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Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says
- littlestymaar 7y agoSo the problem is not bad habits from consumers or the over-use of disposable plastic containers, it's some rogue Chinese ships. How convenient.
- realradicalwash 7y agohere is a breakdown of the country of origin under the waterways theory: https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AV462_OCEANS_9U_20150212130916.jpg https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AV462_OCEANS_9... I am not sure the new research is letting consumers completely off the hook. their garbage could well show up in the big whirlpools in a few years. but the new data is suggesting that there is another source of how the plastics entered the ocean and it's probably ships, yes.
- afiori 7y agoThe question is not if those are bad, the question is where does that plastic come from. over-use of disposable plastic is bad independently from whether it ends in the ocean or not. But if you want to reduce this specific pollution you need to actually understand where it comes from.
- littlestymaar 7y agoThere are two different things at stake here. 1. The study. Scientific work is essential to the understanding of the dynamics of ocean pollutions. Nothing to criticize here. 2. The press coverage. Interestingly enough, it comes from a French media. You're probably not aware of that if you don't live in France (especially because of the big marketing stance on environmental issues Macron is taking of the international scene) but there is a huge reactionary movement against environmental policies nowadays in the medias in France. This article, and the editorial angle taken around the study, completely fits into that (worrysome) trend.
- mc32 7y agoWonder if this will have an impact on plastic straw bans on land. It was always a feel-good hi-viz, low-impact measure given little evidence behind the measures.
- mumblemumble 7y agoOr even the context. A coffee shop in my neighborhood started keeping straws behind the counter, so that you have to ask for them. And yet, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that there's less plastic in a straw than in a disposable coffee cup, let alone the doubled cups that they serve the coffee in in lieu of using those paper sleeves. Certainly after they've stuck one of those plastic sippy lids on top of the whole affair. If they're worried about their waste stream, that's the place to start.
- mc32 7y agoMany will have paper straws as substitutes, but I’m very skeptical they did a study regarding cradle-to-grave impact of the substitution. Maybe they are net positive (results wise), but I doubt they looked at numbers and said, yes, clearly paper straws are less impactful.
- scottLobster 7y agoI imagine it's similar to the grocery bag situation. Reusable cotton canvas bags keep plastic out of the environment, but their production emits thousands of times more CO2 per bag than disposable plastic bags. If you buy groceries once a week, you basically have to use the cotton canvas bags the rest of your life to even have a chance at breaking even, everything's a trade-off.
- noselasd 7y agoAren't there better materials to make the resuable bags out of than cotton ? Also, you can reuse the plastic bags.
- tomweingarten 7y agoMost of this comes from a single type of ship waste: "Half of the great Pacific garbage patch is made up of fishing nets, by weight, according to a report published last year in Scientific Reports."
- irrational 7y agoSo the ocean is being overfished and is being polluted by fishing. The clear answer is to ban fishing. Though, as someone who dislikes all seafood, this is easy for me to say.
- StavrosK 7y agoSeafood haters unite! You're the only other person I've ever found who doesn't like seafood, I feel like we should form a club or something.
- pluc 7y agoThere are dozens of us
- detritus 7y agoSmells like death to me.
- jdnenej 7y agoMost raw meat smells disgusting.
- reggintoggaf 7y agoRaw horse is tasty.
- viraptor 7y agoFresh fish has barely any smell. You won't smell fish in a reasonable quality sushi train place for example. It's only if you don't preserve it well for hours that it starts to stink.
- is_true 7y agoAnyone that lives in a city next to a river/lake/sea knows that all the small pieces of trash on land end up in the water.
- mc32 7y agoMostly in places with no regulation or poor regulation enforcement —at least since the “Don’t mess with Texas” days.
- sp332 7y agoThat's still a small amount of trash compared to what gets intentionally dumped in the ocean, plus abandoned commercial-scale fishing equipment.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- notacoward 7y agoYes, but "in the water" includes both shallow water near shore and deep water far out in the ocean. The OP is about one. You're talking about the other, which might not even be relevant, so the "anyone knows" condescension is misplaced.
- MiroF 7y agoWhat do you mean might not even be relevant? Is there some hidden reason we should be focusing on deep sea plastics only?
- notacoward 7y agoIt's not hidden. It's what the OP is about. It's right there in the title - ocean plastic waste, not coastal. Pollution on or near shore is absolutely an important issue, but there are thousands of important issues that are not germane to this conversation.
- latchkey 7y agoI've traveled the entire coastline of Vietnam and much of Cambodia. It is entirely covered in plastic trash. There is even plastic in all the rivers way up in the mountains. I can't imagine this just being Chinese ships.
