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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

628 points by nodea2345 7y ago

tkifnn 7y ago
Yes government, please take away my ar-15.
Clubber 7y ago
People don't think this sort of thing can happen in the US. Just look at what the federal, state and local government does to people it doesn't like now.
- cdiddy2 7y ago
  it has happened in the US many times. The most obvious example is Kent State
  - chapium 7y ago
    People defending pepper spraying kids (protesting) sitting on a sidewalk...
- chapium 7y ago
  It can happen anywhere because fundamentally we are very tribal in nature. It is very easy in our minds to objectify nonmembers and treat them inhumanely.
- PostPost 7y ago
  1. Everyone that's read the news in the last few years knows this young people can be shot by police in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice 2. This link is about what's happening in Hong Kong, not the US, and this sort of what-about-ism isn't informative or helpful.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    It also doesn't make sense. The shooting of Tamir Rice may have been an accident, or racism, or the pernicious combination that occurs when systemic racism results in more "accidents" against people of color. None of those things are in play in Hong Kong.
  - cdmckay 7y ago
    I think it is helpful because it’s asking for consistency. People are (rightfully) outraged when a protestor dies in Hong Kong, but protestors also die in the US. For example, the Kent State shootings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings The point is that if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well.
    - PostPost 7y ago
      And you assume that people are not outraged when protesters die in the US? Did you even read the very article you quoted? "There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of 4 million students,[10] and the event further affected public opinion, at an already socially contentious time, over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War." Yes, America has serious, serious problems with police violence. But pointing out injustice does not necessitate bringing up every other similar instance of injustice. It is not helpful, and distracts from the issue at hand.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well America not being a dictatorship, there are people demanding this. Through elected leaders. Through independent courts. Through Constitutionally-protected assembly and protest. None of the above apply in China. And they’re rapidly eroding in Hong Kong, too. Yes, we should be outraged by police violence in America. But it’s a matchstick to the blast furnace that is Xi’s regime of secret police, political repression and concentration camps.
- nicoburns 7y ago
  As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. The US police seem incredibly violent and often unprovoked.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. A police officer shooting somebody that is physically attacking them with a metal club in a violent riot that involves firebombs being thrown at police officers? I would neither be surprised nor worried if that happened in the US. Now, if they just opened fire at unarmed, peaceful protestors, I'd be worried (though not surprised that much).
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      This wouldn't be expected behaviour in the UK. Our riot police carry shields, not guns.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        Comparably to China in HK might be UK in Northern Ireland. I do remember them being somewhat less de-escalating than you make it sound. In any case, you mentioned it happening in the US, that's what I was commenting on. I cannot imagine US cops not using their guns when attacked in that way. There is a point to be made about general strategies and not letting it escalate to the point where protesters throw molotov cocktails on police, but I don't know that either UK or US cops would simply disengage and give up parts of town to mob rule.
- swarnie_ 7y ago
  > People don't think this sort of thing can happen in the US Yes we do. Its one of the reasons i avoid visiting the US besides the obvious TSA/Immigration controls.
easytiger 7y ago
Obviously China is evil etc etc. But isn't it pretty obvious these people are physically attacking armed officers as they are retreating? And they are beating up and kicking another downed officer in the head? Whilst I might have sympathy for their cause the kid struck an armed officer with a weapon whilst he wielded a gun as his friends beat another armed officer. I have very little sympathy for anyone who makes such poor decisions in a group delerium of impunity. Edit: If anyone downvoting would care to offer another option, that would be appreciated
- marliechiller 7y ago
  i think i saw yesterday though that the Government there is infiltrating the protest groups with agent provocateurs so i dont know what to believe anymore
  - easytiger 7y ago
    Entirely irrelevant as there is a video of the kid hitting a police officer with his gun drawn. This is entirely self inflicted. There is no strategic advantage to physically attacking a police officer in this context. It didn't further a cause in any conflict. If you go and hit someone with a gun pointed at you it is undeniable that the person acted in self defence. I hate to be defending these things, but the hypocrisy and hyperbole are unhelpful in understanding the truth
    - tyingq 7y ago
      The video. Pretty clear he's swinging something that looks like a pipe or a wooden stick. Not the full context, and I imagine the police have things to answer for. But swinging a stick/pipe at an armed person isn't wise. https://www.facebook.com/hkucampustv/videos/542398913195804/?v=542398913195804 https://www.facebook.com/hkucampustv/videos/542398913195804/...
    - gleenn 7y ago
