24 ms·

Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

• awake 8y ago
  I used to work for a delivery company with this same pay structure. This is garbage and its taking advantage of young people who are looking for jobs.
  • dymk 8y ago
    Serious question: if somebody knows that a job like this is such a ripoff (even if the rates aren't advertised, you _will_ find out soon enough, if via stories like this), why would somebody take a job like this?
    • tedivm 8y ago
      The reason people take jobs like this is that they don't have other options, often for a variety of reasons. I know that a lot of the people I talk to need the flexible hours due to family obligations. For some these types of jobs are supplemental- they aren't the primary source of income, but provide a bit extra when money is tight. For some people though there just aren't a lot of jobs available that match their education and experience.
    • jonathankoren 8y ago
      Because they need the money. People that are desperate for money are frequently exploited. Whether it's through wage theft, or unsafe employment practices, or simply demeaning behavior.
    • adetrest 8y ago
      Not everyone is a software developer with companies fighting over them. Some really don't have options, and the choice is either get no income and be unable to pay your bills, or get screwed over but get some money to pay the bills.
      • HillaryBriss 8y ago
        > Some really don't have options. Unfortunately, in this economy, it's probably more accurate to say "most people really don't have options" rather than "some"
        • owlninja 8y ago
          I thought the labor market was actually very strong right now?
        • CameronBanga 8y ago
          The job market is as strong as it has been in the past ~30+ years?
          • fzeroracer 8y ago
            It's important to keep in mind that a low unemployment rate does not say anything about the overall quality of jobs in the market. So while it's a 'strong market' in the sense that 'unemployment is low', it could also be examined from another angle. Which is the rise of the gig economy giving people a lot of opportunities for work, but work that comes at a cost of being heavily exploited like with Instacart. Nor does it say anything about whether or not people are holding full time vs part time jobs or the stagnant wage issues.
            • HillaryBriss 8y ago
              yes. "unemployment is low" is a measure of the job market. we can say it's "strong" by that measure. but, as you say, when we look at the actual jobs there's a helluva lot of retail and other low wage, limited benefit positions, positions whose salaries have lagged far behind the skyrocketing costs of health care and higher education.
    • jolmg 8y ago
      Because they need to. We're talking about unskilled work. You take what you can get. Such companies know there are unskilled workers that will put up with it and take advantage of that.
    • threwawasy1228 8y ago
      All of the waiters/cooks/waitresses at a low-quality diner I frequent regularly have felonies for robbery or drugs. Ever since I've been going there I would say the vast majority of new hires have been people who couldn't get a job in other places because of their felony records and lack of education. When you have a felony a lot of higher-paying unskilled jobs will simply filter you out as being too high risk or likely to cause trouble. So the only places that will hire these kinds of people can get away with crazy tactics like the ones people are discussing in these threads. When your choice is exploitative tactics or literally no other option because the entire market has you blacklisted you are going to take the horrible option knowing full well it is a horrible option.
  • excalibur 8y ago
    Is this common? When I tip it's always with the intent of helping the individual, never the company. The much larger original bill is their share, in case they've forgotten. Are cash tips an effective method of keeping grubby corporate hands out of it?
    • lazyasciiart 8y ago
      It's an expected business structure in every state where the tipped minimum wage is below actual minimum wage.
    • mawburn 8y ago
      IHOP will adjust wages based on tips, they try to equal it out to minimum wage. My wife lasted about 3 weeks there. It was also by far the hardest I've ever seen her work, and for context we met in the Army.
      • itronitron 8y ago
        I think I finally understand why my former very blue-collar coworkers would never leave a tip when we went out for lunch. I guess they had better information on the local businesses.
        • mawburn 8y ago
          A lot of places' wait staff can make fairly decent money. They will usually make below minimum wage, but they often come out way ahead. So at some level, most businesses where you're expected to tip are using tips to subsidize wages. But there are some who take it to the next level, like IHOP or Instacart. My mom was a waitress most of my life and made decent money, so I always tip 20-25% and a minimum of $5 unless I get extra shitty service. Depending on where you and your coworkers ate at, I would say they were just cheap asses.
        • DATACOMMANDER 8y ago
          No, that’s just rude (given that the tipping culture still exists). If they really wanted to show solidarity they’d leave cash tips, which their server could then forget to report.
• bwb 8y ago
  Should be shut down.
• _drimzy 8y ago
  I don't get it. Should the minimum wage be excluding tips? Edit: I meant shouldn't.
  • fredley 8y ago
    I mean obviously it should be. This is bananas.
  • dan-robertson 8y ago
    Well typically people give tips under the understanding that they are supplementing the worker’s income, rather than the company’s bottom line
  • steve19 8y ago
    If I give you a tip surely it should benefit you. In this case the tip soley benefits instacart.
  • kregasaurusrex 8y ago
    Some states have a minimum wage for tipped employees; where Washington only has a flat minimum wage for both tipped and untipped workers.
  • diminoten 8y ago
    In many states you only have to pay the difference between the "tipped minimum wage" and the actual minimum wage if the employee didn't make enough tips to cover the difference.
• steve19 8y ago
  This is terrible for the worker and highly deceptive to the client. Surely this is fraud? Collecting tips but not passing it on?
  • pjc50 8y ago
    Of course it's illegal to steal tips, but actually enforcing that is another matter. Companies will blatantly build illegal business models. And of course some developer coded this automated tip stealing.
    • WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
      This is why I support unions... when you have strength in numbers, you can have an ethical code that can be followed. Firing one guy because he won't steal from your customers won't fly if the union tells your entire development team to walk and they'll cover wages until they get a better job.
    • mesozoic 8y ago
      Can you cite any statute that says this is illegal?
      • siphor 8y ago
        Might fit under fraud. I hope it does. When I first learned of this tactic, I felt tricked. I assumed with a tip, that I was boosting someone’s salary for a job well done. I’m sure it’s debatable, and that my assumption was wrong? But I imagine most people feel this what a tip is. Fraud n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right.
        • panda888888 8y ago
          It's explicitly illegal under Washington State law: RCW 49.46.020 section 3: "Tips and service charges paid to an employee are in addition to, and may not count towards, the employee's hourly minimum wage."
• twothumbsup 8y ago
  How is this not wage theft? They're literally taking the tips from workers and using it to pay them. I'm tipping the worker, not Instacart.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • lkbm 8y ago
    I thought that was simply how tipping worked. Wage+tips have to average (at least) minimum wage. It's obviously a terrible system, but is this different from how most everywhere with tipping in the US works? I've never worked a tipped job in the US.
    • hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
      Many, many decades ago when I worked in a restaurant, the rule was tipped employees needed to be paid at least 50% of the standard minimum wage. At the end of the day, if the employee didn't clear the minimum wage rate with the total of their wage + tips, the employer was required to fork over the additional amount to equal the minimum wage. However, the absolute bare minimum the employer was allowed to pay was 50% of minimum wage. Not sure if this was just state-specific or if it changed.
• mrgordon 8y ago
  Instacart started out by secretly marking up groceries. Once that game was played out, it seems they started secretly marking down employee (oh sorry, contractor) wages
  • kkotak 8y ago
    Frankly I can't fathom how this company is still in business. I live in the bay area and I don't know a single person who's ever used it or mentions it.
    • loktarogar 8y ago
      There's not as much competition outside of the bay area. This is in Washington State where they likely have a huge market share.
    • jogjayr 8y ago
      I've not really understood the point of grocery delivery other than in cities where car ownership is uncommon. And even there, you can rent a Zipcar once a quarter to stock up on bulky or heavy items (toiler paper, bags of rice or flour etc.) That's what I did when I was a car-less student. For other groceries, especially produce, I prefer to pick stuff out myself. And going to the store myself often exposes me to new products that I would not otherwise have learned about.
