16 ms·

Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

238 points by Varqu 7y ago

zerr 7y ago
Cons: no Sun and the salaries seem to be capped at CHF 120-140K. Has that old school European mindset that managers and MBAs should be paid more than individual contributors, engineers.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  > no Sun Only in the winter. :) The other points hold as far as my experience goes.
  - fla 7y ago
    Not true, there's a ton of sun in the mountains above the clouds.
    - lukeqsee 7y ago
      Well, yes. I would say most developers can't go to their nearest 2500m peak and work for the day, though. :)
      - noncoml 7y ago
        He was trying to make a joke..
- dijit 7y ago
  Lots of Sun, but maybe not as much as Southern California. San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads for 180K CHF and that doesn't count stock options which is usually the bulk of compensation at the high end. Not sure about the MBA vs IC thing though.
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    > San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). Used to be true, but less and less given climate change
  - house9-2 7y ago
    > San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). San Francisco is on a peninsula, so it gets lots of fog. Its weather pattern does not represent the area in general. San Jose is further inland and very sunny most of the year. Today SF high will be 66F and San Jose 75F; big difference but in either case its mid-October and still t-shirt weather.
  - tiagopc 7y ago
    > Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads for 180K CHF Are you speaking about CH or USA? Because in CH it pretty much seems to be capped at 140k CHF and below. Unless you are speaking of a very specific role/technology stack.
    - dijit 7y ago
      I was applying for roles recently that were as high as 180K CHF (and that wasn't FAANG).
      - config_yml 7y ago
        Can you share some company names? Seems rare
        dijit 7y ago
        One I applied for recently was dacadoo[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo
  - peferron 7y ago
    Zurich (which is mentioned in the article) sees ~1,500 hours of sunshine a year [1]. That's absolutely horrendous and not "lots of sun" by any measure. I grew up in a place in France that gets slightly more sun than Zurich. I now live in the Bay Area Peninsula with 3,000+ hours of sunshine a year and the difference is incredible, especially in winter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_dur...
- notus 7y ago
  That mindset is definitely not exclusive to Europe, almost every country on the planet thinks managers and MBA's should be paid more than individual contributors. It's only a very recent trend in the US that it started to change.
  - api 7y ago
    ... and only in parts of the US. Historically compensation tends to be tied to age/seniority and hierarchical status, not contribution per se.
- tiborsaas 7y ago
  They still have the highest salaries in Europe. Anybody moving there from another European country would see those salaries as pretty awesome. I don't care what managers and MBA-s make until I can make an awesome living. I'm not more special.
  - point78 7y ago
    Also most expensive place to live in europe
    - tiborsaas 7y ago
      I did the math, still worth it by far.
  - holstvoogd 7y ago
    Exactly. I would make double what I make now in the Netherlands. That being said, everything is 2 to 3 times more expensive there. That might well be worth it given the quality of life you get there.
  - cstpdk 7y ago
    Copenhagen has about the same salary ranges as quoted in the article. Taxes are a higher, but healthcare is free and foreigners can get 3years of 25% flat tax rate if you get a tech job (based purely on income, I think). Living costs are lower than Switzerland, I rent 100sqm for about 1900EUR. Good cheese is more readily available in Switzerland though
- i_am_proteus 7y ago
  Not only does Switzerland have a Sun, it has the same Sun as California, just on a slightly different schedule.
  - krak12 7y ago
    Like appearing once every 6 months
  - dls2016 7y ago
    The cosine function would like to have a word with you...
  - microtherion 7y ago
    Just keep in mind the geography. Zürich is roughly as far north as Seattle, while San Francisco is a bit further south than Athens.
- config_yml 7y ago
  This is my experience as well. Even with > 10 years experience, it's hard to find engineering jobs paying > 120k. > In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF and if you are single and open to living with other people you can find a room in something called Wohngemeinde for as little as 800-1000 CHF. Good luck if you have a family, it's ~4k for 4.5 rooms (100sqm). Check the listings on the website, most of them cap out at 10k/month. That is gross, pre-tax. So net is about 8k max. > Maybe it is because of the crunch work culture that squeezes out everything out of employees and only gives a payout to founders and VCs? This is no different in Switzerland.
  - dt3ft 7y ago
    I know at least 6 other devs (backend, frontend, mobile) who work in Zurich that don't make it past 110k with 5+ years of experience.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    >> In Zurich, [...] you can find a room in something called Wohngemeinde This was an error in the original article, by the way. The correct word is "Wohngemeinschaft". "Wohngemeinde" means "city/town/village you're residing in". > Good luck if you have a family, it's ~4k for 4.5 rooms (100sqm). Well, yes and no. Rents can be quite high for new arrivals. But about 20% of rental apartments in Zürich are owned by non-profit Wohnbaugenossenschaften, where rents are a lot cheaper, rise very modestly, and as long as you're on good standing, you pretty much never get kicked out, but you need to get onto a waiting list for a number of months/years.
- aty268 7y ago
  The capped salary is a really big deal.
- amyjess 7y ago
  > Cons: no Sun That's a pro to me. I'm happiest when it's cool and cloudy, and everything to do with the sun is just brutally oppressive and makes it hard to get anything done.
- googlethrow 7y ago
  At Google Zürich the total comp starts at 160K chf/year for fresh grads and with counteroffers can go much higher.
  - dt3ft 7y ago
    What would the number be for an Interaction Designer?
- lm28469 7y ago
  > that old school European mindset Not sure in what kind of bubble you live but it's like that everywhere except if you're a tech engineer in a SV tech company.
lukeqsee 7y ago
I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to software developers). I would raise a few points it doesn't mention: - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the last one. - Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. - Positively, the outdoor culture in much of the country really helps you get out of your chair and outdoors. The natural beauty doesn't hurt. :-) Happy to answer any more questions if you have them—or I'm more than happy to connect if you're also in Switzerland!
- mywittyname 7y ago
  How was the process of obtaining a work visa / citizenship?
  - lukeqsee 7y ago
    It took me about 10 minutes at the local city hall. However, my wife is Swiss, so I'm very much an exception. If you don't have a familial connection, you need to find a job, and the company will need to prove they couldn't find a local Swiss resident/citizen that could have done the same job, so it's a bit harder to get in than Germany or other areas of the EU. Edit: I'm on a multi-year residency visa. I'll need to renew once more before I'm eligible for citizenship (after ~5 years).
    - vinay427 7y ago
      No, they need to prove that they can't find a Swiss/EU/EEA citizen (not necessarily a resident, just an applicant) that could do the same job. EU/EEA citizens are on par with Swiss citizens in every sector except for possibly civil service, at least for now, though referendums repeatedly seem to pass that would limit this freedom for both sides.
notus 7y ago
What about formal requirements? The software field in the US is known for not caring a whole lot about people's educational backgrounds as long as they can do the job. Is Switzerland the same or are degrees hard requirements?
- Galaxeblaffer 7y ago
  Maybe the companies don't care, but apparently the US government does. There's a hard requirement for H-1B, that the applicant hold at least a four-year bachelor’s degree in a relevant field or its equivalent, and will be employed in a position which requires such a degree.
  - ojbyrne 7y ago
    From uscis.gov: ‘Have education, training, or progressively responsible experience in the specialty that is equivalent to the completion of such a degree, and have recognition of expertise in the specialty through progressively responsible positions directly related to the specialty.’ https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-dod-cooperative-research-and-development-project-workers-and-fashion-models https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
  - notus 7y ago
    Well that's because the government is the government. They also automatically filter out applications that don't contain certain keywords which results in people turning in several page resumes full of keywords.
- lawl 7y ago
  > Is Switzerland the same or are degrees hard requirements? It's mixed. Some companies don't care, some do. In my experience, engineers usually don't care, HR sometimes does. So it's mostly getting past HR by playing bullshit bingo in your CV and list any tech you've ever heard of as 'intermediate' skill level so HR finds something when they Ctrl+F. Not sure about getting a work permit/visa though, it likely won't help not to have formal education.
vasili111 7y ago
1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? 2. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?
- hocuspocus 7y ago
  1. The path to citizenship is pretty long as an adult: https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/einbuergerung/ordentliche_einbuergerung.html https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/ein... But once you tick the boxes it's not particularly hard. 2. Very.
- Double_a_92 7y ago
  1. If you don't live in a bigger city forget it. You have to pass "inspection" on comunal, city and state level (in that order). And the people in small villages won't say yes unless you are maybe very active in local (drinking) clubs.
akhilcacharya 7y ago
> If you want to save on the premium and keep yourself healthy then you pick the 2500 franchise and pay as little as 300 CHF per month for healthcare insurance. That's..surprisingly expensive for someone that's not self-employed. I didn't think it would be that expensive. Meanwhile for me it's about $30 a month for my HSA employer plan with a lower deductible.
- gniv 7y ago
  Insurance is not linked to employment in Switzerland. You shop around. Employers might help defray the cost. I know at least one large employer who gives 400CHF/mo towards insurance ( on top of salary).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- dilyevsky 7y ago
  That and many other points are hilarious and shows clearly author doesn’t know what they are talking about. I have a family platinum ($0 deductible) kaiser hmo for much less money through my employer. These days even startups can beat that in sfbay. Point about swiss “diversity” is also funny
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    Yeah I don’t think it’s a favorable comparison point for SWEs.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Its actually closer to 400 per month, significant and mandatory payment. And so far it keeps rising every year (was 230CHF in 2010 for me). But its completely untied from employer, you find your own model and finance it yourself. Plus with this you have 2500 'franchise', meaning only after you pay 2500 CHF in given year, insurance kicks in. Lesser threshold costs obviously even more. For teeth care there is basically no usable public insurance, people just go across the border (or swallow the cost in case of emergency)
ElDji 7y ago
Please note that the labour market is regulated in Switzerland and that, depending on where you come from (especially outside EU), it may be difficult or impossible to obtain a work permit.
- lultimouomo 7y ago
  Is that different from Silicon Valley?
  - CalChris 7y ago
    You may be thinking of H1-B work visas. Those are capped but nationally rather than for Silicon Valley.
- david927 7y ago
  In other words, if you're American, it can be next to impossible to get a work visa.
jankotek 7y ago
