31 ms·

Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how we throw things away

541 points by adrian_mrd 8y ago

HillaryBriss 8y ago
>"They built those things to last, last a lifetime," Hustwit says. "And if they did break, they built them to be repaired very easily." You know. Kind of like a MacBook.
- on_and_off 8y ago
  I miss the old macbookpros (and by old I mean 2011 I think ? ) You could replace the battery, RAM, hard drive, optical drive and maybe even CPU (I haven't tried that last one) yourself, with just a screwdriver.
  - nanomonkey 8y ago
    I'm writing this on a 2008 MacBook which I've replaced the HD and optical drive with ssd, upgraded the RAM and repeatedly replaced battery. If I could update the CPU and screen I would.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      If you can update the screen... or at least replace it if it breaks. IIRC there are 3rd party screens for it.
      - nanomonkey 8y ago
        Yes, replacements can be had. What I would really like is an upgrade...ie a 1080p screen over the current 1280x800, and perhaps a faster CPU and motherboard. The battery chemistry also leaves something to be desired. I saw a huge difference upgrading the HD. Enough so, that it's still a usable machine that I tend to gravitate towards more than my 13" Dell XPS with 4k screen.
  - amelius 8y ago
    I prefer PCs for not locking software to the platform. I can still run Linux on my 386.
  - phreeza 8y ago
    Well I suppose there is not much stopping you from still using one of those, right? Except the technology is quite outdated now, so in a way it is a bit moot how maintainable the hardware is, beyond a certain point. Unless they went an extra step, and made things like the processor or even the motherboard upgradeable.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  I don't have much experience with MacBooks, but ThinkPads (at least certain lines) are very much of this nature. I have a 2008 ThinkPad which is still usable and in great condition (I've upgraded various things on it, which the design also makes relatively easy).
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    Where / how do you upgrade?
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      At home. The ThinkPads come with comprehensive manuals and one can easily (by undoing one screw) change the drive, (by undoing a couple of screws) upgrade memory, (by undoing a few screws) replace the screen, (by undoing a few more screws) replace the keyboard and/or access the motherboard.
      - goldcd 8y ago
        I've not taken a thinkpad apart for a long time - but my memory of upgrading them is a great one. Yes, they have the technical manuals easily available - but they had the information embedded in their molds for the parts. e.g. If you wanted to 'upgrade the memory' you just removed every screw that had a 'memory logo' next to the screw and then wiggled stuff to see what moved. Eventually you'd see a nice empty memory slot.
        _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
        Yes, that's true. I think the main thing I actually referred to the manual for was the screen (esp. on the X200 where it was a bit trickier; later models are easier). The other bits are more or less intuitive, aided by the icons as you point out.
      - dredmorbius 8y ago
        Thanks. I've done basics (mem, HDD/SSD), not keyboard or display.
- ozaark 8y ago
  /s? Apple are one of the worst offenders
- addicted 8y ago
  I agree regarding the original MBP and MacBooks. RAM and batteries were easily replaceable. The keyboard, hard disk and several other components were replaceable with a little bit of effort. I don’t believe any of that is true of Apples current lineup.
  - snazz 8y ago
    This [edit for clarity: the GP] appears to be intended to be sarcastic. You’re right, but you may have missed the sarcasm, which we know transmits poorly over text-based mediums.
    - HillaryBriss 8y ago
      you're right. thanks. and yet, it's interesting/educational to me that the ambiguity elicited differing responses depending upon the model year of the MBP. the things used to be maintainable! but, nowadays, when a single key starts malfunctioning, it's a pretty significant repair job, a big problem.
- umvi 8y ago
  I bought a MacBook Pro and a Chromebook 5 years ago. Guess which one I've had to replace the hard drive twice and has slowly become unusable over the course of several OS upgrades and which is just as good as the day I bought it? Chromebook is still ticking, MacBook I gave away. Pretty shameful for being 10x the price of the chromebook
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  So something basic like changing the battery, or adding new memory/drives ... the YouTube repairers are lying when they say you have to entirely dismantle, unglue, fight Apple's customs interventions and suing of parts suppliers?? [Sorry, I just realised this can only be sarcasm.]
RickJWagner 8y ago
Wow, he looks a lot like Chevy Chase. I like his message, though. We should throw away a lot less stuff. - Saves natural resources - Reduces landfills - Provides jobs (the repair technicians) Seems like a good future trend.
- galfarragem 8y ago
  ... And reduces corporations profits. They want to sell you the same product cyclically, not once in your lifetime. Corporations don't give a f*ck about saving resources, reducing waste or providing jobs to repair technicians unless it hurts them economically or they take a cut somewhere in the process. That's the 'bad part' of capitalism. Anyway I agree with you. It's a pity that open source hardware is still in the infancy. Software shows us that open source can be unbeatable and even corporations have to comply if they want to survive.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Why can’t they run the repair shops? Alternatively they can run things like the old ATT and lease better built but more expensive items?
    - jstarfish 8y ago
      They do run the repair shops. They charge exorbitant rates for service.
    - galfarragem 8y ago
      As a last resort they can - if the market forces them to - but I suspect that is less profitable than selling new stuff cyclically.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    Even if they did care they couldn't do much about it because they would lose out to the competition that doesn't care. The only way we are going to get beyond this is to make sure they have to pay for their externalities.
panzerklein 8y ago
Article by Buffy Gorrilla, huh? I like it.
akras14 8y ago
Amen
krm01 8y ago
Rams has contributed valuable lessons to the design community. You can read more about how his work influenced Apple products here: https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-inspired-apples-iconic-designs-gallery/ https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-ins... His utopian perspective only works if a designer of his caliber is balanced with a visionary CEO. He had a chance to work with such a CEO at Braun. The last time we had such a magic duo was with Steve Jobs & Jony Ive.
- devmunchies 8y ago
  the same Ive who prided himself in designing the PoS macbook keyboard. I remember when they were first launching that new keyboard there was a video of him touting its revolutionary new design. He is a good designer but needs to prioritize reliability/longevity a bit more.
  - Maro 8y ago
    Maybe that time they made a mistake?
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      I don't think there is any doubt about the. The problem is they seem unable to step back from it.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    That's the point, you need a counter weight on the product management side. Jobs/Ive also made marvels like the 12inch powerbook or the iPhone 3GS or the swivel-LCD iMac. Not all was great but there was a high number of winners coming out of that duo. The only thing since then that's on par are the Airpods IMO.
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      The swivel-LCD iMac was terrible, it was almost impossible to service or adjust and didn't hold up for very long. I had to wedge the arm to keep mine upright.
mips_avatar 8y ago
He has also designed some fantastic disposable toothbrushes and razors.
butterfi 8y ago
