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All Chromebooks will also be Linux laptops going forward

556 points by CrankyBear 8y ago

ufo 8y ago
One thing I never quite understood is why is it so hard to install a regular GNU/Linux distro on a chromebook. Why is it not possible to just put a liveUSB in the USB port and install it like you would on any personal computer?
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  Something in the specialized firmware/BIOS prevents it, I think? The only Chromebook I ever did this with was the original Chromebook Pixel, and flashing a regular BIOS onto it to let me treat it like any other computer required specifically opening the laptop up to remove the Write-Protect screw on the motherboard. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/86362 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/...
  - klodolph 8y ago
    One of the things about Chromebooks that make them different is no BIOS altogether, right?
    - lima 8y ago
      They do have a (customized) UEFI BIOS based on CoreBoot.
      - klodolph 8y ago
        CoreBoot, BIOS, and UEFI are alternatives to each other. While you might have firmware that has various compatibility modes, my understanding is that CoreBoot does not provide a BIOS interface at all, and you need the SeaBIOS payload if you want BIOS from CoreBoot.
  - lima 8y ago
    Yes - for security reasons. Chrome OS has a full verified boot chain, starting from the BIOS, like a smartphone. You cannot tamper with Chrome OS or access user data without password even with physical access to the device. None of this works with a 3rd party OS, so you have to disable the secured boot and possible re-flash a different BIOS (similar to unprotecting the bootloader on a phone).
    - dontbenebby 8y ago
      >Chrome OS has a full verified boot chain, starting from the BIOS, like a smartphone. You cannot tamper with Chrome OS or access user data without password even with physical access to the device. [emphasis added] Ooooh interesting, I'd love to read more about this. Does this logic apply to iOS as well? (Can't evil maid an iPhone due to verified BIOS?) What about macOS?
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        iOS has a verified boot chain that you cannot disable, and newer Macs have this too but you can disable it.
    - Crinus 8y ago
      And like most "security reasons" they just take away control from the user and give it to whoever implements that security. Security against whom, i wonder. The narrative says, against malicious actors, but way more often than not, it ends up being security against the computer's owner.
      - wstrange 8y ago
        The procedure to get around the locked bootloader is documented. For the vast majority of users, a secure by default laptop is a win.
- kevsprk 8y ago
  Chromebooks use Coreboot firmware with a specialized payload called Depthcharge. This bootloader is customized for ChromiumOS and doesn't boot Linux/Windows. To install Linux/Windows on a Chromebook, you have to flash this firmware, usually replacing it with Coreboot with the Tianocore payload, which is a bootloader capable of booting other OS's. (MrChromeBox supplies this custom firmware for lots of devices)
  - dingaling 8y ago
    But, why? What advantages does this offer Google beyond a 'normal' UEFI chain?
    - iamnothere 8y ago
      It's about achieving physical security against all but highly dedicated and competent attackers. There's a great overview here: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    Yea I feel like this article is pretty misleading. It would be better if Google officially supported removing the entire ChromeOS and doing a full install of any Linux distro you want. This isn't really running Linux on your Chromebook. It's running a chroot of another distro under their Linux kernel/GUI layer. It's pretty different.
    - amelius 8y ago
      If this is true, then this is very disappointing.
    - seabrookmx 8y ago
      It's not even a chroot. That's how crouton works. Crostini, the google provided solution, actually runs all the "containers" under a KVM virtual machine. So it's even more abstracted.
- bubblethink 8y ago
  Two main reasons. Chromebooks ship seabios as a legacy payload, but they do not explicitly test or support it for any particular use case. Second, chromeos kernel deviates from mainline and it takes a lot of time for the changes to make their way to the mainline kernel.
- stevewillows 8y ago
  Like others have said, once you install the Mr Chromebox stuff, you can technically run any flavor of linux you like. The major issue you'll run into is support for wifi, the proper keyboard layout and audio. The GalliumOS team has built a custom kernel for a range of Chromebooks, though. I believe a lot of their work will be merged with the main kernel in the future, but its not there yet. I run Gallium3-Beta (Xubuntu 18.04) on an old Toshiba Chromebook 2, and it runs like a dream (considering the hardware) with around 8 - 10 hours on the battery.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Security. By default, Chromebooks use a trusted boot path. The boot sequence starts in ROM and the firmware image is verified during boot. Booting unsigned firmware is possible but slightly inconvenient by design, to ensure that no user would do this accidentally or as a result of malicious actions. https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/verified-boot https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/...
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    I don't see why this is specific to Chromebooks. On x86_64/UEFI, I can sign my Grub EFI loader, load my keys into secure book (delete the stock/microsoft ones), re-enable secure boot, password it and now I have a reasonable expectation that I am booting the OS I think I am. It'd be nice if Google opened up their actual bootloader so you could do the same with Chromebooks without needing 3rd party tools.
mfatica 8y ago
Between this and Windows shipping a linux kernel, 2019 really is shaping up to be the year of the linux desktop
- outside1234 8y ago
  Well Terminal at least.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - guelo 8y ago
    Chromebooks can run GUI linux apps.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      Yep. Using the containers to run sublime text and factorio on a chromebook.
- mrbonner 8y ago
  "XXXX really is shaping up to be the year of the linux desktop" Damn, if I have a dollar for every time I hear that phrase :-) Joking aside, I think either MS initiative with WLS or ChromeOS with Linux container could be the solution to this abominable Linux desktop debacle.
  - patrick5415 8y ago
    What debacle? I’ve been using Debian as my daily driver for the past 5 years without issue. I’ve run it a dell desktop, and laptops from Lenovo, toshiba and Sony and it’s always been a solid experience. My experience doing a fresh windows install has been far less pleasant and have had graphics cards that work properly in Linux, but not windows 10.
- asveikau 8y ago
  We finally get the year of Linux on the desktop, so long as your Linux is totally subservient to another kernel built and signed by a corporate behemoth. Sounds like progress.
cameronbrown 8y ago
This might be good news for Linux-on-the-desktop (indirectly). People have said for years the thing needed most is app support for high-end workloads like gaming and creative (think Adobe suite). I can't think of any use case beyond these, 90% of other stuff can be done in a web browser, and I'd say legacy software is the only exception. There's developer mindshare, but I'm not convinced there's much of a business case. I'd say the intersection of high-end Chromebooks and users who'd do gaming/video editing/etc.. on one, is asymptotically small.
- hadsed 8y ago
  What's the difference between a high end Chromebook and, say, a MacBook Air? The latter of which is used by some (though certainly not most) technical professionals.
  - cameronbrown 8y ago
    macOS has the support and has had the support for decades for this stuff whereas there are very few high end Chromebooks (i.e. mostly Google Pixelbook) and none with high end software.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    macOS?
- sneak 8y ago
  Premiere/FCPX, After Effects, and Photoshop are not “legacy software” - but you covered those. There are also lots of CAD/CAM tools that do not, and likely will never, run in browser. I’d love a web-based version of IDA. We’re still a ways off; 90% there is still a half day of work each week that I simply can’t do on iOS/browser/ChromeOS. For that stuff I need a “real computer”, and will for the foreseeable future. It would be nice if iOS got a yellowbox, for example - running a desktop os x sandbox on my iPad Pro for the stuff that won’t ever switch would be really useful. ChromeOS adding Linux in a VM was a brilliant move.
  - 8y ago
i_am_proteus 8y ago
> A Chromebook with all three operating systems running at once is also darn useful for an ordinary Jane or Joe. For example, I can edit images using Linux GIMP and write with LibreOffice Writer while looking at pictures using Android Pinterest and simultaneously check my Gmail in Chrome OS. It's all good. For example, I can edit images using Linux GIMP and write with LibreOffice Writer while looking at pictures using Firefox on Linux and simultaneously check my Gmail in Firefox on Linux. It's all good.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  ChromeOS adding almost zero value here. Faster Gapps? Kinda. The explorer is better for drive files, for sure. Can unlock with my Android phone. Cool, I guess? Can't think of any other reason to boot to ChromeOS.
  - sempron64 8y ago
    ChromeOS power management is amazing, and makes 8-12 hours of battery life while using the browser a reality. Firefox saps the battery incredibly quickly, though I prefer to use it when that's not an issue. For me, the battery life is a huge technical value add, and is why I prefer to use linux via crouton on my acer c720 over installing it directly. I haven't tried the new Android app support but I think that will be huge as well for mobile-centric consumers.
  - tdb7893 8y ago
    If you're mainly just going to be using a browser (which is true most of the time for me) I don't know why you would want to boot anything else. At the end of the day most operating systems I use are interchangeable for my workflow so unless you need a specific tool there's rarely a reason to use over over another.