Rent in Zurich is $4000 a month and that as an advantage? Is that a joke? Many workers in Switzerland commute daily from foreign countries to save money.
- izacus 7y ago
  $4000 for rent is not normal for Zurich, and a 25 minute comfortable train commute drops the rent significantly lower. Try getting a 25 minute commute in SV.
  - dilyevsky 7y ago
    That’s 25 min to hb? And then you have to change trains or take a tram or whatever. So not 25 mins Edit: 25 mins to 4th&kings get you as far as Hillsdale which is considerably cheaper too.
    - izacus 7y ago
      No, I mean 25 minutes to actual workplace.
  - 0xffff2 7y ago
    I have a 10 minute commute in the south bay and I "only" pay $2100/month. Rents in the bay area are excessive, but even so $4000 is excessive by bay area standards anywhere outside of SF proper.
- bitL 7y ago
  Doesn't France have some CERN enclave next to Swiss borders where people reside to avoid excessive costs of Switzerland, and then French tax authorities periodically trying to extract more money from them? I was told some stories by ex-CERN folks...
- malthaus 7y ago
  i live right next to google / zurich main station and pay 2300chf/month for a larger flat than mentioned in the article
krak12 7y ago
Go to Spain, same salary, free healthcare, better quality of life, better weather, no crunch culture, better social life (good luck making new friends on Switzerland), less taxes and the last nobel prize of literature was inspired meanwhile lived here like many others.
- amyjess 7y ago
  As a trans woman, Spain is also one of the only parts of Europe where hormones are easily accessible, so if I ended up having to live in Europe, no other country would be an option.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  > Go to Spain, same salary The difference is that in Switzerland you get paid that salary every month, not over the full year. (I’m exaggerating, but not that much.) Edit: by the way, the “less taxes” remark is also quite funny.
  - fookitty 7y ago
    You're totally exaggerating, been living in Spain for the past 10 years and previously worked in Switzerland, I often get job offers from Swiss companies and the difference is minimal.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      Either you are too lucky/unlucky and your experience is not typical or you think that a factor of two (at least) is minimal.
- tiagopc 7y ago
  > Same salary? That's funny! I lived in Spain before moving to Switzerland. Regarding "free healthcare" and "better weather, no crunch culture, better social life" yeah, I agree on that!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
kick 7y ago
The founder of Autodesk, John Walker, has written extensively on this topic since moving to Switzerland decades ago. https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/
- asdfman123 7y ago
  So I'm guessing it's not quite as easy to hire in Switzerland?
- ThePadawan 7y ago
  ...and then they closed their Swiss offices in 2017 [0]. [0] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-shut-neuchâtel-offices/43716966 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-shut...
  - kick 7y ago
    He no longer works at Autodesk.
loxs 7y ago
The price comparison reads like a joke from my $500 a month, 2 bedroom, nice neighbourhood apartment in Sofia, Bulgaria. Also, probably saving more money than I would in Switzerland. "If you are a Software Developer living in Europe then there is a better place for you - and this place is Switzerland." Ha-ha Yeah, it's probably not bad in Switzerland, just some of the arguments are really funny. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha
- rockinghigh 7y ago
  How are salaries in Bulgaria?
  - loxs 7y ago
    For a senior dev, anywhere in the range between 2 and 5k EUR net monthly (after taxes).
Maximus9000 7y ago
For cost of living comparisons, there's a great site for that: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&country2=United+States&city1=Zurich&city2=Mountain+View%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
delta1 7y ago
> In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF Is USD 2500 - USD 4000 supposed to be cheap?!
- prophetjohn 7y ago
  Yeah and that's for a 538 sqft apartment. I don't know the specifics of the San Francisco rental market, but you can easily beat $4k/mo for a studio in desirable parts of Manhattan, so I assume the same is true of SV
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    $3000 will get you a not bad one bedroom in a old building with rent control in SF, or in a new building in the burbs.
    - alteria 7y ago
      You can do $3k for a 1BR/studio in a new building? I've been seeing >$3,600 in Peninsula currently.
- arbie 7y ago
  In Silly Valley, yes.
  - qaq 7y ago
    4K is about Palo Alto territory.
- billfruit 7y ago
  In many Indian cities it is possible to find decent full appartments for about 150$ per month, not to mention the cheaper food and medical costs, and general costs of living.
- philsnow 7y ago
  50m^2 is about 534 sqft for comparison. I haven't looked at renting in SF in a long time but 2500-4000 CHF for that seems pretty high. You don't need to live in the city center though.
dominotw 7y ago
How is it better if the salaries are lower. I am tired of engineers should care about their "craft" above all else dictums. Software engineering is somehow more pure and innocent than evil finance ( for example). I would rather earn a lot in my prime and retire early to a place of my choosing.
- freehunter 7y ago
  There's a lot of people who care about more than just raw salary. I could get a higher salary in the Bay Area but my quality of life would drop substantially. It's not worth it. And although my paycheck would go up, my discretionary income would drop substantially as well. It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute time is 5x.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    >It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute time is 5x. It depends where you're coming from. If your current cost of living is $2000/month, your salary is $100,000/year and your commute is 10 minutes, your above ratios would lead to $200,000/year salary, $6000/month cost of living and 50 minutes commute in the Bay Area, increasing disposable income from $76k to $128k. Many people would happily trade the extra commute for the 60%+ increase in money to spend or save.
  - dominotw 7y ago
    >although my paycheck would go up, my discretionary income would drop substantially as well yes that won't meet my original criteria then > I would rather earn a lot in my prime and retire early to a place of my choosing. agree with this, this won't let me retire early > It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x
drawkbox 7y ago
The list seems like a dream, especially the healthcare part and the neutrality of the Swiss, not as extreme and divided. The housing, taxes and pay are icing on the cake. To top it off, Switzerland looks like a dreamland with all those amazing views.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  What housing do you mean? It is truly amazing here in many aspects, but housing is worse than rest of Europe. Rents are very high, you compete with many many people so any drawback on your resume (non-perfect job, kids, pets, coming from non-cool country) disqualifies you quickly. Houses/apartments are old, badly designed since there is little pressure to improve (people will come anyway). This is valid for biggest cities, some rural places might be better. This and taking care for the kids (Switzerland is ranked among the worst/most difficult places globally to have kids, can confirm) are biggest drawbacks. Still worth it, but definitely not for everyone.
  - drawkbox 7y ago
    Good to know on the housing. I guess it just sucks everywhere in terms of availability, quality and space in a good market location. SV is just as bad or worse. There has to be a way to fix that, how nice would it be for hot markets to have housing? The problem is hot markets for jobs/economy/investment are also hot markets for real estate rents. It sucks as a worker you have to live somewhat disheveled and less than you need or far away just to work in a good market. Remote working for the win where applicable.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  The housing If you have a shower or run a bath or do laundry in your apartment outside of the designated hours, your neighbours will complain to the landlord and you may be evicted. The Swiss are very, very fond of rules, and even fonder of enforcing them.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Source? Exaggerate much?
cfv 7y ago
A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations. Also, the culture is remarkably different, so if you're expecting something similar to the american college campus-like experience large companies offer over there you're in for a hell of a culture shock.
- s_dev 7y ago
  >It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss While Switzerland might not be strictly in the EU it is very much a grey area -- it is in some ways effectively in the EU so -- personally I'm Irish and pretty sure I could live and work in Switzerland tomorrow. I'm just pointing out you don't need to be Swiss to be on a level playing field. Worth nothing though as well Switzerland is often very hostile to employing US Passports in any financial firms (alot of finanical firms employe devs in SW) (as apposed to Americans they represent) -- laregely because of banking culture and FACTA.
- izacus 7y ago
  > A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations. These days it's significantly easier to get a Swiss passport than a US one for most nations.
- kgwgk 7y ago
  The difference between “kind of possible” and “more or less impossible” is the difference between 5 and 10 years of residence required to apply.
greatgib 7y ago
Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily earn over 100,000 CHF (1 CHF is around 1 USD) " So, that means that we can calculate your rent there to be between 30% to 48%. But I guess, just because it is in Switzerland, it should not be outrageous?
- config_yml 7y ago
  10 years ago, the rule was rent should not be more than 1/4 of your gross salary. The rule just gets adjusted, we're currently at 1/3. Same thing goes down with health care costs. People are squeezed for it, because they have no choice. Meanwhile wages are stagnating and can't keep up with the rising cost of living.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    Yep, so now the US government is providing the following helpful formula 33% of salary goes to taxes; 33% to housing and 33% to student loans. You better be good at budget because everything else must be covered by that 1%
  - CountSessine 7y ago
    Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want to throw more money in the fire? You can pay people however much you want, but without addressing the market dysfunctions all of those higher wages will wind up in the hands of landlords and health insurance companies.
    - 7y ago
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Not sure about the tax figures the UK is way more than 19% the base rate is 20 and at equivalent wages you will be in the higher band
aty268 7y ago
Few things: 1) Salaries are essentially capped at $120,000. 2) Stock options are very rare. Basically, you can't get rich. No different than working at Google but with lower salary potential. This is why Switzerland will never be the next SV.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  I’m pretty sure Google Zurich pays more than $120k.
  - mikkelam 7y ago
    According to https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm $131k/yr as avg base salary for software engineer and 173 for senior software engineer.
  - config_yml 7y ago
    Depends on the position of course, but they pay much less than in the US. If you want to rake in cash, don't go for a tech job. It's much easier to make > 200k in some random middle management position at a bank.
    - username90 7y ago
      > they pay much less than in the US Not in my experience, it is basically the same. You start at around $160K TC minimum as a junior and then it rises rapidly from there. Glassdoor doesn't have stock and bonus values for Switzerland which makes the salaries look much worse than they actually are.
- googlethrow 7y ago
  The total comp at Google Zürich starts at 160K chf/year for new grads. It can go much higher with counteroffers.
lormayna 7y ago
No one is mentioning that healthcare is not free (as in the other European country), but you must pay a very expensive insurance.
- hocuspocus 7y ago