- mister_hn 7y ago"probably"
- flywithdolp 7y agoThe word probably always make me think whenever the person who write/say it is saying the truth Probably the best beer the world.... We know it it's not
- rantwasp 7y agoThis is known. The number I have heard floated around is 45%. So, commercial fishing nets are a big problem when it comes to plastic in the oceans. And here we are "saving the planet", by reducing the plastic straw consumption: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/07/18/anti-straw-movement-based-unverified-statistic-500-million-day/750563002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/07/18/anti-straw-mo... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-07/plastic-straws-aren-t-the-problem https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-07/plasti... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-ban-fact-check-nyt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-b... Mental gymnastics at its best: > “Whether it’s 500 million or 500 a day, we shouldn’t lose sight of the real issue: Straws should be disposed of properly and should never, ever be littered on land or in waterways,” she said.
- MichaelApproved 7y agoAnd here you are creating a straw man argument. Reducing straws won’t “save the planet” on its own. We will improve the planet by doing multiple things. Reducing plastic use (less packaging, fewer straws, reusable shopping bags) all play a role in a much bigger effort.
- ibeckermayer 7y agoExcept that’s not improving the planet even a bit — chances are, every one of those straws being used in an American city would end up in a well run landfill and have minimal impact on the environment. It’s yet another example of knuckle dragging elites using state force to virtue signal. Meanwhile the real sources of the problem get ignored.
- athenot 7y ago> chances are, every one of those straws being used in an American city would end up in a well run landfill My front yard disagrees. It's adjacent to a somewhat busy road, and straws are part of the debris I have to routinely clean up (along with various wrappers and cigarette butts).
- weiming 7y agoExtensive air pollution from China or India that surpasses the West also doesn't seem to get much attention, e.g. [1] [2] Greta visited the US and gave some compelling speeches. Will she visit China and India and do the same? [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/#3ee0b6bc628c https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-... [2] https://qz.com/india/1581665/indias-carbon-emissions-growing-faster-than-us-china-says-iea/ https://qz.com/india/1581665/indias-carbon-emissions-growing...
- irishloop 7y agoMy guess is Greta focuses on people who can actually be influenced. Americans have access to a free press and information about how we use our energy or pollute. And being the richest nation in the world, we certainly have some responsibility for how we live our lives and the effects it has on the Earth. Communicating with China and having the ability to effectively influence their policy is a much more difficult task.
- kenny_r 7y ago> Greta visited the US[...] Yes, to address the United Nations.
- mc32 7y ago...don’t forget the opportunistic appearance before Congress.
- NeedMoreTea 7y agoIt's undoubtedly some mix of "all of the above", thanks to plastic being everywhere and used in nearly everything. We save the ocean by requiring "all of the above" to act differently. Ships, shipping, fishing, recycling, nations, individuals. Most especially producers.
- dubliner2077 7y agoSure if they dump it to the sea!
- chappi42 7y agoI don't believe this. -- About two years ago there was a study which said that 88 to 95 percent of the total global load of plastics in the oceans [edit: wrong see below] would come from 10 rivers: - https://phys.org/news/2017-10-plastic-rivers-stem-plastics-ocean.html https://phys.org/news/2017-10-plastic-rivers-stem-plastics-o... - https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611 and link to table https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611/tables/1 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611/tables/1 Still, of course, fishermen shouldn't throw their plastic bottles over board and better care to their fishing nets.
- areyousure 7y agoFrom your own source: > Now scientists have found that 10 rivers around the world where plastic waste is mismanaged contribute to most of the oceans' total loads THAT COME FROM RIVERS. (emphasis mine)
- vfc1 7y agoI mean one thing does not take away from the other, it's necessary to stop wasting so many fish nets, AND reduce single-use plastics, AND fish less, etc. It's not OR it's AND. This leads to reasoning like "it's fishing nets the actual issue, I might as well continue throwing a full trash can full of packages every 3 days". It's not true, fishing nets is actually only 45%, the other 55% we can still work on that's a lot, it's the majority. Another way is to just stop eating fish. In my local supermarket, if I want to buy 4 peaches they come in a plastic container wrapped in a transparent plastic sheet, not kidding.
- rantwasp 7y agoagree that we have to work on multiple things, but the point was that a disproportionate amount of resources are placed behind getting rid of something that is a drop in the bucket. it's not "should we get rid of A or B?" We agree it's A and B, but we need to focus on the thing that has the bigger impact first.
- vfc1 7y ago> we need to focus on the thing that has the bigger impact first Why is this, why wait to solve the fishing net problems before taking other measures? I see this line of thought a lot here in Hacker News, especially in topics related to climate change for example. These things can and should be tackled in parallel at the same time. We can all take responsibility personally, how about trying to use less single-use plastics, buy in local grocery shops more with reusable bags, and stop eating fish? We can all do that, we don't need to wait for some international fishing committee to decide for years on what is the best way to change the rules on how nets can be made or handled.