I've started to wonder if designing things to last is truly the best option. Sometimes well built things out live their usefulness and then you have this well built paper weight. Braun razors are a good example. I have one that still works, but I stopped using it after several years. No one wants a used razor, so what happens to it? I think we need to stop trying to make things a permanent as we can and start thinking more about sustainability.
- blt 8y ago
  It's kind of funny in the reddit "Buy it for life" community where people are talking about, like, socks... the thing you grind your whole body weight onto 5,000 times per day. I'm not going to start buying expensive uncomfortably thick socks just so I can be happy about how long they last.
  - kylehotchkiss 8y ago
    Buy Darn Tough socks! If they get holes, you mail them back to Vermont and they mail you back new socks.
    - doubleunplussed 8y ago
      You're kind of buying a sock subscription at that point.
    - hinkley 8y ago
      What’s the carbon footprint of sending them back and forth? My heavy socks last forever because I only wear them when I put on my boots, which is maybe twenty days a year. Eventually the moths will get them.
    - eaandkw 8y ago
      I second Darn Tough socks. I retired from the USMC and I will pay what ever they are asking for the socks. It really does make a difference on a 15 to 20 mile hike. Ever since I was issued my first pair I never went back and they are worth every bit of the $25 dollars per pair. I never got blisters since wearing them.
herf 8y ago
Hustwit's documentary is quite wonderful. https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm
starky 8y ago
This is something that bothers me as well, though my reasons are slightly different. It feels that every new product that is released now is purely designed to drive new sales for some flashy feature that actually make the product worse and less reliable. I'm just not interested in things that have IoT/"smart" features added on, I want something high quality that works reliably and well because it is designed thoughtfully. I realize that these desires simply go against the shareholder mindset that a corporation must be constantly growing and releasing new products in order to be viable. So we aren't likely to see any shift anytime soon.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  Reading the article the thought occurred to me that "disposable" is probably more a factor fo cost + materials (and obviously related). By that I mean, if a thing is cheap and "plasticy" it really doesn't matter how beautifully designed it is — it will feel throwaway. Make the thing from aluminum, glass, magnesium, steel ... the price goes up (the durability goes up) but the value (both perceived and monetary of course) go up as well. While Apple (as an example) try to tempt their customers each year with something new and new-featured, I'm not actually aware of people tossing out their old iPhones (or MacBooks for that matter) even if they do in fact spring for the latest. Instead they seem to get handed down or repurposed (media center, man-cave, etc.). I don't feel the same way about my $150 plastic Chromebook.
  - andai 8y ago
    The retina MacBook Pro is by far my favorite machine. I remember for many weeks, being delighted every time I saw it, which isn't an experience I've had with any other kind of laptop. I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn't get the hang of iOS. The physical device itself, though, was great, not just visually, but the tactile experience is spot on. I wish I lived in a world where Apple made Android phones.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn't get the hang of iOS. Huh? It's a much more designed and coherent experience than Android.
JKCalhoun 8y ago
Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive. Fun read.
- ddalex 8y ago
  I can't figure out if you're referring to yourself or Mr Rams as cosmopolitan
  - will_pseudonym 8y ago
    > Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive. Fun read. Replying in case others may benefit from the brief explanation. JKCalhoun is describing the degree to which he, JKCalhoun, is cosmopolitan--based on the amount of knowledge he had about Rams. It's missing an implicit "I'm". The sentences can be fully formed as this: "I'm just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive."
    - JKCalhoun 8y ago
      Yes, thank you. ;-)
huffmsa 8y ago
Well I know what I'm watching tonight.
Ericson2314 8y ago
Better end capitalism if you don't want planned obselessence. Rams shouldn't give himself a hard time over that.
- omosubi 8y ago
  Capitalism itself isn't the problem it's our refusal to change market forces to force companies and individuals to pay for the disposal of the stuff when we no longer have a use for it. This could easily be done if we had the political will power. all the solutions to this exist currently we just aren't taking advantage of them.
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    If I were dictator the dump would charge the manufacturer full sales price to dispose of a major appliance that is less than five years old.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Capitalism itself isn't the problem it's our refusal to change market forces to force companies and individuals to pay for the disposal of the stuff when we no longer have a use for it. The absence of government intervention in to “change market forces” beyond it's intervention to establish the basic property model that characterizes capitalism is the central feature of capitalism as an economic system. It's true that modern “capitalist” states all intervene in this way to a significant extent, but that's because capitalism in its pure form was abandoned, almost universally, in the early-to-mid-20th century in favor of mixed economies in developed countries. But the philosophy of capitalism is still a potent force, and resists further intervention and motivates rollbacks of existing interventions.
    - vlehto 8y ago
      The problem with arguing about capitalism is that it has multiple overlapping definitions. You have one definition that any system that has private trade is capitalist. One definition that says any system that has any market intervention is not capitalist. One that claims any system that has private ownership of means of production is capitalist. One where you are not capitalist if you claim to be communist (looking at you China). And then the ones which include also "industrial production" in the equation in one form or another. Whatever you mean by "industrial". I don't know about defenders of current western way of life, but the opponents typically don't declare their definitions of capitalism in beforehand. So it's incredibly unlikely to have any solid argument against them.
nimbius 8y ago
speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, this type of disposable consumerism is absolutely rampant in luxury vehicles. im not sure if its designed to be an expression of luxury, or if the designers just dont care, but it shows in the quality of the final product that most of these icons of performance and opulence are due for major service every few thousand miles. plastic oil filter modules: absolute garbage but Chrysler fell in love with them during the Daimler years and now they show up in basically everything built off the E series chassis. BMW also use them, and they hold up to thermal stress very poorly. can not be recycled in the US like metal filters and have to be shipped, if you want, to germany. plastic water pumps/plastic cooling systems: notoriously BMW, but also show up on Maserati so im told. they leak like a sieve and youll replace a major part of the system every 5k miles. cannot be recycled. cheap hydraulics: im talking about that paddle shift dual clutch weirdness that shows up in high-performance mercedes 6 liter v8 engines with the double turbos. You build an engine that costs 3/4 of the vehicle value and you cheap out at the last minute with pot-steel roller bearings? in an engine that delivers north of 500 horsepower? tapered rollers or even high nickel needle bearings would keep the hydraulics running for years, but the hydraulic actuation assembly for the paddle shift stuff is an absolute dumpster fire. you cant disassemble the actuator, or service the bearings. the whole thing gets thrown out and replaced. death by cad: this is more 'right to repair' but engines that were designed in a laboratory by a grad student from Malaysia who was told to 'make it work.' to service the turbo on some lexus F sports, you must disassembly the entire front of the car. headlights have to come off, the radiator and forward steering linkage too. its a $400 part, but thats $2300 in labor.