    • zymhan 8y ago
      Well in Atlanta for example, it's either Instacart or Prime Now, and Prime Now from Whole Foods is about the worst grocery delivery service possible. Mostly because you maybe get half of what you ordered.
• sokoloff 8y ago
  I read it as they paid him only $0.38 (not $0.80) for his time.
  • jtbayly 8y ago
    You are correct. You can't really count mileage reimbursement as "pay." It's a reimbursement for wear and tear, fuel, etc. I mean, it's hard to fathom how you could get worse than $0.80. But less than half that? That's worse for sure.
• tedivm 8y ago
  There's a related blog post up on Medium by this same group (Working Washington) where they placed the same order, once with tip and once without, so people could directly compare. From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. I'm a huge fan of instacart (my fiance and I use it regularly), but this is definitely going to push me away from the platform. At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash. https://medium.com/@workingwa/instacart-heres-our-22-cents-no-more-tip-theft-low-pay-and-black-box-pay-algorithms-8ff1d7c6b66 https://medium.com/@workingwa/instacart-heres-our-22-cents-n...
  • twothumbsup 8y ago
    > From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. This is 100% wage theft.
    • gowld 8y ago
      According to what ruling? It depends on the agreement between Instacart and delivery staff.
      • deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      • function_seven 8y ago
        The Fair Labor Standards Act disallows this type of agreement for ordinarily-tipped jobs. I don't know how the contractor status of Instacart drivers affects this. They're not technically employees. But the verbiage of "Tip" in the UI is a strong signal to the customer that the money is directly credited to the driver. It should bear no relation to their fee from Instacart. This is wage theft. A horrible agreement doesn't make it right, even if it is legal.
        • pkaye 8y ago
          The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) covers only employees, not independent contractors.
• standardUser 8y ago
  This isn't uncommon or new. Many states allow for tips to offset wages, even if wages fall below the minimum wage. Some states even have a separate minimum wage for tipper workers that is below the standard minimum wage. If you want to blame someone, I suggest looking for the actual culprit and not a law-abiding company. This has little to do with Instacart and everything to do with state wage laws.
  • glhaynes 8y ago
    I'm definitely in favor of improving the laws, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize a company's policy, too, even if it's legal.
  • NegativeLatency 8y ago
    There is a larger problem, but that doesn't absolve Instacart (or any other company) in this matter.
  • jwalton 8y ago
    Washington state appears to not be such a state: https://www.minimum-wage.org/washington/tipped-employee-minimum-wage https://www.minimum-wage.org/washington/tipped-employee-mini...
  • chatmasta 8y ago
    Yes, this is common in the restaurant industry. But a few differences: (1) Tips are expected in the restaurant industry (2) Waitstaff knows what they're signing up for (3) The restaurant does not adjust wages after tips have been received
    • Finnucane 8y ago
      For many years, we've been in the habit of leaving restaurant tips in cash, because of various reports that restaurant managers would basically take card fees out of the tip. I recall hearing more recently that there has been some effort to crack down on that practice, but still, old habits.
    • 8y ago
• parshimers 8y ago
  What absolute garbage, it defies the entire point of tipping. Is this even legal? If a restaurant got caught doing this, they would definitely lose many customers or even get run out of business.
  • EpicEng 8y ago
    It's the norm in many states, so I don't think so. I grew up in IL where waiters make something like $3 / hour. If that + tips is less than minimum wage then the company has to make up the difference. Not quite the same as they don't dock your pay if you make good tip money, but same principle.
    • munk-a 8y ago
      It works out to the same end result (with the exception that waiters usually have some absolute minimum wage they can earn, so if a waiter makes 20$/hr in tips the restaurant still need to pay a bit on top of that. One super annoying thing about this system and people choosing not to tip is a situation like this, assume a waiter is serving two customers in an hour, the local minimum wage is $9/hr and the sub-minimum wage is $3/hr, the first customer tips $4 dollars, yielding a potential wage excess of $2 (assuming a reliable rate) when the second customer tips $0 then the waiter ends up making no money beyond minimum wage. So if you're a tipper another customer that doesn't tip can cancel out your tip. I'm not certain how these are aggregated from an accounting perspective, but I wouldn't be surprised if the window was either a full day or a pay period (in the latter case, every two weeks someone totals $3 * hrs worked, adds on total tips and verifies if that number is above $9 * hrs worked (do nothing) or is below (make up the difference out of the employer's pocket.
  • ABeeSea 8y ago
    It’s 100% illegal in Washington state. Probably not other states though.
• warp_factor 8y ago
  people should simply NOT tip. At restaurant maybe because it is socially mandatory, but anywhere else, a signal should be sent that it is stupid and doesn't make any economical sense to tip!
  • nsenifty 8y ago
    It is not "socially" mandatory as much as the workers suffer otherwise because they are paid less than minimum wage.
    • hsaliak 8y ago
      the market will necessarily sort itself out here. sad but true. if the workers are paid less, they will find employment elsewhere, the company will suffer (as they rightfully should). Instacart has 1.9b in funding, if they are stealing from their workers, it only means that their business model is broken.. or we as consumers can fall into this dishonest game and normalize it.
      • lazyasciiart 8y ago
        > if the workers are paid less, they will find employment elsewhere Thats a big assumption that is demonstrably untrue in many specific cases.
    • somethingle234 8y ago
      Come on. It IS socially mandatory. People are harassed for not tipping. People look down on you for not tipping. Even, for bad service, we still have to tip.
    • jonesdc 8y ago
      If an employee who earns tips does not make the equivalent of minimum wage pay his or her hours worked, then the employer is required to pay difference (i.e., employees will be paid at least minimum wage for their work)
      • 8y ago
• pageandrew 8y ago
  Absolutely terrible practice, and dishonest to both their workers and customers. Shame on Instacart -- never using them again.
• nsenifty 8y ago
  This is why the tipping system in the US is absurd. The whole "you must tip because they get paid peanuts" argument is a circular logic. How about making sure that the worker gets paid fairly by their employer and customers can then optionally tip for outstanding service?
  • prolepunk 8y ago
    It is absurd because its started as a racist system to exclude black people from service industry.
  • umanwizard 8y ago
    The idea that things are the way they are because people are convinced by an "argument" is a common misconception. In reality, the system in the US is what it is because of the mostly random process of cultural development. Changing cultural norms is not easy in any society, even if you have good logical arguments against them.
    • baroffoos 8y ago
      Especially in the US. Just look at their ancient measuring system.
      • waserwill 8y ago
        Hey, I really enjoy the imperial system (besides fahrenhiet). It gets more fun when you get beyond yards and pounds and into stones, hundredweight, and imperial tons and rods, chords, and furlongs.
        • rsynnott 8y ago
          Oddly, in Ireland, we often still use feet, inches, and stone, but mostly only for measuring _people_.
  • nck4222 8y ago
    That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.
• tzhenghao 8y ago
  This is ridiculous! We need to start moving away from tipping. This reminds me of US restaurants. I'd much rather be charged mandatory service fees. It's a poor way to signal poor food/service by hurting those in front than the cooks behind.
• karl_p 8y ago
  My wife looked into instacart and we canceled after learning they don't provide business car insurance for their drivers. What a scam.