      While I would expect repercussions when swinging at police, I think being physically present in confrontation shows a level of commitment that a weaker protest movement might not show. Sure, if you die you aren't going to be protesting any longer, but that doesn't mean it has no strategic value as perhaps the only option a protester might see is violent escalation.
dx87 7y ago
Not to defend what the police have been doing overall during this protest, but in this specific incident you can see the protestors beating a police officer on the ground, and the protestor who got shot was swinging a metal pipe at the police officer that shot him.
- sigzero 7y ago
  Context is everything.
- nodea2345 7y ago
  Full context is police officers often beat protests during arresting. Sometimes they just fight each other. Anyway, I think the officer have better choices than attempting to kill the kid(shot in chest is obvious willing to kill).
  - LandR 7y ago
    I think anytime you shoot a gun at one someone you are shooting to kill, shoot to maim feels like it would be practically impossible outside of movies. But I might be wrong, I've never shot a gun.
    - geggam 7y ago
      This concept you can shoot to maim is silly. Hitting a man is hard if you practice shooting. In a chaotic situation with adrenaline its even harder. Shooting to hit is all you can do.
      - jacobush 7y ago
        The police in Sweden is trained to shoot to maim, but only in somewhat controlled situations, such as someone wielding a knife approaching officers from a distance. First warn verbally, then fire a warning shot, then fire at the legs. When there is no margin left, fire to stop. (Which means in practice, often death.) https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/hur-ofta-anvander-polisen-skjutvapen/ https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befog...
program_whiz 7y ago
Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to take all property rights and freedoms like that -- I think taking to the streets, and even resorting to violence might be necessary (otherwise the powers-that-be have no reason to listen to a bunch of people standing in a street hundreds of miles away).
- TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
  You said yourself that the government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If that's the case, doesn't that make the protesters assault a senseless assault? What were they trying to accomplish when they were beating the officer?
- schuke 7y ago
  I’m from the mainland and totally with HK’s cause. But I do think the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement. If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed. If they don’t, it seems to me there’s enough space for peaceful protests, which can be even more effectual in many ways. And the people of Hong Kong have shown an incredible amount of creativity in non-violent protests. The kid is so young he shouldn’t be involved in such violence. I hope he will make a full recovery.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement Judgement is complicated by documented evidence of undercover Hong Kong police dressing up as protesters and acting like belligerent idiots [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-pr...
    - 7y ago
peter_retief 7y ago
https://twitter.com/Piet00065526/status/1179025357959237639/photo/1 https://twitter.com/Piet00065526/status/1179025357959237639/...
nvahalik 7y ago
> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".
- swarnie_ 7y ago
  Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert? The point is to increase the cost of violence against the population. The Swiss bunker / guerrilla strategy. Also, there is no reason to suspect asymmetric vectors like autonomous drone armies would accrue solely to state actors.
    - ixtli 7y ago
      In my experience when these people are made the least bit uncomfortable in any social situation they immediately call the police. They're not who they pretend to be online.
      - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
        Ironic, their first inclination is to call people who have the "murder guns" that they complain heavily about.
        close04 7y ago
        Because they represent authority and the law just like in any other country. The fact that LEOs carry guns is because they are surrounded by a lot of other individuals who are unable to take smart decisions while wielding a deadly firearm. Your statement is forced just to make the point. I don't think the gun control topic was ever related to law enforcement or military personnel carrying guns. It's more about having guns easily accessible to violent and repeat offenders, mentally unstable people, etc.
foobarian 7y ago
Great Britain gave HK back to China. They can do with it as they please - unfortunately I don't see how the protesters can come out on the right side of this without a revolution. Thought experiment: if say Rhode Island had a Muslim majority and they voted themselves Sharia law in violation of federal articles, how cavalier would the federal government / the rest of the populous be in tolerating this?
- pimmen 7y ago
  A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? Hong Kong didn't choose the CCP who didn't even exist yet when the lease was signed. They sure as hell didn't choose to lose their rights to a fair trial and freedom of expression either. So, if you do a thought experiment about protests against the government, keep in mind that the government in question commits some of the worst human rights abuses today.
  - UIZealot 7y ago
    > A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? That's a very poor analogy. Hong Kong citizens already enjoy the benefit of an independent legal system and don't have to live like mainland citizens. > They sure as hell didn't choose to lose their rights to a fair trial and freedom of expression either. They sure didn't. And they sure haven't lost those rights.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      The protest was about the prospect of losing those rights, starting with being subject to mainland laws through extradition. The protest has then expanded to being against the CCP undermining ”one country, two systems” in general, an example of which would be Gui Minhai who’s serving time for a book he published in Hong Kong. So, I would say the analogy is still apt. The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against.