    - jklinger410 8y ago
      >I don't know why you would want to boot anything else The privacy and convenience Firefox offers me over Chrome, to start. Containers, etc. Programs that run as programs but not Chrome Apps (Signal, Email, ETC)
addicted 8y ago
I haven’t really used Chromebooks, so this is a genuine question, and not meant to be rhetorical. In a 3 OS ChromeBook, what does ChromeOS bring to the table that Linux and Android don’t already cover?
- sverige 8y ago
  Surveillance by Google.
  - adam12 8y ago
    I'd be ok if it just stopped at Google. edit: (government didn't have access to the data)
    - bhandziuk 8y ago
      I don't really get this attitude. I trust the government more than Google
      - thedaemon 8y ago
        Exactly, a private corporation has no public control/oversight board. Our government is run for and by the people. I wonder where this mindset was started.
        bhandziuk 8y ago
        Agreed. I'm of the mindset that the government is me basically. Maybe I disagree with them sometimes but I have the ability to change their behavior. I have no control over private companies (even if they are publiclly traded)
      - muro 8y ago
        ... to do what? You can vote to change the government in most countries, you can't with Google. But Google won't leak your data and will delete it when you request it. What do you trust the government to do better? Or what do you think google will do with it? Edit: I understand you don't want Google to have your data, that is fully your choice. I'm just curious what risk you are concerned about.
Ajedi32 8y ago
Now all they need to do is integrate Wine and Proton, and Chrome OS will be able to easily run games and applications from 4 different operating systems.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  What is Proton?
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    It’s Steam’s Wine derivative: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton
- theparanoid 8y ago
  CrossOver has a beta Android version that I use to run IE, Adobe Reader, etc.
jammygit 8y ago
> Linux on Chromebook laptops is not a dual-boot operation. You're running both operating systems simultaneously. That means, for example, you can do things like clicking on a document file via the Chrome OS file manager and open it with LibreOffice -- without even starting a Linux session. Disappointed they agent just really good Linux laptops where we can wipe chromeOS off of.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  You can do this if you want, and you can dual-boot them as well.
dontbenebby 8y ago
Why not just... run linux... instead of running linux in a VM on Chrome OS? (Or if you like having separate VMs for separate stuff, support Qubes?) This is cool and a step in the right direction but I'd still prefer to Just Run Linux
- glenrivard 8y ago
  Security for one.
- 0xCMP 8y ago
  Security and peace of mind. The "full" Linux is sandboxed and more like an App than a full OS (think WSL). The ChromeOS part is already tightly locked down too. On things like the Pixelbook you have very strong hardware and firmware guarantees that you're running what you should be or at least have a verifiable way to fix that by re-flashing/wiping.
- aeroevan 8y ago
  You can (and I do), but it requires disabling the verified boot process that makes Cromebook security so nice.
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    > You can (and I do), but it requires disabling the verified boot process that makes Cromebook security so nice. Thanks I did not consider this point. Being able to trust your device is important. I'd love to read more if you know of any resources - evil maids remain the chink in the armor for even the most privacy conscious :)
    - aeroevan 8y ago
      Sorry for the late reply, but https://mrchromebox.tech/ https://mrchromebox.tech/ has most of the information. That and /r/chrultrabook/ and maybe a few other subreddits.
      - 8y ago
petilon 8y ago
This breaks the security benefits of Chromebooks. One of the advantages of Chromebooks is that hackers can't persuade naive users to download and run binaries. Previously a company could issue Chromebooks to all employees and know that employees can't run arbitrary binaries on their Chromebooks.
- esrauch 8y ago
  Presumably they can still set that as a device policy.
- glenrivard 8y ago
  Does not break security because of how Google implemented. It is also why MS has copied for WSL 2.
- 0xCMP 8y ago
  It's all sandboxed and I'm sure they can disable the feature being there to increase security
- mav3rick 8y ago
  It runs in a VM for precisely this reason. Look into the design docs and see how every piece is further locked down using minijail.
  - rptr_87 7y ago
    Document links: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/security-overview https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/... https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/system-hardening https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/...
- carlosdp 8y ago
  I don't think it does. Linux is run in an isolated VM and debian is run in a container exposed to the user. The only filesystem interactions between ChromeOS and Linux are via Fuse and can only be transferred between environments from the ChromeOS side.
ipsum2 8y ago
All Chromebooks and Chrometops are already Linux laptops. You can install Crouton (easy chroot) and have an Ubuntu or whatever your favorite distro is in <15 minutes.
- carlosdp 8y ago
  Sure, but now it's literally just a button click and it's in the same environment as ChromeOS, no need to reboot to switch between.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Also native file sharing between the linux containers and ChromeOS.
- chrisdfrey 8y ago
  You have to enable developer mode to run crouton; you don't have to do that to run Linux apps. Unfortunately I couldn't get crouton to work on a chromebook I bought recently; after switching into a chroot the screen would freeze. I think the issue might be that my chromebook has an AMD APU and an older kernel.
- jasonvorhe 8y ago
  At the expense of security. You're also at risk of wiping your hard drive by accident whenever you hit the wrong during bootup. Recommending Developer Mode is never a good idea.
beat 8y ago
It's been working on older Chromebooks, too. I have a crappy three year old ARM-based Samsung that has followed along with the OS upgrades, as Chromebooks do. I now do a fair bit of development in its terminal (and more by ssh into a DigitalOcean VM). I often think of getting a more muscular Intel-based Chromebook as a general-purpose development box.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kickingvegas 8y ago
X11 is never going to die.
- cbolton 8y ago
  This is implemented using Wayland, not X11. I just checked on my Chromebook, GTK+ apps use Wayland by default, Qt5 apps use X11 by default (through Xwayland) and look ugly when told to use Wayland. I guess X11 is going to stay as a compatibility layer, but this won't help it stay to the front.
carlosdp 8y ago
I think a lot of people underestimate how cool this actually is. I use a Pixelbook now as a main dev device (used to use a Mac like everyone else in the valley). With Linux in ChromeOS, this thing now runs basically 3 OSs (Chrome/Web PWAs, Android, Linux) in one environment. What this means is that I open my app drawer, and I see app icons I can launch. I don't know or care what actual OS those apps are running on! It could be a PWA or an android app or a linux app and it works and runs the same as any of the other apps. All without compromising on the security isolation benefits of ChromeOS.
- millstone 8y ago
  Do you actually not know what OS those apps are running on? Aren't there extremely stark and obvious differences between the three classes of apps?
  - groovybits 8y ago
    Yes, you know what OS its running. To install a Linux application, you explicitly have to open the Linux container command line (which is Debian Stretch) and run the install commands. Ex: If I run 'apt install firefox', Firefox will be installed in the Linux container, but will be available to run from the ChromeOS app menu. Edit: Also, currently you need to explicitly go in the ChromeOS settings to download and install the Linux container. I'm not sure if this will change or not, but it is not currently included by default.
  - wffurr 8y ago
    Sometimes only if you look for small details. The ChromeOS launcher mixes Chrome Apps, bookmarks, PWAs, and Android apps with only a small badge to differentiate if you have multiple of the same app (e.g. Keep Chrome app and Keep for Android).
    - millstone 8y ago
      But once they're running, don't they look and behave very differently? The last time I tried Android Firefox on ChromeOS, it had to quit to resize its window.
chrisdfrey 8y ago
One advantaage to dual booting is you can get hardware acceleration, which you don't currently get with Linux apps in ChromeOS (though they are working on it). Another is that most chromebooks have 4gb of ram which isn't much for running a VM on top of an OS.
- lima 8y ago
  They're working on it, though.
- ewoodrich 8y ago
  Hardware acceleration is working fine on the Dev channel with a flag. Shouldn't be too long before it's on by default and available on stable.
bArray 8y ago
If I understand this correctly it's just running Debian in a VM/container? I quite like the Chromebook hardware but I don't want to run ChromeOS (and whatever data collection crap-ware they run), when can we just install any OS we want?
- acolumb 8y ago
  IIRC Chromium OS doesn't collect the data the way the closed-source Chrome OS does. It's a great OS for getting work done (on Gapps, of course.) Debian (and all other userspace-run operating systems) are in a container.
- chrisdfrey 8y ago
  You can boot from USB or other partitions on some chromebooks; see GalliumOS: https://galliumos.org/ https://galliumos.org/
- nailer 8y ago
  > Linux on Chromebook laptops is not a dual-boot operation. You're running both operating systems simultaneously. It's really vague. But yes sounds like a container with a seamless window manager via Wayland.
umvi 8y ago