• Delete-Prod-Log 8y ago
  Of course. How else can instacart make money to pay it's developers at San Francisco hq? You have to skim every penny from the bottom to sit on top. #bezosDidIt #gatesDidIt #jobsDidIt Nothing new
• B-Con 8y ago
  > That's right: the customer's tip doesn't get added to the worker's check — it just gets deducted from what Instacart pays. In other words, up-front tips go to Instacart, not to the worker. My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not allow for employers to whithold tips.[0] Gratuity/tip is a legally recognized concept. You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money it generates. There are legal expectations around how the money goes from the customer to the worker. [0] https://www.ramoslaw.com/is-your-employer-committing-wage-theft-by-withholding-your-tips/ https://www.ramoslaw.com/is-your-employer-committing-wage-th... [edit] Added "not"
  • jetrink 8y ago
    > My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does allow for employers to whithold tips I think this sentence says the opposite of what you intended it to.
    • B-Con 8y ago
      Correct. I fixed it.
  • ABeeSea 8y ago
    Yup, and Washington state specifically does not allow tip credits. Tips in WA are always on-top or hourly wage. (Which is why even a terrible bartender in Seattle can do pretty well.)
    • dabockster 8y ago
      But as soon as someone 1099's you, you're out of luck. Found this out the hard way when I got 1099'd by a startup I was working for in 2017. The IRS has a mechanism on the Federal level to fix things enough to avoid the higher tax burden, but WA state explicitly requires a W2 from an employer for even the most basic of unemployment benefits (the determination letter from the IRS apparently doesn't count).
      • 8y ago
• zeko1195 8y ago
  The whole tipping system should be stopped. The businesses will be forced to start paying fair wages to their workers.
  • magic_beans 8y ago
    A restaurant in my neighborhood did not have tipping before New York raised its minimum wage to $15 because they paid their servers a "fair wage". It has since re-implemented tipping.
• babaganoosh89 8y ago
  DoorDash does the same thing of “stealing” tips. Either you should tip in cash or not at all.
  • tedivm 8y ago
    Not only do they steal tips, they also jack up the prices of the food itself. I make six figures and honest to god I have no idea how anyone affords to use DoorDash.
    • kojeovo 8y ago
      The restaurants, like the grocery stores in Instacart's case, determine the cost of food in their respective apps.
      • tedivm 8y ago
        That's not true. > DoorDash, which launched in 2014, services 15 metro areas in the U.S.; like many other delivery apps, it employs couriers to pick up food from restaurants and deliver it to customers. But beyond the usual delivery fees, taxes, and tips customers will shell out for, DoorDash also inflates the cost of each menu item — often unbeknownst to customers. For example, a sandwich that costs $10.99 directly from a restaurant might be listed as $14.95 on DoorDash, and the app gives customers no indication they're being upcharged. As Bloomberg notes, "Other delivery apps, such as Postmates and Square Inc.'s Caviar, typically list the same prices as those on the restaurants' menus." https://www.eater.com/2016/3/18/11261548/doordash-delivery-service-fees https://www.eater.com/2016/3/18/11261548/doordash-delivery-s...
        • kojeovo 8y ago
          That's a 3 yr old article
          • tedivm 8y ago
            It's a better source than you provided.
• swozey 8y ago
  I was a huge user of Instacart 2 years ago when my nearest grocery store turned into one of the busiest Whole Foods in my city that I didn't enjoy dealing with. The way they keep working to create opaqueness around their tipping to the point that last year Drivers were handing out pamphlets explaining how to remove the "Service Fee" (which nobody but Instacart gets) to tip the drivers was a huge red flag. Removing the service fee was on a 2nd page you had to go to and by default I believe was 10% of your order. If you've never used Instacart the groceries in my experience have been quite a bit more expensive than they'd be in stores so they're making revenue on that end already. I started using them a bit again this year and now there's only a "Driver Tip" section with I believe a hard locked in service fee. Does the shopper get the tip as well? Is the driver the shopper as well now? In my situation the shopper is doing FAR more work than the driver. I want to tip the people well because I know Instacart doesn't pay well, but I don't want to give a $26 tip for $130 in groceries (which is usually 3-4 bags) going to the person who only spent 10 minutes in a car to drop my groceries off at my front door (and Instacart drivers never read the Delivery notes, I've had to walk out and walk them over to me each time last year that I ordered). Is the tip split between the shopper and the driver? It only says "Driver Tip". Everything just seems to be disgustingly opaque with this company and I really do not feel right even using it anymore so I've used it incredibly sparingly (maybe 3 times last year) as of late. edit: I just checked, there's an info icon and it says 100% of the tip goes to the driver. So should I not tip based on the entire process of shopping and delivery? I don't even want to use this app anymore because I shouldn't have to stop and waste time considering these things. This company just screams deceptive to me. Guess I'll be done with it.
  • weaksauce 8y ago
    100% of the tip goes to the driver yes. but, that statement is completely compatible with instacart changing how much they pay their driver for that delivery down to 80 cents. I hope this was a mistake on the part of instacart.
    • kuhhk 8y ago
      > I hope this was a mistake on the part of instacart. According to the screenshot of Instacart's email, they confirmed this is accurate and was most definitely not a mistake. And according to the article, Instacart has doubled-down instead of apologizing.
• throwaway66666 8y ago
  So you are essentially thanking and tipping instacart, not the worker. Evil like a villain from a disney movie.
• gowld 8y ago
  How about paying people who serve you instead of passing the "buck" to the someone else? Why start tipping for outstanding service, instead of setting the floor at $0 for 0 service? Answer: because people like to pay less for stuff and let the company eat the blame.
  • Verdex 8y ago
    Yep, personally, when I go to mcdonalds, I like to pay the guy at the register, the people cooking, the manager, and the unfortunate individual on trash duty all separately. Additionally, I refuse (on basic principle) to eat at any restaurant where I haven't mapped out their entire supply infrastructure. I made myself an app that keeps track of how much I spend at each of these restaurants in any given month and then I tip each entity a healthy percent (20% being the minimum because really if you can't afford 20% you can't afford to eat out). Currently, I'm tipping the truck drivers that deliver supplies, the factory workers who prepare the frozen food, the farmers, the accountants, the HR department, and the people who do road maintenance on the streets that all of the above use to get to work.
    • dependsontheq 8y ago
      “the customer can decide how much he wants to pay everybody in the supply chain” sounds a bit to too much like a possible pitch for a startup.
      • Verdex 8y ago
        True. But lets be clear. I'm tipping everyone in the supply chain. They also get paid by their employer. ... You know now that I'm talking about it. I don't think I tip stockholders of C-Corps. I did consider S-Corp stockholders and decided that they probably shouldn't get a tip, but C-Corps stockholders are kind of part of a financial supply chain if you think about it. Now that we're on the topic, can anything think of anyone else I'm leaving out? I wouldn't want to ignore the hard work of the people who make my daily life possible.
      • lovich 8y ago
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• HillaryBriss 8y ago
  i heard this same thing from an instacart worker more than a year ago. at the time i was confused and kind of doubted her story, but now i see that Instacart employment really is just as shitty as she said. wow.
• diminoten 8y ago
  Where's the outrage for the millions of service industry employees who also have to deal with this, and have been dealing with this for decades? Why's Instacart getting the unique bad press?
  • DATACOMMANDER 8y ago
    In part because they’ve added a layer of deception to the practice. In part—and I’m speculating here—because this is a young company, founded and run by people in (or nearly in) our cohort, and were disappointed in them as peers (albeit peers who struck it rich).
    • diminoten 8y ago
      Maybe, I'm leaning towards the, "people didn't realize what tip wages were" explanation though.
• rdm_blackhole 8y ago
  I have never understood the tipping concept. Just pay your workers minimum wages at least and make tipping optional. I shouldn't have to tip the "employees" just because a company can get away without paying even minimum wage to its "employees". There is something seriously broken with the whole tipping thing.
  • rafiki6 8y ago
    Or increase the cost of your product or service and offer incentives to employees after you've already raised their wages.
