26 ms·

What happens when your career becomes your whole identity

544 points by r0n0j0y 7y ago

not_a_moth 7y ago
Think only problematic insomuch as your career doesn't equal your higher calling, i.e. your career is status driven or following the herd.
- egypturnash 7y ago
  My career is not a high paying one, or one that involves chasing trends. It is a thing I love doing and would be doing on the side if I had another career; I’ve done that in the past. It is still most of my life by default and this does feel like a problem. It is a differently shaped problem than “infinite overtime and trying to constantly present as Rich Enough” but it is a problem. (I am an artist who mostly draws independent long-form narrative comics.)
- coldtea 7y ago
  The problem is most careers don't really qualify as "higher callings". Originally "higher calling" meant a much more important (e.g. scientific, humanitarian, patriotic, artistic, priesthood, etc.) not some person working up a management career in some BS enterprise selling BS through marketing... So while a doctor might have his "higher calling" as career, I doubt that can be the case for the millions of corporate drones...
  - cloverich 7y ago
    You might be surprised to find that many doctors fall into the very description in this article. Higher calling is a social construct and the reality is being a physician is a _lot_ of hours, a lot of BS, and a lot of patients who need self help more than your help. Its in most ways just like any other job, if you don't find some satisfaction in the actual work, you are going to be miserable. Many are.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >the reality is being a physician is a _lot_ of hours, a lot of BS, and a lot of patients who need self help more than your help Sure. In the end though, you help people and occasionally save lives, you don't market and sell sugared soda water, nor are you a middleman in the paper market, or someone that devises new schemes to part people from their money via convincing ads, or tap away at some Dilbert style cube job. So it's more appropriate to be a higher calling (and has historically been seen as such by many doctors) than some cube job. Higher calling jobs still have drudgery and boring parts (plus useless bureaucracy to fight).
dominotw 7y ago
work as identity burnout as lifestyle - erza klien had a good podcast about this llast year.
2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
My mother was very much like this. When she retired, she found it quite hard to re-adjust. Fortunately she has a few hobbies to fall back on. Personally, I find it quite a hard balance to get right. On the one hand, tying your identity whole-heartedly to your profession seems dangerous. On the other, being entirely apathetic about it seems like a waste of a life (that is, one spent mostly at work). I try to hang somewhere in the middle, but it's something I try to stay on top of.
- ryanianian 7y ago
  Love your job and you'll never work a day in your life. Live your job and you won't have any love left to give.
  - 2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
    Very succinctly put!
  - galimaufry 7y ago
    The problem I have with this is that love is a complicated thing. I love playing soccer, but without the social validation of my friends who also play it I would absolutely never practice. Similarly for most careers, even highly lovable ones.
    - abledon 7y ago
      same for jamming blues/jazz. social communication without using words. amazing social cohesion.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523149 I like that outlook >> “Find something you love to do and you’ll never have to work a day in your life” is another college-counseling standby of unknown provenance. > That is probably the biggest load of crap foisted on pop culture in a while. I love what I do, and I work every day. This morning's task is reviewing a help file for accuracy. Hol-ee shite, that's not why I got into programming computers when I was 12. But it needs to be done, and I'm one of the ones that can knowledgeably review it. I really should write that test plan, but I keep putting it off for obvious reasons. Oh, sure, I get to play Puzzle Solver by shuffling some bits around, and it's what I spend most of my days doing, but it ain't all fun and games. > And that's just Working for The Man(tm). Gonna start a brewpub? Maybe an online SaaS business? Oh, my friend, your crap work has just begun; so much so, you might have to leave the fun stuff to your employees. You will work every day, and hard. > Don't get the wrong idea, I look forward to going to work most days, and I've been doing this for a long while. But there's a reason they call it "work", and there's a reason they pay you. Enjoy the hell out of the enjoyable parts, and when the less enjoyable work comes, remember that you are (if of the average HN demographic) paid handsomely for it.
minblaster 7y ago
“ The test of whether people love what they do is whether they'd do it even if they weren't paid for it—even if they had to work at another job to make a living. How many corporate lawyers would do their current work if they had to do it for free, in their spare time, and take day jobs as waiters to support themselves?” http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html If you aren’t honest with yourself about why you got into a profession it may wear against your psyche and burn you out. The lawyer knew chasing status would require a sacrifice of happiness, time, and relationships but didn’t want to admit it.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  I think there's a bias against (corporate) lawyers here. The ones I know would definitely do something very close to their day job. Also, it makes it seem like there's an endless supply of waiter jobs lined up for the the taking. But this has been debated at length on HN https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/find-your-passion-is-terrible-advice/564932/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/find-you... and https://www.theminimalists.com/cal/ https://www.theminimalists.com/cal/
nugget 7y ago
In my experience extreme workaholism can often be a way to avoid or defer major life decisions that someone doesn't want to make or even consciously recognize. High status careers are often structured, full of positive feedback loops, and well compensated, all of which can strengthen the urge to defer existential questions about meaning, purpose, community, and identity until some unspecified future date, even (perhaps especially) in highly rational or analytical thinkers. Eventually the debt comes due but sometimes not until many decades later.
- Winterflow3r 7y ago
  Boy, did I learn this the hard way.
  - marnett 7y ago
    How so?
    - samstave 7y ago
      For me, as I got older, lost passion for what I had been doing for 20 years - and being on the old end of the ageism-specrum-stick... it is hard to deal with. I have left 'Silicon Valley Tech' -- as I am no longer interested in any of the things I did before and seek positions which are more fulfilling in other industries and pay about 25% of what I used to make...
      - momokoko 7y ago
        I am in exactly the same boat. Could not have said it better myself.
        turk73 7y ago
        Me too, but I need help. I have been working on ideas for my "2nd career," well, really it will be my 3rd, but that's beside the point. I need a way out of tech. I have enough money already, I just need a freaking path to another kind of work. It's not been easy. It's either I do what I am doing or it's $15/hr Target cashier type of job. Not bashing the Target cashiers, just making a point.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
quotemstr 7y ago
This anti-work ethic you see crop up once in a while is delusion. Success comes from perseverance, not idleness or detachment. A few days ago, there was an article from some CEO claiming that you don't need to work hard to succeed. Today, we have an article from HBR cautioning about becoming too invested in one's work. This sentiment is dangerous. It's harmful to teach young people to be cynical, indifferent, and lazy, because the vast majority of progress really is made by the passionate and dedicated genius, not the detached crank-turner that HBR writers want impressionable young people to become. Have a few people succeed without trying? Sure. They were stupid and lucky. Are you one of these people? Almost certainly not. Look at the history of science and innovation: the truth that emerges is that breakthroughs come not from relaxation, but from a combination of passion and hard work.
- tuckerconnelly 7y ago
  It may be an effect of the economic bubble we're in. It's an ethos that doesn't survive a crash :)
  - quotemstr 7y ago
    Yes. Kipling's gods of the copybook headings return in a rush when a stock market bubble pops. I wonder to what extent you can predict a crash by sensing when the mood of a society has disconnected effort from reward.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    Or maybe people are working harder each year for decreasing post-inflation-adjusted wages and decreasing benefits, wages are not keeping up with costs in many industries and places, they are stressed out and asking why they put themselves through this. Or perhaps, a scenario that will be familiar to many in tech and I know I have personally witnessed, that some corporate cultures are so completely full of narcissism, and they sweep people up until they think this sort of beast is normal, having a toll on mental health.
- jsmonkey 7y ago
  Working hard is good, but working so hard that you completely neglect rest of your life isn't. For most people's well being things like family and hobbies are at least as important as work, and there's nothing wrong with that. If our economic system doesn't allow them to enjoy those parts of their lives, then the fault lies on the system, not on individuals.
