52 ms·

Thank You, Guido

1269 points by pauloxnet 7y ago

notkaiho 7y ago
"“When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code,” he said. “If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. So I led by example, and also by talking to other people.”" This is very sage advice.
- tyingq 7y ago
  Interesting in the context of Dropbox, as they ship the client code as obfuscated and encrypted pyc files and a custom runtime that's pretty "clever": https://anvilventures.com/blog/looking-inside-the-box.html https://anvilventures.com/blog/looking-inside-the-box.html Edit. Yes I get the difference and the reasons they do this. The wordplay crossover (cryptic, clever, etc) was notable to me, and reminded me of the link I posted above.
  - caseysoftware 7y ago
    We're not the intended audience for the code. We're just the consumers.
  - _coveredInBees 7y ago
    That has zero bearing on the point Guido was making. He is talking about development practices. The client code is not being sent to users for them to develop code and contribute to the Dropbox codebase.
  - jamestenglish 7y ago
    Just because the outcome of the code (i.e. obfuscated code) is "clever" doesn't mean that the code that does the obfuscation is clever
- skellera 7y ago
  You’d think it would be common sense when writing something that other people will read. We don’t see people writing books in acronyms or omitting words. How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are?
  - quaquaqua1 7y ago
    It's terrible. People use deliberate crypticness to flex on everyone who hasn't seen x subniche of programming style before. They designed it to be like this to be the gatekeeper at their organization.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are? Writing clever code doesn't mean it's being done for that reason. As the article notes, Guido himself agreed that in the early stages of developing a piece of software, such as in an early stage startup, it probably makes sense to write clever code, because you can get it done faster and therefore iterate faster on improving the code to meet user needs. At this stage very few people are working on the code (often just one), so communicating with other developers is not a big issue. The need for making it maintainable comes later, when the product is mature and many more people are working on the code, so the need for clear communication becomes much stronger.
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    You say that, but then there's more advanced writings like scientific papers which will freely use domain-specific terms and / or maths; I'm not saying that's bad, it's just that because I'm not at home with these terms and / or subjects I won't invest the time in trying to decipher it. Also because unlike with code, I don't actually have to of course.
  - chipgap98 7y ago
    That metaphor doesn't hold up. Literature is full of allegories, figures of speech, allusion, and other forms of imagery. I agree that code should be as straightforward as possible, but I don't think books follow that rule.
  - 7y ago
- vkat 7y ago
  I think this is what experience teaches. Sometimes I have the itch to write clever code but then more often than not it ends up being cryptic to other developers. If you really have to write clever code, wrap it up in a well defined interface and write a bunch of tests.
  - rstupek 7y ago
    I've found it also becomes cryptic to your future self who will have to figure out how to maintain it going forward
- streetcat1 7y ago
  probably would help if he added static typing from the get go.
- Alex3917 7y ago
  > This is very sage advice. I mean in real life (when you don't have Guido to do it for you), if people are writing code you can't understand then you need to tell them to fix it. And many people don't like being told they need to rewrite their code because you can't understand it, so it leads to conflict and eventually you often need to fire people. So yes, it's good advice, but by cleaning up engineering debt you're often going to take on a lot of team debt.
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    There's a delicate balance that often lies in hiring process. There are people who simply refuse to understand generics and/or stream APIs. Which are to (most) programmers more readable then the same logic being drawn out in a loop. Meanwhile some other programmer would just write code golf and brag about it. At the end of the day, it should be about enforcing a coding style that defines what you can or can't do. Adding final to all variable that can be final for instance is a great start.
  - trilinearnz 7y ago
    We have reached a middle ground in our organisation (not a tech company, so there is less code and a slower pace). We don't require rewrites, but simply recommend that next time the code be written in a more lenient style. The education aspect is a good lens through which to view the issue also, sometimes resistance to an unfamiliar style is due to a fixed mindset around a known set of language functionality. It could be an opportunity to learn something new which is genuinely useful.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- doc_gunthrop 7y ago
  That coincides with the following: > Code is read many more times than it is written. Writing code costs something, but over time the cost of reading is often higher. Anyone who ever looks at a piece of code has to invest brain-power into figuring out what it does.[1] This is also noted in PEP8: > One of Guido's key insights is that code is read much more often than it is written. The guidelines provided here are intended to improve the readability of code and make it consistent across the wide spectrum of Python code. As PEP 20 says, "Readability counts".[2] [1]: https://www.sandimetz.com/blog/2017/6/1/the-half-life-of-code https://www.sandimetz.com/blog/2017/6/1/the-half-life-of-cod... [2]: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#a-foolish-consistency-is-the-hobgoblin-of-little-minds https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#a-foolish-consiste...
  - RaiseProfits 7y ago
    Who would have thought the best argument against an 80 character cap in pep8 would come from guido himself?
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Anyone who charitably reads what he writes.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    I’m finding that one of the biggest time sinks is code that looks like it’s doing something other than what it’s actually doing. Code smells draw the eye when debugging. Your brain wants the problem to be in the code that’s clearly “wrong”. So smelly code anywhere near common code paths has a huge cost compared to smelly code in some leaf function in an obscure feature. One of the wisdoms of XP, I think. The code you touch the most should be the sanest.
  - jodrellblank 7y ago
    > Code is read many more times than it is written I'm really curious how true this is. Partly because, if it really was read more than it is written, people would optimize to /write less/ of it - if you have to pick up everything you put on the floor ten times over, it will incentivize you to put fewer things on the floor in future. And people would say things about code which people say about writing, such as "you have to write for your audience", instead of the more common "it's either boolean readable or unreadable". And partly because I suspect code is /skimmed over/ more than it is read; that is, people assume what it does, glance at its shape, then if there's no surprise triggered, move on. I would be interested to know if anyone has studied what it means for code to be read, but my suspicions are that most code which works is almost never read, and most code which is read, is read because it doesn't work and therefore it will be self-selected to be poor code in some regard. But then, I'm not a programmer working on a large codebase. Those of you who are, how much of it have you read in enough detail that you verified how it works - and no assuming that a method does what its name implies, or assuming that if it passes tests it must work, but actually verifying by studying it that it does what it should and that you understand it?
- huhtenberg 7y ago
  The third option, of course, is to just comment your clever code to make it less cryptic. Yes, you can have your pie and eat it :)
