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Sedans Aren’t Dead, American Sedans Are
- nrjames 8y agoIt's odd that this article doesn't mention Tesla.
- olliej 8y agoUnclear if this is a joke - tesla’s cost much more than most sedans - the market for most us sedans is not the same.
- nrjames 8y agoNot a joke. Tesla is an American car company shipping sedans. The mid-range Model 3 is getting lower in price. While it might not be price-comparable to some of the others mentioned in the article, it's still an American sedan.
- rconti 8y agoAverage Transaction Price for "light vehicles" (which seems to include luxury sedans, luxury SUVs, pickups, etc) was was $36,270 in January 2018.[1] It's not nothing, but a ~$46k medium range Model 3 is not so terribly far from that, and in fact hits that on the nose if you manage to buy one in the next 14 hours in California (or a state with even better state-level incentives like Colorado). :) (Tesla is 'promising' delivery before end of 2018 if you order in November; I only know this because my in-laws are looking at it right now). [1] https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-Rise-Nearly-4-Percent-For-January-2018-On-Shifting-Sales-Mix-According-To-Kelley-Blue-Book https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2018-02-01-Average-New-Car-Prices-...
- olliej 8y agoThe ASP for light vehicles is 36k, when including a bunch of expensive vehicle classes, which should indicate what the average low end sedan costs to bring the overall ASP price down: * ASP for pickup: 47 fullsize, 32 "mid" size * ASP for an SUV: 60k * ASP for luxury SUVs 44k for a compact (wtf is a compact SUV?) up to 80k. * ASP subcompact SUV is 24k Vs. the low-end cars: * 15k for a Kia Rio * 19k for a Toyota Corolla * 12-17k for a Nissan Versa * Honda low end 19k, the top end plugin: 33k * Hyundai 16k-22k * Mitsubishi 14.5k * Ford Fiesta 14.2k, taurus: 27.8k * Chevy cruze: 17-24k * Buick starts at 25k This ignores compacts/hatchbacks which seem to be on average around 5k less. So a Tesla isn't a few grand more expensive. It's 2-2.5 times more expensive.
- jandrese 8y agoBut the replacement the US car companies are offering are SUVs, which are more expensive than the sedans they are replacing. This seems more like the companies saying "What products have the biggest profit margins? Lets just make those." This is fine so long as the government is willing to say "no" when the next oil crunch happens and people start scrambling for efficient or electric cars instead of big trucks and SUVs and the big 3 find themselves in trouble in exactly the same way the did last time. Or they'll just blame it on the unions and move everything to China.
- jddaigle 8y agoPlus Teslas (at least the S) aren't really traditional sedans. They're liftbacks (hatch with a sloping rear window) plus they have a "frunk". And they adhere to the "distinctive styling as signaling" rule of hybrids.
- thatGuy6 8y agoNo it's not. They're mentioning companies that can actually ship cars.
- wolf550e 8y agoTesla ships more Model 3s than Ford ships Fusions: http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-fusion/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-fusion/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-3/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-...
- cmrdporcupine 8y agoIt's not an article about luxury cars.
- rconti 8y agoThey clearly meant "big 3 automaker sedans". 2 American cars sit in my driveway; a BMW Z3 M Coupe that was built in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and a Tesla Model 3 sedan that was built across the bay in Fremont, California. Though I will say, I generally hate the sedan form factor (from a styling and practicality standpoint), and of the ~10 or so cars my wife and I have owned, the Tesla is the first sedan.
- gwbas1c 8y agoIt really should, because the article states that US automakers are going to concentrate on electric vehicles.
- cmrdporcupine 8y agoThey killed the Chevy Volt, the only interesting sedan in GM's entire line-up. Incredibly short-sighted. Love it more than any car I've ever driven, despite it lacking in many of the 'creature comforts' of other cars. Fun to drive with excellent acceleration, I drive it 91% electric, and when I flip over to gas it's an excellent performing highly efficient hybrid. Sad. EDIT: I should add that really the Volt is not a 'sedan', but a 'liftback'. Far more utility out of the trunk than a typical sedan. My medium sized dog even fits back there.