- hopler 8y ago
  What does Malaysia have to so with this?
  - mcormier 8y ago
    He’s just implying cheap subcontracted labour from a foreign country where labour rates are lower.
    - 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rdlecler1 8y ago
Today's product improvements happen faster today and many of the improvements are driven by software not just hardware. I get a new iPhone every two years because it is significantly better than the last generation: faster, longer battery life, bigger more vivid screen. Also newer cars are increasingly safer than older cars. And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for quality today when it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners?
- jstarfish 8y ago
  > And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for quality today when it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners? Because you're already eating the bulk of the depreciation on it anyway? You pay for quality today because you intend to still be using and maintaining it in 20 years. Buying new makes no sense at all when "next owners" are even a factor in the equation. You might as well just lease.
- shoo 8y ago
  the main objection I can think of is environmental. if the costs of building & shipping & disposing of the product are properly internalised into the cost of the product, then I think your attitude is fine. But I bet the costs won't be properly internalised, at least in the case of consumer electronics, someone else will pay the costs to dispose of the thing (i.e. it won't be disposed of correctly in a way that minimises harm, as doing that would cost more than not), and pay the cost in terms of externalities like pollution involved in the contruction
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
radicaldreamer 8y ago
Patagonia embodies these principles far more than Apple
sigi45 8y ago
I watched a video today or something where you can see human beings testing a kids toy. You know that those humans spend there life building or testing plastic toys for kids in europe etc. which will play with it for a short time and wouldn't care for the world if that toy would be something else. I feel sometimes bad hiring someone to do something i can do. I do know that a professional painter can paint my walls better and quicker than i can and thats probably okay but it still feels weird. I also visited a 1 Dollar Store in US because we were looking for some tweezers and found them there. Those have been so bad, they couldn't hold onto anything. I also saw a cable adapter thingy which was 100% not functional as i was very aware of both plugs.This broken shit made it half around the world to be thrown away by me. We should stop producing shit just because we can.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  I have a pair of tweezers I bought from an electronic supply house 30 years ago for what $10. They are hard nickel tool steel. Sharp as ever. The ones we buy at work last about 6 months before the tips get ruined. Why because it's cheaper to make them out of soft stainless. And there is no competition they are all crap.
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    And that's because people have gotten used to be able to buy a new one when the old one is crap - actually, most people never get to that point, they just lose them in the piles of stuff they have. Few people use tweezers that much.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Similarly it is basically impossible to buy good files today, because they're all somewhat dull and don't last. I have German, French and Swiss made files from well over forty years ago, which I received in their original wax paper packaging. They are much sharper now and seem to last longer than what I can buy new from the same German manufacturer today. It is like someone forgot how to make proper file steel. Real shame. You'd maybe expect them to get a little bit better, for them to last longer, because more modern steels and better process controls for heat treating etc. may be used, but evidently this isn't the case.
rebuilder 8y ago
I've wanted to buy durable items - far from luxury cars, things like lawnmowers and chainsaws etc. What I've realized is that durability seems to come from having simple mechanisms that are relatively easy to service and maintain. But that implies that you have to maintain the machines. You have to clean your chainsaw regularly, you need to know how to adjust the carburetor, you need to take the time to sharpen the blades etc. For the luxury market, that probably means the customer pays someone to do that work. Maybe it's just cheaper to put in disposable parts that are replaced, since labour costs are pretty high these days.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  The buyers of these cars only keep them for three years. That's their design life. Huffy bikes were only ridden for 50 cumulative miles over their lifetime and were designed for just that.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    The buyers of these cars only keep them for three years The OP noted that these cars need major service after just a few thousand miles. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect to drive less than 5,000 miles in three years.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      The consumers nearly always lease, the service is insured via the warranty and the customer gets a loaner.
    - TylerE 8y ago
      By "major service" he means an oil change - and most of the Euro manufactures are running full synthetic with change intervals of 10,000 miles or longer, so it';s basically a once a year thing for most owners.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - 8y ago
skookumchuck 8y ago
Where can I view the documentary Rams?
- sbr464 8y ago
  https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm They have a Vimeo Apple TV app, or download the mp4 etc when purchased there
snazz 8y ago
I love my Nikon D80, a fairly mid-range to high-end DSLR from 2006. It might be challenging to repair (since it is full of a ton of complex and tiny mechanical and electronic components), but it has lasted me over a decade and still competes favorably with smartphone cameras (despite the huge advances in sensors [the D80 has a CCD] and processing since then). I haven’t needed to repair it and haven’t really considered replacing it for the last 12 (going on 13) years. It wasn’t too cheap, but it was obviously meant to last. Nikon has since made cheaper, junkier consumer cameras (basically anything without the sub-command/aperture dial, which is under the shutter button), but the slightly higher-end models have stayed very similarly long-lasting and well-designed as my old D80. The question is: will any smartphone ever begin to compete with that kind of longevity?
- steelframe 8y ago
  To that point, I'm linking here are a couple of images I took with my Pixel 2 phone while I was on vacation last year. The post-processing technology in the modern cell phone effectively compensates for intrinsic shortcomings in things like the tiny and shallow lens. It takes multiple images at different exposures, detects edges/objects, and automatically composes the images to deal with backlight: https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg It simulates portrait photography by detecting which objects are close and which are further away, applying various levels of blur to several composed layers: https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg In hindsight, I have no regrets using my phone rather than dragging along my DSLR on my vacation, particularly because I'm one of those ultralight "take only a 19-liter backpack" types. I just don't see the marginal benefit of whatever that bulky 15-year-old technology has over today's ML-enhanced technology. But I guess your point was about longevity. For me, my phone serves many more functions than just photography, and so I feel that I get so much more out of it than just that one thing. In that sense, it's hard for me to tease apart the camera from the rest of what the phone does when I make the decision to upgrade it. I suppose I can give some signal there, in that I haven't found any reason to replace my Pixel 2 yet.
  - GordonS 8y ago