forrestthewoods 7y ago
I love my job. My work is interesting. My peers are delightful. I’ve had great jobs and a great career. My job is not my whole identity. It is 0% of my identity. It’s just a job. If I had FU money I’d peace out tomorrow and work on hobby projects in my spare time. These days I feel like I’m the oddball. I don’t associate my job or hobby with my identity. I couldn’t tell you my “identity” if I tried. I’m a soup of likes, dislikes, hopes, fears, and more. I don’t really understand why people try to put their identity in a tight box with a neat label.
- dorchadas 7y ago
  Completely agree with this. It's one reason why I like being a teacher (and one reason why it'd be hard to leave, even if it's for a job that has a much higher chance of allowing me to make FU money). I have several months off (well, not off as I do have to do stuff, but I can work from home mostly), of the course of the year, to pursue hobbies and basically anything I want to, even if it's just being super lazy. I really enjoy that, and it makes for a much better work-life balance.
viburnum 7y ago
If you’re the kind of person is always troubled by something (most people are), directing that unsettled nagging feeling into your work is the best thing you can do.
jariel 7y ago
Furthermore I fundamentally believe that individuals in this state have their social and political opinions shaped by their enmeshed, single professional identity. I believe professionals such as this are far more likely to only have opions which avoid controversy or are on the side of a social current consistent with those in their industry or customers at large. Their personal choices become indistinguishable from that of a well thought out PR team. In particular I suggest this phenom is right at the root of a lot of localist vs globalist antagonism. Most professionals would probably err on the side of economic liberalism in the more general sense because it makes sense for their enmeshed professional identity. But the personal identity which is obfuscated may have much more connection with the community,uch more likely to know and empathize with those affected. Or maybe even just at odds with the professional identity for whatever reason. When I left my very corporate job it took me months to realise how free I was to have basically any opinion that I wanted and didn't realize how much I must have been orienting my thoughts into a direction that would be acceptable to my peers. (or what I thought would be acceptable). I'm very supportive of the fact there is research on this.
hackworks 7y ago
Analogous to “putting all eggs in a single basket”, the risks are very high. You end up becoming hyper sensitive at work, start taking everything personal -well, it is your identity or ego at stake. Leads be becoming very closed, guarded and aggressive. Everyday becomes a fight for survival. I personally went through this phase for a long time. Looking back, some of my managers exploited this by reinforcing. They knew if they compare me with anyone, I would up the competition and perform even better. This did not cost them money since I had invested myself, my identity and ego 100%. Overall, resulted in a highly competitive team but extremely stressful and caustic! After changing teams, I decided to take a step back and make a fresh start. I now work for the love of my work and do not let it represent who/what I am. It is my identity at work. Back home or with friends, I have a different identity. Having multiple things to fallback has made me more resilient and lot more positive.
- randycupertino 7y ago
  Same thing happened to me. I realized that I actually do better work now that I'm more chilled out and my life is more balanced.
- mmsimanga 7y ago
  I wonder if it is an age thing. Paraphrasing but there is a quote along the lines of the difference between experienced people/managers and inexperienced people is they know which battles to fight. Sadly this is a right of passage, you need to fight the wrong battles first before you realise this. I am in my forties now and so much better at selecting which battles to fight.
  - tartoran 7y ago
    You’re absolutely right. Around this age if not a bit earlier people have seen/experienced enough to see things more clearly. I wonder if this is the reason most SV companies prefer fresher meat.
  - amelius 7y ago
    Might also be why companies prefer youngsters over people who are 40+. The opportunity for exploitation is higher.
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
My pursuit of financial independence consequently led to my career becoming my identity. I've optimized for raising my income and savings to reduce "time to FI", that by the time I get there -- about 4 years, give or take -- that I've become the thing I explicitly set out to remove from my life. It's not that I don't like working, but I wish to do so on my own terms. Maybe that means short-term contracts a few months out of the year, and having that reduced income cover my living expenses, supplemented with investments. I've done the numbers many times, but I've spent little time considering what I'll do with all that extra time.
- echelon 7y ago
  Just curious - what's your financially independent number? Are you factoring in cost of living into your ideal scenario, or is there wiggle room for leisure and travel and the like?
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    $1M, or $40k annually. My rent is about half of my expenses, but I could downsize to a cheaper place and allocate the freed money for travel and leisure. I don't think I'll stop working once I reach $1M. I'd be more open to alternative work arrangements (e.g., temp contracting gigs) closer to $1.5M, to build in wiggle room. Some costs I haven't accounted for (currently subsidized by my employer), like health care, make me feel the "real" FI number is closer $2M as expenses will likely rise with age.
    - yibg 7y ago
      I’ve had the same goal in mind, to get to a point where I can be more flexible with work arrangements. Maybe work part time or work from any location. I’m struggling with doing that though. I’ve already accumulated enough for me to do this, but my income is at its highest currently, and mentally it’s been a struggle to give that up. For the last couple of years it’s been, well let’s just save a bit more to be safe.
    - shaklee3 7y ago
Causality1 7y ago
I wonder what the money equivalent is of the term "first world problems". Millions of Americans spend sixty hours a week at work and still worry about whether they need to give up their health insurance this year so they can afford to replace their fifteen year old car because they'll lose their job if it breaks down and makes them late again.
- rabidrat 7y ago
  I read this as "we should be content with being well-paid wage slaves because there are lots of underpaid wage slaves". Having to give our best 40+ hours every week to simply exist is soul-crushing and society-weakening. If you "need" to have a job, you are more like those struggling millions of Americans than you are like the moneyed elite, even if you aren't stressed about money on a day-to-day basis. You still aren't free.
  - war1025 7y ago
    People by and large don't want to be free. Society is the choice to trade freedom for safety and predictability.
  - Causality1 7y ago
    Happiness scales with income until about the $200,000 mark where it levels off. If you're making six digits you have more in common with Jeff Bezos than you do with someone making minimum wage.
    - Hydraulix989 7y ago
      I don't think that's true in the Bay Area or New York. Having a house instead of renting in either area, for example, has an appreciable boost in happiness.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
What happens? Your marriage suffers (if you have one). Your children suffer (if you have any). And you suffer. And it's not just work. If your side project becomes your whole identity, the same is true.
zomglings 7y ago
This is a thinly veiled advertisement for the author's psychological services - the company they had to start to solve this problem. It is hard to get anywhere in this world without working your ass off. It is a sign of extreme privilege to even have the freedom to complain about it.
- thinkingkong 7y ago
  It is probably a placed piece but it doesnt make the contents untrue. Simultaneously, being enmeshed in your career is not the same as working hard, so why give people a hard time who are reevaluating their life?
  - zomglings 7y ago
    Reasonable question. I can see how my comment comes across as me giving people a hard time but that was not the intention. Working hard is probably step 1 on the road to enmeshment. Just wanted to put forward the opinion that most things worth doing require insane levels of hard work to succeed at. They will become part of your identity. That's not a bad thing.
- OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago
  Well put. The specific case was not compelling and I wonder whether it is even real. A son of highly achieving attorneys learns that corporate law is stressful? Do tell. I was reminded of Tom Lehrer's quip about the fictional inventor of the gallbladder, "He soon became a specialist, specializing in diseases of the rich. He was therefore able to retire at an early age."[1] [1]http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/evening.html http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/evening.html
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    A specialist in diseases for the rich might have to come out of retirement to treat himself.
    - 7y ago
k__ 7y ago
I always feel a bit sad when I see people who are younger than me and much more successful with their career. But on the other hand I don't work much (<20h/week) so it's probably okay.