• jiveturkey 8y ago
  Instacart doesn't list any company officers or important contacts on their website. I guess because they would end up dealing with irate customers too much. But here are the vile people responsible for this practice: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/instacart#section-current-team https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/instacart#section-cu...
• mothsonasloth 8y ago
  Gigeconomy is just modern day slavery dressed as an informal employee contract with, "work your own hours".
• HillaryBriss 8y ago
  Over the past two years, these kinds of complaints have piled up against Instacart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instacart#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instacart#Controversy
• stonogo 8y ago
  Why doesn't the headline read "Instacart (YC S12)"?
  • arzt 8y ago
    I would like to see this corrected.
  • julienfr112 8y ago
    Maybe the (YC [SW]\d{2}) is good news only ?
    • pageandrew 8y ago
      lol we really needed a regex for this
  • orky56 8y ago
    It's only used for positive news
    • dabockster 8y ago
      And the mods remove it if it's posted on negative news. Wait, you thought HackerNews was impartial? Brb getting banned and blacklisted.
  • farazzz 8y ago
    Unless the mods add the YC tag posthumously to posts that forget it, it is the mistake of the original poster
  • IMTDb 8y ago
    This need to be higher
  • basil-rash 8y ago
    They don't add that to companies most people will already recognize: Airbnb: https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+airbnb https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+ai... Stripe: https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+stripe https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+st... Cruise: https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+cruise https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+cr... etc.
• hathawsh 8y ago
  This makes me wonder why people bother working for Instacart when there are so many alternatives. I googled for "service economy gig" and got this huge list: https://www.wonolo.com/blog/best-gig-economy-apps/ https://www.wonolo.com/blog/best-gig-economy-apps/ I guess this Wonolo service is for choosing the right services to work for. Now I'm wondering how many Wonolo clones there are. :-)
  • vkou 8y ago
    What makes you think these other jobs haven't adopted, or won't adopt the same 'business model'?
  • afterburner 8y ago
    Many people are willing to work for minimum wage, so I'm not sure I understand your question. He didn't actually get 80 cents an hour, but he also didn't get the wage+tip he expected. Instead, Instacart got tipped, and he effectively got the regular wage. I hope!
• atom-morgan 8y ago
  Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.
  • lenticular 8y ago
    Collective action is essentially impossible among consumers though. Boycotts essentially never work. Not only that, but who are you going to use instead of instacart: Amazon Fresh? Uber? Or will you drive yourself to the store and buy it from minimum wage employees who work unstable hours? Also, what do you think the working conditions were like for whoever picked that asparagus?
    • rubbingalcohol 8y ago
      At least there are federal protections for employees. Companies that offset their operating costs onto an on-demand contract labor force are in a really exploitative gray area. I disagree that collective action is impossible. Consumers become aware of problems, eg. high fructose corn syrup, and act accordingly, eg. buying less sugary junk. Cultural change is slow-moving but it starts with people giving a shit.
      • lenticular 8y ago
        The corn syrup example doesn't really work here. People make decisions with their money, and those decisions are primarily based on self interest. Not becoming diabetic is very much in folks' self-interest. That underlies people not wanting foods with corn syrup. It has nothing to do with concerns about wasteful corn subsidies or deceptive food practices.
      • FireBeyond 8y ago
        > Consumers become aware of problems, eg. high fructose corn syrup, and act accordingly, eg. buying less sugary junk. Are we actually doing that? I've seen / heard little evidence that our trend on sugar is moving in a healthy direction, at least in the US.
• duxup 8y ago
  This is terrible, but unsurprising. The whole gig thing is basically passing the risks associated with having employees (injuries and managing them) / sales variation risks (having to pay people when sales are up or down) onto folks who are no longer employees. The idea that they'd take even more from their contractors based on other factors just seems natural. Maybe a "franchise fee" type thing is next....
• leipert 8y ago
  German reader here. Because of minimum wage you'd only tip if service was good (or always tip if you have enough money, my parents generation are more frugal than I am). Delivery services often get around minimum wage because they use the "Uber" trick and technically the drivers are "self-employed", always tipping those folks. Anyway: Are tips taxable in the US? Here in Germany tips are tax-free under certain conditions: If I give it directly to the barber, waiter, etc., it is a non-taxable event, while if the employer collects the tip and divides it up under all employees it is a taxable event.
  • Rebelgecko 8y ago
    Officially yes, all tips are taxable. However people that get cash tips often don't report and pay taxes on them.
  • donarb 8y ago
    Tips are taxable income in the US, even to the point where the IRS will assume a minimum amount of tip income, even if you didn't receive that much.
    • donarb 8y ago
      Here is an article about the Supreme Court case that upheld it. http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/18/business/fi-tips18 http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/18/business/fi-tips18
  • ylesaout 8y ago
    Here is a difference between EU countries. In France, you cannot even tip by credit card or anything else that can be controlled by the employer or the state. It's only cash and at your discretion. Thus, it cannot even be a taxable event. However you need to have some cash if you want to tip.
    • evilolive 8y ago
      I think you can, you have to ask "I want to tip x euros" before the waiter puts your cc in the machine. It feels really awkward and so most don't do it
• rafiki6 8y ago
  More evidence as to why tipping culture needs to die. Tipping fundamentally takes away the responsibility of paying someone for their work from the employer to the customer. In what other business context do I pay an employee of a company I deal with directly outside of the service industry where tipping is common? Wages are a cost of doing business. Pay the worker enough. If you want to still provide them an incentive to work hard, offer them incentive plans! Bring up your prices to reflect the true cost of your product or service. It's time to abolish tips.
  • mxfh 8y ago
    Tipping is the "trickle down"-myth's small scale cousin. It doesn't only take away responsibility of paying, but adds emotional and mental load cost to the customer. It's hilarious that people accept that in exchange for an illusory level of control (you being the mini manager/boss of your service task) over quality of service.
    • rafiki6 8y ago
      I think many people just haven't traveled to for e.g. many European countries where tipping culture is mostly non-existent because over there people the service industry receive appropriate wages and the prices of things are adjusted accordingly. The quality of service is good, and the people working seem much happier. They have a guaranteed income for their time.
      • mxfh 8y ago
        As a customer tipping culture is highly annyoing to me, I don't want to be upsold three times per dining at least. The attention given, coming form european non-tipping culture, just feels absurdly fake to me. I feel sorry about this, but from my experience, the only other business that comes to mind, that is so build on 1-on-1 flattering "good choice sir" and selling attention to me is prostitution. I mostly don't need that much attention, when I just wand to have a beer or lunch.
        • 8y ago
• wilkskyes 8y ago
  What are the poor legitimately at fault for then? I'm tired of this implication that the poor can never be at fault for anything, because they are so poor. It is an overly simplified sympathy that doesn't always reflect reality.
  • saagarjha 8y ago
    What should they be at fault for?
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  • bunderbunder 8y ago
    The parent didn't say "the poor can never be at fault for anything", they listed a few legitimate examples of victim blaming. There was the "everything the fault of the poor" bit in the first sentence, but that was obvious hyperbole.
    • wilkskyes 8y ago
      And I never said the poor are at fault for everything, but I'm being treated as such it seems. What I want to know are examples of things that the poor are at fault for.
      • bunderbunder 8y ago
        Within the context of this conversation, the burden of figuring that out would fall more properly on you, since you're the one invoking the existence of things the poor are at fault for in order to challenge someone else. I think, though, that, unless you're coming up with examples that specifically demonstrate that the things the parent poster listed weren't actually victim blaming, such an exercise would be tangential to the subject at hand.
  • Latty 8y ago
    I mean, if you think that's the case, feel free to give examples. The posts here are talking about specific cases, if you disagree with them, say so. You haven't really said anything here, just vaguly created a strawman that people are arguing "the poor can never do wrong", which was never the claim.
