24 ms·

I just had over a thousand Euros stolen and Revolut is siding with the thief

• grenoire 7y ago
  Another PayPal, another decade.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    PayPal almost always sides with the consumer, at least. Revolut's treatment was inexcusable. I've been a customer for three years and use them every day, I did not expect to be treated like this in a million years. This would also never have happened if the message said anything more than "you've reached the limit". Even the mention of amount would have made me immediately suspicious. As it happened, I just didn't think of fraud, or know which card hit the limit, so I just went absent-mindedly fiddling with them.
    • pteraspidomorph 7y ago
      "They can’t even give a list of all my data under the GDPR so I can see myself, which seems illegal." You're in Greece? Under the GDPR they're legally required to give you all the data they have on you; this is non-negotiable. I hope you included that in your complaint. As for the rest, I guess they're just garbage and I'm glad to know I don't ever want to be using their services. Maybe someone from Revolut will chime in here and try to explain the situation.
      • luckylion 7y ago
        > Under the GDPR they're legally required to give you all the data they have on you; this is non-negotiable. To play devil's advocate: they might argue that the fraudulent transaction contains/might contain PII of the fraudster and they are protecting his privacy. Sounds crazy, but I wouldn't be that surprised.
        • StavrosK 7y ago
          They refused to give me my information too, though. I wanted all the data they had on my transactions so I could analyze my card usage. All the fraudulent transaction has is amount/merchant/date and card, it doesn't have any of the fraudster's info on it.
          • luckylion 7y ago
            Would love to hear an update when/if you hear back from GDPR compliance officials.
            • StavrosK 7y ago
              I will update the post with any updates, if any.
          • nske 7y ago
            https://www.revolut.com/legal/privacy/#what-are-my-rights https://www.revolut.com/legal/privacy/#what-are-my-rights Send a ‘data subject access request’ to dpo@revolut.com, they should handle that properly.
• thomersch_ 7y ago
  "How hard must being a bank be, it's just a few numbers in a database." After all those new-ish, app-based banks are for people with too much time on their hands. You mostly can't talk to anyone, and when they answer it's just a copy-paste from their FAQ. They also lack features, e.g. Kontist doesn't support international bank transfers. Support will tell you "well it could work, but we can't give you any assistance". I don't have six months until your development team understands and implements some protocol!
  • JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > You mostly can't talk to anyone No phone number should be a dealbreaker for banking. 99% of the time, you don’t want to talk to a banker. But that 1% of the time can make or break you for months or years. These start-ups (e.g. Bank Simple, Revolut, et cetera) prey on consumers who have only experienced the 99%. You don’t want to have a 1% event, like fraud, or an issue overseas, or a liquidity crisis, with a service you can’t talk to. (It’s also bad enough when it’s your first time with an issue. You don’t want to be banking with someone who’s (a) never solved that problem before either and (b) not available to talk to.)
    • mschuster91 7y ago
      > 99% of the time, you don’t want to talk to a banker. But that 1% of the time can make or break you for months or years. This is why I still use my local Sparkasse (credit union) and pay ~9€ a month. They can sort out pretty much everything instantly - need a second card for your s/o, a secondary account for handling freelancer income, or a loan? No problem, show up and get what you want. Additionally: when you're up for buying a house and all the lender bank has to look is the credit score, you will be paying more interest than if you apply for a credit at the bank that has handled your business over decades. None of the "new online banks" does real estate financing.
      • thesimon 7y ago
        > Additionally: when you're up for buying a house and all the lender bank has to look is the credit score, you will be paying more interest than if you apply for a credit at the bank that has handled your business over decades [citation required] In my experience neither credit score nor past business have a significant impact on interest rate. Price and value of the house is everything.
• yaseer 7y ago
  Thanks for posting this. I haven't yet got on the 'challenger bank bandwagon' mainly due to laziness. This has made me a lot more hesitant to do so. Certainly not with revolut, who are now notorious for a broken growth-first mindset.
  • ForHackernews 7y ago
    I've been using Transferwise for a while now, and at least on the face of it, they seem quite boring and sensible. They're the first non-bank that's been granted direct access to the UK's faster payments network.
    • StavrosK 7y ago
      Do TransferWise let you keep money with them and give you a card? I thought they were just a transfers company.
      • ForHackernews 7y ago
        That used to be the case. They've recently launched their "Borderless Account" that comes with its own debit card: https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/ https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/ (the card is an ugly neon green, but works fine in my experience)
        • sschueller 7y ago
          The card just happens to the same color as my 3d printer wallet :) https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3218830 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3218830
      • bitskits 7y ago
        Yes, they do. https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/ https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/
        • StavrosK 7y ago
• Dayshine 7y ago
  It feels like the "unique" part that makes this something novel about this is that they claim you authorized fraud when you raised your limit, accidentally letting a transaction you couldn't see through. So the scenario is roughly (numbers made up): 1. You set a £500 monthly card limit 2. Your card is stolen and somebody charges £1000 3. You get a notification saying you have hit your limit 4. The failed, fraudulent, transaction is not listed 5. You increase your monthly limit to £1500 6. The fraudulent transaction goes through 7. You can now see the transaction 8. You cancel your card and report the fraud 9. You're told by raising the limit you authorized the fraudulent transaction that you couldn't see before you raised the limit That's insane...
  • yani 7y ago
    Why would you raise the card limit? Panic?
    • StavrosK 7y ago
      In my case, it was because it's a thing that happens frequently. I set limits low and I routinely get transactions failing, so I raise/remove the limit and they retry. It generally happens when recurring bill payments come through, so I didn't really think much of it, I did what I do when a transaction fails. If I had seen the amount, I definitely wouldn't have done anything like that.
      • Double_a_92 7y ago
        > I set limits low and I routinely get transactions failing, so I raise/remove the limit and they retry. What's the point of a limit, if you automatically remove it whenever something is over the limit?
