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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

• product50 7y ago
  Courage. And user privacy. Tim Cook should just resign at this point with all his hypocrisy. I don't know how he looks himself in the mirror with a straight gaze these days.
  • TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    I'm willing to bet the Ultra Large Container Vessel class boat-load of money Apple is making helps there.
    • hesarenu 7y ago
      Doesn't apple have around 100 billion cash reserve. How much more do they require?
      • atom058 7y ago
        All. They require all of the cash.
        • TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
          That does appear to be the end-game.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • thelittleone 7y ago
        They ‘require’ as much as the shareholders expect (or more). Shareholders expect growth.... forever!
    • indemnity 7y ago
      If they keep tanking their brand and supposed values in the West with the lack of a backbone, that pile is going to shrink, because the rest of the world is not going to pick up the slack
  • zz9815 7y ago
    ...straight gaze... I see what you did there. Well played Sir!
• ewoodrich 7y ago
  From NBC News reporter @DylanByers on Twitter: “We created the App Store to be a safe and trusted place to discover apps. We have learned that an app, HKmap.live, has been used in ways that endanger law enforcement and residents in Hong Kong. Many concerned customers in Hong Kong have contacted us about this app and we immediately began investigating it. The app displays police locations and we have verified with the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau that the app has been used to target and ambush police, threaten public safety, and criminals have used it to victimize residents in areas where they know there is no law enforcement. This app violates our guidelines and local laws, and we have removed it from the App Store.”
  • bstar77 7y ago
    That is some incredible spin.
    • wutbrodo 7y ago
      I'm as sympathetic to the protests as anyone and I'm definitely not used to defending Apple's behavior, but are we sure that this is spin? Undoubtedly the app is being used for more than just "ambushing and attacking police". But absent a firm belief that this reason from the Chinese government is bullshit, it's actually a pretty tall order (and questionably ethical) for a corporation to push back against a govt demand to remove a tool ostensibly being used to attack police forces. My views on computing freedom generally skew towards the Stallman side of the spectrum, so I'd actually be fine with a stronger norm that Apple could tell govts to screw off[1]. But I'm very aware that I'm an outlier in this sense, and expecting Apple to push back in the face of a demand like this seems well beyond consistency with the norms that currently exist around tech companies' responsiveness expect to govt demands, on grounds of what the power relationship should be between governmental and corporate entities. [1] (and ideally stop being so heavy-handed about their own enforcement of App Store apps...but that's another story)
      • idlewords 7y ago
        The point is the app is not being used for ambushing and attacking police at all, because there have been no such ambushes in Hong Kong. The few situations where Hong Kong police have been in danger have come when a small group splits off and is isolated during a protest. In no case have protesters caught the police unawares in an ambush, let alone off-duty police. By its nature, the app shows large concentrations of police forces. The argument is ridiculous on its face, even if you don't know the situation on the ground in Hong Kong well. No one has been able to point to a single Hong Kong law this app violates, or to any example of it being misused in the way the statement alleges.
• gigatexal 7y ago
  Didn’t they add it back just recently?
  • edwincheese 7y ago
    They just decided to take it down again after the People's Daily wrote about it.
    • gigatexal 7y ago
      Wtf Apple
      • Nerdfest 7y ago
        This is a company that restricts what you can and can't install on your own device and you're surprised they're okay with authoritarianism?
        • gigatexal 7y ago
          They restrict what you can install for example to protect users from ransomware and surveillance capitalists and the like. They are also always championing freedom and expression and the like. But they must appease China to keep that market open to phone sales sadly.
          • noisem4ker 7y ago
            They also restrict what can compete with Apple's own products. Their interests are clear.
    • indemnity 7y ago
      Quite disappointing to see that Apple has absolutely no spine when it counts, only when they are risking nothing.
• idlewords 7y ago
  This move comes after Apple re-instated the app into the app store under public pressure. This comes after Apple told Senator Howley that the decision to block the app had been a mistake: https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1180214941867036672 https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1180214941867036672 It's important for the discussion that this app does not violate any local laws in Hong Kong. It is a safety tool. You can check out the web version here (click icons and paste text into Google translate if you can't read Chinese) https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/ In a nutshell, it shows where police are (puppy icons), police vehicles, concentrations of demonstrators (construction worker icon), sightings of the special riot squad called the raptors (dinosaur icon), and places where demonstrators can find safe transport (house icon). There's a lot of rumor flying around Hong Kong that selective website blocking will be the next emergency measure after the mask ban, so it's very important to have a backup version of this site on the app store (and Google store) in addition to the web version.
  • nneonneo 7y ago
    Using a dog icon for the police isn’t exactly a great look if you’re trying to be neutral. It’s roughly equivalent to using a pig to represent the police in the US. I don’t see why they couldn’t have just used one of the standard emoji for police there - it’d be a lot less likely to offend.
    • frankacter 7y ago
      As a counterpoint, I grew up with McGruff the Crime Dog, which is still used today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGruff_the_Crime_Dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGruff_the_Crime_Dog Also worth noting that K9 Units are heavily utilized by police https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/11_useful_info/pdu/index.html https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/11_useful_info/pdu/index.ht... There is a historical precedent of that association.
      • nneonneo 7y ago
        “It’s totally ok, dogs are police too” doesn’t quite work in a culture where dogs are often invoked as insult words. There’s a different cultural context here that you need to be aware of. As I said, the American equivalent would probably be to use a little pig emoji for a police officer, which I doubt would go over well here. It’s not by a stretch the most controversial aspect of the app, but it doesn’t really help their case much.
• headsupftw 7y ago
  For AAPL, revenue from Mainland China is far greater than Hong Kong. I, as a shareholder with fewer than 100 shares, applaud Apple's decision on this issue.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • imglorp 7y ago
    At what point would shareholder value be considered blood money?
    • jdashg 7y ago
      Right here, right now.
  • mehhh 7y ago
    Wow, literally "Fuck you, got mine" mentality here with all its ugliness on display! So if it makes you a buck, a billion people should suffer under the rule of a despot?
    • dear 7y ago
      It's not about making a buck. It's nationalism. Check user history.
      • mehhh 7y ago
        Chinese nationalism? Cause this is definitely not the words of an American Patriot, at best it could be viewed as rutheless capitalism, Pinkertons and all.
• s3r3nity 7y ago
  >Yesterday, English-language state media outlet China Daily blasted Apple’s decision to allow HKmap.live onto the App Store. “Providing a gateway for ‘toxic apps’ is hurting the feelings of the Chinese people, twisting the facts of Hong Kong affairs, and against the views and principles of the Chinese people,” the op-ed argued. Wow...this type of language - "toxic apps," "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people," etc. - sounds disturbingly similar to SJW rhetoric in the States. EDIT: In case it's not obvious - I am against censoring apps & speech.
  • kevingadd 7y ago
    When have "SJWs" ever lobbied to pull maps or other public information or safety resources? Can you come up with one example? The language is only one component in a given scenario. What the language is being deployed to do is very important. Murderers can use the same language in their court defenses as innocent people.
    • keiferski 7y ago
      Isn’t cancel culture more or less the same thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-out_culture#Cancel_Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-out_culture#Cancel_Cultur...
      • kevingadd 7y ago
        Cancel culture is not remotely related to Apple pulling a maps application off the app store. No one has been cancelled here, unless you count government suppression of speech as "cancel culture".
        • keiferski 7y ago
          I don’t know, they seem relatively related. Both are actions / attempts to silence opposing ideas by putting pressure on businesses and consumers. Calling for someone to be silenced (cancel culture) is closer to actual censorship than the classic “I disagree with what you say but will fight for your right to say it.”
• tru3_power 7y ago
  Woah this is crazy. I don’t buy their excuse. You mean to tell me they didn’t investigate the app the first time it was removed, or when they decided to reinstate it? Come on, give me a fucking break...
  • ladberg 7y ago
    Complete speculation, but maybe Apple wants people to use the app while having plausible deniability by removing it from the store. Banning the app for the first time made it incredibly popular, so a huge number of people would have probably downloaded it as soon as it came back on the store. Then, after a bunch of people download it, they ban it again to appease China. I bet more people downloaded the app this way than if they had just banned it today for the first (and only) time.
• cageface 7y ago
  It may be quite comfortable in that walled garden but it can turn into a jail with a twist of the key.
• dna_polymerase 7y ago
  Oh boy, they would have lynched Tim Cook for loosing China market access over some freedom bullshit in Hong Kong. No seriously, anybody surprised with Apple's reaction? Next time you see Apple's privacy marketing keep this in mind. They will sell your privacy as soon as their profits depend on it.
• ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
  List of businesses who have capitulated to china https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina https://github.com/caffeine-overload/bandinchina
• personjerry 7y ago
  This may be an unpopular opinion, but this is a difficult call, and we should think about both sides of Apple's decision. If the app really is being used to target, and thus endanger, certain individuals, whether or not they're law enforcement, that is problematic, and makes unclear what the right decision is. If we change the circumstances, imagine there is a new Uber-like group transportation app that helps people get around safely in the US. But it enables racist groups to systematically harm civilian groups, and is actively being used to do so. Would the US ask Apple to shut them down? Should Apple shut them down?
  • epaga 7y ago
    You could say the same about Google Maps completely revolutionizing the burglary "industry" with its satellite imagery and escape route calculations. Or about Telegram/WhatsApp offering end-to-end encryption to child pornographers. Etc. etc. - just because an app can be used to do harm should not mean it should be pulled. I think Apple's policy until now has made sense - they've pulled apps that break local laws or that are specifically designed to endanger or harm individuals. This app does neither (unlike Quartz, by the way - once China censored them, Apple needed to comply based on their own policy).
• thefounder 7y ago
  Another reminder that you don't own anything in this new "appstore" and "cloud" services world. You have no right to choose what to watch, what to listen or what app to use. Don't be surprised to have your device /app disabled one day(i.e Adobe/Venezuela case)
• UIZealot 7y ago
  It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China. The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK. So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law. However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee. It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK. What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction. If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.