  - nomel 7y ago
    Unless there’s a real and needed benefit, why complicate it? I’ve seen clever code that was 300% faster, half the lines, completely unreadable, and called once per session, for a total the time of 10ms in a workflow that was minutes long. No amount of commenting could justify it.
  - bagacrap 7y ago
    The compiler doesn't care about comments, so in my experience comments quickly go out of date as others change the code and ignore comments. There's nothing to say code can't be performant and legible. In fact I'm a bit confused what "clever" means here. Writing performant but illegible code does not take more cleverness than performant while legible.
xvilka 7y ago
Time to Go.
- krabilicious 7y ago
  Rust In Peace
  - kgraves 7y ago
    The Zig is Up.
gamesbrainiac 7y ago
To be honest, it is a sad moment, but it was expected. When Guido resigned from BDFL, I knew that it was the beginning of the end. And lets be honest, he's earned it. Thank you Guido, after learning Python, I never looked back, and it has been the source of great joy for me over the last decade.
- gdulli 7y ago
  > Thank you Guido, after learning Python, I never looked back That matches my experience. All the pros and cons that in principle apply to any language, whether newer than Python or older, mean nothing to me in practice. Python is the one that feels right, the others feel like a chore. Since I started with Python 10 years ago, nothing has changed that. There's ways I'll insist that Python is the best at [x], and ways I'll concede some other language is better at [y]. But it never amounts to anything close to a debate about what language I should use.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    "But it never amounts to anything close to a debate about what language I should use." So if your task was to deliver let's say commercial grade FFT library ( substitute with any other long computationally extensive process ) for consumption by others you would write it in Python?
    - FpUser 7y ago
      Simple question leads to downvoting? Looks like we have a knight in shining armor protecting the castle of Python.
      - greenshackle2 7y ago
        Questions made in bad faith tend to be downvoted. Is this really a suprise?
        FpUser 7y ago
diminoten 7y ago
This is a cool read (and a shared sentiment!), I've always wondered what industry luminaries do day-to-day, and hasn't it been quite the draw for Dropbox from a recruiting perspective, to say, "Oh, and Guido might want to ask you some questions about your code." I wonder what "retirement" means for Guido. The Python/software community could never hear from him again and he'd completely deserve the rest (and we the community would be immensely grateful for the work already poured in), but I get the sense that won't be the case. :D
gnulinux 7y ago
Thank you for creating an awesome lingua franca for a generation of programmers, engineers, and scientists Guido! You'll never be forgotten. Love!
dragonsh 7y ago
Language, its community and development model is a reflection of its creator and his philosophy. So Without meeting the creator Guido, through language and its community I can see is very humble and care about things besides solving computer science problems. May be this is one of the reasons of success of Python and its community which is open, humble, friendly and inclusive. In my startup we have been using Python as one of the primary development language, and thanks to its community and Guido, we will continue to do so in time to come. I recently watched a talk by creator of Elm language [1] [2] who is trying to create similar community like Python, I will try it besides lisp, since I like the ethos of Python like community and obviously PEP-20 [3]. From my whole team thanks to Guido, and Python community. [1] https://elm-lang.org/ https://elm-lang.org/ [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlzRt-FYto https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlzRt-FYto [3] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/
- iandanforth 7y ago
  I'll also add "silly." A not-too-serious attitude from day one helps protect a community (IMO). When your language is named after a surrealist comedy troupe it kinda takes the wind out of the sails of moral outrage. Whimsy is surprisingly powerful.
  - michaelcampbell 7y ago
    Which is odd to me; I resisted using python much because of the rabid culture around it, and I tried, several times. They didn't get the nickname "pythonistas" for nothing, nor in jest. It is much, much better of late (I was thrust into a role a year ago where I am doing 95% of my coding in python now). I'm not sure what's changed; I had assumed it was the "core" culturalists were diluted by the influx of ML people, but it is only an assumption.
    - acdha 7y ago
      That might have been an artifact of small sample sizes: I couldn’t think of any time in the last couple decades where I would have used “rabid” to describe Python culture as a whole.
oldgun 7y ago
Thank you, Guido! I've learned Python and since loved Computer Science.
pauloxnet 7y ago
"I think at his core, Guido is a person who is trying to help make the world better in his own way. I think that was his philosophy when he started programming in Python and mentoring women is just another way that he contributes." -- Sushma Yadlapalli about Guido van Rossum
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exabrial 7y ago
> It is so intuitive and beautifully designed No it's not. Significant whitespace, underscores that mean things, lack of type system (but people treat variables as typed anyway), et all, make it quite a difficult language to understand. And we won't get into performance problems that it's cult following turns a blind eye to. I will say Python has inspired a generation of languages that got away from the C-inspired syntax. We're moved to critically thinking about _why_ we write code the way we do, rather than simply accepting things because "that's the way it's done" and for that we owe Python a great debt.
- dubcanada 7y ago
  It's a blog post about the creator of python leaving Dropbox a company who uses a TON of Python. Did you expect them to complain about Python? Of course there is issues, as there is with ANY language. Stop these silly language wars...
- jgwil2 7y ago
  Python is well-designed for what it is, and it certainly seems intuitive compared to bash or perl or whatever people were using before, but it is opinionated in a way that makes it hard to write anything but procedural-style code. That quality draws some people to it, but it's not a language that can be everything to everyone.
  - cookie_monsta 7y ago
    > it's not a language that can be everything to everyone. Unlike say, for example...?
    - jgwil2 7y ago
      I'll probably get shit on for saying this, but JS comes closer. It's multi-paradigm, performant, and TS provides static type checking for those that want it. Of course, JS is also a language that gets excoriated for being poorly designed, so maybe intuitive design and adaptability are fundamentally at odds with each other.
    - 7y ago
gustavmer 7y ago
Thank you, Guido!
Communitivity 7y ago
This article is a sign of class, well done Dropbox. I too have to say Thank you Guido. Python 1.5 helped me a lot with several projects way back when. Then I got into Django later, and marvelled at how easy it was to use. Now I use Python (and other things) for AI. I am sad because of the motivation for Guido leaving the BFDL position, but empathize and understand. I hope he has fair winds and following seas for whatever journey he sails on next.
not2b 7y ago
Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.
- jredwards 7y ago
  Definitely stood out for me. We haven't started that process either, but we're hoping to soon.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  There has to be a term for when the business builds something with one tech stack, and then later, as if it was totally by surprise, realizes it needs to replace the whole thing, for basically no added business-value, and this happens every few years. I mean, everyone has known they would have to do this eventually, but it just kept being put off, like the business is a bad procrastinator. And they all do this.