My $150 (Acer) chromebook has lasted me 5 years (and counting) and is still just as fast as the day I bought it. My $1500 macbook pro that I bought at the same time got noticeably more sluggish over the years by comparison, and I've had to bring it in for repairs twice for hardware failures (once for hard drive cable, once for HDD itself) - I sold the MBP last year and bought a Lenovo. Truly amazing. With this change, I could probably even get rid of the Lenovo and just have a single Chromebook for all my needs since all I really used the MBP for was the unixy CLI.
- rockostrich 8y ago
  >once for hard drive cable, once for HDD itself Considering that the Acer Chromebook probably has flash memory, I don't see how this is a fair comparison. I have a 2012 Macbook Air and Macbook Pro that have had no issues. The Macbook Air is my general around the house laptop and the MBP is used as a Plex box. Still do everything I need them to do and the only issue is the battery life of the Macbook Air since it's gone through way too many charge cycles.
  - umvi 8y ago
    So why is that Acer is able to afford an SSD in a $150 computer, but Apple can't afford an SSD in a $1500 computer? Heck, Apple still doesn't have SSDs in their latest gen (2019) iMacs...
    - rockostrich 8y ago
      The Acer is probably flash memory, not an SSD. The $1500 iMac has a "1 TB fusion drive" which is apparently a hybrid of flash memory and an HDD (and all iMacs have the option to be configured with an SSD). I have no idea why they don't have it by default. They probably have a bunch of data that shows that the main consumers of iMacs don't know the difference or don't care. I'm just pointing out that your comparison was not genuine because you compared a problem with a component on one laptop that the other doesn't have.
      - 8y ago
intrasight 8y ago
One less reason to consider a Mac :)
p1mrx 8y ago
There's a still a big catch: normally, when a computer "runs Linux", you can keep installing new Linux distros until the hardware dies, which could be decades in the future. Chromebooks reach "end of life" after a few (edit: ≤ 6.5) years, effectively becoming software-defined garbage: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 You can install Linux on some Chromebooks, but it's often a lot of work to disable the "press Space to erase your operating system" prompt. It would be better if all EoL Chromebooks received an update to disable secure boot, because secure boot stops being secure when it boots you to an unpatchable OS.
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  why not just a UEFI menu where you can implicitly authorize the private key by simply entering a public key of choice? 1024 bit = 128 bytes = 256 hexadecimal digits. Totally feasible to enter manually...
  - derefr 8y ago
    Because that’s still something an MITM in your hardware logistics chain could do to keylog you, which is what the trusted-boot sequence is designed to prevent. It might make sense to have a the ability to enter a UEFI key that would disable the dangerous “press to erase” prompt, but I don’t think it would ever make sense to make such a modified machine boot completely silently and “out-of-the-box like” (unless you don’t believe they should have secure boot as a design goal in the first place.) Probably the most burning in a UEFI key would do is change the “this is a dev-mode laptop” warning to a “this is a customized deployment; if you were expecting a device direct from Google, you are being attacked!” warning.
  - knodi123 8y ago
    > 128 bytes = 256 hexadecimal digits. Totally feasible to enter manually... This looks like a job for QR codes!
- acolumb 8y ago
  To be fair, there is a 15-minute mod (mrchromebox.tech) that allows for all Intel Chromebooks =<Kaby Lake to install an open UEFI that supports Windows, Linux and even Clover/MacOS in some cases.
sandworm101 8y ago
Incorrect title. A "linux latop" is a laptop running linux as its OS. These are chromebooks that allow the user to also run linux, but they are still chromebooks. Their definitive feature, the bit that cannot be removed, is that they run as chromebooks. Title should read "All Chromebooks will also run linux on demand". They aren't linux laptops.
- muro 8y ago
  GNU/Linux
- jdietrich 8y ago
  ChromeOS is a Linux distro. If you're going to be pedantic, the title should read "Chromebooks have always been Linux laptops, but now they also run a sandboxed version of Debian".
- asveikau 8y ago
  I agree the title misunderstands the concept. I think it's more like "we'll make it really easy for you to have a nice chroot". Replacing the kernel will still require hoops to jump through. It is a bit dishonest to call that "linux laptop" on equal footing with a conventional PC that allows you to trivially wipe the whole disk and replace it with your own kernel.
jancsika 8y ago
A Linux laptop that forces the user to log into Google in order to use their Linux laptop. Am I correct? I can't imagine I'm not since there's no way ChromeOS's security model would work otherwise.
- iams- 8y ago
  No. You're not correct. All chromebooks can be run in guest mode which requires no login at all. Google has a long-standing bounty on the security of guest-mode.
  - jancsika 8y ago
    So we've redefined "Linux laptop" to mean a system that returns to the base Debian install any time I log out or reboot? On the other hand, Chromebooks are cheap. So it might be a fun exercise to post a script on github that installs my development environment packages.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
I want to make the leap from Mac to Linux, I'm fairly computer savvy and 'can handle' Linux, but I'm just wary of missing out on some things. Like some Adobe products. Can someone chime in on the viability of Chromebook/Linux as a replacement for not just dev, but common computing tasks as well as creative work? (Photoshop, After Effects, editing etc.)
- theparanoid 8y ago
  It's OK with CrossOver for Linux. I ended up just using Krita. If you're a heavy Adobe user Chromebooks are underpowered (except the Pixel).
fc_barnes 8y ago
Will someone please enable some magic sysrq functionality on machines with reduced keyboards? This is coming from a person who has had to open up his Chromebook and unplug the battery internally when it inevitably crapped itself from OOM and was nonresponsive to any key press.
jasonhansel 8y ago
Can we now say that open source OS kernels have, officially, beaten proprietary ones? Even Windows has a Linux compatibility layer. This would have been unimaginable 10 years ago, when Linux desktops were far from mainstream.
- freehunter 8y ago
  That heavily depends on the definition of "beaten", and also what "open source kernels" actually means in context. A compatibility layer means little, considering Linux has had a Windows compatibility layer far longer than vice versa. And does an open source kernel matter much when the userland is closed source and proprietary? Or when the apps are closed source and proprietary? Or when computing shifts to a closed source and proprietary Internet environment?
xiii1408 8y ago
This is great news! Chromebooks are dirt cheap and for the most part have amazing build quality and keyboards for the price point. I just can't stand the flimsy plastics and hinges of most "normal" laptops at that price. I used Arch Linux on a Toshiba Chromebook 2 as a primary laptop for about two years, but eventually moved away from it because my bootloader got un-blessed due to the battery zero'ing out, and I didn't want to deal with it. I guess Chromebooks are back on my radar!
- toast0 8y ago
  If you're not planning to run Chrome OS, I'd definitely recommend making the effort to flash a 3rd party bootrom from https://mrchromebox.tech/ https://mrchromebox.tech/ or the no longer updating https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download/ https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download... I had better luck with booting FreeBSD on an Acer C720; but I think Mr. Chromebox's bioses keep getting better and better.
  - xiii1408 8y ago
    Thanks for the rec! I unfortunately decided to install RW_LEGACY years ago when I set it up. It's now in a weird state where it has SeaBIOS installed but legacy boot is disabled. From what I've read, I need to boot into a Chrome OS recovery to enable legacy boot, which should allow everything to work. But I haven't been able to find a simple Chrome OS recovery shell image for me to boot into, so I'm kind of stuck rn.
    - toast0 8y ago
      From this state, I would try a full Chrome OS recovery [1], which I believe will put the firmware back to stock (especially if write protect is disabled), and then start again with the 3rd party scripts. Alternatively, I think I've seen instructions [2] for reflashing the bios using a different device, but I haven't screwed things up that much yet :D [1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chromebook-recovery-utili/jndclpdbaamdhonoechobihbbiimdgai https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chromebook-recover... instructions here: https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1080595?hl=en https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1080595?hl=en [2] https://wiki.mrchromebox.tech/Unbricking https://wiki.mrchromebox.tech/Unbricking
wanderfowl 8y ago
One thing to remember is that as of a month or so ago, there are serious limitations on the functionality of Linux apps. For instance, accessing your Google Drive files with Linux isn't straightforwardly possible, and another big one for me being that Linux apps cannot record audio. Additionally, backing up the Linux partition wasn't straightforward and wasn't a part of the normal 'Powerwash it and it restores' backup element of ChromeOS. I tried to use this to reduce my dependence on a MBP, but found a number of these little gaps that just couldn't quite be filled. I'm hoping these get improved with time, but as of right now, it's promising, but not delivered.
- andrewmutz 8y ago
  It is rapidly improving. Relating to two of the items you mentioned: In just the last few months they added cloud backups for linux containers, and linux access for your google drive. I switched from the mac for my full-time machine a few months ago and have been blown away. It does two things really well and securely: web browsers and linux. These are the two things I need to do my job.
  - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
    Completely agree. I switched full time to a Pixelbook from Mac after getting frustrated with the new Macbooks (hate the touchbar, and a Macbook with a stuck key is basically an unusable computer). One more thing to add is that they just added the ability for Linux apps to output audio in the latest stable release, so don't think recording would be too far away, although that has greater security issues of course.