- noonespecial 7y ago
  People tell me that I didn't "live up to my full potential". I say, "I know. That would have been exhausting."
  - k__ 7y ago
    Good point. It's a bit sad about the missed opportunities, but my privat life is awesome, so it's okay.
overgard 7y ago
I was just rereading this Last Psychiatrist article that this really reminds me of: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/01/randi_zuckerberg.html https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/01/randi_zuckerberg.htm... (Like with all of TLP it meanders a lot and will probably piss you off. It's also highly entertaining!) This is the important bit: > One of our time's great sociological questions is why we filled downtime back up with work, and the reason is it's better than alcoholism. At some point during the Truman Administration home life became more stressful than work life, where stressful is defined either as hysterical drama or rheumatismy boredom, and by Reagan II the home was no longer a respite from modern society's incessant demands to produce or at the very least a place to get a nap. ... > Part of the reason work and home keep mixing despite our professed desires is that that's how Americans were taught to see an aspirational adult life. In every TV show and movie after Leave It To Beaver the gimmick has always been that the protagonist's job and personal life overlap-- doctors in love, CIA agents defending their family, late nights at the office trading zingers or abuse stories. While we no longer think we want the overlap, the shows reinforced the false psychology that a person is something, all the time and everywhere, and the backdrop world "sees" it, accepts it. This applies just as much to negative depictions of work/life overlap, e.g. the obsessed cop whose wife is now divorcing him because of the job: the point isn't that the overlap is "good", that's not the aspiration; the point is that the structure of these depictions represents the fundamental narcissistic fantasy: a fixed and clear identity-- a character-- seen by a potential audience. This is why home is not relaxing: we are working to not let it be all that we are. [emphasis mine]
- marmaduke 7y ago
  That was a great read. I think structures mentioned therein like the medium is the message, the form of the argument vs consequences are excellent examples of cognitive or linguistic framing, ripe for hacking
chriselles 7y ago
I’ve often seen it with military personnel who fail in their transition from their military to post-military lives. Some people invest so much of themselves into just a singular self-identity they are permanently anchored to it unless/until a forcing function compels an existential change. I believe competing interests for time such as passions/hobbies and side hustles provide bridges from one employment career to another. However, the mirror to workaholism is having too many passions/hobbies and side hustles outside of work leading to distraction and dilution. Broad, deep, and substantial focus on singular topics/areas is important, for a time. People want their lives to have meaning, often measured thru impactful and measurable work. But not at the expense of losing one’s option to seek balance and joy.
reddog 7y ago
You can love your job but it will never love you back.
makecheck 7y ago
I’ve seen a few “20 year” or “30 year” managers. I can’t help but wonder how their methods might have varied if they had been exposed to even one other organization’s way of doing things. Also, do they subconsciously value “company-loyal” employees over others with equivalent or superior experience? Generally I feel that varied experiences matter more, even if you get unlucky and spend a handful of years in a less-stellar team.
mrtron 7y ago
I know many farmers.
Animats 7y ago
It beats changing diapers.
mmsimanga 7y ago
We have a saying back home that goes, "umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu" which literally translates to a person is a person because of other people. So in effect in Africa we care more about people than our jobs. Trouble is when your job is managing national electricity company it isn't a good approach because we tend to put our relationships above our jobs. Result is patchy electricity supply. It is one (just one not the main reason) of the reasons we are behind when it comes to development. Development as in clean running water, functional clinics. I sort of straddle both worlds. In software development you need to get it right. At home people are more important. As an example just today in-laws visiting where supposed to go to see touristy sights at 11 in the morning. They eventually left at 3pm because we all had loads to catch up on. People first :-).
- locacorten 7y ago
  All drawings, paintings, and art I saw in Africa, all of them depict people in a group. There is never a single person depicted in any imagery. You won't find any Mona Lisa in African art. :-)
  - 38932ur98u 7y ago
    This is a fascinating difference. I never really stopped to consider how individualistic a lot of western art is.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  Ha I resonate with this so much. From from the motherland to the US and it's been interesting because I love some of the freedom of self expression the individualism gives me but often times have to be snapped back from the east coast rush-everywhere life I've lived recently and remember that it's okay to hang out till late because the time spent connecting with others meaningfully is hardly ever a waste. Indeed, people, relationships and our connections make us who we are
- grecy 7y ago
  Do you mind sharing from what country you come from and what language that is in please? I just spent three years driving around Africa, and I usually say "People treat people like people" to describe everything that is amazing about the people there. It sounds awkward, but it's the best way I have to describe what you're talking about. I'd love to quote your saying, if you don't mind!
mathgladiator 7y ago
I recently started therapy because I relate to this. I'm a definitely a workaholic and I enjoy coding as an artform. I found myself using work as an escape mechanism for my mother's suicide, and it has taken me 11 years to realize that was a mistake and I should focus less on career and more on being a caring social person. I have a really nice job and I'm thankful for what it has given me, but it is clear that I have to walk away and work on being happy rather than productive.
Nikaoto 7y ago
The Art of Manliness podcast had a great episode about this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/podcast-547-achieving-success-through-the-pursuit-of-fulfillment https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/podcast-547-achievin... Made me think harder about the specific things I enjoy about programming. The book Dark Horse expands on the topic.
jblow 7y ago
Bad article, in part because of the incomplete title. It should be called "What happens when your career becomes your whole identity, when you don't like your job and think it's a waste of time". If this latter part is not true, there is much less of a problem, but for some reason current mainstream American culture wants to extrapolate all the way to "work should be compartmentalized and minimized". The problem is, work is where a lot of people find meaning in life. For those people, more work means more meaning, and you're hurting them by telling them otherwise, especially if they are too young to know better than what you are telling them. And you're also preventing young people from becoming outliers ... what would be the cost to our society, and to the individuals personally, if Einstein, Dirac, Pauli, or whoever had been told to cut down on the amount of time they spend thinking about physics stuff, they need to achieve good work/life balance. A lot of people in China are working pretty hard. If you want your country to get whomped by China economically and geopolitically, spread the idea that it's bad to work hard. Americans in the past, back when America was able to coordinate to do ambitious things, worked pretty hard. So if you want to have a country that is unable to recreate glories of the past, spread the idea that it's bad to work hard. All this only happens if you have an idea of work as a draining thing, a net negative on the individual doing the work. But I am happier because of the work that I have done. I am a better person than I was before. Nobody goes to the kung fu school and says "hey it's bad to exercise this much, you shouldn't kick so high or punch so fast, just make sure not to train that much, okay?" But for some reason we have decided it's okay to give people this advice in other realms. You know what, I never felt as good physically as I did when I was in serious kung fu training. (Never looked as good either). If you are in a job that actually is damaging if you do it too much for too long, then by all means, minimize that -- but you know what, in today's world, there are always proximal things you can do that are not damaging that will improve your job or your ability to do your job over time. But advice like this does not make the distinction between jobs that are damaging and jobs that aren't. We're losing the idea that the latter thing exists, and I think that is very bad for the overall development of our society.
- tom_ 7y ago
  What makes you think that young people will listen to anything you tell them?
hprotagonist 7y ago
That drum major instinct is a real fucker if you don’t see it for what it is and point it in the right direction. https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/drum-major-instinct-sermon-delivered-ebenezer-baptist-church https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/dru...
0kl 7y ago