  - whitten 7y ago
    I assume you are referring to "technical debt", unless you were being ironic and I didn't catch your irony emoji. (Is there an ironic emoji?)
    - riffraff 7y ago
      there almost is, an irony mark or percontation point "⸮" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
    - badfrog 7y ago
      I don't think that quite applies. Technical debt comes from making choices that help you in the short term but cost you more in the long run (i.e. you're paying interest). Needing to move off a deprecated tech stack wouldn't really qualify unless there was a longer-term option available at the time you originally decided on your tech stack.
raverbashing 7y ago
A more than deserved retirement. And I'm sure there will be plenty of free time coding as well. Given the impact Python has had on my career I'm nothing but grateful for it. Thank You
ohduran 7y ago
I hated C++ and Matlab as an undergraduate. Hell, I hated programming as a whole - and effectively swear never to write a line of code once I was done with my BSc in Physics. Then, at work, I was introduced to Python. It was so...obvious, for lack of a better world. It was like a language I always knew that never spoke before. I'm now a software engineer, write Python almost all day, and looking back to the 18-year old version of myself, I would only say "if only you knew". That, and more, is what people like Guido and those who followed his path enable people like me to do: enjoy the art of programming. Thanks Guido, and enjoy your well-deserved retirement.
- aerovistae 7y ago
  > It was like a language I always knew that I never spoke before. God that's well put
  - wil421 7y ago
    Agreed. Learning Python for side projects and hobby stuff. The zen is real. It’s making me dislike writing JavaScript at my day job.
    - icemelt8 7y ago
      I am the opposite, I don't like Python but I love JS.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  > obvious Yes, coming from Perl that was a huge hit.
- b0rsuk 7y ago
  On the upside, it gave you motivation to double down on Python to make up for the lost time.
- xtracto 7y ago
  Interesting. I myself come form an Software Engineering background, and started programming very young in Logo (a LISP derivate), then BASIC, C, C++, Java, Ruby and a bunch of others. I have hated programming in Python every time I have had to do it (several times through my career). It I think the only language that I have really hated ... the language itself. I've done Z80 and 8086 assembly, I've done Prolog, I've done Pascal, VB, VB.net, C#, R, Matlab, JavaScript, ActionScript and even Z (formal language) but no other language has made me swear at it haha.
stochastastic 7y ago
Thank you Guido! At the risk of sounding saccharine, Python has literally made life better for my colleagues and me. In the corporate, financial world where I’ve been working, people often see coding as someone else’s job. Python, and the community that has grown around it, have made programming accessible (socially acceptable?). It has saved months of work for us. I hope you enjoy whatever you set yourself to next.
- signal11 7y ago
  Indeed, new joiners in investment banks these days are increasingly expected to know Python at least -- and not just for technology roles, but junior traders and managers as well. For financial services it's the new VBA, but better.
- abricot 7y ago
  I can only agree. Me and a colleague are the only ones using Python for HR (HRIS) that we know of, but people are very interested when we tell them how we use it for data quality, automation and reporting. There will surely be more in the future.
glofish 7y ago
The genius of Python is that it treads that fine line between allowing too little or too much control. Between being too strict or too liberal. Between trading speed for clarity and simplicity. It is the ideal programming language for an increasing set of tasks.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  The only really risky part of adopting it at enterprise scale is that it's flexible enough that a developer can trick themselves into thinking they can extend it and they end up falling into DSL hell (where you're technically still using Python, but you've bent it so far via its runtime-dynamism that static analysis tools can't help you and you're now writing both code and a toolchain to support writing code). But you don't have to do that to yourself to use the language.
pacaro 7y ago
I was fortunate enough to work with Guido, albeit briefly, during my time at Dropbox. He was always a great co-worker. But you definitely didn't have to work directly with him to get to know him, because of his commute choices he was always at work when breakfast was being served (food, the true high point of working at Dropbox) and the intersection of Dropbox culture and Guido's personality meant that it was easy just to go sit at the same table and have breakfast with him and get to know him.
w-m 7y ago
There's a whole generation of programming language creators born in the early to mid 1950s. In no particular order: Guido van Rossum (Python), Bjarne Stroustrup (C++), James Gosling (Java), Rob Pike (Go), Larry Wall (Perl), Walter Bright (D). Makes me wonder what kind of secret club they have going on.. Enjoy the retirement, Guido!
- raister 7y ago
  I can only dream of a panel or a TED talk with those computing sages! (I guess they are all alive right)
  - lordgrenville 7y ago
    This is pretty close! (Guido van Rossum, James Gosling, Larry Wall and Anders Hejlsberg) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU
    - shurane 7y ago
      Wow,surprised to see this at a local meetup in Seattle. Thought it would be a kind of event for a much bigger venue.
  - noobdood 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401656
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > Makes me wonder what kind of secret club they have going on It's no secret; they lived through the time where the computing power was outstripping people's ability to express ideas harnessing that power, and the world was ripe for more expressive languages that leaned harder on the CPU to convert them into action. And, that's still true. ;) New languages are being invented, some haven't caught on yet.
  - 7y ago
jteppinette 7y ago
While reading the article, I found myself just playing with the top bar. This is a decently common pattern that I always find distracting.
deforciant 7y ago
After coding in Delphi, Java, C and C++ - Python was the first language that I really enjoyed coding it. When you enjoy a language, it's easy to start working on fun side projects that advance your skills and you continue improving yourself. Even though I don't write pretty much Python anymore, I still like and respect the language and would definitely recommend it to any new comers in programming. Thanks for Python!
hyperpallium 7y ago
If we judge leadership by the quality of followers, python's ecosystem says it all.
klhugo 7y ago
Congrats Guido. But don't bulshit me about retirement - you will probably find something else to keep your mind busy :)
AdmiralAsshat 7y ago
Guido seems to have been incredibly good on the mentoring front, particularly with getting women into the community. I wonder if he'll continue doing that at all even after he goes into "retirement". It seems like a great asset to the community.
this_na_hipster 7y ago
Thank you Guido for all you did for this community. While others have pointed out your contributions to the Python community, I have found inspiration in how you paved a path to the engineering culture all around us. In a time when career progression was to transition into management after a certain degree of tenure, your adamant refusal to stay technical and "just code" has shaped my personal views and my own aspirations for my career. You will always be cherished
tathagatadg 7y ago
I owe a lot to the python language and the community. One thing specifically stands out with Guido is humility. Smart, successful and kind ... empathy for others - from the language design to focus on readability, to helping new comers - what an amazing role model! It is no surprise when you see that reflection in the python community at large.
VectorLock 7y ago
Python made programming fun for me again. Thanks, Guido.
