12 ms·

Microsoft now has the best hardware lineup in the industry

133 points by owenwil 8y ago

larrik 8y ago
But do they run Linux?
- Canadauni 8y ago
  I was running Ubuntu mate off of an SD card on my surface pro 3 for a couple months and it worked well until the card corrupted. There is a pretty active community at https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/
- VirgilShelton 8y ago
  Yes. You can install the Linux subsystem see https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 Or you can install a Linux virtual machine with Hyper-V on Windows 10 see https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-windows-10-using-hyper-v https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-windows-1...
  - ognarb 8y ago
    'Linux subsystem' don't include the linux Kernel, just some gnu tools.
    - hellcow 8y ago
      That's a bit disingenuous. It includes the entire userspace of whatever distro you want.
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        > userspace So, not Linux.
    - jamesgeck0 8y ago
      As a reimplementation of the kernel APIs on top of the NT kernel, it's not the Linux kernel, but it is more than just some GNU tools. In theory, eventually nearly any Linux application should be able to run on WSL.
    - _wmd 8y ago
      I daresay the Ubuntu userspace WSL ships with absolutely eclipses the kernel in terms of lines of code. For all intents and purposes it's another Linux distro, essentially with just one or two core packages swapped out. Excluding drivers, documentation and non-x86 arch code, Linux is "only" 173mb of uncompressed source (39mb gzipped). The Debian source repository is 103GB compressed, or, put another way, the replaced code amounts to about 0.03% of what makes up Debian.
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        This might be true but what does it matter? It would in theory be totally possible with enough work to make Ubuntu run on the FreeBSD kernel, does that mean FreeBSD is Linux?
        _wmd 8y ago
        Turning that on its head, if you removed all of userspace and just left the kernel, would it be truthful to call what remains Linux? I'd say in common parlance that is what's called "the Linux kernel", and what people mean when they say Linux more thoroughly refers to the work of distributions than it has anything to do with the kernel Linux of the early 00s was popularized on a platform of "Linux is about freedom, Linux is about choice". At least one half of that is entirely due to the distributions.
        umanwizard 8y ago
        You're right from a user perspective, sure. From a programmer's perspective, you are writing a program which interacts with the world by making system calls to the kernel. So the kernel is fundamentally more relevant than the fact that the system is running Wayland and comes with LibreOffice.
    - scardine 8y ago
      The Linux Subsystem for Windows is good enough for my software development needs - the Docker Engine does not run in WSL but you can tell the Linux docker client to use the Windows server by setting an environment variable: export DOCKER_HOST=localhost:2375
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        Okay, what is your point? Whether it's good enough for your needs is unrelated to whether it's Linux.
        scardine 8y ago
        The point is that unless you are fiddling with the kernel, a Windows laptop with WSL makes for a great workstation for software developers. Even if I only develop for Linux, for me it is either a Mac or Windows on the desktop (my pet peeve with Linux on the desktop is the several counterintuitive paste buffers).
  - shmerl 8y ago
    The question really is about Linux proper, not about Linux subsystem or VMs. Can it run Linux on the hardware itself, without jumping through lock-in hoops and other hiccups?
    - raesene9 8y ago
      People have and you can install Linux distros directly onto surface hardware, but personally I wouldn't recommend it. If you want Linux hardware get something that's designed to be shipped with it , so in mainstream land a XPS13 Developer edition or if want something from a vendor focused on Linux System76 or Purism. That said for many "linux" use cases, WSL works just fine. I use it a lot for developer/ssh use cases. Also Windows 10 Hyper-V now has better support for Linux guests so things like clipboards and shared drives can work more smoothly.
      - shmerl 8y ago
        Sure, I wouldn't recommend it either, just trying to understand the level of compatibility it has. I prefer to assemble my own desktop systems, so hardware selection is a different process in such case. As for laptops, I'd go for something with Ryzen+Vega APU. Purism doesn't offer such options.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > Yes. You can install the Linux subsystem So the answer is 'no, it cannot run linux' then?
  - ddorian43 8y ago
    TLDR: No.
- ognarb 8y ago
  Some friend had to compile a custom kernel, to be able to run linux. But Microsoft love Linux.
- frebord 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    That is not linux.
- kbumsik 8y ago
  Why not? I use a Surface Pro 3 and I have installed Ubuntu, Fedora, and Arch and they works well without any kernel fix. The drivers for the Surface hardware are getting mainline recently so you need to make sure you install latest Linux distributions. (for example, don’t install old Ubuntu 16.04 LTS.) In case of Surface Book, which has very unusual hardware configurations, it has problems with Nvidia dGPU but mostly works well: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_2 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_...