    I used to take a DSLR everywhere when I travelled, but the bulk and weight was always a PITA. The quality of photos a high-end smartphone takes nowadays is really quite incredible, especially given the small lens and sensor. And the convenience of being able to carry all this photographic power in your pocket is even more incredible. It was with some sadness that I recently sold my trusty Canon 450D and Sigma long-range lens - my wife and I travelled the world with that kit, so it held sentimental value beyond the intrinsic. It did me proud for almost 10 years, and I still got a decent percentage of the original purchase price on eBay.
electrichead 8y ago
Are there examples of products made today that have this ethos of lasting for a lifetime? As a side note on cars, what are some cars that would last a long time and are made of parts that are serviceable?
caymanjim 8y ago
I'm not sure if I completely buy the premise of this. We certainly have a lot of cheap, disposable things in our lives, but we also have plenty of durable items as well. Most of the things that I own that are more durable are low-tech, like kitchen items. Yes, you can buy cheap, semi-disposable frying pans, and budget appliances, but that's always been the case, even back in Rams's day. I've owned and used the same cast iron pans, ceramic coffee mugs, drinking glasses, silverware, etc. for in some cases decades. They work and there's no reason to upgrade them. I've got tools that I've been using for decades. Some were inherited from my father. Some I purchased myself. Manual tools can last nearly forever. Plenty of power tools last decades (decent brand drills, circular saws, etc). This hasn't changed. You can also buy cheap, poorly-built versions of many of these things, if you either can't afford or don't need better quality. Again, this has always been the case, even 50 years ago. There's a lot more stuff now, and a lot more cheap stuff to be sure. This creates a disposable culture, but it's not that high-quality, repairable items have disappeared completely; it's just that now people who don't need or want them have more cheap alternatives to choose from. Electronics are an exception to this. Computers and phones in particular are semi-disposable, over a few years. This isn't because they're shoddily-built and unrepairable, it's because they become obsolete. I still have 15-year-old computers that work fine, and have some components that are 20+ years old. They're sturdy, they function just as well as when they were made, but they're obsolete. My primary gaming desktop is nearly 10 years old, though, and it's still going strong. I've upgraded the video card and storage a few times, but other than that, it's almost all original 2011 equipment, and it still plays all modern games. That's totally repairable and self-serviceable. I've heard people bemoan modern quality and disposability before, but I really don't see it as the modern plague it's described as. Plenty of junk was manufactured 75 years ago, but the things that have survived were the items that were built well and had timeless value. I bet Rams has thrown out his old black & white TV, and that photo of him sitting on his cheap, disposable plastic patio furniture shows that he's prone to the same price-vs-quality decisions as the rest of us.
- PorterDuff 8y ago
  To me, a fascinating angle is when the electronics obsolescence curve runs into the mechanical one. Cars are filled with that kind of thing, but two more interesting ones are products like sewing machines and power tools. Both used to be overdesigned, now they have have additional features and underdesign enabled by built-in microcontrollers. In drills, for instance, it'll back off on the power where an earlier model needed to be able to handle an animal wielding it.
rglover 8y ago
If you haven't, make sure to watch Gary Hustwit's doc on Dieter. Really great.
ekianjo 8y ago
The relationship with Apple products only stop at their look: Apple products were never meant to be repaired.
mikekchar 8y ago
Not completely related, but... I always wanted to try an experiment: Don't buy any dishes. Adapt whatever packaging that you buy your food with to use as dishes. So a yogurt container becomes a bowl. The styrofoam trays that have meat on them become a plate (don't forget to disinfect it first...) Plastic drink bottles become cups (you can make a surprisingly nice wine bottle out of the top of a soda bottle). I wonder how long it would take you to kit yourself out with a complete set of dishes... I often think that even as late as 20 years ago, you could go to your local tofu maker here in Japan with a container and they would put tofu in it for you[0]. If you imagine that you would only need 1 tofu container for your whole life, you could afford to have a really nice tofu container. Out of stubbornness (and the fact that I live in a country that is hot most of the time), I wash all of my containers before I throw them out. I get sad, though, that I have all this stuff which is perfectly usable, but if I'm honest I don't want to use because it is crappy. I want that lovely $100 tofu container rather than the $0.00001 plastic wrapping. I want to look at and touch and enjoy nice stuff every day. It seems to me that it's kind of what it's like to be super rich, where you never see the garbage -- everything is repackaged into lovely containers for you. Of course, in reality, the Andy Warhol-esq lifestyle we live, where everything is commoditised and you can't buy a $10,000 bottle of Coke that tastes different from a $1 bottle of coke is built upon the efficiencies of being able to dispose of these transitory containers. I wonder how much we lose as a society for running virtually every price to the lowest possible level. [0] - There is a small family run tofu maker in my town and I'm always tempted just to show up with a tofu container that I could buy at an antique shop just to see what they would say. Maybe they would sell me tofu... That would be awesome.
- nathancahill 8y ago
  On a slightly further tangent, a lot of take out places will serve your food in containers that you bring with you as long as their clean. If you're willing to break some perceived social norms. You should absolutely try that at the tofu maker.
- sequoia 8y ago
  > I'm always tempted just to show up with a tofu container that I could buy at an antique shop just to see what they would say Don't talk about it, be about it. It sounds like your assumption that you can no longer buy tofu in bulk or your own container is just that–an assumption. I've seen health-food stores in north america that buy tofu in buckets so you can pick what you want out bulk-bin style. Don't assume things are as bad as they seem! Be the change etc.
dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/ is my favorite documentary on this subject.
microcolonel 8y ago
Remind yourself daily that a better way to effect change on this matter is to choose to buy things which are not intentionally disposable. If you have the cash, it is your responsibility to lead the way as a consumer, people will only try to make a living in industries where people are spending money.
neuro 8y ago
Today, I couldn't find a steel wire brush although it labeled "steel wire brush". The bristles were some type of polymer designed to fail after 1 use. I didn't buy it.
- bash-j 8y ago
  Maybe because people who use them to clean their BBQs have been getting steel wires stuck inside them. Probably too much a risk now for the companies who used to make them? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-bristle-injures-mans-pancreas/8516800 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-bristl...
amelius 8y ago
Stop buying laptops, and buy a PC with expansion slots, so you can upgrade your computer for a while instead of buying a new one every year.
- criddell 8y ago
  I used to buy new computers whenever the new one was twice as fast as the old one. In the 80's that sometimes meant every year. At some point the clock speed stopped going up and more cores were added instead. I think that's about the point I stopped feeling the need to upgrade due to speed. Now I do it more out of reliability concerns. Replacing my desktop after 5-6 years might be a waste of money, but if I'm down for a day or two that will cost me more.
criddell 8y ago
What are some new products that 20 years from now will be heralded as design icons?