• debt 8y ago
  Instacart is AWFUL. They're paying shit wages and thus offering shit quality, because they're offering a service that literally is unscalable. The logistics of laser-guided-bomb-type delivery of groceries from store to fridge is asinine. Yo, grocery store shopping doesn't suck bad enough to pay someone else to do both the shopping and delivering! I'll pick up the pre-picked-up/bought groceries. I don't need you to delivery them directly to my fridge; I think I can handle that part. Just bring them out to my car when I pull up. Problem solved, wages go up, quality goes up, I get my groceries. Everybody wins.
  • tedivm 8y ago
    Instacart is great for people who live in urban areas and don't have a vehicle. If you live in a rural area or have a car then it's definitely not as useful. Because of things like instacart I can rely completely on public transit and am able to get rid of my car (saving hundreds a month).
  • lovich 8y ago
    I mean, Instacart is awful and I stopped using them the last time they fucked with their employees pay based on both moral grounds and the fact that it incentivized their employees to cut a million corners. It is a useful service to me however. I no longer need to own a car or pay for two lyfts back and forth from the grocery store, so thats several hundred to several thousands dollars I save every year now that I got rid of my last need for a car. If I lived outside of a city where a car was mandatory I could see it being relatively worthless but in the city, its a massive cost and time saver
  • coupdejarnac 8y ago
    I saw the ceo speak at a YC event in NYC a few years ago, and I looked around the room and thought "what the fuck is this shit". I guess Instacart ticked the checkbox of tackling a problem that doesn't scale, something YC looks for. To me it symbolizes everything I hate about startup culture- the CEO trying to change the world by doing something mundane, the circle jerk celebrating a stupid idea and dubious ethical practices...etc.
  • bonestamp2 8y ago
• notJim 8y ago
  Instacart is not the only one of these apps doing this. Amazon Flex/Prime Now also does the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/66zkx7/who_is_going_around_telling_customers_that_amazon/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/66zkx7/w... There is some back-and-forth in that thread, but the gist of it seems to be the same as here, where Amazon takes tips into account when they calculate the base wage, which can result in getting a low base wage if there's a large tip.
• harry8 8y ago
  When workers are thieving from their employer there is a very real prospect of jail. There seems to be no prospect of jail for managers thieving from workers. Why is that?
• purple-again 8y ago
  I’m confused and hoping someone can clear it up. My understanding is you are allowed to pay well below minimum wage to employees that receive tips. If the sum of those tips plus what you pay them does not equal or exceed minimum wage the employer is required to pay them more money until they reach minimum wage. This isn’t often an issue because tipped employees will beat minimum wage significantly. Is this not Instacart doing the same thing where your wage is .82 plus tips as long as that amount is above x wage. If it’s below x they will pay you x. However in this instance it’s an issue because the tipped employees are not often making more than x even with tips therefore the consumer is misled about who their tip money is going to.
• muppetman 8y ago
  It's funny (to me, anyway) that this sort of things affects only America (and I guess Canada?) This odd culture you have there of tipping and how it's so tightly integrated into your society. As a non-American I had to read the article a few times to understand what the problem was - I thought this was just how tipping worked in the US. I always read of service workers who only manage to "stay afloat" by the tips they earn, this seems to be almost the same thing, but reading it again I can see it isn't. Here in NZ there is sometimes a "tip jar" at the counter of a cafe where you might throw in a coin or two (say $1 or $2) as a way of thanking the staff overall. High end restaurants will also offer a place for you to add a tip if you feel you got exceptional service, but there's also no hard feeling or death stares if you don't put anything there. I hope tipping dies in the US and people get paid fairly regardless. But then you have bigger problems to solve first of all :)
  • gbear605 8y ago
    Legally in America, employees who get tips instead of wages have the tips added onto a minimum of $2.13, which is three times more than these contractors were making. More than that, these contractors are from Washington state, which doesn't allow this exception - the minimum wage for everyone is $12/hour (except if you're an Instacart "employee," of course). Many other states also have higher minimum wages. Also, these Instacart workers were hired under a different pay system (wage + tips) and then this replaced it, while regular tipped employees at least knew it coming in.
  • afterburner 8y ago
    Yes, and Canada. Expected tip amounts have also been going up, I assume now because companies/restaurants want to hide a price rise behind it.
    • parthdesai 8y ago
      hide a price rise? Food prices have gone up since increase in minimum wage last year, and default tip option is 18% at majority of the places. Oh and that 18% counts the 13% tax, so you are tipping more than 18%.
• rebuilder 8y ago
  I guess this is how you actually disrupt a labour-intensive industry. You lower costs, or provide a much better service that somehow established companies haven't been able to provide profitably. Sure, you can try to use technology and innovation to reduce overhead. That's the pitch usually, I think. If you can provide a service with a lower headcount, you can be much more cost-efficient. But it seems a lot of the companies aiming for disruption aren't able to actually do that, so instead they reduce payroll costs by simply refusing to take on the responsibilities employers are traditionally expected to take. It'll be interesting to see how long this model of "disruption" can be sustained.
• cloud_thrasher 8y ago
  How is this any different from the what wait/serving staff experience. Most jobs are a flat wage (possibly minimum) and tips. It's always like that and still is. Maybe, the next time you leave a dollar tip for your server, you'll think again.
• todipa 8y ago
  I use instacart weekly. Not going to leave them any tip via the platform anymore...
• IMTDb 8y ago
  Their help section specifically states : "Shoppers appreciate tips as a way of recognizing great service and 100% of your tip goes directly to the shopper delivering your order. For more information about tipping, follow this link." Source: https://www.instacart.com/help/section/200761924#213895126 https://www.instacart.com/help/section/200761924#213895126 payment/service fee section If confirmed this is straight out lying to your customers
  • afterburner 8y ago
    Goddamn liars.
  • smallgovt 8y ago
    What you quoted is not a lie. 100% of the tip is going to the shopper. The problem is they are not paying the shopper on top of the tip.
    • D_Alex 8y ago
      I am sure you are being humorous, but anyway, the FTC says: "When consumers see or hear an advertisement, whether it’s on the Internet, radio or television, or anywhere else, federal law says that ad must be truthful, not misleading, and, when appropriate, backed by scientific evidence. The Federal Trade Commission enforces these truth-in-advertising laws, and it applies the same standards no matter where an ad appears – in newspapers and magazines, online, in the mail, or on billboards or buses." and: "Statements that are literally true may be deceptive if they leave a misleading impression". Unfortunately, the first step the FTC takes if they even get around to it is to direct the advertiser to remove such statements. No fines are levied if the advertiser complies with this request.
• mesozoic 8y ago
  This is legal though right? Isn't it the same way restaurants pay their servers so little wage? My opinion is abolish tip culture.
• sfilargi 8y ago
  I suspect DoorDash is doing something similar, that's why I always choose 0 tip on the app and tip them cash when they arrive.
• sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  I'm not an American so looking at this from afar - but according to this tips go straight to 'Shoppers'? Are they actually doing something completely different? https://www.instacart.com/help/section/200761964#115005643323 https://www.instacart.com/help/section/200761964#11500564332...
  • draw_down 8y ago
    The tips go straight to the shoppers, yeah. And then their pay gets, you know, "adjusted" (in Instacart's favor) in the amount of the tip. The whole point of the tip is that it is supposed to be a bonus on top of the worker's normal pay. Instead, here it is displacing the money that Instacart would have otherwise paid them.
• supernova87a 8y ago
  I guess the real test of how this system works is: -- if TIP > minimum wage -- does Instacart record a negative -$ adjustment such that a person's payment will only ever be the maximum payment, regardless of how much tip the customer gives? That would really be egregious.