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    I had my Surface Pro 2 dual booting. I still hated the device and eventually sold it, replacing it with an MSI. But in response to the questions, a Surface is just a standard PC with UEFI, so as long as all the hardware has kernel support, it should boot up fine.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
It's impressively broad and consistent. Well done, MS. Surprising what a software company can do with hardware ;)
- mc32 8y ago
  The one thing the Dells of the world have over the MSFTs and AAPLs of the world is choice in configurability. That said, for home users their portable computer lineup makes sense.
  - ppeetteerr 8y ago
    Maybe too much configuration? It's not clear what the value prop is of the Inspiron line versus the XPS line and the Inspiron line has 20 base models.
adpirz 8y ago
> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air testify to the validity of this statement? I am dreading the day I need to upgrade my 2014 MBP, I'm just not compelled by the Touch Bar Macs and the tax they add to the new lineup, but I still hear horror stories about BSOD, bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to return to far less.
- nagi2k4 8y ago
  I use a MBP at work and just bought a Surface Book 2 to use for side projects. It's everything I want a MBP to be, good battery life (you can go almost a full day on a single charge), a touch screen that works exceedingly well, and function keys that are...keys. Using the stylus also changes your workflow, instead of screen shotting, opening in preview, and annotating, you just kind of draw on the screen and share the image. Only major downside I've run into is that there do not seem to be any native terminals for Windows that even come close to rivaling iTerm 2. Cmdr is decent, but has some weirdness around colors and ligatures; Hyper is also decent, but has some rough edges. Suspect that'll change as more devs start needing decent *nix environments to develop on.
  - jamesgeck0 8y ago
    The terminal situation will hopefully improve shortly; Microsoft just recently overhauled their console API with a backwards compatible API that behaves much closer to how *NIX works.
  - matthewaveryusa 8y ago
    not native, and assuming you use the terminal to shell into other devices -- Have you used mobaxterm? I think it's pretty great
  - phowat 8y ago
    I second this, I haven't found a Windows terminal that comes close to being as comfortable to use as iTerm, or even Terminal.app for that matter.
elboru 8y ago
>One final thought: the biggest point of discussion around these new devices is the lack of USB-C on modern devices. While I agree with this point, I suspect that the decision was made because consumers outside of our industry simply don't care, and the transition period sucks -- dongles galore and little to show for it. Well it's not only that they don't care, they just don't know yet. But they will care and know after they get new gadgets then they'll start wondering why they need adaptors or different chargers for their computers. That argument was fine with the previous models, but in 2018 all new gadgets use USB-C and that will be the norm from now on. I was thinking on getting one of their products, but this really is a turn off for me, since if I buy a computer today I expect to use it for at least 5 years (like my current 2013 MacBook Pro) and I don't see myself carrying around adapters in 2023.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  The omission of USB-C and Thunderbolt ports also means that Microsoft's entire lineup is incompatible with eGPU enclosures, which is unfortunate.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- thrower123 8y ago
  USB-C ports are an active negative for me. I do not care to have them at all - I still don't own a single device that would use a USB-C port, while I have mountains of USB-A devices that will last for a length of time between 5 more years or until the earth is engulfed by the sun. I also like having dedicated power and display ports (HDMI-out is a requirement for the foreseeable future) as well, which are obvious and cannot have anything else stuffed into them.
  - jdmichal 8y ago
    Not to mention that a separate power port allows Microsoft to continue their magnetic power adapter, who's passing in Apple design is still oft maligned... And the Surface Book 2 does have a USB-C connector and can even charge off of it.
bengale 8y ago
I hope this means I get to watch the same guys buy another bunch of surface hardware and then sell it a few months later and sheepishly return to their MacBooks. Edit: Hit a sore spot I see.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace of privacy. I think this matters to more high-end consumers than many people realise. If Microsoft deployed features that made their devices (and culture) convincingly impenetrable, I’d switch.
- danieldk 8y ago
  The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace of privacy. But so do Linux and BSD. A stellar laptop with good Linux support may be enough for me to jump ship. I have been a Mac user since 2007, but it is clear that Apple does not really care about the Mac anymore. They will keep the Mac alive to continue to take the revenue and to have an iOS development machine. The Mac Mini has gone downhill since the 2012 model, the MacBook Pro has been quite bad since the 2016 (I have one and dislike it), the MacBook Air is great as it ever was, but is effectively early 2010s technology when it comes to the screen. On the software side, they are not really fostering the Mac ISV ecosystem anymore. macOS is still great, because Apple was so far ahead when they stopped caring (2012 or so). But the great stagnation has already gone on for half a decade or so. I am not a Windows user, but at least Microsoft cares about their Surface lineup.
  - ktta 8y ago
    There's System76 and Dell's new Ubuntu laptops. The problem just might be about Linux support in general
    - Arbalest 8y ago