  • roca 7y ago
    That is a very one-sided summary. For example you omitted the important fact that Taiwan's government very early made it clear that they did not want the extradition law. You omitted any mention of police violence. You omitted how China pressured Cathay Pacific to identify and punish its staff involved in (peaceful, legal) protests. You decline to explain why the HK government refused to officially withdraw the extradition law for months after declaring it "dead". Etc.
    • UIZealot 7y ago
• _bxg1 7y ago
  You'd think this would be the last moment they'd want to do something like this, given the Blizzard fiasco.
• tibbydudeza 7y ago
  This is their Blizzard moment. So Apple are just the same as Google , Facebook and the rest of them , top please their shareholders for the almighty buck. So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform if you want "freedom".
  • Illniyar 7y ago
    Hkmap.live is available on the google play store. You can also sideload whatever app you want. So not "the same" as google.
  • Razengan 7y ago
    > So Apple are just the same as Google > So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform ..... do people even read the scripts they're given
    • Yetanfou 7y ago
      Some do, some don't. Those who do have not yet found anything nefarious but it certainly is possible for some bad apple to end up in the pile of code which makes up an Android distribution. The difference between the paradigms is that it is possible to tailor an Android distribution to your needs (which includes leaving out Google-proprietary code) where it is not possible to do so for iOS and its derivatives. Where (AOSP-based) Android users can 'trust but verify' (a contradictio in terminis given that those who trust should not feel the need to verify) iOS users are left nothing but 'trust'. This trust has been broken several times when it comes to the PRC.
  • s3r3nity 7y ago
    > So Apple are just the same as Google... > So the lesson here is to rather use the Android platform if you want "freedom". I doubt you're going to get much more "freedom" from a Google owned platform if you think the two companies are just as bad...unless you're prepared to root the device to hell to the point of almost replacing the OS completely. SIDEBAR: Facebook is banned in China, partly because FB didn't want to comply with the censorship / surveillance requirements, iirc. Though someone who has more knowledge of the situation could probably clarify. Nevertheless I'm not sure why you lumped them into the actions of Apple or Google.
• huntermeyer 7y ago
  Is Waze still on their app store? Police/Gov't can use apps/devices to spy on citizens, but how dare we reciprocate. Dark times.
• potatofarmer45 7y ago
  The Chinese Government shakedown works like the mob. First they ask for a small favor, and then as you get deeper and deeper in the web, the demands increase. If you've already censored the NYTimes, then Quartz, why not a maps app? It's time the world took collective action (which we're beginning to see) to push back before self-censorship with the threat of coordinated "spontaneous patriotism" creates a new norm where apps that empower hate by the Chinese state is "acceptable" like WeChat and all other apps are banned for frivolous reasons.
  • baybal2 7y ago
    This I met a lot of very self confident American entrepreneurs, over the years, who come to China thinking that they can play their game here. Believe me, an average CPC section chief by mid-30 will have an arsenal of political stratagem to outplay any of those guys. Even though may look inept, they are on completely different level when it comes to your mindgames. Your best bet in this game is not to play it. My own take on it as somebody who's been here for quite some time: the less you see them, the better.
• JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  To ensure I am following the story correctly: - Oct 6th: Apple first rejected the app [0], - Oct 8th: Apple then approved it after criticism for rejection [1] - Oct 9th: Apple removed it after criticism from the CPC (this story) [0]: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map... [1]: https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3032001/apple-allows-hong-kong-protest-map-app-can-track-police-and https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3032001/apple-...
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• thelittleone 7y ago
  I wonder if Apple would ban an app that helped users identity products made in China (so they could buy alternatives). That might be an interesting test.
• JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  To recap: - Oct 6th: Apple first rejected the app [0], - Oct 8th: Apple then approved it after criticism for rejection [1] - Oct 9th: Apple removed it after criticism from the CPC (this story) [0]: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map... [1]: https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3032001/apple-allows-hong-kong-protest-map-app-can-track-police-and https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3032001/apple-...
  • lord_erasmus 7y ago
    Your dates are off, as per [1] "HKmap.live, [...], received approval from Apple on October 4 and was made available for download on October 5, according to the developer"
• hamandcheese 7y ago
  Why is this story already off the front page? Currently 117 points in 1 hour, yet somehow behind “The Origin of the Foot Rail” with 39 points in 7 hours.
  • nneonneo 7y ago
    If I had to guess, the mods are bending the scoring to avoid controversial topics again. They’ve done it before with US politics. Lately there’s been a slew of China news and some of the comments have been incredibly vitriolic. I for one would support this - I like HN being a hacker’s paradise. People grousing over the latest insanity in world news can always find somewhere else to comment.
    • Fnoord 7y ago
      > I for one would support this - I like HN being a hacker’s paradise. People grousing over the latest insanity in world news can always find somewhere else to comment. As long as the insanity is technology or hacker-related it is fine for you? Saying you do not want to see anything political, is apathic and shows you lean towards whatever the status quo is. It is also dishonest (because politics is everywhere). In fact, the very thing I quote from you is a political statement by itself. Here's how to deal with the issue instead: upvote stories you enjoyed and/or press hide on the links you do not want to read.
      • saagarjha 7y ago
        > Saying you do not want to see anything political, is apathic and shows you lean towards whatever the status quo is. That's not what they're saying: they just don't want it on Hacker News. > Here's how to deal with the issue instead: upvote stories you enjoyed and/or press hide on the links you do not want to read. This is coincidentally how you deal with spam without a spam filter. At some point, it's not very productive to have to wade through a content stream that's 50% chaff.
        • Fnoord 7y ago
• edvinasbartkus 7y ago
  When the app is removed from the App Store, does it mean that it disappears from all phones, or it means that the new sales of the app are not possible?
  • saagarjha 7y ago
    When Apple removes an app from the App Store, you cannot download it anymore but it will continue to run on your device if you had it already. Apple also has the power to "blacklist" applications and prevent them from running on your device even if you've installed them (https://iphone-services.apple.com/clbl/unauthorizedApps https://iphone-services.apple.com/clbl/unauthorizedApps), but this list looks empty for now. Usually what happens in the latter case is that the violation is so egregious that they will instead terminate the developer's Apple Developer account, which will have the same effect.
  • newscracker 7y ago
    In my understanding, this depends on what action Apple exactly takes. If it just removes it from the App Store, all existing installations on devices would remain and continue to work. If Apple revokes the developer's certificate, then the app would likely fail to launch sometime soon and would be removed. I'm sure there are gaps in my understanding. Corrections are welcome.
    • kalleboo 7y ago
      I believe these are the different levels they have at their disposal: - Remotely delete from everyone's devices (Apple has never used this capability, they say the ability is there in the case of malware) - Remove from the App Store completely (keeps running if you had it installed, you can back it up to iTunes and reinstall from there, can't download from the store. I think they did this with apps that worked their way around AT&T tethering restrictions back in the day when that was a thing) - Removed from sale (if you installed it before, you can still re-download it from your App Store purchase history) I don't think certificate revocation is applicable to app store apps - e.g. I can revoke my own dev distribution certificate and it only kills self-hosted Ad Hoc builds. They may have per-developer app store certs only available internally as well but I think they'd use one of the capabilities above instead
• idlewords 7y ago
  Why has this story been spiked from the front page?
  • epaga 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211084
• kbumsik 7y ago
  Hey Tim, courage is not only about removing a headphone jack.
• rubatuga 7y ago
  Couldn't the maker of the app argue that this app is also used by people who want to avoid protests and violence? And that Apple is now directly hurting citizens by taking that protection away?
• aurelius83 7y ago
  Apple also recently pulled the app of the American news organization Quartz from the App Store in China. Quartz has been covering the Hong Kong protests. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1182153976873148416 https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1182153976873148416
• jayyhu 7y ago
  I think Apple's action here provides a good case for breaking up platforms. If the App Store were decoupled from the main hardware-making and hardware-selling part of Apple, then there wouldn't be a conflict of interest between providing a neutral app-selling platform and retaining access to foreign markets.
  • chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    I don't think I see how merely separating the App Store from the hardware division provides that benefit, unless you're meaning something different than the way I'm reading it (that is, just making the App Store the responsibility of a separate App Store Company but changing nothing else). Allowing iOS to sideload apps would be a more direct cure for this, because Apple's decisions about what belongs in the App Store wouldn't necessarily translate to decisions about what belongs on the platform. That would solve a fair number of problems for other developers, actually -- and in the long run would probably benefit Apple, too, by virtue of improving the overall health of the iPhone/iPad platform.
    • jayyhu 7y ago
      Right now, it seems that Apple has a lot to lose if the CCP were to suddenly cut off access to China -- both in terms of supply chain and in terms of market access. With an independent App Store, the CCP would have less leverage over the platform, since as a services-only company, it would be far less dependent on China. (In this scenario however, the Apple hardware division as a separate entity will still be very beholden to the whims of the CCP as they still depend on China for its supply chain and market access.) If you look at Google right now, their Play Store still has the app available, mostly I believe, because the CCP has little or no leverage over Google to force their hand. I do agree, tho that allowing side loading apps would also sidestep this issue altogether.
  • jpttsn 7y ago
    What platform is big enough to break up the big platforms?
    • 7y ago
• newscracker 7y ago
  As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let the app stay! Shame on you, Apple! Even John Gruber agrees: [1] > I still haven’t seen which local laws it violates, other than the unwritten law of pissing off Beijing. > This is a bad look for Apple, if you think capitulation is a bad look. [1]: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/apple-pulls-hkmaps https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/apple-pulls-hkm...
  • bigpumpkin 7y ago
    Definitely agree. Privacy is protected by this app. By knowing the physical locations of the police, protesters can evade these anti-privacy forces.
  • personjerry 7y ago
    Nothing in Twitter photo statement talks about privacy. It's clear why the app is problematic: It's being used to target law enforcement, putting those people into danger. The debate here should be between the tradeoff of said danger versus the dangers to the protesters, factoring in the standing-up-to-China.