• throwaway5752 8y ago
  I am 100% in favor of tipping, and all of you people calling to ban it don't understand service jobs. Those doing so should be ashamed, as they are effectively victim-blaming in this context (in what really seems close to wage theft, at least in spirit, by Instacart) to push this cause. This is really much more a story of ethics in software development. Someone had to know they were doing the wrong thing when they wrote this. edit: No, not going to talk about tipping. Like it or not, it is extremely common all over the world, and unrelated to this submission (which is about lowering "shopper's" compensation to almost negligible levels when tips are given).
  • passivepinetree 8y ago
    Why are you in favor of tipping? Can you justify your reasoning?
    • perpetualpatzer 8y ago
      Not parent commenter, but the common argument is that for the class of service jobs where the employee's role is to interface with the customer and provide them a service, customers are in a better position to assess the employee's job performance than a manager. For that class of jobs, giving customers influence over the employee's "merit bonuses" is a more accurate system of rewarding performance and requires less managerial oversight to ensure good service. There seems to be some logic to that to me. Whether that justifies a reduction in the minimum base wage for tipped roles, etc. I think of as a separate question, but I don't see tipping as a structurally problematic norm as long as the job interacts with many customers and a significant portion of the population actually tips.
      • deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  • neoflex 8y ago
    >I am 100% in favor of tipping, and all of you people calling to ban it don't understand service jobs. I used to live in Japan where the service is quite better than in the US and tipping is frowned upon. You honestly don't know good service if you think tipping is necessary. And to those saying to tip in cash, note that a lot of the times those that receive tips in cash typically don't report it as earnings on their income taxes. This is why I never tip cash. Restaurants and such really just need to up their prices and do away with tipping. The practice itself is inherently discriminatory/racist in that better looking people typically receive higher tips, women typically receive higher tips than men, Whites receive higher tips than Blacks. It's really a disgusting practice.
• droithomme 8y ago
  Hm, 42 cents of that was his mileage pay for the trip. 38 cents was his actual salary.
• jklein11 8y ago
  Isn't this what restaurant's do with wait staff in the US? I know in NJ wait staff are required to be paid minimum wage. Typically the restaurant pays them less (I think it was around $3) and then their tips get them to minimum wage. If they don't get enough tips the restaurant is required to pay them the difference(although in practice I'm not sure this ever happens) If someone is willing to be paid $10 to deliver groceries, does it matter who is paying them $10 for it? I've never used instacart before. Is the verbiage around leaving a tip lead the end user to believe that they are giving it directly to the person making the delivery?
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• elken 8y ago
  This is taking advantage of both the customer and the worker. I am not an instacart user myself but I use similar services and I expect that any tip will be delivered to the driver. I'd be pissed off to find out otherwise.
  • ylesaout 8y ago
    I don't live in US, but for sure the only way to ensure your tip goes to the right person is to give it with cash.
• module0000 8y ago
  Vote with your wallet - tweeting/posting/complaining is fine and should be done - but denying them revenue is a universally effective message to bad businesses.
• miguelmota 8y ago
  In the ancient history of gratuity, tips were originally given _before_ any service was received so that you can get priority service. It's absurd that tips now feel mandatory because of social pressures particularly in the US.
• qwerty456127 8y ago
  Always tip in cash. Tips should be a purely private thing, nobody but the tipper and the tipped should know about the tip.
  • justtopost 8y ago
    Technically the IRS gets a cut, but yes, no private entity needs to know.
    • qwerty456127 8y ago
      Perhaps it does but my opinion is it should not.
• leesjensen 8y ago
  This really isn't that different than tipping at your favorite bar. Employers artificially pay service workers less than they should with the assumption that the customer will make up the rest. The real answer is to supporting the broken tipping model. Pay people an honest wage and expect them to do their job without expecting a consumer to pay a bribe to get good service.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• leesjensen 8y ago
  This really isn't that different than tipping at your favorite bar. Employers artificially pay service workers less than they should with the assumption that the customer will make up the rest. The real answer is to supporting the broken tipping model. Pay people an honest wage and expect them to do their job without requiring a consumer to pay a bribe to get good service.
• kbyatnal 8y ago
  DoorDash does the same thing, which is why I stopped using them as well. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/doordash/comments/963kyv/if_you_are_a_customer_do_not_tip_via_the_app/?st=JRICRPTX&sh=61c36ffa https://www.reddit.com/r/doordash/comments/963kyv/if_you_are...
• consultSKI 8y ago
  Ouch. But unions are not the answer.
• ddingus 8y ago
  No Instacart for me. This is not OK at all. Others have said why. I will spend some time to make others aware. I really hate this sort of thing. Viscerally.
• jolmg 8y ago
  > We include tips in the calculation so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings will be after completing the batch. > Tips have always been included in our calculation of earnings and it helps provide a reminder to customers that you are providing a valuable service. Being fed garbage like that is pretty insulting, though it's interesting to see how far they're willing to stretch logic to try to put a positive spin on it. I mean, "we reduce your earnings so you can feel useful"? Man, logic broke right there.
• xfitm3 8y ago
  This is an outrage. I used instacart for awhile and eventually stopped - it just became too expensive. I would always waive the service fee when possible and tip the driver in cash. Glad I did - now knowing they use it to deny living wages.
• sergiotapia 8y ago
  Instacart, a YCombinator funded company pays their workers $0.80 cents an hour.
• dzonga 8y ago
  Problem here: Isn't Instacart but the so called rich-hipster millenials that need / want / to use Instacart. Or lazy or just for the sake of convenience at the sake of a poor soul, don't wanna shop groceries for themselves. If your time is limited then you could easily use Amazon fresh/ Walmart / Boxed for your groceries. But nah, it's SV 2.0 Human exploitation at it's finest, Capitalism as usual. & to people building these services, put humans first. It's sad to see someone in HEB wearing a green tshirt shopping for someone - it's like society has rendered these people useless only fit to serve master. Basically slavery 2.0 with a little wage on top.
• bambax 8y ago
  Startup culture is a study in psychopathy. - lack of empathy: Uber, Instacart, etc. etc. etc., exploiting the poor - parasitic behavior: aggressive tax optimisation/tax evasion, Amazon employees relying on food stamps for subsistance - superficial charm: get rich quick - pathological lying: cf. Facebook denying they ever did anything wrong - manipulativeness: "make the world more open and connected" and my personal favorite, - grandiosity: "change the world!", "solve physics for good!", "be immortal!"
  • whoisjuan 8y ago
    "solve physics for good!"... that was a quick meta.
    • shard972 8y ago
      Turns out machine learning has some limitations.
  • tchaffee 8y ago
    That's quite a broad generalization. For sure a lot of the biggest names have done ethically questionable things. It's no doubt that growing that fast and gaining that much power is going to hugely amplify whatever ethical flaws the founders have. And no one is ethically perfect. That's not to excuse Uber, Facebook, Google, Amazon or any of the more egregious companies. But it's just a case of confirmation bias if you didn't look for counter-examples to try to disprove your theory. Are the following companies ethically perfect? I doubt it. But I haven't heard much bad about them and they have changed my life for the better significantly: AirBnb, Dropbox, Stripe, Rappi, WhatsApp, Square, Netflix. I bet I could find others.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • gbear605 8y ago
      WhatsApp is owned by Facebook as of 2014, so unfortunately all the same issues with Facebook apply to them too.
• _robbywashere 8y ago
  Are instacart 'employees' private contractors/1099? Wouldn't that mean instacart is even LESS legally able to take their tip money? As in actual employees who are tipped will have a minimum wage that must be met, which is why in some places tipped positioned wages can be as low as $3.
