are practically zero. Microsoft puts out a lot of broken stuff (some of which slowly morphs into non-broken, useful stuff over time, e.g. Powershell), but you can mostly be assured that, if something works today, it'll work ten years from now, modulo some registry hacks. That's incredibly valuable. I really don't care about things like UI consistency and whatnot -- what I do care about is stability and functionality. Edit: tbh, the main reason why I'm not switching today is that I don't really trust this whole OS-as-a-service model. If it were Windows 2000 instead of Windows 10, I wouldn't think twice before switching, but these are different times. (More edit: please realize that I'm the same person who posted this reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22288917 , yeah?)

moomin 7y ago

Reminder that “New” Microsoft Edge is just Chrone with different spyware. So yeah, I’m still using Firefox thanks.

gruez 7y ago
I’ve heard that it still contacts google domains (probably because msft didn’t replace everything), so it’s more like google AND Microsoft spyware.
- fluidcruft 7y ago
  We're only just now entering the embrace stage.
- floatingatoll 7y ago
  Are those just for “Google Safe Browsing”, or for other purposes as well?
- smileybarry 7y ago
  MSFT replaced every API from what they've said, including Safe Browsing (it uses SmartScreen now): https://www.ghacks.net/2019/04/09/microsoft-edge-google-features-disabled/ https://www.ghacks.net/2019/04/09/microsoft-edge-google-feat...
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
FWIW, Microsoft did add tracking prevention tools much like Firefox and Safari have. So they did add the common browser feature Google refuses to integrate. Privacy-minded people who insist on using Chrome should switch to Edge over Chrome. But I refuse to contribute to the Chromium monoculture.
- swebs 7y ago
  No they shouldn't. They should switch to Firefox or Safari. Or at the very least Chromium (from a Linux package manager).

pcdoodle 7y ago

This is exactly why I switched to Mac and no longer use Windows for Point of Sale and NVR installs.

fortran77 7y ago
Did you get angry when there was an ad for iCloud during the install process?

eternalny1 7y ago

Back to the anti-competitive behavior that got them in trouble years ago. Someone inside Microsoft at a senior level needs to intervene here with the marketing teams and tell them to stop.

Delmania 7y ago
How is this different than getting an ad for Chrome when you go to google.com?
- disiplus 7y ago
  you pay for windows and still get ads.
  - Spivak 7y ago
    You pay for TV and still get ads. I'm more than happy to pay to remove ads but I think it's presumptuous to assume that if you pay any amount of money it's expected that it will be ad free. I mean Red Hat has ads in their RHEL installer.
- xenophonf 7y ago
  That's wrong, too, but the subject under discussion here is Microsoft.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  Why should it be any different? Both are abuses of a monopoly position.
- annadane 7y ago
  What is up with the recent wave of relativism-type comments? "Yes, Facebook is bad, but what about Reddit?" "Yes, Microsoft is bad, but what about Google?" etc etc They're not productive. Yet a ton of people are doing it. It almost smells like astroturf.
- Vrondi 7y ago
  Because we paid money for this OS license, and we didn't go to Microsoft.com

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

One of the many reasons why I hate Windows 10. Just get out of my way and let me use my computer how I want. I'd put on my "smug Linux user" hat but to be honest my distro of choice (Ubuntu) has Amazon search integrated by default. The only saving grace is that it can be easily, completely, and permanently removed with just a couple of commands. Seriously considering a Macbook for my next computer at this point.

maweki 7y ago
Why is Ubuntu your distro of choice then? No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater by buying into Apple's walled garden.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
  Because Ubuntu is still the closest you get to "it just works" for Linux Desktops. (Not claiming you actually get there, just close).
  - maweki 7y ago
    I think this is quite a misconception. I've used Ubuntu for years and it basically broke on me with every major version upgrade. I have never ever hat a Fedora system bail out on me in that manner and I have multiple PCs. My Dad and my Grandma's friends also use Fedora and they have yet to manage to break it and they are allowed to install software.
sleepychu 7y ago
That amazon integration is finally being removed! https://fossbytes.com/ubuntu-20-04-lts-drops-amazon-web-app/ https://fossbytes.com/ubuntu-20-04-lts-drops-amazon-web-app/
teraku 7y ago
My "smug Linux user" hat made me install Arch Linux on my private desktop. Still using ubuntu on my laptop and windows (urgh) at work. But also strongly considering Macbook for my next laptop.

fortran77 7y ago

I just installed and ran Firefox. I was presented with a page of ads: https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png https://i.imgur.com/HiS8k1L.png Note that the "top sites" aren't my top sites. They're ads. And then there's an ad at the bottom.