  • lilyball 7y ago
    I admit to being confused what this has to do with privacy.
    • larkeith 7y ago
      While there are privacy concerns from the precedent it sets (can a journalist trust Apple not to bend to CPP information requests?), I agree that this seems to conflate privacy with an only indirectly-related subject.
    • austhrow743 7y ago
      Privacy is good. By being better for privacy than the worlds largest advertising company/consumer spy agency, Apple announced its intent to be for all that is good in the world. That it's a shining beacon of morality. Protector of Italian virginity. China is bad. By capitulating to them after having declared themselves the enforcer of all that is good and holy, Apple has thus committed hypocrisy.
• epaga 7y ago
  Messages, FaceTime, Maps - all apps that are used throughout the world for criminal purposes which endanger people and law enforcement. This does not mean they should be pulled. Nor does the app break any local laws. This is spin. This is putting the value of money above the value of individual freedom. This is shameful.
• siruncledrew 7y ago
  Out of curiosity, I reviewed the App Store guidelines: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#legal https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#leg... The Legal Section states: "Apps must comply with all legal requirements in any location where you make them available (if you’re not sure, check with a lawyer). We know this stuff is complicated, but it is your responsibility to understand and make sure your app conforms with all local laws, not just the guidelines below. And of course, apps that solicit, promote, or encourage criminal or clearly reckless behavior will be rejected. In extreme cases, such as apps that are found to facilitate human trafficking and/or the exploitation of children, appropriate authorities will be notified." There is also a sub-section, which states: "(iii) Apps should not attempt to surreptitiously build a user profile based on collected data and may not attempt, facilitate, or encourage others to identify anonymous users or reconstruct user profiles based on data collected from Apple-provided APIs or any data that you say has been collected in an “anonymized,” “aggregated,” or otherwise non-identifiable way." Obviously, with HK and China, the stringency of Apple adhering to their guidelines on decisioning is politically contentious. From a broader perspective though, there is something about this type of app functionality that is interesting for other cases - What are Apple's rules about app users tracking other people without their knowledge/consent, and then sharing that information with others? This is also important because it influences levels of privacy protection. As a low-level example, Waze tracks locations of police, cameras, roadwork, etc., which helps drivers avoid tickets for speeding (generally, this seems pretty accepted and I don't know of any major complaints). However, say I have an app that tracks celebrities, musicians, businesspeople, athletes, etc., and I share that location data on a live map for others to see, and also contribute to. I imagine that would not go over too well with the people being tracked, even if they were being tracked out of admiration. This presents its own set of problems too for app abilities.
  • idlewords 7y ago
    Waze is on considerably less solid legal ground than this app.
• CyberMew 7y ago
  Why would they remove this for no reason when it helps me to not be in the area or travel to the area where those events are happening? The logic is the same as removing the AppStore since criminals are also using it.
• dang 7y ago
  Related discussion from an earlier stage of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21159872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21159872
• hardmaru 7y ago
  Official response from HKmap.live team: https://twitter.com/hkmaplive/status/1182154372563836928 https://twitter.com/hkmaplive/status/1182154372563836928
• aussieguy1234 7y ago
  This is a good reason to never buy apple. You never know when you might need to install an app banned by your government. At least on Android you can install apps from unofficial sources.
  • moogleii 7y ago
    If the metric is to circumvent or bypass your government, Android is hardly an ideal option either. It very easily also would fall under the "never buy."
    • Illniyar 7y ago
      Thats's nonsense. You can install any app you want and google has no way of deleting it from your phone. You can root your phone or install completely different OSes. It may not be ideal but it will definitely aid you in circumventing the government.
      • kalleboo 7y ago
        > google has no way of deleting it from your phone Is there any reason to believe that Google's "remote application removal feature" is limited to working on Market apps and not any arbitrary bundle ID? https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2010/06/exercising-our-remote-application.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2010/06/exercising...
        • lern_too_spel 7y ago
          At worst, you can install an application firewall on any Android phone to block all connections to Google.
  • justinclift 7y ago
    The Librem 5 seems like it'll be a better choice: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
• m0xte 7y ago
  The privacy stance is just marketing. They have handed over iCloud keys and data to the state in China already. If they cared about privacy over market dominance that wouldn’t have happened. Unfortunately as an iOS user tied to the ecosystem this puts me in a difficult situation ethically speaking. I am sponsoring this. Perhaps I should stop buying into corporate marketing ideologies. Got burned by that before (Microsoft))
  • neighbour 7y ago
    I have seen this posted before. Can you link me to the proof? Genuinely curious.
    • m0xte 7y ago
      https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUKKCN1G8060 https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight... Fundamentally they moved their kit into a state owned data centre.
    • oarsinsync 7y ago
      Apple's own statements on the matter are vague and you'll need to dig through their ToS, but here it is anyway: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208351
    • bduerst 7y ago
      They did it in two steps. Apple forced users to opt into storing iCloud data in Chinese data centers, and then the Chinese Government nationalized the data centers six month later.
  • simonh 7y ago
    It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure than other phones against non-state attacks, they are actually better off than they would otherwise be. That's a tough call. I have family in China, since my wife is Chinese, and they have iPhones. Would they be better off if Apple pulled out of Chine or worse off? Well, they chose iPhones and they are more secure so isn't it up to them? They wouldn't thank me if I took their iPhones away. On the other hand, if Apple pulled out of China on privacy grounds, it would be massive news. It would not be something the Chinese government could ignore, and might conceivably raise awareness of pervasive state surveillance in China. But people in China are already very much aware of pervasive state surveillance. They even have a social credit system based on watching everything they do. Chinese state control of public narratives is so total, I actually doubt it would make any difference.
• mrpopo 7y ago
  Can't they just use the website anyway? https://hkmap.live/# https://hkmap.live/# Or is that blocked in China too? Does the great firewall affect HK as well?
  • tjpnz 7y ago
    The Great Firewall doesn't yet extend to HK though that likely won't last.
• song 7y ago
  Does this app signal where there's police activity? Yes Could it be used with intent to avoid police? Yes Does it mean that it's only used with criminal intent? I don't believe so. I personally use it to avoid protests and go through my daily life. Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would potentially help with criminal intent? What about the twitter app, lot's of messages related to protests there. And this reinforces my decision not to switch back to ios and instead stick with Android. I don't necessarily trust Google with my privacy and I have my own reservations but at least with Android my phone is my own. I can install what I want. Even a working firewall (I like little snitch on my mac, no reason I shouldn't have something similar on my phone).
  • _pmf_ 7y ago
    > Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would potentially help with criminal intent? Worked for gab.
    • song 7y ago
      For a site like Gab, I always wondered if having a massive amount of users posting messages making fun of the alt right movement, painting neo nazies like the idiots they are and criticizing the site user base wouldn't have been a better way than outright censorship. It would have really tested the supposedly pro free speech stance of that site. I mean I'm being a bit tongue in cheek there but I'm really not sure if censorship doesn't further radicalize those people by letting them rally around a "Us against Them" mentality. Wouldn't interacting with those people be better?
      • rndgermandude 7y ago
        > For a site like Gab, I always wondered if having a massive amount of users posting messages making fun of the alt right movement, painting neo nazies like the idiots they are and criticizing the site user base wouldn't have been a better way than outright censorship. No, both are the wrong approach, in my opinion. If you "deplatform" and censor nazis, then all you do is fuel their victimhood which will only enforce their believes, and worse, people on the brink of sympathizing with them will see them as the victims and underdogs too, pushing those people further in their direction. Now, if you just ridicule the nazis just for the sake of it, you essentially achieve the same result: nazis can again declare themselves the victims. What you got to do is debunk their falsehoods, outline their hypocrisies, highlight the stuff they do not want the general public (especially those people who are on the brink of joining their "movement") to know. Of course, humor and satire and even ridicule are very potent ways to then get your information across, but you have to actually say something/show something with it. You probably won't influence them, they already made up their minds and run their cognitive dissonance in overdrive, but putting this information out there, especially in entertaining way, denying them plain victimhood, showing how they are the bullies and denying them the prerogative of interpretation (they often have because we're too lazy to actually argue against them and resort to idle insults instead) is what can and does make "undecided" people think twice before joining their movement. I saw that with Hilary and her "basket of deplorables". This kind of insult and ridicule drove quite a few undecided people right into the arms of Trump. I believe this is actually the single event that won Trump his presidency (it just just my belief based on what I saw, not something I claim is a verified fact). The Rust Belters who secured his success didn't give much fucks about email servers, "BENGHAZI!!!" or the Russian trolls claiming Hilary's people run a pedo ring in a pizza shop, but they did mind being called "deplorable" because they were concerned about their blue collar jobs in the context of immigration and globalization. This is further evidenced by Trump's targeted (facebook) ads hitting on those topics and how Hilary is a "stooge" for the globalists and Goldman Sachs ("Crooked Hilary", "drain the swamp"). I can see that a lot with the AfD party in Germany, which isn't exactly alt-right, but sure has a lot of alt-right members, including some rather prominent ones like "Bernd" Höcke, and uses quite a bit of alt-right/identitarian/ethno-centrism/"supremacy" ideology as well (they also e.g. deny climate change, think women belong in the kitchen, really do not like homosexuals - even tho one of ther party co-chairs is openly lesbian, but all this is rarely talked about). They have a tendency to portrait themselves as the victimized underdog, and it works, works extremely well. Even works with me sometimes, subconsciously at least, and I despise them politically and ideologically, and find most their policies outright abhorrent. Every time I see stories about antifa attacking AfD events or AfD people, I sympathize with them for being the victims of violence. Every time the other parties fuck with them not on merits but just to fuck with them, like in a recent state election when the election commission tried to reject the vast majority of their candidates on a technicality, I fear for democracy and I sympathize with them to a degree. Every time I read a comment saying something like "every nazi/AfD/alt-right/white supremacist is a cunt" or even "...has to die" or "out to collect some nazi scalps", I sympathize a little with them, because they are people after all (with some very vile idea, misguided and indoctrinated, but still), as I find this kind of violence and dehumanizing rhetoric very problematic, same as as I find the way they usually try to dehumanize other people or are openly violent evil and disgusting. However, when I see satire and cabaretists make fun of them, not just because, but outlining the evils hit they say and do and debunking the falsehoods they spew, that's something that resonates with me, and not just me. In Germany, you got a slew of programs and prominent comedians that do that, from heute show, extra 3 and Die Anstalt, over to Böhmermann and Sonneborn. The US has quite a few of those, too, like Real Time, Last Week Tonight, The Daily Show (that I know of and regularly consume), but comparing both countries styles, I find the US stuff often lacking in substance underneath, going just for cheap shots, unrelated jokes and outraged rhetoric instead, in particular when it comes to John Oliver (tho he has his moments, too)
• rahkiin 7y ago
  I started wondering whether Apple is playing a longer game here: - Reject the app: create media attention - Accept the app: media attention, HKers can download the app en-masse. - Then a few days later comply to the CCP and remove it from he store, but keeping it on the user devices. The app is still usable by all those that downloaded it. They did not tell the CCP that they _could_ block them on devices too. This way HKers have the app but the Apple production chain in China is safe. (And without that chain there are no iPhones anywhere). I just don't see why Apple would make such a major PR screwup by rejecting and THEN accepting only to reject it again. Would have been less issue if they kept it rejected all along.