I disagree that “enmeshment” is always bad. What we do, especially when we are fortunate enough to choose and enjoy our careers, are fundamental to who we are and the narrative that work is solely there to provide income is not always true. We spend the majority of our time, effort, and thought around our work. To say that none of this should touch on our identity would be doing a disservice to the majority of our time spent living. It is true, that some people are not “enmeshed”, but are consumed with work, but what about the people that do find happiness and fulfillment in their “high-powered” job? Dan’s failure to recognize his own needs are not a reflection of “enmeshment” being bad, but a reminder that if you do not pay attention to your own wants and desires you will be unhappy, regardless of how successful you are. That if you do need the job and hate it, to make sure you’re making the right trade-offs to have a happy life - see the recommendations in the article for how.
JDiculous 7y ago
The problem is that we're often expected to make our career our identity. If you don't, then you get passed over for a promotion/hire while the workaholic gets a promotion. This problem is especially acute in the U.S. where one of the first questions people ask each other when they meet is "what do you do"
code4tee 7y ago
Certain high achievers in their career use their career as a cover for general failings in other parts of their life. I’ve seen it a few times and it ends badly when it all finally catches up to them, often too late in life to do much about it. Some people are very happy to have their career be their whole identity, but most don’t think that way and define “success” as success across multiple areas of their life.
bsanr2 7y ago
I feel like many workplaces push you to do this, regardless of the prospects. I've worked dead-end admin positions where I was expected to give inordinate amount of myself - my time, my energy, my focus - to work that was, as per the dead end-edness, not going to lead to positive renumeration vis á vis the investment. There was no awareness of where the job, the business, the industry really was, a predictable but unfortunate result of the decision-makers being either people in one of the few positions or people gunning (with realistic prospects of achieving) one. Just a sort of blind adherence to corporate dogma. Meanwhile, the HN et al. line is, "Those are only transitory jobs, it's okay that they don't pay a living wage or treat you with any dignity, you're supposed to move on from them." Not within the organization, apparently. So we're to betray the people who gave us the opportunity which we're supposed to be so appreciative of? Doesn't that go directly against that corporate dogma we're around every day? The unspoken and contradictory of etiquette of the American workplace is frustrating and demoralizing.
sjg007 7y ago
Everyone who defines themselves by their job should move to LA for a few years. In LA everyone is an actor just working a different job until they make it.
sandoooo 7y ago
>As a psychologist, I specialize in mental health challenges associated with high-pressure careers. People like Dan show up in my office every day — so often, in fact, I had to build a company, Azimuth Psychological, to focus on serving their needs. Native advertising.
sandoooo 7y ago
Here's a common sentiment amongst those with too much time on their hands: "When I am on my deathbed, I don't want to look back on my life with regret." The deathbed part of your life isn't even that long. Probably a week or something. And probably you'll spend much of it being distracted by morphine and excruciating pain, leaving no room for feeling sad about how shit your life was. Maybe you should just tell future-you to suck it up and let you play your xbox in peace.
- thundergolfer 7y ago
  That is a good retort, very much reminds me of Parfit’s explorations of our relationship to our future selves.
- t0astbread 7y ago
  That doesn't sound like a life sentiment you'd regret, even if you weren't on morphine.
- monoideism 7y ago
  > The deathbed part of your life isn't even that long. Probably a week or something. Assuming you’re in a developed country, you’ve either been very lucky or haven’t yet had many friends or family on their death bed. It typically lasts several weeks to several months. If you have a family member who is dying of Alzheimer’s (I have), it can last years. One week would be very fortunate indeed. That said, I do kind of agree with your sentiment. Even if it’s months, your death bed is still typically a relatively small part of your life.
hyperpallium 7y ago
déformation professionnelle https://wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9formation_professionnelle https://wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9formation_professionnelle
quickthrower2 7y ago
This is a framework for thinking about resilience https://www.theresiliencedoughnut.com.au/ https://www.theresiliencedoughnut.com.au/. In a nutshell if you build all your esteem from work, you only get 1/2 of the 7 factors i.e. Skill, Money. But you need at least 3 and ideally more to whether life's shocks. If you lose your job/career you might be left with zero. But if you also invest in say friends and community, losing your job is less of a blow.
adamredwoods 7y ago
For many years my career was my entire identity: I really, really wanted to be a designer. I thought it was the coolest thing EVER. Then my son was born and I couldn't quite make this designer career/life that I wanted. I also realized I wasn't AMAZING at it, but I was GOOD at it. I couldn't quite get over that threshold. So therefore, not being at the top of my game and trying to feed my family became a problem. I gave it up and became a programmer, which I don't attach myself too as much these days. I tell people I'm a parent first, board gamer second, programmer third. Whereas before, I was a designer-everything. Life is always changing-- change with it.
tekproxy 7y ago
Fitter, happier More productive Comfortable Not drinking too much Regular exercise at the gym, three days a week Getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries At ease Eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats A patient, better driver A safer car, baby smiling in back seat Sleeping well, no bad dreams No paranoia Careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole Keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then Will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall Favours for favours, fond but not in love Charity standing orders on sundays, ring-road supermarket No killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants Car wash, also on sundays No longer afraid of the dark or midday shadows, nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate Nothing so childish At a better pace, slower and more calculated No chance of escape Now self-employed Concerned, but powerless An empowered and informed member of societ, pragmatism not idealism Will not cry in public Less chance of illness Tires that grip in the wet, shot of baby strapped in backseat A good memory Still cries at a good film Still kisses with saliva No longer empty and frantic Like a cat Tied to a stick That's driven into Frozen winter shit, the ability to laugh at weakness Calm, fitter, healthier and more productive A pig in a cage on antibiotics
mirimir 7y ago
I've had four careers, and each one became pretty much my whole identity. For some years, anyway. But eventually, I found myself becoming interested in something else. And eventually, that something else became a career. After a period of chaos, anyway. And now my privacy/anonymity hobby has basically become a career. Except that I mostly don't get paid. Which isn't an issue.
deleted 7y ago
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aSplash0fDerp 7y ago
The 21st century should provide a new model for "lifestyle" and career choices as longevity hits its stride and more studies are published. Between self, relationships, health, career and hobbies, you can only reasonably pick 2 or 3 for prime year successes (except for a lucky/talented/free-rided few) and causes many to spread themselves too thin keeping up with tradition to enjoy success on any them by their golden years. Its hard to tell if its caveman logic or the females biological clock that dictates rushing into everything at an early age, but career burnout, high divorce rates and health/mental issues at an early age sacrifice too much for the meager returns. We'll have to compare notes at a later time, but digital natives may hit critical mass this decade (or next) and kick much of the analog work ethics, career timelines and family syncronization theories to the curb in favor of delayed milestones (career and otherwise) as we inch closer to 100 year life-spans with proper planning.
Lynolix 7y ago
It's better than your whole identity and existence constituting clinical depression, video games and no career—let alone work history.
- octokatt 7y ago
  Different outcome, but similar cause. The high-pressure system of achievement is a cause for both high-profile burnout and hikikomori [0] [1]. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/young-people-japan-hikikomori-anxiety-a7329396.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/young-people-j... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
AmeliaR 7y ago
life is not all about a career. Life is about a lot of things, but it is mostly about the people in it. The people that you begin with, and the people that you meet along the way. The people that are there when things go bad, and the people that are there to rejoice in your success. It's these people that make life worth living.
- AmeliaR 7y ago
  https://jfi.uno/jiofilocalhtml https://jfi.uno/jiofilocalhtml https://adminlogin.co/tplinklogin/ https://adminlogin.co/tplinklogin/ https://isitdown.top/ https://isitdown.top/