  Insurance itself isn't very expensive compared to what you pay (through mandatory contributions) elsewhere in Europe. Deductibles are high and healthcare is expensive, and the overall fake competition and illusion of choice among private insurers is bullshit, I agree. But in absolute I'd pay a lot more in countries like France or Germany.
aripickar 7y ago
Like half of these are negatives, imo. 1) I've found places in the bay for way less than what they were saying, even without roommates. Its like 2k for a 1br in Lake Merritt, which is 15-20 minute BART to SF. 2) Yes startups that are pre-seed/ pre-series A will have crazy hours, but any big tech co. will be pretty close to 40 hours a week. My team is pretty big about work life balance, and we work at a place infamous for not caring about it. I generally work 9-5, with whatever wfh I want. 3) See point 1. Granted if you want a house, it'll be more/farther out, but apartments can still be had. 4) Money is better in the US. I currently make about 160k USD, which is more than pretty much any European Dev will make. 6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay 46 USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision, and dental. There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the bay area (expensive, local politics are fucked, everyone is a tech bro, etc), but some of these are a bit ridiculous and not very indicative. There's a reason why the bay area is a desired place to live, and why I personally am trying to move back there.
- opmac 7y ago
  > 6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay 46 USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision, and dental. You are the exception here, not the rule. 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare in the US. It's not uncommon for people to spend 500 USD per month, so 300 CHF would look good to many people. There is also the potential argument that the Swiss healthcare system is better overall than the US system, but that could be a complete debate in itself.
  - adventured 7y ago
    > 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare in the US. For a software developer (the subject of the post) it is not pretty rare. The median software developer is well over six figures in the US now for salary. Having your healthcare entirely or nearly entirely covered by your employer, is not unusual when you're over $100k.
  - j7ake 7y ago
    You also need to compare the amount you have to pay out of pocket before insurance kicks in. 300 CHF probably requires you to pay out of pocket around 2500 CHF before insurance kicks in.
fenk85 7y ago
That article lists income tax at 12.5% that is WRONG! that is the corporate tax rate Income tax in Ireland (including everything) is 20-30% below average ~EUR35K (tax credit dependant) about 50% above this point on every euro.
mistrial9 7y ago
my brilliant colleague went to Zurich for a year to work with finance people on math problems. He said that it was not the culture to mix socially, he liked to ride his road bike in the good weather, and basically, he worked the entire year without making any friends or being social. Then he left. It was expensive for him at the time (no details) even as a well-paid young math programmer, so it was not a big financial win. His french is not great, so that was also a problem. He did not recommend the experience.
- tiagopc 7y ago
  I agree with this one on some part. It will depend on the city. For Zurich, I agree with that but for Geneva, where I live, that does not apply. The cultural diversity here is way bigger when comparing to Zurich, the fact that a lot of international organizations (UN, Red Cross) are based here may help with that.
- ThePadawan 7y ago
  Can confirm - the local media will reprint the same articles every few months on how expats are moving away because the Swiss are too standoffish. And that includes Germans. I don't want to lean too heavily on the cliches, but if you come across cold even compared to Germans, surely that's a sign. Source: German expat, living in Switzerland since 2008.
  - monaghanboy 7y ago
    Can and do the expats just socialize with each other to mitigate the problem?
    - ThePadawan 7y ago
      Yes, they can and do. This of course leads to a societal enclave where even expats that would like to integrate into Swiss society find it harder and harder to do so. On the other hand, the more right-wing press and parties use them to point out the perceived lack of willing to integrate into society to further restrict immigration. I wouldn't describe this as a mitigation, more of an escalation.
d--b 7y ago
They have no shame. They went as far as praising Switzerland's diversity and inclusiveness... Come on... Healthcare may be the only reason, but you also have it everywhere else...
- rsync 7y ago
  "They went as far as praising Switzerland's diversity and inclusiveness... Come on..." As someone who owns a business in CH and visits there relatively frequently, I understand what you are saying, but I have two initial responses to you: 1) technically, CH is, in fact quite diverse in terms of population stats - especially Zurich and Geneva. I was surprised to look up and see that 25% of the population of CH is foreign born[1]. 2) That being said, to whatever degree CH is really, really homogeneous (and it definitely seems so as you travel outside Zurich/Geneva/Basel) isn't that a feature ? Isn't that the point of a Switzerland ? I don't want the entire world to be strip malls and walmarts - I enjoy local culture and diversity in nations. [1] https://www.thelocal.ch/20180831/foreign-residents-now-make-up-more-than-a-quarter-of-the-population-in-switzerland https://www.thelocal.ch/20180831/foreign-residents-now-make-...
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  Switzerland is extremely diverse. There are four official languages, and 20+% of the population is foreign-born. In Zurich, that rate is much higher.
  - jupp0r 7y ago
    That's like saying Texas is extremely liberal. Moving to most places in Switzerland that are not Zurich, Bern or Geneva will yield a similar experience as moving to non-Austin Texas.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      Most people don't live in the rural areas you're emphasizing. If you exclude cities, the US begins to look pretty homogeneous too. One out of five people living in Switzerland weren't born in the country. There are three major languages, plus a fourth national language. By any reasonable measure, Switzerland is an extremely diverse country. The amazing thing is that a country that's so linguistically balkanised is so stable and orderly.
aantix 7y ago
If you're single or a couple dating, love tech, move to SV. Don't deprive yourself of that experience. Hire a professional relocator to find your apartment. That's what we did. Company paid for it. Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" - from tech to processes to politics. You can attend all sorts of product launch parties, meetups, company socializers. So many that it's impossible to go to them all. You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you read from on HN. Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just tweet at them and ask. I've never regretted those years. The financial line gets much blurrier when we started having a family, along with the SF school system isn't that great. But for tech culture, it was one of a kind. So. Much. Tech. And I loved every moment of it.
- rsync 7y ago
  "Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" - from tech to processes to politics. ... You can attend all sorts of product launch parties, meetups, company socializers. So many that it's impossible to go to them all. ... You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you read from on HN. Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just tweet at them and ask." I live in the SFBA for reasons other than tech/career but this has been a huge plus. It's very interesting and exciting to visit the major tech HQs and meet founders and engineers living and working here, etc. My favorite example of this was last year, 2018, when Twilio Signal was coincident with Litquake. I stayed in the city all week and talked shop with Twilio folks all day and went to talks/lectures about the evils of technology every evening :)
bitL 7y ago
Somewhere at the bottom of the site with very small letters: * requires German C1-level or better
jeffrallen 7y ago
I am a Swiss-American programmer who has worked in California and also in Switzerland, and this is all accurate.
gok 7y ago
> Companies that offer stock options are generally rare Missed opportunity, given that capital gains in Switzerland are tax-free. On that note, the tax rate in the bar chart is for corporate taxes, not personal taxes. Swiss taxes are low but not that low [1]; the average worker burden is around 22%. [1] https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision-of-the-Tax-Burden-on-Labor-in-the-OECD-2018.pdf https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision...
error265 7y ago
Moving their in 20 days. (software engineer from London). In my opinion there is less opportunities there (In Switzerland) higher starting salary, then people get stuck in the middle 120-140, and can't shift past. (for the reasons mentioned below). Because managers don't want to pay developers more than themselves. HOWEVER, that same problem exists in London, but is typically solved by developers going day-rate contract. That way management can justify and still get experience. Because the market is smaller in Switzerland it does not make it so easy for a day-rate contractor market to exist.. So, my point is, if Switzerland is better than London for developers on a global level. Its only marginal. But compared to other salaries, Doctors, Dentists Lawyers, Engineers etc. Developers in London are well paid (treated as technical roles similar to those mentioned) Whereas in Switzerland developers are paid half++ of those jobs.
- rahilb 7y ago
  I have seen some day rate contracts in Zurich at astronomical rates, if you don't mind working for a Big Bank. One of them even offered expensed flights, hotel accommodation and a (substantial) per diem! J2EE isn't the bleeding edge but it can keep the lights on.
hc91 7y ago
I call bullshit on this article. Ah and by the way - the bulk of the article contents start after the following sentence: "There are 8 reasons why I personally find Switzerland much better for the fellow Software Engineer: [...]" This is a PERSONAL OPINION of some random guy.
rockinghigh 7y ago
Zurich’s strength is also that it’s centrally located in Europe, within 1-2 hours of France, Germany, and Italy and close to mountains for skiing. There are also some serious negatives ignored in the article. First, weather is a lot worse than in California. It’s wet and cold. Second, they speak Swiss German, which means all administrative forms are in that language. Most people will speak English, at least in a business setting but it’s not as easy as in London or even Amsterdam. If you have kids they will grow up speaking German. Another negative is the price of food and restaurants and the lack of food diversity.
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  > Second, they speak Swiss German, which means all administrative forms are in that language. All government forms are in (High/Schrift) German, French, and Italian. > lack of food diversity. This is certainly true.
danhanlon 7y ago
The tax section is incredibly misleading. For Ireland, the 12.5% tax rate is corporation tax, not for individuals. The effective income tax rate in Ireland for dev level salaries is 40%+, after a point your marginal tax rate becomes 52%. Quickly looking into it, all the tax rates look like the corporation tax. The graph is blatantly wrong across the board.
gregkerzhner 7y ago
After reading this article, here is my advice to a developer in the Bay Area 1. Definitely don't move to Switzerland. Your cost of living will be very similar, you will have to work more than 40 hours a week, and your salary will go down. 2. Move literally anywhere else in the USA. I live in Boulder, Colorado and its awesome. Mountains and trails out my door with a great city scene as well. People snob at Boulder because its getting expensive, but you can still rent a 1 bedroom for 1300, and get a room in a house for $800. Google, Twitter and Uber are here if you want FAANG level compensation, as well as a bunch of other small companies. 3. Or better yet, get a remote job and move to somewhere even cheaper. I work remotely and it was really hard not to move to Bend, Oregon. I could have bought a nice house there for what I paid for my small townhome in Boulder. The only reason I didn't do it is because I am a fanatic rock climber and the climbing around Boulder is better. One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work 35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at 8am, and then be free by 3pm. The Swiss 9 to 6 is a hard sell with this lifestyle.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  >One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work 35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at 8am, and then be free by 3pm This is highly individual. My company lets me work remote whenever and as much as I want. I still spend the vast majority of my time in the office because I'm far less productive when working from home.