        • StavrosK 7y ago
          It didn't start out like that, but yep, it just trained me to override it. The rationale was that I could first see the transactions that fail, but the UI doesn't encourage that.
• ajdlinux 7y ago
  FWIW - having to wait for pending transactions to post before filing a chargeback is how traditional banks have treated me, and I'm guessing is probably just part of the Visa/Mastercard dispute resolution process (someone who knows better might correct me here). Though you'd think a next-gen mobile-only bank would be able to put some additional automation around the process so that they would contact you again on the day the transaction posts to confirm you want to go through with a chargeback, or something like that. The rest of the story looks really, really bad for Revolut - I have never had a traditional bank speak to me like that before.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    > having to wait for pending transactions to post before filing a chargeback is how traditional banks have treated me Yeah, I guess they have a reason for doing that, though I don't know what it is. Still, I would have thought they can cancel it in cases of fraud? Maybe it's so you can't "dine and dash" or similar.
    • wooptoo 7y ago
      That's why they are called _transactions_. They are an immutable journal of amounts coming in and going out.
  • exidy 7y ago
    Visa/Mastercard use a DMS or dual-message system that is basically a digitisation of the paper-based "click-clack" machines, possibly with a phone-based pre-authorisation. The first message is the auth which comes online. This can only be accepted or declined. Once it has been accepted the value of the transaction is reserved against the credit limit but no movement of funds takes place. The issuing bank can remove the auth manually, but this just releases the credit, it has no impact on what happens next. The transactions are posted to the account in overnight batch, during which the card system will attempt to match the pending auths and remove them. Some transactions (such as recurrent ones) will have no matching auth. There is no opportunity at this stage to "reject" a transaction, the batch is applied or it isn't. The issuing bank will typically get or more batches per BIN. The dispute process at this point involves the issuing bank (Revolut) issuing a chargeback against the acquiring bank, which triggers a process during which each bank has certain timeframes to reject or accept the chargeback. So from this standpoint Revolut is basically following standard process.
• Peroni 7y ago
  Revolut's CFO recently 'resigned' from the company in light of claims that Revolut switched off an anti-money laundering system that flags suspect transactions. Revolut cited 'personal and health reasons' for the CFO's resignation. Whatever those personal and health reasons really were, they clearly passed quite quickly as within the space of a few weeks, said CFO has joined another FinTech company as their new CFO. The company quite literally has the words "get sh*t done" in giant neon letters on their office wall. They live by the mantra of move fast and break things. That mantra is inevitably going to cause problems when your entire business is dealing with real money owned by real people in one of the most heavily regulated industries in the world.
  • C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Maybe there was an argument and the CFO was against turning off the money laundering and lost out and left over that.
    • krn 7y ago
      The CFO resigned only after the documents passed to The Telegraph by a whistleblower showed that for three months in 2018 Revolut switched off an automated system designed to stop dubious money transfers[1]. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/28/revolut-failed-block-suspicious-transactions/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/28/revolut-fa...
      • C1sc0cat 7y ago
        I saw that but it wasn't clear as far as I remember who did this - it may be the CFO took responsibility for some one else's actions.
        • JumpCrisscross 7y ago
          > it may be the CFO took responsibility for some one else's actions CFOs of financial services companies are typically senior AML officers. All AML actions are their actions, and AML liability for AML officers is almost strict liability. If something happens and if best practice wasn’t followed, the AML officer(s) are personally and criminally liable. If someone could turn off the entire AML scanning system with the CFO’s prior knowledge, sign-off, and ex post facto notification, that’s a deficient AML policy.
• Shivetya 7y ago
  The story is just bizarre and I do not understand how the card issuer/bank can act like that in good faith, of course we only have one side here. Still it really comes off as an organization who acting in a space they are not qualified to be in. Let me guess, they started out to disrupt this space? anecdotal+ As for his comments about banks not wanting to act on fraud, I have had two fraudulent CC transactions in one year and both times I felt as in my bank and Visa did very well. I also had two issues with Ebay where they and PayPal reacted quickly in my favor. I think for the most part those who are experienced in this arena are quick to act to preserve their reputation because that is what people see, they don't see their "fraud" reports.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    You do have one side, but I can show you the entire conversation. They don't have a phone number you can call, so that's literally the whole story.
    • aflag 7y ago
      Relevant parts of the chat may have been left out, though. Also there could be previous record.
  • C1sc0cat 7y ago
    The traditional banks have been getting a lot a negative press over large frauds criminals pretending to be solicitors in house purchases and making off with large sums. The banks are claiming GPDR for not disclosing the fraudulent accounts criminals set up to receive £
• mikl 7y ago
  News flash: No corporation cares about you. Some might look good, but that is not because they care about you. It's because doing good things make their customers and employees happy, and thus keeps the money flowing.
  • mcherm 7y ago
    Look, if your response to encountering terrible customer service is to declare that everyone has terrible customer service then you were likely to continue to receive terrible customer service. If, instead, your response to receiving terrible customer service where to say "this company is awful!", and take your business to someone else with better customer service then perhaps the companies with better service will thrive.
    • mikl 7y ago
      I'm just addressing the headline. Saying "BigCorp doesn't care about you" is tautological. That aside, pointing out evil deeds of corporations and punishing them by taking our business elsewhere is exactly the solution I'm recommending.
      • StavrosK 7y ago
        Replace "doesn't care about you" with "doesn't think that keeping you happy is in their financial interest" and there is no loss of clarity. The former rolls off the tongue much more easily, though.
  • onli 7y ago
    Sigh. Corporations consist of people and it is absolutely possible that a corporation (that is not too big) cares deeply about an issue. The whole improve the world stuff can be bullshit, but it can also be true. Besides, it does not matter here. Even if it's about doing good things to make customers happy it is noteworthy when a company stops doing that. Amazon had the best customer support ever and now screwed me over, Revolut does what looks like criminal fraud enablement just for screwing with Stavros (probably to enable the power trip of someone in that company) - those things matter regardless whether it's because of the absence of prior real care for the customer or the absence of prior proper treatment out of business reasons.