mattlondon 8y ago
I've been doing this for a little while on a cheapo chromebook. It works, but it is brutally slow and clunky (this is on a 2018 entry-level intel celeron n3350 + 4gb ram chromebook) to run something like firefox. It is usable, but you'll get frustrated fairly fast. Unfortunately the same can be said about the chromebook in general - have more than one browser tab open on a javascript heavy page (e.g. large google doc + gmail + calendar) and its really slow there too anyway so I guess I cant hope for much. I feel like web apps have got significantly more complex, while the compute in the entry level chromebooks has more or less stagnated over the past few years. Just doesn't feel like there is enough power to make things comfortable and seamless to use. I've used a couple of intel i5/i7 chromebooks and they've been lovely to use with snappy performance, but the price for that performance is approaching/exceeding that of a "real" laptop (sometimes wildly exceeding the price of a normal windows laptop, or even a mac for the case of Google's chromebooks) so it kinda defeats the point in my mind. I used to recommend chromebooks to all non-tech savvy people who asked me (parents, relatives, friends etc), now I hesitate to do so because the performance is just not there unless you really pay huge sums.
- omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
  The script heavy stuff in general is a pain in my experience. I have a 2995U + 4gb ram chromebook that just runs Arch, and gmail/drive/etc are crazy slow. Even scrolling through the newest stuff on thingiverse for an hour with however many loaded images is faster than some of google's pages/apps. On the plus side, Firefox seems to handle 50-100+ loaded tabs well as long as there isn't too much stuff going on with them.
  - sosodev 8y ago
    What's your Arch setup? You might want to fiddle with some of the settings in Firefox to try and get more hardware acceleration.
    - omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
      Thanks for the heads up! I enabled layout.display-list.retain (two other options related to HW acceleration were already enabled), and it might be faster, but I'm not sure about that.
prolepunk 8y ago
Is it still possible to boot from usb stick, blow Chrome OS away and install proper linux distro? Like on a normal computer.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Yes. You can also dual boot. This requires disabling verified boot, though.
mastrsushi 8y ago
All Chromebooks will also be Linux Container laptops going forward
maxhedrome 8y ago
Linux with all the benefits of Google tracking every time you poop!
newnewpdro 8y ago
Since when does running Linux in a VM make a machine a Linux machine? This same charade is being done by Microsoft with WSL2. In both cases it serves to usurp future Linux-on-metal users by giving them a convenient virtualized Linux environment, and we all suffer as a result while Linux's hardware support rots away. It will only be a matter of time before nobody can run Linux directly on consumer machines, and there will always be a proprietary hypervisor in control and your privacy and security compromised. Resist this and insist continuing to run Linux on bare metal, retain control over your general purpose computing.
OrgNet 8y ago
Are they going to port this to Android phones?
amelius 8y ago
Now smartphones too, please.
linuxftw 8y ago
Running linux in a vm is not running linux. It's still locked down hardware with proprietary drivers. Google can forget about my support. EDIT: s/container/vm/
jt2190 8y ago
Video of the talk: Linux for Chromebooks, (A.K.A Crostini): Secure Development presented by Sudha Broslawsky, Tom Buckley, and Dylan Reid at Google I/O 2019 https://youtu.be/pRlh8LX4kQI https://youtu.be/pRlh8LX4kQI Some technical details: * Container: Crostini (default is Debian 9) * Guest: Termina VM: LXD [1], Linux Kernel * Host: CrOS: crosvm, Linux Kernel Drivers are run in "minijails" to minimize exposure. Files are shared from container to OS via 9P [2]. Google is calling theirs "9S" Edit: I think this in-depth document may be up to date: "Running Custom Containers Under Chrome OS" https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/master/containers_and_vms.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/master/c... [1] from Canonical, see https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol)
fareesh 8y ago
If it's as advertised, it would be a pretty compelling purchase. How light is the typical Chromebook these days?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
TelmoMenezes 8y ago
I apologize in advance for going a bit off-topic, but I would like to point out the following: It is never necessary, and always inelegant, to write or say "going forward". Also, it stinks of corporate-speak. The English language already has a future tense, and this bit of redundancy makes sentences sound more contrived and clunky. Simple rule of style for writing: if you can remove something and keep the meaning intact, remove it. No regrets. "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication".
- crispinb 8y ago
  Oh yes thank you. I remember the first time I heard this cretinous locution used by a fellow countryman (rather than an American corporate type from whom you'd expect no better). I was gobsmacked and ignored the rest of what he said.
- freehunter 8y ago
  What would you use in its place? If you just said "All Chromebooks will also be Linux laptops", it's reasonable to expect that existing Chromebooks will be made Linux-ready as well. That's what the word "all" means, it means "all". But that's not the case. Only devices "launched this year" are guaranteed to be Linux-ready according to the article. "Going forward" means "from now on, but not including the past". Going forward is a much easier way of saying "from now on, but not including the past". I'm willing to accept that there is a better way, but I'd like to hear what that is. And it can't just be dropping the words "going forward", for the reason I've already explained.
  - TelmoMenezes 8y ago
    > If you just said "All Chromebooks will also be Linux laptops", it's reasonable to expect that existing Chromebooks will be made Linux-ready as well. Adding "going forward" does not remove this ambiguity. You just happen to know the correct answer. I still assumed that existing ones would also be Linux-ready, until I read your comment. > "Going forward" means "from now on, but not including the past". No, it just means "from now on". It has the exact same meaning as the future tense. Your comment confirms something I suspected: unnecessary linguistic mannerisms and corporate clichés are a symptom of confused thinking. Going forward, I will add this to my list of arguments. But not in my past discussions.
xmly 8y ago
It is not competing with windows anymore... It is a killer for macbook...
btreecat 8y ago
SJVN pushes out click-bait and relies on speculative wording to peddle his articles.
hestefisk 8y ago
I would like one of these as my daily web surfing machine ... if I were able to avoid having a Google account to boot the machine.
bigtunacan 8y ago
When I saw this topic I got all excited. Then I read the article and realized that it's dual running with Chrome OS and we are limited to certain versions of Linux without the same old headaches that have always been there. I honestly just want a cheap reliable laptop that I can install the Linux distro of my choice (usually Kali for doing pen-testing).
3xblah 8y ago
This is arguably a deceptive title. Why not something more clear such as, "All Chromebooks will now support containers." Chromebooks are already running a modified Gentoo Linux kernel. They are already "Linux" laptops. Chromebook users currently employ chroots to run non-Chromium userlands from Debian, Arch, etc. Ideally, they would like to run their own kernel, usually one they get in binary form from those public distributions such Debian, Arch, etc., but also kernels they compile themselves. It is possible (=good) but still a pain to install one's own kernel on a Chromebook. The Google Corporation could, but is not, making that any easier. Instead, what is happening here is that they are adding support for containers. Chromebook is still running Google's modified kernel. Pure coincidence I am sure, but looking at how Microsoft is marketing using the term "Linux" we see the same thing. They like to use the word "Linux", but the user is still running a proprietary kernel. In that case, it is the Windows kernel. Linux is a kernel. If you cannot compile it yourself and easily install it on your laptop, then whose "Linux laptop" is it, really? The issue is one of control.
- hedora 8y ago
  This is definitely a deceptive title. It implies Google is working to make sure third party Linux distros work reasonably, presumably by backporting their fixes and mandating OSS drivers, and easy dev mode support. From what I can tell, none of those things are true.
dorfsmay 8y ago
Will the Linux container be able to access Google drive? If so, any hope to see Google drive proper support for regular Linux?
navinsylvester 8y ago
I wanted to try chrome os a month or so back with android and linux support enabled but had hell of a time. Google seems to be very restrictive on where they get to run with all goodies. Google chromebook partners weren't even allowing experimental features to be tried on their platform so had to pick an Intel NUC to have the freedom. It all worked out fine with fyde os(chrome os flavor by a chinese company recently acquired by neverware) but with some tinkering to reset language to English and to disable fyde os sync/login with google. I have stopped using chrome due to privacy concerns and would never use chrome os with a google login. It was just an engineers itch to see how i can break free from restrictive hardware platform and get it working.
city41 8y ago
Does ChromeOS have any kind of window tiling solution? My dream is a Chromebook with all my Linux apps and a tiling window manager ala i3.
unnouinceput 8y ago
If you can't beat them, join them. Seems this is the move Google does on Linux. Well, "f" that, I want my Linux to be Linux and not some wolf in sheep clothes from Google. So no Chromebook for me...ever.
Addning 8y ago
202609624492