  - armandososa 7y ago
    I've been working remotely for twelve years now and I think that today I wouldn't be able to write a single line of code in a crowded space with other people.
    - 7y ago
IdontRememberIt 7y ago
Switzerland is a complex system: instead of 1 high rate tax, you pay many low taxes. So cheating is not worth it individually (too risky/complex for a small saving). But the sum is crazy. Exemple of taxes/mandatory ccharges a developper will pay: network tax, photocopy tax, radio tax, VAT, AHV/IV, garbage elimination tax, city tax, state tax, federal tax, healthcare (in some countries it is included in your "federal/state" tax), etc. I just got my "final tax decision"... Switzerland is a fiscal inferno if your income comes from work (vs capital gain)... Usually, I work 6 month per year for taxes. My grand parents were working 1 to 1.5 month in the 60s-70s to pay their taxes also as "independant". Plus with all the crazy fix and variable costs, it is not competitive as an independant or small company. Today, as a "personne morale" (corporation) only complex fiscally optimized structures can get a low tax rate (or as a "physical person" if you are ultra rich (3 comma club) not professionally active in the country you can negotiate a very low rate). PS: also, can we definitively kill the ridiculous myth/reputation of Swiss data protection? (In case of criminal investigation, in many cantons (equivalent to states) a police investigator does not even need a judge warrant to have access to the data)
- ElDji 7y ago
  > Usually, I work 6 month per year for taxes. Having worked as freelance in switzerland, that sound weird and make me thing : "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
  - IdontRememberIt 7y ago
    Each situation is different and depends on an infinity of parameters (for exemple do not forget that a married couple pays more taxes than two individuals). Income city+state+federal (30%), VAT (7,6%), AHV (11%) + all the rest I have lost count of. For exemple, I pay 2,7% for PCI (Family allowance tax). I have a very good revenue by Swiss standard. Everything from work, nothing from capital gain. - I work in Romandie where personal tax a waaaay higher than in Swiss Germany and I am not in the best city... - I do not count 2nd pilier as it is a "capitalisation" system and not "redistribution" (AHV). But are also mandatory insurances. Also, the revenue you will get at retirement is shrinking (due to life expectancy and negative rates) and is forecasted to even decrease in the future. - Do not forget that Federal tax is not linear... PS: Fun fact. Almost all successful French tennis players have lived in Switzerland a few years because they could negociate their taxes. Roger Federer or Wawrinka who have done a lot for a positive image of Switzerland had to pay full rate... PS2: Company tax system is under total renovation now (because of pressure from Europe). I can imaging that personal tax will follow in the coming decades.
TomVDB 7y ago
From what I've heard from a Swiss friend who moved back from SV with an American spouse: even after correcting for COL, it's a major loss of income. In SV, engineers are at the top of the money food chain, in Zurich, it's bankers.
mrep 7y ago
Wow, talk about making me not want to move to Switzerland. Granted, I'm not in the bay area but... 1. Accommodation prices seem about the same where I live. 2. I work 40 hours a week too 3. 20 minute bus ride for me so no "2 hour commute". 4. 120,000 CHF for a senior? I make over 200,000 and I have less than 4 years of experience. That would be a huge pay cut. 5. 35% income taxes + state? This is just blatantly false as effective federal income tax rate doesn't hit 35% until over a million. I for example paid just 22% in federal income taxes including social security and medicare. 6. My biweekly copay is just $50. Granted, I am on a high deductible plan but the deductible is only 1300 with a max out of pocket limit of 2600 a year and I have a health savings account which allows me to save/invest 100% tax free income for health care spending.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
IdontRememberIt 7y ago
Because of FATCA, if you are a US person, do not underestimate the consequences (costs, admin complexity) of the IRS regulation following you abroad.
RocketSyntax 7y ago
Swiss babes
- RocketSyntax 7y ago
  ^ 1 person doesn't like Swiss women.
agounaris 7y ago
Sorry people but Switzerland is boring and hard to integrate! It's nice for specific types of people who enjoy elitism and time-boxing. I will be always surprised by how fast people vanish once the stores are closed...early in the afternoon.
lacker 7y ago
The problem is, the salaries in Switzerland are terrible for good software engineers. This page says 120,000 CHF for 5 years of experience. That's around $120,000 USD. At Google, someone with that much experience is at least an L5. According to https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ in the Silicon Valley region that gets you total comp of $360,000. Yeah, not everyone is making Google money. But a lot of software engineers around here are, or they will be at some point during their career.
- hocuspocus 7y ago
  An L5 at Google Zurich will earn almost the same as one in Mountain View, pay less taxes and have more vacation. Sure there are more high paying jobs in the Bay Area, but there are also lots of start-ups that pay pretty average salaries plus monopoly money that make the total compensation look good on paper. Assuming everyone will eventually be in the top 10% is silly.
atopuzov 7y ago
Could be worse, you could be living in Dublin, Ireland where it's in the 50% range for damp cold mouldy apartments.
ivanche 7y ago
I know I'm repeating myself, but this should've been a static page - instead if you want to see anything you must enable 3 scripts and 2 XHR. Why, just why?
blunte 7y ago
This seems like just any old other "10 reasons for X" or whatever - blog fluff to help raise a brand. Rather than spend a lot of HN intellectual energy on it, we probably should have just passed it by... That's not to say there aren't some really attractive reasons to be in Switzerland, but trying to compare it to SV is rather pointless (or too broad or too open to disagreement about which metrics matter, etc.).
kiterunner2346 7y ago
FWIW the women of Switzerland are IMO a bit easier on the eye than those of Silicon Valley: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swiss+women&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swiss+women&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+women&ia=images&iax=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+women&ia=images&iax... (OK, OK it's a tough contest: So flip a coin if this is your deciding factor!)
rStar 7y ago
Weather and access to nature in Silicon Valley is optimal for humans. The driving is also great. If you have an actual building to live in the Redwood City to Mountain View corridor, it’s a fairly amazing life.
joelbluminator 7y ago
I think it boils down to which culture you like more, American or European. Both have their pros and cons. The American way of life is characterised by more stress, more inequality, perhaps a bit more ambition (for professionals). Less holidays, less calm and perhaps a bit less care free. U.S will generally pay you more. On Average, the average American is less happy than the average Swiss by many measurements.
madhadron 7y ago
I used to live in Switzerland, so maybe we can mention some of the downsides. It's racist. Really racist. If you're white, no one's going to hassle you to see your papers. If you're not, keep them with you. Expect to meet hostility in shops and markets and get quoted different prices than white people. Those 25% immigrants the article mentions? Mostly European, and many of those aren't immigrants. They were born and raised in Switzerland, but are still considered immigrants. It's rigid. I'm not sure I want my children going to school in a system where using the wrong color pen is penalized comparably to getting the answer wrong.
dzonga 7y ago
The country, I would really want to emigrate to is Portgual. lots of sun, low cost of living. but it seems there's no tech jobs there and they pay poorly. I'm not seeking SV money, either but more like mid city US money in the range of 50-75k EUR for a mid level engineer
- jxub 7y ago
  Sadly in Portugal 30-40k€ seem to be the top of the market. In spite of that relatively low number, it still buys a high living standard.
mips_avatar 7y ago
European tech companies always trumpet free healthcare. But if you work at a top tech company in the US you don't pay for healthcare either, and the wait times for service are better.
ThePadawan 7y ago
Sure. Now name any Swiss company that makes software that you heard of before. I'll wait. Switzerland is eager to compare itself to Silicon Valley as a center for education and innovation, but I have lived here for 11 years and I can tell you that that comparison is utter horse shit. Why? Because Switzerland, as a tiny neutral country, most of all lacks ambition. You can't make it as a small company with lots of ideas. You couldn't pay the salaries for talent - the talent can earn double or triple working in private banking, insurance of big pharma. Or maybe the talent already moved away since very few companies can afford to even open offices in Switzerland, or if they do, they are sales only. Google, Microsoft and IBM are the biggest exceptions in the Zurich area.
neonate 7y ago
"Silicon Valley is dead for Software Developers"? Nobody goes there anymore it's too crowded.
Wh1skey 7y ago
Ireland is looking really nice now
s3nnyy 7y ago
Tech recruiter in Zurich here. I run https://coderfit.com https://coderfit.com and connect programmers with jobs in Zurich for a living. (I programmed for money before, so I know the market from many sites.) Taxes are low, salaries high and things costs less than one thinks. Yet, the biggest downsite here is the lack of jobs. Zurich has only ~350.000 inhabitants and hence it can't have the same number of opportunities like London, NYC or the Bay Area. That leads to a high variance in pay. I have seen people being underpaid at 85k CHF a year as a senior developer and then going to 120k CHF just by changing companies but doing essentially the same work.
kmarc 7y ago
Many of the comments here insist on housing prices. I'm a Zurich local for the 7th year and would like to put this into perspective. Sharing a flat here is something many younger single people do, but even for the older generation is not a taboo (my friend shared a flat with a single mother and her kid for a couple years). I myself share an enormous modern penthouse-like apartment on a top of a building, at a good and quiet location in Zurich. I wanted to have flatmates (winters are dark and boring here :-) ) and one of the side effects is the cost saving. I never lived in bigger luxury, yet I pay 10% of my monthly income for the rent. Public transportation is affordable, fast, clean, and again, in contrast to the US, not looked down on. A manager in the bank sits next to the paintshop worker on the bus and this is completely fine. I have lived outskirts too, yet never had more than 30min commute. Life might seem inconvenient here (bikes preferred over cars, young people share flats instead of their own kingdom, 2-3x more $$$ for a restaurant dinner, etc), however, all these facts also contribute to better physiological and mental health. It's not for everyone thou, YMMV, etc. On the SWEng side, it's a whole different question. Less competitive environment, less cool bubble projects, no Juicero-like promises to get superrich superfast. (Although this might also one of the factors for a better mental health ;-) )
amai 7y ago
What about vacation days and parental leave possibilities?
Grzegrzolka 7y ago
Meanwhile I pay 20 euro for 1Gbps in Poland and I work remotely for company in New York.