goluh 7y ago
Thank!
tibbydudeza 7y ago
Well deserved.
jf 7y ago
For those of us running ad-blockers, here is a version that is readable thanks to the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20191030162322/https://blog.dropbox.com/topics/company/thank-you--guido https://web.archive.org/web/20191030162322/https://blog.drop...
- savanaly 7y ago
  I'm running uBlock origin and I'm not sure what you're talking about, the original looks normal to me?
chubot 7y ago
My whole career was based around Python -- 16+ years of it. I used many other languages but Python was the most enjoyable and useful. Thanks Guido!
rafaelvasco 7y ago
It's been some time since I programmed in Python and it left a good impression with some caveats. I remember being bothered by the lack of a strong type checker. I see that now there is MyPy. Good to know. The other problem is the lack of a super fast runtime. A Python to C compiler would be great. I remember using Cython but didn't like it that much, even though it was much faster then normal Python;
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuitka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuitka
deleted 7y ago
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deg4uss3r 7y ago
Why did this take so long to load?
m0zg 7y ago
If he's anything like me he won't stay "retired" for long. The longest I lasted without anything coding-related to do is 9 months.
jsshah 7y ago
Someone who worked at Dropbox shared an anecdote. Guido received an email from some recruiter along the line "You seem to have great experience in Python. How many years of experience you have with Python?" To which he replied "All of it!". I am not sure if it is true story.
- xtracto 7y ago
  Haha, reminded me of a time when I had just quit from a company as head of engineering, and a couple of weeks later a new Jr. recruiter for said company sent me one of those generic emails telling me that she liked my LinkedIn profile, and how she would love to talk to me about an open developer position at the company. I chuckled and forwarded the email to the then head of HR and CEO. I am good friends with both, and I knew they will take it with humor. It is difficult to find good recruiters.
- Zanneth 7y ago
  I heard a story about when he used to work at Google, he would get pulled into interviews where the candidate was brave enough to write “Python expert” on their resumé. There’s definitely no one better to grill someone on their Python skills than the guy who invented it!
jve 7y ago
> The result of this is nearly four million lines of checked Python code, nearly 200,000 improved type definitions, and countless hours saved for engineers. The more I code the more I appreciate statically typed languages. When I learned/started coding, I liked dynamically typed languages. It was easier to get past compiler. My code seemed to do something. And if there was anything wrong in the way, it would just continue to execute making me feel that my code is at least doing something. Now more into programming, I don't want to go back to duck-typed languages. I like when compiler gives me guarantees along with exceptions being thrown at runtime when something goes wrong, crashing the program and noticing it immediately that something is wrong. I think language people also recognizes benefits. - PHP7 allows using strict types. - Python has static type support - Javasript -> Typescript Disclaimer: Have used php, tried ruby. Using C# and javascript. Looking forward to typescript. Do dynamic language people: 1. Write more tests? 2. Have more defective code? 3. Are better at writing code? 4. Maybe there is just no correlation between code correctness and static/dynamic lang. I just wrote down MY feelings.
- aisengard 7y ago
  Dynamic language people also typically write _less_ code, at least when it comes to Python.
- savanaly 7y ago
  Expanding brain mode: Typescript -> Elm
didip 7y ago
The article made it sounds like Dropbox is no longer pure 100% Python. What other languages do they use now?
- lwf 7y ago
  Go's the other best-supported infra language, Rust is used for things like block storage (Magic Pocket). There's some amount of Java and C++, but those are all considered legacy. Yet, most application engineers are still writing Python on the backend and TypeScript for the frontend. [I work at Dropbox]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- adonese 7y ago
  They are heavily using GO
wgyn 7y ago
> For the last several months, Guido and Sushma have been meeting once a week to talk about all things programming. But Sushma says the biggest takeaways were not just about how to do things, but how to become more confident and learn how to figure things out on your own. The part about Guido personally mentoring women engineers is, despite his (obvious) technical contributions, the most impressive part about his Dropbox tenure to me. The article mentions him leading by example and it's inspiring to see someone of that stature and level of accomplishment willing to spend time with individuals. It's one thing to talk about fostering a welcoming community, it's quite another to offer up his time so generously when he could be doing "higher leverage" things with regards to diversity.
yingw787 7y ago
Thank you Guido. Because of you and your work, incumbents have been toppled, careers have shifted Or skyrocketed, and fortunes have been reaped. I hope retirement is as kind to Guido as Guido has been kind to us. Also highly encourage people to read the PEPs, as well as mailing list archives and interesting bugs on bugs.python.org. The PSF highly encourages backwards compatibility so that history is all there and live :)
hinkley 7y ago
One of the things some of us learn with experience is that “clever code only the author can understand” is often a lie, too. I may be able to figure it out on the fly but code I haven’t touched in six months is less familiar than other people’s code that I touched a month ago. When I leave hints in the code it’s enlightened self interest. It’s often as much for my own benefit as for others.
meed 7y ago
Off topic (sorry): Dropbox's overall typography is blatantly offensive to the eye.
- mitchtbaum 7y ago
  It happens (no worries): We did see before; we do see forevermore. ( ~ might be putting the cart before the horse. ~ take it easy )
michalf6 7y ago
I'm travelling with poor cellular connection and it took me 10 minutes to load this page, while I could load and read content on HN perfectly fine. The text content loaded LAST. That website is terrible.
- musicale 7y ago
  Welcome to the modern web, where you need to download megabytes of largely useless crap to display 1 kilobyte of text. We don't just need ad blocking, we need crap blocking and text caching.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Agreed, I'm at a desktop with 100mb connection and I had to reload it twice and it still took about 1 minute to show itself.
blt 7y ago
> When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code. If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. It would be great to see some examples of this rewriting. I feel that we see a lot of examples of converting repetitive code to terse code, but fewer examples of "de-clevering" code.
kissgyorgy 7y ago
Python literally changed my life. I was in a bad situation when I started learning it, and from that point, job offers never ended, a whole new world opened for me. Not sure if another language could have done that for me. Thank You, Guido!
thewileyone 7y ago
I first learned Python back in 1996, when there was just one Python forum where Guido answered any and all questions. He was gracious and polite enough not to call me a dumbass for not realizing that tabs were a requirement, not an option. That was also when I became a tab-convert. Thank you Guido for this incredible tool that has helped so many others actualize their solution aspirations.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  You may have meant this, but in case a newbie reads: Tabs are not a requirement, pep8 recommends 4 spaces per indent level.
demosito666 7y ago
Usually any post about python is about how shitty the language is and how one can't write anything larger than hello world in dynamically typed language. This one in wholesome, I like it.