556 points by CrankyBear 8y ago

ufo 8y ago

One thing I never quite understood is why is it so hard to install a regular GNU/Linux distro on a chromebook. Why is it not possible to just put a liveUSB in the USB port and install it like you would on any personal computer?

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
Something in the specialized firmware/BIOS prevents it, I think? The only Chromebook I ever did this with was the original Chromebook Pixel, and flashing a regular BIOS onto it to let me treat it like any other computer required specifically opening the laptop up to remove the Write-Protect screw on the motherboard. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/86362 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Remove+the+Write+Protect+Screw/...
- klodolph 8y ago
  One of the things about Chromebooks that make them different is no BIOS altogether, right?
  - lima 8y ago
    They do have a (customized) UEFI BIOS based on CoreBoot.
    - klodolph 8y ago
      CoreBoot, BIOS, and UEFI are alternatives to each other. While you might have firmware that has various compatibility modes, my understanding is that CoreBoot does not provide a BIOS interface at all, and you need the SeaBIOS payload if you want BIOS from CoreBoot.
- lima 8y ago
  Yes - for security reasons. Chrome OS has a full verified boot chain, starting from the BIOS, like a smartphone. You cannot tamper with Chrome OS or access user data without password even with physical access to the device. None of this works with a 3rd party OS, so you have to disable the secured boot and possible re-flash a different BIOS (similar to unprotecting the bootloader on a phone).
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    >Chrome OS has a full verified boot chain, starting from the BIOS, like a smartphone. You cannot tamper with Chrome OS or access user data without password even with physical access to the device. [emphasis added] Ooooh interesting, I'd love to read more about this. Does this logic apply to iOS as well? (Can't evil maid an iPhone due to verified BIOS?) What about macOS?
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      iOS has a verified boot chain that you cannot disable, and newer Macs have this too but you can disable it.
  - Crinus 8y ago
    And like most "security reasons" they just take away control from the user and give it to whoever implements that security. Security against whom, i wonder. The narrative says, against malicious actors, but way more often than not, it ends up being security against the computer's owner.
    - wstrange 8y ago
      The procedure to get around the locked bootloader is documented. For the vast majority of users, a secure by default laptop is a win.
kevsprk 8y ago
Chromebooks use Coreboot firmware with a specialized payload called Depthcharge. This bootloader is customized for ChromiumOS and doesn't boot Linux/Windows. To install Linux/Windows on a Chromebook, you have to flash this firmware, usually replacing it with Coreboot with the Tianocore payload, which is a bootloader capable of booting other OS's. (MrChromeBox supplies this custom firmware for lots of devices)
- dingaling 8y ago
  But, why? What advantages does this offer Google beyond a 'normal' UEFI chain?
  - iamnothere 8y ago
    It's about achieving physical security against all but highly dedicated and competent attackers. There's a great overview here: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Yea I feel like this article is pretty misleading. It would be better if Google officially supported removing the entire ChromeOS and doing a full install of any Linux distro you want. This isn't really running Linux on your Chromebook. It's running a chroot of another distro under their Linux kernel/GUI layer. It's pretty different.
  - amelius 8y ago
    If this is true, then this is very disappointing.
  - seabrookmx 8y ago
    It's not even a chroot. That's how crouton works. Crostini, the google provided solution, actually runs all the "containers" under a KVM virtual machine. So it's even more abstracted.
bubblethink 8y ago
Two main reasons. Chromebooks ship seabios as a legacy payload, but they do not explicitly test or support it for any particular use case. Second, chromeos kernel deviates from mainline and it takes a lot of time for the changes to make their way to the mainline kernel.
stevewillows 8y ago
Like others have said, once you install the Mr Chromebox stuff, you can technically run any flavor of linux you like. The major issue you'll run into is support for wifi, the proper keyboard layout and audio. The GalliumOS team has built a custom kernel for a range of Chromebooks, though. I believe a lot of their work will be merged with the main kernel in the future, but its not there yet. I run Gallium3-Beta (Xubuntu 18.04) on an old Toshiba Chromebook 2, and it runs like a dream (considering the hardware) with around 8 - 10 hours on the battery.
jdietrich 8y ago
Security. By default, Chromebooks use a trusted boot path. The boot sequence starts in ROM and the firmware image is verified during boot. Booting unsigned firmware is possible but slightly inconvenient by design, to ensure that no user would do this accidentally or as a result of malicious actions. https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/verified-boot https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/...
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I don't see why this is specific to Chromebooks. On x86_64/UEFI, I can sign my Grub EFI loader, load my keys into secure book (delete the stock/microsoft ones), re-enable secure boot, password it and now I have a reasonable expectation that I am booting the OS I think I am. It'd be nice if Google opened up their actual bootloader so you could do the same with Chromebooks without needing 3rd party tools.

mfatica 8y ago

Between this and Windows shipping a linux kernel, 2019 really is shaping up to be the year of the linux desktop

outside1234 8y ago
Well Terminal at least.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- guelo 8y ago
  Chromebooks can run GUI linux apps.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Yep. Using the containers to run sublime text and factorio on a chromebook.
mrbonner 8y ago
"XXXX really is shaping up to be the year of the linux desktop" Damn, if I have a dollar for every time I hear that phrase :-) Joking aside, I think either MS initiative with WLS or ChromeOS with Linux container could be the solution to this abominable Linux desktop debacle.
- patrick5415 8y ago
  What debacle? I’ve been using Debian as my daily driver for the past 5 years without issue. I’ve run it a dell desktop, and laptops from Lenovo, toshiba and Sony and it’s always been a solid experience. My experience doing a fresh windows install has been far less pleasant and have had graphics cards that work properly in Linux, but not windows 10.
asveikau 8y ago
We finally get the year of Linux on the desktop, so long as your Linux is totally subservient to another kernel built and signed by a corporate behemoth. Sounds like progress.

cameronbrown 8y ago

This might be good news for Linux-on-the-desktop (indirectly). People have said for years the thing needed most is app support for high-end workloads like gaming and creative (think Adobe suite). I can't think of any use case beyond these, 90% of other stuff can be done in a web browser, and I'd say legacy software is the only exception. There's developer mindshare, but I'm not convinced there's much of a business case. I'd say the intersection of high-end Chromebooks and users who'd do gaming/video editing/etc.. on one, is asymptotically small.

hadsed 8y ago
What's the difference between a high end Chromebook and, say, a MacBook Air? The latter of which is used by some (though certainly not most) technical professionals.
- cameronbrown 8y ago
  macOS has the support and has had the support for decades for this stuff whereas there are very few high end Chromebooks (i.e. mostly Google Pixelbook) and none with high end software.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  macOS?
sneak 8y ago
Premiere/FCPX, After Effects, and Photoshop are not “legacy software” - but you covered those. There are also lots of CAD/CAM tools that do not, and likely will never, run in browser. I’d love a web-based version of IDA. We’re still a ways off; 90% there is still a half day of work each week that I simply can’t do on iOS/browser/ChromeOS. For that stuff I need a “real computer”, and will for the foreseeable future. It would be nice if iOS got a yellowbox, for example - running a desktop os x sandbox on my iPad Pro for the stuff that won’t ever switch would be really useful. ChromeOS adding Linux in a VM was a brilliant move.
- 8y ago

i_am_proteus 8y ago

> A Chromebook with all three operating systems running at once is also darn useful for an ordinary Jane or Joe. For example, I can edit images using Linux GIMP and write with LibreOffice Writer while looking at pictures using Android Pinterest and simultaneously check my Gmail in Chrome OS. It's all good. For example, I can edit images using Linux GIMP and write with LibreOffice Writer while looking at pictures using Firefox on Linux and simultaneously check my Gmail in Firefox on Linux. It's all good.

jklinger410 8y ago
ChromeOS adding almost zero value here. Faster Gapps? Kinda. The explorer is better for drive files, for sure. Can unlock with my Android phone. Cool, I guess? Can't think of any other reason to boot to ChromeOS.
- sempron64 8y ago
  ChromeOS power management is amazing, and makes 8-12 hours of battery life while using the browser a reality. Firefox saps the battery incredibly quickly, though I prefer to use it when that's not an issue. For me, the battery life is a huge technical value add, and is why I prefer to use linux via crouton on my acer c720 over installing it directly. I haven't tried the new Android app support but I think that will be huge as well for mobile-centric consumers.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  If you're mainly just going to be using a browser (which is true most of the time for me) I don't know why you would want to boot anything else. At the end of the day most operating systems I use are interchangeable for my workflow so unless you need a specific tool there's rarely a reason to use over over another.
  - jklinger410 8y ago
    >I don't know why you would want to boot anything else The privacy and convenience Firefox offers me over Chrome, to start. Containers, etc. Programs that run as programs but not Chrome Apps (Signal, Email, ETC)

addicted 8y ago

I haven’t really used Chromebooks, so this is a genuine question, and not meant to be rhetorical. In a 3 OS ChromeBook, what does ChromeOS bring to the table that Linux and Android don’t already cover?

sverige 8y ago
Surveillance by Google.
- adam12 8y ago
  I'd be ok if it just stopped at Google. edit: (government didn't have access to the data)
  - bhandziuk 8y ago
    I don't really get this attitude. I trust the government more than Google
    - thedaemon 8y ago
      Exactly, a private corporation has no public control/oversight board. Our government is run for and by the people. I wonder where this mindset was started.
      - bhandziuk 8y ago
        Agreed. I'm of the mindset that the government is me basically. Maybe I disagree with them sometimes but I have the ability to change their behavior. I have no control over private companies (even if they are publiclly traded)
    - muro 8y ago
      ... to do what? You can vote to change the government in most countries, you can't with Google. But Google won't leak your data and will delete it when you request it. What do you trust the government to do better? Or what do you think google will do with it? Edit: I understand you don't want Google to have your data, that is fully your choice. I'm just curious what risk you are concerned about.