- lisper 8y agoEven sadder: the Bolt is the affordable electric car that the Tesla Model 3 promised to be but isn't. And yet no one is excited about the Bolt. In fact, probably most people are not even aware that the Bolt exists. Sad indeed.
- cmrdporcupine 8y agoThey made odd choices on the body styling. It's a Chevy Trax but squished horizontally. And the naming sucks. The drivetrain is amazing. They also just don't seem to want to make enough of them or ship them to markets where people want them. Canada was starved for inventory all last last year. None went to Europe. Asia, where they'd make a lot of sense, got only a smattering. And they don't seem to be improving on this. The fate of the Volt and Bolt together makes me entirely skeptical of GM's claims to making a transition to EV production. I used to be a big advocate of GM's EV designs -- they're technically excellent -- but I don't think I can get behind the company at all. I'm somewhat tempted to sell my Volt and get a Honda Clarity PHEV.
- rconti 8y agoAh, the Honda Clarity, the only vehicle uglier than any hybrid or electric that Chevy or Toyota can muster. (I rather like the styling of the Bolt, actually)
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
- esotericn 8y agoThe car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational. It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. The same follows across the categories (e.g. the article's specific focus on sedans). A whole bunch of mid-market brands seemingly exist for no reason other than for some groups of not-wealthy people to waste money in an attempt to impress other groups of not-wealthy people. e.g. the German cars which seem to exist as some sort of indicator that someone can afford to burn money maintaining a depreciating asset. It's basically the (non-smart) watch market, right. You wear a Casio-level watch if you don't care, a Rolex-level watch if you're signalling, and other stuff is basically an enthusiast market.
- rock_hard 8y agoWell, this assumes that it’s all about TCO or status. But have you ever driven a Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Audi? The driving expierence is superior to everything else! Tesla gets close...but I can’t think of any other brand that does.
- esotericn 8y agoRight, that's the enthusiast market.
- nickik 8y agoI bet that you could not pick a BMW or Audi from equally priced car from other companies.
- Domenic_S 8y agoI didn't downvote you, but I bet I could [pick them out]. They just value different things compared to american counterparts, especially in older models. I (regrettably used to) own a 2002 BMW M3 -- relatively cheap to buy, and compared to anything else in its year or price category was unequivocally better as a "driver's car". But, many people don't really care about a driver's car -- they index higher on other things like electronics, safety, styling, etc. That's fine, it's only preference, but for raw performance nothing similar could compare. My experience is that a lot of people equate "expensive car" or "german car" with "nice car", and for them "nice car" means something specific other than raw performance numbers, like comfort, safety, features, or Consumer Reports ranking. For enthusiasts, it means something totally different, and those qualities are indexed on by BMW/Merc/Audi (and some rare American and Japanese exceptions to be fair).
- bitrrrate 8y agoA key passage from the article. "Once Americans began driving Hondas and Toyotas, they discovered that these cars had a lot more going for them than just gas mileage — they broke down infrequently, could last for hundreds of thousands of miles, and were even fun to drive." If the US sedan makers can't compete then they should deprecate those cars. Why make something that people aren't buying? Cars are too expensive these days to have to pay for frequent maintenance or fit-and-finish issues. Never mind the fact that "American" cars are not as American as they used to be and the Camry isn't distinctively Japanese.
- virmundi 8y agoThe sad thing is that American automakers can't, even if that is they won't, make good cars. I don't get it. Why can't they make a fuel pump that lasts 100k miles? It's obviously possible since Japan does it. What's holding us back? Is the engineers? Is it the labor assembling things? Why can't we compete? Management being stupid and chasing this quarter's numbers above all else?
- WorldMaker 8y agoThe US stock market? How do you plan for purchase horizons of ten to fifteen years and very little maintenance operations in that window, when your shareholders only care about what you did for them for a quarter of a year at a time?