238 points by Varqu 7y ago

zerr 7y ago

Cons: no Sun and the salaries seem to be capped at CHF 120-140K. Has that old school European mindset that managers and MBAs should be paid more than individual contributors, engineers.

lukeqsee 7y ago
> no Sun Only in the winter. :) The other points hold as far as my experience goes.
- fla 7y ago
  Not true, there's a ton of sun in the mountains above the clouds.
  - lukeqsee 7y ago
    Well, yes. I would say most developers can't go to their nearest 2500m peak and work for the day, though. :)
    - noncoml 7y ago
      He was trying to make a joke..
dijit 7y ago
Lots of Sun, but maybe not as much as Southern California. San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads for 180K CHF and that doesn't count stock options which is usually the bulk of compensation at the high end. Not sure about the MBA vs IC thing though.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  > San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). Used to be true, but less and less given climate change
- house9-2 7y ago
  > San Francisco is famously non-sunny (all that cloud). San Francisco is on a peninsula, so it gets lots of fog. Its weather pattern does not represent the area in general. San Jose is further inland and very sunny most of the year. Today SF high will be 66F and San Jose 75F; big difference but in either case its mid-October and still t-shirt weather.
- tiagopc 7y ago
  > Salaries are certainly not capped at 140k CHF, I've seen a number of job ads for 180K CHF Are you speaking about CH or USA? Because in CH it pretty much seems to be capped at 140k CHF and below. Unless you are speaking of a very specific role/technology stack.
  - dijit 7y ago
    I was applying for roles recently that were as high as 180K CHF (and that wasn't FAANG).
    - config_yml 7y ago
      Can you share some company names? Seems rare
      - dijit 7y ago
        One I applied for recently was dacadoo[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacadoo
- peferron 7y ago
  Zurich (which is mentioned in the article) sees ~1,500 hours of sunshine a year [1]. That's absolutely horrendous and not "lots of sun" by any measure. I grew up in a place in France that gets slightly more sun than Zurich. I now live in the Bay Area Peninsula with 3,000+ hours of sunshine a year and the difference is incredible, especially in winter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_dur...
notus 7y ago
That mindset is definitely not exclusive to Europe, almost every country on the planet thinks managers and MBA's should be paid more than individual contributors. It's only a very recent trend in the US that it started to change.
- api 7y ago
  ... and only in parts of the US. Historically compensation tends to be tied to age/seniority and hierarchical status, not contribution per se.
tiborsaas 7y ago
They still have the highest salaries in Europe. Anybody moving there from another European country would see those salaries as pretty awesome. I don't care what managers and MBA-s make until I can make an awesome living. I'm not more special.
- point78 7y ago
  Also most expensive place to live in europe
  - tiborsaas 7y ago
    I did the math, still worth it by far.
- holstvoogd 7y ago
  Exactly. I would make double what I make now in the Netherlands. That being said, everything is 2 to 3 times more expensive there. That might well be worth it given the quality of life you get there.
- cstpdk 7y ago
  Copenhagen has about the same salary ranges as quoted in the article. Taxes are a higher, but healthcare is free and foreigners can get 3years of 25% flat tax rate if you get a tech job (based purely on income, I think). Living costs are lower than Switzerland, I rent 100sqm for about 1900EUR. Good cheese is more readily available in Switzerland though
i_am_proteus 7y ago
Not only does Switzerland have a Sun, it has the same Sun as California, just on a slightly different schedule.
- krak12 7y ago
  Like appearing once every 6 months
- dls2016 7y ago
  The cosine function would like to have a word with you...
- microtherion 7y ago
  Just keep in mind the geography. Zürich is roughly as far north as Seattle, while San Francisco is a bit further south than Athens.
config_yml 7y ago
This is my experience as well. Even with > 10 years experience, it's hard to find engineering jobs paying > 120k. > In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF and if you are single and open to living with other people you can find a room in something called Wohngemeinde for as little as 800-1000 CHF. Good luck if you have a family, it's ~4k for 4.5 rooms (100sqm). Check the listings on the website, most of them cap out at 10k/month. That is gross, pre-tax. So net is about 8k max. > Maybe it is because of the crunch work culture that squeezes out everything out of employees and only gives a payout to founders and VCs? This is no different in Switzerland.
- dt3ft 7y ago
  I know at least 6 other devs (backend, frontend, mobile) who work in Zurich that don't make it past 110k with 5+ years of experience.
- microtherion 7y ago
  >> In Zurich, [...] you can find a room in something called Wohngemeinde This was an error in the original article, by the way. The correct word is "Wohngemeinschaft". "Wohngemeinde" means "city/town/village you're residing in". > Good luck if you have a family, it's ~4k for 4.5 rooms (100sqm). Well, yes and no. Rents can be quite high for new arrivals. But about 20% of rental apartments in Zürich are owned by non-profit Wohnbaugenossenschaften, where rents are a lot cheaper, rise very modestly, and as long as you're on good standing, you pretty much never get kicked out, but you need to get onto a waiting list for a number of months/years.
aty268 7y ago
The capped salary is a really big deal.
amyjess 7y ago
> Cons: no Sun That's a pro to me. I'm happiest when it's cool and cloudy, and everything to do with the sun is just brutally oppressive and makes it hard to get anything done.
googlethrow 7y ago
At Google Zürich the total comp starts at 160K chf/year for fresh grads and with counteroffers can go much higher.
- dt3ft 7y ago
  What would the number be for an Interaction Designer?
lm28469 7y ago
> that old school European mindset Not sure in what kind of bubble you live but it's like that everywhere except if you're a tech engineer in a SV tech company.

lukeqsee 7y ago

I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to software developers). I would raise a few points it doesn't mention: - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of the region), expect any meetups to be irregular and if you don't go to the next one, it might be the last one. - Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. - Positively, the outdoor culture in much of the country really helps you get out of your chair and outdoors. The natural beauty doesn't hurt. :-) Happy to answer any more questions if you have them—or I'm more than happy to connect if you're also in Switzerland!

mywittyname 7y ago
How was the process of obtaining a work visa / citizenship?
- lukeqsee 7y ago
  It took me about 10 minutes at the local city hall. However, my wife is Swiss, so I'm very much an exception. If you don't have a familial connection, you need to find a job, and the company will need to prove they couldn't find a local Swiss resident/citizen that could have done the same job, so it's a bit harder to get in than Germany or other areas of the EU. Edit: I'm on a multi-year residency visa. I'll need to renew once more before I'm eligible for citizenship (after ~5 years).
  - vinay427 7y ago
    No, they need to prove that they can't find a Swiss/EU/EEA citizen (not necessarily a resident, just an applicant) that could do the same job. EU/EEA citizens are on par with Swiss citizens in every sector except for possibly civil service, at least for now, though referendums repeatedly seem to pass that would limit this freedom for both sides.

notus 7y ago

What about formal requirements? The software field in the US is known for not caring a whole lot about people's educational backgrounds as long as they can do the job. Is Switzerland the same or are degrees hard requirements?

Galaxeblaffer 7y ago
Maybe the companies don't care, but apparently the US government does. There's a hard requirement for H-1B, that the applicant hold at least a four-year bachelor’s degree in a relevant field or its equivalent, and will be employed in a position which requires such a degree.
- ojbyrne 7y ago
  From uscis.gov: ‘Have education, training, or progressively responsible experience in the specialty that is equivalent to the completion of such a degree, and have recognition of expertise in the specialty through progressively responsible positions directly related to the specialty.’ https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-dod-cooperative-research-and-development-project-workers-and-fashion-models https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
- notus 7y ago
  Well that's because the government is the government. They also automatically filter out applications that don't contain certain keywords which results in people turning in several page resumes full of keywords.
lawl 7y ago
> Is Switzerland the same or are degrees hard requirements? It's mixed. Some companies don't care, some do. In my experience, engineers usually don't care, HR sometimes does. So it's mostly getting past HR by playing bullshit bingo in your CV and list any tech you've ever heard of as 'intermediate' skill level so HR finds something when they Ctrl+F. Not sure about getting a work permit/visa though, it likely won't help not to have formal education.

vasili111 7y ago

1. How easy/difficult to get Switzerland citizenship if you live and work there? 2. How popular is English language is in Switzerland IT companies?

hocuspocus 7y ago
1. The path to citizenship is pretty long as an adult: https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/einbuergerung/ordentliche_einbuergerung.html https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht/ein... But once you tick the boxes it's not particularly hard. 2. Very.
Double_a_92 7y ago
1. If you don't live in a bigger city forget it. You have to pass "inspection" on comunal, city and state level (in that order). And the people in small villages won't say yes unless you are maybe very active in local (drinking) clubs.

akhilcacharya 7y ago

> If you want to save on the premium and keep yourself healthy then you pick the 2500 franchise and pay as little as 300 CHF per month for healthcare insurance. That's..surprisingly expensive for someone that's not self-employed. I didn't think it would be that expensive. Meanwhile for me it's about $30 a month for my HSA employer plan with a lower deductible.

gniv 7y ago
Insurance is not linked to employment in Switzerland. You shop around. Employers might help defray the cost. I know at least one large employer who gives 400CHF/mo towards insurance ( on top of salary).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dilyevsky 7y ago
That and many other points are hilarious and shows clearly author doesn’t know what they are talking about. I have a family platinum ($0 deductible) kaiser hmo for much less money through my employer. These days even startups can beat that in sfbay. Point about swiss “diversity” is also funny
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  Yeah I don’t think it’s a favorable comparison point for SWEs.
saiya-jin 7y ago
Its actually closer to 400 per month, significant and mandatory payment. And so far it keeps rising every year (was 230CHF in 2010 for me). But its completely untied from employer, you find your own model and finance it yourself. Plus with this you have 2500 'franchise', meaning only after you pay 2500 CHF in given year, insurance kicks in. Lesser threshold costs obviously even more. For teeth care there is basically no usable public insurance, people just go across the border (or swallow the cost in case of emergency)

ElDji 7y ago

Please note that the labour market is regulated in Switzerland and that, depending on where you come from (especially outside EU), it may be difficult or impossible to obtain a work permit.

lultimouomo 7y ago
Is that different from Silicon Valley?
- CalChris 7y ago
  You may be thinking of H1-B work visas. Those are capped but nationally rather than for Silicon Valley.
david927 7y ago
In other words, if you're American, it can be next to impossible to get a work visa.

jankotek 7y ago

Rent in Zurich is $4000 a month and that as an advantage? Is that a joke? Many workers in Switzerland commute daily from foreign countries to save money.