      I would really love a go to for this, but System76 are still bound by what Clevo makes. Lots of it just isn't that interesting. Clevo, from what I see, is a specs first company, but I think we're a bit beyond that now. I'm finding myself more and more interested in battery life, weight, and a good keyboard. This is already hard enough to find in laptops as is, let alone in Clevo's range edit: I tried Dell's keyboard on the XPS and immediately disliked it. I don't think the developer ed would have different hardware in this respect.
yoodenvranx 8y ago
Are they still almost impossible to repair? I remember that iFixit gave the previous generation a 1/10 when it came to repairability.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I thought it was a 0/10. The ones with the felt surface required tearing apart the entire unit in a totally non-repairable way. The laptops have actual bodies and you should be able to take them apart. I'd wait until Dave2D does a review as he almost always includes opening the laptop.
MrEfficiency 8y ago
I really like my windows 10 set up, it took me a few weeks to make it perfect by: >Swapping my HDD with a SSD >Fresh install of windows, removing the crapware that came with my laptop And its incredible, I have about 7 chrome windows with 30 tabs open, sublime, Virtualbox, VS code, heidiSQL, excel, calculator, folders, paint, snipping tool, and often more open at the same time. I can remote into my ubuntu server and get all of those benefits. What is the competition? Apple who costs 3x more? Linux desktop which requires the extensive use of Terminal to function at Window's expectations? I want to see someone knock M$ off their OS throne, but that is more of an unnecessary fantasy than a real pain.
dakom 8y ago
I enjoy having windows as a machine for gaming and hacking, but WSL feels slow. Simple things like compiling and running watchers/servers for local changes. What's the recommended approach for (non-visual-studio) coding larger projects? Install Linux on another partition? Use native binaries and forget about WSL? Fwiw I like working in NeoVim and it's been great in WSL-terminal, overall I'm happy with that route - but the slowness is annoying...
- tutysara 8y ago
  Yes even things like git are comparitively slow on wsl. Emacs in windows is also slow, haven't found a solution to this.
  - mattigames 8y ago
    Why would you use git on wsl when the project itself has released binaries for Windows?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- devxpy 8y ago
  Keep calm and install solus ;)
- mattigames 8y ago
  For watchers and servers I use native nodejs/gulp/webpack (no WSL), apache and for code edition I'm more than happy with Sublime Text with a bunch of plugins.
dman 8y ago
Wish Microsoft fixed the following two things a. Fix IO overheads - things like cloning git repositories, copying directories with several thousands of small files, compilation are all much slower on Windows. b. Write a proper terminal.
- boterock 8y ago
  proper terminal APIs are coming in w10 october update, so then we will see how a real win10 terminal would work, and not just another cmd reskin as it has always been...
  - dman 8y ago
    What about IO? I half suspect its the file notification apis that cause the slowness (since disabling antivirus seems to help a fair amount) but would love to hear more from people in the know. What are the things standing between how things are now and matching linux on the time it takes to git clone a large repo + compile it.
jhare 8y ago
I'm sure their lineup has improved. My Thinkpad Carbon X1? My cold dead hands is where you'll find that, not some Surface nonsense.
TwoBit 8y ago
Does Microsoft hardware have a decent trackpad, unlike all other PC laptops? My MacBook trackpad is great and I'm baffled as to why PCs can't replicate it.
- coder543 8y ago
  Windows trackpads in mid-range or better laptops have been every bit as good as their Mac equivalent for several years now, in my opinion. Unless you think Force Touch is something desirable on a trackpad, in which case you'll be disappointed. Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed by its floppy keyboard or tiny trackpad. A Lenovo X1 Carbon, on the other hand, is just incredible.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    > Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed by its floppy keyboard I agree, but only as far as the Surface Pro/Go are concerned. The Surface Book and Surface Laptop have no such issues, and have a very good keyboard feel. I don't currently recommend a Surface Pro or Go for that reason. I will happily recommend the Book or Surface Laptop however.
    - coder543 8y ago
      I agree, I definitely meant to refer only to the Surface Pro. I wish the Surface Laptop had USB-C, and I'm not a fan of how expensive the Surface Book is, but I recognize the Surface Book might be awesome for certain people.
- amf12 8y ago
  Surfacebook. Absolutely. Its as good as my old MBP if not better. Laptop, not so much, but that's understandable since its not a real attached trackpad.
- draw_down 8y ago
  cmd-F, "trackpad", no results. So probably not, otherwise they would have brought it up at some point.
intended 8y ago
Wait what, there was another surface launch ?
- ColinWielga 8y ago
  A small one. Surface pro 6: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black. Surface laptop 2: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black. Surface studio 2: Gpu bump (1060/1070). Better drive (no longer hybrid). Better screen.
  - intended 8y ago
    They really are underselling these events. I suspect that this is because of dissatisfaction from other OEMs.
salsadip 8y ago