- ip26 8y agoTotally speculating, but from the outside it seems like stagnation & resistance to change. The Corvette still uses leaf springs. All three of the Big Three hung on to SOHC & other relics for far longer than Japan. I also remember as a shade-tree mechanic, Japanese engines were always precise, intricate, and sharp (suggesting computer design & milling) while the Fords of the same decade were not, and frequently the arrangements were irrational. Rangers needed the intake manifold removed to access the spark plugs. This always suggested to me more casting & hand drawing. American automakers seem to make some great stuff when they are actually pushing the envelope- the EcoBoost line I hear is very solid, and the aluminum frame in the F150 seems to be doing great (notice: lots of FUD when it launched, silence ever since). The Volt & Bolt have had many great things said about them. Whether it's conservative engineers, or tight purses, or unrealistic schedules, or even just myopic American Exceptionalism, I do not know.
- all2 8y agohttp://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html The above contains relevant numbers. I'm seeing a lot of cars on the road that fit the wheel-base of a sedan, but are larger. Here are a few models that come to mind: Hyundai Kona [0], BMW X2 [1], Nissan LEAF (though this is an all electric offering) [2], and I'm sure there are more. My point is, there are vehicles that are roughly the same size that fill the needs of people who would have purchased a sedan. I'm guessing that if we refactored the numbers in terms of wheel-base and interior volume we'd see people are buying similar wheel-based cars with more interior volume. [0] https://www.hyundaiusa.com/kona/index.aspx https://www.hyundaiusa.com/kona/index.aspx [1] https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/x-models/x2/sports-activity-coupe/overview.html https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/x-models/x2/sports-activity-... [2] https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html [edit] AND it looks like I missed a crucial piece of the title, so here are some 'murican cars that fit the description above: Chevy Trax [3], Buick Encore [4]. [3] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/trax-compact-suv https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/trax-compact-suv [4] https://www.buick.com/suvs/encore-small-luxury-suv https://www.buick.com/suvs/encore-small-luxury-suv [/edit]
- matthewmcg 8y agoAgreed. Another way to personalize these data is this observation: 10 years ago, my friends and family all drove cars with separate trunks. Now none of us do.
- njarboe 8y agoAny article on why US manufactures of vehicles focus on trucks instead of cars and does not mention the chicken tax [1] has not really done their homework. In 1965 a 25% tax was put on imported trucks due to a trade fight with Europe on chicken imports. This 25% tax is still in effect today. SUVs were also put in the truck category for some time and it is not clear which truck like vehicles will be taxed. This is why almost all trucks and SUVs made by non-US companies are manufactured in the US. Profit margins on US made trucks have been much larger than autos for a long time(mostly due to this tax) and I imagine that all the marketing of the US auto companies over 40 years to get people to buy them instead of sedans has had quite an effect. Once a large number of people are driving tall trucks and SUVs, driving a car is much less comfortable, as you can't see past the truck in front of you from a low sedan. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- jonknee 8y agoI think cheaper gas and long commutes has way more of an effect for Americans preferring larger vehicles than fewer foreign trucks being available.
- njarboe 8y agoCorrect, Americans have preferred larger cars for a long time. American cars in the 50' and 60's were quite large, especially luxury brands. For families, the large station wagon with a huge engine to tow a boat on the weekend and weighing over 2 tons were not uncommon[1]. Americans preferred cars over trucks and I image would have continued to do so if a huge amount of marketing over decades was not used to convince people to buy vehicles that were protected from foreign competition with a 25% import tax. [1]https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1965/787220/ford_country_squire_station_wagon_thunderbird_special_v-8_cruise-o-matic.html https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1965/787220/ford_coun...
- Gibbon1 8y agoAlso for a very long time trucks got to skate on emissions and safety regulations.
- ed_balls 8y agoSedans Aren't Dead, the market has segmented into sedans and liftbacks/4-door coupe. See BMW 3 and 4 series. It's p much the same car. People prefer for 4 because it's a bit more practical, but 3 series has large marketing so BMW maintain 2 models.
- penglish1 8y agoThe article says that Americans never really regained trust in American manufactured sedans since the 60s/70s. But then doesn't explain.. who exactly was buying all those sedans.. while not trusting them? There definitely were a LOT of American sedan sales for a while there.
- sjg007 8y agoFederal, state, and local governments. Taxis. Ford Focus did well too.
- war1025 8y agoI grew up in rural Iowa, and the concept of buying something not made by the big three was pretty exotic. The dealerships weren't around, so people didn't even consider them as an option. Now most of the small town dealerships have gone under as part of the restructuring from the recession, so people are going to cities to buy cars anyway now. When they get to the city, there are dealerships for the foreign car makers, so I'd guess people end up more likely to buy one.