• Daniel_sk 7y ago
  Get an account with a reputable bank. In my bank I have a personal banker that I can contact (phone, email, message) in case I need anything (you will get this privilege after a certain amount of income per month, but it's easily reached if you work in IT). I was even able to get money back after I paid for something that I never received (simple debit card). And also many people forget that you may need a larger mortage or loan in the future and I don't think Revolut will help you with this. And in the case of my bank they have a modern mobile and web application, I am not missing anything (Face ID, Touch ID, virtual card generator, retrieve money from ATM with a generated code from the mobile app, open account from mobile app...).
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    Unfortunately, banks in Greece aren't in good shape or very convenient. I also just didn't think this could ever happen.
    • JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > banks in Greece aren't in good shape or very convenient You can probably find a reputable bank with a nearby branch. Even an online-only relationship with a reputable bank, regulated by a reputable national authority (e.g. the U.K., Switzerland or France), would be a good idea.
      • StavrosK 7y ago
        Good idea, we have some HSBC, etc branches, I will try one of those. Thank you.
    • Daniel_sk 7y ago
      That's a shame. I am very pleased with Tatrabanka in Slovakia. They have a lot of local branches but you never need to go there, all can be handled through mobile app, internet banking or through phone (they use voice fingerprinting).
    • fevangelou 7y ago
• AdrianB1 7y ago
  Before I signed up for Revolut I did a bit of research and found some incidents that made me more cautious than usual. Unfortunately at the end of my analysis I found no better option, so I signed up. But knowing what I do, I have 2 rules: - don't keep a significant sum there; not more than what I can afford to loose if things go wrong - keep unused features disabled at all times, activate and deactivate features or card only when I want to use it. Practically my card is blocked until I want to use it and blocked again as soon as I paid. My balance today is ~ $35. I will top up when I need to pay more, it is enough for a coffee, a snack or to fill in gas (I ride a bike, even with expensive European gas it's still ~ $25 for a full tank).
  • sschueller 7y ago
    I had good luck with tranferwise.
    • ninjin 7y ago
      Same here, but I have recently changed to Revolut for transfers abroad since even for very large transfers the TransferWise “fee” (exchange rate plus transfer fee) is at about 1.4%, while Revolut is at about 0.4% if you withdraw cash from an ATM. This is if your end goal is to get cash on the other end, rather than services where Revolut would have an even sharper edge. If someone has another viable alternative I am all ears as I am hardly enamoured by Revolut’s app and behaviour.
    • blunte 7y ago
      I’ve been happy with TransferWise for years as well. Their support is decent, and their products/services are some of the best available.
  • st1ck 7y ago
    With all this effort, cash seems much easier option.
    • notahacker 7y ago
      One of Revolut's selling points is fee free overseas card purchases. Some people have travel schedules where local cash is actually an annoyance, and topping up the app balance via mobile before paying for something certainly isn't any harder than withdrawing extra cash.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• Lucadg 7y ago
  I used to like them but then this happened: - they froze my account. - they required documentation. - the chat was broken. There was no way to contact them and send the documentation. - I found them in Twitter, someone from Revolut passed my issue along. No one called me. - They kept messaging me in the chat. I could see the numbers piling up but the chat was "opps something went wrong" and a blank page. - I tried all: cache, restart etc...I didn't want to uninstall. - after two weeks I took the big risk and uninstalled the app. It was very tense...I installed it again (it worked luckily) and I could finally chat again. Problem solved. They never called me, I could not call them, the problem was on their end but I had to find a way and take the risks. Never again. Fintech is just banks with a sleek interface and no experience after all. [EDIT: formatting]
  • rkangel 7y ago
    Fintech has good products and bad products, just like every other sector. Monzo, for instance, is excellent.
    • Lucadg 7y ago
      I suppose so. I guess we are coming out of the phase when a nice app was enough to convince that "this is so much better than a bank". We're maturing as customers.
• tshanmu 7y ago
  Under PSD2 this is illegal - sadly the implementation date is in Sep 2019. Appalling treatment and Revoult has been getting some bad press recently - you should complain to Financial Ombudsman - https://financial-ombudsman.org.uk https://financial-ombudsman.org.uk (assuming you are dealing with Revolut UK, and they have not switched to Revolut Payments UAB for EU customers)
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    I already filed a complaint with them, but apparently Revolut can just refuse to reply and that's that. They also told me as much, they said I have to file a formal complaint with them first. They said something like "we will refuse to process any other complaint until the formal complaint process is complete", but since they're judge, jury and executioner on this, I don't have much faith.
    • tshanmu 7y ago
      this is scary - I am sure you can take them to small claims court for this if you are in UK as they are refusing to engage via the ombudsman.
    • JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > since they're judge, jury and executioner on this They’re not. It sounds like Revolut is regulated in Lithuania; complain to them [1]. I’d also light up your own country’s national financial regulator. (If you can find nexus with the U.K., they’re a good one to get involved [2], too.) [1] https://www.lb.lt/en/sfi-disputes-between-consumers-and-financial-market-participants https://www.lb.lt/en/sfi-disputes-between-consumers-and-fina... [2] http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/ http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/
      • StavrosK 7y ago
        This is great information, I will, thank you!
      • treis 7y ago
• strzibny 7y ago
  This is disturbing (I also have Revolut).
• sschueller 7y ago
  They also don't care about their employees [1][2] and I believe are now under investigation for money laundry.[3] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace-culture-burnout-finance-app-reports https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/3/18248826/revolut-workplace... [2] https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/1101081229351415808 https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/110108122935141580... [3] https://cryptonomist.ch/en/2019/03/01/revolut-cfo-money-laundering/ https://cryptonomist.ch/en/2019/03/01/revolut-cfo-money-laun...
• freneticks 7y ago
  Very interesting. I must say that I have always been interested in this application, but when I see that on exodus it is listed 8 trackers + 40 permissions I conclude only one thing : I am the product that must be sold.