tmux314 7y ago
This is not the first time the HKPF has used overt force on a protester, just the first time it has done so publicly. Several protesters have already been "disappeared", and there are many stories coming out of brutal torture against activists. If Beijing authorities have learned one thing from Tiananmen Square, it's that in the internet age violent suppression must happen in private places, where it cannot be recorded by someone's cellphone and shared instantly with the world. Public acts of violence is a PR nightmare and only fans the flames of dissent. This event will only harden HKers more. In the short term it might prevent mainstream protesters from taking to the streets out of fear of violence. But it will make the average HKer more resentful of Beijing's long arm and empower radical factions. And there are many ways to weaken a government's control outside of public protest. EDIT: Protester is in critical condition. He was not killed.
- radmarshallb 7y ago
  As of this writing the protester in question was injured, not killed.
  - tmux314 7y ago
    Fixed. Thanks.
- bhy 7y ago
  > Several protesters have already been "disappeared", and there are many stories coming out of brutal torture against activists. Are these backed by evidence, or just rumours? Of course the protestors will blame the police, and the police may blame the protestors too.
  - Joakal 7y ago
    Rumours mostly. See below for an example. https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d0tnei/missing_people_831_incidents/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d0tnei/missing_pe...
deleted 7y ago
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grugq 7y ago
This should be put in some context. Today is the anniversary of China as a communist country. The Hong Kong marchers were all wearing black today as a sign of mourning. That is why the kids are dressed in black (so please, no black bloc/antifa comments.) The police have been particularly aggressive towards protestors and journalists. They deliberately shoot tear gas at journalist "clusters" (presumably to prevent documentation of police actions?) They have shot multiple people with "rubber bullets" and they beat people with batons. The first people to use shields and clubs at the protests? The police. Besides the state authorized use of violence, there is also the use of non-state assets. The authorities have encouraged the triads to assault protestors. The police stand back and allow this to happen, probably because a picture of civilians beating people is a less polarizing image than police beating protestors. # the shooting From the videos it is clear that there was an officer on the ground and he was being assaulted. He is wearing protective equipment. When police beat protestors with batons the protestors do not have the benefit of riot gear. The officer who shot the 17yr kid should not have had his service weapon drawn, and should not have had his finger on the trigger. When a cop points a gun, finger on trigger, at someone the only party responsible for that shooting is the cop. The "descent into violence" narrative adopted by the Western media is completely missing the nuance of the protests. Most of the "violence" by protestors is property damage. It is seldom violence against a person.
- AlexB138 7y ago
  > Today is the anniversary of China as a communist country. The Hong Kong marchers were all wearing black today as a sign of mourning. That is why the kids are dressed in black (so please, no black bloc/antifa comments.) The Chinese color of mourning is white, not black as it is in the west. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_in_Chinese_culture#White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_in_Chinese_culture#White > White is also the color of mourning. It is associated with death and is used predominantly in funerals in Chinese culture.[3] Ancient Chinese people wore white clothes and hats only when they mourned for the dead. They have been intentionally reaching out to the west though. Perhaps they're intentionally appealing to western sensibilities.
- khuey 7y ago
  They've been wearing black for the five months or whatever that this has been going on.
potatofarmer45 7y ago
Just like the Yuen Long attack by white shirt triads sparked the current cycle of violence, this will further escalate a dangerous situation. There is a clear difference between fighting with sticks and stones to guns. It is now only a matter of time before somebody shoots a police officer in retaliation and when that happens, violence will spiral out of control.
SuperFerret 7y ago
Stop being so offended snowflake.
- iagovar 7y ago
  Is this comment really necessary? This is not reddit.
vnchr 7y ago
Closeup video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/2hei6 https://streamable.com/2hei6 Longer video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/qtyii https://streamable.com/qtyii
factsaresacred 7y ago
I respect the bravery of the protesters but in certain cases the violence is getting out of hand. An example from today: https://twitter.com/FxLowe/status/1179019436923056128 https://twitter.com/FxLowe/status/1179019436923056128 You can't mob the guys with guns. Not in HK, not in the West, not anywhere. There's a complete breakdown of trust on both sides so likely a long time before this defuses.
azemzaj 7y ago
Here is the full video from BBC for context https://youtu.be/Q0AiW_qMTt8 https://youtu.be/Q0AiW_qMTt8
loquor 7y ago
This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. China, in comparison, systematically rooted out these values since the Great Leap Forward. The happenings at Hong Kong and Xinjiang epitomize that. I do think China's expansionist policy bodes poorly for all of humanity.
