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Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content Recognition

• partiallypro 7y ago
  For my last TV I intentionally tries to find a non-Smart TV, in part because of the privacy stuff, but also it always is in your face about wanting you to use the SmartTV features. Unfortunately Samsung and LG really have no competition on the higher end of the spectrum anymore.
• suff 7y ago
  Fortunately, you can specify your own DNS to point at a black hole proxy like: https://pi-hole.net https://pi-hole.net
  • krastanov 7y ago
    My understanding is that newer DNS-over-<thing> like DoH would make this impossible...
    • Eikon 7y ago
      Not really once DoH is supported at the OS level. Pi-hole would be able to implement a DoH server, providing similar functionality as today. Pi-hole like solutions are not working when DNS requests are made from the application, ignoring local resolvers configuration.
  • reaperducer 7y ago
    Or you could just not connect your TV to your internet connection.
    • Pulcinella 7y ago
      I imagine the thinking is that if the TV is not connected to any WiFi, it might try to connect to something public or non-password protected neighbornet so it’s better to connect it to something non-functional rather than unconnected. Of course, the TV could just lie about what it’s doing anyway...
      • Twinklebreeze 7y ago
        I wish there were more dumb TVs on the market. What kind of dystopian market is it where you can't even trust an appliance you own to not spy on you.
        • reaperducer 7y ago
          I think it's because the phrase, "None of your business" has fallen out of common use. I would hear that all the time when I was a kid. I don't think I've heard it in public in decades. Or maybe I was just a nosy kid.
  • Johnny555 7y ago
    It'd be safer to do firewall blocking, since the TV could fall back to a well known public resolver (i.e. 8.8.8.8) or even do DNS over HTTPS to a known Samsung IP. Though blocking is a little harder if you want to use built-in apps of the TV (i.e. Netflix) while blocking it from sending viewing data to Samsung or its affiliates. Though if you really want to keep the TV from spying on you, the easiest thing to do is to just not connect it to the internet (which is still an option in these pre-5G days, not sure that will always be the case in the future, the TV may have a built-in 5G modem that it can use to talk back to the manufacturer)
  • gruez 7y ago
    And what do you do if the screenshots get uploaded to the same domain as the other API endpoints needed for smart TV functionality? At that point your only option would be to disconnect from the internet directly.
• criddell 7y ago
  How did we go from a country that made it a crime to share video rental records to one where everything you watch is constantly monitored and monetized?
  • fosk 7y ago
    Slowly, and then all of a sudden.
  • JustSomeNobody 7y ago
    Too many people saying, “I have nothing to hide.” Also, people like “free” stuff.
    • asdkhadsj 7y ago
      It's not even a free problem, it's general pricing. Companies constantly seek ways to increase profits, while customers constantly seek bargain basement pricing.Electronic privacy is not a problem people have dealt with at large, I think. People also often view the competency of corporations much higher than the HN crowd typically does. I think this is the same for any category of information though. Informed people will heavily advise against things that the public just has no idea on. Health is a big one. My question is what can we do aside from running around in panic? It feels hopeless.
      • ethbro 7y ago
        Mandate transparent disclosure. Consumers don't care about these schemes because they largely don't know the details. There should be clear, tobacco-esque disclosure requirements of this sort of thing on the product packaging. If Samsung et al. want to data mine their customers in exchange for lower pricing, they're welcome to do so. What should not be legal is doing so and appearing the same as a company who does not do so. Then the market can make up its own mind.
        • inetknght 7y ago
          Transparent disclosure doesn't mean shit when the company can honestly say what it's doing and there's zero repercussions for it.
• egdod 7y ago
  You can disable this feature, but of course you have to trust the manufacturer that it’s actually disabled. And if the manufacturer were trustworthy, they wouldn’t be doing things like this to begin with.
  • blackhaz 7y ago
    We need something to firewall the Internets from our too-smart house stuff! Something like an inverse firewall. A waterwall.
    • JadeNB 7y ago
      Blocking unwanted egress is already accepted as possibly part of the functionality of a firewall (see, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egress_filtering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egress_filtering ); there's nothing inherently 'reverse' about it. Indeed, note the symmetry in Wikipedia's definition of a firewall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(computing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(computing) ): > In computing, a firewall is a network security system that monitors and controls incoming and outgoing network traffic based on predetermined security rules. A firewall typically establishes a barrier between a trusted internal network and untrusted external network, such as the Internet.
      • blackhaz 7y ago
        I was trying to joke here. The untrusted network in our case is the internal network. In that sense.
        • JadeNB 7y ago
          > I was trying to joke here. The untrusted network in our case is the internal network. In that sense. Sure, and I'm sorry to miss the joke; but I think that it's nothing new that the internal network is untrusted. Before one ever had connected and untrusted smart appliances, one still had untrusted software running on one's general-purpose computer, and it was (and remains) often desireable to fence off that software from the outside world. Little Snitch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Snitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Snitch), for example, was designed around exactly that idea.
• tooMuchCensor 7y ago
  Samsung is a pretty shady company. Their high priced, medium product quality, lots of advertising is a red flag for any consumer. If you ask your friends, they likely had terrible experiences with everything from TVs, appliances, phones, and SSDs. Online and offline their marketing presence rivals Apple and Nintendo.
• joeblau 7y ago
  If you buy a smart TV, disable these features, disable network connectivity, and then plug in another 3rd party box you should be fine right?
  • TheEnder8 7y ago
    What makes you think the third party box is any better?
    • kenrose 7y ago
      If it’s one you build yourself (e.g. Raspberry Pi with Kodi), it will be.
      • kccqzy 7y ago
        That's by definition not a third party box any more.
        • allannienhuis 7y ago
          Isn't it third party from the tv vendor? I think that was the implied context. Although If you consider yourself as the vendor who built the device (did you really?) that would be first-party I guess.