1269 points by pauloxnet 7y ago

"“When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code,” he said. “If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. So I led by example, and also by talking to other people.”" This is very sage advice.

tyingq 7y ago
Interesting in the context of Dropbox, as they ship the client code as obfuscated and encrypted pyc files and a custom runtime that's pretty "clever": https://anvilventures.com/blog/looking-inside-the-box.html https://anvilventures.com/blog/looking-inside-the-box.html Edit. Yes I get the difference and the reasons they do this. The wordplay crossover (cryptic, clever, etc) was notable to me, and reminded me of the link I posted above.
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  We're not the intended audience for the code. We're just the consumers.
- _coveredInBees 7y ago
  That has zero bearing on the point Guido was making. He is talking about development practices. The client code is not being sent to users for them to develop code and contribute to the Dropbox codebase.
- jamestenglish 7y ago
  Just because the outcome of the code (i.e. obfuscated code) is "clever" doesn't mean that the code that does the obfuscation is clever
skellera 7y ago
You’d think it would be common sense when writing something that other people will read. We don’t see people writing books in acronyms or omitting words. How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are?
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  It's terrible. People use deliberate crypticness to flex on everyone who hasn't seen x subniche of programming style before. They designed it to be like this to be the gatekeeper at their organization.
- pdonis 7y ago
  > How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are? Writing clever code doesn't mean it's being done for that reason. As the article notes, Guido himself agreed that in the early stages of developing a piece of software, such as in an early stage startup, it probably makes sense to write clever code, because you can get it done faster and therefore iterate faster on improving the code to meet user needs. At this stage very few people are working on the code (often just one), so communicating with other developers is not a big issue. The need for making it maintainable comes later, when the product is mature and many more people are working on the code, so the need for clear communication becomes much stronger.
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  You say that, but then there's more advanced writings like scientific papers which will freely use domain-specific terms and / or maths; I'm not saying that's bad, it's just that because I'm not at home with these terms and / or subjects I won't invest the time in trying to decipher it. Also because unlike with code, I don't actually have to of course.
- chipgap98 7y ago
  That metaphor doesn't hold up. Literature is full of allegories, figures of speech, allusion, and other forms of imagery. I agree that code should be as straightforward as possible, but I don't think books follow that rule.
- 7y ago
vkat 7y ago
I think this is what experience teaches. Sometimes I have the itch to write clever code but then more often than not it ends up being cryptic to other developers. If you really have to write clever code, wrap it up in a well defined interface and write a bunch of tests.
- rstupek 7y ago
  I've found it also becomes cryptic to your future self who will have to figure out how to maintain it going forward
streetcat1 7y ago
probably would help if he added static typing from the get go.
Alex3917 7y ago
> This is very sage advice. I mean in real life (when you don't have Guido to do it for you), if people are writing code you can't understand then you need to tell them to fix it. And many people don't like being told they need to rewrite their code because you can't understand it, so it leads to conflict and eventually you often need to fire people. So yes, it's good advice, but by cleaning up engineering debt you're often going to take on a lot of team debt.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  There's a delicate balance that often lies in hiring process. There are people who simply refuse to understand generics and/or stream APIs. Which are to (most) programmers more readable then the same logic being drawn out in a loop. Meanwhile some other programmer would just write code golf and brag about it. At the end of the day, it should be about enforcing a coding style that defines what you can or can't do. Adding final to all variable that can be final for instance is a great start.
- trilinearnz 7y ago
  We have reached a middle ground in our organisation (not a tech company, so there is less code and a slower pace). We don't require rewrites, but simply recommend that next time the code be written in a more lenient style. The education aspect is a good lens through which to view the issue also, sometimes resistance to an unfamiliar style is due to a fixed mindset around a known set of language functionality. It could be an opportunity to learn something new which is genuinely useful.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
doc_gunthrop 7y ago
That coincides with the following: > Code is read many more times than it is written. Writing code costs something, but over time the cost of reading is often higher. Anyone who ever looks at a piece of code has to invest brain-power into figuring out what it does.[1] This is also noted in PEP8: > One of Guido's key insights is that code is read much more often than it is written. The guidelines provided here are intended to improve the readability of code and make it consistent across the wide spectrum of Python code. As PEP 20 says, "Readability counts".[2] [1]: https://www.sandimetz.com/blog/2017/6/1/the-half-life-of-code https://www.sandimetz.com/blog/2017/6/1/the-half-life-of-cod... [2]: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#a-foolish-consistency-is-the-hobgoblin-of-little-minds https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#a-foolish-consiste...
- RaiseProfits 7y ago
  Who would have thought the best argument against an 80 character cap in pep8 would come from guido himself?
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Anyone who charitably reads what he writes.
- hinkley 7y ago
  I’m finding that one of the biggest time sinks is code that looks like it’s doing something other than what it’s actually doing. Code smells draw the eye when debugging. Your brain wants the problem to be in the code that’s clearly “wrong”. So smelly code anywhere near common code paths has a huge cost compared to smelly code in some leaf function in an obscure feature. One of the wisdoms of XP, I think. The code you touch the most should be the sanest.
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  > Code is read many more times than it is written I'm really curious how true this is. Partly because, if it really was read more than it is written, people would optimize to /write less/ of it - if you have to pick up everything you put on the floor ten times over, it will incentivize you to put fewer things on the floor in future. And people would say things about code which people say about writing, such as "you have to write for your audience", instead of the more common "it's either boolean readable or unreadable". And partly because I suspect code is /skimmed over/ more than it is read; that is, people assume what it does, glance at its shape, then if there's no surprise triggered, move on. I would be interested to know if anyone has studied what it means for code to be read, but my suspicions are that most code which works is almost never read, and most code which is read, is read because it doesn't work and therefore it will be self-selected to be poor code in some regard. But then, I'm not a programmer working on a large codebase. Those of you who are, how much of it have you read in enough detail that you verified how it works - and no assuming that a method does what its name implies, or assuming that if it passes tests it must work, but actually verifying by studying it that it does what it should and that you understand it?
huhtenberg 7y ago
The third option, of course, is to just comment your clever code to make it less cryptic. Yes, you can have your pie and eat it :)
- nomel 7y ago
  Unless there’s a real and needed benefit, why complicate it? I’ve seen clever code that was 300% faster, half the lines, completely unreadable, and called once per session, for a total the time of 10ms in a workflow that was minutes long. No amount of commenting could justify it.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  The compiler doesn't care about comments, so in my experience comments quickly go out of date as others change the code and ignore comments. There's nothing to say code can't be performant and legible. In fact I'm a bit confused what "clever" means here. Writing performant but illegible code does not take more cleverness than performant while legible.