544 points by r0n0j0y 7y ago

Think only problematic insomuch as your career doesn't equal your higher calling, i.e. your career is status driven or following the herd.

egypturnash 7y ago
My career is not a high paying one, or one that involves chasing trends. It is a thing I love doing and would be doing on the side if I had another career; I’ve done that in the past. It is still most of my life by default and this does feel like a problem. It is a differently shaped problem than “infinite overtime and trying to constantly present as Rich Enough” but it is a problem. (I am an artist who mostly draws independent long-form narrative comics.)
coldtea 7y ago
The problem is most careers don't really qualify as "higher callings". Originally "higher calling" meant a much more important (e.g. scientific, humanitarian, patriotic, artistic, priesthood, etc.) not some person working up a management career in some BS enterprise selling BS through marketing... So while a doctor might have his "higher calling" as career, I doubt that can be the case for the millions of corporate drones...
- cloverich 7y ago
  You might be surprised to find that many doctors fall into the very description in this article. Higher calling is a social construct and the reality is being a physician is a _lot_ of hours, a lot of BS, and a lot of patients who need self help more than your help. Its in most ways just like any other job, if you don't find some satisfaction in the actual work, you are going to be miserable. Many are.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >the reality is being a physician is a _lot_ of hours, a lot of BS, and a lot of patients who need self help more than your help Sure. In the end though, you help people and occasionally save lives, you don't market and sell sugared soda water, nor are you a middleman in the paper market, or someone that devises new schemes to part people from their money via convincing ads, or tap away at some Dilbert style cube job. So it's more appropriate to be a higher calling (and has historically been seen as such by many doctors) than some cube job. Higher calling jobs still have drudgery and boring parts (plus useless bureaucracy to fight).

dominotw 7y ago

work as identity burnout as lifestyle - erza klien had a good podcast about this llast year.

2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago

My mother was very much like this. When she retired, she found it quite hard to re-adjust. Fortunately she has a few hobbies to fall back on. Personally, I find it quite a hard balance to get right. On the one hand, tying your identity whole-heartedly to your profession seems dangerous. On the other, being entirely apathetic about it seems like a waste of a life (that is, one spent mostly at work). I try to hang somewhere in the middle, but it's something I try to stay on top of.

ryanianian 7y ago
Love your job and you'll never work a day in your life. Live your job and you won't have any love left to give.
- 2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
  Very succinctly put!
- galimaufry 7y ago
  The problem I have with this is that love is a complicated thing. I love playing soccer, but without the social validation of my friends who also play it I would absolutely never practice. Similarly for most careers, even highly lovable ones.
  - abledon 7y ago
    same for jamming blues/jazz. social communication without using words. amazing social cohesion.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17523149 I like that outlook >> “Find something you love to do and you’ll never have to work a day in your life” is another college-counseling standby of unknown provenance. > That is probably the biggest load of crap foisted on pop culture in a while. I love what I do, and I work every day. This morning's task is reviewing a help file for accuracy. Hol-ee shite, that's not why I got into programming computers when I was 12. But it needs to be done, and I'm one of the ones that can knowledgeably review it. I really should write that test plan, but I keep putting it off for obvious reasons. Oh, sure, I get to play Puzzle Solver by shuffling some bits around, and it's what I spend most of my days doing, but it ain't all fun and games. > And that's just Working for The Man(tm). Gonna start a brewpub? Maybe an online SaaS business? Oh, my friend, your crap work has just begun; so much so, you might have to leave the fun stuff to your employees. You will work every day, and hard. > Don't get the wrong idea, I look forward to going to work most days, and I've been doing this for a long while. But there's a reason they call it "work", and there's a reason they pay you. Enjoy the hell out of the enjoyable parts, and when the less enjoyable work comes, remember that you are (if of the average HN demographic) paid handsomely for it.

minblaster 7y ago

“ The test of whether people love what they do is whether they'd do it even if they weren't paid for it—even if they had to work at another job to make a living. How many corporate lawyers would do their current work if they had to do it for free, in their spare time, and take day jobs as waiters to support themselves?” http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html If you aren’t honest with yourself about why you got into a profession it may wear against your psyche and burn you out. The lawyer knew chasing status would require a sacrifice of happiness, time, and relationships but didn’t want to admit it.

johnchristopher 7y ago
I think there's a bias against (corporate) lawyers here. The ones I know would definitely do something very close to their day job. Also, it makes it seem like there's an endless supply of waiter jobs lined up for the the taking. But this has been debated at length on HN https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/find-your-passion-is-terrible-advice/564932/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/find-you... and https://www.theminimalists.com/cal/ https://www.theminimalists.com/cal/

nugget 7y ago

In my experience extreme workaholism can often be a way to avoid or defer major life decisions that someone doesn't want to make or even consciously recognize. High status careers are often structured, full of positive feedback loops, and well compensated, all of which can strengthen the urge to defer existential questions about meaning, purpose, community, and identity until some unspecified future date, even (perhaps especially) in highly rational or analytical thinkers. Eventually the debt comes due but sometimes not until many decades later.

Winterflow3r 7y ago
Boy, did I learn this the hard way.
- marnett 7y ago
  How so?
  - samstave 7y ago
    For me, as I got older, lost passion for what I had been doing for 20 years - and being on the old end of the ageism-specrum-stick... it is hard to deal with. I have left 'Silicon Valley Tech' -- as I am no longer interested in any of the things I did before and seek positions which are more fulfilling in other industries and pay about 25% of what I used to make...
    - momokoko 7y ago
      I am in exactly the same boat. Could not have said it better myself.
      - turk73 7y ago
        Me too, but I need help. I have been working on ideas for my "2nd career," well, really it will be my 3rd, but that's beside the point. I need a way out of tech. I have enough money already, I just need a freaking path to another kind of work. It's not been easy. It's either I do what I am doing or it's $15/hr Target cashier type of job. Not bashing the Target cashiers, just making a point.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

quotemstr 7y ago

This anti-work ethic you see crop up once in a while is delusion. Success comes from perseverance, not idleness or detachment. A few days ago, there was an article from some CEO claiming that you don't need to work hard to succeed. Today, we have an article from HBR cautioning about becoming too invested in one's work. This sentiment is dangerous. It's harmful to teach young people to be cynical, indifferent, and lazy, because the vast majority of progress really is made by the passionate and dedicated genius, not the detached crank-turner that HBR writers want impressionable young people to become. Have a few people succeed without trying? Sure. They were stupid and lucky. Are you one of these people? Almost certainly not. Look at the history of science and innovation: the truth that emerges is that breakthroughs come not from relaxation, but from a combination of passion and hard work.

tuckerconnelly 7y ago
It may be an effect of the economic bubble we're in. It's an ethos that doesn't survive a crash :)
- quotemstr 7y ago
  Yes. Kipling's gods of the copybook headings return in a rush when a stock market bubble pops. I wonder to what extent you can predict a crash by sensing when the mood of a society has disconnected effort from reward.
- asveikau 7y ago
  Or maybe people are working harder each year for decreasing post-inflation-adjusted wages and decreasing benefits, wages are not keeping up with costs in many industries and places, they are stressed out and asking why they put themselves through this. Or perhaps, a scenario that will be familiar to many in tech and I know I have personally witnessed, that some corporate cultures are so completely full of narcissism, and they sweep people up until they think this sort of beast is normal, having a toll on mental health.
jsmonkey 7y ago
Working hard is good, but working so hard that you completely neglect rest of your life isn't. For most people's well being things like family and hobbies are at least as important as work, and there's nothing wrong with that. If our economic system doesn't allow them to enjoy those parts of their lives, then the fault lies on the system, not on individuals.