- zamadatix 7y agoEveryone everywhere could change thousands of things about their daily lives and things would be perfect. This has been true since the dawn of time. It's never happened and most don't think it's realistic for it to suddenly happen now. This is why people want to focus change on the things that matter the most first, they know not everything is going to change. That being said if anyone is up for the challenge personally go for it! That's completely different than wondering why society as a whole focuses on impactful problems first.
- paulgerhardt 7y agoI spend a day or two every year cleaning up a beach on a island off the coast of China. Its location relative to local sea currents makes it a natural garbage trap. It has been a radicalizing experience but maybe not in the way you would think. Anecdotally about a third of the trash I pick up is fishing related - some nets, some buoys, but mostly thousands of small plastic sardine sized fishing net floats. About a third is one-time use food packaging related - soda and water bottles mainly, but also so many bags for snacks, or tangentially cleaning bottles for hands/dishes. We could do better making less plastic waste with each meal. Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. And the last third is various forms of hydrocarbon foams. This last one kills me because I see foams everywhere in the supply chain for consumer goods. TVs are shipped out in white styrofoam. Chips are shipped in with pink styrofoam. If it’s fragile lab equipment it gets shipped in a box three times it’s size full of packing peanut foam. Every product in the room you are in probably generated an equivalent volume of foam during its production. The foam lasts forever. I refuse to use it for anything we package and glad to see it phased out. I would much prefer biodegradable paper like pulps to foam. As I understand the chemicals used to make hard paper bowls and straws may be their own kind of nasty endocrine disrupters but for all other packaging purposes, yes please. Less foam, more paper. Especially if some tweaks we can make packaging a carbon sink.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- specialist 7y agoPaper is an amazing technology. Were I king, I'd massively fund R&D to bring new sources of fiber to market. Make them competitive with wood pulp. Hemp, bamboo, sugar cane, feed corn. Maybe even invasive (noxious) weeds like kudzu. Two birds, one stone. Extra credit for non till harvesting techniques. Just mow those hemp fields. Then do it all again in three months.
- reaperducer 7y agoI recently learned that many of the things we make out of plastic today were once made of paper. I don't mean bags and plates and stuff. I mean big things like tables, and reusable bowls, and snuff boxes. A lot of them can still be found in antique shops 150 years later.
- tda 7y agoI sometimes see biodegradable packing peanuts that resemble tasteless Cheese puffs used as alternative. So much better, I wonder why the styrofoam puffs are even still allowed. Another side note, look at this sign that I've seen aboard vessels: https://vesselplacards.com/product/garbage-overboard-marpol-sign/ https://vesselplacards.com/product/garbage-overboard-marpol-... It basically states "Don't throw garbage overboard, You could be breaking the law" as if it being illegal should be the only reason not to dump your waste in the environment.
- benj111 7y ago"resemble tasteless Cheese puffs" Resemble in looks or taste?
- jjjensen90 7y agoLook AND taste. They are starch-based, biodegradable and nontoxic. Not very tasty but I've tried one!
- jadell 7y agoBoth. They're made of corn starch, which is what puffy Cheetos are made of, and manufactured literally the same way, except without the cheese flavor powder mixed in. They taste like "nothing" (well, they probably taste like pure corn starch but I've never eaten that so I don't have a reference.) Source: a member of my immediate family worked at a company that manufactured them and brought home many samples. We'd freak people out by eating them. The joke was always "What do you pack packing material in for shipping?"
- lngnmn1 7y agoRivers, fucking idiots, it comes from rivers, like Ganges, which is literally a sever.
- BurnGpuBurn 7y agoAren't there some laws prohibiting this kind of behavior? I mean, willingly and purposely dumping tons of plastic waste in the ocean should be a crime everywhere no? Can't do that with oil, why is it permitted with plastic? Well, at least it's another group added to my list of people we could do without.
- EGreg 7y agoProbably?
- imagetic 7y agoI recall reading two years ago several reports which claimed that around 90% of all the plastic in the world's oceans flows there through just 10 rivers. > "The shipping and fishing industries also play a part. In 2018 researchers found that, in terms of weight, almost half of the plastic in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch -- a notorious area of floating trash three times the size of France -- was made up of fishing nets. On the other hand, microplastics made up 94% of the estimated 1.8 trillion tiny pieces floating in the area." https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/24/health/plastic-pollution-rivers-oceans-scn-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/24/health/plastic-pollution-rive... Most of the time all the stats don't add up, but either way, humanity leaves a big mess and plastic is probably one of those materials we will regret inventing.
- titzer 7y agoI have always been skeptical of this claim. I have seen the Pacific ocean trash problem firsthand; did a lot of beach cleanups. I simply do not believe that 8 million tons of plastic entering the oceans every year is flowing out through rivers from land. Given this new theory I actually suspect that some significant fraction of the plastic waste we were shipping to China for "recycling" was instead being dumped directly into the ocean midway. It'd be cheaper, and it'd be hard to get caught. Given today's greed, I have little doubt this happened.