    • andrewstuart2 7y ago
      If I do banking on my TV via an HTPC I've hooked up, e.g. lots of setups that have a TV as an external monitor, I don't want those being screenshot. TVs are used for a lot more than strictly TV.
  • ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    Unlikely, because the third-party box probably uploads screenshots or does something equally noxious as well, if not today, then in the not-too-distant future.
    • 7y ago
• maxton 7y ago
  Stuff like this is the reason I don’t connect smart TVs to the internet. If I need web content on the TV, I can connect my laptop with HDMI. The TV should be no more than a display and speakers with a tuner.
  • soared 7y ago
    To each their own - 100% of the content I consume is Netflix or YouTube. For me a non-smart tv is useless unless I hook up something smart to it.
    • thematt 7y ago
      But you could plug in a Roku or a Fire TV, right? The TV can't proxy through those. It's maybe cringeworthy to say, but I probably trust those companies more than I do Samsung.
      • Koshkin 7y ago
        You do not need to "trust," just read their respective Privacy Statements and you'll see for yourself.
        • freeflight 7y ago
          This is not an argument, like not at all, it's just a distraction from the issue: Trampling all over user-rights because somewhere in hundreds of pages of ToS/EULA legal-speak there's a clause hidden supposedly justifying it all. Here's some reality: "You’d Need 76 Work Days to Read All Your Privacy Policies Each Year" [0] and that was back in 2012. Since then ToS, EULA, Privacy Statement and whatnot have only expanded in scope, people use even more services these days and thus accept even more terms. You'd need a dedicated law team doing all the reading and interpreting for you if you want to realistically stay informed about all that consent you've given, without having to give up large parts of your productivity just checking and tracing what weird things you supposedly agreed to [1]. There need to be some well-established limits that won't just rely on users supposedly hand-waving all their privacy away, that way the USG might actually even go back to honoring the Fourth Amendment [2]. [0] http://techland.time.com/2012/03/06/youd-need-76-work-days-to-read-all-your-privacy-policies-each-year/ http://techland.time.com/2012/03/06/youd-need-76-work-days-t... [1] https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agreed/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine
• spartas 7y ago
  I run pi-hole and have a Samsung smart TV. How do I know that the Samsung DNS servers are being blocked? What prevents Samsung from registering new meaningless-sounding DNS names and continually pushing out TV software updates peddling “Security and bugfix” release notes?
  • mrweasel 7y ago
    Forget the Pi-hole, just don’t connect your TV to the internet. I have yet to see a smart-tv which work well enough and fast enough to be of any use anyway.
  • Twinklebreeze 7y ago
    This is the exact reason I didn't buy a Samsung smart TV 2 weeks ago. My wife reminded me about ads, so I looked into using Pihole. It wasn't guaranteed to work, so I went with a brand that won't run ads on a TV I paid for. That is a big pet peeve of mine. I hate ads, and refuse to watch them if I pay. I don't pay for the privilege of viewing ads.
  • nsomaru 7y ago
    Just block all traffic from the TV at router level or don’t give it the WiFi password in the first place
  • iotku 7y ago
    >How do I know that the Samsung DNS servers are being blocked? Would have to know all of the domains that the TV connects through, that they're in one of pihole's blocklists, and the TV actually respects the DNS setting entirely and doesn't have any hard coded IP addresses >What prevents Samsung from registering new meaningless-sounding DNS names and continually pushing out TV software updates peddling “Security and bugfix” release notes? Nothing. The real solution is to not connect any smart devices (especially stuff like TVs) to the internet as most are inherently untrustworthy. Maybe a whitelisting system on a firewall would be more appropriate than a blacklisting system on something like pihole.
  • petepete 7y ago
    I made the mistake of buying a Samsung TV a few years ago. I created this guide[0] which gained some traction. Also, I'm pretty sure they do upload something recognisable because one time (2-3 years ago) I accidentally pressed the 'social' button on the remote while I was watching premier league football on Sky Sports (via a separate satellite box) and the TV started showing me relevant tweets about the match. I'm definitely not buying a 'Smart TV' next time. [0] https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4bcef1e52 https://gist.github.com/peteryates/b44b70d19ccd52f62d66cdd4b...
• nabla9 7y ago
  If only there was good guy ISP service that would maintain blocking list for these and all tracking tools so that even clueless people are safe.
  • Eikon 7y ago
    They would be sued to hell as the role of an isp is not to be a regulator of what a company can and can not do.
    • nabla9 7y ago
      It could be sold as security feature for additional $1 per year.
      • Eikon 7y ago
        Same issue. Once you enter subjective territory of what is good and what is bad, you are looking for troubles, especially if a for profit company is behind providing such a service. An obvious conflict of interest arises.
      • RandomBacon 7y ago
        Try $5 a month. $2.99 if you're lucky. I'm surprised ISPs aren't providing this service already. Just run a virtual PiHole for your customers.
        • o-__-o 7y ago
          Most ISPs are also content providers, so they may not be able to based on contract agreements they have (e.g. to get the nbc app preinstalled on a roku, they cannot block xyz domains on any of their corporate networks)
    • decebalus1 7y ago
      why? Net neutrality has been struck down. The ISP can basically throttle/block whatever they feel like, right?
• rohan1024 7y ago
  Few reasons why I prefer dumb TVs, just a flat LED panel: 1. You have control over bullshit like this 2. You can make them smart by attaching the external box 3. You don't have to throw the TV because your Software is now old, just change the box. 4. There's new format which requires hardware support (av1 is coming), change the box. 5. Want to add new hardware? Upgrade the box.
  • JadeNB 7y ago
    Exactly the same list of reasons why manufacturers now only want to sell you smart TVs, and dumb panels are so hard to find.
    • pjmlp 7y ago
      I just need to go to the local Media Markt store to find a couple of dumb ones.