forrestthewoods 7y ago

I love my job. My work is interesting. My peers are delightful. I’ve had great jobs and a great career. My job is not my whole identity. It is 0% of my identity. It’s just a job. If I had FU money I’d peace out tomorrow and work on hobby projects in my spare time. These days I feel like I’m the oddball. I don’t associate my job or hobby with my identity. I couldn’t tell you my “identity” if I tried. I’m a soup of likes, dislikes, hopes, fears, and more. I don’t really understand why people try to put their identity in a tight box with a neat label.

dorchadas 7y ago
Completely agree with this. It's one reason why I like being a teacher (and one reason why it'd be hard to leave, even if it's for a job that has a much higher chance of allowing me to make FU money). I have several months off (well, not off as I do have to do stuff, but I can work from home mostly), of the course of the year, to pursue hobbies and basically anything I want to, even if it's just being super lazy. I really enjoy that, and it makes for a much better work-life balance.

viburnum 7y ago

If you’re the kind of person is always troubled by something (most people are), directing that unsettled nagging feeling into your work is the best thing you can do.

jariel 7y ago

Furthermore I fundamentally believe that individuals in this state have their social and political opinions shaped by their enmeshed, single professional identity. I believe professionals such as this are far more likely to only have opions which avoid controversy or are on the side of a social current consistent with those in their industry or customers at large. Their personal choices become indistinguishable from that of a well thought out PR team. In particular I suggest this phenom is right at the root of a lot of localist vs globalist antagonism. Most professionals would probably err on the side of economic liberalism in the more general sense because it makes sense for their enmeshed professional identity. But the personal identity which is obfuscated may have much more connection with the community,uch more likely to know and empathize with those affected. Or maybe even just at odds with the professional identity for whatever reason. When I left my very corporate job it took me months to realise how free I was to have basically any opinion that I wanted and didn't realize how much I must have been orienting my thoughts into a direction that would be acceptable to my peers. (or what I thought would be acceptable). I'm very supportive of the fact there is research on this.

hackworks 7y ago

Analogous to “putting all eggs in a single basket”, the risks are very high. You end up becoming hyper sensitive at work, start taking everything personal -well, it is your identity or ego at stake. Leads be becoming very closed, guarded and aggressive. Everyday becomes a fight for survival. I personally went through this phase for a long time. Looking back, some of my managers exploited this by reinforcing. They knew if they compare me with anyone, I would up the competition and perform even better. This did not cost them money since I had invested myself, my identity and ego 100%. Overall, resulted in a highly competitive team but extremely stressful and caustic! After changing teams, I decided to take a step back and make a fresh start. I now work for the love of my work and do not let it represent who/what I am. It is my identity at work. Back home or with friends, I have a different identity. Having multiple things to fallback has made me more resilient and lot more positive.

randycupertino 7y ago
Same thing happened to me. I realized that I actually do better work now that I'm more chilled out and my life is more balanced.
mmsimanga 7y ago
I wonder if it is an age thing. Paraphrasing but there is a quote along the lines of the difference between experienced people/managers and inexperienced people is they know which battles to fight. Sadly this is a right of passage, you need to fight the wrong battles first before you realise this. I am in my forties now and so much better at selecting which battles to fight.
- tartoran 7y ago
  You’re absolutely right. Around this age if not a bit earlier people have seen/experienced enough to see things more clearly. I wonder if this is the reason most SV companies prefer fresher meat.
- amelius 7y ago
  Might also be why companies prefer youngsters over people who are 40+. The opportunity for exploitation is higher.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

My pursuit of financial independence consequently led to my career becoming my identity. I've optimized for raising my income and savings to reduce "time to FI", that by the time I get there -- about 4 years, give or take -- that I've become the thing I explicitly set out to remove from my life. It's not that I don't like working, but I wish to do so on my own terms. Maybe that means short-term contracts a few months out of the year, and having that reduced income cover my living expenses, supplemented with investments. I've done the numbers many times, but I've spent little time considering what I'll do with all that extra time.

echelon 7y ago
Just curious - what's your financially independent number? Are you factoring in cost of living into your ideal scenario, or is there wiggle room for leisure and travel and the like?
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  $1M, or $40k annually. My rent is about half of my expenses, but I could downsize to a cheaper place and allocate the freed money for travel and leisure. I don't think I'll stop working once I reach $1M. I'd be more open to alternative work arrangements (e.g., temp contracting gigs) closer to $1.5M, to build in wiggle room. Some costs I haven't accounted for (currently subsidized by my employer), like health care, make me feel the "real" FI number is closer $2M as expenses will likely rise with age.
  - yibg 7y ago
    I’ve had the same goal in mind, to get to a point where I can be more flexible with work arrangements. Maybe work part time or work from any location. I’m struggling with doing that though. I’ve already accumulated enough for me to do this, but my income is at its highest currently, and mentally it’s been a struggle to give that up. For the last couple of years it’s been, well let’s just save a bit more to be safe.
  - shaklee3 7y ago

Causality1 7y ago

I wonder what the money equivalent is of the term "first world problems". Millions of Americans spend sixty hours a week at work and still worry about whether they need to give up their health insurance this year so they can afford to replace their fifteen year old car because they'll lose their job if it breaks down and makes them late again.

rabidrat 7y ago
I read this as "we should be content with being well-paid wage slaves because there are lots of underpaid wage slaves". Having to give our best 40+ hours every week to simply exist is soul-crushing and society-weakening. If you "need" to have a job, you are more like those struggling millions of Americans than you are like the moneyed elite, even if you aren't stressed about money on a day-to-day basis. You still aren't free.
- war1025 7y ago
  People by and large don't want to be free. Society is the choice to trade freedom for safety and predictability.
- Causality1 7y ago
  Happiness scales with income until about the $200,000 mark where it levels off. If you're making six digits you have more in common with Jeff Bezos than you do with someone making minimum wage.
  - Hydraulix989 7y ago
    I don't think that's true in the Bay Area or New York. Having a house instead of renting in either area, for example, has an appreciable boost in happiness.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

What happens? Your marriage suffers (if you have one). Your children suffer (if you have any). And you suffer. And it's not just work. If your side project becomes your whole identity, the same is true.

zomglings 7y ago

This is a thinly veiled advertisement for the author's psychological services - the company they had to start to solve this problem. It is hard to get anywhere in this world without working your ass off. It is a sign of extreme privilege to even have the freedom to complain about it.

thinkingkong 7y ago
It is probably a placed piece but it doesnt make the contents untrue. Simultaneously, being enmeshed in your career is not the same as working hard, so why give people a hard time who are reevaluating their life?
- zomglings 7y ago
  Reasonable question. I can see how my comment comes across as me giving people a hard time but that was not the intention. Working hard is probably step 1 on the road to enmeshment. Just wanted to put forward the opinion that most things worth doing require insane levels of hard work to succeed at. They will become part of your identity. That's not a bad thing.
OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago
Well put. The specific case was not compelling and I wonder whether it is even real. A son of highly achieving attorneys learns that corporate law is stressful? Do tell. I was reminded of Tom Lehrer's quip about the fictional inventor of the gallbladder, "He soon became a specialist, specializing in diseases of the rich. He was therefore able to retire at an early age."[1] [1]http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/evening.html http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/evening.html
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  A specialist in diseases for the rich might have to come out of retirement to treat himself.
  - 7y ago

k__ 7y ago

I always feel a bit sad when I see people who are younger than me and much more successful with their career. But on the other hand I don't work much (<20h/week) so it's probably okay.