• sillycube 7y ago
  Shame on you, Apple! You value money more than freedom.
• jmull 7y ago
  What a disgrace
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• jpttsn 7y ago
  Okay so we all hate this “censorship.” How can they punish all app users for the potential wrongdoing of a few? Meanwhile, remind me, how do we feel about gun sales in the US? If Target takes a rifle off their shelves, will we exorcise Target? Thought experiment. Is it really about the huge principle difference between apps and guns? Or are we just generating principle-excuses to agree with our side?
  • zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    So, you have DRMed hands and only Target can sell guns that can be held by those hands? Is that the analogy that you were building there?
    • jpttsn 7y ago
      Are you saying I bought my hands at Target? Or that people were born with their iPhones?
• huffmsa 7y ago
  There's a certain irony in that 1984 commercial now, isn't there?
  • yyyk 7y ago
    It's not irony - we've just misunderstood Apple all these years. If you look closely at the commercial, Apple never actually said which side they're on. Looking at their actions - they're on the side on the ordered regime defending the users from themselves and from a troublemaker running around with a unlicensed and unauthorized hammer she's holding wrong. They'd just would like the regime to be a bit more stylish.
• noah-kun 7y ago
  Apps used by terrorist to target victims and plan attacks should absolutely be removed from the App Store. People fail to see these folks as terrorists but they're literally trained, paid and lead by the same US politician who oversaw the Contra programs. If you're a legitimate user of this site, please read: these attacks are coordinated with the media which repeatedly calls them "clashes", "anger boiling over", "confrontations" and "suppression (by the government)". It's even easier to co-ordinate such messages online. Not a day goes by without stories and comments about China on this site. There's little doubt the same media coordination goes on in social media, including here. It's a weakness--perhaps deliberate--in the Internet and how we build communities. We are all worried about privacy, etc. But when has there ever been concern over Western astro-turfing and manufacturing consent online? I've yet to see it. Repeatedly we see stories of US/NATO intelligence infiltrating and abusing power within social networks to manipulate perceptions. Where is the platform the protests against this?
  • dictum 7y ago
    > It's even easier to co-ordinate such messages online. Not a day goes by without stories and comments about China on this site. What shows up often is just as important as what's never seen, because it's been censored. China knows a thing or two about manufacturing consent and astroturfing, too.
• asdf333 7y ago
  surprising this is so low given the number of points... i wonder if there is a chinese downvote brigade in action here trying to suppress this story
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• helen___keller 7y ago
  It's time for businesses to treat China as a risk. China uniquely puts businesses in a position where they must choose between violating their values and violating their profits, and the recent spat of PR disasters have proven that your values affect your bottom line as well. China will put your business between a rock and a hard place. Price it in.
• faitswulff 7y ago
  The app was reinstated: > Following the outcry, Apple decided to admit the HKmap.live app to the App Store yesterday, where it is now available to download. The app developers were happy with this outcome, saying that they believed the decision was more of a bureaucratic issue rather than a political decision and writing, “We understand @Apple have many business considerations, but since they already make thing right I don’t see any point to keep pressing.” Source: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-hk-protest-map...
  • klagermkii 7y ago
    Yes, but now it's pulled again. The link you have is from October 6th.
  • NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    This is a follow-on to that, it's been removed again.
    • faitswulff 7y ago
      Ah, thanks. And very disappointing.
  • ptconroy 7y ago
    It was re-removed: It was Apple’s second reversal on HKmap.live, which it initially rejected and then allowed to appear on its App Store. The latest about-face came after the People’s Daily, the Chinese Communist Party’s official newspaper, said in a blog post this week that the app had “betrayed the feelings of the Chinese people.” The article accused the app’s anonymous developer of harboring malicious motives and queried whether Apple was an accomplice of “rioters.” Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/apple-pulls-police-tracking-app-used-by-hong-kong-protesters/2019/10/10/4aad5ebe-eb14-11e9-a329-7378fbfa1b63_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/apple-pull...
• mugwort13 7y ago
  They are sealing their own inevitable fate. Not sure how they don’t see it
• phyzome 7y ago
  > we have verified with the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau [CSTCB] that the app has been used to target and ambush police "the foxes have verified that the app has been used by hens to ambush foxes"
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • idlewords 7y ago
    The Hong Kong authorities just had a press conference where they basically said "this is purely an Apple matter" https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641 https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641
• greatjack613 7y ago
  Honestly, I think we as in the United States have to think harder whether it is worth sacrificing our beliefs in freedom to gain a few $$$ (edit: A lot of $$$$$) from countries that don't provide their citizens with basic rights.
  • greatjack613 7y ago
    Not saying it is easy, but its something that should at least be strongly considered.
  • whoevercares 7y ago
    I’ve heard from a few famous economists that attributed current low inflation to China. It’s probably a complicated and super risky move considering the impact to lower class people
    • snagglegaggle 7y ago
      Allowing the rise of authoritarianism would seem like a complicated and super risky move considering the impact to lower class people
      • whoevercares 7y ago
        I agree with your point in its final form. Unfortunately it doesn’t work at the moment since you at least need to convince some tens of millions Chinese people who have been lifted from poverty under CCP during past 30 years, or you have to wait until Chinese government make things much worse. Before that, some sanction move from western might be viewed as political coercion from mainland Chinese people’s perspective and we probably could guess what it’ll lead to (wars). I think it’s good enough now to exert influence from HK &Taiwan or China’s neighbors, but I do think any other move is dangerous
        • snagglegaggle 7y ago
          Wait, are you trying to say China is more powerful than the US? Why give in to appeasement? I don't really care if their feelings are hurt.
• droithomme 7y ago
  I recall something similar happening once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Something of a pattern over history of some technology firms really enjoying colluding with totalitarian states in order to facilitate mass human rights abuses. It's highly profitable for one thing and for another they know they will never be held accountable. At most issue a press release decades from now saying that it is with sadness they reflect on findings that certain regrettable things may have happened in the distant past.
  • Shaddox 7y ago
    I think it's far more agnostic than that. As long as an entity has enough money and a wish, there will be someone willing to grant it.
• pixelbreaker 7y ago
  It's here anyway https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/
  • dmvinson 7y ago
    I think the issue is more about Apple's acquiescence. My guess is protesters require a VPN at this point to access the map's server regardless of it they do so through the app or the website. The technical barrier is there regardless, but the fact that Apple is making clear what their values are worth merits discussion.
• mmastrac 7y ago
  It's time that North Americans take a stand and use economic power for something other than furthering that goal. There are so many places where a simple refusal to kowtow/censor or technical attack on censorship infrastructure could help so many that don't have the luxury of living in our world. If we're not going to use all this economic power for good, what's the point?
  • excalibur 7y ago
    > It's time that North Americans take a stand and use economic power for something other than furthering that goal. Which goal is that?
    • pmlnr 7y ago
      being an economic power
      • traderjane 7y ago
        I sure hope that's the goal, or else we wouldn't be able to afford our real goal.
        • excalibur 7y ago
          Which goal is that?
          • geddy 7y ago
            being an even bigger economic power!
            • excalibur 7y ago
              I'm sorry, the answer we were looking for was: - To protect the world from devastation - To unite all peoples within our nation - To denounce the evils of truth and love - To extend our reach to the stars above
• Danbana 7y ago
  Very exciting to see momentum gathering against Apple's walled garden. checkm8, AltStore. You should be allowed to install any app you want, take any drugs you want, and people who can't use this power responsibly be pwnd
• vezycash 7y ago
  To app stores esp IOS users and appologists: "He who trades his freedom for safety gets none of them."
  • grotsnot 7y ago
    "As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
  • aasasd 7y ago
    Your use (and thorough butchering) of Franklin's quote in this context is especially hilarious because Franklin, in the letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, was lobbying for Britain to appoint its own governor for Pennsylvania instead of the governor set by the Penn family, the owner of most land in the state. And then to tax the Penn family to fund ongoing conflicts in other colonies. Which proposition made Franklin unpopular in Pennsylvania, so he was soon booted from the Assembly.
• djohnston 7y ago
  really solid argument for the dangers of apple's walled-garden monopoly
• hello_friendos 7y ago
  I can't believe they removed waze!? Oh, wait. Seems like there are different rules for different apps. . . .
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• stephc_int13 7y ago
  Blizzard and now Apple. I think this is very serious and it should be a wake-up call. As simple citizens we don't have much choices but vote with our wallets and use social networks to attack the most valuable asset of those companies, their reputation.
  • ProAm 7y ago
    This isnt about free will, its a clear indication that the US is not the worlds most important economy anymore.