- dev_dull 7y ago
  Yes I absolutely do. It’s especially frustrating that politicians speak endlessly about Russia when China is clearly the larger threat to US dominance. Even stories like “senator’s driver of 20 years is Chinese spy”[1] are basically ignored. 1. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-who-drove-her-dianne-feinstein-and-chinese-espionage https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-w...
  - deleted 7y ago
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- api 7y ago
  China is the world's #1 carbon emitter, the top emitter per GDP, and has over 200gw of new coal still planned. (For scale, California consumes about 50gw on a hot day.) So they are not even unrelated problems. China is also the top source of plastic in the ocean. Tangent but: the way China turned out has IMHO been the major factor in the collapse of the post cold war neoliberal narrative in the West. The idea was that freedom and prosperity are a reinforcing cycle has been disproven. China shows that at least the business parts of capitalism work just fine without human rights and that therefore prosperity and totalitarianism are compatible. The collapse of that narrative has in turn unleashed a revival of hard right fascist and hard left socialist ideology in the West.
  - 7y ago
gwbas1c 7y ago
Remember the Boston Massacre: > The Boston Massacre is considered one of the most significant events that turned colonial sentiment against King George III and British Parliamentary authority. John Adams wrote that the "foundation of American independence was laid" on March 5, 1770, and Samuel Adams and other Patriots used annual commemorations (Massacre Day) to encourage public sentiment toward independence. Christopher Monk was the boy who was wounded in the attack and died in 1780, and his memory was honored as a reminder of British hostility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre#Contribution_to_American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre#Contribution_t...
tehjoker 7y ago
This is bad, but the US should not intervene. Never have I ever seen an "intervention" help. If you can name one I'd love to hear it.
throwawaymanbot 7y ago
"Nothing can shake Chinas Foundations"... except 16yos apparently.
nilkn 7y ago
I prefer not to get major news from Reddit. The New York Times is covering this in great detail: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/world/asia/china-national-day-hong-kong-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/world/asia/china-national...
phragg 7y ago
watch out sam altman might remove this for being too relevant in important political climate and not relevant in some softbank funded unicorn....
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gdubs 7y ago
Vice News was doing, IMO, some of the best coverage of the situation in Hong Kong. Sadly, it seems the new AT&T leadership at HBO decided to make their mark and didn’t renew their contract.
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justaguyhere 7y ago
Saw some of the videos and reports, it is awful. One thing I don't understand - these cops are also from HK, correct? The protestors are fighting for the cops rights too, correct? If that is true, what is going on in the mind of a cop who is beating an unarmed protestor? Or are these cops from mainland China?
- 0x262d 7y ago
  cops are trained to view their own population as hostile everywhere
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
znpy 7y ago
I'm still thrilled at how hypocritically calm the US are about this whole topic and China in general. They're always ready to "export democracy" except when the receiver would be some kind of business partner (or lacks natural oil sources). So, how long until the US at least express an opinion on the matter?
systematical 7y ago
What is the protestors' end game here? Hasn't the extradition bill been killed? What do they need to end the protests and return to normal? I am genuinely curious.
- ptx 7y ago
  The five demands: 1. Withdraw the bill - which finally did happen, after much stalling. 2. Independent investigation of the police intervention. 3. Not classifying the mostly peaceful protests as riots. 4. Release of the many arrested protesters. (Who could face very long prison sentences because of previous point.) 5. Democratic elections of the HK government - which seems wildly optimistic but is apparently in the HK constitution.
  - systematical 7y ago
    Thank you
dirkg 7y ago
Ah yes, if Chinese police did it, its barbaric. US cops do far worse on a daily basis and are worshiped as heroes and literally get away with murder without so much as a charge.
- myxozoa 7y ago
  This is a topic of fierce controversy in america, where police shootings often result in protests This is an example of the same disconnect you describe in the comment
- anchpop 7y ago
  I expect this cop won't be meaningfully punished either
doomleika 7y ago
Longer context https://twitter.com/ezracheungtoto/status/1179018900278632448 https://twitter.com/ezracheungtoto/status/117901890027863244...
jonasft 7y ago
Serious question: Why aren't more from the police protesting as well, and supporting their citizens? I expect it is from fear of the government? What would they do to police unwilling to perform their duty? I wonder, because you have to assume some percentage of the police is in agreement with the protestors. Or maybe it is because right now, no matter what their opinion is, the need for order and police is greater than ever.
- flukus 7y ago
  No idea what their pay structure is like, but if they're getting paid overtime they're creating a direct cost for the government and making a profit at the same time. Their protest can be as simple as turning up and doing a half-assed job.
deleted 7y ago
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628 points by nodea2345 7y ago