izacus 7y ago
$4000 for rent is not normal for Zurich, and a 25 minute comfortable train commute drops the rent significantly lower. Try getting a 25 minute commute in SV.
- dilyevsky 7y ago
  That’s 25 min to hb? And then you have to change trains or take a tram or whatever. So not 25 mins Edit: 25 mins to 4th&kings get you as far as Hillsdale which is considerably cheaper too.
  - izacus 7y ago
    No, I mean 25 minutes to actual workplace.
- 0xffff2 7y ago
  I have a 10 minute commute in the south bay and I "only" pay $2100/month. Rents in the bay area are excessive, but even so $4000 is excessive by bay area standards anywhere outside of SF proper.
bitL 7y ago
Doesn't France have some CERN enclave next to Swiss borders where people reside to avoid excessive costs of Switzerland, and then French tax authorities periodically trying to extract more money from them? I was told some stories by ex-CERN folks...
malthaus 7y ago
i live right next to google / zurich main station and pay 2300chf/month for a larger flat than mentioned in the article

krak12 7y ago

Go to Spain, same salary, free healthcare, better quality of life, better weather, no crunch culture, better social life (good luck making new friends on Switzerland), less taxes and the last nobel prize of literature was inspired meanwhile lived here like many others.

amyjess 7y ago
As a trans woman, Spain is also one of the only parts of Europe where hormones are easily accessible, so if I ended up having to live in Europe, no other country would be an option.
kgwgk 7y ago
> Go to Spain, same salary The difference is that in Switzerland you get paid that salary every month, not over the full year. (I’m exaggerating, but not that much.) Edit: by the way, the “less taxes” remark is also quite funny.
- fookitty 7y ago
  You're totally exaggerating, been living in Spain for the past 10 years and previously worked in Switzerland, I often get job offers from Swiss companies and the difference is minimal.
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    Either you are too lucky/unlucky and your experience is not typical or you think that a factor of two (at least) is minimal.
tiagopc 7y ago
> Same salary? That's funny! I lived in Spain before moving to Switzerland. Regarding "free healthcare" and "better weather, no crunch culture, better social life" yeah, I agree on that!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

kick 7y ago

The founder of Autodesk, John Walker, has written extensively on this topic since moving to Switzerland decades ago. https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pourquoi_la_suisse/

asdfman123 7y ago
So I'm guessing it's not quite as easy to hire in Switzerland?
ThePadawan 7y ago
...and then they closed their Swiss offices in 2017 [0]. [0] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-shut-neuchâtel-offices/43716966 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/software-shock_autodesk-to-shut...
- kick 7y ago
  He no longer works at Autodesk.

loxs 7y ago

The price comparison reads like a joke from my $500 a month, 2 bedroom, nice neighbourhood apartment in Sofia, Bulgaria. Also, probably saving more money than I would in Switzerland. "If you are a Software Developer living in Europe then there is a better place for you - and this place is Switzerland." Ha-ha Yeah, it's probably not bad in Switzerland, just some of the arguments are really funny. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitosha

rockinghigh 7y ago
How are salaries in Bulgaria?
- loxs 7y ago
  For a senior dev, anywhere in the range between 2 and 5k EUR net monthly (after taxes).

Maximus9000 7y ago

For cost of living comparisons, there's a great site for that: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&country2=United+States&city1=Zurich&city2=Mountain+View%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

delta1 7y ago

> In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF Is USD 2500 - USD 4000 supposed to be cheap?!

prophetjohn 7y ago
Yeah and that's for a 538 sqft apartment. I don't know the specifics of the San Francisco rental market, but you can easily beat $4k/mo for a studio in desirable parts of Manhattan, so I assume the same is true of SV
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  $3000 will get you a not bad one bedroom in a old building with rent control in SF, or in a new building in the burbs.
  - alteria 7y ago
    You can do $3k for a 1BR/studio in a new building? I've been seeing >$3,600 in Peninsula currently.
arbie 7y ago
In Silly Valley, yes.
- qaq 7y ago
  4K is about Palo Alto territory.
billfruit 7y ago
In many Indian cities it is possible to find decent full appartments for about 150$ per month, not to mention the cheaper food and medical costs, and general costs of living.
philsnow 7y ago
50m^2 is about 534 sqft for comparison. I haven't looked at renting in SF in a long time but 2500-4000 CHF for that seems pretty high. You don't need to live in the city center though.

dominotw 7y ago

How is it better if the salaries are lower. I am tired of engineers should care about their "craft" above all else dictums. Software engineering is somehow more pure and innocent than evil finance ( for example). I would rather earn a lot in my prime and retire early to a place of my choosing.

freehunter 7y ago
There's a lot of people who care about more than just raw salary. I could get a higher salary in the Bay Area but my quality of life would drop substantially. It's not worth it. And although my paycheck would go up, my discretionary income would drop substantially as well. It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute time is 5x.
- logicchains 7y ago
  >It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x and my commute time is 5x. It depends where you're coming from. If your current cost of living is $2000/month, your salary is $100,000/year and your commute is 10 minutes, your above ratios would lead to $200,000/year salary, $6000/month cost of living and 50 minutes commute in the Bay Area, increasing disposable income from $76k to $128k. Many people would happily trade the extra commute for the 60%+ increase in money to spend or save.
- dominotw 7y ago
  >although my paycheck would go up, my discretionary income would drop substantially as well yes that won't meet my original criteria then > I would rather earn a lot in my prime and retire early to a place of my choosing. agree with this, this won't let me retire early > It doesn't matter if I get paid 2x if my cost of living is 3x

drawkbox 7y ago

The list seems like a dream, especially the healthcare part and the neutrality of the Swiss, not as extreme and divided. The housing, taxes and pay are icing on the cake. To top it off, Switzerland looks like a dreamland with all those amazing views.

saiya-jin 7y ago
What housing do you mean? It is truly amazing here in many aspects, but housing is worse than rest of Europe. Rents are very high, you compete with many many people so any drawback on your resume (non-perfect job, kids, pets, coming from non-cool country) disqualifies you quickly. Houses/apartments are old, badly designed since there is little pressure to improve (people will come anyway). This is valid for biggest cities, some rural places might be better. This and taking care for the kids (Switzerland is ranked among the worst/most difficult places globally to have kids, can confirm) are biggest drawbacks. Still worth it, but definitely not for everyone.
- drawkbox 7y ago
  Good to know on the housing. I guess it just sucks everywhere in terms of availability, quality and space in a good market location. SV is just as bad or worse. There has to be a way to fix that, how nice would it be for hot markets to have housing? The problem is hot markets for jobs/economy/investment are also hot markets for real estate rents. It sucks as a worker you have to live somewhat disheveled and less than you need or far away just to work in a good market. Remote working for the win where applicable.
goatinaboat 7y ago
The housing If you have a shower or run a bath or do laundry in your apartment outside of the designated hours, your neighbours will complain to the landlord and you may be evicted. The Swiss are very, very fond of rules, and even fonder of enforcing them.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Source? Exaggerate much?

cfv 7y ago

A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations. Also, the culture is remarkably different, so if you're expecting something similar to the american college campus-like experience large companies offer over there you're in for a hell of a culture shock.

s_dev 7y ago
>It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss While Switzerland might not be strictly in the EU it is very much a grey area -- it is in some ways effectively in the EU so -- personally I'm Irish and pretty sure I could live and work in Switzerland tomorrow. I'm just pointing out you don't need to be Swiss to be on a level playing field. Worth nothing though as well Switzerland is often very hostile to employing US Passports in any financial firms (alot of finanical firms employe devs in SW) (as apposed to Americans they represent) -- laregely because of banking culture and FACTA.
izacus 7y ago
> A maybe minor point: It's more or less impossible to become a Swiss if you aren't already whereas it's kind of possible to become an American. If your company makes it it's entirely possible this can become a problem down the line, for instance regarding your tax status or rights and obligations. These days it's significantly easier to get a Swiss passport than a US one for most nations.
kgwgk 7y ago
The difference between “kind of possible” and “more or less impossible” is the difference between 5 and 10 years of residence required to apply.

greatgib 7y ago

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily earn over 100,000 CHF (1 CHF is around 1 USD) " So, that means that we can calculate your rent there to be between 30% to 48%. But I guess, just because it is in Switzerland, it should not be outrageous?

config_yml 7y ago
10 years ago, the rule was rent should not be more than 1/4 of your gross salary. The rule just gets adjusted, we're currently at 1/3. Same thing goes down with health care costs. People are squeezed for it, because they have no choice. Meanwhile wages are stagnating and can't keep up with the rising cost of living.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  Yep, so now the US government is providing the following helpful formula 33% of salary goes to taxes; 33% to housing and 33% to student loans. You better be good at budget because everything else must be covered by that 1%
- CountSessine 7y ago
  Why should wages go up to match outrageous expenses? People are being squeezed, but your pay is roughly correlated with the value of your labour. I hear this all the time in Vancouver - people blaming this squeeze on stagnant wages - as if the labour market could ever pay people enough to keep pace with supply-constrained, monopolistic markets. The rent is too damn high. And we know why, but ... somehow we just want to throw more money in the fire? You can pay people however much you want, but without addressing the market dysfunctions all of those higher wages will wind up in the hands of landlords and health insurance companies.
  - 7y ago

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Not sure about the tax figures the UK is way more than 19% the base rate is 20 and at equivalent wages you will be in the higher band

aty268 7y ago

Few things: 1) Salaries are essentially capped at $120,000. 2) Stock options are very rare. Basically, you can't get rich. No different than working at Google but with lower salary potential. This is why Switzerland will never be the next SV.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
I’m pretty sure Google Zurich pays more than $120k.
- mikkelam 7y ago
  According to https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm $131k/yr as avg base salary for software engineer and 173 for senior software engineer.
- config_yml 7y ago
  Depends on the position of course, but they pay much less than in the US. If you want to rake in cash, don't go for a tech job. It's much easier to make > 200k in some random middle management position at a bank.
  - username90 7y ago
    > they pay much less than in the US Not in my experience, it is basically the same. You start at around $160K TC minimum as a junior and then it rises rapidly from there. Glassdoor doesn't have stock and bonus values for Switzerland which makes the salaries look much worse than they actually are.
googlethrow 7y ago
The total comp at Google Zürich starts at 160K chf/year for new grads. It can go much higher with counteroffers.

lormayna 7y ago

No one is mentioning that healthcare is not free (as in the other European country), but you must pay a very expensive insurance.

hocuspocus 7y ago
Insurance itself isn't very expensive compared to what you pay (through mandatory contributions) elsewhere in Europe. Deductibles are high and healthcare is expensive, and the overall fake competition and illusion of choice among private insurers is bullshit, I agree. But in absolute I'd pay a lot more in countries like France or Germany.