    • Ensorceled 7y ago
      No, this is companies betting that the few percent of the American market they are losing by behaving this way will be outweighed by getting access to the Chinese market. If this was a straight-up choice between only the US market or only the Chinese market, they would be picking the US. Protestors have to change that calculus.
    • jorvi 7y ago
      Depending on the year either the EU or the USA are the biggest economy with China being either second or third. So long as 'the west' sticks together (which we haven't for the past few years) there is nothing that can break that hegemony. Whether that's a good thing depends largely on where you live.
    • 0xffff2 7y ago
      So far no one has had to choose. If the US started sanctioning US companies that took these kinds of actions, then we'd find out as companies either reversed their decisions or fled the US.
      • SubiculumCode 7y ago
        Apple is a U.S. entity. It would cease to exist if the U.S. government chose.
• minusf 7y ago
  not to excuse them, but i think apple has pulled a nice diplomatic move here. the app was available long enough for many interested parties to install it (using the same reasons, it could have been not approved from the start) but also not aggravating the chineese government for too long. fighting the leadership head on will never work on the long run.
• elicash 7y ago
  What's weird is that if you google: "Hong Kong" "Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau" -apple You come up with surprisingly little. Basically two stories. One about preventing scams in Hong Kong, and one about fake checks. I was expecting tens of thousands of results. Is there a more common name that's used in English for this entity? I'd like to research more about who they are other than the generality of a wing of the police force.
  • newtat 7y ago
    I am a Hong Kong local. Never heard of this "Bureau" until now. https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/04_crime_matters/tcd/tcd.html https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/04_crime_matters/tcd/tcd.ht... Looks like it is a department in the police force. So Apple's response basically boils down to "We are requested by the cops to remove the app".
  • aldoushuxley001 7y ago
    Unfortunately google is barely a search engine anymore, try on DuckDuckGo and you’ll find more relevant results. That’s what happens when google switches from trying to give you the most relevant results to simply trying to spoon feed you what they want or don’t want you to know.
  • throwaway1997 7y ago
    They mostly deal with investigating the crime of "Accessing a Computer with Dishonest Intent" which is a catch all law which can apply to completely non-computer related crimes.
• dmvinson 7y ago
  I would like to think the public back-and-forth over this app is a sign of internal conflict within Apple over whether or not to list the app on the App Store. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that everyone is against removing it but too scared of China's retaliation to act on their convictions.
• UIZealot 7y ago
  It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China. The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK. So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law. However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee. It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK. What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction. If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.
  • decoyworker 7y ago
    How many people have died in these huge, violent and destructive protests that have been raging for months?
  • dmvinson 7y ago
    Thank you for the context, but I find it hard to believe that the HK Chief Executive was not influenced by or seeking favor with China when making the law. Also, this seems to ignore the question of Taiwan's sovereign status and assume they are part of China. Speaking more factually, China has used unrelated charges to arrest and imprison political dissidents for years now. This is a known phenomenon, and likely the reason behind the protestor's concerns about extradition. The promise not to use the law for political crimes is worthless knowing that history.
• munmaek 7y ago
  It’s extremely worrying how far Apple bends over to appease China. First censoring the Taiwan flag, now deliberately removing this app after initially refusing it.
  • xigency 7y ago
    The Taiwanese issue is super interesting since Apple manufactures their silicon in Taiwan and their commodity hardware in China.
• thewholeview 7y ago
  Apple has actually been quite smart here. Everyone knows the limiting condition that we are seeing in the world right now. What Apple has achieved is to allow the app to be downloaded for several days and then to make an appeasement. We see a similar strategy used by NBA in recent times. It is undoubted that such a play will receive flame from both sides, but as such they haven't really taken sides and yet also have answered to calls.
• _coveredInBees 7y ago
  Ha! Just yesterday, everyone was talking about Apple as bastions of user privacy, etc., only for them to put profit over principles AGAIN in less than a week. It's just so shameful, but I guess that's capitalism working its magic and putting shareholder profits above all else. Not that Apple is any different from any other megacorp, but they sure do like to pretend like they have principles and care about users. Turns out they only care for those who don't threaten their bottom line.
  • helpPeople 7y ago
    I'm not sure how Apple does this, but they will promote a negative feature as a positive thing. Then their fan base, or astroturfers will share this idea whenever it comes up. I wonder how we will look back at Apple as we better understand the human psychology.
• fallingfrog 7y ago
  Hey guys capitalism is going to protect us from dictators. Corporations are our friends. ..Guys?
• 3dfan 7y ago
  Why is an app needed to display things on a map? Isn't that something a website can do just fine? Which brings up an interesting, more general topic: Why do we need apps at all? What is the fundamental difference to websites?
  • avocado4 7y ago
    Apps provide better user experience through higher performance. I'm this case though website is sufficient: https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/
    • 3dfan 7y ago
      Why is the performance of Apps higher? Isn't both just code executed on the client?
      • mantap 7y ago
        There isn't really, you can hit 60fps on both, especially on current iPhones. The main thing missing on the web is an equivalent to Metal (they are working on it) so it is not possible to built 3D apps without sacrificing a lot of performance.
  • overcast 7y ago
    This argument has been waging since the app store was first introduced. For games/graphics intensive applications, sure an app is fine. Everything else displaying some text, the web should be standard.
  • bufferoverflow 7y ago
    Websites can be trivially blocked. Apps have tons of options of how to deliver information to the client. Russia has been trying to block Telegram for a few years no, with no success.
  • mantap 7y ago
    It really hard to get an app-like experience in iOS Safari. I don't know if they intentionally cripple it, but they certainly have no incentive to make it good.
• steelframe 7y ago
  Waze also tracks police locations, and people use that information to decide whether to break the law.
• avocado4 7y ago
  https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/
• skizm 7y ago
  Can the Waze app be used? It already has the built in functionality of reporting police locations. Not sure how well it is supported or how many people use it in HK though.
• Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. † Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from what is many people's primary computer. We live in a digital age, and software is a form of free expression. We wouldn't find this acceptable with eBooks, and we should not find it acceptable for applications. --- † Unrealistic workarounds include paying $100 per year for a developer account, reinstalling the app once every seven days, or finding a shady, stolen enterprise certificate. These are not real alternatives for 99% of people.
  • helpPeople 7y ago
    To be fair, Apple users consider it a benefit to not have control over their phones. I know right? It's crazy people pay more money for less. I'm not sure how to teach Apple users, they seem to find an excuse for every anti-consumer thing they do.
    • Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      It's because the locked-down nature of the iPhone is always made out to be an all-or-nothing policy. I legitimately don't understand why. There are real benefits to having a curated, sandboxed, and audited selection of safe, quality software. Most users should never need to leave such an environment What is necessary is an escape hatch—one that doesn't involve continual software reinstalls, or outright buying new hardware. It's fine to hide the option away in settings, where most users won't find it. But in extraordinary circumstances—like when your city is rioting against your government—people will help each other locate the switch, and download what they need to stay safe.
      • api 7y ago
        I spoke with a former Apple dev on this topic once. He says that you can opt out of code signing and the App Store on Mac because that's a professional OS, but for iOS the security rationale for not allowing that is that it's geared for less tech-savvy users. Paraphrasing: "If there is a way to opt out, malicious apps and sites will con users into doing it to get malware on the phone." I can't totally disagree. To have a completely secure device you have to lock out the user since the user is often the least secure component of the system.
• bufferoverflow 7y ago
  Lesson learned: don't use apple phones. Android lets you install APKs from any source.
  • mehhh 7y ago
    China forces the Uighurs and anyone who visits their region (Xinjiang) to install malware on their Android: https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/294389-china-is-installing-android-malware-on-tourists-phones https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/294389-china-is-installin... Banning sideloading forced China to use iOS exploits, which are ephemeral and not consistently effective. Installing apps outside a repository (like on most Linux distros) is a dual edged sword, Apple and Google are poor stewards of their software repositories compared to Debian or OpenSuse.
    • Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      > Banning sideloading forced China to use iOS exploits, which are ephemeral and not consistently effective. But that's just it, China found their own way in! I don't think it's obvious which method is less effective. iPhones were compromised until reboot, and became reinfected as soon as the user next visited the malicious website—which a government can compel people to do frequently. That's still better than Android, but on Android, users knew they were being tracked. iOS users did not. (And of course, because iOS is locked down, it's harder to inspect your phone for signs it's compromised.) If China hadn't found an exploit, do you think they would have given up? I think they would have required iOS users to carry dedicated trackers. Or just surveilled them more heavily. Software restrictions don't impact the powerful, who have access to alternatives. They impact the average user, who has limited reserves of money, knowledge, and time.
      • mehhh 7y ago
        There is a huge practical difference between being temporarily infected and permanently having malware embedded in your phone. The former is fixable with a software uodate from a company that actively looks to secure your phone, while in the latter case the device is hopelessly compromised. I love sideloading, but if I were a target of interest then iOS is the only reasonable choice.
• cletus 7y ago
  So I joined Google in 2010 (and left in 2017). One of the things that I deeply respected at the time was Google's stance on China. Google pulled out of China in 2010 in response to a hack that is widely believed to be state-sponsored by China and probably aimed at getting to the Gmail accounts of dissidents although I've seen no official confirmation of this internally or externally. I respect the position that Google didn't want to be enable Chinese censorship and essentially support a totalitarian and repressive regime (and before anyone argues China isn't this, ask the Uighurs in Xianjing what they think). China has decided for better or for worse that they're not going to let any foreign company control any market in China. This is why you have Alibaba, Baidu, Tencent, Wechat, Huawei and so on rather than Amazon, Google, Facebook or Apple. Part of me respects the desire to maintain sovereignty essentially. After all, China has a long history here with the Japanese, the British and countless others and you can't forget that. But what I don't get is how Western governments and companies simply either don't understand this or don't want to. No Western company will succeed in China because the Chinese government will ensure that it won't happen. Period. As soon as you understand this the tantalizing carrot of a market of 1B people is revealed for the lie that it is and your choices actually become a lot easier. Now obviously for the likes of Apple, this is complicated because we're not just talking about a market to sell goods but their entire supply chain. I, like others here and elsewhere, have valued Apple's stance on user privacy but make no mistake, it is self-serving and directly entirely at Google's business model. And where you see Apple capitulate to Beijing here (which is exactly what happened) you see why: because Apple's relationship to China is the pillar that their business is built on. I fully expect other tech companies to counter Apple's attack on their business model by attacking Apple on China for exactly the same reasons. Sometimes the only way to win is not to play and I guarantee you you won't "win in China'.