- 40acres 8y agoI'm a city boy so mind the ignorance, but who is buying up all the trucks? I get the allure of a nice SUV/crossover, my next car will probably be one since I think the space is useful for when thinking about starting a family, but a truck never seemed that feasible for non-commercial use.
- bunderbunder 8y agoTBH, I think a lot of it is just about presenting an image. I grew up in a rural area, and a lot of the trucks in town rarely carried anything of note in the bed, because their owners didn't want the paint to get scratched.
- projektfu 8y agoI see lots of pickup trucks (which are common in urban Atlanta) slowing to 3mph before a speed bump that can easily be taken at 12 in a sedan. It's obvious that the truck can handle the bump with alacrity, but the drivers are very cautious about risking the slightest damage.
- stonogo 8y agoThe suspension is much stiffer in an underloaded pickup. That speed bump will launch your head into the ceiling if you take it too fast.
- mikeash 8y agoI wonder when the press will realize that there are not just three American car makers anymore. Looking at the best selling vehicles in the US for October 2018, there’s an American sedan in the top 20, but it’s not made by the Big Three.
- peferron 8y agoJapanese sedans are dead too. It'll just take a bit longer. Sedans simply do not offer enough utility or fun per dollar to stay relevant. In France, where I'm from, sedans have been utterly dead from as long as I can remember. People just buy hatchbacks instead. Sedans stayed alive in the USA thanks to wider roads, larger parking spots, and a persistent notion that hatchbacks are tiny cheap econoboxes that you wouldn't want to be seen in (which, to be fair, is often the case, even though there are very good hatchbacks like the VW Golf). CUVs and SUVs have overcome this stigma and are set to accomplish what hatchbacks failed to do in the US market: kill sedans. I expect very few people to go back to buying sedans after having owned CUVs or SUVs, unless it's a somewhat niche sedan like a BMW M3, Mercedes S-Class, Tesla Model 3, etc.
- decebalus1 8y ago> Japanese sedans are dead too. It'll just take a bit longer. > Sedans simply do not offer enough utility or fun per dollar to stay relevant. In France, where I'm from, sedans have been utterly dead from as long as I can remember. People just buy hatchbacks instead. That's one side of the story and France is just a fraction of the market for sedans. The road configurations, parking styles, etc.. probably favors hatchbacks but that's not the case in Canada (for example) and that definitely doesn't mean that sedans will be dead. Where I'm from, it's the same as France for reasons related to utility and fuel consumption but even so, people who wanted 'fun' went for the German large sedan or for the Japanese small but souped-up sedan.
- peferron 8y agoI agree that France is not very representative of the general automobile market, but in Canada for example I would expect most households to start buying a CUV or SUV as their first car (possibly with AWD). The point is that a classic three-box four-door sedan is not super practical as your only car, and I believe that's true for almost all markets. Americans still bought sedans because the alternatives (wagons, minivans, hatchbacks) were seen as uncool, but CUVs and SUVs don't have this problem at all. So, yes, sedans will still exist but with a fraction of their previous market share, and in this sense sedans will be "dead" (since that's how the article uses the word).
- favorited 8y ago> Of course it doesn’t hurt that most Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are made in the American South. And it's not just Japan. My 2 most recent "foreign" sedans, one Hyundai and another VW – were manufactured in the US.
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- bwanab 8y agoI can't help but to believe that GM and Ford are making the same mistake they made in the early 70s and the 90s. Piling on the big cars when gas prices are low, then watch their share of the market collapse when gas prices get higher as they always have in the past. To GM's credit they claim they'll be putting a lot of the short term savings into EVs and AVs, but time will tell.