Ajedi32 8y ago

Now all they need to do is integrate Wine and Proton, and Chrome OS will be able to easily run games and applications from 4 different operating systems.

dredmorbius 8y ago
What is Proton?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  It’s Steam’s Wine derivative: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton
theparanoid 8y ago
CrossOver has a beta Android version that I use to run IE, Adobe Reader, etc.

jammygit 8y ago

> Linux on Chromebook laptops is not a dual-boot operation. You're running both operating systems simultaneously. That means, for example, you can do things like clicking on a document file via the Chrome OS file manager and open it with LibreOffice -- without even starting a Linux session. Disappointed they agent just really good Linux laptops where we can wipe chromeOS off of.

saagarjha 8y ago
You can do this if you want, and you can dual-boot them as well.

dontbenebby 8y ago

Why not just... run linux... instead of running linux in a VM on Chrome OS? (Or if you like having separate VMs for separate stuff, support Qubes?) This is cool and a step in the right direction but I'd still prefer to Just Run Linux

glenrivard 8y ago
Security for one.
0xCMP 8y ago
Security and peace of mind. The "full" Linux is sandboxed and more like an App than a full OS (think WSL). The ChromeOS part is already tightly locked down too. On things like the Pixelbook you have very strong hardware and firmware guarantees that you're running what you should be or at least have a verifiable way to fix that by re-flashing/wiping.
aeroevan 8y ago
You can (and I do), but it requires disabling the verified boot process that makes Cromebook security so nice.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  > You can (and I do), but it requires disabling the verified boot process that makes Cromebook security so nice. Thanks I did not consider this point. Being able to trust your device is important. I'd love to read more if you know of any resources - evil maids remain the chink in the armor for even the most privacy conscious :)
  - aeroevan 8y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, but https://mrchromebox.tech/ https://mrchromebox.tech/ has most of the information. That and /r/chrultrabook/ and maybe a few other subreddits.
    - 8y ago

petilon 8y ago

This breaks the security benefits of Chromebooks. One of the advantages of Chromebooks is that hackers can't persuade naive users to download and run binaries. Previously a company could issue Chromebooks to all employees and know that employees can't run arbitrary binaries on their Chromebooks.

esrauch 8y ago
Presumably they can still set that as a device policy.
glenrivard 8y ago
Does not break security because of how Google implemented. It is also why MS has copied for WSL 2.
0xCMP 8y ago
It's all sandboxed and I'm sure they can disable the feature being there to increase security
mav3rick 8y ago
It runs in a VM for precisely this reason. Look into the design docs and see how every piece is further locked down using minijail.
- rptr_87 7y ago
  Document links: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/security-overview https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/... https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/system-hardening https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/chromiumos-design-docs/...
carlosdp 8y ago
I don't think it does. Linux is run in an isolated VM and debian is run in a container exposed to the user. The only filesystem interactions between ChromeOS and Linux are via Fuse and can only be transferred between environments from the ChromeOS side.

ipsum2 8y ago

All Chromebooks and Chrometops are already Linux laptops. You can install Crouton (easy chroot) and have an Ubuntu or whatever your favorite distro is in <15 minutes.

carlosdp 8y ago
Sure, but now it's literally just a button click and it's in the same environment as ChromeOS, no need to reboot to switch between.
- bduerst 8y ago
  Also native file sharing between the linux containers and ChromeOS.
chrisdfrey 8y ago
You have to enable developer mode to run crouton; you don't have to do that to run Linux apps. Unfortunately I couldn't get crouton to work on a chromebook I bought recently; after switching into a chroot the screen would freeze. I think the issue might be that my chromebook has an AMD APU and an older kernel.
jasonvorhe 8y ago
At the expense of security. You're also at risk of wiping your hard drive by accident whenever you hit the wrong during bootup. Recommending Developer Mode is never a good idea.

beat 8y ago

It's been working on older Chromebooks, too. I have a crappy three year old ARM-based Samsung that has followed along with the OS upgrades, as Chromebooks do. I now do a fair bit of development in its terminal (and more by ssh into a DigitalOcean VM). I often think of getting a more muscular Intel-based Chromebook as a general-purpose development box.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

kickingvegas 8y ago

X11 is never going to die.

cbolton 8y ago
This is implemented using Wayland, not X11. I just checked on my Chromebook, GTK+ apps use Wayland by default, Qt5 apps use X11 by default (through Xwayland) and look ugly when told to use Wayland. I guess X11 is going to stay as a compatibility layer, but this won't help it stay to the front.

carlosdp 8y ago

I think a lot of people underestimate how cool this actually is. I use a Pixelbook now as a main dev device (used to use a Mac like everyone else in the valley). With Linux in ChromeOS, this thing now runs basically 3 OSs (Chrome/Web PWAs, Android, Linux) in one environment. What this means is that I open my app drawer, and I see app icons I can launch. I don't know or care what actual OS those apps are running on! It could be a PWA or an android app or a linux app and it works and runs the same as any of the other apps. All without compromising on the security isolation benefits of ChromeOS.

millstone 8y ago
Do you actually not know what OS those apps are running on? Aren't there extremely stark and obvious differences between the three classes of apps?
- groovybits 8y ago
  Yes, you know what OS its running. To install a Linux application, you explicitly have to open the Linux container command line (which is Debian Stretch) and run the install commands. Ex: If I run 'apt install firefox', Firefox will be installed in the Linux container, but will be available to run from the ChromeOS app menu. Edit: Also, currently you need to explicitly go in the ChromeOS settings to download and install the Linux container. I'm not sure if this will change or not, but it is not currently included by default.
- wffurr 8y ago
  Sometimes only if you look for small details. The ChromeOS launcher mixes Chrome Apps, bookmarks, PWAs, and Android apps with only a small badge to differentiate if you have multiple of the same app (e.g. Keep Chrome app and Keep for Android).
  - millstone 8y ago
    But once they're running, don't they look and behave very differently? The last time I tried Android Firefox on ChromeOS, it had to quit to resize its window.

chrisdfrey 8y ago

One advantaage to dual booting is you can get hardware acceleration, which you don't currently get with Linux apps in ChromeOS (though they are working on it). Another is that most chromebooks have 4gb of ram which isn't much for running a VM on top of an OS.

lima 8y ago
They're working on it, though.
ewoodrich 8y ago
Hardware acceleration is working fine on the Dev channel with a flag. Shouldn't be too long before it's on by default and available on stable.

bArray 8y ago

If I understand this correctly it's just running Debian in a VM/container? I quite like the Chromebook hardware but I don't want to run ChromeOS (and whatever data collection crap-ware they run), when can we just install any OS we want?

acolumb 8y ago
IIRC Chromium OS doesn't collect the data the way the closed-source Chrome OS does. It's a great OS for getting work done (on Gapps, of course.) Debian (and all other userspace-run operating systems) are in a container.
chrisdfrey 8y ago
You can boot from USB or other partitions on some chromebooks; see GalliumOS: https://galliumos.org/ https://galliumos.org/
nailer 8y ago
> Linux on Chromebook laptops is not a dual-boot operation. You're running both operating systems simultaneously. It's really vague. But yes sounds like a container with a seamless window manager via Wayland.

umvi 8y ago

My $150 (Acer) chromebook has lasted me 5 years (and counting) and is still just as fast as the day I bought it. My $1500 macbook pro that I bought at the same time got noticeably more sluggish over the years by comparison, and I've had to bring it in for repairs twice for hardware failures (once for hard drive cable, once for HDD itself) - I sold the MBP last year and bought a Lenovo. Truly amazing. With this change, I could probably even get rid of the Lenovo and just have a single Chromebook for all my needs since all I really used the MBP for was the unixy CLI.