Yes government, please take away my ar-15.

People don't think this sort of thing can happen in the US. Just look at what the federal, state and local government does to people it doesn't like now.

cdiddy2 7y ago
it has happened in the US many times. The most obvious example is Kent State
- chapium 7y ago
  People defending pepper spraying kids (protesting) sitting on a sidewalk...
chapium 7y ago
It can happen anywhere because fundamentally we are very tribal in nature. It is very easy in our minds to objectify nonmembers and treat them inhumanely.
PostPost 7y ago
1. Everyone that's read the news in the last few years knows this young people can be shot by police in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice 2. This link is about what's happening in Hong Kong, not the US, and this sort of what-about-ism isn't informative or helpful.
- rayiner 7y ago
  It also doesn't make sense. The shooting of Tamir Rice may have been an accident, or racism, or the pernicious combination that occurs when systemic racism results in more "accidents" against people of color. None of those things are in play in Hong Kong.
- cdmckay 7y ago
  I think it is helpful because it’s asking for consistency. People are (rightfully) outraged when a protestor dies in Hong Kong, but protestors also die in the US. For example, the Kent State shootings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings The point is that if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well.
  - PostPost 7y ago
    And you assume that people are not outraged when protesters die in the US? Did you even read the very article you quoted? "There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of 4 million students,[10] and the event further affected public opinion, at an already socially contentious time, over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War." Yes, America has serious, serious problems with police violence. But pointing out injustice does not necessitate bringing up every other similar instance of injustice. It is not helpful, and distracts from the issue at hand.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well America not being a dictatorship, there are people demanding this. Through elected leaders. Through independent courts. Through Constitutionally-protected assembly and protest. None of the above apply in China. And they’re rapidly eroding in Hong Kong, too. Yes, we should be outraged by police violence in America. But it’s a matchstick to the blast furnace that is Xi’s regime of secret police, political repression and concentration camps.
nicoburns 7y ago
As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. The US police seem incredibly violent and often unprovoked.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. A police officer shooting somebody that is physically attacking them with a metal club in a violent riot that involves firebombs being thrown at police officers? I would neither be surprised nor worried if that happened in the US. Now, if they just opened fire at unarmed, peaceful protestors, I'd be worried (though not surprised that much).
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    This wouldn't be expected behaviour in the UK. Our riot police carry shields, not guns.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      Comparably to China in HK might be UK in Northern Ireland. I do remember them being somewhat less de-escalating than you make it sound. In any case, you mentioned it happening in the US, that's what I was commenting on. I cannot imagine US cops not using their guns when attacked in that way. There is a point to be made about general strategies and not letting it escalate to the point where protesters throw molotov cocktails on police, but I don't know that either UK or US cops would simply disengage and give up parts of town to mob rule.
swarnie_ 7y ago
> People don't think this sort of thing can happen in the US Yes we do. Its one of the reasons i avoid visiting the US besides the obvious TSA/Immigration controls.

easytiger 7y ago

Obviously China is evil etc etc. But isn't it pretty obvious these people are physically attacking armed officers as they are retreating? And they are beating up and kicking another downed officer in the head? Whilst I might have sympathy for their cause the kid struck an armed officer with a weapon whilst he wielded a gun as his friends beat another armed officer. I have very little sympathy for anyone who makes such poor decisions in a group delerium of impunity. Edit: If anyone downvoting would care to offer another option, that would be appreciated

marliechiller 7y ago
i think i saw yesterday though that the Government there is infiltrating the protest groups with agent provocateurs so i dont know what to believe anymore
- easytiger 7y ago
  Entirely irrelevant as there is a video of the kid hitting a police officer with his gun drawn. This is entirely self inflicted. There is no strategic advantage to physically attacking a police officer in this context. It didn't further a cause in any conflict. If you go and hit someone with a gun pointed at you it is undeniable that the person acted in self defence. I hate to be defending these things, but the hypocrisy and hyperbole are unhelpful in understanding the truth
  - tyingq 7y ago
    The video. Pretty clear he's swinging something that looks like a pipe or a wooden stick. Not the full context, and I imagine the police have things to answer for. But swinging a stick/pipe at an armed person isn't wise. https://www.facebook.com/hkucampustv/videos/542398913195804/?v=542398913195804 https://www.facebook.com/hkucampustv/videos/542398913195804/...
  - gleenn 7y ago
    While I would expect repercussions when swinging at police, I think being physically present in confrontation shows a level of commitment that a weaker protest movement might not show. Sure, if you die you aren't going to be protesting any longer, but that doesn't mean it has no strategic value as perhaps the only option a protester might see is violent escalation.