noonespecial 7y ago
People tell me that I didn't "live up to my full potential". I say, "I know. That would have been exhausting."
- k__ 7y ago
  Good point. It's a bit sad about the missed opportunities, but my privat life is awesome, so it's okay.

overgard 7y ago

I was just rereading this Last Psychiatrist article that this really reminds me of: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/01/randi_zuckerberg.html https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/01/randi_zuckerberg.htm... (Like with all of TLP it meanders a lot and will probably piss you off. It's also highly entertaining!) This is the important bit: > One of our time's great sociological questions is why we filled downtime back up with work, and the reason is it's better than alcoholism. At some point during the Truman Administration home life became more stressful than work life, where stressful is defined either as hysterical drama or rheumatismy boredom, and by Reagan II the home was no longer a respite from modern society's incessant demands to produce or at the very least a place to get a nap. ... > Part of the reason work and home keep mixing despite our professed desires is that that's how Americans were taught to see an aspirational adult life. In every TV show and movie after Leave It To Beaver the gimmick has always been that the protagonist's job and personal life overlap-- doctors in love, CIA agents defending their family, late nights at the office trading zingers or abuse stories. While we no longer think we want the overlap, the shows reinforced the false psychology that a person is something, all the time and everywhere, and the backdrop world "sees" it, accepts it. This applies just as much to negative depictions of work/life overlap, e.g. the obsessed cop whose wife is now divorcing him because of the job: the point isn't that the overlap is "good", that's not the aspiration; the point is that the structure of these depictions represents the fundamental narcissistic fantasy: a fixed and clear identity-- a character-- seen by a potential audience. This is why home is not relaxing: we are working to not let it be all that we are. [emphasis mine]

marmaduke 7y ago
That was a great read. I think structures mentioned therein like the medium is the message, the form of the argument vs consequences are excellent examples of cognitive or linguistic framing, ripe for hacking

chriselles 7y ago

I’ve often seen it with military personnel who fail in their transition from their military to post-military lives. Some people invest so much of themselves into just a singular self-identity they are permanently anchored to it unless/until a forcing function compels an existential change. I believe competing interests for time such as passions/hobbies and side hustles provide bridges from one employment career to another. However, the mirror to workaholism is having too many passions/hobbies and side hustles outside of work leading to distraction and dilution. Broad, deep, and substantial focus on singular topics/areas is important, for a time. People want their lives to have meaning, often measured thru impactful and measurable work. But not at the expense of losing one’s option to seek balance and joy.

reddog 7y ago

You can love your job but it will never love you back.

makecheck 7y ago

I’ve seen a few “20 year” or “30 year” managers. I can’t help but wonder how their methods might have varied if they had been exposed to even one other organization’s way of doing things. Also, do they subconsciously value “company-loyal” employees over others with equivalent or superior experience? Generally I feel that varied experiences matter more, even if you get unlucky and spend a handful of years in a less-stellar team.

mrtron 7y ago

I know many farmers.

Animats 7y ago

It beats changing diapers.

mmsimanga 7y ago

We have a saying back home that goes, "umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu" which literally translates to a person is a person because of other people. So in effect in Africa we care more about people than our jobs. Trouble is when your job is managing national electricity company it isn't a good approach because we tend to put our relationships above our jobs. Result is patchy electricity supply. It is one (just one not the main reason) of the reasons we are behind when it comes to development. Development as in clean running water, functional clinics. I sort of straddle both worlds. In software development you need to get it right. At home people are more important. As an example just today in-laws visiting where supposed to go to see touristy sights at 11 in the morning. They eventually left at 3pm because we all had loads to catch up on. People first :-).

locacorten 7y ago
All drawings, paintings, and art I saw in Africa, all of them depict people in a group. There is never a single person depicted in any imagery. You won't find any Mona Lisa in African art. :-)
- 38932ur98u 7y ago
  This is a fascinating difference. I never really stopped to consider how individualistic a lot of western art is.
Infinitesimus 7y ago
Ha I resonate with this so much. From from the motherland to the US and it's been interesting because I love some of the freedom of self expression the individualism gives me but often times have to be snapped back from the east coast rush-everywhere life I've lived recently and remember that it's okay to hang out till late because the time spent connecting with others meaningfully is hardly ever a waste. Indeed, people, relationships and our connections make us who we are
grecy 7y ago
Do you mind sharing from what country you come from and what language that is in please? I just spent three years driving around Africa, and I usually say "People treat people like people" to describe everything that is amazing about the people there. It sounds awkward, but it's the best way I have to describe what you're talking about. I'd love to quote your saying, if you don't mind!

mathgladiator 7y ago

I recently started therapy because I relate to this. I'm a definitely a workaholic and I enjoy coding as an artform. I found myself using work as an escape mechanism for my mother's suicide, and it has taken me 11 years to realize that was a mistake and I should focus less on career and more on being a caring social person. I have a really nice job and I'm thankful for what it has given me, but it is clear that I have to walk away and work on being happy rather than productive.

Nikaoto 7y ago

The Art of Manliness podcast had a great episode about this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/podcast-547-achieving-success-through-the-pursuit-of-fulfillment https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/podcast-547-achievin... Made me think harder about the specific things I enjoy about programming. The book Dark Horse expands on the topic.

jblow 7y ago

Bad article, in part because of the incomplete title. It should be called "What happens when your career becomes your whole identity, when you don't like your job and think it's a waste of time". If this latter part is not true, there is much less of a problem, but for some reason current mainstream American culture wants to extrapolate all the way to "work should be compartmentalized and minimized". The problem is, work is where a lot of people find meaning in life. For those people, more work means more meaning, and you're hurting them by telling them otherwise, especially if they are too young to know better than what you are telling them. And you're also preventing young people from becoming outliers ... what would be the cost to our society, and to the individuals personally, if Einstein, Dirac, Pauli, or whoever had been told to cut down on the amount of time they spend thinking about physics stuff, they need to achieve good work/life balance. A lot of people in China are working pretty hard. If you want your country to get whomped by China economically and geopolitically, spread the idea that it's bad to work hard. Americans in the past, back when America was able to coordinate to do ambitious things, worked pretty hard. So if you want to have a country that is unable to recreate glories of the past, spread the idea that it's bad to work hard. All this only happens if you have an idea of work as a draining thing, a net negative on the individual doing the work. But I am happier because of the work that I have done. I am a better person than I was before. Nobody goes to the kung fu school and says "hey it's bad to exercise this much, you shouldn't kick so high or punch so fast, just make sure not to train that much, okay?" But for some reason we have decided it's okay to give people this advice in other realms. You know what, I never felt as good physically as I did when I was in serious kung fu training. (Never looked as good either). If you are in a job that actually is damaging if you do it too much for too long, then by all means, minimize that -- but you know what, in today's world, there are always proximal things you can do that are not damaging that will improve your job or your ability to do your job over time. But advice like this does not make the distinction between jobs that are damaging and jobs that aren't. We're losing the idea that the latter thing exists, and I think that is very bad for the overall development of our society.

tom_ 7y ago
What makes you think that young people will listen to anything you tell them?

hprotagonist 7y ago

That drum major instinct is a real fucker if you don’t see it for what it is and point it in the right direction. https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/drum-major-instinct-sermon-delivered-ebenezer-baptist-church https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/dru...