Glad Microsoft is catching up, competition is always good for us. But they are still severely lacking in the software department imo. It's just too complicated (see below) and on top of that the disregard for privacy and including ads in the OS is a no-go. Small anecdote: Last time I had windows 10 installed on my MBP, the screen was funnily dark, although set to 100% brightness via the corresponding keys. Searching deep down in the system settings I found something like 2-3 different settings (power saving settings, profiles etc) which COULD have affected screen brightness, but weren't the culprit. Took me a good couple minutes to dig through the new metro settings app and then the older settings menus to find the right option. Now, it might have been my Bootcamp installation which was configured incorrectly so it was more vetted towards saving power, still doesn't matter: the settings shouldn't be so complicated. It's not really close to "it just works". On mac, the user-facing system architecture is much more comprehensive and easy to figure out.
te_chris 8y ago
Apple will now sell me a laptop with: 6 core i9, 32 gig of RAM and 1TB. As a bedroom producer this is truly incredible - and, yes, incredibly priced. The sheer capability of this machine is awe-inspiring, then you remember that it's super portable. 2018 is great.
- devxpy 8y ago
  Producers are literally the only people left that Apple really cares about now
- djsumdog 8y ago
  The i9 initially had throttling issues, although some of those issues have been solved. A lot of recent reviews have shown that almost every PC/Mac i9, that isn't built with gaming laptop style heat pipes is going to have throttling issues. That processor is really not meant for a thin and light form factor. There are plenty of PC laptops that can give you similar specs to the high end Apples though. Lenovo recently released another Carbon, and I see constant reviews for pretty high end gaming/workstation lappys.
  - te_chris 8y ago
    They're not macbooks though. We bought a ROG Zepherus for someone doing 3d stuff at the place I work, it's fine, has a GTX 1080, but it's no mac book. And you can't run OSX. I'm a (relatively) happy member of the cult with the latest upgrades.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- philliphaydon 8y ago
  https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/ThinkPad-P52/p/22WS2WPWP52 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/Thi...
  - te_chris 8y ago
    Still about £3000 once you add a 1TB SSD, and not as polished. Plus you have to run windows and can't run Logic.
ninju 8y ago
The article contradicts itself > It took years to get here, but Microsoft has nailed it. By comparison, the competition is > flailing around arguing about whether or not touchscreens have a place on laptops. The > answer? Just let people choose. Or if you are Microsoft just put a touchscreen on all your devices > Every single one of these machines has a touchscreen, supports a high-quality stylus, and current generation chipsets.
draw_down 8y ago
Very nice, though personally the software is still an issue for me. But good that someone trying to give Apple a run for their money.
GeekyBear 8y ago
Is someone honestly referring to a laptop that literally cannot be repaired as "the best hardware"? It's not even possible to replace the battery in the Surface Laptop. >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
- Someone1234 8y ago
  That is true. It should be noted, that there aren't many in the ultra-portable/ultrabook range which are repairable. Even looking at Thinkpads, the ultra-portable models aren't repairable, but the more traditional form factors (like the T, P, ranges) remain so. At some point in the thinner/lighter push physics start to dictate what you have to give up to get it. In this case we're talking all soldered/glued parts made to order to fit into the space available.
  - GeekyBear 8y ago
    To my knowledge, the Surface Laptop is the only laptop that iFixit has ever rated as impossible to repair. It didn't receive that rating because it was thin and light. The issue was that it was not possible to open the device without destroying it. >It’s clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be repaired because it’s a completely sealed device. There aren’t even any screws to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from the metal chassis. That’s never going back together. The inner metal shield is also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this is probably not going to be reassembled. >Replacing a defective or worn out battery is one of the most common repairs on laptops, but it’s really not feasible here. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
evanagon 8y ago
This "device lineup" is missing the most important device: a phone.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  Microsoft is going all in on Android now. The app mirroring feature in the October Windows update replicates a major Windows Phone feature. Related, there are persistent rumors of R&D on a pocketable Surface device codenamed "Andromeda" similar to the "Courier" prototype from a decade ago.
AboutTheWhisles 8y ago
This is a straight up advertisement.
linkmotif 8y ago
This is so great. I am so glad someone finally did this. It took 15 years but the heat is on and Apple will have to deliver big or stop building personal computers. I hope it’s the former.
fabiofzero 8y ago
Sadly they also have the worst OS ever.
dgudkov 8y ago
> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. 'It just works' is best tested when you connect to a printer via wi-fi. We sent humans to the moon and car-sized rovers to Mars, but printing seems to be an unsolvable task for the humanity at the current technology level. At least in the Windows world.
vparikh 8y ago
Hardware is the easy part. The software is where the "soul" lies. Microsoft for the most part, has always had descent hardware - its the software that causes them to be unpleasent and unreliable to use.