- amyjess 8y agoIf I ever end up in a position where being able to drive and owning a car is feasible for me, I'm going to get a Kia Stinger GT. It tickles my fancy in a way that no other 4/5-door car below $60k does. I can't think of a single American car that even comes close, and good European cars are too expensive (I mean, I wouldn't turn down an Audi S7 if someone gave one to me... but I'd never be able to afford one either). (of course, there is my pipe dream of importing a mid-'90s Toyota Chaser Tourer V from Japan, but I know that's a pipe dream) SUVs are a total hard pass for me. I have a bad ankle, and when it's flaring up, there are almost no SUVs I can climb into, not even most crossovers. I have a friend with a 2018 Equinox, and getting into and out of his vehicle was physically painful. The only crossover I've been able to deal with when my ankle is acting up is my coworker's Jeep Cherokee (and from some Googling, it appears the 2WD models of the Cherokee have the lowest ground clearance of any crossover sold in the US). Because I use Lyft all the time, I have something of an interesting perspective, because I've ridden in a much wider variety of cars than someone who just drives their own car most of the time. I've been in a lot of different sedans and SUVs, and I know what I like and what makes me extremely uncomfortable. I tend to cancel on pickup trucks nowadays when I get one on Lyft. Even when my ankle isn't painfully flaring up, entering and especially exiting one makes my ankle feel like it's about to collapse. Crossovers aren't quite as bad, so I don't cancel on them unless my ankle is flaring up, but sedans and hatchbacks are far more comfortable. I'm also afraid of heights, The elevated seating position in SUVs really bothers me. It's not high enough to completely induce a panic response in me, but it's high enough that I'm constantly on edge and nervous the entire time I'm in the vehicle. The upright seating position really makes me uncomfortable. This is because A) SUV seats are elevated off the ground more than sedan seats and B) the seat bottoms are level in SUVs but tilted back in sedans. I cannot stand sitting upright. I am very uncomfortable sitting unless I'm tilted backwards, and I prefer having my legs splayed forwards instead of hanging down. When I get an SUV on Lyft, I pray it's a fully-loaded model (or a luxury brand) with a 6-way or better 8-way power adjustable passenger seat. The first thing I do when I get one of these is to lower the seat as much as possible and then if it's 8-way adjustable, I tilt the bottom of the seat all the way down. With an 8-way seat adjusted the way I want it to, it feels like riding in a sedan, but SUVs with 8-way seats are extremely expensive and I only see them on Lyft very rarely. Also, I despise how SUVs are designed to expose valuables to thieves. Sedans have a trunk area that's not visible through any window. If you put valuables in the back of an SUV, they will get stolen because any chucklefuck can see what you have back there and perform a quick smash-and-grab. It's for this reason that unlike most other SUV-haters I'm not fond of station wagons, either. I do love me some liftbacks, though (like the aforementioned Kia Stinger GT), as liftbacks tend to have shelves that slide into place when the hatch is closed, and they serve to obscure the cargo from view (and it honestly pisses me off when someone makes a liftback that doesn't come with a shelf, because it defeats the whole point of having a liftback).
- chaoticmass 8y agoHow is it that the cycle of cheap gas = people buy gas guzzling SUVs, gas goes up = people go back to gas sipping cars, keeps repeating? I swear in my lifetime I've seen this cycle repeat three times now.
- madeuptempacct 8y agoIn defense of American cars - the Corvette can't be beat for the price, period.
- mobilefriendly 8y agoMy hard-working parents bought a new Ford during my childhood, in the 1970s. The car was a lemon that broke down a lot, they hated that car. I've never forgiven Ford either, in our extended family today there are no Ford owners and never will be.
- slowmovintarget 8y agoI looked at a Fusion a few years ago before deciding to buy an Accord. There was a $10K price differential in favor of the Honda. This was mainly because all American sedans at the same price point had far lower reliability scores and were much smaller cars. There were no "American" sedans other than the Fusion worth considering for reliability and non-shoebox size. The third factor was resale value. I simply got more for my money buying the Honda. I wasn't the least bit interested in an SUV or pickup truck.
- gwbas1c 8y agoIt's also customer service: I bought a Japanese vehicle that ended up being a lemon. The dealerships were generally polite to me when I brought it in for repairs. (Against my better judgement) I bought an American plug-in hybrid that randomly stops charging. The dealership is flat out rude and constantly blames my charger. (The charger worked fine for 4 years with my old Leaf)
- JKCalhoun 8y ago> Meanwhile, the American automakers raced to come out with their own small, fuel-efficient sedans. But their products were often shoddy, poorly designed and technologically deficient I wonder if this wasn't intentional. That is, were there bean counters at Ford etc. that were worried that sales of the small sedans would cannibalize sales of their higher-margin autos? Seems to be the way of things in the past four decades or so....