rockostrich 8y ago
>once for hard drive cable, once for HDD itself Considering that the Acer Chromebook probably has flash memory, I don't see how this is a fair comparison. I have a 2012 Macbook Air and Macbook Pro that have had no issues. The Macbook Air is my general around the house laptop and the MBP is used as a Plex box. Still do everything I need them to do and the only issue is the battery life of the Macbook Air since it's gone through way too many charge cycles.
- umvi 8y ago
  So why is that Acer is able to afford an SSD in a $150 computer, but Apple can't afford an SSD in a $1500 computer? Heck, Apple still doesn't have SSDs in their latest gen (2019) iMacs...
  - rockostrich 8y ago
    The Acer is probably flash memory, not an SSD. The $1500 iMac has a "1 TB fusion drive" which is apparently a hybrid of flash memory and an HDD (and all iMacs have the option to be configured with an SSD). I have no idea why they don't have it by default. They probably have a bunch of data that shows that the main consumers of iMacs don't know the difference or don't care. I'm just pointing out that your comparison was not genuine because you compared a problem with a component on one laptop that the other doesn't have.
    - 8y ago

intrasight 8y ago

One less reason to consider a Mac :)

p1mrx 8y ago

There's a still a big catch: normally, when a computer "runs Linux", you can keep installing new Linux distros until the hardware dies, which could be decades in the future. Chromebooks reach "end of life" after a few (edit: ≤ 6.5) years, effectively becoming software-defined garbage: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366 You can install Linux on some Chromebooks, but it's often a lot of work to disable the "press Space to erase your operating system" prompt. It would be better if all EoL Chromebooks received an update to disable secure boot, because secure boot stops being secure when it boots you to an unpatchable OS.

DoctorOetker 8y ago
why not just a UEFI menu where you can implicitly authorize the private key by simply entering a public key of choice? 1024 bit = 128 bytes = 256 hexadecimal digits. Totally feasible to enter manually...
- derefr 8y ago
  Because that’s still something an MITM in your hardware logistics chain could do to keylog you, which is what the trusted-boot sequence is designed to prevent. It might make sense to have a the ability to enter a UEFI key that would disable the dangerous “press to erase” prompt, but I don’t think it would ever make sense to make such a modified machine boot completely silently and “out-of-the-box like” (unless you don’t believe they should have secure boot as a design goal in the first place.) Probably the most burning in a UEFI key would do is change the “this is a dev-mode laptop” warning to a “this is a customized deployment; if you were expecting a device direct from Google, you are being attacked!” warning.
- knodi123 8y ago
  > 128 bytes = 256 hexadecimal digits. Totally feasible to enter manually... This looks like a job for QR codes!
acolumb 8y ago
To be fair, there is a 15-minute mod (mrchromebox.tech) that allows for all Intel Chromebooks =<Kaby Lake to install an open UEFI that supports Windows, Linux and even Clover/MacOS in some cases.

sandworm101 8y ago

Incorrect title. A "linux latop" is a laptop running linux as its OS. These are chromebooks that allow the user to also run linux, but they are still chromebooks. Their definitive feature, the bit that cannot be removed, is that they run as chromebooks. Title should read "All Chromebooks will also run linux on demand". They aren't linux laptops.

muro 8y ago
GNU/Linux
jdietrich 8y ago
ChromeOS is a Linux distro. If you're going to be pedantic, the title should read "Chromebooks have always been Linux laptops, but now they also run a sandboxed version of Debian".
asveikau 8y ago
I agree the title misunderstands the concept. I think it's more like "we'll make it really easy for you to have a nice chroot". Replacing the kernel will still require hoops to jump through. It is a bit dishonest to call that "linux laptop" on equal footing with a conventional PC that allows you to trivially wipe the whole disk and replace it with your own kernel.

jancsika 8y ago

A Linux laptop that forces the user to log into Google in order to use their Linux laptop. Am I correct? I can't imagine I'm not since there's no way ChromeOS's security model would work otherwise.

iams- 8y ago
No. You're not correct. All chromebooks can be run in guest mode which requires no login at all. Google has a long-standing bounty on the security of guest-mode.
- jancsika 8y ago
  So we've redefined "Linux laptop" to mean a system that returns to the base Debian install any time I log out or reboot? On the other hand, Chromebooks are cheap. So it might be a fun exercise to post a script on github that installs my development environment packages.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

I want to make the leap from Mac to Linux, I'm fairly computer savvy and 'can handle' Linux, but I'm just wary of missing out on some things. Like some Adobe products. Can someone chime in on the viability of Chromebook/Linux as a replacement for not just dev, but common computing tasks as well as creative work? (Photoshop, After Effects, editing etc.)

theparanoid 8y ago
It's OK with CrossOver for Linux. I ended up just using Krita. If you're a heavy Adobe user Chromebooks are underpowered (except the Pixel).

fc_barnes 8y ago

Will someone please enable some magic sysrq functionality on machines with reduced keyboards? This is coming from a person who has had to open up his Chromebook and unplug the battery internally when it inevitably crapped itself from OOM and was nonresponsive to any key press.

jasonhansel 8y ago

Can we now say that open source OS kernels have, officially, beaten proprietary ones? Even Windows has a Linux compatibility layer. This would have been unimaginable 10 years ago, when Linux desktops were far from mainstream.

freehunter 8y ago
That heavily depends on the definition of "beaten", and also what "open source kernels" actually means in context. A compatibility layer means little, considering Linux has had a Windows compatibility layer far longer than vice versa. And does an open source kernel matter much when the userland is closed source and proprietary? Or when the apps are closed source and proprietary? Or when computing shifts to a closed source and proprietary Internet environment?

xiii1408 8y ago

This is great news! Chromebooks are dirt cheap and for the most part have amazing build quality and keyboards for the price point. I just can't stand the flimsy plastics and hinges of most "normal" laptops at that price. I used Arch Linux on a Toshiba Chromebook 2 as a primary laptop for about two years, but eventually moved away from it because my bootloader got un-blessed due to the battery zero'ing out, and I didn't want to deal with it. I guess Chromebooks are back on my radar!

toast0 8y ago
If you're not planning to run Chrome OS, I'd definitely recommend making the effort to flash a 3rd party bootrom from https://mrchromebox.tech/ https://mrchromebox.tech/ or the no longer updating https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download/ https://johnlewis.ie/custom-chromebook-firmware/rom-download... I had better luck with booting FreeBSD on an Acer C720; but I think Mr. Chromebox's bioses keep getting better and better.
- xiii1408 8y ago
  Thanks for the rec! I unfortunately decided to install RW_LEGACY years ago when I set it up. It's now in a weird state where it has SeaBIOS installed but legacy boot is disabled. From what I've read, I need to boot into a Chrome OS recovery to enable legacy boot, which should allow everything to work. But I haven't been able to find a simple Chrome OS recovery shell image for me to boot into, so I'm kind of stuck rn.
  - toast0 8y ago
    From this state, I would try a full Chrome OS recovery [1], which I believe will put the firmware back to stock (especially if write protect is disabled), and then start again with the 3rd party scripts. Alternatively, I think I've seen instructions [2] for reflashing the bios using a different device, but I haven't screwed things up that much yet :D [1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chromebook-recovery-utili/jndclpdbaamdhonoechobihbbiimdgai https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chromebook-recover... instructions here: https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1080595?hl=en https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1080595?hl=en [2] https://wiki.mrchromebox.tech/Unbricking https://wiki.mrchromebox.tech/Unbricking

wanderfowl 8y ago

One thing to remember is that as of a month or so ago, there are serious limitations on the functionality of Linux apps. For instance, accessing your Google Drive files with Linux isn't straightforwardly possible, and another big one for me being that Linux apps cannot record audio. Additionally, backing up the Linux partition wasn't straightforward and wasn't a part of the normal 'Powerwash it and it restores' backup element of ChromeOS. I tried to use this to reduce my dependence on a MBP, but found a number of these little gaps that just couldn't quite be filled. I'm hoping these get improved with time, but as of right now, it's promising, but not delivered.

andrewmutz 8y ago
It is rapidly improving. Relating to two of the items you mentioned: In just the last few months they added cloud backups for linux containers, and linux access for your google drive. I switched from the mac for my full-time machine a few months ago and have been blown away. It does two things really well and securely: web browsers and linux. These are the two things I need to do my job.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  Completely agree. I switched full time to a Pixelbook from Mac after getting frustrated with the new Macbooks (hate the touchbar, and a Macbook with a stuck key is basically an unusable computer). One more thing to add is that they just added the ability for Linux apps to output audio in the latest stable release, so don't think recording would be too far away, although that has greater security issues of course.