ForHackernews 7y ago
Unless you're personally donating large sums of money to Mozilla, you need to stop whining about their innocuous, non-spyware ads that are easily removed. Your alternative isn't some hypothetical "pure" browser. Your choices are Microsoft spyware, Google spyware, or presumably some Chinese spyware. Or Firefox, imperfect though it may be. There are now only two viable rendering engines left in the browser world, and Firefox Gecko is one of them.
- fortran77 7y ago
  I wasn't whining about it. I was just pointing out that the people saying "Micrsoft is evil! Use Firefox" aren't telling the whole story. I don't mind either ad. Both are easily removed.
jopsen 7y ago
They could also show nothing.. Seems fairly harmless to me. But yes, it would be awesome if we could pay for an ad-free Firefox built by Mozilla.

solarkraft 7y ago

Just stop using it. I'm glad I have given it up a long time ago. It's like that person who keeps promising they will do better. They won't. Just stop wasting your time on Microsoft products.

solarkraft 7y ago

Still using Windows? Many wonderful Linux distributions are here.

NexRebular 7y ago
Still using linux? Many wonderful BSD and illumos systems are here.
- betaby 7y ago
  With added security! Air-gaped, no WiFi 802.11AC for you.

GoToRO 7y ago

It's not anti-Firefox. It's anti-the-other-browser-that-you-use. It doesn't bother me at all. There are other, more serious things big corporations can do that make me worry.

DrScientist 7y ago

The prominence of the ad tells you how important browsers are both to revenue streams and computing experience. So many apps are now delivered over the web the OS is becoming increasingly irrelevant. The rise of the web has done more for the viability of desktop linux than anything else.

rafaelvasco 7y ago

I have to wonder who is responsible for this bs. I admire several aspects of Microsoft, but then things like this appear. It would be ok (barely) to promote the browser in the OS, but to mention a competitor explicitly is just bad.

mikegreenberg 7y ago

For all the good they are doing, you'd wonder there's some alterior motive. Reminded me to re-read this article: http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/ http://pedrocr.pt/text/microsofts-love-of-linux/

anonymou2 7y ago

still using Windows?

a3n 7y ago

"Ads in a paid-for OS!?!" Did you buy it and own it, or did you license it?

Shorel 7y ago

The old Edge is one of the best Epub readers I have ever used. The new Edge, I have no reason at all to use it over Firefox. I hope no banking website makes it necessary to use Edge, as it happened with previous Microsoft browsers.

squaresmile 7y ago
Yep, it's a shame that they removed it and actively prevented me from using it even though I still have old Edge on my system. Now I need to import epubs into Calibre to have a reasonable epub reader.
- NoGravitas 7y ago
  [EPUBReader](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/epubreader/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/epubreader/) is an _okay_ ePub reader for Firefox. It's not fantastic, but it's good enough for ephemerally reading ePubs I don't want to put on my Kobo.
- efreak 7y ago
  FBReader is available for windows, if you're looking for open source (keeping in mind that the Android version is no longer open source, so it's not the same FBReader). CoolReader is also available for windows. Personally, I actually prefer calibre's ebook reader; if you dislike it, but do use a Calibre library, Calibre Web [0] has a (IMO) fairly decent browser-based ebook reader [0]: https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web https://github.com/janeczku/calibre-web

chooseaname 7y ago

It is the Microsoft sleight of hand. One hand is showing you want you want to see; Open Source initiatives, developer glad-handing, etc. While the other hand does this.

woofie11 7y ago
It's more like hundreds of teams who don't talk to each other.
- iaml 7y ago
  This old picture [0] doesn't seem to lose relevance, heh. [0] https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5 https://imgur.com/gallery/EoUy6I5
- hnbroseph 7y ago
  So the hands dont speak to each other?