xvilka 7y ago

Time to Go.

krabilicious 7y ago
Rust In Peace
- kgraves 7y ago
  The Zig is Up.

gamesbrainiac 7y ago

To be honest, it is a sad moment, but it was expected. When Guido resigned from BDFL, I knew that it was the beginning of the end. And lets be honest, he's earned it. Thank you Guido, after learning Python, I never looked back, and it has been the source of great joy for me over the last decade.

gdulli 7y ago
> Thank you Guido, after learning Python, I never looked back That matches my experience. All the pros and cons that in principle apply to any language, whether newer than Python or older, mean nothing to me in practice. Python is the one that feels right, the others feel like a chore. Since I started with Python 10 years ago, nothing has changed that. There's ways I'll insist that Python is the best at [x], and ways I'll concede some other language is better at [y]. But it never amounts to anything close to a debate about what language I should use.
- FpUser 7y ago
  "But it never amounts to anything close to a debate about what language I should use." So if your task was to deliver let's say commercial grade FFT library ( substitute with any other long computationally extensive process ) for consumption by others you would write it in Python?
  - FpUser 7y ago
    Simple question leads to downvoting? Looks like we have a knight in shining armor protecting the castle of Python.
    - greenshackle2 7y ago
      Questions made in bad faith tend to be downvoted. Is this really a suprise?
      - FpUser 7y ago

diminoten 7y ago

This is a cool read (and a shared sentiment!), I've always wondered what industry luminaries do day-to-day, and hasn't it been quite the draw for Dropbox from a recruiting perspective, to say, "Oh, and Guido might want to ask you some questions about your code." I wonder what "retirement" means for Guido. The Python/software community could never hear from him again and he'd completely deserve the rest (and we the community would be immensely grateful for the work already poured in), but I get the sense that won't be the case. :D

gnulinux 7y ago

Thank you for creating an awesome lingua franca for a generation of programmers, engineers, and scientists Guido! You'll never be forgotten. Love!

dragonsh 7y ago

Language, its community and development model is a reflection of its creator and his philosophy. So Without meeting the creator Guido, through language and its community I can see is very humble and care about things besides solving computer science problems. May be this is one of the reasons of success of Python and its community which is open, humble, friendly and inclusive. In my startup we have been using Python as one of the primary development language, and thanks to its community and Guido, we will continue to do so in time to come. I recently watched a talk by creator of Elm language [1] [2] who is trying to create similar community like Python, I will try it besides lisp, since I like the ethos of Python like community and obviously PEP-20 [3]. From my whole team thanks to Guido, and Python community. [1] https://elm-lang.org/ https://elm-lang.org/ [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlzRt-FYto https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlzRt-FYto [3] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/

iandanforth 7y ago
I'll also add "silly." A not-too-serious attitude from day one helps protect a community (IMO). When your language is named after a surrealist comedy troupe it kinda takes the wind out of the sails of moral outrage. Whimsy is surprisingly powerful.
- michaelcampbell 7y ago
  Which is odd to me; I resisted using python much because of the rabid culture around it, and I tried, several times. They didn't get the nickname "pythonistas" for nothing, nor in jest. It is much, much better of late (I was thrust into a role a year ago where I am doing 95% of my coding in python now). I'm not sure what's changed; I had assumed it was the "core" culturalists were diluted by the influx of ML people, but it is only an assumption.
  - acdha 7y ago
    That might have been an artifact of small sample sizes: I couldn’t think of any time in the last couple decades where I would have used “rabid” to describe Python culture as a whole.

oldgun 7y ago

Thank you, Guido! I've learned Python and since loved Computer Science.

pauloxnet 7y ago

"I think at his core, Guido is a person who is trying to help make the world better in his own way. I think that was his philosophy when he started programming in Python and mentoring women is just another way that he contributes." -- Sushma Yadlapalli about Guido van Rossum

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

exabrial 7y ago

> It is so intuitive and beautifully designed No it's not. Significant whitespace, underscores that mean things, lack of type system (but people treat variables as typed anyway), et all, make it quite a difficult language to understand. And we won't get into performance problems that it's cult following turns a blind eye to. I will say Python has inspired a generation of languages that got away from the C-inspired syntax. We're moved to critically thinking about _why_ we write code the way we do, rather than simply accepting things because "that's the way it's done" and for that we owe Python a great debt.

dubcanada 7y ago
It's a blog post about the creator of python leaving Dropbox a company who uses a TON of Python. Did you expect them to complain about Python? Of course there is issues, as there is with ANY language. Stop these silly language wars...
jgwil2 7y ago
Python is well-designed for what it is, and it certainly seems intuitive compared to bash or perl or whatever people were using before, but it is opinionated in a way that makes it hard to write anything but procedural-style code. That quality draws some people to it, but it's not a language that can be everything to everyone.
- cookie_monsta 7y ago
  > it's not a language that can be everything to everyone. Unlike say, for example...?
  - jgwil2 7y ago
    I'll probably get shit on for saying this, but JS comes closer. It's multi-paradigm, performant, and TS provides static type checking for those that want it. Of course, JS is also a language that gets excoriated for being poorly designed, so maybe intuitive design and adaptability are fundamentally at odds with each other.
  - 7y ago

gustavmer 7y ago

Thank you, Guido!

Communitivity 7y ago

This article is a sign of class, well done Dropbox. I too have to say Thank you Guido. Python 1.5 helped me a lot with several projects way back when. Then I got into Django later, and marvelled at how easy it was to use. Now I use Python (and other things) for AI. I am sad because of the motivation for Guido leaving the BFDL position, but empathize and understand. I hope he has fair winds and following seas for whatever journey he sails on next.

not2b 7y ago

Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.

jredwards 7y ago
Definitely stood out for me. We haven't started that process either, but we're hoping to soon.
peterwwillis 7y ago
There has to be a term for when the business builds something with one tech stack, and then later, as if it was totally by surprise, realizes it needs to replace the whole thing, for basically no added business-value, and this happens every few years. I mean, everyone has known they would have to do this eventually, but it just kept being put off, like the business is a bad procrastinator. And they all do this.
- whitten 7y ago
  I assume you are referring to "technical debt", unless you were being ironic and I didn't catch your irony emoji. (Is there an ironic emoji?)
  - riffraff 7y ago
    there almost is, an irony mark or percontation point "⸮" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
  - badfrog 7y ago
    I don't think that quite applies. Technical debt comes from making choices that help you in the short term but cost you more in the long run (i.e. you're paying interest). Needing to move off a deprecated tech stack wouldn't really qualify unless there was a longer-term option available at the time you originally decided on your tech stack.