133 points by owenwil 8y ago

larrik 8y ago

But do they run Linux?

Canadauni 8y ago
I was running Ubuntu mate off of an SD card on my surface pro 3 for a couple months and it worked well until the card corrupted. There is a pretty active community at https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/
VirgilShelton 8y ago
Yes. You can install the Linux subsystem see https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 Or you can install a Linux virtual machine with Hyper-V on Windows 10 see https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-windows-10-using-hyper-v https://m.windowscentral.com/how-run-linux-distros-windows-1...
- ognarb 8y ago
  'Linux subsystem' don't include the linux Kernel, just some gnu tools.
  - hellcow 8y ago
    That's a bit disingenuous. It includes the entire userspace of whatever distro you want.
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      > userspace So, not Linux.
  - jamesgeck0 8y ago
    As a reimplementation of the kernel APIs on top of the NT kernel, it's not the Linux kernel, but it is more than just some GNU tools. In theory, eventually nearly any Linux application should be able to run on WSL.
  - _wmd 8y ago
    I daresay the Ubuntu userspace WSL ships with absolutely eclipses the kernel in terms of lines of code. For all intents and purposes it's another Linux distro, essentially with just one or two core packages swapped out. Excluding drivers, documentation and non-x86 arch code, Linux is "only" 173mb of uncompressed source (39mb gzipped). The Debian source repository is 103GB compressed, or, put another way, the replaced code amounts to about 0.03% of what makes up Debian.
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      This might be true but what does it matter? It would in theory be totally possible with enough work to make Ubuntu run on the FreeBSD kernel, does that mean FreeBSD is Linux?
      - _wmd 8y ago
        Turning that on its head, if you removed all of userspace and just left the kernel, would it be truthful to call what remains Linux? I'd say in common parlance that is what's called "the Linux kernel", and what people mean when they say Linux more thoroughly refers to the work of distributions than it has anything to do with the kernel Linux of the early 00s was popularized on a platform of "Linux is about freedom, Linux is about choice". At least one half of that is entirely due to the distributions.
        umanwizard 8y ago
        You're right from a user perspective, sure. From a programmer's perspective, you are writing a program which interacts with the world by making system calls to the kernel. So the kernel is fundamentally more relevant than the fact that the system is running Wayland and comes with LibreOffice.
  - scardine 8y ago
    The Linux Subsystem for Windows is good enough for my software development needs - the Docker Engine does not run in WSL but you can tell the Linux docker client to use the Windows server by setting an environment variable: export DOCKER_HOST=localhost:2375
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      Okay, what is your point? Whether it's good enough for your needs is unrelated to whether it's Linux.
      - scardine 8y ago
        The point is that unless you are fiddling with the kernel, a Windows laptop with WSL makes for a great workstation for software developers. Even if I only develop for Linux, for me it is either a Mac or Windows on the desktop (my pet peeve with Linux on the desktop is the several counterintuitive paste buffers).
- shmerl 8y ago
  The question really is about Linux proper, not about Linux subsystem or VMs. Can it run Linux on the hardware itself, without jumping through lock-in hoops and other hiccups?
  - raesene9 8y ago
    People have and you can install Linux distros directly onto surface hardware, but personally I wouldn't recommend it. If you want Linux hardware get something that's designed to be shipped with it , so in mainstream land a XPS13 Developer edition or if want something from a vendor focused on Linux System76 or Purism. That said for many "linux" use cases, WSL works just fine. I use it a lot for developer/ssh use cases. Also Windows 10 Hyper-V now has better support for Linux guests so things like clipboards and shared drives can work more smoothly.
    - shmerl 8y ago
      Sure, I wouldn't recommend it either, just trying to understand the level of compatibility it has. I prefer to assemble my own desktop systems, so hardware selection is a different process in such case. As for laptops, I'd go for something with Ryzen+Vega APU. Purism doesn't offer such options.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > Yes. You can install the Linux subsystem So the answer is 'no, it cannot run linux' then?
- ddorian43 8y ago
  TLDR: No.
ognarb 8y ago
Some friend had to compile a custom kernel, to be able to run linux. But Microsoft love Linux.
frebord 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux
- craftyguy 8y ago
  That is not linux.
kbumsik 8y ago
Why not? I use a Surface Pro 3 and I have installed Ubuntu, Fedora, and Arch and they works well without any kernel fix. The drivers for the Surface hardware are getting mainline recently so you need to make sure you install latest Linux distributions. (for example, don’t install old Ubuntu 16.04 LTS.) In case of Surface Book, which has very unusual hardware configurations, it has problems with Nvidia dGPU but mostly works well: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_2 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microsoft_Surface_Book_...
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I had my Surface Pro 2 dual booting. I still hated the device and eventually sold it, replacing it with an MSI. But in response to the questions, a Surface is just a standard PC with UEFI, so as long as all the hardware has kernel support, it should boot up fine.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