ChicagoDave 7y ago

I think Microsoft has every right to suggest their own browser. Chrome does it. Firefox does it. You have to opt out of the reminder. So you have to opt out of Start menu ads. Big deal. Can we focus on something slighty less trivial please?

zulban 7y ago
Firefox is a browser. Chrome is a browser. Windows is an operating system. Consider having a closer look at the IE anti-trust cases to better understand the difference.
- tatersolid 7y ago
  The Google Search homepage isn’t a browser, but they stick an intrusive bar across the top of the screen instructing me to install Chrome. Google’s search monopoly is even greater than Microsoft’s OS monopoly was at its peak.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Trying to special case an operating system as the reason this is so bad misses the point. The reason Google abuses it's home page to push Chrome is because Google controls the world's most popular home page. The reason Microsoft abuses it's operating system to push Edge is because Microsoft controls the world's most popular operating system (for desktops, anyways). This is not about what is an OS and what is a browser (and things like Chromebooks make that line super blurry anyways). It's about monopolies using their market dominance in one category (which ever it is) to illegally expand their presence in other categories.
raxxorrax 7y ago
> opt out of Start menu ads. Big deal. Yes, yes it is.

ForHackernews 7y ago

Why are they attacking Firefox instead of Chrome? It seems really weird.

Juminuvi 7y ago
I think the article just sited an anecdotal example from one user who had Firefox installed. Maybe others with Chrome see Chrome instead? Or maybe ms is trying to play nice with Google to make edge chromium development easier.
neogodless 7y ago
I came here to discuss this. It probably doesn't need to be said, but the brains behind this marketing don't understand their users... assuming they are actually targeting Firefox. My guess would be that Firefox users mostly consist of people that know enough to not use Chrome or a Microsoft browser. And an ad won't change that. Chrome is the new IE as far as the default that everyone uses, so it would make sense if they targeted them. "Get the same browsing experience with better integration with Windows." (That's probably not true, but this is advertising, which never stopped anyone.)

givinguflac 7y ago

My god if apple did something like this people would burn cities down. Why do people still trust Microsoft when their OS is literally a native advertising and tracking tool now

dannyw 7y ago
You're literally banned from shipping non-WKWebKit browsers on iOS though...
Pigo 7y ago
Apple is a walled garden
Juminuvi 7y ago
Don't they? Don't they push out new apps which get installed and pinned to the Mac dock after almost every other update without asking first? I could be mistaken, I don't use macs every day.
dooglius 7y ago
Apple is way worse than this, they don't even allow other browsers to exist as anything but shells of theirs!
- Vrondi 7y ago
  Firefox does run just fine on OSX.
  - rhodysurf 7y ago
    hes talking about iOS
nickflood 7y ago
On the other hand google search and youtube show the popup for Chrome when you use any other browser, and was showing for years, and yet nobody's mad at that pretty much identical anti-competitive bundling. But no, if Microsoft tries to prop up their 5% broser share, it's really really bad! (I like Microsoft more than Google)

ChicagoDave 7y ago

I’d also note that ten years ago this would be actual news. People just don’t care because Windows 10 is stable and Microsoft is probably the least evil, most admired, corporation on the planet. “Still bitching about Microsoft 2003? Try the new 2020 Microsoft!”

pergadad 7y ago

Weird end to the article. Seems Microsoft is paying some social media shills?

NikkiA 7y ago
Microsoft literally invented online astroturfing

nearmuse 7y ago

Still using Windows? Still using Office (360)? Still using GitHub? These aren't maybe exactly ripe for disruption, but since all of them have existed for ages now almost without any game-changing innovation these questions are very valid as well.

choward 7y ago
Those aren't even the worst. What about linked in?
- holler 7y ago
  I still to this day haven't used LinkedIn and refuse to use it, simply because of the dark-patterns they employed years ago with abusive, intrusive, and unsolicited email invites.

ourmandave 7y ago

Will this even moving the needle on Chrome users?

globular-toast 7y ago

"Microsoft loves open source".

dooglius 7y ago

Would anyone bat an eye if, say, Thunderbird had a thing saying "Still using IE? Try Firefox."

hellofunk 7y ago

Ads built into an OS is such a massive antipattern.

hutattedonmyarm 7y ago

I recently got a similar "suggestion", see [0]. I was super mad, because I have turned the "show suggestions in start menu" setting turned off, so it felt like it's disrespectign my settings [0] https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/942/616/original/c5e386f986de0344.png https://metalhead.club/system/media_attachments/files/001/94...