      • Nextgrid 7y ago
        They're either old stock (which means you wouldn't get new features like HDR, etc) or really low quality ones (which means you're compromising on display quality, reliability, etc).
        • pjmlp 7y ago
          Not the ones I usually see on sale.
    • hondadriver 7y ago
      Philips Momentum monitors...
      • e40 7y ago
        Reviews are saying burnin is really bad with the 43" model.
  • 7y ago
• kawsper 7y ago
  I think I read that Roku does this as well, and it does cause a lot of strange traffic on our network, which is why I want to get rid of our Roku. I'm considering replacing it with an Apple TV when a new version hits the streets.
  • caconym_ 7y ago
    At least Roku can only capture screenshots of content it's serving from itself. Not that I'm defending this practice in any way, but it's significantly less disturbing than my TV doing the same thing. What if I'm using my TV to watch [homemade] porn, or browsing sensitive personal data on a PC connected to the TV, or something like that? Sounds like Samsung will get screenshots of all my content, regardless of what it is or which input it's coming through.
    • Pxtl 7y ago
      See, that seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for Samsung. If it's my content and they're taking a copy and you're living in a place where clickthrough EULAs are illegal, they're violating copyright.
• mrtksn 7y ago
  People like subsidized stuff. People who subsidize things like to do it only when they are paid more than the subsidies they give and they are paid based on who they subsidize because the people who are paying the subsidizers must go to the subsidized people and take their money for the subsidies. It's a rock-solid business model with a requirement to know your customers, it's not going away unless a better alternative is invented.
  • jl2718 7y ago
    This is specifically about privacy, which relates to targeting and tracking, not all ads. Most user data is completely useless to advertisers, but there is a mania for it right now. Perhaps it will end when ML people from CS backgrounds learn Bonferroni.
    • mrtksn 7y ago
      How I see it is an optimization problem about paying a downpayment to get your device and after that paying instalments through purchases of unrelated goods and services down the line. The advertisement agencies are the creditors and the debt collectors and they try to optimize for accuracy of targeting. The more accurate they are the ticker is their margins.
  • pessimizer 7y ago
    Businesses don't leave money on the table. "Smart" features don't subsidize the purchase price, they just add to the margin. If companies tacitly collude to keep dumb TVs off the market, surveillance is a tide that will lift all of their boats.
  • josho 7y ago
    But consumers are not being informed that they’ve bought a subsidized tv. For example, Several salespeople have told me in the past few weeks that none of their TVs serve ads. Looking deeper into the TVs the salesperson was clearly wrong. Few consumers even know to ask the question. Even fewer know that the sales guy is wrong.
• kawsper 7y ago
  Washington Post had an article about this here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat... it was also discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• cityzen 7y ago
  I have my samsung spy device blocked at the router. Always amazed at the level of bullshit consumers have to put up with.
• toddmorey 7y ago
  Would love seeing the materials Samsung uses to market this “feature” to their partners.
• tjoff 7y ago
  The solution most of us fall back to is to never connect a smart tv to the internet. But that is not a long term solution. It is only a matter of time before devices start shipping with their own sim card that you can not turn off. I don't know what else to do but to focus on manufacturers that don't do this in the first place. If there are any.
  • dev_tty01 7y ago
    Remote comms with no user intervention or control is already happening in medical devices. Almost certainly coming to consumer devices soon.
• isoprophlex 7y ago
  And because these things will connect to any open WiFi network, you have to open them up and work over the networking components with a Dremel. Only then can you be really sure it doesn't fuck you over. My Samsung asshole tv started showing banner ads overlayed on hdmi signals, already in... 2017 or so? Fuck these practices.
• kiwee 7y ago
  Unfortunately all vendors do it. Here is how to disable it, for most brands: https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1518081245 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id...
  • stragies 7y ago
    On my recent LG WebOS-TV Netflix and Amazon Prime wont start anymore after that.
  • driverdan 7y ago
    Here is how to disable it for all brands: Don't connect your TV to the internet.
    • kirstenbirgit 7y ago
      Exactly. I wouldn't trust any TV where it's even an option.
    • hatch_q 7y ago
      Some of the newer TVs need to be configured with internet access to even work.
      • WiseWeasel 7y ago
        I'd return it and get a different manufacturer.
      • eps 7y ago
        Got specific examples? Bold claims require proper sources.
      • EpicEng 7y ago
        I just bought a new TV and found zero examples of that from any manufacturer.
    • Silhouette 7y ago
      If only that were a future-proof strategy. :-(
• dev_tty01 7y ago
  It is simple. Never ever connect the TV to the internet. Use a third party box (or computer) you trust to handle the streaming connection. Apple has fairly reasonable privacy policies for Apple TV. Other boxes may as well. Related anecdote. My TV needed an update via internet. I noticed that there was no way to delete a wifi password, meaning once connected it was game over. The only solution was to setup temporary wifi credentials, do the update, then change the router credentials again. The TV also asks for wifi credentials to show you help pages. So, enable help and game over for connectivity and privacy. Nice.
  • alibert 7y ago
    A note for other boxes, especially the nVidia Shield. It's my top blocked client on my home network with pi-hole. It tries to connect to api.segment.io every 30 seconds.
  • kitsunesoba 7y ago
    FWIW my Sony TV has an option to update via a thumb drive, which is exactly what I did since it’s not connected to the internet. Worked great.
  • 29083011397778 7y ago
    > My TV needed an update via internet. How could it possibly know it needed an update? And what could your advantage be letting it update, considering it would otherwise be forever air-gapped?
    • dev_tty01 7y ago
      I knew it needed an update. It was a high-speed HDMI bug that required a software update. I learned about it via internet searching.
  • ReptileMan 7y ago
    At some point piracy is just better, not only cheaper.
• castratikron 7y ago
  So who is going to start the FOSS smart TV firmware alternative that I can use as a replacement for Samsung firmware? Or do DRM requirements for apps like Netflix make that impossible?