541 points by adrian_mrd 8y ago

>"They built those things to last, last a lifetime," Hustwit says. "And if they did break, they built them to be repaired very easily." You know. Kind of like a MacBook.

on_and_off 8y ago
I miss the old macbookpros (and by old I mean 2011 I think ? ) You could replace the battery, RAM, hard drive, optical drive and maybe even CPU (I haven't tried that last one) yourself, with just a screwdriver.
- nanomonkey 8y ago
  I'm writing this on a 2008 MacBook which I've replaced the HD and optical drive with ssd, upgraded the RAM and repeatedly replaced battery. If I could update the CPU and screen I would.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    If you can update the screen... or at least replace it if it breaks. IIRC there are 3rd party screens for it.
    - nanomonkey 8y ago
      Yes, replacements can be had. What I would really like is an upgrade...ie a 1080p screen over the current 1280x800, and perhaps a faster CPU and motherboard. The battery chemistry also leaves something to be desired. I saw a huge difference upgrading the HD. Enough so, that it's still a usable machine that I tend to gravitate towards more than my 13" Dell XPS with 4k screen.
- amelius 8y ago
  I prefer PCs for not locking software to the platform. I can still run Linux on my 386.
- phreeza 8y ago
  Well I suppose there is not much stopping you from still using one of those, right? Except the technology is quite outdated now, so in a way it is a bit moot how maintainable the hardware is, beyond a certain point. Unless they went an extra step, and made things like the processor or even the motherboard upgradeable.
_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
I don't have much experience with MacBooks, but ThinkPads (at least certain lines) are very much of this nature. I have a 2008 ThinkPad which is still usable and in great condition (I've upgraded various things on it, which the design also makes relatively easy).
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  Where / how do you upgrade?
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    At home. The ThinkPads come with comprehensive manuals and one can easily (by undoing one screw) change the drive, (by undoing a couple of screws) upgrade memory, (by undoing a few screws) replace the screen, (by undoing a few more screws) replace the keyboard and/or access the motherboard.
    - goldcd 8y ago
      I've not taken a thinkpad apart for a long time - but my memory of upgrading them is a great one. Yes, they have the technical manuals easily available - but they had the information embedded in their molds for the parts. e.g. If you wanted to 'upgrade the memory' you just removed every screw that had a 'memory logo' next to the screw and then wiggled stuff to see what moved. Eventually you'd see a nice empty memory slot.
      - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
        Yes, that's true. I think the main thing I actually referred to the manual for was the screen (esp. on the X200 where it was a bit trickier; later models are easier). The other bits are more or less intuitive, aided by the icons as you point out.
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      Thanks. I've done basics (mem, HDD/SSD), not keyboard or display.
ozaark 8y ago
/s? Apple are one of the worst offenders
addicted 8y ago
I agree regarding the original MBP and MacBooks. RAM and batteries were easily replaceable. The keyboard, hard disk and several other components were replaceable with a little bit of effort. I don’t believe any of that is true of Apples current lineup.
- snazz 8y ago
  This [edit for clarity: the GP] appears to be intended to be sarcastic. You’re right, but you may have missed the sarcasm, which we know transmits poorly over text-based mediums.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    you're right. thanks. and yet, it's interesting/educational to me that the ambiguity elicited differing responses depending upon the model year of the MBP. the things used to be maintainable! but, nowadays, when a single key starts malfunctioning, it's a pretty significant repair job, a big problem.
umvi 8y ago
I bought a MacBook Pro and a Chromebook 5 years ago. Guess which one I've had to replace the hard drive twice and has slowly become unusable over the course of several OS upgrades and which is just as good as the day I bought it? Chromebook is still ticking, MacBook I gave away. Pretty shameful for being 10x the price of the chromebook
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
So something basic like changing the battery, or adding new memory/drives ... the YouTube repairers are lying when they say you have to entirely dismantle, unglue, fight Apple's customs interventions and suing of parts suppliers?? [Sorry, I just realised this can only be sarcasm.]

RickJWagner 8y ago

Wow, he looks a lot like Chevy Chase. I like his message, though. We should throw away a lot less stuff. - Saves natural resources - Reduces landfills - Provides jobs (the repair technicians) Seems like a good future trend.

galfarragem 8y ago
... And reduces corporations profits. They want to sell you the same product cyclically, not once in your lifetime. Corporations don't give a f*ck about saving resources, reducing waste or providing jobs to repair technicians unless it hurts them economically or they take a cut somewhere in the process. That's the 'bad part' of capitalism. Anyway I agree with you. It's a pity that open source hardware is still in the infancy. Software shows us that open source can be unbeatable and even corporations have to comply if they want to survive.
- mc32 8y ago
  Why can’t they run the repair shops? Alternatively they can run things like the old ATT and lease better built but more expensive items?
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    They do run the repair shops. They charge exorbitant rates for service.
  - galfarragem 8y ago
    As a last resort they can - if the market forces them to - but I suspect that is less profitable than selling new stuff cyclically.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Even if they did care they couldn't do much about it because they would lose out to the competition that doesn't care. The only way we are going to get beyond this is to make sure they have to pay for their externalities.

panzerklein 8y ago

Article by Buffy Gorrilla, huh? I like it.

akras14 8y ago

Amen

krm01 8y ago

Rams has contributed valuable lessons to the design community. You can read more about how his work influenced Apple products here: https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-inspired-apples-iconic-designs-gallery/ https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-ins... His utopian perspective only works if a designer of his caliber is balanced with a visionary CEO. He had a chance to work with such a CEO at Braun. The last time we had such a magic duo was with Steve Jobs & Jony Ive.

devmunchies 8y ago
the same Ive who prided himself in designing the PoS macbook keyboard. I remember when they were first launching that new keyboard there was a video of him touting its revolutionary new design. He is a good designer but needs to prioritize reliability/longevity a bit more.
- Maro 8y ago
  Maybe that time they made a mistake?
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    I don't think there is any doubt about the. The problem is they seem unable to step back from it.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  That's the point, you need a counter weight on the product management side. Jobs/Ive also made marvels like the 12inch powerbook or the iPhone 3GS or the swivel-LCD iMac. Not all was great but there was a high number of winners coming out of that duo. The only thing since then that's on par are the Airpods IMO.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    The swivel-LCD iMac was terrible, it was almost impossible to service or adjust and didn't hold up for very long. I had to wedge the arm to keep mine upright.

mips_avatar 8y ago

He has also designed some fantastic disposable toothbrushes and razors.