Brave-Steak 7y ago

Who can I send an email to in the EU who's willing to investigate this? There's got to be some institution that gives a shit.

RabbiPires 7y ago

>Many of those who commented in the linked reddit thread actually praise Microsoft Edge, explaining that they already installed the new browser, and it’s just as good as Chrome or Firefox. Completely organic too, I presume.

metalliqaz 7y ago

I dread the web we will get if Firefox dies. Could you imagine the only major browser being created by the largest advertiser?

nomadiccoder 7y ago
Firefox is great as a product and even greater for this reason. All other browsers are either packaged with the OS (by the company selling the OS) or as you said.
morsch 7y ago
It doesn't take much creativity, to be honest.
idoubtit 7y ago
Firefox accounts for about 5% of browsers used. It's not dead, but far from thriving, and many web sites ignore Firefox to the point they are not compatible with it. Yet I have not seen a major impact of this quasi-disappearance.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  True but until very recently there was also Microsoft in the game.

CivBase 7y ago

Why Firefox? Chrome has a bigger market share to take. Edge is built on Chromium now so it should be a more familiar environment for Chrome users. Microsoft is in a position to compete with many of the integration features that make Chrome appealing to many users. Surely it makes more sense to target Chrome than Firefox.

pawelk 7y ago
Microsoft made me install Chrome just the other day. A company I work with decided to try MS Teams for communication and when I went there using Firefox, it simply refused to let me in and told me to get Chrome. They couldn't suggest Edge because I'm on Linux, so at least they did not require me to switch my OS. edit: after accepting the invite and setting up an account I can use the product just fine in Firefox.
- Arnavion 7y ago
  Yeah, for some inane reason direct links to Teams channels, chats, etc block you if you don't have a Chrome UA. In reality the only thing that actually needs Chrome is calls (which don't work on FF even with a Chrome UA).
- CivBase 7y ago
  I just kind of assumed the new Edge would work on Linux because it's built on Chromium. Now I have even more questions.
soraminazuki 7y ago
Maybe because driving Firefox out of relevance would result in one less browser vendor working on the privacy front.

nomadiccoder 7y ago

I love Firefox, I use it on every OS. I do use Chrome for accessing my RStudio server because the performance is significantly better. Chrome on Android also feels better than Firefox on Android but I use both interchangeably. I use Edge for reading PDFs on my windows PC because it is usually convenient and somewhat infrequent. Im not entirely convinced why, but think very strongly that it is important to diversify your software and hardware solutions. Additionally it seems prudent that one company doesn't own the full stack, this pushes me away from Edge and Safari.

Causality1 7y ago

I'm beginning to get tired of these shitbirds. Remember when "bad behavior" was bundling a web browser with your OS? How innocent we were.

oscarb92 7y ago

"still using Firefox?" no, still using Chrome ;)

theferalrobot 7y ago

The title seems misleading... how is saying, "still using firefox" Anti-firefox? It's just a fact that firefox hit its prime in terms of market share long ago. It's now at what like 4% market share and falling? Hell, 'Samsung internet' is about to pass it up.

Yolta 7y ago
Apparently, Microsoft deemed it popular enough to show ads targeting Firefox users

matteuan 7y ago

Screnshotted this some weeks ago: http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html http://geekpic.net/pm-WMNY1S.html It appears something like 10% of the times when I search for Chrome or Firefox. I find it shameful

z3t4 7y ago

Still using Xsomthing? That was so two months ago. Things move fast in the fashion cough software world. Meanwhile our OS has a pseudo terminal layer, and we are using x86 processors...

maxwellito 7y ago

This is pretty sad, but Apple was doing this as well. Less mean tho. But at every restart of Chrome, I had a notification to use Safari. https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968 https://twitter.com/mxwllt/status/882190696224083968