• A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  I initially thought it is anti-piracy measure, but then I slowly recognized that I live in a world where my proclivities are captured, measured, and then sold to whoever thinks they call sell me stuff. I never thought I would say it, I liked previous regime better. At least there was a clear distinction.
• Lutzb 7y ago
  As soon as 5G is widely available, TV manufacturers will most definitely include a modem in each set. A GDPR style regulation is needed.
• Koshkin 7y ago
  Not sure what the problem is. The user consents to this by saying 'yes' when they are asked if they agree with the Terms and Conditions.
  • Macha 7y ago
    It's hard to argue a click through agreement presented after they already bought the TV represents informed consent. I know rejecting it on my Samsung TV just reset the wizard
  • quadrangle 7y ago
    You forgot the /s sarcarsm mark
  • jlgaddis 7y ago
    > Not sure what the problem is. The user consents to this by saying 'yes' when they are asked if they agree with the Terms and Conditions. That right there is the problem!
• rambojazz 7y ago
  Where does it say "screenshot"?
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • matthew-wegner 7y ago
    "Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched"
• EddieCPU 7y ago
  That sure is one hell of a privacy policy: Information we may collect automatically includes information about: access code , advertising IDs , apps and features you use , app usage information , clickstream data , connections to certain Services , connections to other devices , current software version , device model , device settings , Google Ad ID , hardware model , IMEI number , IP address , log information , MAC address , MNC , mobile network operator , non-persistent device identifiers , Personalized Service ID , referrer pages , sales code , search terms , serial number , subscription information , use of third-party websites , web browser characteristics , web pages you visit
  • aritmo 7y ago
    Practically, a Smart TV is an oversize mobile phone that you use in landscape mode. In that respect, all ad-supported revenue for a phone is extended to the smart TVs.
• geophile 7y ago
  Could something like pi hole fix this problem, without disabling services such as Netflix?
• myrandomcomment 7y ago
  My Samsung TVs are not connected to the internet. I have never even run the “setup” on them as it turns out you can name inputs and change video settings without excepting any terms. Also before someone post “they look for open WiFi” again it would be great to have proof of that statement that has been made 100 times. Anyway, I was thinking about the screenshots. I wonder what happens if it could not ID the program? Does a human review? It would be a blast to take some shots of Samsung executives and family members and do some deep fake work on them, maybe including Kim Jong Un and some North Korea propaganda broadcast. Except all the terms, hook up to the internet and play the fakes and the propaganda for a month at a time. Just saying..
  • rvp-x 7y ago
    My TV has an obnoxious full volume boot sound unless you connect it to the internet :-/
• dbg31415 7y ago
  What DNS settings do I need to change to block this shit? Covered under default Pi-hole settings?
• hindsightbias 7y ago
  Would this cover using your TV as a monitor only? Theoretically, the monitor could recognize/screenshot your wifi/account setup information (presuming passwords weren’t *-out), do recognition on it, and then log itself into your wifi while pretending to be a dumb monitor.
• drclau 7y ago
  We are beyond fighting this with technical solutions. This can only be properly fixed via regulations and laws. Unless it can be proven that certain information is required for the product to function, it should not be collected. If it is required, it should only be stored for as long as technically necessary. I am not familiar with the details of GDPR. Does it help in this particular case?
• lpgauth 7y ago
  Samsung Smart TVs do not take screenshots as far as I know. They do audio and video fingerprinting. It would be way too costly and inificient to upload screenshots for content recognition (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognitio...). Disclaimer: I work for Samsung, but not directly in the TV software.
  • mkarliner 7y ago
    So, they do video fingerprinting? To me, that means that they can identify what you are watching, which I think is what the OP was pointing out, regardless of mechanism. Mike (ex-CTO Shazam)
  • matthew-wegner 7y ago
    It's right there in the linked text: "Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched"
  • thinkingemote 7y ago
    It could be great if you can get clarification from your colleagues
• buddylw 7y ago
  I'm getting ready to go full Battlestar Galactica in all of my appliances. It's now difficult to find high end washers and ovens without these features. At least right now we can choose not to connect the devices, but what happens if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether, like with Tesla and other high end modern cars? I don't think I'm just being a Luddite. This really seems like a bad idea. We need some way to assure security and limit data collection.
  • Barrin92 7y ago
    privacy legislation like the GDPR is a good start. In the US at least California seems on their way to come up with stronger privacy legislation and hopefully it'll spill over.
  • kop316 7y ago
    Thankfully it isn't quite that simple for electronics in the US. If it is sold commericially, it has to be registered with the FCC. In this way, you at least know if it has WiFi, LTE, etc, and can see the module that is installed on it. This makes it much easier to go into the device and physically disable the radios on it. Heck, maybe that is something like iFixit could do, have a how to to completely remove radio capabilities.
    • echelon 7y ago
      The average consumer won't be able (or even know) to disable built-in telemetry. As you can see from Facebook, invasive ads, DNA kits, and Alexa, most won't even care. We've lost this battle. Our warnings weren't strong enough to win over those interested in convenience.
      • duckMuppet 7y ago
        Well if they aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to hide...
        • mnm1 7y ago
• sambull 7y ago
  Also the FBI recommends you have a separate network segment for your TV/IoT devices [0]. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-recommends-that-you-keep-your-iot-devices-on-a-separate-network/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-recommends-that-you-keep-y...
• Zelphyr 7y ago
  My Vizio that I’ve had for years recently popped up an “opt in” that asked me to allow them to track my usage. Except it wasn’t opt in at all. I couldn’t use any of their services if I didn’t agree to let them track me. So I promptly did a factory reset and now we use the AppleTV exclusively with that TV. It is not only the last Vizio product I’ll ever own but I’ll go out of my way to find a dumb tv the next time I need one, if such a thing exists by then.