butterfi 8y ago

I've started to wonder if designing things to last is truly the best option. Sometimes well built things out live their usefulness and then you have this well built paper weight. Braun razors are a good example. I have one that still works, but I stopped using it after several years. No one wants a used razor, so what happens to it? I think we need to stop trying to make things a permanent as we can and start thinking more about sustainability.

blt 8y ago
It's kind of funny in the reddit "Buy it for life" community where people are talking about, like, socks... the thing you grind your whole body weight onto 5,000 times per day. I'm not going to start buying expensive uncomfortably thick socks just so I can be happy about how long they last.
- kylehotchkiss 8y ago
  Buy Darn Tough socks! If they get holes, you mail them back to Vermont and they mail you back new socks.
  - doubleunplussed 8y ago
    You're kind of buying a sock subscription at that point.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    What’s the carbon footprint of sending them back and forth? My heavy socks last forever because I only wear them when I put on my boots, which is maybe twenty days a year. Eventually the moths will get them.
  - eaandkw 8y ago
    I second Darn Tough socks. I retired from the USMC and I will pay what ever they are asking for the socks. It really does make a difference on a 15 to 20 mile hike. Ever since I was issued my first pair I never went back and they are worth every bit of the $25 dollars per pair. I never got blisters since wearing them.

herf 8y ago

Hustwit's documentary is quite wonderful. https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm

starky 8y ago

This is something that bothers me as well, though my reasons are slightly different. It feels that every new product that is released now is purely designed to drive new sales for some flashy feature that actually make the product worse and less reliable. I'm just not interested in things that have IoT/"smart" features added on, I want something high quality that works reliably and well because it is designed thoughtfully. I realize that these desires simply go against the shareholder mindset that a corporation must be constantly growing and releasing new products in order to be viable. So we aren't likely to see any shift anytime soon.

JKCalhoun 8y ago
Reading the article the thought occurred to me that "disposable" is probably more a factor fo cost + materials (and obviously related). By that I mean, if a thing is cheap and "plasticy" it really doesn't matter how beautifully designed it is — it will feel throwaway. Make the thing from aluminum, glass, magnesium, steel ... the price goes up (the durability goes up) but the value (both perceived and monetary of course) go up as well. While Apple (as an example) try to tempt their customers each year with something new and new-featured, I'm not actually aware of people tossing out their old iPhones (or MacBooks for that matter) even if they do in fact spring for the latest. Instead they seem to get handed down or repurposed (media center, man-cave, etc.). I don't feel the same way about my $150 plastic Chromebook.
- andai 8y ago
  The retina MacBook Pro is by far my favorite machine. I remember for many weeks, being delighted every time I saw it, which isn't an experience I've had with any other kind of laptop. I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn't get the hang of iOS. The physical device itself, though, was great, not just visually, but the tactile experience is spot on. I wish I lived in a world where Apple made Android phones.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I also tried an iPhone for a while, but couldn't get the hang of iOS. Huh? It's a much more designed and coherent experience than Android.

JKCalhoun 8y ago

Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive. Fun read.

ddalex 8y ago
I can't figure out if you're referring to yourself or Mr Rams as cosmopolitan
- will_pseudonym 8y ago
  > Just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive. Fun read. Replying in case others may benefit from the brief explanation. JKCalhoun is describing the degree to which he, JKCalhoun, is cosmopolitan--based on the amount of knowledge he had about Rams. It's missing an implicit "I'm". The sentences can be fully formed as this: "I'm just cosmopolitan enough to know who he is, not cosmopolitan enough to know he is still alive."
  - JKCalhoun 8y ago
    Yes, thank you. ;-)

huffmsa 8y ago

Well I know what I'm watching tonight.

Ericson2314 8y ago

Better end capitalism if you don't want planned obselessence. Rams shouldn't give himself a hard time over that.

omosubi 8y ago
Capitalism itself isn't the problem it's our refusal to change market forces to force companies and individuals to pay for the disposal of the stuff when we no longer have a use for it. This could easily be done if we had the political will power. all the solutions to this exist currently we just aren't taking advantage of them.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  If I were dictator the dump would charge the manufacturer full sales price to dispose of a major appliance that is less than five years old.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Capitalism itself isn't the problem it's our refusal to change market forces to force companies and individuals to pay for the disposal of the stuff when we no longer have a use for it. The absence of government intervention in to “change market forces” beyond it's intervention to establish the basic property model that characterizes capitalism is the central feature of capitalism as an economic system. It's true that modern “capitalist” states all intervene in this way to a significant extent, but that's because capitalism in its pure form was abandoned, almost universally, in the early-to-mid-20th century in favor of mixed economies in developed countries. But the philosophy of capitalism is still a potent force, and resists further intervention and motivates rollbacks of existing interventions.
  - vlehto 8y ago
    The problem with arguing about capitalism is that it has multiple overlapping definitions. You have one definition that any system that has private trade is capitalist. One definition that says any system that has any market intervention is not capitalist. One that claims any system that has private ownership of means of production is capitalist. One where you are not capitalist if you claim to be communist (looking at you China). And then the ones which include also "industrial production" in the equation in one form or another. Whatever you mean by "industrial". I don't know about defenders of current western way of life, but the opponents typically don't declare their definitions of capitalism in beforehand. So it's incredibly unlikely to have any solid argument against them.

nimbius 8y ago

speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, this type of disposable consumerism is absolutely rampant in luxury vehicles. im not sure if its designed to be an expression of luxury, or if the designers just dont care, but it shows in the quality of the final product that most of these icons of performance and opulence are due for major service every few thousand miles. plastic oil filter modules: absolute garbage but Chrysler fell in love with them during the Daimler years and now they show up in basically everything built off the E series chassis. BMW also use them, and they hold up to thermal stress very poorly. can not be recycled in the US like metal filters and have to be shipped, if you want, to germany. plastic water pumps/plastic cooling systems: notoriously BMW, but also show up on Maserati so im told. they leak like a sieve and youll replace a major part of the system every 5k miles. cannot be recycled. cheap hydraulics: im talking about that paddle shift dual clutch weirdness that shows up in high-performance mercedes 6 liter v8 engines with the double turbos. You build an engine that costs 3/4 of the vehicle value and you cheap out at the last minute with pot-steel roller bearings? in an engine that delivers north of 500 horsepower? tapered rollers or even high nickel needle bearings would keep the hydraulics running for years, but the hydraulic actuation assembly for the paddle shift stuff is an absolute dumpster fire. you cant disassemble the actuator, or service the bearings. the whole thing gets thrown out and replaced. death by cad: this is more 'right to repair' but engines that were designed in a laboratory by a grad student from Malaysia who was told to 'make it work.' to service the turbo on some lexus F sports, you must disassembly the entire front of the car. headlights have to come off, the radiator and forward steering linkage too. its a $400 part, but thats $2300 in labor.