MagnumOpus 7y ago
Google, Apple, Microsoft - the holy trinity of abusing dominant market positions. Would that change if they were broken up? Somehow my hunch is that the "independent" Edge or Chrome subsidiaries will immediately get roped into a gimme-data-or-else revenue agreement with the remainder of GOOG and/or MSFT...

swiley 7y ago

Windows 10 home is an active attack on the user and the enterprise version isn’t much better. I’m constantly shocked at how popular the OS continues to be.

bprasanna 7y ago

Not cool MS. Stunts like these will take a toll on TRUST! Why don't you target Chrome! Which is a bigger evil!?

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

Given that everything is Chrome nowadays and Firefox has a very small share of the market, this seems stupid. Maybe someone finished a task on the backlog from 2014.

slowmovintarget 7y ago

What's funny about this is they seem like they're way behind the times. A long time ago I switched to Firefox... it got worse (comparatively), and I switched to Chrome for everything, a long time ago. Google started disabling and neutering things like ad blocking, enforcing rules and settings with exceptions for Google domains. Firefox dramatically improved both its responsiveness and its security and privacy features. Last year, I switched back to Firefox. Why was Edge not a consideration? Because I use Macs everywhere except my gaming PC at home.

91edec 7y ago
Edge runs on Mac

oefrha 7y ago

I’m certainly less triggered by this textual ad than Candy Crush Saga next the start menu even with my goddamn Pro license. Also it’s quite odd that Firefox is singled out.

oefrha 7y ago
Btw, I should add that the always-on OneDrive button placed in a prime spot of File Explorer so that you inevitably click on it by accident every so often which then launches OneDrive, plus the regular “security” nag that you aren’t backing up to OneDrive is way worse. Surprised no one even talks about this. (IIRC the OneDrive button can only be disabled via registry or group policy. Might not even be possible on Home Edition. Ridiculous.) Disclosure: I was actually a dedicated OneDrive user back in the days. Even wrote a full blown CLI suite for it. I pulled the crap out when they decided that unlimited = 1TB.

abdulmuhaimin 7y ago

This one simple ad destroyed any goodwill I have towards Microsoft.

runjake 7y ago

If you think this is bad now, wait until you see when/if they gain market dominance again. This is just a sad fact of (at least, US) corporations. Stock price, stock price, stock price. It even afflicts our beloved Apple. They pull the same tactics but somehow get a pass, most of the time.

Vrondi 7y ago

Microsoft's marketing teams have been crap, well, forever. They somehow always fail to make the public aware of their coolest features, while at the same time doing slimy stuff like this. I do sometimes wonder if they intentionally try to sabotage the company.

butterfi 7y ago

Here comes new Microsoft, same as old Microsoft.

twodave 7y ago

I think a big part of this is just human nature. Microsoft believes they have a superior browser. They have a large amount of influence due to their software platform. It's got to be super tempting to get the word out with your most direct means of advertising (in your product). I don't agree with it, but I understand it and even expect it. Recognizing this in other areas of life is super valuable, too. e.g. why is the dentist recommending X hipster toothpaste? Is it actually better? Or do they have a stake of some kind? Looking at your purchasing decisions in such a pessimistic (read: realistic) way can protect you from a lot of pseudo-science and other garbage you don't need in your life.

at-fates-hands 7y ago

I'm just wondering if this is Google pushing MS to do this, or if this is MS alone trying to make this happen. For all of the other MS branded products they push, I've never seen this for their other products. This really feels like Google pushing them somehow to do this. They really could've done this a ton of their other products and never have. The first "collaboration" with a known shady advertising company and then these start popping up? I can only conclude Google has a hand in this somehow.

antisthenes 7y ago

I'm staying on W7 until extended paid support ends (W10 doesn't do anything for me functionality-wise.) W7 is incidentally the only MS product I ever paid money for (student copy of Pro for $30) Then I'm switching to Linux. Ads on individual websites I can tolerate, but not in an OS.

pgt 7y ago

If Satya is listening, my next machine was going to be a Windows box, but this is the fastest way to lose my business as a developer.