dx87 7y ago

Not to defend what the police have been doing overall during this protest, but in this specific incident you can see the protestors beating a police officer on the ground, and the protestor who got shot was swinging a metal pipe at the police officer that shot him.

sigzero 7y ago
Context is everything.
nodea2345 7y ago
Full context is police officers often beat protests during arresting. Sometimes they just fight each other. Anyway, I think the officer have better choices than attempting to kill the kid(shot in chest is obvious willing to kill).
- LandR 7y ago
  I think anytime you shoot a gun at one someone you are shooting to kill, shoot to maim feels like it would be practically impossible outside of movies. But I might be wrong, I've never shot a gun.
  - geggam 7y ago
    This concept you can shoot to maim is silly. Hitting a man is hard if you practice shooting. In a chaotic situation with adrenaline its even harder. Shooting to hit is all you can do.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      The police in Sweden is trained to shoot to maim, but only in somewhat controlled situations, such as someone wielding a knife approaching officers from a distance. First warn verbally, then fire a warning shot, then fire at the legs. When there is no margin left, fire to stop. (Which means in practice, often death.) https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befogenheter/hur-ofta-anvander-polisen-skjutvapen/ https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befog...

program_whiz 7y ago

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to take all property rights and freedoms like that -- I think taking to the streets, and even resorting to violence might be necessary (otherwise the powers-that-be have no reason to listen to a bunch of people standing in a street hundreds of miles away).

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
You said yourself that the government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If that's the case, doesn't that make the protesters assault a senseless assault? What were they trying to accomplish when they were beating the officer?
schuke 7y ago
I’m from the mainland and totally with HK’s cause. But I do think the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement. If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed. If they don’t, it seems to me there’s enough space for peaceful protests, which can be even more effectual in many ways. And the people of Hong Kong have shown an incredible amount of creativity in non-violent protests. The kid is so young he shouldn’t be involved in such violence. I hope he will make a full recovery.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement Judgement is complicated by documented evidence of undercover Hong Kong police dressing up as protesters and acting like belligerent idiots [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-pr...
  - 7y ago

peter_retief 7y ago

https://twitter.com/Piet00065526/status/1179025357959237639/photo/1 https://twitter.com/Piet00065526/status/1179025357959237639/...

nvahalik 7y ago

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

swarnie_ 7y ago
Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert? The point is to increase the cost of violence against the population. The Swiss bunker / guerrilla strategy. Also, there is no reason to suspect asymmetric vectors like autonomous drone armies would accrue solely to state actors.
  - ixtli 7y ago
    In my experience when these people are made the least bit uncomfortable in any social situation they immediately call the police. They're not who they pretend to be online.
    - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
      Ironic, their first inclination is to call people who have the "murder guns" that they complain heavily about.
      - close04 7y ago
        Because they represent authority and the law just like in any other country. The fact that LEOs carry guns is because they are surrounded by a lot of other individuals who are unable to take smart decisions while wielding a deadly firearm. Your statement is forced just to make the point. I don't think the gun control topic was ever related to law enforcement or military personnel carrying guns. It's more about having guns easily accessible to violent and repeat offenders, mentally unstable people, etc.

foobarian 7y ago

Great Britain gave HK back to China. They can do with it as they please - unfortunately I don't see how the protesters can come out on the right side of this without a revolution. Thought experiment: if say Rhode Island had a Muslim majority and they voted themselves Sharia law in violation of federal articles, how cavalier would the federal government / the rest of the populous be in tolerating this?

pimmen 7y ago
A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? Hong Kong didn't choose the CCP who didn't even exist yet when the lease was signed. They sure as hell didn't choose to lose their rights to a fair trial and freedom of expression either. So, if you do a thought experiment about protests against the government, keep in mind that the government in question commits some of the worst human rights abuses today.
- UIZealot 7y ago
  > A better anaology would be if the US implemented extreme Sharia law, how cavalier would people who don't want to live like that be? That's a very poor analogy. Hong Kong citizens already enjoy the benefit of an independent legal system and don't have to live like mainland citizens. > They sure as hell didn't choose to lose their rights to a fair trial and freedom of expression either. They sure didn't. And they sure haven't lost those rights.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    The protest was about the prospect of losing those rights, starting with being subject to mainland laws through extradition. The protest has then expanded to being against the CCP undermining ”one country, two systems” in general, an example of which would be Gui Minhai who’s serving time for a book he published in Hong Kong. So, I would say the analogy is still apt. The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against.