hopler 8y ago
What does Malaysia have to so with this?
- mcormier 8y ago
  He’s just implying cheap subcontracted labour from a foreign country where labour rates are lower.
  - 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rdlecler1 8y ago

Today's product improvements happen faster today and many of the improvements are driven by software not just hardware. I get a new iPhone every two years because it is significantly better than the last generation: faster, longer battery life, bigger more vivid screen. Also newer cars are increasingly safer than older cars. And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for quality today when it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners?

jstarfish 8y ago
> And if I want the latest car why should I pay more for quality today when it's only going to be beneficial for the next owners? Because you're already eating the bulk of the depreciation on it anyway? You pay for quality today because you intend to still be using and maintaining it in 20 years. Buying new makes no sense at all when "next owners" are even a factor in the equation. You might as well just lease.
shoo 8y ago
the main objection I can think of is environmental. if the costs of building & shipping & disposing of the product are properly internalised into the cost of the product, then I think your attitude is fine. But I bet the costs won't be properly internalised, at least in the case of consumer electronics, someone else will pay the costs to dispose of the thing (i.e. it won't be disposed of correctly in a way that minimises harm, as doing that would cost more than not), and pay the cost in terms of externalities like pollution involved in the contruction
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

radicaldreamer 8y ago

Patagonia embodies these principles far more than Apple

sigi45 8y ago

I watched a video today or something where you can see human beings testing a kids toy. You know that those humans spend there life building or testing plastic toys for kids in europe etc. which will play with it for a short time and wouldn't care for the world if that toy would be something else. I feel sometimes bad hiring someone to do something i can do. I do know that a professional painter can paint my walls better and quicker than i can and thats probably okay but it still feels weird. I also visited a 1 Dollar Store in US because we were looking for some tweezers and found them there. Those have been so bad, they couldn't hold onto anything. I also saw a cable adapter thingy which was 100% not functional as i was very aware of both plugs.This broken shit made it half around the world to be thrown away by me. We should stop producing shit just because we can.

Gibbon1 8y ago
I have a pair of tweezers I bought from an electronic supply house 30 years ago for what $10. They are hard nickel tool steel. Sharp as ever. The ones we buy at work last about 6 months before the tips get ruined. Why because it's cheaper to make them out of soft stainless. And there is no competition they are all crap.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  And that's because people have gotten used to be able to buy a new one when the old one is crap - actually, most people never get to that point, they just lose them in the piles of stuff they have. Few people use tweezers that much.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Similarly it is basically impossible to buy good files today, because they're all somewhat dull and don't last. I have German, French and Swiss made files from well over forty years ago, which I received in their original wax paper packaging. They are much sharper now and seem to last longer than what I can buy new from the same German manufacturer today. It is like someone forgot how to make proper file steel. Real shame. You'd maybe expect them to get a little bit better, for them to last longer, because more modern steels and better process controls for heat treating etc. may be used, but evidently this isn't the case.

rebuilder 8y ago

I've wanted to buy durable items - far from luxury cars, things like lawnmowers and chainsaws etc. What I've realized is that durability seems to come from having simple mechanisms that are relatively easy to service and maintain. But that implies that you have to maintain the machines. You have to clean your chainsaw regularly, you need to know how to adjust the carburetor, you need to take the time to sharpen the blades etc. For the luxury market, that probably means the customer pays someone to do that work. Maybe it's just cheaper to put in disposable parts that are replaced, since labour costs are pretty high these days.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
The buyers of these cars only keep them for three years. That's their design life. Huffy bikes were only ridden for 50 cumulative miles over their lifetime and were designed for just that.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  The buyers of these cars only keep them for three years The OP noted that these cars need major service after just a few thousand miles. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect to drive less than 5,000 miles in three years.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    The consumers nearly always lease, the service is insured via the warranty and the customer gets a loaner.
  - TylerE 8y ago
    By "major service" he means an oil change - and most of the Euro manufactures are running full synthetic with change intervals of 10,000 miles or longer, so it';s basically a once a year thing for most owners.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 8y ago

skookumchuck 8y ago

Where can I view the documentary Rams?

sbr464 8y ago
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm They have a Vimeo Apple TV app, or download the mp4 etc when purchased there

snazz 8y ago

I love my Nikon D80, a fairly mid-range to high-end DSLR from 2006. It might be challenging to repair (since it is full of a ton of complex and tiny mechanical and electronic components), but it has lasted me over a decade and still competes favorably with smartphone cameras (despite the huge advances in sensors [the D80 has a CCD] and processing since then). I haven’t needed to repair it and haven’t really considered replacing it for the last 12 (going on 13) years. It wasn’t too cheap, but it was obviously meant to last. Nikon has since made cheaper, junkier consumer cameras (basically anything without the sub-command/aperture dial, which is under the shutter button), but the slightly higher-end models have stayed very similarly long-lasting and well-designed as my old D80. The question is: will any smartphone ever begin to compete with that kind of longevity?

steelframe 8y ago
To that point, I'm linking here are a couple of images I took with my Pixel 2 phone while I was on vacation last year. The post-processing technology in the modern cell phone effectively compensates for intrinsic shortcomings in things like the tiny and shallow lens. It takes multiple images at different exposures, detects edges/objects, and automatically composes the images to deal with backlight: https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg https://i.imgur.com/01kVB3O.jpg It simulates portrait photography by detecting which objects are close and which are further away, applying various levels of blur to several composed layers: https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg https://i.imgur.com/M5h2q3r.jpg In hindsight, I have no regrets using my phone rather than dragging along my DSLR on my vacation, particularly because I'm one of those ultralight "take only a 19-liter backpack" types. I just don't see the marginal benefit of whatever that bulky 15-year-old technology has over today's ML-enhanced technology. But I guess your point was about longevity. For me, my phone serves many more functions than just photography, and so I feel that I get so much more out of it than just that one thing. In that sense, it's hard for me to tease apart the camera from the rest of what the phone does when I make the decision to upgrade it. I suppose I can give some signal there, in that I haven't found any reason to replace my Pixel 2 yet.
- GordonS 8y ago
  I used to take a DSLR everywhere when I travelled, but the bulk and weight was always a PITA. The quality of photos a high-end smartphone takes nowadays is really quite incredible, especially given the small lens and sensor. And the convenience of being able to carry all this photographic power in your pocket is even more incredible. It was with some sadness that I recently sold my trusty Canon 450D and Sigma long-range lens - my wife and I travelled the world with that kit, so it held sentimental value beyond the intrinsic. It did me proud for almost 10 years, and I still got a decent percentage of the original purchase price on eBay.