• wnevets 8y ago
  and to think I was just about to sign up and use it with www.bjs.com. Now that won't be happening
• JohnGB 8y ago
  One of the many things that I love about the Netherlands is the lack of tipping in the culture. People get paid a decent wage, and so tipping is only something done if the service is amazing.
  • electriclove 8y ago
    I'm almost with you there. Get rid of tipping completely. Employers should pay people a decent wage and reward excellent behavior. Don't put that on the customer at all.
• _robbywashere 8y ago
  I would be interested in seeing a gig economy service being run and equally shared by the employees, or worker-owned.
• Pfhreak 8y ago
  Anyone know if Amazon Prime Now or other similar delivery services operate the same?
• YeahSureWhyNot 8y ago
  oh really? employer paying way less than minimum wage because employee gets to keep some of the tips is shocking news now? ever heard of restaurants? they have been doing this for decades.
• WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
  The tip economy SUCKS. When will it stop! Now it's part of the future that is being sold to us as the new nirvana. Why can't things change? Employers love it since they can underpay. Some employees love it since they can make a very good living but that's a fraction of the total. But overall it creates an economy subclass that's constantly struggling. They have trouble paying the bills. It's tough work plus they have to deal with upset customers even though they likely had no control of the situation. I'm a fan of a permanent surcharge on the bill rather than having to deal with giving a tip. Pizza delivery places have a delivery charge now plus a fuel surcharge, as far as I am concerned they can add a service charge too. Yes, services will become more expensive. But over time an economic equilibrium begins to appear at which time we can reevaluate and change. But the last thing we need to do is bring it into the future.
• watmough 8y ago
  I will not use any of these gig economy BS companies. They're often exploitative of workers and this is just exactly the kind of thing that reinforces my decision to never stay at an AirBNB, never take Lyft, Uber etc.
• snissn 8y ago
  (just tip in cash)
• gorpomon 8y ago
  If Instacart can't afford to pay their employees, then they should not operate. They are stealing tips from their employees to make profit. It is unethical to use their service. Stop using it and write them an e-mail explaining why. Feel free to resume using it if they stop this practice and apologize.
• jliptzin 8y ago
  I always tip in cash, except in the rare cases where I happened to not have cash on me. I am always under the assumption that this kind of thing is the default not the exception; when you add tip to a credit card who knows what happens when the mothership sucks up that cash and filters it through various middlemen before finally (if ever) getting to the person who provided a service to you.
• 40acres 8y ago
  Really disgusting behavior, honestly I think the "gig economy" has the right idea of where we are headed, we are moving to a service / high skill (technology) economy. Gig economy tools combine the best of both worlds, but these exploitative labor practices and low hanging industry targets have got to end.
• jeena 8y ago
  Could someone explain to me what's up with those tips? If I'm doing a job I expect to be paid a specific amount. Tips to me seem like pittance which you would give to someone who at least can't work or something, for services you just pay a normal price which the owner of the place needs to calculate with. I'm often thinking about Mr. Pink in Reservoir Dogs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ he makes the point I'm also trying to make. People should get paid for doing service and not need to rely on pittance of the customers because their bosses don't calculate the real cost of doing business. If it were up to me tips would be forbidden. In Japan (as far as I understand) it's an insult to tip, it's almost like: "This business probably isn't doing well enough to pay you a proper salary, so here's a little something extra."
• usaphp 8y ago
  Why do they even have a “tip” field is beyond me, you already paid for delivery, what do you tip for??!!! And on top they ask you for a tip amount before the service is even performed. Tip is to reward for extra work that server did, what extra work is there in food delivery service? And how do you measure it before you even got the food??
• miaklesp 8y ago
  Just don't tip. Tipping is bullshit. It's company responsibility to set the pricing policy so everyone one gets paid. If they don't pay their workers, it's not my problem.
• anonuser123456 8y ago
  It's almost like working as a contractor for instacart is a crappy job that people should quit doing since it doesn't pencil out financially...
• imtringued 8y ago
  What happens if the tip exceeds the actual cost of the service? If the tip was $11 would they deduct $0.20 from the tip? This is completely absurd.
• ggm 8y ago
  In a context of pushback over casual hire/gig-economy workers and their actual employment status this feels like both egregiously stupid and possibly illegal behaviour, which the company does because its a scofflaw. If its legal its wrong. if its illegal then its wrong both equitably and legally. I can't see in either case how its sustainable business practice to offer gig work, but claim the tip is the pay. I really wish there were penalties reserved for CEO and Board of these startups, which couldn't be passed on to shareholders or customers. Flaying alive feels like it might be about all we've got left. Happy to put on an old crone's clothes and sit below the scaffold knitting, while it happens. Maybe the sans-culottes had a point?
• malandrew 8y ago
  DoorDash does this too.
• skilled 8y ago
  Haha what the fuck? And who was the brilliant mind behind this thinking it would be okay to do this?
• gabrielblack 8y ago
  I'm European, in my country if an employer only try to do something like that go strait to the jail. Now is in progress a process to guarantee to the guys employed in the delivery of food by bike a minimum wage because they was exploited by some companies, but that case isn't distantly comparable to this one. I can't believe this behavior it's tolerated in a civilized nation.
• Rapzid 8y ago
  Uber was great until they introduced tipping, and somehow now we are supposed to tip employees for delivering stuff when the entire business model of the company we are also paying is delivery?! Why are we supposed to tip door dash drivers, but not Amazon delivery drivers or FedEx/UPS/USPS? I refuse to use Door Dash due to the expectation of tipping their employees on top of the super high up-charges and service fee I'm paying FOR DELIVERY. Tipping has ruined this whole new batch of convenience services for me.
• tareqak 8y ago
  Isn’t this similar to what DoorDash (a YC company) is doing? https://notipdoordash.com https://notipdoordash.com These sorts of stories confirm my feelings about tipping that I’ve had all along: tipping is just a way to subsidize employers by pitting employees against customers and guilt-tripping the latter. Follow-up update: Aren't all the gig economy start-ups (Uber/Uber Eats, Lyft, Caviar, Eat24/Yelp, Fiverr etc.) potentially doing the same thing? They are probably exploiting the same loop-hole in whatever set of laws. It might be just a UI update, but I remember seeing a message of the form "our drivers get 100% of their tips" in Uber Eats just yesterday, which is sort of like saying "we are following the law about tips".
  • pfarnsworth 8y ago
    Uber/UberEats drivers get 100% of every tip, that is completely outside the equation for their pay.
    • tareqak 8y ago
      Sorry, that's what I meant: an independent contractor getting 100% of their tips doesn't mean Uber/UberEats hasn't adjusted the amount they pay the contractor.
• danans 8y ago
  FWIW Good Eggs directly states their pro living wage (and no tip necessary) policy on their website: https://help.goodeggs.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007378212-Do-I-have-to-tip-my-Good-Eggs-delivery-driver- https://help.goodeggs.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007378212-Do-... I have no stake in them but it's interesting that they addressed this at all, and well before this instacart controversy.
• sudosteph 8y ago
  I've always wondered why someone hasn't tried to reverse the model on these delivery service apps (postmates, doordash, instacart) Instead of delivery people blindly accepting orders and hoping for the best, the people who are requesting the delivery should have to set a rate at order time and make the full order and destination visible so couriers can decide if it's worth it and make a counter-offer if it's too low to be worth it. If you ever go read what the workers are saying in subreddits for these services, it's clear that the incentives for quick and accurate deliveries just don't line up with the current gig system.
  • dogweather 8y ago
    > the people who are requesting the delivery should have to set a rate at order time That's an interesting idea --- reminds me of e-coins with variable transaction fees. You can offer more if you want people to work on your transaction faster.