tmux314 7y ago

This is not the first time the HKPF has used overt force on a protester, just the first time it has done so publicly. Several protesters have already been "disappeared", and there are many stories coming out of brutal torture against activists. If Beijing authorities have learned one thing from Tiananmen Square, it's that in the internet age violent suppression must happen in private places, where it cannot be recorded by someone's cellphone and shared instantly with the world. Public acts of violence is a PR nightmare and only fans the flames of dissent. This event will only harden HKers more. In the short term it might prevent mainstream protesters from taking to the streets out of fear of violence. But it will make the average HKer more resentful of Beijing's long arm and empower radical factions. And there are many ways to weaken a government's control outside of public protest. EDIT: Protester is in critical condition. He was not killed.

radmarshallb 7y ago
As of this writing the protester in question was injured, not killed.
- tmux314 7y ago
  Fixed. Thanks.
bhy 7y ago
> Several protesters have already been "disappeared", and there are many stories coming out of brutal torture against activists. Are these backed by evidence, or just rumours? Of course the protestors will blame the police, and the police may blame the protestors too.
- Joakal 7y ago
  Rumours mostly. See below for an example. https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d0tnei/missing_people_831_incidents/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d0tnei/missing_pe...

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grugq 7y ago

This should be put in some context. Today is the anniversary of China as a communist country. The Hong Kong marchers were all wearing black today as a sign of mourning. That is why the kids are dressed in black (so please, no black bloc/antifa comments.) The police have been particularly aggressive towards protestors and journalists. They deliberately shoot tear gas at journalist "clusters" (presumably to prevent documentation of police actions?) They have shot multiple people with "rubber bullets" and they beat people with batons. The first people to use shields and clubs at the protests? The police. Besides the state authorized use of violence, there is also the use of non-state assets. The authorities have encouraged the triads to assault protestors. The police stand back and allow this to happen, probably because a picture of civilians beating people is a less polarizing image than police beating protestors. # the shooting From the videos it is clear that there was an officer on the ground and he was being assaulted. He is wearing protective equipment. When police beat protestors with batons the protestors do not have the benefit of riot gear. The officer who shot the 17yr kid should not have had his service weapon drawn, and should not have had his finger on the trigger. When a cop points a gun, finger on trigger, at someone the only party responsible for that shooting is the cop. The "descent into violence" narrative adopted by the Western media is completely missing the nuance of the protests. Most of the "violence" by protestors is property damage. It is seldom violence against a person.

AlexB138 7y ago
> Today is the anniversary of China as a communist country. The Hong Kong marchers were all wearing black today as a sign of mourning. That is why the kids are dressed in black (so please, no black bloc/antifa comments.) The Chinese color of mourning is white, not black as it is in the west. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_in_Chinese_culture#White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_in_Chinese_culture#White > White is also the color of mourning. It is associated with death and is used predominantly in funerals in Chinese culture.[3] Ancient Chinese people wore white clothes and hats only when they mourned for the dead. They have been intentionally reaching out to the west though. Perhaps they're intentionally appealing to western sensibilities.
khuey 7y ago
They've been wearing black for the five months or whatever that this has been going on.

potatofarmer45 7y ago

Just like the Yuen Long attack by white shirt triads sparked the current cycle of violence, this will further escalate a dangerous situation. There is a clear difference between fighting with sticks and stones to guns. It is now only a matter of time before somebody shoots a police officer in retaliation and when that happens, violence will spiral out of control.

SuperFerret 7y ago

Stop being so offended snowflake.

iagovar 7y ago
Is this comment really necessary? This is not reddit.

vnchr 7y ago

Closeup video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/2hei6 https://streamable.com/2hei6 Longer video of the shooting: https://streamable.com/qtyii https://streamable.com/qtyii

factsaresacred 7y ago

I respect the bravery of the protesters but in certain cases the violence is getting out of hand. An example from today: https://twitter.com/FxLowe/status/1179019436923056128 https://twitter.com/FxLowe/status/1179019436923056128 You can't mob the guys with guns. Not in HK, not in the West, not anywhere. There's a complete breakdown of trust on both sides so likely a long time before this defuses.

azemzaj 7y ago

Here is the full video from BBC for context https://youtu.be/Q0AiW_qMTt8 https://youtu.be/Q0AiW_qMTt8

loquor 7y ago

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. China, in comparison, systematically rooted out these values since the Great Leap Forward. The happenings at Hong Kong and Xinjiang epitomize that. I do think China's expansionist policy bodes poorly for all of humanity.