• ddebernardy 7y ago
  Revolut already made headlines a few months ago: https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1101193984871870464 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1101193984871870464
• PedroBatista 7y ago
  Revolut will "win" because of that. It's well known the working conditions at Revolut are appalling and a complete meat grinder. Top execs have a gangster attitude and have no problem backstabbing their way to the top. The financial/banking sector is a fertile ground for them, so they will not fail.
• huffmsa 7y ago
  A partially related (Identity theft) write up for the US system. Tl;dr send physical mail to their legal and compliance people, send copies to the regulating government institutions. Paper paper paper. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
• thefounder 7y ago
  Credit/debit cards are outdated and should be replaced by flexible and safer methods that allow fine-grained control over the payment (i.e one time payment, recurring, limits on recurring etc). Everyone with your card number can take money from your account. How stupid is that? Like giving the user/pass of your online banking.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    Exactly, I don't understand why we can't do "push" money transfers and we have to do "pull"... Cryptocurrencies have a much better use case when it comes to the transaction UX. I also think some countries like the Netherlands have a "push" system that seems convenient.
    • icebraining 7y ago
      Many countries have that (e.g. Portugal has had it for over a decade), the problem is that they generally don't work across borders. Hopefully SEPA can help with that.
  • codedokode 7y ago
    I hope they will be replaced by cryptocurrencies without passports, sudden account blocking and other stupid bureacracy.
• sam_lowry_ 7y ago
  Looking at the headline of the author "Greek. Amateur F1 driver. Technology enthusiast. Single parent. Liar." The word Liar stands out.
  • hsoc 7y ago
    Yeah, he lied about lying though.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    Really? "Amateur F1 driver" didn't? I'll have to add "Mars coloniser" then.
    • quickthrower2 7y ago
      That could be true. You could probably pay to drive an older F1 car around a track.
      • StavrosK 7y ago
        That actually sounds like a lot of fun.
  • teddyh 7y ago
    As he’s a Greek, I assume he’s making a joke about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides_paradox
  • raxxorrax 7y ago
    Everybody lies as studies have proven. So who is the more honest person? The one that denies it or the one that confirms it? Maybe people that say that they do lie are the most honest people to be around.
• _petronius 7y ago
  This is why I will always bank with the old-school banks. Being able to reach someone on the phone -- or even turn up at a branch -- makes it a lot harder for them to ignore you when there is a major issue that needs resolving. But then, my "traditional" bank has a very good app, and treats me extremely nicely, even when I've had all of a few euros (or less than zero euros) in my account.
  • noir_lord 7y ago
    Even the old school banks have their issues, HSBC and money laundering for cartels comes to mind. Money is power and power corrupts seems to apply too often with this stuff.
    • _petronius 7y ago
      Well, my bank is a co-operative with a corporate duty to invest in social and ecological initiatives, so other models are possible (and successful!).
    • briandear 7y ago
      HSBC laundering money doesn’t affect my current accounts. Not saying that issue isn’t important, but that doesn’t hurt my personal access to funds.
      • kweks 7y ago
        Don't kid yourself. Post cartel scandal, opening an HSBC account transcended difficult to impossible in certain jurisdictions.
  • Dirlewanger 7y ago
    Yup. For all their flaws and bureaucratic inertia, big banks still have the largest coffers for providing a well-rounded product. Given how backend vendors like Fiserv can be hacked and have 0 repercussions doled out to them, I simply could never recommend banking with local mom-and-pop banks. Just avoid HSBC and Wells Fargo, and you're good.
• ForHackernews 7y ago
  > You can never rely on banks to give you your money back, since they want their fraud statistics to remain low, even if that means refusing you your money. Isn't Revolut explicitly not a bank? I thought it was some kind of non-bank pseudo-gift card FinTech thing? I've never had any problems disputing transactions with my normal regular boring bank that doesn't have an app.
  • xorcist 7y ago
    They seem to be, as per last December: https://blog.revolut.com/we-got-a-banking-licence/ https://blog.revolut.com/we-got-a-banking-licence/
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
• zakk 7y ago
  And that's why you should get a credit card from a real bank, rather than a debit card. With a credit card, in case of fraud, the bank will most likely side with you. (Talking about Europe, not sure the same applies outside Europe, for instance the American banking system is quite different...)
  • tluyben2 7y ago
    EU as well and anecdotal; I have 3 dutch bank accounts with CCs, Spanish one with Debitcard and Revolut debit card. Chargebacks on the Spanish are the easiest; I mail my bank and they refund whatever I ask them no questions asked. Revolut does so as well but they ask questions. The Dutch Cc ones are the worst; they require a lengthy process and sometimes they still do not side with me even though it is rather obvious. However, if they detect them themselves (the fraud transactions) then they do reverse without issues: I am talking about the ones I report (over many years; it does not happen often, and only in countries that do not use chip and pin for most transactions like US, some places in HK etc).
• s_dev 7y ago
  I'm with N26 -- tried signing up with Revolut as I heard they had some cool features I didn't have with N26 e.g virtualized cards and crypto currency support. Signed up with my Passport and transferred €50 to the newly created Revolut account. I wait a week still no money in the Revolut account -- contact support. They explain I'm not registered and that I have to register first -- I'm at a loss as they could issue me an IBAN and I'm still not "registered" -- apprently I have to present a passport that isn't American because "they don't accept US passports" even though they did during my onboarding -- since I didn't have another passport available (my Irish one) I asked them to return the money and close the account. It took them 8 weeks to return the €50 with me chasing them everyday for the last two weeks. I don't understand why N26 accept US passports and Revolut don't.
  • peteri 7y ago
    FACTA might be the answer.
  • greatpatton 7y ago
    Because Revolut dones't want to have to manage FACTA and other US extraterritorial laws. Here is Switzerland having a US passport is a good reason to be banished from your physical bank very quickly. US passport holders are seen as a liability and not as a customer. That's also one of the reason that make renouncement of US citizenship quite popular in Switzerland if you have dual citizenship.