  • xibalba 7y ago
    > we're not just talking about a market to sell goods but their entire supply chain. This is a critical and massively overlooked consideration. China has huge leverage over Apple because of this.
• olah_1 7y ago
  I wonder if they could use the Waze app for that...
• sho 7y ago
  Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. Let's say one day some stupid little state that you don't care about and vaguely resent decides it wants to secede, wants all these rights others don't have, wants to be able to marry its cousins or make nukes at home or whatever. Alabama, say. Alabama wants to secede and they have some demonstrations. You think: "hahahaha no" They keep demonstrating. The larger country talks about sending in the national guard or something. "Good, who do they think they are" you say. Some alabamans post an app on the app store so they can avoid the national guard. It's linked to secessionist alabamans avoiding and even attacking the guard. Apple takes it down, then puts it back up, then takes it back down "Good" you say. This is how, conservatively, 90%+ of Chinese think. For them, HK is a tiny little past-glory city who thinks it's better than everyone else and is just causing trouble. They will eventually be brought into line, hopefully without too much bloodshed, just like Alabama. It's not really malicious. It's a province of China - it's misbehaving, and it will be brought into line in due course. Nothing more, nothing less. I expect someone explained these truths to Apple, they saw the futility of taking some hopeless, simplistic, you-don't-even-live-here side, decided this was not the hill they wanted to die on, and pulled the app. I don't blame them. I'd like to note that I do not support the Chinese Govt in any way and think the world would be a better place with an independent, democratic HK - a city I genuinely love. The Chinese have about as much chance agreeing with that as Americans would about an independent Alabama. Not going to happen.
  • zwkrt 7y ago
    This is not an argument in good faith. Alabama has no precedence of self governance, and that precedence is not being actively threatened by the US government. The thought that HK protesters (or Alabamians) just want to “marry their cousins or something” is icing on the cake. Just because some people think it is so does not make it so.
    • 7y ago
• eloff 7y ago
  It won't bother Apple in the slightest, but I need a new laptop in the New Year, and after seeing this I can say it won't be a Mac. I'm going to hold out for one of the 7nm AMD laptops when they're released. It will have to run Ubuntu, which is a bit sad, but at least I took a stand with my spending vote.
• mikece 7y ago
  I was about to ask why Silicon Valley companies act so beholden to China... and then I remembered where their supply chain originates.
  • coldtea 7y ago
    They also have a huge market there, that's on the rise for future decades (many poor remaining trying to become middle class), whereas their own are getting saturated...
• adam12 7y ago
  Why does this have to be an app in the App store? I wonder what APIs they are using that can't be replaced by something that will work in the browser.
  • idlewords 7y ago
    There's a browser app at https://hkmap.live https://hkmap.live. Having an app in the app store is useful backup, since there has been talk in Hong Kong of censoring the internet under emergency law.
    • Double_a_92 7y ago
      The app still uses the internet... What would hinder them from just blocking the API endpoints? The app is probably just much more convenient.
      • idlewords 7y ago
        It's not the A-team of Chinese law enforcement working the case over here in Hong Kong, so simple measures like these can be effective.
  • ccvannorman 7y ago
    Browser apps can't penetrate the Great China Firewall as China can simply ban the domain
    • ReptileMan 7y ago
      Hong Kong internet is unfiltered. Actually the easiest way to have non stop pure internet in mainland China is to have a HK prepaid sim card.
    • aembleton 7y ago
      Hong Kong isn't behind the Great Firewall
    • YLvkLU 7y ago
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• xibalba 7y ago
  This is a vexing problem. It seems that many here would want Apply to defy China. This will result in Apple's expulsion from China/HK. Those users will then move to other phone mfgs/services providers, with higher probability that it will be Chinese, thereby granting the PRC even more power over HK'ers. Contrarily is the "seat at the table" approach. Apple could comply with China, while continually introducing features/functionality that fundamentally block them (Apple) from complying with PRC demands (encryption, privacy, etc etc). Apple would not be able to announce this, and it might ruin their reputation in the meantime. It also allows Apple to continue hoovering up that sweet, sweet China/HK cash. What is the best approach? Most of the comments here are signficantly oversimplifying the options available to Apple and the calculus that goes into making those decisions. Additionally, most opinions being posted are heavily centered on Western values/viewpoints.
  • matwood 7y ago
    I agree with you that it is more complicated than just leaving or not. Plus, Apple is currently dependent on Chinese manufacturing (a problem of Apples own making for sure). I would love to know what the conversations are between Apple and China right now. IMO, Apple has to be working towards removing their dependence on Chinese manufacturing, if for nothing else for business risk mitigation.
    • xibalba 7y ago
      > Apple is currently dependent on Chinese manufacturing This seems like the single most overlooked aspect of this. Bc of this, China has existential leverage over Apple.
      • mslate 7y ago
        The single most overlooked aspect of this is how many Chinese are employed as part of Apple’s supply chain. It is not in CCP interest to destroy millions of Chinese citizens’ incomes.
        • 7y ago
• donohoe 7y ago
  Wait. They did ban it. Then they approved it again. Have they banned it again? See BoingBoing article from Oct 4th: "Apple reverses ban on HKmap.live app tracking Hong Kong protests & police" https://boingboing.net/2019/10/04/hkmap-live-hong-kong.html https://boingboing.net/2019/10/04/hkmap-live-hong-kong.html
  • jakelazaroff 7y ago
    Yup, this article is from today.
    • donohoe 7y ago
      Right, but I'm asking if this article is outdated already? Often a story gets held up while being written and doesn't account for developments in last few days. It is just confusing as they don't state that this would be Apple undoing a previous reversal in the fate of this app. Update: ok, Apple did initial reinstated it and has removed it again. https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/09/apple-pulls-hkmap-from-app-store-the-day-after-chinese-state-media-criticized-its-unwise-and-reckless-decision-to-approve-it/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/09/apple-pulls-hkmap-from-app...
      • rtkwe 7y ago
        The article is from today and references tweets made today (10/10) and dates the removal to late 10/9... There's no evidence that this is an out of date article. Apple caved, uncaved, then recaved again.
  • not_a_cop75 7y ago
    Is it like it cant be loaded via other means? Apple store, surprisingly enough is not the only game in town when getting things to install to Apple.
    • otachack 7y ago
      Technically can pony up for a Enterprise account ($200/yr?) and have protestors install the app after trusting the Enterprise org. You just have to host the IPA on a site somewhere. If you want to build the source code and install the app to a device, you still need at least a Dev account ($99/yr) and macOS+Xcode. Without an account you won't have the provisioning and certificates to install on a "Dev" device. You are also limited to just 100 test devices I think under a regular dev account. Another option is to crack the phone, then you can just go through third party repos to fetch the app.
• SubiculumCode 7y ago
  Google does it too, but at least you can install from other sources in Android. But shame on you Google/Apple. Shame on you.
• ReptileMan 7y ago
  Enjoy the benefits of locked bootloaders, walled gardens, no root, and codesigning without control of the keys.
• ausjke 7y ago
  we all bend for money, everything else is just a sugarcoat for getting more money I guess.
  • ReptileMan 7y ago
    As the old jokes goes - we already figured out what you are, we are just haggling over the price.
• alunchbox 7y ago
  I still don't understand how so many consumers are on the Apple platform. Their tools are really painful to use from my time build for their ecosystem, slow and outright overpriced. This has been a known thing yet the entire consumer market is obsessed with Apple, I honestly don't understand it.
• sproketboy 7y ago
  FUCK APPLE
• collyw 7y ago
  Is it possible for the average user to install this outside of the app store? Or do you need a rooted phone for that?
  • SwiftyBug 7y ago
    If the code is open source one could compile it and run it directly on their device. But they would need a Mac to build the code on Xcode.
    • jedimastert 7y ago
      Don't you also need some sort of developer license to side-load apps like that?
      • uberduper 7y ago
        You can get a free developer account which will let you sign an app for 7 days. You just have to redo it every week.
  • Unknoob 7y ago
    Impossible in the Apple ecosystem without jailbreaking your device. Which hasn't been viable for at least 6 years.
  • danpalmer 7y ago
    It's possible with an enterprise distribution certificate. There are "fake" app stores that distribute pirated apps, they are particularly common in Asia, and I believe many "average" users use them. Apple can shuts them down by revoking the certificates, but it seems to reduce the visibility, and therefore extend the time that they can work for.
• bmarquez 7y ago
  Apple's walled garden is a double-edged sword. If Apple would allow users to easily* sideload applications like Android, protesters can easily bypass these types of bans. *telling someone to install Xcode or Cydia Impactor and resigning a certificate every 7 days is too much for the average user
  • scarface74 7y ago
    Or if all the app does is report police presence using your location, they could create a website and not need an app at all....
    • jonfw 7y ago
      hkmap.live The map is online as well, I guess they also wanted the app
      • scarface74 7y ago
        What does the app do that the website doesn’t?
        • vzidex 7y ago
          Nothing much, which some people argue is additional justification for Apple removing it - one of their rules is that apps have to use native iOS features, and can't just be glorified webapps.
    • qzx_pierri 7y ago
      It’s not that easy to create a website in China. You need an ICP license to run a website over there.
      • umeshunni 7y ago
        Not in Hong Kong, only in the mainland.
• gtirloni 7y ago
  If Apple didn't comply, what would be the direct consequences? Some Apple executive in China goes to jail and never comes back?
• Asterate 7y ago
  And when you think yesterday people were talking that at least apple is better than blizzard.It didn't took long.
• ic4l 7y ago
  It's still a mobile website, so they can just use a VPN to access it.