dev_dull 7y ago
Yes I absolutely do. It’s especially frustrating that politicians speak endlessly about Russia when China is clearly the larger threat to US dominance. Even stories like “senator’s driver of 20 years is Chinese spy”[1] are basically ignored. 1. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-who-drove-her-dianne-feinstein-and-chinese-espionage https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-w...
- deleted 7y ago
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api 7y ago
China is the world's #1 carbon emitter, the top emitter per GDP, and has over 200gw of new coal still planned. (For scale, California consumes about 50gw on a hot day.) So they are not even unrelated problems. China is also the top source of plastic in the ocean. Tangent but: the way China turned out has IMHO been the major factor in the collapse of the post cold war neoliberal narrative in the West. The idea was that freedom and prosperity are a reinforcing cycle has been disproven. China shows that at least the business parts of capitalism work just fine without human rights and that therefore prosperity and totalitarianism are compatible. The collapse of that narrative has in turn unleashed a revival of hard right fascist and hard left socialist ideology in the West.
- 7y ago

gwbas1c 7y ago

Remember the Boston Massacre: > The Boston Massacre is considered one of the most significant events that turned colonial sentiment against King George III and British Parliamentary authority. John Adams wrote that the "foundation of American independence was laid" on March 5, 1770, and Samuel Adams and other Patriots used annual commemorations (Massacre Day) to encourage public sentiment toward independence. Christopher Monk was the boy who was wounded in the attack and died in 1780, and his memory was honored as a reminder of British hostility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre#Contribution_to_American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre#Contribution_t...

tehjoker 7y ago

This is bad, but the US should not intervene. Never have I ever seen an "intervention" help. If you can name one I'd love to hear it.

throwawaymanbot 7y ago

"Nothing can shake Chinas Foundations"... except 16yos apparently.

nilkn 7y ago

I prefer not to get major news from Reddit. The New York Times is covering this in great detail: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/world/asia/china-national-day-hong-kong-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/world/asia/china-national...

phragg 7y ago

watch out sam altman might remove this for being too relevant in important political climate and not relevant in some softbank funded unicorn....

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gdubs 7y ago

Vice News was doing, IMO, some of the best coverage of the situation in Hong Kong. Sadly, it seems the new AT&T leadership at HBO decided to make their mark and didn’t renew their contract.

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justaguyhere 7y ago

Saw some of the videos and reports, it is awful. One thing I don't understand - these cops are also from HK, correct? The protestors are fighting for the cops rights too, correct? If that is true, what is going on in the mind of a cop who is beating an unarmed protestor? Or are these cops from mainland China?

0x262d 7y ago
cops are trained to view their own population as hostile everywhere
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znpy 7y ago

I'm still thrilled at how hypocritically calm the US are about this whole topic and China in general. They're always ready to "export democracy" except when the receiver would be some kind of business partner (or lacks natural oil sources). So, how long until the US at least express an opinion on the matter?

systematical 7y ago

What is the protestors' end game here? Hasn't the extradition bill been killed? What do they need to end the protests and return to normal? I am genuinely curious.

ptx 7y ago
The five demands: 1. Withdraw the bill - which finally did happen, after much stalling. 2. Independent investigation of the police intervention. 3. Not classifying the mostly peaceful protests as riots. 4. Release of the many arrested protesters. (Who could face very long prison sentences because of previous point.) 5. Democratic elections of the HK government - which seems wildly optimistic but is apparently in the HK constitution.
- systematical 7y ago
  Thank you

dirkg 7y ago

Ah yes, if Chinese police did it, its barbaric. US cops do far worse on a daily basis and are worshiped as heroes and literally get away with murder without so much as a charge.

myxozoa 7y ago
This is a topic of fierce controversy in america, where police shootings often result in protests This is an example of the same disconnect you describe in the comment
anchpop 7y ago
I expect this cop won't be meaningfully punished either

doomleika 7y ago

Longer context https://twitter.com/ezracheungtoto/status/1179018900278632448 https://twitter.com/ezracheungtoto/status/117901890027863244...

jonasft 7y ago

Serious question: Why aren't more from the police protesting as well, and supporting their citizens? I expect it is from fear of the government? What would they do to police unwilling to perform their duty? I wonder, because you have to assume some percentage of the police is in agreement with the protestors. Or maybe it is because right now, no matter what their opinion is, the need for order and police is greater than ever.

flukus 7y ago
No idea what their pay structure is like, but if they're getting paid overtime they're creating a direct cost for the government and making a profit at the same time. Their protest can be as simple as turning up and doing a half-assed job.

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