    • raverbashing 7y ago
      This. This is the right answer
    • ttoinou 7y ago
      I've been told it's not just being US citizen but also, for example, being US tax resident for the current year
      • Havoc 7y ago
        US citizens and us tax residents are essentially the same burden here. Nobody wants to deal with that unless the potential profits outway the additional costs of the admin
• literallycancer 7y ago
  Take the bank to small claims: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/consumers-dispute-resolution/formal-legal-actions/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/consumers-di... https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/solving-disputes/european-small-claims-procedure/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    This is great, thanks, I plan to. I was going to file with the UK small claims court because I didn't know which jurisdiction, but this is perfect, thank you.
• vendiddy 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I was considering signing up for them but definitely not going to risk it now.
• anilakar 7y ago
  I was under the impression that banks were required to know their customers, which at least until this point has basically required you to visit a physical office with a passport and answer the standard anti-laundering questionnaire. This pretty much has meant that these online-only banks have been illegal to operate. Apparently the "FinTech" boom has resulted in a new low...
  • AdrianB1 7y ago
    They require a passport photo. The anti-laundering part is in the requirements for proof of income, but only for significant amounts in the account or transactioned. For a couple of hundred euro per month they don't ask that.
  • matthewmacleod 7y ago
    No physical presence is required to meet those standards; online-only banks have existed for absolutely ages. The Monzo process for example involved a picture of your passport and a short video.
• ipython 7y ago
  I find it weird they accused you of lying, considering every time I purchase airline tickets the bank receives the full ticket information including the PNR (name information and ticket number) for the issued ticket. For fraudsters wouldn’t that be a huge risk ordering tickets in your own name? Or is there another dimension I’m missing here?
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    Seriously! I have no idea, I assume they can just call the merchant up and ask whose name the tickets were purchased in. I'm pretty sure they won't be in mine, what would be the purpose of that? The scammer just wasted a bunch of tickets if so. I don't know why they don't just call the merchant and get the details. I tried but they wouldn't give me anything or revert the transaction. Also, I just realize there's yet another, even larger declined transaction in the GBP tab (after I canceled the card). So the fraudster actually tried to buy even more travel stuff.
  • greatpatton 7y ago
    The 2 times I had fraud issue with my credit card it was people buying plane ticket. One time it was on Easyjet for a ticket a few hours later and it was clear that the name was completely made up (strangely it appeared on my credit card statement). It seems that travel/air ticket are a major source of fraud.
  • luckylion 7y ago
    > For fraudsters wouldn’t that be a huge risk ordering tickets in your own name? Or is there another dimension I’m missing here? There was a scheme with the German federal train operator Deutsche Bahn last year where they'd buy tickets, cancel them and get a (transferable) voucher for the amount. These vouchers weren't tied to the original transaction, so when the payment was denied later on, the fraudsters still had the "clean" coupon, which they then sold with a margin.
• chx 7y ago
  There is a simple yardstick that made me stay far, far away from Revolut: they deal with bitcoin. I will never trust a single cent of my money on such a company. So far the conduct of Bitcoin exchanges didn't impart the impression of responsible companies. Oftentimes you have downright conmen running them. This is not to say Revolut is cooking the books but touching bitcoin by a fiscal company carries a stench, one that I don't want close to my money.
  • StavrosK 7y ago
    They don't actually deal with cryptocurrencies (like, you can't buy BTC with them). They just added tickers and let you gamble with the price.
    • chx 7y ago
      Huh? https://www.revolut.com/exchange-cryptocurrency https://www.revolut.com/exchange-cryptocurrency "Instantly exchange any of our 29 currencies directly into Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash and XRP, and all without breaking a sweat."
      • StavrosK 7y ago
        Yeah, they don't let you withdraw or deposit any. You have to convert it back to fiat to withdraw.
        • chx 7y ago
          Interesting service. https://www.revolut.com/help/exploring-revolut/exchanging-cryptocurrencies/what-can-t-i-do-with-revolut-cryptocurrency/can-i-transfer-my-cryptocurrency-interest-to-another-wallet/ https://www.revolut.com/help/exploring-revolut/exchanging-cr... > You will not be able to transfer cryptocurrency interests to outside of the Revolut platform, eg. external wallets. And https://www.revolut.com/en-DE/help/exploring-revolut/exchanging-cryptocurrencies/what-can-t-i-do-with-revolut-cryptocurrency/can-i-receive-cryptocurrencies-sent-to-my-revolut-account/ https://www.revolut.com/en-DE/help/exploring-revolut/exchang... > You can receive cryptocurrency interests sent by another Revolut user. However, you will not be able to receive cryptocurrencies sent from outside of the Revolut platform, eg. external wallets Nonetheless, they must be buying and holding crypto"currency" which is enough for me to disqualify. It's better than going full exchange but still.
• Lucadg 7y ago
  don't use their insurance. Recently I was in Istanbul and the insurance didn't activate. Their app did not register me as in Turkey. All permissions were ok, Google Maps worked and I purchased a cappuccino with the Revolut physical card in Istanbul. Still, according to them I was not in Istanbul and there was some problem on my end. So, I was uninsured. Imagine if this happens when you are in the US and you get sick. This is serious stuff, it's just too risky to let them play with it.
  • spuz 7y ago
    How do you know the insurance wasn't activated? Why does the insurance activate based on location rather than date?
    • tooop 7y ago
      I believe that the standard card has the option to purchase insurance and it will be billed only for those days that you were abroad. I don't think that you have to activate anything if you have a plan that includes insurance (premium/metal).
      • Lucadg 7y ago
        Exactly. You can't activate it manually. It's activated by the GPS.
        • stallmanite 7y ago
          If GPS can be spoofed by Pokemon Go hackers this seems like a dumb thing to base anything important on like insurance being active or not. What the fuck?