mattlondon 8y ago

I've been doing this for a little while on a cheapo chromebook. It works, but it is brutally slow and clunky (this is on a 2018 entry-level intel celeron n3350 + 4gb ram chromebook) to run something like firefox. It is usable, but you'll get frustrated fairly fast. Unfortunately the same can be said about the chromebook in general - have more than one browser tab open on a javascript heavy page (e.g. large google doc + gmail + calendar) and its really slow there too anyway so I guess I cant hope for much. I feel like web apps have got significantly more complex, while the compute in the entry level chromebooks has more or less stagnated over the past few years. Just doesn't feel like there is enough power to make things comfortable and seamless to use. I've used a couple of intel i5/i7 chromebooks and they've been lovely to use with snappy performance, but the price for that performance is approaching/exceeding that of a "real" laptop (sometimes wildly exceeding the price of a normal windows laptop, or even a mac for the case of Google's chromebooks) so it kinda defeats the point in my mind. I used to recommend chromebooks to all non-tech savvy people who asked me (parents, relatives, friends etc), now I hesitate to do so because the performance is just not there unless you really pay huge sums.

omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
The script heavy stuff in general is a pain in my experience. I have a 2995U + 4gb ram chromebook that just runs Arch, and gmail/drive/etc are crazy slow. Even scrolling through the newest stuff on thingiverse for an hour with however many loaded images is faster than some of google's pages/apps. On the plus side, Firefox seems to handle 50-100+ loaded tabs well as long as there isn't too much stuff going on with them.
- sosodev 8y ago
  What's your Arch setup? You might want to fiddle with some of the settings in Firefox to try and get more hardware acceleration.
  - omgwtfbyobbq 8y ago
    Thanks for the heads up! I enabled layout.display-list.retain (two other options related to HW acceleration were already enabled), and it might be faster, but I'm not sure about that.

prolepunk 8y ago

Is it still possible to boot from usb stick, blow Chrome OS away and install proper linux distro? Like on a normal computer.

saagarjha 8y ago
Yes. You can also dual boot. This requires disabling verified boot, though.

mastrsushi 8y ago

All Chromebooks will also be Linux Container laptops going forward

maxhedrome 8y ago

Linux with all the benefits of Google tracking every time you poop!

newnewpdro 8y ago

Since when does running Linux in a VM make a machine a Linux machine? This same charade is being done by Microsoft with WSL2. In both cases it serves to usurp future Linux-on-metal users by giving them a convenient virtualized Linux environment, and we all suffer as a result while Linux's hardware support rots away. It will only be a matter of time before nobody can run Linux directly on consumer machines, and there will always be a proprietary hypervisor in control and your privacy and security compromised. Resist this and insist continuing to run Linux on bare metal, retain control over your general purpose computing.

OrgNet 8y ago

Are they going to port this to Android phones?

amelius 8y ago

Now smartphones too, please.

linuxftw 8y ago

Running linux in a vm is not running linux. It's still locked down hardware with proprietary drivers. Google can forget about my support. EDIT: s/container/vm/

jt2190 8y ago

Video of the talk: Linux for Chromebooks, (A.K.A Crostini): Secure Development presented by Sudha Broslawsky, Tom Buckley, and Dylan Reid at Google I/O 2019 https://youtu.be/pRlh8LX4kQI https://youtu.be/pRlh8LX4kQI Some technical details: * Container: Crostini (default is Debian 9) * Guest: Termina VM: LXD [1], Linux Kernel * Host: CrOS: crosvm, Linux Kernel Drivers are run in "minijails" to minimize exposure. Files are shared from container to OS via 9P [2]. Google is calling theirs "9S" Edit: I think this in-depth document may be up to date: "Running Custom Containers Under Chrome OS" https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/master/containers_and_vms.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/master/c... [1] from Canonical, see https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ https://linuxcontainers.org/lxd/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol)

fareesh 8y ago

If it's as advertised, it would be a pretty compelling purchase. How light is the typical Chromebook these days?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

TelmoMenezes 8y ago

I apologize in advance for going a bit off-topic, but I would like to point out the following: It is never necessary, and always inelegant, to write or say "going forward". Also, it stinks of corporate-speak. The English language already has a future tense, and this bit of redundancy makes sentences sound more contrived and clunky. Simple rule of style for writing: if you can remove something and keep the meaning intact, remove it. No regrets. "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication".

crispinb 8y ago
Oh yes thank you. I remember the first time I heard this cretinous locution used by a fellow countryman (rather than an American corporate type from whom you'd expect no better). I was gobsmacked and ignored the rest of what he said.
freehunter 8y ago
What would you use in its place? If you just said "All Chromebooks will also be Linux laptops", it's reasonable to expect that existing Chromebooks will be made Linux-ready as well. That's what the word "all" means, it means "all". But that's not the case. Only devices "launched this year" are guaranteed to be Linux-ready according to the article. "Going forward" means "from now on, but not including the past". Going forward is a much easier way of saying "from now on, but not including the past". I'm willing to accept that there is a better way, but I'd like to hear what that is. And it can't just be dropping the words "going forward", for the reason I've already explained.
- TelmoMenezes 8y ago
  > If you just said "All Chromebooks will also be Linux laptops", it's reasonable to expect that existing Chromebooks will be made Linux-ready as well. Adding "going forward" does not remove this ambiguity. You just happen to know the correct answer. I still assumed that existing ones would also be Linux-ready, until I read your comment. > "Going forward" means "from now on, but not including the past". No, it just means "from now on". It has the exact same meaning as the future tense. Your comment confirms something I suspected: unnecessary linguistic mannerisms and corporate clichés are a symptom of confused thinking. Going forward, I will add this to my list of arguments. But not in my past discussions.

xmly 8y ago

It is not competing with windows anymore... It is a killer for macbook...

btreecat 8y ago

SJVN pushes out click-bait and relies on speculative wording to peddle his articles.

hestefisk 8y ago

I would like one of these as my daily web surfing machine ... if I were able to avoid having a Google account to boot the machine.

bigtunacan 8y ago

When I saw this topic I got all excited. Then I read the article and realized that it's dual running with Chrome OS and we are limited to certain versions of Linux without the same old headaches that have always been there. I honestly just want a cheap reliable laptop that I can install the Linux distro of my choice (usually Kali for doing pen-testing).

3xblah 8y ago

This is arguably a deceptive title. Why not something more clear such as, "All Chromebooks will now support containers." Chromebooks are already running a modified Gentoo Linux kernel. They are already "Linux" laptops. Chromebook users currently employ chroots to run non-Chromium userlands from Debian, Arch, etc. Ideally, they would like to run their own kernel, usually one they get in binary form from those public distributions such Debian, Arch, etc., but also kernels they compile themselves. It is possible (=good) but still a pain to install one's own kernel on a Chromebook. The Google Corporation could, but is not, making that any easier. Instead, what is happening here is that they are adding support for containers. Chromebook is still running Google's modified kernel. Pure coincidence I am sure, but looking at how Microsoft is marketing using the term "Linux" we see the same thing. They like to use the word "Linux", but the user is still running a proprietary kernel. In that case, it is the Windows kernel. Linux is a kernel. If you cannot compile it yourself and easily install it on your laptop, then whose "Linux laptop" is it, really? The issue is one of control.

hedora 8y ago
This is definitely a deceptive title. It implies Google is working to make sure third party Linux distros work reasonably, presumably by backporting their fixes and mandating OSS drivers, and easy dev mode support. From what I can tell, none of those things are true.

dorfsmay 8y ago

Will the Linux container be able to access Google drive? If so, any hope to see Google drive proper support for regular Linux?

navinsylvester 8y ago

I wanted to try chrome os a month or so back with android and linux support enabled but had hell of a time. Google seems to be very restrictive on where they get to run with all goodies. Google chromebook partners weren't even allowing experimental features to be tried on their platform so had to pick an Intel NUC to have the freedom. It all worked out fine with fyde os(chrome os flavor by a chinese company recently acquired by neverware) but with some tinkering to reset language to English and to disable fyde os sync/login with google. I have stopped using chrome due to privacy concerns and would never use chrome os with a google login. It was just an engineers itch to see how i can break free from restrictive hardware platform and get it working.

city41 8y ago

Does ChromeOS have any kind of window tiling solution? My dream is a Chromebook with all my Linux apps and a tiling window manager ala i3.

unnouinceput 8y ago

If you can't beat them, join them. Seems this is the move Google does on Linux. Well, "f" that, I want my Linux to be Linux and not some wolf in sheep clothes from Google. So no Chromebook for me...ever.

Addning 8y ago

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