• jerrac 7y ago
  Is this the sections the OP is referring to with their link title? > Your TV viewing history includes information about the networks, channels, websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV and the amount of time spent viewing them. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched.
  • aritmo 7y ago
    Yes, this is the section. The Smart TV has many inputs, including PC input (if you connect with your computer), Camera input (to watch the photos you took with your camera), Chromecast streaming from your phone. The wording in this section syas that any of these are fair play to be sent over to the manufacturer for recognition purposes.
• thdrdt 7y ago
  It is possible to post to a Samsung endpoint so we can help them gather data? This is why I never connect my TV to the internet and made it 'smart' via the HDMI input. Next step is to rebuild my house as Faraday cage.
• samstave 7y ago
  This has been a reality for years. I can't tell you how I know this - but I can tell you it has been a fact for more than five years.
• plg 7y ago
  not if I don't connect the damn thing to my network ... right?
• saganus 7y ago
  If you don't want to read the whole thing, the content recognition part is this: > Viewing Information Services This privacy notice should be read in conjunction with the Samsung Privacy Policy, which also applies to your receipt of customized Smart TV experiences and can be found at https://www.samsung.com/us/account/privacy-policy/ https://www.samsung.com/us/account/privacy-policy/. In order to provide you with customized Smart TV experiences, some of our feature and services will rely on your TV viewing history and Smart TV usage information. Your TV viewing history includes information about the networks, channels, websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV and the amount of time spent viewing them. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched.
• deogeo 7y ago
  > Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched. Can this upload screenshots even if you use the TV as a mere monitor?
  • aritmo 7y ago
    The wording of the privacy policy does not preclude getting video snippets from the PC input. Unless the wording changes, it can be assummed that it can be affected as well.
    • deogeo 7y ago
      I suppose if I film a sex tape and watch it on a Samsung TV, it will upload images from that as well.
• ecmascript 7y ago
  This is one of the big reasons I bought a projector instead of a large tv. Because all the large(r) TVs came with "smart" crapware in them. I just need a HDMI port. Please. Let there be options for us that's not only a friggin' projector.
• jakereps 7y ago
  I discovered this "feature" when I set up a PiHole on my home network. After a few days I noticed that my TV was phoning home on an almost minute-by-minute basis. After digging into the URL (which had the acr in it), I read a few posts about their data collection and immediately lobotomized my TV (reset to factory) and disconnected it from the network. There is no universe where the manufacturer of my television needs to know what I'm watching on it.
• troydavis 7y ago
  I'm not surprised that most mainstream buyers don't know about this, but I'm surprised that this is still news to HN readers. In addition to past HN coverage (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930 and others), in the last year it's been in NYT, WaPo, Consumer Reports, and tons of other places. That said, if anyone doesn't already at least skim the privacy policies of any networked devices they own… now is a good time. Even retailers often sell your info. For example, Target "may share your personal information with other companies." Crate & Barrel may share "a record of any transactions you conduct on our Website or offline" with third parties. The defaults are worse than any reasonable person would expect. (Have a few extra dollars? Consider spending it on a DIY public service campaign. I've been promoting https://twitter.com/simpleoptout/status/1191029269691957249 https://twitter.com/simpleoptout/status/1191029269691957249 and other tweets to followers of Samsung's Twitter accounts.)
• nemoniac 7y ago
  So why isn't there a market for open source TVs? Wouldn't that make sense? Or is it a similar story to printers?
• mlacks 7y ago
  The answer to connected TVs is commercial display. These are "dumb TVs" that you've seen 10K times at airports manufactured by the usual suspects such as Sony, NEC, LG, and yes - even Samsung. They are offered in 4K, have plenty of ports, and are price competitive to smart TVs https://www.necdisplay.com/category?category=displays#1 https://www.necdisplay.com/category?category=displays#1 https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/small-displays https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/small-displays
  • 3guk 7y ago
    As someone who installs commercial displays, I wouldn't quite call them "price competitive" in many cases, the commercial displays cost considerably more than a domestic set with a somewhat equivalent feature set. Surely the answer is just not connecting your set to the internet in the first place, and if you absolutely must have Apps or internet connected features, then something like an AppleTV (Apple being at least vaguely privacy focused), would be ideal ?
  • troydavis 7y ago
    I tried this. At least for larger sizes, the price premium is often 2x or more. Also, finding HDR - let alone HDR, HDMI-CEC ("Turn on the TV when the source comes on"), and ARC ("Generate decent audio without two cables") - is hard: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664952 It's hard to find a consumer TV that doesn't have HDR, CEC, and ARC in 2019. Commercial displays may have other missing features I don't know to look for. Anyway, expect a 200%+ premium for a product that in nearly all respects is inferior for this task.
• Trias11 7y ago
  >>>Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., along with our affiliates and subsidiaries, (collectively, “Samsung”) knows how important privacy is to our customers. Translated: Samsung spits in the face of customers and will do everything in it's power to monetize users private information without compensating users in any way, shape or form.
• maxmax 7y ago
  Roku has been doing that forever, and now all those cheap TCL TVs are doing it too. Keep this in mind, especially if you use one of these in a productivity context. https://docs.roku.com/published/userprivacypolicy/en/us https://docs.roku.com/published/userprivacypolicy/en/us https://test.tcl.com/eu/en/privacy-notices-smart-tv-services.html https://test.tcl.com/eu/en/privacy-notices-smart-tv-services...
• Trias11 7y ago
  What if all Samsung appliance buyers will buy and then return Samsung appliances back to store because of unacceptable data collection policy?
• ReptileMan 7y ago
  My girlfriend asked why I carry a gun around the house? I looked her dead in the eye and said, "the motherfucking Decepticons". She laughed, I laughed, the toaster laughed, I shot the toaster, it was a good time.
• alistproducer2 7y ago
  I use Pihole and block all my appliances and other traffic I deem unusual or unnecessary. Its also very useful forensically if I suspect shenanigans on my network. I recommend it to everyone.