paulcarroty 7y ago

Is there a way to buy ad directly on Windows desktop yet? It will be very interesting for software promotion [irony]. MS seems like don't care for desktop users 'cause monopoly. Seems like my decision to avoid their products was positive.

fraktl 7y ago

This will be unpopular but I don't care - I see nothing shady. They're promoting their product. In the era when we're lied to at every corner of internet, I see nothing wrong with Microsoft promoting their new and AWESOME browser. Sadly, despite my love for Mozilla and Firefox, Edge is superior browser for me. It looks better, it works faster, it uses less memory and its developer console is much snappier, detailed and I am used to working with it. I'm sure there are people who would say the same about Firefox. I would love for Firefox to be the best browser, both technically and subjectively. But it isn't (yet, and again - for ME). Having hated Microsoft for a long time and having thought of Google as godsend, my opinion has changed in 2020. Microsoft did some amazing things for OSS community and for us web developers (Typescript, VSCode, Edge, Github.. I can stop here but there's more). I actually recommend Edge to other people. The wording Microsoft chose might not be the best, but what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? What would the titles be then? "Trillion dollar company inept in promoting their latest and best product. Shareholders stumped." By the way, the site that reports the issue (softpedia) loads ads and unwanted cookies. Using the same SJW logic, could I discredit their misleading title based on the source of their revenue?

icebraining 7y ago
> what are they supposed to do? Do nothing? Isn't Edge still actually bundled with Windows? How is that nothing? > SJW logic WTF?! What part of this is "SJW"? And how is their title misleading?

AegirLeet 7y ago

This kind of stuff is exactly why I'm not "upgrading" from Windows 7 to 10.

methehack 7y ago

It's back! The good old days of Micro$loth!

PretzelFisch 7y ago

They have a pretty good browser again, and this looks more like a play to get more bing search in front of more people. They make a lot of money with everly little % increases in add display. I am not sure I feel this is different then Google trying to get you to browser switch when visiting their search site in Firefox or Edge.

shmerl 7y ago

MS is still sour they lost the browser wars?

Starkus 7y ago

I like Firefox, better logo

miguelmota 7y ago

Firefox is like a Toyota; it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety. Microsoft is pushing hard on Edge to get more users to use Bing and more Bing users means more search ad revenue.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
> it sometimes lacks the latest bells and whistles but it’s always been reliable and generally cares about your safety. Automotive engineer for 20 years. How people still think Toyota today is Toyota of the 1990s, I have no idea. Pro Tip... Every car mfg uses the exact same suppliers. The seats in the Toyota Corrola are made by Johnson Controls, same as any GM. Hyundai builds the frame for Jeep Wrangler and other body on frame trucks. The new Tacoma has a foot and a half of fascia between the grill and bumper because the supplier for the cooling package, bumper, frame, and class-A sheetmetal couldn't agree on things. The electronics in the Fiat 500, are mostly the same as what's in a $400,000 Ferrari. McClaren doesn't spend 1/100th the money that Ford does on power management for a single vehicle, so you need to plug in your super car with a trickle charger when it's not being driven. .... Long story short, almost all vehicles have the same poor reliability right now. This current crop of vehicles 2018+ are easily the least reliable vehicles ever built, mfg doesn't matter.
- miguelmota 7y ago
  I agree it’s not best analogy but the point was that Firefox is more lightweight and implement more privacy and secure features than competitors.

unethical_ban 7y ago

I'm interested in why anyone "needs" Chrome for work. My only thoughts are that they aren't admin and are forced to use it, or that FF historically didn't play well with corporate SSO. As of the past few months, however, that problem has mostly gone away. Is there anything Chrome can do that FF just can't?

yborg 7y ago

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. If nothing else convinced people Firefox is back, this should tip the scale.

themacguffinman 7y ago
Based on what? If Microsoft can show ads for Candy Crush with impunity, I don't know why you think this will tip any scales. Firefox has also lost ~2% desktop marketshare since 2018. Firefox is definitely not "back" and ready to fight a non-garbage browser.

chinathrow 7y ago

I recently upgraded a Windows 7 installation to Windows 10. There was both Thunderbird and Firefox installed, of each one version. After the upgrade, Firefox asked to be the default browser (first idiotic change by the Windows team) and then didn't identify the existing Firefox installation and only listed Edge and IE as a selection (second mishap). Time for another round of regulations.