raverbashing 7y ago

A more than deserved retirement. And I'm sure there will be plenty of free time coding as well. Given the impact Python has had on my career I'm nothing but grateful for it. Thank You

ohduran 7y ago

I hated C++ and Matlab as an undergraduate. Hell, I hated programming as a whole - and effectively swear never to write a line of code once I was done with my BSc in Physics. Then, at work, I was introduced to Python. It was so...obvious, for lack of a better world. It was like a language I always knew that never spoke before. I'm now a software engineer, write Python almost all day, and looking back to the 18-year old version of myself, I would only say "if only you knew". That, and more, is what people like Guido and those who followed his path enable people like me to do: enjoy the art of programming. Thanks Guido, and enjoy your well-deserved retirement.

aerovistae 7y ago
> It was like a language I always knew that I never spoke before. God that's well put
- wil421 7y ago
  Agreed. Learning Python for side projects and hobby stuff. The zen is real. It’s making me dislike writing JavaScript at my day job.
  - icemelt8 7y ago
    I am the opposite, I don't like Python but I love JS.
marcosdumay 7y ago
> obvious Yes, coming from Perl that was a huge hit.
b0rsuk 7y ago
On the upside, it gave you motivation to double down on Python to make up for the lost time.
xtracto 7y ago
Interesting. I myself come form an Software Engineering background, and started programming very young in Logo (a LISP derivate), then BASIC, C, C++, Java, Ruby and a bunch of others. I have hated programming in Python every time I have had to do it (several times through my career). It I think the only language that I have really hated ... the language itself. I've done Z80 and 8086 assembly, I've done Prolog, I've done Pascal, VB, VB.net, C#, R, Matlab, JavaScript, ActionScript and even Z (formal language) but no other language has made me swear at it haha.

stochastastic 7y ago

Thank you Guido! At the risk of sounding saccharine, Python has literally made life better for my colleagues and me. In the corporate, financial world where I’ve been working, people often see coding as someone else’s job. Python, and the community that has grown around it, have made programming accessible (socially acceptable?). It has saved months of work for us. I hope you enjoy whatever you set yourself to next.

signal11 7y ago
Indeed, new joiners in investment banks these days are increasingly expected to know Python at least -- and not just for technology roles, but junior traders and managers as well. For financial services it's the new VBA, but better.
abricot 7y ago
I can only agree. Me and a colleague are the only ones using Python for HR (HRIS) that we know of, but people are very interested when we tell them how we use it for data quality, automation and reporting. There will surely be more in the future.

glofish 7y ago

The genius of Python is that it treads that fine line between allowing too little or too much control. Between being too strict or too liberal. Between trading speed for clarity and simplicity. It is the ideal programming language for an increasing set of tasks.

shadowgovt 7y ago
The only really risky part of adopting it at enterprise scale is that it's flexible enough that a developer can trick themselves into thinking they can extend it and they end up falling into DSL hell (where you're technically still using Python, but you've bent it so far via its runtime-dynamism that static analysis tools can't help you and you're now writing both code and a toolchain to support writing code). But you don't have to do that to yourself to use the language.

pacaro 7y ago

I was fortunate enough to work with Guido, albeit briefly, during my time at Dropbox. He was always a great co-worker. But you definitely didn't have to work directly with him to get to know him, because of his commute choices he was always at work when breakfast was being served (food, the true high point of working at Dropbox) and the intersection of Dropbox culture and Guido's personality meant that it was easy just to go sit at the same table and have breakfast with him and get to know him.

w-m 7y ago

There's a whole generation of programming language creators born in the early to mid 1950s. In no particular order: Guido van Rossum (Python), Bjarne Stroustrup (C++), James Gosling (Java), Rob Pike (Go), Larry Wall (Perl), Walter Bright (D). Makes me wonder what kind of secret club they have going on.. Enjoy the retirement, Guido!

raister 7y ago
I can only dream of a panel or a TED talk with those computing sages! (I guess they are all alive right)
- lordgrenville 7y ago
  This is pretty close! (Guido van Rossum, James Gosling, Larry Wall and Anders Hejlsberg) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csL8DLXGNlU
  - shurane 7y ago
    Wow,surprised to see this at a local meetup in Seattle. Thought it would be a kind of event for a much bigger venue.
- noobdood 7y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401656
shadowgovt 7y ago
> Makes me wonder what kind of secret club they have going on It's no secret; they lived through the time where the computing power was outstripping people's ability to express ideas harnessing that power, and the world was ripe for more expressive languages that leaned harder on the CPU to convert them into action. And, that's still true. ;) New languages are being invented, some haven't caught on yet.
- 7y ago

jteppinette 7y ago

While reading the article, I found myself just playing with the top bar. This is a decently common pattern that I always find distracting.

deforciant 7y ago

After coding in Delphi, Java, C and C++ - Python was the first language that I really enjoyed coding it. When you enjoy a language, it's easy to start working on fun side projects that advance your skills and you continue improving yourself. Even though I don't write pretty much Python anymore, I still like and respect the language and would definitely recommend it to any new comers in programming. Thanks for Python!

hyperpallium 7y ago

If we judge leadership by the quality of followers, python's ecosystem says it all.

klhugo 7y ago

Congrats Guido. But don't bulshit me about retirement - you will probably find something else to keep your mind busy :)

AdmiralAsshat 7y ago

Guido seems to have been incredibly good on the mentoring front, particularly with getting women into the community. I wonder if he'll continue doing that at all even after he goes into "retirement". It seems like a great asset to the community.

this_na_hipster 7y ago

Thank you Guido for all you did for this community. While others have pointed out your contributions to the Python community, I have found inspiration in how you paved a path to the engineering culture all around us. In a time when career progression was to transition into management after a certain degree of tenure, your adamant refusal to stay technical and "just code" has shaped my personal views and my own aspirations for my career. You will always be cherished

tathagatadg 7y ago

I owe a lot to the python language and the community. One thing specifically stands out with Guido is humility. Smart, successful and kind ... empathy for others - from the language design to focus on readability, to helping new comers - what an amazing role model! It is no surprise when you see that reflection in the python community at large.