• Scoundreller 7y ago
  So uhhhhh, my Samsung TV got stolen, can I compel them to cough up information leading to its current location?
• notduncansmith 7y ago
  It’s hard to believe Samsung has any customers outside of their Korean hegemony. Samsung hasn’t proven themselves as a trustworthy smart electronics vendor in the past, be it smart TV, smart watch, or smart phone: 2015 - https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-changes-smarttv-privacy-policy-in-wake-of-spying-fears/ https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-changes-smarttv-privacy-po... 2015 - https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/new-exploit-turns-samsung-galaxy-phones-into-remote-bugging-devices/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/new-e... 2015 - https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-lg-smartwatches-yield-personal-data-to-researchers/ https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-lg-smartwatches-yield-pers... 2015 - https://www.techhive.com/article/2881944/samsungs-latest-smart-tv-snafu-injects-pepsi-ads-into-your-personal-videos.html https://www.techhive.com/article/2881944/samsungs-latest-sma... 2016 - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/19/samsung-galaxy-s6-explosion-lawsuit-note-7-recalls https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/19/samsung-g... 2018 - https://betanews.com/2018/07/03/samsung-messages-photo-bug/ https://betanews.com/2018/07/03/samsung-messages-photo-bug/ 2018 - https://www.consumerreports.org/televisions/samsung-roku-smart-tvs-vulnerable-to-hacking-consumer-reports-finds/ https://www.consumerreports.org/televisions/samsung-roku-sma... That’s not to mention they’ve been found price fixing, astroturfing, embezzling, and bribing. Vote with your dollar.
  • amphibian87 7y ago
    I agree, Samsung doesn't deserve our money. I boycotted Samsung after they destroyed my perfectly good Galaxy s5 with software updates. Sadly, the Pixel I got next wasn't much better. They dominate certain RAM markets though, and that's kind of unfortunate.
    • kowbell 7y ago
      I had an S5 too, and actually still have it in case I ever need a backup (e.g. last week when _my_ Pixel started getting caught in an infinite boot loop!) Though I hadn't noticed the S5 being destroyed by software updates - the only reason I stopped using it is because they stopped updating it and it was locked from custom ROMs, which was a sad conclusion because it had still decent hardware. Could you elaborate on the villainous updates you encountered?
• xphilter 7y ago
  This is not new. It’s been embedded in tvs for years. You can thank judges who don’t care about consumer privacy and mandatory arbitration clauses for the spreading of this junk. If consumers could sue these companies none of this would be happening.
• NewEntryHN 7y ago
  Not sure if it's available to everybody or just Europeans, but there is a checkbox to disable it (I don't remember whether it's checked by default or not). Settings -> Support -> Terms & Policies -> disable "Viewing Information Services" (there is detailed information about what this checkbox entails, and it includes using ACR on screenshots) Could be a placebo button of course, but that would be a pretty big violation of GDPR and a risk for a huge fine.
• lancewiggs 7y ago
  The simple answer for any new TV, as Samsung is not at all alone here, is to never connect it to the internet.
• xtat 7y ago
  Lets say you work with private data such as something under HIPAA- does the liability fall to you for buying one of these or could you go after Samsung?
• danmg 7y ago
  If you just point out that it would ID what types of porn you ware watching, it would make enough buyers opt out.
• tqi 7y ago
  Are they uploading screenshots or hashes?
• tus88 7y ago
  Truly WTF.
• mensetmanusman 7y ago
  That’s why we use projectors.
• acd 7y ago
  Can we stop calling these things smart. What is smart about devices sharing user data with companies?
  • userbinator 7y ago
    They're smart enough to be rebellious...
• dburenok 7y ago
  The solution is simple. Stop watching TV and read lol
• userbinator 7y ago
  The old Soviet Russia and Orwell jokes have taken on a whole new meaning in these "modern times"... 6 years ago it was discovered --- through packet inspection --- that LG TVs actually did something similar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6759426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6759426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6778397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6778397 Now I bet they're all using TLS and won't let you trust your own certificates, making it even more difficult to MITM it and verify what exact information it's sending. For those who don't mind a bit of DIY, you can "lobotomize" a smart TV by replacing the main board with a dumb one of the type used in computer monitors --- there are many online sellers of these, just search for "LVDS board" or "scaler board". You will need to know the model of the panel, and the seller should be able to help with that since the board needs to be programmed with the correct parameters for the panel it's driving. Something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32860791745.html https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32860791745.html
  • Nostra 7y ago
    __
• daveheq 7y ago
  Just don't buy a smart tv, don't connect it to internet, cover its camera, and disable its microphone if possible. These things are cyberdystopic surveillance devices
• Thorentis 7y ago
  Well, that just justifies my decision to never buy a TV. Yes yes, I own a smartphone already. But I've tried to lock it down as much as possible by deactivating some services, limiting which apps I install. There will always be some tracking if you own a phone by the carrier anyway. But TV's are becoming a whole other thing. I also just hate free-to-air TV, hate having a black void in the living room begging to be switched on, and I hate the effect it has on kids. A projector that only comes out on special movie nights is more than enough. And a laptop to watch Netflix or something with my wife is better than having a TV.
• ironschool 7y ago
  Surprisingly, why are we talking about TVs only? It says they can collect photos stored on the device (including phones I guess), isn't that the the prime crime?
• wurst_case 7y ago
  I occasionally use my Samsung tv as a second screen. I can't be sure but I may have had my banking information on screen. Does this mean they are keeping screenshots of that too? Isn't that unlawful?
• m3kw9 7y ago
  If they are gonna do that Lowe th price significantly, let us choose to get screwed or not
• nivenhuh 7y ago
  I join my smart* devices to my network, then add a policy to block all of their traffic on my eero router. Not sure if this is good practice or not — I remember something about there being an attack vector for devices not on a network. Started doing this since.