aripickar 7y ago

Like half of these are negatives, imo. 1) I've found places in the bay for way less than what they were saying, even without roommates. Its like 2k for a 1br in Lake Merritt, which is 15-20 minute BART to SF. 2) Yes startups that are pre-seed/ pre-series A will have crazy hours, but any big tech co. will be pretty close to 40 hours a week. My team is pretty big about work life balance, and we work at a place infamous for not caring about it. I generally work 9-5, with whatever wfh I want. 3) See point 1. Granted if you want a house, it'll be more/farther out, but apartments can still be had. 4) Money is better in the US. I currently make about 160k USD, which is more than pretty much any European Dev will make. 6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay 46 USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision, and dental. There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the bay area (expensive, local politics are fucked, everyone is a tech bro, etc), but some of these are a bit ridiculous and not very indicative. There's a reason why the bay area is a desired place to live, and why I personally am trying to move back there.

opmac 7y ago
> 6) 300 CHF is still 6x what I pay for healthcare per month. I currently pay 46 USD per month for (from what I can tell is excellent) healthcare, vision, and dental. You are the exception here, not the rule. 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare in the US. It's not uncommon for people to spend 500 USD per month, so 300 CHF would look good to many people. There is also the potential argument that the Swiss healthcare system is better overall than the US system, but that could be a complete debate in itself.
- adventured 7y ago
  > 46 USD for Healthcare is pretty rare in the US. For a software developer (the subject of the post) it is not pretty rare. The median software developer is well over six figures in the US now for salary. Having your healthcare entirely or nearly entirely covered by your employer, is not unusual when you're over $100k.
- j7ake 7y ago
  You also need to compare the amount you have to pay out of pocket before insurance kicks in. 300 CHF probably requires you to pay out of pocket around 2500 CHF before insurance kicks in.

fenk85 7y ago

That article lists income tax at 12.5% that is WRONG! that is the corporate tax rate Income tax in Ireland (including everything) is 20-30% below average ~EUR35K (tax credit dependant) about 50% above this point on every euro.

mistrial9 7y ago

my brilliant colleague went to Zurich for a year to work with finance people on math problems. He said that it was not the culture to mix socially, he liked to ride his road bike in the good weather, and basically, he worked the entire year without making any friends or being social. Then he left. It was expensive for him at the time (no details) even as a well-paid young math programmer, so it was not a big financial win. His french is not great, so that was also a problem. He did not recommend the experience.

tiagopc 7y ago
I agree with this one on some part. It will depend on the city. For Zurich, I agree with that but for Geneva, where I live, that does not apply. The cultural diversity here is way bigger when comparing to Zurich, the fact that a lot of international organizations (UN, Red Cross) are based here may help with that.
ThePadawan 7y ago
Can confirm - the local media will reprint the same articles every few months on how expats are moving away because the Swiss are too standoffish. And that includes Germans. I don't want to lean too heavily on the cliches, but if you come across cold even compared to Germans, surely that's a sign. Source: German expat, living in Switzerland since 2008.
- monaghanboy 7y ago
  Can and do the expats just socialize with each other to mitigate the problem?
  - ThePadawan 7y ago
    Yes, they can and do. This of course leads to a societal enclave where even expats that would like to integrate into Swiss society find it harder and harder to do so. On the other hand, the more right-wing press and parties use them to point out the perceived lack of willing to integrate into society to further restrict immigration. I wouldn't describe this as a mitigation, more of an escalation.

d--b 7y ago

They have no shame. They went as far as praising Switzerland's diversity and inclusiveness... Come on... Healthcare may be the only reason, but you also have it everywhere else...

rsync 7y ago
"They went as far as praising Switzerland's diversity and inclusiveness... Come on..." As someone who owns a business in CH and visits there relatively frequently, I understand what you are saying, but I have two initial responses to you: 1) technically, CH is, in fact quite diverse in terms of population stats - especially Zurich and Geneva. I was surprised to look up and see that 25% of the population of CH is foreign born[1]. 2) That being said, to whatever degree CH is really, really homogeneous (and it definitely seems so as you travel outside Zurich/Geneva/Basel) isn't that a feature ? Isn't that the point of a Switzerland ? I don't want the entire world to be strip malls and walmarts - I enjoy local culture and diversity in nations. [1] https://www.thelocal.ch/20180831/foreign-residents-now-make-up-more-than-a-quarter-of-the-population-in-switzerland https://www.thelocal.ch/20180831/foreign-residents-now-make-...
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
Switzerland is extremely diverse. There are four official languages, and 20+% of the population is foreign-born. In Zurich, that rate is much higher.
- jupp0r 7y ago
  That's like saying Texas is extremely liberal. Moving to most places in Switzerland that are not Zurich, Bern or Geneva will yield a similar experience as moving to non-Austin Texas.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    Most people don't live in the rural areas you're emphasizing. If you exclude cities, the US begins to look pretty homogeneous too. One out of five people living in Switzerland weren't born in the country. There are three major languages, plus a fourth national language. By any reasonable measure, Switzerland is an extremely diverse country. The amazing thing is that a country that's so linguistically balkanised is so stable and orderly.

aantix 7y ago

If you're single or a couple dating, love tech, move to SV. Don't deprive yourself of that experience. Hire a professional relocator to find your apartment. That's what we did. Company paid for it. Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" - from tech to processes to politics. You can attend all sorts of product launch parties, meetups, company socializers. So many that it's impossible to go to them all. You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you read from on HN. Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just tweet at them and ask. I've never regretted those years. The financial line gets much blurrier when we started having a family, along with the SF school system isn't that great. But for tech culture, it was one of a kind. So. Much. Tech. And I loved every moment of it.

rsync 7y ago
"Every third person you will meet is an engineer, generally working on something cool. Everyone has ideas as to how you can do things "better" - from tech to processes to politics. ... You can attend all sorts of product launch parties, meetups, company socializers. So many that it's impossible to go to them all. ... You can meet many of the founders and engineers that you read from on HN. Either they live in SF/Bay Area or end up visiting. Just tweet at them and ask." I live in the SFBA for reasons other than tech/career but this has been a huge plus. It's very interesting and exciting to visit the major tech HQs and meet founders and engineers living and working here, etc. My favorite example of this was last year, 2018, when Twilio Signal was coincident with Litquake. I stayed in the city all week and talked shop with Twilio folks all day and went to talks/lectures about the evils of technology every evening :)

bitL 7y ago

Somewhere at the bottom of the site with very small letters: * requires German C1-level or better

jeffrallen 7y ago

I am a Swiss-American programmer who has worked in California and also in Switzerland, and this is all accurate.

gok 7y ago

> Companies that offer stock options are generally rare Missed opportunity, given that capital gains in Switzerland are tax-free. On that note, the tax rate in the bar chart is for corporate taxes, not personal taxes. Swiss taxes are low but not that low [1]; the average worker burden is around 22%. [1] https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision-of-the-Tax-Burden-on-Labor-in-the-OECD-2018.pdf https://files.taxfoundation.org/20180917120122/A-Comparision...

error265 7y ago

Moving their in 20 days. (software engineer from London). In my opinion there is less opportunities there (In Switzerland) higher starting salary, then people get stuck in the middle 120-140, and can't shift past. (for the reasons mentioned below). Because managers don't want to pay developers more than themselves. HOWEVER, that same problem exists in London, but is typically solved by developers going day-rate contract. That way management can justify and still get experience. Because the market is smaller in Switzerland it does not make it so easy for a day-rate contractor market to exist.. So, my point is, if Switzerland is better than London for developers on a global level. Its only marginal. But compared to other salaries, Doctors, Dentists Lawyers, Engineers etc. Developers in London are well paid (treated as technical roles similar to those mentioned) Whereas in Switzerland developers are paid half++ of those jobs.

rahilb 7y ago
I have seen some day rate contracts in Zurich at astronomical rates, if you don't mind working for a Big Bank. One of them even offered expensed flights, hotel accommodation and a (substantial) per diem! J2EE isn't the bleeding edge but it can keep the lights on.

hc91 7y ago

I call bullshit on this article. Ah and by the way - the bulk of the article contents start after the following sentence: "There are 8 reasons why I personally find Switzerland much better for the fellow Software Engineer: [...]" This is a PERSONAL OPINION of some random guy.

rockinghigh 7y ago

Zurich’s strength is also that it’s centrally located in Europe, within 1-2 hours of France, Germany, and Italy and close to mountains for skiing. There are also some serious negatives ignored in the article. First, weather is a lot worse than in California. It’s wet and cold. Second, they speak Swiss German, which means all administrative forms are in that language. Most people will speak English, at least in a business setting but it’s not as easy as in London or even Amsterdam. If you have kids they will grow up speaking German. Another negative is the price of food and restaurants and the lack of food diversity.

lukeqsee 7y ago
> Second, they speak Swiss German, which means all administrative forms are in that language. All government forms are in (High/Schrift) German, French, and Italian. > lack of food diversity. This is certainly true.

danhanlon 7y ago

The tax section is incredibly misleading. For Ireland, the 12.5% tax rate is corporation tax, not for individuals. The effective income tax rate in Ireland for dev level salaries is 40%+, after a point your marginal tax rate becomes 52%. Quickly looking into it, all the tax rates look like the corporation tax. The graph is blatantly wrong across the board.

gregkerzhner 7y ago

After reading this article, here is my advice to a developer in the Bay Area 1. Definitely don't move to Switzerland. Your cost of living will be very similar, you will have to work more than 40 hours a week, and your salary will go down. 2. Move literally anywhere else in the USA. I live in Boulder, Colorado and its awesome. Mountains and trails out my door with a great city scene as well. People snob at Boulder because its getting expensive, but you can still rent a 1 bedroom for 1300, and get a room in a house for $800. Google, Twitter and Uber are here if you want FAANG level compensation, as well as a bunch of other small companies. 3. Or better yet, get a remote job and move to somewhere even cheaper. I work remotely and it was really hard not to move to Bend, Oregon. I could have bought a nice house there for what I paid for my small townhome in Boulder. The only reason I didn't do it is because I am a fanatic rock climber and the climbing around Boulder is better. One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work 35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at 8am, and then be free by 3pm. The Swiss 9 to 6 is a hard sell with this lifestyle.