rammy1234 7y ago

Why to attack, rather mention good things about the new product and off we go. we give power back to user hands for to decide. I guess some amount persuasion is required but with facts why to switch rather than blunt comment.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

This kind of stuff isn't new and has been going on for years. When I got a new laptop in 2017 I had a look at Windows 10 to see what it's like before I replaced it with Linux, and I got similar messages. I wrote a thing about it which has some screenshots: https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-interest.html https://www.arp242.net/browsers-conflict-interest.html

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

Fuck no to Microsoft

rafiki6 7y ago

Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commenters here saying things like "this is why I don't believe in the new Microsoft or that Microsoft has changed", I'm not entirely sure how some meh ad telling you to switch your browser counteracts things like SQL Server on Linux or Azure supporting Linux VMs, or Microsoft's purchase of github, or .net core being cross platform, etc. I don't generally care to support a large company, nor am I an active developer or user in the microsoft stack, but the over reaction is a bit absurd. Does anyone who uses Firefox realize for a long while they were primarily funded by having Google pay them to be the default search engine?

srhngpr 7y ago
I agree with you. This comment should be higher up as it's more objective to this whole situation than a lot of the top comments that quickly resort to Microsoft bashing and "remembering the old Microsoft is the same Microsoft" type of comments.
deaps 7y ago
It's not an overreaction. It's literally a targeted ad showing up in your day to day work space. It's invasive. I switched to mac a long time ago, but I still have a Windows device because some things are just painful (or impossible) to use on a mac. The difference between using an application that prompts "make this default?" and a specifically targeted ad showing up on your start menu is that the user used the application that threw the prompt...That might actually be helpful. The fact is, if Microsoft wants me to switch to Edge, they need to tell me the benefits. A chart will do fine comparing it to other common options. I don't need a targeted ad that proves they know and keep track of what browser I'm actually using. That's literally ridiculous.
- whywhywhywhy 7y ago
  Apple does the same sort of thing these days, Music.app on my phone keeps showing me a full screen ad for Apple Music around a month, dismissed it about 5 times now.

OscarTheGrinch 7y ago

I'm gonna plug my favourite solution to most Win10 BS> Open shell. It does a decent job of turning the start menu / add platform back into a start menu. https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/ https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/

GuB-42 7y ago

Is it specifically anti-Firefox or anti-not-Edge? Is there a "Still using Chrome?" message, or a "Still using IE?". I don't really understand the reason for going after Firefox specifically. Going after Chrome would make more sense to me. Chrome has the biggest user base, and now that Edge is based on Chromium, they can get users to switch without having them change their habits too much.

seanthegeek 7y ago

Does Microsoft intend to at least open source this new Chromium-based Edge?

intrepidhero 7y ago

Not even slightly surprised. When I got my Win 10 machine at work I typed "python" into my command line to see if it was installed and was shocked I didn't get a "command not found" message back, and confused when the MS Store popped up a second later. Win 10 ships with a python.exe that redirects to the MS Store and they hide in a place that makes its tough to remove from the path. When I got Win 10 at home I got to the shady telemetry opt-out page and immediate switched the install to debian.

mlrtime 7y ago
For most users this is great. Instead of having to find where to download python and install it, Microsoft will do it for you from the store. How is this different than ubuntu suggesting the apt command when you type a command?
- intrepidhero 7y ago
  I closed the store as soon as it opened and it never occurred to me to see if there was python packaged in the store. If they were positioning the store as a reputable place to find curated software I'd be a little more charitable to the behavior as a feature to save users a step. I'm probably cynical but I think they're positioning the store as a way to extract commissions from software devs. As such I'd much rather download direct from python.org and this redirection behavior left a bad taste.
- efreak 7y ago
  As one example (with a relatively trivial fix): the deep subfolder it gets installed in can cause path length issues [0]. There's a trivial fix (registry edit) to enable long paths, but that's not very user friendly. This affected me immediately--the first package I tried to install failed (possibly htop? I can't remember anymore...) apt installs packages for the system as a whole. Microsoft store does not. [0] https://bugs.python.org/issue37769 https://bugs.python.org/issue37769

pvh 7y ago

Just for kicks, I tried using internet explorer for a few weeks a while back. It seemed like every Google property was constantly prompting me to switch to Chrome. I mention this not to defend Microsoft, whose behavior here it intolerable, but to point out that this kind of thing is unfortunately common.