• nine_k 7y ago
  Good thing large computer monitors are still a thing, and seem to do well. I don't have a single proper TV in my house, because nobody needs them. We can consume whatever video streams we care about via the internet, using computers that I reasonably control. Not an option for non-IT people, though, alas.
• zhsvszkvx 7y ago
  Is it possible to open the TVs and snip snip the wifi/LTE/5G module/antenna? I guess the antenna is hard to snip in 5G since it’s probably part of the circuit board. Are the modules entirely on the cpu chip? Is it possible to screw up the timing (say replacing the crystals) w/out breaking something else?
• alt_f4 7y ago
  Ha, if this disturbs you, wait to see what's going to happen when we perfect under display cameras. Your TV may be watching you, just as much as you're watching it.
• spydum 7y ago
  The days are coming where STBs and TV's can do Direct Ad Insertion right on top of your existing video stream, either augmenting or outright replacing other advertisers content. Going to be super interesting..
• ptcampbell 7y ago
  Not trying to downplay Samsung's sinister behavior, but could you just not connect it to the internet? I was recently shopping for TVs and found it impossible to find a model I liked without this kind of stuff baked in. Then you could plug your Apple TV, Xbox, Chromecast or what-have-you and avoid being tracked — oh wait...
• andymoe 7y ago
  I connect my smart tv to my internet connection and then explicitly block it at the router. (Easy to do with eero - yes yes amazon gets my Mac addresses etc though)
• ferros 7y ago
  > We offer you certain choices in connection with the personal information we obtain about you through the IBA Service. You can opt out of receiving interest-based ads from the IBA Service on your Samsung Smart TV at any time through your Smart TV settings menu, at Menu > Support > Terms & Policy or Menu > Smart Hub > Terms & Policy.
• qmmmur 7y ago
  I pihole on my local network and samsung is the biggest blocked domain on my list with the default block lists. It's INSANE.
• spullara 7y ago
  When we were developing Yahoo TV, which ended up being deployed on a bunch of "smart" TVs for a while one of the things we struggled with was "what are people going to do with this?" First thing that came to mind for me was, "look up the show on imdb.com". One huge issue though was that the TV basically didn't know what was on — the connected devices don't transmit that information. So we started thinking about a database of shows & movies so that we could identify what was on (using audio and video) when someone wanted to find out more about it. Amusingly, we were thinking about user convenience and not about advertising at all. I don't think Yahoo ever shipped that but I am not surprised it exists.
• deepsand 7y ago
  There was a good conversation about this on HN a few months ago [1]. Has anyone successfully blocked unnecessary outbound traffic from their smart TV using a firewall such as pfsense? Whilst maintaining usability. A separate VLAN for IoT devices seems like a good first step. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21002745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21002745
• djsumdog 7y ago
  There are a number of gaming TVs coming out that are essentially big monitors with high refresh rates. They're expensive, but they don't have Ethernet ports, or built in apps or any of that bullshit. I've never connected a TV to Ethernet/Wifi and I don't understand people who have those fucking Amazon/Google/Apple spy devices (aka digital assistants) in their homes. I disable all that shit on my phone too.
  • developerdylan 7y ago
    Any good recommendations?
    • djsumdog 7y ago
      Linus Tech Tips did a review of this one: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/big-format-gaming-displays/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/big-format-gam... ..but in a recent review he actually recommend a high refresh rate LG over it due to price. There might be others too.
• thelittleone 7y ago
  If some dystopian scifi author described in a book 30 years ago what is actually happening today regarding the points of consumer data collection they’d likely be laughed at. The programmatic elimination of any expectation of consumer privacy. Thank fluky we have heroes doing open source projects. Yet open source hardware alternatives remain quite limited or non existent. Can anyone suggest meaningful ways to contribute?
• ssss11 7y ago
  To those in this thread denouncing these dystopian times my question to you is, how do we as technologists create a meaningful and successful career changing this? I’ve been against this for a very long time and can’t see any easy way to contribute (and also provide $ for my family) short of being in government policy making or law making which would require substantial career changes and further education and then some luck.
  • Skunkleton 7y ago
    Unfortunately I don’t think there is a legitimate opportunity to work on this problem, and also have a stable high paying job. At the moment I think the best thing to do is educate people. Eventually, awareness will build and the market will emerge.
    • ssss11 7y ago
      With all the media coverage and growing concern of recent years I was hoping that time had come.. that’s a shame
      • Skunkleton 7y ago
        Well don't take my word for it. I'm just some rando on the internet. There are positive trends too. Apple sees consumer interest in privacy, for example.
  • chillacy 7y ago
    You could pipe a piece of your paycheck to the EFF, a lot of companies have donation matching.
    • ssss11 7y ago
      Yes I’ve considered that (and will probably do so) thanks. I’m looking for contributing though through my career if/when that is possible.
  • iamnothere 7y ago
• ddingus 7y ago
  Which TV's?
• Uhhrrr 7y ago
  Hm, I was pinged by a company (samba.tv) earlier in the year which does exactly this for a number of TV models. They claimed it was always opt-in.
• williesleg 7y ago
  I'd do it if the TV was free.
• scottmcleod 7y ago
  Spoiler alert most TV's in the US already sell this data..
• jadams3 7y ago
  Surprised I haven't read this in thread yet, but isn't this Issue what makes homekit enabled routers appealiNg when they finally release ? As I understand it the router can isolate Internet access on a per device basis. Yes you can VLAN & firewall your way to the same place, but dealing with it at a consumer router level seems like a really great feature of homekit to me. And yes, homekit supported devices are relatively rare and often more expensive, and they don't have a $€|$$> doorbell. But If we are talking about BSG Colonial style dishwashers, then this seems like a small price to pay.