- jddaigle 8y agoIt takes years to bring a new car to market. And in the early 70s the Big 3 had zero, zilch, nada in the way of platforms and powertrains suitable for small fuel efficient cars. So the first generations were built in a hurry, and to a price, because the economy was in the toilet. And it showed!
- nradov 8y agoI've purchased several sedans before but will probably never buy another one. Sedans are really miserable for those of us who enjoy outdoor sports. Sure it's possible to use a sedan to transport equipment for scuba diving, cycling, kayaking, skiing, etc but other vehicle styles are far more comfortable and practical.
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- loph 8y agoI've driven a Chevy Impala. It drove OK, but it looked and felt really cheap inside. I've owned Chrysler, Chevy, and Ford. It was the Ford product -- that I bought new -- that drove me (in many senses) to the Honda dealer. I've bought 7 new Hondas since. Why? Every American car I had owned got at least one tow-truck ride to get repaired. The Ford had to be towed to the dealer for service _three_ times. The Hondas have never left me stranded.
- kenhwang 8y agoAmerican sedans are dead because the Big 3 American automakers never invested in making sedans. They always borrowed tech from other companies. Just about every Ford sedan platform and engine was built on top of Mazda or Volvo designs. It's not surprising that Ford lost access to those designs when it sold off Volvo and then Mazda. Similarly, GM designs were from Suzuki and Opel. They've been divesting from Suzuki and Opel for a better part of a decade now. It seems like they also reached the point where they've been cut off from platforms and engines. Chrysler luckily still has Fiat to borrow car platforms and engines from. They also have partnerships with Hyundai group. So I think they'll keep making sedans, just because they still have access to that tech. The American sedan is being killed off because they were never American in the first place.
- jddaigle 8y ago> American sedans are dead because the Big 3 American automakers never invested in making sedans. They always borrowed tech from other companies. In the 80s a lot of US-Foreign partnerships sprang up as domestic manufacturers scrambled to develop competitive products to compete against the Japanese. But GM had an ownership stake in Opel from the 1960s IIRC (they just recently sold it to the French PSA group) and Ford has been experimenting with bringing over cars designed by Ford Europe since the 80s (look up Merkur). Chrysler is really no more; the shots are called by FIAT and aside from Jeep and Dodge trucks everything else is an import (the Jeep Renegade and the FIAT 500x are the same under the skin and are built in the same factory in Italy). Ford made a big bet on "global cars" in the 90s, and we see the benefits of it today. The Escape and the EcoSport were both originally designed for Europe. GM and Ford did learn to make great cars for the US market, but too late. The Impala & CT6, for example, are on a platform designed for the US/China market (no way the European market would want a car that big that isn't an S-Class, 7-series, or A8). And they're great cars. But as the original article said consumers demand for big American sedans has been in decline for almost 50 years. Ford/GM can't seem to stop skating to where the puck just was.
- kenhwang 8y agoThe Ford Escape might be designed for Europe, but it's still designed on top of Mazda designed platform for the Mazda6, primarily using the Duratec/EcoBoost inline-4 engine that's based off a Mazda MZR engine design. EcoSport uses a Ford designed engine, but it's still using the Mazda2 platform. Ford's been partnered with Mazda from 1974-2015 which predates and outlasted Merkur. The Imapla is on GM's Epsilon platform, which was originally designed by Opel. CT6 is on a completely homegrown platform, which is probably why it's the last car in GM's discontinuation lineup to be discontinued. They may have had platforms that were designed for the US market, but they weren't the designer.
- mark-r 8y agoThe last American sedan I owned was a 1974 Dodge Dart. Terrible car, but my sister's 1980 Dodge Aspen was much worse. I've looked at American cars in the intervening years but I haven't seen anything to change my initial bad impression. They always seem like they're a step below in both form and function.
- ksec 8y agoWhat's the difference? Sedans are dead in America, else where Saloon lives on.
- purplezooey 8y agoI still like my Ford Tempo