luckyorlame 7y ago

it is a complete overreaction, unless everything you do an an overation.

partiallypro 7y ago

I've almost never seen such an over reaction to something in my entire life. Suggested apps are something you can turn off, and they have had suggested apps for a while. People keeps saying Microsoft shouldn't do passive aggressive ads? How do you think Firefox and Chrome (Google still does this in Google search, and you can't turn it off?) People are not as tech literate as you think, some people have no idea that Edge now runs on Chromium.

jagger27 7y ago

How many times does Microsoft need to get slapped with an anti-trust on this specific issue to learn their lesson?

jacquesm 7y ago
Until they really get punished.

jacquesm 7y ago

All of you that keep telling me I should get over it and accept Nadella as a 'new kind of CEO' compared to Ballmer and Gates please explain yourselves. Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the top? Do you really believe that MS can be trusted, that GitHub really is in the best hands that it could be in and that we should let bygones be bygones because MS has changed its ways?

thekyle 7y ago
> Do you really believe that this sort of thing happens without an OK from the top? I mean I really doubt that Nadella or anyone else at the "top" is involved with minor UX changes to Windows.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Adding a commercials component to a piece of paid for software that has not had that before is a major decision.

mirimir 7y ago

I pretty much gave up on Windows over a decade ago. After years and years of doing this and that to prevent snooping, I finally had enough. I did keep a Win7 VM, however, in order to use Excel and Word for work. But I migrated all personal stuff to various Linux machines and VMs. I've mostly used Debian. For transient VMs, I mostly use stock Gnome. But also XFCE, which is light and cute, and is the new default for Whonix. Mirimir's main VM runs Bunsen Labs Helium, which is basically OpenBox, with a dock across the top, Conky, lots of shortcut keys, and right-click menu. Also pretty light, and uncluttered. But I don't really care that much how stuff looks. As long as it doesn't interfere with usability. And I do admit that the latest Gnome has done some stupid things to some of my old favorites. Gedit, for example, has been incredibly dumbed down. There's no shortcut key for "save as"! And much useful stuff is now hidden in a hamburger, and you actually need to tweak it to make stuff show up there.

suifbwish 7y ago

And they are breaking chrome each time they update windows now.

at_a_remove 7y ago

Another reason to get an LTSB license.

crmrc114 7y ago

I have no interest in this product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

"Microsoft supports Open Source now!" /s

RedComet 7y ago

Good thing for them the CEO is brown now, Ballmer caught more shit for just wanting to attract developers.

Proven 7y ago

As they should. I installed FF yesterday. Installed bullshits about privacy and once you're done and run it, FF opens a tab in which it tells you they spy on you. Screw them.

zelly 7y ago

For a company that cares so much about developers, they should have known better than to mess with the sacred cow that is Firefox.

ulkesh 7y ago

I completely understand that this is not exactly what anyone wants to see in the Start menu or any other actively used feature of Windows. But I find this considerably less egregious than Microsoft buying Github, or "embracing" Linux, as if it only has the open source community's welfare at heart. Microsoft is a for-profit, public company. They will do anything and everything in their own self-interest and to please their shareholders. While I have certainly posted my disdain in the past, especially for the Github buyout, I put this squarely in the same vein as when Canonical put Amazon search ads in the Dash on Ubuntu. It was a mistake for Canonical then, and it's a mistake for Microsoft now. If Microsoft truly want to show they're different, then they can put ads where the ads belong -- in the Microsoft App Store, or on television or other streaming media. Still using Firefox? Of course, we are. And we will continue to do so.

terrycody 7y ago

I am using firefox and I love it so much!

mmgutz 7y ago

Does it also do the same for Chrome?

tripzilch 7y ago

I wonder if anti-ads actually aren't allowed where I live (in NL), or whether we just think they are below us.

use___net 7y ago

M$ worst company ever!