VectorLock 7y ago

Python made programming fun for me again. Thanks, Guido.

goluh 7y ago

Thank!

tibbydudeza 7y ago

Well deserved.

jf 7y ago

For those of us running ad-blockers, here is a version that is readable thanks to the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20191030162322/https://blog.dropbox.com/topics/company/thank-you--guido https://web.archive.org/web/20191030162322/https://blog.drop...

savanaly 7y ago
I'm running uBlock origin and I'm not sure what you're talking about, the original looks normal to me?

chubot 7y ago

My whole career was based around Python -- 16+ years of it. I used many other languages but Python was the most enjoyable and useful. Thanks Guido!

rafaelvasco 7y ago

It's been some time since I programmed in Python and it left a good impression with some caveats. I remember being bothered by the lack of a strong type checker. I see that now there is MyPy. Good to know. The other problem is the lack of a super fast runtime. A Python to C compiler would be great. I remember using Cython but didn't like it that much, even though it was much faster then normal Python;

mixmastamyk 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuitka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuitka

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deg4uss3r 7y ago

Why did this take so long to load?

m0zg 7y ago

If he's anything like me he won't stay "retired" for long. The longest I lasted without anything coding-related to do is 9 months.

jsshah 7y ago

Someone who worked at Dropbox shared an anecdote. Guido received an email from some recruiter along the line "You seem to have great experience in Python. How many years of experience you have with Python?" To which he replied "All of it!". I am not sure if it is true story.

xtracto 7y ago
Haha, reminded me of a time when I had just quit from a company as head of engineering, and a couple of weeks later a new Jr. recruiter for said company sent me one of those generic emails telling me that she liked my LinkedIn profile, and how she would love to talk to me about an open developer position at the company. I chuckled and forwarded the email to the then head of HR and CEO. I am good friends with both, and I knew they will take it with humor. It is difficult to find good recruiters.
Zanneth 7y ago
I heard a story about when he used to work at Google, he would get pulled into interviews where the candidate was brave enough to write “Python expert” on their resumé. There’s definitely no one better to grill someone on their Python skills than the guy who invented it!

jve 7y ago

> The result of this is nearly four million lines of checked Python code, nearly 200,000 improved type definitions, and countless hours saved for engineers. The more I code the more I appreciate statically typed languages. When I learned/started coding, I liked dynamically typed languages. It was easier to get past compiler. My code seemed to do something. And if there was anything wrong in the way, it would just continue to execute making me feel that my code is at least doing something. Now more into programming, I don't want to go back to duck-typed languages. I like when compiler gives me guarantees along with exceptions being thrown at runtime when something goes wrong, crashing the program and noticing it immediately that something is wrong. I think language people also recognizes benefits. - PHP7 allows using strict types. - Python has static type support - Javasript -> Typescript Disclaimer: Have used php, tried ruby. Using C# and javascript. Looking forward to typescript. Do dynamic language people: 1. Write more tests? 2. Have more defective code? 3. Are better at writing code? 4. Maybe there is just no correlation between code correctness and static/dynamic lang. I just wrote down MY feelings.

aisengard 7y ago
Dynamic language people also typically write _less_ code, at least when it comes to Python.
savanaly 7y ago
Expanding brain mode: Typescript -> Elm

didip 7y ago

The article made it sounds like Dropbox is no longer pure 100% Python. What other languages do they use now?

lwf 7y ago
Go's the other best-supported infra language, Rust is used for things like block storage (Magic Pocket). There's some amount of Java and C++, but those are all considered legacy. Yet, most application engineers are still writing Python on the backend and TypeScript for the frontend. [I work at Dropbox]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
adonese 7y ago
They are heavily using GO

wgyn 7y ago

> For the last several months, Guido and Sushma have been meeting once a week to talk about all things programming. But Sushma says the biggest takeaways were not just about how to do things, but how to become more confident and learn how to figure things out on your own. The part about Guido personally mentoring women engineers is, despite his (obvious) technical contributions, the most impressive part about his Dropbox tenure to me. The article mentions him leading by example and it's inspiring to see someone of that stature and level of accomplishment willing to spend time with individuals. It's one thing to talk about fostering a welcoming community, it's quite another to offer up his time so generously when he could be doing "higher leverage" things with regards to diversity.

yingw787 7y ago

Thank you Guido. Because of you and your work, incumbents have been toppled, careers have shifted Or skyrocketed, and fortunes have been reaped. I hope retirement is as kind to Guido as Guido has been kind to us. Also highly encourage people to read the PEPs, as well as mailing list archives and interesting bugs on bugs.python.org. The PSF highly encourages backwards compatibility so that history is all there and live :)

hinkley 7y ago

One of the things some of us learn with experience is that “clever code only the author can understand” is often a lie, too. I may be able to figure it out on the fly but code I haven’t touched in six months is less familiar than other people’s code that I touched a month ago. When I leave hints in the code it’s enlightened self interest. It’s often as much for my own benefit as for others.

meed 7y ago

Off topic (sorry): Dropbox's overall typography is blatantly offensive to the eye.

mitchtbaum 7y ago
It happens (no worries): We did see before; we do see forevermore. ( ~ might be putting the cart before the horse. ~ take it easy )

michalf6 7y ago

I'm travelling with poor cellular connection and it took me 10 minutes to load this page, while I could load and read content on HN perfectly fine. The text content loaded LAST. That website is terrible.

musicale 7y ago
Welcome to the modern web, where you need to download megabytes of largely useless crap to display 1 kilobyte of text. We don't just need ad blocking, we need crap blocking and text caching.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
Agreed, I'm at a desktop with 100mb connection and I had to reload it twice and it still took about 1 minute to show itself.

blt 7y ago

> When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code. If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. It would be great to see some examples of this rewriting. I feel that we see a lot of examples of converting repetitive code to terse code, but fewer examples of "de-clevering" code.

kissgyorgy 7y ago

Python literally changed my life. I was in a bad situation when I started learning it, and from that point, job offers never ended, a whole new world opened for me. Not sure if another language could have done that for me. Thank You, Guido!

thewileyone 7y ago

I first learned Python back in 1996, when there was just one Python forum where Guido answered any and all questions. He was gracious and polite enough not to call me a dumbass for not realizing that tabs were a requirement, not an option. That was also when I became a tab-convert. Thank you Guido for this incredible tool that has helped so many others actualize their solution aspirations.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
You may have meant this, but in case a newbie reads: Tabs are not a requirement, pep8 recommends 4 spaces per indent level.

demosito666 7y ago

Usually any post about python is about how shitty the language is and how one can't write anything larger than hello world in dynamically typed language. This one in wholesome, I like it.