0kl 7y ago

I disagree that “enmeshment” is always bad. What we do, especially when we are fortunate enough to choose and enjoy our careers, are fundamental to who we are and the narrative that work is solely there to provide income is not always true. We spend the majority of our time, effort, and thought around our work. To say that none of this should touch on our identity would be doing a disservice to the majority of our time spent living. It is true, that some people are not “enmeshed”, but are consumed with work, but what about the people that do find happiness and fulfillment in their “high-powered” job? Dan’s failure to recognize his own needs are not a reflection of “enmeshment” being bad, but a reminder that if you do not pay attention to your own wants and desires you will be unhappy, regardless of how successful you are. That if you do need the job and hate it, to make sure you’re making the right trade-offs to have a happy life - see the recommendations in the article for how.

JDiculous 7y ago

The problem is that we're often expected to make our career our identity. If you don't, then you get passed over for a promotion/hire while the workaholic gets a promotion. This problem is especially acute in the U.S. where one of the first questions people ask each other when they meet is "what do you do"

code4tee 7y ago

Certain high achievers in their career use their career as a cover for general failings in other parts of their life. I’ve seen it a few times and it ends badly when it all finally catches up to them, often too late in life to do much about it. Some people are very happy to have their career be their whole identity, but most don’t think that way and define “success” as success across multiple areas of their life.

bsanr2 7y ago

I feel like many workplaces push you to do this, regardless of the prospects. I've worked dead-end admin positions where I was expected to give inordinate amount of myself - my time, my energy, my focus - to work that was, as per the dead end-edness, not going to lead to positive renumeration vis á vis the investment. There was no awareness of where the job, the business, the industry really was, a predictable but unfortunate result of the decision-makers being either people in one of the few positions or people gunning (with realistic prospects of achieving) one. Just a sort of blind adherence to corporate dogma. Meanwhile, the HN et al. line is, "Those are only transitory jobs, it's okay that they don't pay a living wage or treat you with any dignity, you're supposed to move on from them." Not within the organization, apparently. So we're to betray the people who gave us the opportunity which we're supposed to be so appreciative of? Doesn't that go directly against that corporate dogma we're around every day? The unspoken and contradictory of etiquette of the American workplace is frustrating and demoralizing.

sjg007 7y ago

Everyone who defines themselves by their job should move to LA for a few years. In LA everyone is an actor just working a different job until they make it.

sandoooo 7y ago

>As a psychologist, I specialize in mental health challenges associated with high-pressure careers. People like Dan show up in my office every day — so often, in fact, I had to build a company, Azimuth Psychological, to focus on serving their needs. Native advertising.

sandoooo 7y ago

Here's a common sentiment amongst those with too much time on their hands: "When I am on my deathbed, I don't want to look back on my life with regret." The deathbed part of your life isn't even that long. Probably a week or something. And probably you'll spend much of it being distracted by morphine and excruciating pain, leaving no room for feeling sad about how shit your life was. Maybe you should just tell future-you to suck it up and let you play your xbox in peace.

thundergolfer 7y ago
That is a good retort, very much reminds me of Parfit’s explorations of our relationship to our future selves.
t0astbread 7y ago
That doesn't sound like a life sentiment you'd regret, even if you weren't on morphine.
monoideism 7y ago
> The deathbed part of your life isn't even that long. Probably a week or something. Assuming you’re in a developed country, you’ve either been very lucky or haven’t yet had many friends or family on their death bed. It typically lasts several weeks to several months. If you have a family member who is dying of Alzheimer’s (I have), it can last years. One week would be very fortunate indeed. That said, I do kind of agree with your sentiment. Even if it’s months, your death bed is still typically a relatively small part of your life.

hyperpallium 7y ago

déformation professionnelle https://wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9formation_professionnelle https://wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9formation_professionnelle

quickthrower2 7y ago

This is a framework for thinking about resilience https://www.theresiliencedoughnut.com.au/ https://www.theresiliencedoughnut.com.au/. In a nutshell if you build all your esteem from work, you only get 1/2 of the 7 factors i.e. Skill, Money. But you need at least 3 and ideally more to whether life's shocks. If you lose your job/career you might be left with zero. But if you also invest in say friends and community, losing your job is less of a blow.

adamredwoods 7y ago

For many years my career was my entire identity: I really, really wanted to be a designer. I thought it was the coolest thing EVER. Then my son was born and I couldn't quite make this designer career/life that I wanted. I also realized I wasn't AMAZING at it, but I was GOOD at it. I couldn't quite get over that threshold. So therefore, not being at the top of my game and trying to feed my family became a problem. I gave it up and became a programmer, which I don't attach myself too as much these days. I tell people I'm a parent first, board gamer second, programmer third. Whereas before, I was a designer-everything. Life is always changing-- change with it.

tekproxy 7y ago

Fitter, happier More productive Comfortable Not drinking too much Regular exercise at the gym, three days a week Getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries At ease Eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats A patient, better driver A safer car, baby smiling in back seat Sleeping well, no bad dreams No paranoia Careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole Keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then Will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall Favours for favours, fond but not in love Charity standing orders on sundays, ring-road supermarket No killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants Car wash, also on sundays No longer afraid of the dark or midday shadows, nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate Nothing so childish At a better pace, slower and more calculated No chance of escape Now self-employed Concerned, but powerless An empowered and informed member of societ, pragmatism not idealism Will not cry in public Less chance of illness Tires that grip in the wet, shot of baby strapped in backseat A good memory Still cries at a good film Still kisses with saliva No longer empty and frantic Like a cat Tied to a stick That's driven into Frozen winter shit, the ability to laugh at weakness Calm, fitter, healthier and more productive A pig in a cage on antibiotics

mirimir 7y ago

I've had four careers, and each one became pretty much my whole identity. For some years, anyway. But eventually, I found myself becoming interested in something else. And eventually, that something else became a career. After a period of chaos, anyway. And now my privacy/anonymity hobby has basically become a career. Except that I mostly don't get paid. Which isn't an issue.

deleted 7y ago

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aSplash0fDerp 7y ago

The 21st century should provide a new model for "lifestyle" and career choices as longevity hits its stride and more studies are published. Between self, relationships, health, career and hobbies, you can only reasonably pick 2 or 3 for prime year successes (except for a lucky/talented/free-rided few) and causes many to spread themselves too thin keeping up with tradition to enjoy success on any them by their golden years. Its hard to tell if its caveman logic or the females biological clock that dictates rushing into everything at an early age, but career burnout, high divorce rates and health/mental issues at an early age sacrifice too much for the meager returns. We'll have to compare notes at a later time, but digital natives may hit critical mass this decade (or next) and kick much of the analog work ethics, career timelines and family syncronization theories to the curb in favor of delayed milestones (career and otherwise) as we inch closer to 100 year life-spans with proper planning.

Lynolix 7y ago

It's better than your whole identity and existence constituting clinical depression, video games and no career—let alone work history.

octokatt 7y ago
Different outcome, but similar cause. The high-pressure system of achievement is a cause for both high-profile burnout and hikikomori [0] [1]. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/young-people-japan-hikikomori-anxiety-a7329396.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/young-people-j... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

AmeliaR 7y ago

life is not all about a career. Life is about a lot of things, but it is mostly about the people in it. The people that you begin with, and the people that you meet along the way. The people that are there when things go bad, and the people that are there to rejoice in your success. It's these people that make life worth living.

AmeliaR 7y ago
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