• mikeiz404 7y ago
  Relevant sections: > Viewing Information Services > ... > Your TV viewing history includes information about the networks, channels, websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV and the amount of time spent viewing them. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched. > You may change your privacy choice at any time by going to the settings menu to disable the particular feature or service at your sole discretion, in which case your TV viewing history will cease to be collected for that particular feature or service. > Bear in mind that your privacy choice may affect the availability or quality of the specific viewing information based service. > Interest-Based Advertisement Services > ... > In order to make the advertising on your devices more relevant to you, the IBA service will rely on your TV viewing history (including information about the networks, channels, websites visited, and programs viewed on your Samsung Smart TV and the amount of time spent viewing them), Samsung Smart TV usage information, and other statistical data obtained from trusted third party data sources. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture your TV viewing history. > Based on the information above we create groups of Samsung Smart TV owners who share similar interests and use these groups for the IBA Service. The information above is used to determine the groups to which your Samsung Smart TV is assigned and thus, which advertisements your devices receive. > You may disable the IBA Service at any time by visiting the Settings menu on your Samsung Smart TV. > PSID > Your Smart TV viewing history and usage information collected for the purposes of providing interest based advertisements will be linked to a randomized, non-persistent, and resettable device identifier called the Personalized Service ID or “PSID”. > You may reset your PSID at any time by visiting the Settings menu on your Smart TV and, once reset, your Smart TV viewing history and Smart TV usage information with respect to interest based advertisements will be de-linked from its previous PSID. Bear in mind that if you reset your PSID, the quality of customized and interest based advertisements may not be fine-tuned.
• macawfish 7y ago
  Just another of many reasons to push back against 5G. Enabling this kind of crap is an end goal of 5G.
• visarga 7y ago
  Will Samsung take screenshots even when it runs as a dumb monitor on HDMI or Display Port?
  • Tempest1981 7y ago
    I'm sure they would find value in doing so. To understand what you watch on your set-top boxes (cable TV, Amazon/Google/Roku/AppleTV)
• 3ds 7y ago
  TLDR: the page says: "Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched."
• 3guk 7y ago
  I've listed all of the Telemetry servers that I could find my set connecting to should any of you wish to block them on your local network. https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Telemetry_Servers https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Telemetry_Servers If you guys notice any others, let me know and I can update the list.
• asiachick 7y ago
  I think I wish there was a fine per customer per data item when a data leak happens. That it was 3x if it is discovered the company didn't report it in a timely manner and that it was high enough that companies would be reluctant to collect the data in the first place. not sure what unintended consequences there would be.
• dep_b 7y ago
  This is why you pay more for a Dumb monitor than a Smart TV. The monitor has no avenues to sell your data so all cost and profit needs to be extracted from the consumer through the sales price.
  • MisterTea 7y ago
    Is that really the reason though? I highly doubt they would lower prices because they are compensated by selling our privacy down the river. Mining data is extracting more value, why lower your profits? Before the advent of the smart TV, bumb TV's have always been cheaper than commercial displays or monitors of similar screen spec. The commercial offerings have things like rs232 control, sdi video for long runs, and other features to allow them to be remotely controlled for signage and kiosk use. The dumb TV went away because we're knee deep in cheap SoC's that can both control the TV portion and run hulu and netflix. No boxes, wires or cables. No separate remotes. Digital convenience, aka "faux luxury", is the drug of choice nowadays.
• Cougher 7y ago
  Interesting. So say a couple likes to take nude photos . . . Samsung reserves the right to collect and use those photos if you store them on "your" tv. So you decide that you won't store them there to be "safe", but Samsung can take a screenshot of them anyway?
• cascom 7y ago
  Who offers a non-abusive tv?
• 3guk 7y ago
  I've actually been researching this a little bit more using some of the test sets that I have, and it seems that there might be a way to disable some of these features through the service menu. If you enable the service mode / service menu of the set: https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Service_Menu https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Service_Menu - then navigate to the "Control" sub menu, disable the following settings: Voice Recognition OFF, Network Support NONE, BT Support OFF, Samsung Smart Control OFF With the "Network Support" in particular it seems to disable all internet related settings on the TV. It seems that in some cases this is in the "extended service menu" for which you will need a special remote to access.
• the8472 7y ago
  Note that this is also in the UK privacy policy[0] > We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched. And in the german one[1], which is just a translation > Wir können zur Erhebung dieser Daten die automatische Inhaltserkennung (ACR) und andere Technologien verwenden. Ihr Smart TV ermöglicht die Bestimmung der gesehenen Programme durch Übermittlung von Audio- und Video-Ausschnitten bzw. von Informationen vom TV-Tuner. I doubt that this is defensible under GDPR. [0] https://www.samsung.com/uk/info/privacy/ https://www.samsung.com/uk/info/privacy/ [1] https://www.samsung.com/de/info/privacy/ https://www.samsung.com/de/info/privacy/
• chrisfinazzo 7y ago
  Apologies as the thread is long, but has anyone mentioned Vizio's creepy ACR tactics yet and how they got sued into submission? I got a one for the bedroom about a year ago and although it was priced well for a 4K set, I had already heard about their adventures in getting viewing data on the sly and turned all that crap off as soon as I was able to do so. Sounds like Samsung may well be trending in that direction. We just bought a Q80 to go in our renovated basement and I'm starting to think about all of the small tweaks I'll need to make in order to minimize the data it collects. Hard wired w/ Cat 6, Pi-Hole the ad servers, etc.
• techbio 7y ago
  Is there a Raspbian + dumb (non-monitoring) monitor that’s smarter?
• husamia 7y ago
  privacy is dead!
• wonderhamster 7y ago
  I work on this technology(not for Samsung), they do not upload the screenshots. They upload a cryptographic hash of the image and match it to known content. Also, this is true of nearly every smart TV available for purchase and quickly being integrated into projectors. If you want to turn off the functionality, you will have to go through the feature sets of the devices.