• m3kw9 8y ago
  Dick move, instant back lash
• calhoun137 8y ago
  I swear to god I am never going to order from instacart ever again.
• seancaptain 8y ago
  Hi. I'm a Fast Company reporter, and we've been investigating this and many other issues for about a week, including asking Instacart to explain them all. Stay tuned for a full report this week or early next. Thanks, Sean Captain @seancaptain
  • ampersandy 8y ago
    Would love to see the article expanded on with a legal analysis of the situation.
• wiggler00m 8y ago
  Build app to receive tips anonymously. Integrate seamlessly into checkout experience (like Affirm does for micro lending). This could prevent Instacart etc from reducing hourly rate based on tips (because they don't have access to that info).
• caconym_ 8y ago
  This is theft from the customer, who tips with the understanding that it will be extra money in the worker's pocket. Disgusting, reprehensible, and frankly unbelievable. I've never used Instacart and now I never will.
• RoadieRoller 8y ago
  Our team of 5 went to a good restaurant/steak place in LA last week, ate and drank for $300, enjoyed the ambience and ate great food, enjoyed the warmth of the service, spent great time together and tipped $75 Who should the tip go to? - To the owner who spent/spends a fortune running it in LA? - To the chef who catered to our needs without seeing us? - To the person who immediately and happily tended to us everytime we raised our heads and looked around - To the person who cleared the used plates and never let us wanting for crockery - (we tipped the valet guy separately) I wonder what as a customer should I do? How do I know the share goes to all? I cannot pay cash for that amount. I carry barely $5 with me in cash.
  • fencepost 8y ago
    It's been 30 years since I worked in a restaurant, but at that particular place the waitstaff received tips and split them according to some formula. I think busboys got 10%, not sure if or how much went to the bartender or anyone "back of house" in the kitchen. In any case, the owner's revenue is based on the menu pricing; if the owner wants more then the prices get raised. For anyone else, the expectation is likely to be that tips go through the server and are divided from there if they're divided at all. Don't stress too much about tipping the other staff unless someone's gone far above and beyond.
• fuckthecops 8y ago
  I remember interviewing for an engineering role with these guys a few years back. The people I spoke at Instacart were more elitist than any of the other tech companies in SV or SF. They really did think they were the best of the best and had no shame saying it out loud. Great quote from of the lead devs: "We're a team of 10x engineers". Seeing this now only reaffirms my decision to reject their offer. People like that who really believe they are better than others have no moral dilemmas committing disgusting things to those they think less of.
• blaisio 8y ago
  Wow. I'm cancelling my instacart account immediately. They've made so many mistakes in the past, but I liked their app. But this crosses the line by a mile. When I give someone a tip, it's not because I chose to pay more for an order just for fun, it's because I want the worker to get extra. They don't get to charge me a service fee, and ask me to tip, and then not give the worker my service fee. That's just crazy.
  • richardfeynman 8y ago
    I'm also pretty sure that they say that 100% of the tip goes to the driver when you place an order.
    • jld 8y ago
      They probably think the money is fungible. “We gave the driver 100% of the $10 from your tip, and withheld our $10 from their wages.”
• dkd903 8y ago
  LOL. I donot understand this. Everyone is okay in America with restauarant workers in america. so whats the fuss abaout?
• thejerz 8y ago
  This is why I never tip on Prime Now, Instacart, Uber, Lyft, or Postmates: I don't trust them. Show me whatever the price is, and based on that I'll decide whether to use your service today. I'm not interested in voluntarily giving your business money.
• fouc 8y ago
  Perhaps tipping should always bypass the company. If there was a popular 3rd party app for tipping directly to any individual, regardless of where they might be or whether they're working or not, that could actually prevent companies from snooping in on the tips. Even at restaurants.
• pishpash 8y ago
  It's about time tipping died, that's the bottom line. There never was a good outcome to opaque pricing.
• SN76477 8y ago
  Shame on them. The gig economy has so many problems like this it is silly.
• galkk 8y ago
  I've read that similar happens in Guitar Center. Basically, all floor employees salary is commission based. If you don't get enough commission, they will pay you minimal wage but will get rid of you in several months, otherwise your sale commission kind of "fills" your salary until it gets to minimal wage, and only then starts to increase your wage. Won't be surprised if most of retail works in similar way.
• neuralzen 8y ago
  Absolutely crazy. By comparison, Go-Jek in Indonesia ends up paying their scooter delivery workers about about $3-$4 on average per hour (in my experience) depending on traffic, for deliveries (food, shopping, etc). There is also no option to tip in the app, and tipping isn't expected but isn't alien either.
• prvc 8y ago
  Why $.22? Is that the minimum before the tip has an impact on the nominal rate?
• hamilyon2 8y ago
  What I don't understand is why the law in USA allows someone be employed, and by signing some contract thing still count as if she is not employed. In Russia, distinction is clear in law. Do you pay her regularly? I. e. at least one a month? Then she is employee, no matter who says what. I understand less protection for workers, less vacation, less regulation overall, this is all understandable. I don't understand why facts are ignored in favor of words.
  • speedplane 8y ago
    In the U.S., there is a multi-factor test if someone is an employee. Just paying someone regularly isn't enough. You might get a haircut once a month, but your barber clearly isn't an employee. It requires more, like control over their day-to-day actions, if you provide benefits, and several other factors. The Russian law may seem clear, but in reality it's just a stand-in for a more complex analysis.
• wiggler00m 8y ago
  We should tip shoppers with Venmo, Cash App, Paypal, etc, when the shopper delivers. Instacart won't see this transaction and therefore won't reduce their wages. Less convenient. But this policy is unfair.
• dpwm 8y ago
  I wonder what happens if a customer tips more than what Instacart would have paid? I read through the blog post on Medium and the article, but couldn't find any case where the customer had tipped more. Is $0.80 the minimum payment they will make, or will it decrease further – negative?
• chrisacky 8y ago
  What would the worker have received if the customer had tipped $50 on a smaller order? Would Instacart have pocketed the additional $40?
• jerry40 8y ago
  What if a tip amound exceeds a worker's payment amount? Will they demand from the worker to pay?
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• aagha 8y ago
  WTF is going on?! Some engineer somewhere decided or was told: Hey if someone gets a big tip, lets consider that as part of their pay and not pay they what's due. And then they just blindly do it?! I can understand that an engineer might just be following requirements, but _someone_ made that decision--probably a PM, or does this go higher than that? It seems that companies (FB, Google, etc.) are almost going out of their way to be evil! We need the equivalent of a "known to do evil" blacklist: companies and employees known to have been working on specific products/projects should be black-balled: You wrote a VPN to collect information off people's phones? Good luck getting work with another tech company. You wrote/designed functionality to get kids to play games that require money and is hidden from their parents? Screw you. You wrote/designed a feature that said that people should be screwed out of their wage because they got a big tip? F you.
• RoboTeddy 8y ago
  (The following is completely predicated on the truth of the report that a customer tipping $x doesn't result in workers' total compensation being increased by $x) As a YC alum, I'm disgusted to see a YC company behaving like this. Instacart: It shouldn't have to be said, but you don't cheat your customers and workers. Whatever internal rationalization you've developed for this practice is just that — a rationalization. Stop cheating people. If your unit economics are so broken that you can't survive without deceiving and cheating people, then shut down instead.
• seancaptain 8y ago
  Update: Instacart is introducing a $3 minimum on all jobs, in the wake of the 80-cent debacle. https://www.fastcompany.com/90300962/reeling-from-algorithm-glitch-instacart-institutes-3-minimum-fee-for-drivers https://www.fastcompany.com/90300962/reeling-from-algorithm-...