- xsmasher 7y agoThat study was WIDELY reported on, and most of the reporting was faulty. For example this article says 'around 90% of all the plastic in the world's oceans flows there through just 10 rivers.' But that isn't what the study says - the study only deals with plastic that comes from rivers, not all plastic in the ocean.
- alex_duf 7y agoIt sounds like a great way to avoid bearing the responsibility. Better, we can now point our finger at someone else.
- cwkoss 7y agoIt is interesting that so much of the discussion of meat consumption and climate change has been centered around cows and other terrestrial animals. I'm curious if anyone knows of a good source that compares the greenhouse gas emissions from fishing vs land-based livestock.
- specialist 7y agoWhat about the military (navies) too? I'm just now reminded of stories from a guy who served on a troopship. The waste and pollution was staggering. Dumping fuel, garbage, bilge water. Expending all your ration of ammo, killing the porpoises riding the bow wave, so that you don't have to unload all that ammo later.
- codesushi42 7y agoThe pointless use of plastic is astounding. Just the other day I was sorting through electronic cables that were individually packaged in their own plastic bags. What the fuck was the point? Even the actual connector pins had their own dedicated plastic covers, and the cable was tied with a plastic tie. Yet the plastic bags were somehow still needed? Jesus fucking Christ.
- knodi123 7y agoThe reason is that each cable in its own package is a separate SKU, purchased from a separate supplier, and tossed one-per on an assembly line that is filling the box you finally received. I suspect that if, say, samsung or nintendo was told to stop putting bags on every single cable, they'd just add a step to their assembly line for snipping open the existing bags and tossing them in the garbage. The real solution will be (as usual) more complex than you'd guess at first, and I don't have a good idea for where you'd start. Maybe find the point in the supply chain where these baggies are first introduced and add a tax on them at that point?
- codesushi42 7y agoThat may be true, but in this case all of the cables were the same and from the same manufacturer. There was no reason why the plastic bags were needed. None.
- laughinghan 7y agoTo be fair, that would still be an improvement because we could make them isolate those bags and recycle or burn for energy or something. It is by comparison impossible to control what consumers do with those bags.
- undersuit 7y ago>if, say, samsung or nintendo was told to stop putting bags on every single cable... Maybe, until they can rework the contract with the supplier to just receive the cables unpackaged.
- tracker1 7y agoHow long can we keep giving China, India etc a pass? And ourselves in allowing this level of irresponsible trade to happen? We're busy panicking about "climate change" in terms of something that is going to end the world in a dozen years, it probably isn't... That said, pollution in and of itself should be a goal in terms of not doing it, and not trading with nations that do. As it is, there are cities in the U.S. I pretty much avoid or won't go to because the air quality is so bad that I can't stand being there. People need to stop with the boogie-man scare tactics pushing a political agenda and actually start concentrating on the very real issues that should be higher order priorities.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
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- TheGrassyKnoll 7y agoGo to virtually any parking lot and notice all the crap that's littered all over it. Most of it will end up in the ocean eventually. (not to mention all the crap in every street gutter)
- jxramos 7y agoAre there actual photos of the great pacific garbage patch? I've heard about it for sometime now but it seems a lot of the photos on image search depict small scale stuff, garbage visibly close to shore, or illustrations. I was disappointed to find Wikipedia didn't have any direct birds eye view of the patch in any photos. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch I see a lot of illustrations depicting the scale of the patch but is the reason there are no actual photos because the flotsam density is too low to be picked up by a camera at the necessary height to capture a large area of it? What's the deal?
- slavik81 7y agoFrom your link: > Despite the common public perception of the patch existing as giant islands of floating rubbish, its low density (4 particles per cubic meter) prevents detection by satellite imagery, or even by casual boaters or divers in the area. > This is because the patch is a widely dispersed area consisting primarily of suspended "fingernail-sized or smaller bits of plastic", often microscopic, particles in the upper water column.
- jxramos 7y agoNice find!
- mraudiobook_com 7y agoSorry. I did a stint in the US Navy, stationed on a Japanese boat for 6 months out of the year. We threw out trash overboard once a week at the furthest from land part of our patrol. I have pictures of our trash trailing into the distance. We were supposed to only dump biodegradable but also, who wants to keep rotting plastic food wrappers onboard for months at a time?
- superfreek 7y agoOne of the problems with this, is that consumers are given no choice in packing material. I just bought a new TV. The TV had the protective sticky plastic, and was wrapped in plastic. Each individual component came in a plastic bag and then all in one larger bag. All properly disposed of by local regulations. The fault then somehow falls onto the consumer if it ends up in the ocean? Taxing companies based on it seems like a trade dispute as most are not US companies. We've seen how easily those are won.