0xffff2 7y ago
>One thing I have found about working remotely is that its pretty easy to work 35 hours a week and produce the same output as a full time, in office employee. Less distractions and in-office chitchat, and more working time. In practice this means that you can wake up at 7:30, make a coffee, be online at 8am, and then be free by 3pm This is highly individual. My company lets me work remote whenever and as much as I want. I still spend the vast majority of my time in the office because I'm far less productive when working from home.
- armandososa 7y ago
  I've been working remotely for twelve years now and I think that today I wouldn't be able to write a single line of code in a crowded space with other people.
  - 7y ago

IdontRememberIt 7y ago

Switzerland is a complex system: instead of 1 high rate tax, you pay many low taxes. So cheating is not worth it individually (too risky/complex for a small saving). But the sum is crazy. Exemple of taxes/mandatory ccharges a developper will pay: network tax, photocopy tax, radio tax, VAT, AHV/IV, garbage elimination tax, city tax, state tax, federal tax, healthcare (in some countries it is included in your "federal/state" tax), etc. I just got my "final tax decision"... Switzerland is a fiscal inferno if your income comes from work (vs capital gain)... Usually, I work 6 month per year for taxes. My grand parents were working 1 to 1.5 month in the 60s-70s to pay their taxes also as "independant". Plus with all the crazy fix and variable costs, it is not competitive as an independant or small company. Today, as a "personne morale" (corporation) only complex fiscally optimized structures can get a low tax rate (or as a "physical person" if you are ultra rich (3 comma club) not professionally active in the country you can negotiate a very low rate). PS: also, can we definitively kill the ridiculous myth/reputation of Swiss data protection? (In case of criminal investigation, in many cantons (equivalent to states) a police investigator does not even need a judge warrant to have access to the data)

ElDji 7y ago
> Usually, I work 6 month per year for taxes. Having worked as freelance in switzerland, that sound weird and make me thing : "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
- IdontRememberIt 7y ago
  Each situation is different and depends on an infinity of parameters (for exemple do not forget that a married couple pays more taxes than two individuals). Income city+state+federal (30%), VAT (7,6%), AHV (11%) + all the rest I have lost count of. For exemple, I pay 2,7% for PCI (Family allowance tax). I have a very good revenue by Swiss standard. Everything from work, nothing from capital gain. - I work in Romandie where personal tax a waaaay higher than in Swiss Germany and I am not in the best city... - I do not count 2nd pilier as it is a "capitalisation" system and not "redistribution" (AHV). But are also mandatory insurances. Also, the revenue you will get at retirement is shrinking (due to life expectancy and negative rates) and is forecasted to even decrease in the future. - Do not forget that Federal tax is not linear... PS: Fun fact. Almost all successful French tennis players have lived in Switzerland a few years because they could negociate their taxes. Roger Federer or Wawrinka who have done a lot for a positive image of Switzerland had to pay full rate... PS2: Company tax system is under total renovation now (because of pressure from Europe). I can imaging that personal tax will follow in the coming decades.

TomVDB 7y ago

From what I've heard from a Swiss friend who moved back from SV with an American spouse: even after correcting for COL, it's a major loss of income. In SV, engineers are at the top of the money food chain, in Zurich, it's bankers.

mrep 7y ago

Wow, talk about making me not want to move to Switzerland. Granted, I'm not in the bay area but... 1. Accommodation prices seem about the same where I live. 2. I work 40 hours a week too 3. 20 minute bus ride for me so no "2 hour commute". 4. 120,000 CHF for a senior? I make over 200,000 and I have less than 4 years of experience. That would be a huge pay cut. 5. 35% income taxes + state? This is just blatantly false as effective federal income tax rate doesn't hit 35% until over a million. I for example paid just 22% in federal income taxes including social security and medicare. 6. My biweekly copay is just $50. Granted, I am on a high deductible plan but the deductible is only 1300 with a max out of pocket limit of 2600 a year and I have a health savings account which allows me to save/invest 100% tax free income for health care spending.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

IdontRememberIt 7y ago

Because of FATCA, if you are a US person, do not underestimate the consequences (costs, admin complexity) of the IRS regulation following you abroad.

RocketSyntax 7y ago

Swiss babes

RocketSyntax 7y ago
^ 1 person doesn't like Swiss women.

agounaris 7y ago

Sorry people but Switzerland is boring and hard to integrate! It's nice for specific types of people who enjoy elitism and time-boxing. I will be always surprised by how fast people vanish once the stores are closed...early in the afternoon.

lacker 7y ago

The problem is, the salaries in Switzerland are terrible for good software engineers. This page says 120,000 CHF for 5 years of experience. That's around $120,000 USD. At Google, someone with that much experience is at least an L5. According to https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ in the Silicon Valley region that gets you total comp of $360,000. Yeah, not everyone is making Google money. But a lot of software engineers around here are, or they will be at some point during their career.

hocuspocus 7y ago
An L5 at Google Zurich will earn almost the same as one in Mountain View, pay less taxes and have more vacation. Sure there are more high paying jobs in the Bay Area, but there are also lots of start-ups that pay pretty average salaries plus monopoly money that make the total compensation look good on paper. Assuming everyone will eventually be in the top 10% is silly.

atopuzov 7y ago

Could be worse, you could be living in Dublin, Ireland where it's in the 50% range for damp cold mouldy apartments.

ivanche 7y ago

I know I'm repeating myself, but this should've been a static page - instead if you want to see anything you must enable 3 scripts and 2 XHR. Why, just why?

blunte 7y ago

This seems like just any old other "10 reasons for X" or whatever - blog fluff to help raise a brand. Rather than spend a lot of HN intellectual energy on it, we probably should have just passed it by... That's not to say there aren't some really attractive reasons to be in Switzerland, but trying to compare it to SV is rather pointless (or too broad or too open to disagreement about which metrics matter, etc.).

kiterunner2346 7y ago

FWIW the women of Switzerland are IMO a bit easier on the eye than those of Silicon Valley: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swiss+women&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swiss+women&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+women&ia=images&iax=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+women&ia=images&iax... (OK, OK it's a tough contest: So flip a coin if this is your deciding factor!)

rStar 7y ago

Weather and access to nature in Silicon Valley is optimal for humans. The driving is also great. If you have an actual building to live in the Redwood City to Mountain View corridor, it’s a fairly amazing life.

joelbluminator 7y ago

I think it boils down to which culture you like more, American or European. Both have their pros and cons. The American way of life is characterised by more stress, more inequality, perhaps a bit more ambition (for professionals). Less holidays, less calm and perhaps a bit less care free. U.S will generally pay you more. On Average, the average American is less happy than the average Swiss by many measurements.

madhadron 7y ago

I used to live in Switzerland, so maybe we can mention some of the downsides. It's racist. Really racist. If you're white, no one's going to hassle you to see your papers. If you're not, keep them with you. Expect to meet hostility in shops and markets and get quoted different prices than white people. Those 25% immigrants the article mentions? Mostly European, and many of those aren't immigrants. They were born and raised in Switzerland, but are still considered immigrants. It's rigid. I'm not sure I want my children going to school in a system where using the wrong color pen is penalized comparably to getting the answer wrong.

dzonga 7y ago

The country, I would really want to emigrate to is Portgual. lots of sun, low cost of living. but it seems there's no tech jobs there and they pay poorly. I'm not seeking SV money, either but more like mid city US money in the range of 50-75k EUR for a mid level engineer

jxub 7y ago
Sadly in Portugal 30-40k€ seem to be the top of the market. In spite of that relatively low number, it still buys a high living standard.

mips_avatar 7y ago

European tech companies always trumpet free healthcare. But if you work at a top tech company in the US you don't pay for healthcare either, and the wait times for service are better.

ThePadawan 7y ago

Sure. Now name any Swiss company that makes software that you heard of before. I'll wait. Switzerland is eager to compare itself to Silicon Valley as a center for education and innovation, but I have lived here for 11 years and I can tell you that that comparison is utter horse shit. Why? Because Switzerland, as a tiny neutral country, most of all lacks ambition. You can't make it as a small company with lots of ideas. You couldn't pay the salaries for talent - the talent can earn double or triple working in private banking, insurance of big pharma. Or maybe the talent already moved away since very few companies can afford to even open offices in Switzerland, or if they do, they are sales only. Google, Microsoft and IBM are the biggest exceptions in the Zurich area.

neonate 7y ago

"Silicon Valley is dead for Software Developers"? Nobody goes there anymore it's too crowded.

Wh1skey 7y ago

Ireland is looking really nice now

s3nnyy 7y ago

Tech recruiter in Zurich here. I run https://coderfit.com https://coderfit.com and connect programmers with jobs in Zurich for a living. (I programmed for money before, so I know the market from many sites.) Taxes are low, salaries high and things costs less than one thinks. Yet, the biggest downsite here is the lack of jobs. Zurich has only ~350.000 inhabitants and hence it can't have the same number of opportunities like London, NYC or the Bay Area. That leads to a high variance in pay. I have seen people being underpaid at 85k CHF a year as a senior developer and then going to 120k CHF just by changing companies but doing essentially the same work.

kmarc 7y ago

Many of the comments here insist on housing prices. I'm a Zurich local for the 7th year and would like to put this into perspective. Sharing a flat here is something many younger single people do, but even for the older generation is not a taboo (my friend shared a flat with a single mother and her kid for a couple years). I myself share an enormous modern penthouse-like apartment on a top of a building, at a good and quiet location in Zurich. I wanted to have flatmates (winters are dark and boring here :-) ) and one of the side effects is the cost saving. I never lived in bigger luxury, yet I pay 10% of my monthly income for the rent. Public transportation is affordable, fast, clean, and again, in contrast to the US, not looked down on. A manager in the bank sits next to the paintshop worker on the bus and this is completely fine. I have lived outskirts too, yet never had more than 30min commute. Life might seem inconvenient here (bikes preferred over cars, young people share flats instead of their own kingdom, 2-3x more $$$ for a restaurant dinner, etc), however, all these facts also contribute to better physiological and mental health. It's not for everyone thou, YMMV, etc. On the SWEng side, it's a whole different question. Less competitive environment, less cool bubble projects, no Juicero-like promises to get superrich superfast. (Although this might also one of the factors for a better mental health ;-) )

amai 7y ago

What about vacation days and parental leave possibilities?

Grzegrzolka 7y ago

Meanwhile I pay 20 euro for 1Gbps in Poland and I work remotely for company in New York.