• jasonlotito 7y ago
  This is not surprising consider Apple's past actions. I'm sure everyone that gave up Blizzard games will now be giving up Apple products now.
• api 7y ago
  Imagine instead that this reads "After Trump tweet, Apple removes app used by border protestors." That's exactly what this is. In a way the China thing is even worse because Apple is not a Chinese company. There is realistically more Trump could do to harm Apple than the CCP. Of course I suppose Apple has outsourced all their manufacturing to China, so there's that. I must admit a bit of schadenfreude at watching the great greed-driven amoral outsourcing rush of the past 50 years start backfiring badly as I knew it always would.
• scarface74 7y ago
  Ben Thompson of Stratechery talks about this a lot. Apple always says they want to own the most important pieces of their products but then Tim Cook when he was COO made the decision to be completely beholden to China for their manufacturing. I hope that Apple is seriously trying to diversify their supply chain out of China. It can be done at scale - Samsung moved all of their manufacturing out of Chins.
  • LeoNatan25 7y ago
    Of course, Cook is a corporate shill, not an ideologue.
    • scarface74 7y ago
      I'm not saying that Cook should diversify manufacturing for moral reasons. I am saying he should do it for purely practical reasons. But I do believe that a gay CEO who grew up in Alabama really cares about privacy.
      • adolph 7y ago
        It may be worthwhile to examine that belief. If someone cares about X because of Y, then maybe that person cares about Y and not X. If X is no longer a precondition for Y, then that person might drop X without a thought. https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/121329-purity-of-heart-is-to-will-one-thing-spiritual-preparation-for-the-offi https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/121329-purity-of-heart...
        • newen 7y ago
          It's also with the understanding that that person has a consistent set of values, and wouldn't just drop all their values for a few million more dollars.
      • LeoNatan25 7y ago
        He cares only if it costs the company nothing to care.
• gear54rus 7y ago
  It would be good to remember this moment next time some of their marketing bullshit about privacy will surface again. Their word extends no further than the next paycheck. And people still fall for it.
  • leppr 7y ago
    Privacy and freedom don't necessarily intersect. You could have a lot of privacy but no freedom in a windowless prison cell, or a lot of freedom but no privacy being homeless in the street. (not that Apple's privacy spiel ever really meant anything as a company selling internet-connected black boxes)
    • mikenew 7y ago
      You're right, but the dialogue should change from "Apple respects your privacy" to "Yeah maybe Apple respects your privacy but they don't respect your freedom". Also they host all their Chinese iCloud data on Chinese servers now. So the "privacy" marketing is pretty bullshit anyway. At best it should be "Apple respects the privacy of some of it's users at the current time, probably".
    • Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      The connection in this case is, Apple says they restrict user freedom as a way to protect user privacy.
  • kortilla 7y ago
    This doesn’t have anything to do with privacy.
  • Steltek 7y ago
    Forget the recent interest in "privacy" (competition). Who remembers the 1984 Apple Ad? It looks pretty ironic in hindsight now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSnW-ygU5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSnW-ygU5g
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• Green_man 7y ago
  "On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you'll see why 1984 won't be like '1984.'" -Apple, 1983 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(advertisement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(advertisement)
  • jkingsbery 7y ago
    "2019, on the other hand..."
  • kd3 7y ago
    Oh how times have changed!!
  • slantaclaus 7y ago
    Steve is dead. The interim CEO reigns
• sharkenstein 7y ago
  Could it be installed via the Alt Store?
• typeformer 7y ago
  The protesters should start using Waze...what will Apple do then?
  • _eht 7y ago
    Block Waze geospatially. EZPZ. [Insert Taiwan flag emoji here]
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • dang 7y ago
      HN is a plain text site, so please don't put emojis in HN comments. Unless they're plain text of course.
      • _eht 7y ago
        Alright well that ruined the context of the commentary. Unfortunate. And now I can’t edit to make an appropriate adjustment. Neat. HN will edit your comments but not let you delete your account? Interesting precedent.
        • dang 7y ago
          I've opened your GP comment for editing if you'd like to make an appropriate adjustment. Account deletion is a separate question, of course. On HN we try hard to balance individual interests, such as for privacy, with community interest, such as other people's comments not losing the context they were replying to. To judge by the reactions we hear from users, we're able to care of nearly everything that nearly everyone needs. But it does require emailing us, rather than using some mechanical feature that would just erase everything an account had ever posted.
  • bluetidepro 7y ago
    I was thinking the same thing, there is plenty of apps that you can basically do this same functionality in? Why not just move to one of those to stop this from being able to happen? And FWIW, I'm still against Apple taking down the app from the store, but just also was curious why the app was ever needed in the first place (again, cause you can do literally this on apps like Waze)?
• cowbird 7y ago
  Not my comment, but definitely my thought. I couldn't agree more! this makes me sad.... ppl think when China opened borders, we can export democracy and help make the Chinese government more liberal and democratic. Decades later, it appears to be the other way around. The west has raised a monster, instead of embracing more democratic values, it cracks down human rights, sets up re-education camps, exploits minorities, forces foreign companies to comply & self-censored, amped up surveillance and censorships while their most of its citizens couldn't care less as long as they are well-off..... Now, the west experiences Chinese export censorship & One China policy thru corporations, sports, cultures, entertainment etc because we all depend on China and they hold the life chord of many businesses and governments. It feels like a Chinese dystopia future isn't far off
• pastorhudson 7y ago
  If revealing police locations is criteria for removing an app then I guess Google Waze is next?
• mikestew 7y ago
  I'm willing to believe this is just a delay so that Apple can get their people off the mainland, and then put the app right back in the store when everyone is safe. I don't even know that that's practical, and it's probably just a dream anyway. Beats my alternative theory at the moment, however.
  • Cshelton 7y ago
    Pulling all of their people out of China, along with operations will take some time. Not a small delay. They have already started to diversify manufacturing elsewhere though.
• calibas 7y ago
  HKmap.live has a Twitter account, they've been posting frequent updates about all this: https://twitter.com/hkmaplive https://twitter.com/hkmaplive Apparently China's trying to say it's Apple's fault: https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641 https://twitter.com/TMclaughlin3/status/1182301330339184641
• planetzero 7y ago
  This shows us: 1) The problems wit ha closed/walled-garden app store. Apple has the final say and control 2) Companies like Apple are putting profits above human rights. Would the same decision have been made if Jobs were still alive? Hard to say.
• sqreept 7y ago
  They should be using Apple Maps to attack Police and then Apple should remove that shady app used obviously for no good.
• NicoJuicy 7y ago
  Just when I complimented Apple for the first time in my life. I can retract the same comment within 24 hours. How can they keep a straight face, promoting security and privacy after such a public failure, where obviously profits come first. I'm pretty sure that the Chinese bots, that gave the app a 1-star rating aren't banned at all.
  • whywhywhywhy 7y ago
    This is nothing new, in the Tim Cook era they've been overly eager to shout loudly about social issues on stage and in the press. Yet when it comes down to rich markets like this situation, the Taiwan's flag emoji being disabled or disabling the pride flag/watch face in Russia and the Middle East, these ideals go right out the window. Only happy to shout loud on these issues when there are zero repercussions about them, second it could possibly mean a dip in profits they roll over in an instant.
• Danieru 7y ago
  Democracy cannot be bought with money, so any corporation selling out a people's right to self determination for money is pure immorality. All of us who enjoy the self rule through democracy should not dismiss our hard won rights as an "opinion". The right to vote for your leader, even a "wrong leader" is an inalienable right. Oppressive regimes like China have do not have the mandate to rule. The mandate to rule comes from the people, and single part China is nothing more than the party of warlords. Yes the flashpoint is Hong Kong, but all Chinese people deserve democratic elections. Hong Kong just happens to already be legally owed these rights. The rights all humans deserve. This is not a controversial "opinion", this is the foundation upon which all modern democracies are formed. All humans deserve the right of self rule, and authority comes from the people. Many of you reading this get to say your forefathers fought for democracy. I wish I could say that, my forefathers were on the wrong side of the fight for democracy. My grand father got shot near Normandy, he was a 14 year old Nazi soldier standing watch. He was wrong to fight for the Nazis, just as any of us are wrong if we sell out another people's rights to democracy.
• impatientduck 7y ago
  Fuck Apple. sent from my iPhone
• hmart 7y ago
  Open web to the rescue.
• reaperducer 7y ago
  I find it so interesting that Apple removes an app to track police from Hong Kong, when there are any number of apps that allow people to track police, fire, ambulances, etc... still available in the American app store.
  • throw900 7y ago
    A related question: would Apple allow apps that track local law enforcement if there were active protests + direct interactions with police. As an example, imagine if there was an app allowing people to track police movements during Occupy Wall Street and a single NYPD officer so much as twisted his ankle. My guess (as a New Yorker) is that an app like that would get pulled immediately. Obviously this isn't to say it's the right move to remove the app, just that things wouldn't be so different here in America. But perhaps the protests in HK are so different in scale that the comparison falls flat.
• jonny_eh 7y ago
  They should re-publish on https://altstore.io https://altstore.io
• avatarbl 7y ago
  What do you expect Apple to do ? Pull out of China ?
• camdenlock 7y ago
  Damn. I’m a long-time Apple customer, and general fan of their dev platform, products, and services. In the back of my head, though, I’ve always had a thought: There will probably come a time when Apple does something that crosses a line for me, something that doesn’t sit well with me, and causes me to disengage from the teat. That moment appears to have finally arrived.
• taf2 7y ago
  Why does this need to be an app? Can’t this all be built into a web page?
• alkonaut 7y ago
  Can’t this app just be a web app? I assume it’s a central web backend that the app uses?
• stuffbyspencer 7y ago
  1- EU can tell Facebook to remove posts WORLDWIDE due to a politician's hurt feelings. 2- Blizzard bans you for speaking your mind. 3- Apple removes apps that support your right to freedom. ...I'm waiting for when we cross the line into "fuck this, something needs to change" because, for me, that was 3 actions ago.