          • tooop 7y ago
            From user perspective: What are the odds that somebody is going to follow you when you leave your home country and do targeted GPS spoofing specifically for you while causing some kind of accident/harm to you? From Revolut perspective: insurance theoretically could be abused but i doubt they haven't calculated the risks as it would mean losing money although i don't see how this is different than me getting travel insurance online and just providing some travel info that from X to Y i need it.
• nerder92 7y ago
  From the way in which the CEO of this company treats he's own employees you can imagine how he will treat he's clients. This company is just toxic, there are other better options that solves the same problem, N26, Monzo etc check them out
  • codedokode 7y ago
    No sources, no links, nice comment. Aren't you working for a competitor?
    • nerder92 7y ago
      I thought it was not necessary since this story gets HN homepage not so long ago. The initial tweet: https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/1101081229351415808?lang=en https://twitter.com/phillipcaudell/status/110108122935141580... The HN discussione about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19280131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19280131 Note: I don't work for a competitors, but i hate this kind of toxic company cultures since i've been working in similar environments in the past, and this for me is already a strong "ethical" motivator to not use such product.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• virtualritz 7y ago
  Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm cancelling my Revolut account.
• Jefff8 7y ago
  Thank you for posting this: I had been considering using them.
• dastx 7y ago
  Had a similar thing happen to me a few years back. I don't remember ecact numbers details. It was around 1am or so, I was binging some show when I got a notification. I check it, and it's a notification from Revolut. A cash withdrawal was just declined. Okay, interesting. I open it, turns out, someone has tried to withdraw some £600+ from account. From Las Vegas. I thought "but I'm in bed, at home, in London. And I certainly don't have an ATM in my house. I'm too poor for that shit". I think nothing of it, since I've had cash withdrawals disabled anyway. Few minutes later, another attempt. This time, a little less, £400 or so. I quickly deactivate the card and contact customer support. They barely cared. They didn't care about the transaction. They didn't care about all the questions I had. I asked a bunch of questions to see where the people have received the data. Who has reported my card as stolen. Where exactly it was used in Las Vegas, etc etc. Nothing. They couldn't provide me with anything.
• aginovski 7y ago
  Btw, there is a procedure in all banks called dispute request (chargeback request). None of the banks will give you the money back to your debit card without the knowledge of the seller. Imagine how many free items or service you can get if that's possible. So it's not about Revolut. To open a dispute the transaction needs to be settled. After that Revolut or any other bank can give you the option to fill the form and start the dispute procedure where the seller can place their arguments against it. After you submit a dispute the card issuer will review both arguments and make a decision (it depends on the bank). Most of the times when the seller doesn't submit evidence against the dispute you'll receive your money back.
  • luckylion 7y ago
    > Btw, there is a procedure in all banks called dispute request (chargeback request). None of the banks will give you the money back to your debit card without the knowledge of the seller. Imagine how many free items or service you can get if that's possible. So it's not about Revolut. When my wallet was stolen years ago, the thieves immediately used my VISA to buy clothes worth ~700 euros. When I realized it was gone, I informed by bank who disabled my cards. I was told to just wait for the statement, mark all sales that I didn't do or authorize. I did that and faxed them a copy, the money was back in my account the next day. You can "get" free items this way, but you'd commit fraud, and if you get caught, you're going to jail. You can also get free money by robbing a bank, but it's not recommended for similar reasons ;)
    • aginovski 7y ago
      Stolen card is a different type of thing. In that case they need to prove that the card is stolen (like from where the transaction is made and so on, there are procedures). And it often takes a while and several calls from the bank during the investigation. It was like that for me also 2 years ago when I got my card stolen. They called me several times to ask me questions.
      • luckylion 7y ago
        To the card company, the difference between a stolen card that was used by thieves and a seller that fraudulently charges a card is whether you still have access to the card. In both cases, the account holder hasn't authorized the payment, therefore the payment processor had no valid order to process the payment. Since the agreement you have with the card issuer generally only covers authorized payments, they have little ground to stand on unless they can prove that either you did in fact authorize those charges (fraud) or acted with gross negligence (sharing your details with a third party in ways not intended, so not in a payment process). A payment processor isn't (at least where I am) entrusted with any special powers to make judgement calls on whether you deserve your money back based on a potentially existing contract between you and a third party - that's the court's job. Cooperating with them makes it easier, speeds up the process and ensures an ongoing relationship with them, but you don't have to prove that your card was stolen (which is hard to do anyhow) - they have to prove that it was you that authorized the charge. Getting your money back without their cooperation may involve taking them to court though. There's a similar thing with SEPA direct debit. You can pull money from any account (it's trust-based; you're required to provide documentation showing that you were authorized to do so when asked), but the account holder can pull it back for a certain amount of time (iirc, it's six weeks, at least here). The banks do not act as a judge here, they simply put your money back into your account and inform the other bank that the charge has been reversed who then in turn takes it out of the pulling account. If the other account holder believes the charge back to be unlawful (i.e. fraud, or or a charge back because of insufficient balance), they have to bring legal action, but they can't use the bank as a tool in the process.