electrichead 8y ago

Are there examples of products made today that have this ethos of lasting for a lifetime? As a side note on cars, what are some cars that would last a long time and are made of parts that are serviceable?

caymanjim 8y ago

I'm not sure if I completely buy the premise of this. We certainly have a lot of cheap, disposable things in our lives, but we also have plenty of durable items as well. Most of the things that I own that are more durable are low-tech, like kitchen items. Yes, you can buy cheap, semi-disposable frying pans, and budget appliances, but that's always been the case, even back in Rams's day. I've owned and used the same cast iron pans, ceramic coffee mugs, drinking glasses, silverware, etc. for in some cases decades. They work and there's no reason to upgrade them. I've got tools that I've been using for decades. Some were inherited from my father. Some I purchased myself. Manual tools can last nearly forever. Plenty of power tools last decades (decent brand drills, circular saws, etc). This hasn't changed. You can also buy cheap, poorly-built versions of many of these things, if you either can't afford or don't need better quality. Again, this has always been the case, even 50 years ago. There's a lot more stuff now, and a lot more cheap stuff to be sure. This creates a disposable culture, but it's not that high-quality, repairable items have disappeared completely; it's just that now people who don't need or want them have more cheap alternatives to choose from. Electronics are an exception to this. Computers and phones in particular are semi-disposable, over a few years. This isn't because they're shoddily-built and unrepairable, it's because they become obsolete. I still have 15-year-old computers that work fine, and have some components that are 20+ years old. They're sturdy, they function just as well as when they were made, but they're obsolete. My primary gaming desktop is nearly 10 years old, though, and it's still going strong. I've upgraded the video card and storage a few times, but other than that, it's almost all original 2011 equipment, and it still plays all modern games. That's totally repairable and self-serviceable. I've heard people bemoan modern quality and disposability before, but I really don't see it as the modern plague it's described as. Plenty of junk was manufactured 75 years ago, but the things that have survived were the items that were built well and had timeless value. I bet Rams has thrown out his old black & white TV, and that photo of him sitting on his cheap, disposable plastic patio furniture shows that he's prone to the same price-vs-quality decisions as the rest of us.

PorterDuff 8y ago
To me, a fascinating angle is when the electronics obsolescence curve runs into the mechanical one. Cars are filled with that kind of thing, but two more interesting ones are products like sewing machines and power tools. Both used to be overdesigned, now they have have additional features and underdesign enabled by built-in microcontrollers. In drills, for instance, it'll back off on the power where an earlier model needed to be able to handle an animal wielding it.

rglover 8y ago

If you haven't, make sure to watch Gary Hustwit's doc on Dieter. Really great.

ekianjo 8y ago

The relationship with Apple products only stop at their look: Apple products were never meant to be repaired.

mikekchar 8y ago

Not completely related, but... I always wanted to try an experiment: Don't buy any dishes. Adapt whatever packaging that you buy your food with to use as dishes. So a yogurt container becomes a bowl. The styrofoam trays that have meat on them become a plate (don't forget to disinfect it first...) Plastic drink bottles become cups (you can make a surprisingly nice wine bottle out of the top of a soda bottle). I wonder how long it would take you to kit yourself out with a complete set of dishes... I often think that even as late as 20 years ago, you could go to your local tofu maker here in Japan with a container and they would put tofu in it for you[0]. If you imagine that you would only need 1 tofu container for your whole life, you could afford to have a really nice tofu container. Out of stubbornness (and the fact that I live in a country that is hot most of the time), I wash all of my containers before I throw them out. I get sad, though, that I have all this stuff which is perfectly usable, but if I'm honest I don't want to use because it is crappy. I want that lovely $100 tofu container rather than the $0.00001 plastic wrapping. I want to look at and touch and enjoy nice stuff every day. It seems to me that it's kind of what it's like to be super rich, where you never see the garbage -- everything is repackaged into lovely containers for you. Of course, in reality, the Andy Warhol-esq lifestyle we live, where everything is commoditised and you can't buy a $10,000 bottle of Coke that tastes different from a $1 bottle of coke is built upon the efficiencies of being able to dispose of these transitory containers. I wonder how much we lose as a society for running virtually every price to the lowest possible level. [0] - There is a small family run tofu maker in my town and I'm always tempted just to show up with a tofu container that I could buy at an antique shop just to see what they would say. Maybe they would sell me tofu... That would be awesome.

nathancahill 8y ago
On a slightly further tangent, a lot of take out places will serve your food in containers that you bring with you as long as their clean. If you're willing to break some perceived social norms. You should absolutely try that at the tofu maker.
sequoia 8y ago
> I'm always tempted just to show up with a tofu container that I could buy at an antique shop just to see what they would say Don't talk about it, be about it. It sounds like your assumption that you can no longer buy tofu in bulk or your own container is just that–an assumption. I've seen health-food stores in north america that buy tofu in buckets so you can pick what you want out bulk-bin style. Don't assume things are as bad as they seem! Be the change etc.

dmitryminkovsky 8y ago

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/ is my favorite documentary on this subject.

microcolonel 8y ago

Remind yourself daily that a better way to effect change on this matter is to choose to buy things which are not intentionally disposable. If you have the cash, it is your responsibility to lead the way as a consumer, people will only try to make a living in industries where people are spending money.

neuro 8y ago

Today, I couldn't find a steel wire brush although it labeled "steel wire brush". The bristles were some type of polymer designed to fail after 1 use. I didn't buy it.

bash-j 8y ago
Maybe because people who use them to clean their BBQs have been getting steel wires stuck inside them. Probably too much a risk now for the companies who used to make them? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12409425 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-bristle-injures-mans-pancreas/8516800 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/barbecue-brush-bristl...

amelius 8y ago

Stop buying laptops, and buy a PC with expansion slots, so you can upgrade your computer for a while instead of buying a new one every year.

criddell 8y ago
I used to buy new computers whenever the new one was twice as fast as the old one. In the 80's that sometimes meant every year. At some point the clock speed stopped going up and more cores were added instead. I think that's about the point I stopped feeling the need to upgrade due to speed. Now I do it more out of reliability concerns. Replacing my desktop after 5-6 years might be a waste of money, but if I'm down for a day or two that will cost me more.

criddell 8y ago

What are some new products that 20 years from now will be heralded as design icons?