• parliament32 7y ago
  This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android. If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturers. It's certain nice that Dell pre-loads Windows 10 on their laptops, but if I want to run Linux, I can. >but I want my phone to just work You also have the freedom to stay in the walled garden. The difference is you have to option to run different software if you so choose, and having that freedom is so much more important to me than how slick the UI is or how good the ecosystem is. I don't own any Apple products, although I was strongly considering switching to iPhone a few years back. These recent developments confirm that I definitely made the right choice staying with Android.
  • __m 7y ago
    Why? You want to meddle in politics of foreign countries?
    • arghwhat 7y ago
      Not as much "meddle in politics of foreign countries" as "help fellow humans avoid disasters".
    • parliament32 7y ago
      Because I know my phone won't betray me if I end up getting into a situation like these protesters. I own it, it'll run the code I want, full stop.
    • NicoJuicy 7y ago
      1 country, 2 systems. But one is not keeping it's promise obviously.
    • gadabout 7y ago
      This seems like a purposely antagonistic comment? The user was stating how freedom is much more entangled into our everyday purchase and use of our devices. Also, what happens to your mindset when the "foreign countries" are no longer foreign and now domestic?
• rayiner 7y ago
  This is an app protestors use to protect themselves from police. There is no legitimate business reason to remove this app, except for making it easier for police to hurt protestors. That makes Apple complicit in any harm that results. (You can sell guns or poisonous chemicals that have legitimate uses, but you can’t sell them to someone you know will use them to commit crimes.) Imagine if we had apps during the Holocaust, and Apple removed an app being used by Jewish hideaways to communicate. We’re dangerously close to that.
• jchook 7y ago
  The Chinese government sure has given the Hong Kong protesters a lot of free press (no pun intended)
• ishikawa 7y ago
  If their customers want it, it should not be removed.
  • the-pigeon 7y ago
    Beyond that there's a fundamental issue that app store monopolies should be illegal. All marketplaces need competition. Apple doesn't have the right to choose what I get to install on my phone.
• dosy 7y ago
  Because we should support violent offenders just because now, because they're "against China" now, even if they're ignorant, illegal and misinformed? Who's using who with your support for this?
• NicoJuicy 7y ago
  It's weird. Apple censors Apps. The Ccp censors app contents, from approved apps. So, who is really in charge then...
• to-too-two 7y ago
  Hong Kong, don’t ever forget when Apple turned its back on you.
• wtmt 7y ago
  Side loading of apps is a necessity in iOS/iPadOS/tvOS. I hope the various lawsuits on Apple's controls have some effect on this. I understand the benefits of the control Apple currently has, but it's inappropriate for our needs as a society. Same goes for right to repair. I believe Apple is on the wrong side of history on both these counts (at a minimum).
• kerkeslager 7y ago
  It appears they have a web interface[1]. Is this interface still available to protestors? Is there a way we can support them? [1] https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/
• excursionist 7y ago
  When you buy a closed device that you can only partially control this is what you sign up for. The only reason this can happen is because the people who this affects, materially support Apple in their ability to do this. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computing.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/keep-control-of-your-computin...
• ycombonator 7y ago
  What if China pressures Cloudflare, Akamai, AWS ? Where does this end ?
• duiker101 7y ago
  And 2 days ago I got down voted for making the point that Apple is trying to slowly put macOS users in the same cage by nagging developers and pushing them to their crappy store.
  • Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    In this regard, macOS works almost exactly how I wish the iPhone worked. Apple makes a curated app store available to users which they monitor for security and privacy violations, and they prevent the execution of unsigned code. However, users can allow unsigned apps with a quick Terminal command, and even grant them low-level privileges like kernel access with a somewhat less-quick Terminal command.
    • duiker101 7y ago
      For now, yes, but it is clear that Apple is trying to change this, little by little, they make it harder and harder until being outside of the App Store will be so bad that they will eventually kill it. It's not something they can do in one day, but they definitely want to get there.
• jaspergilley 7y ago
  Part of the problem when phones are inherently locked down. If you can't run the software you want on a device you've purchased, it's not really your device.
• totaldude87 7y ago
  How come https://hkmap.live/ https://hkmap.live/ is still online while the app cannot? if GCF(Great china firewall) can block Quartz, they can block this URL as well right? thank god we still have an open web where few websites can still be there and not inside a walled garden..
  • gmoot 7y ago
    Hong Kong is not behind the GCF.
• zepto 7y ago
  Apple has obviously compromised themselves here because they are dependent on the good graces of the CCP for their manufacturing, and have caved to pressure. I don’t think that is in question. It seems like any company that does something the CCP dislikes is going to face this kind of pressure, and if even Apple can’t resist, the nobody can. Google obviously chose not to participate in that market at all. I see a lot of criticism of Apple here, which seems quite reasonable. That leads me to be curious what people think an acceptable level of participation in the Chinese economy actually is? Is Google’s move - I.e. exciting entirely - the only ethical option?
• La-ang 7y ago
  I am guessing if iOs is still prone to jailbreaks Apple can blacklist all they can. Is Appcake still around?
• wishinghand 7y ago
  Would AltStore be able to help them out?
• kd3 7y ago
  All these companies in the west seem to be so very eager to bend over and spread their butt-cheeks for the criminal Chinese government. It's all about the money it seems.
• buboard 7y ago
  If a revolution relies significantly on the App Store to succeed, then maybe its not really a revolution? Hopefully they 've found alternatives in the open web. And maybe people will learn a lesson about the dangers of walled gardens.
• castratikron 7y ago
  Seems like a good use case for the FDroid Nearby feature, host apps on your phone and let other people download them. Make the whole thing FOSS and all of a sudden it's a lot harder to block. https://f-droid.org/en/tutorials/swap/ https://f-droid.org/en/tutorials/swap/
• chvid 7y ago
  Isn't it just a wrapped website? You can just browse it directly at: https://hkmap.live https://hkmap.live
• kumarharsh 7y ago
  But the app was also being used to track the whereabouts of law enforcement officers, and the HK rioters have not exactly been peaceful. I'm not usually on Apple's side. Their holier-than-thou marketing speak, walled garden and crippled Safari browser are enough to send me to an early grave with blood pressure. But I think Apple might be correct in this particular instance given the fraught nature of the situation there.
  • keyme 7y ago
    This is NOT a matter for a private company to decide on. That's the issue here.
• tikiman163 7y ago
  The whining about Apple is astounding. Nearly everyone complaining about the lack of freedom of choice in here has an android phone and just wants to smarm it up. We get it, you warned them about the possibility of Apple doing this, only that was never your point before. It's always been about the freedom to develop without having to pay to do so. The fact the end user side was locked on certain settings has never been about the possibility that Apple could remove apps to aid a government agenda. Personally I use Android too, but I'm a developer and never liked Apple's development ecosystem. My point is the end user signed a terms of use when the bought the phone and the majority of people complaining about this issue didn't buy one because they didn't want to agree to it. The majority of the whining going on here is no different than straight guys complaining about the existence of gay guys. The issue doesn't affect you, and your opinions are getting annoying.
• vegan_zaddy 7y ago
  Removing this app was the only logical solution. Keeping it on the store would have only added fuel to the fire. An app like this would be catastrophic for any community, Hong Kong or not. Keeping it on the App store would have allowed anyone to evade law enforcement and add even more damage that has already been done by the rioters.
• kup0 7y ago
  Is there any truth to Apple's claims in their statement regarding why they removed it? EDIT- good questioning of Apple's reasoning: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live-email https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/10/10/cook-hkmap-live...
• pgt 7y ago
  I wonder what China threatened Apple with? Because this makes me want to not buy another iPhone. Sorry Apple, you can't bet on both sides of the same coin.
• nyxtom 7y ago
  Don’t forget the Quartz app as well
• andromeduck 7y ago
  Tim purportedly sent this out today, found it on reddit: You have likely seen the news that we made the decision to remove an app from the App Store entitled HKmap.live. These decisions are never easy, and it is harder still to discuss these topics during moments of furious public debate. It's out of my great respect for the work you do every day that I want to share the way we went about making this decision. It is no secret that technology can be used for good or for ill. This case is no different. The app in question allowed for the crowdsourced reporting and mapping of police checkpoints, protest hotspots, and other information. On its own, this information is benign. However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present. This use put the app in violation of Hong Kong law. Similarly, widespread abuse clearly violates our App Store guidelines barring personal harm. We built the App Store to be a safe and trusted place for every user. It's a responsibility that we take very seriously, and it's one that we aim to preserve. National and international debates will outlive us all, and, while important, they do not govern the facts. In this case, we thoroughly reviewed them, and we believe this decision best protects our users. https://imgur.com/2pkIFNu https://imgur.com/2pkIFNu
• neop1x 7y ago
  That is a good reminder of the closeness of this ecosystem. Is it really your device when you can't install your app on it? Ditch it! Hopefully protesters have enough people with Androids... there are less and less reasons to use iPhone now that Androids are pretty mature. It's sad that iOS still doesn't even support royalty-free WEBM/VP9 because
• BLKNSLVR 7y ago
  Is this the same Apple that received tariff exemptions for items imported from China? https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/30/apple-mac-pro-us-manufacturing/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/30/apple-mac-pro-us-manufacturin... Looks like Apple are getting to have their cake and eat it too. It's good business for the moment, but the wire they're dancing on seems to be getting thinner by the day.
• mirimir 7y ago
  This will sound crazy, I know. And I'm 90% sure that it's unworkable. But I gotta ask. I've read that virtual iOS machines are available for testing apps. Tight access control, I know. But ... So with a beefy iPhone or tablet, could one run a tweaked iOS VM? The host machine would handle Interactions with the cell network and Apple. And the virtual iOs would handle userland and apps. And it could be tweaked to work with a different company, use a different app store, etc. Basically be independent from Apple. With it's own FDE etc. It'd basically be a bunch of libraries, utilities and apps to install. Would that be possible? I suppose that it would require liberating considerablr source from Apple.
• deleted 7y ago
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