• gregmolnar 7y ago
  I experienced the other end of the spectrum with Revolut. My wife saw an advert on Facebook for a and indoor children slide, it looked quite nice for a 100 bucks and since I was busy with work, I didn't due any due diligence and ordered the item. Received the confirmation email, then life went on. In about 2 weeks time, I remembered this order and wanted to check the progress. I opened the order summary link from the email, but it was a 404 and oddly the site looked very different than before, this was the first time I had a feeling, I may have been scammed. I replied to the order email, and asked them for a status update. There was no reply within 2 days, so I went to the site again, and looked for the contact details. I found and email address(Gmail), but no company details whatsoever. This was the time when I realised, I got scammed. Anyways, I sent an email to that address, but of course there was no reply. A day later and decided to figure out where is the site hosted and going back to the contact form, I found a new contact email address(an Outlook one). Since then, I checked the site a few times and the contact address was a different one multiple times. Anyways, I realised it is a scam, found out the site is on Shopify, reached out to them and they directed me to my bank. I contacted Revolut, briefed them about what happened, and they started the chargeback process. Oddly a few days after they did that, I got another email from the merchant with a tracking code. In about 2 weeks I received a fidget spinner like plastic crap from China, which I never ordered. I notified Revolut about this too and they also told me, the merchant sent them proof me doing the transaction and want not to allow the chargeback, but since I said at the beginning it was me doing the transaction, just never received the items, I just need to fill out another form, stating this and they will carry on, trying to get my money back. As of today, I still didn't get my money back and I am not sure I ever will, but Revolut was really helpful during the process so far. I am more dissapointed with Shopify, I thought they vet their merchants or at least care about reports of misconducting ones, but they didn't give a crap about me telling them about a scam site running at them. I also found crazy that they don't force the merchant to disclose company details, that's required by the law in many countries.
• solaris152000 7y ago
  I notice a couple of the transactions there are in Greece. I am a Brit living in Greece, and I am SURE some very reputable Greek websites are compromised. My card details get leaked when I buy on Greek sites, I am sure it's them.
• ecmascript 7y ago
  Always had a feeling about this company. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'll be closing my account after this summer. I only signed up because no other service offers virtual credit cards that you can only use 1 time. :/
• packetpirate 7y ago
  Why the hell would you even use a "virtual" card? With the rate at which personal data is being stolen day after day and companies as large as Equifax being breached, why would you trust your money with an all-virtual bank? Especially one that is so new? It's just asking for trouble. I've had the same bank since I was 17 and they have literally never let me down, and the couple of times I had a fraudulent transaction occur, they automatically flagged it and called me to ask if it was legitimate.
  • AlexandrB 7y ago
    Bitcoin and some of the financial startups seem like efforts at educating the public about why regulation exists.
  • literallycancer 7y ago
    "Virtual card" is a thing in their app. You still have a physical card. The virtual card is for shady shops and such, so that you can delete it afterwards with a single click.
  • tooop 7y ago
    Virtual card is a disposable card that you can use X times (or whatever you set it up). For example, i use virtual cards for services that require CC info in order to register for trial, this way i don't have to remember about my trials expiring and getting charged (because i set the virtual card to be used only once / delete it right after i have used it).
  • rchaud 7y ago
    Fintech companies market their products specifically towards people who see themselves as "rugged individualists" who don't need the nanny state to look after them, or millennials who are untrusting of big banks after 2008. I fall into the second category, but I'm also aware that what little I have in $bigBankCo is covered under depositor's insurance, and I'm good as long as I don't sign up for their usurious lines of credit or things like that. And I've seen way too many smarmy startup dudes promising customers the earth, moon and the stars if they join their revolutionary "non-bank". No thanks.
  • 7y ago
• Double_a_92 7y ago
  People are actually using revolut as a bank to store their savings on? I always saw it more as a fancy prepaid creditcard.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• sails 7y ago
  As a user of both Revolut and Monzo, thumbs up for Monzo, I’ve had minor issues dealt with very quickly and successfully. Revoult has a slightly broader feature set, leading to these issues, whereas Monzo does core banking really well.
• pjc50 7y ago
  It's a failure, but it's absolutely not unique to challenger banks. Just remember the news availability heuristic - you're seeing this because it's tech news. If you want to read more banking horror stories there's https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-investigates/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jessica-investigates/ (paywall, also most of the rest of the Telegraph is bad) or the MoneySavingExpert forums. Business banking can be even worse customer service: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-investigation-grg-fca-whitewash-small-businesses-a8957391.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/rbs-investi...
• noisy_boy 7y ago
  Maybe I'm just old but I would never put my money in an institution where I can't go to their branch/office and talk to a human. Typically this is hardly needed with all the digital convenience but when things go wrong, it is truly worth it.
  • icebraining 7y ago
    That's not a guarantee anymore; in some banks here, the person behind the desk is just a glorified form filler. Everything has to go to the central offices anyway.
    • noisy_boy 7y ago
      Yes depends where you are; where I am, there are still some people in the branches who know how to do their job.
  • chimen 7y ago
    I'm with ING here in Romania and one day I went to a "human" there and took out some cash that I wanted to deposit. They got scared that I took out money in front of them. Banks are not the same.
• spurgu 7y ago
  I had a similar issue around two years ago (multiple travel transactions, some Indian), although it was one of my physical cards (which I had barely used anywhere). I didn't have enough funds at the time so nothing was charged and I immediately reported the card stolen. After this I've tried to keep my balance below €300 with the rest in vaults to minimize the risk - whenever I need to make a larger transaction I just withdraw money from the vaults before.
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• imartin2k 7y ago
  So far I’ve had only great experiences with Revolut. Using them mostly when abroad, the currency exchange features are nifty, as is the fact that you can load up with money from credit cards with no fee (in the EU). Generally I find them pretty innovative and way superior to all traditional banks I’ve ever been a customer of. But it’s obvious that this doesn’t translate into an equally good experience once there are problems. So this case is a good reminder to use these neobanks mindfully and to not put too many eggs in this basket.
• totaldude87 7y ago
  Its funny to see that "Digital" only banks are failing to solve the problems which they were created for :)
• fatline 7y ago
  very sorry to hear that. Debit cards are convenient etc, but they don't offer much in terms of fraud protection. The general suggestion is to always use a credit card instead so that you don't expose your own money to theft, but the bank's. This is among the most important learnings you can get from Frank Abagnale's talk at Google (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMydMDi3rI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMydMDi3rI)
• StavrosK 7y ago
  UPDATE: Revolut have emailed me in response to my official complaint (possibly after seeing my post gain attention, I can't say for sure). They admitted it was a mistake to decline my chargeback and have refunded me the purchase. They also said they would take measures to avoid this from happening again, hopefully they make good on that promise. Thank you all very much for your help and support, I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else.
  • sagebird 7y ago
    It's disgusting that you had to raise a shitstorm on their internal support, then on twitter and then hacker news to get your chargeback. Will others be savvy enough to raise this attention? I would rather that a regulator went to bat for you and slapped them with a large fine. Because as it stands they can do the same thing to everyone else, only give refunds when someone raises attention and perhaps this only accounts for 1% of the cases. They are going to take measures to swat stories down quicker before they create bad press, but there is likely a good reason for their behavior so expect no uniform change.
    • StavrosK 7y ago
      Yeah, that's completely inexcusable. Maybe I should have given them time to respond to the official complaint, and maybe they would have fixed it, but I don't want to tell a company "someone just stole 1k euros from me, please stop them!" and hear back "it's your fault".
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    • danShumway 7y ago
      It's becoming increasingly clear to me that most customer support for modern tech products is happening via social media. Building a large enough following that you're capable of generating an outrage machine when something goes wrong is becoming almost a kind of insurance policy now. In the short term, I imagine this is better for companies, since a very small number of these incidents actually generate enough outrage to need fixing. In the long term, I wonder if companies will ultimately regret creating an environment where every consumer immediately goes public with every complaint they have on social media as soon as something goes wrong?
• ppcdeveloper 7y ago
  hmmm...this company is coming to the US per it's website. Hmmm ...smh.
• trickstra 7y ago
  > They can’t even give a list of all my data under the GDPR GDPR specifically states the opposite - that they have to give you all the data they have about you when you ask.
• codedokode 7y ago
  It is very dangerous to use banking apps or sites from Android phone. Please Google how many "root" exploits are around. Any application or website can attack your phone, and if it succeeds then your money are gone. You should use a phone only as a second factor for authentication.
• olivermarks 7y ago
  https://www.zdnet.com/article/fintech-bankings-frozen-customer-account-nightmares-problem/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/fintech-bankings-frozen-custom... https://www.zdnet.com/article/revoluts-clumsy-automated-fintech-bank-compliance-results-in-frozen-accounts-and-lack-of-customer-service/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/revoluts-clumsy-automated-fint... Two widely read posts I wrote on ZDNet in January
• novaleaf 7y ago
  He's using a debit card, not a credit card. Non refundable debit card purchases isn't a problem unique to Revolut. If this happened with a bank of america debit card, you'd face the same problem. This is why I explicitly refuse to carry debit cards. Only ATM cards and credit cards. If you use DEBIT cards, you don't get the same kind of protections you get with CREDIT cards.
  • awinder 7y ago
    Yes, that, and credit cards also have +30 days of float essentially built in. So when you run into billing errors or fraud you have time for it to unwind itself / you won't have actively lost money until you need to settle up.
• TooSmugToFail 7y ago
  Revolut indeed does not care for you. I was one of the early adopters and their ardent evangelist. I probably hooked more than 10 people to Revolut. Before they were giving any incentives for referrals. But their customer support turned to shit, their exchange rates became less 'fair', and their service became much, much worse. A few examples... (1) I traveled to the US, had troubles activating the travel insurance, contacted customer support, got it working. All good. A few months later, I find weird charges on my account. Contact customer support, ask about the charges. Turns out they charged me insurance fee for days that I was apparently insured, a month later. Best part: I had absolutely zero proof that I was insured at the time I was supposedly insured (take a guess how that would work out for me if I had to make a claim). (2) I was trying to use their travel insurance again (between my first trip, and their fraudulent charge). The insurance is supposed to auto-activate when you travel abroad, but it did not. Contact customer support as soon as I realised (after arriving to the US), but they refused to activate it cause I already reached my destination. Had to get a different insurance, having to drive 1.000 km in the US without health insurance, before my new travel insurance kicked in. Luckily, nothing happened. (3) We tried to open a company account. Us three owners were registered as authorised persons in the application form. Our application got refused, no explanation. Plus they froze PERSONAL accounts of my two co-founders for around two weeks. No access to their funds, no explanation. Try contacting the customer support, only to have a bot spew boilerplate nonsense at you. After a few weeks, their accounts just started working again. Explanation? Apology? You wish. Bottom line is, they can't be trusted, let alone relied upon for anything even remotely important. Worst thing is their entire pitch was about how they are on a mission to improve 'bad old banks', yet they failed on very fundamentals of banking. For me, they are a Ryanair of financial services: cheap, but will screw you if they get a chance; and good luck if anything goes wrong. A few days ago they sent an email offering their Metal cards for referrals. A few years ago I was doing that for free. Today there is no chance I would recommend Revolut to anyone.
• rgaino 7y ago
  Revolut also blatantly copied Spotify's ad campaign. https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/turkey-week-revolut-took-inspiration-read-ripped-off-spotify/1524278 https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/turkey-week-revolut-t...
• esalman 7y ago
  > "I’m extremely careful about my financial security ... Revolut is one of a new generation of banks that are app-only" I wouldn't open an account with this bank if I were careful about my financial security.
• Improvotter 7y ago
  I'm moving to the UK soon and was looking at Monzo for my bank. Looking at Monzo, not Revolut, and others, which ones would everyone here recommend for bank accounts, debit cards, and credit cards?
• kadira 7y ago
  public shamming really works!
• teekert 7y ago
  Can they do this without the CVC code?
• vectorEQ 7y ago
  "So I’m extremely careful about my financial security," "one of a new generation of banks that are app-only" sounds legit... :s
• stefek99 7y ago
  Publicity driven support. Twitter is too big to care: https://steemit.com/twitter/@genesisre/decentralizeeverything-9-years-on-twitter-with-no-right-to-appeal https://steemit.com/twitter/@genesisre/decentralizeeverythin... 9 years, had to totally rethink my online identity. Massive blow.
• mcv 7y ago
  I'm still baffled that "leaking card details" is enough to compromise an account. You'd think money would have better security than some random website, but instead you basically need the equivalent of just the login and no password to get access to the money.