It's impressively broad and consistent. Well done, MS. Surprising what a software company can do with hardware ;)

mc32 8y ago
The one thing the Dells of the world have over the MSFTs and AAPLs of the world is choice in configurability. That said, for home users their portable computer lineup makes sense.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  Maybe too much configuration? It's not clear what the value prop is of the Inspiron line versus the XPS line and the Inspiron line has 20 base models.

adpirz 8y ago

> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. Can anyone who's recently transitioned to a Surface from a MacBook Pro / Air testify to the validity of this statement? I am dreading the day I need to upgrade my 2014 MBP, I'm just not compelled by the Touch Bar Macs and the tax they add to the new lineup, but I still hear horror stories about BSOD, bloatware, and the surprise update you can't back out of that I'd want to return to far less.

nagi2k4 8y ago
I use a MBP at work and just bought a Surface Book 2 to use for side projects. It's everything I want a MBP to be, good battery life (you can go almost a full day on a single charge), a touch screen that works exceedingly well, and function keys that are...keys. Using the stylus also changes your workflow, instead of screen shotting, opening in preview, and annotating, you just kind of draw on the screen and share the image. Only major downside I've run into is that there do not seem to be any native terminals for Windows that even come close to rivaling iTerm 2. Cmdr is decent, but has some weirdness around colors and ligatures; Hyper is also decent, but has some rough edges. Suspect that'll change as more devs start needing decent *nix environments to develop on.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  The terminal situation will hopefully improve shortly; Microsoft just recently overhauled their console API with a backwards compatible API that behaves much closer to how *NIX works.
- matthewaveryusa 8y ago
  not native, and assuming you use the terminal to shell into other devices -- Have you used mobaxterm? I think it's pretty great
- phowat 8y ago
  I second this, I haven't found a Windows terminal that comes close to being as comfortable to use as iTerm, or even Terminal.app for that matter.

elboru 8y ago

>One final thought: the biggest point of discussion around these new devices is the lack of USB-C on modern devices. While I agree with this point, I suspect that the decision was made because consumers outside of our industry simply don't care, and the transition period sucks -- dongles galore and little to show for it. Well it's not only that they don't care, they just don't know yet. But they will care and know after they get new gadgets then they'll start wondering why they need adaptors or different chargers for their computers. That argument was fine with the previous models, but in 2018 all new gadgets use USB-C and that will be the norm from now on. I was thinking on getting one of their products, but this really is a turn off for me, since if I buy a computer today I expect to use it for at least 5 years (like my current 2013 MacBook Pro) and I don't see myself carrying around adapters in 2023.

jamesgeck0 8y ago
The omission of USB-C and Thunderbolt ports also means that Microsoft's entire lineup is incompatible with eGPU enclosures, which is unfortunate.
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thrower123 8y ago
USB-C ports are an active negative for me. I do not care to have them at all - I still don't own a single device that would use a USB-C port, while I have mountains of USB-A devices that will last for a length of time between 5 more years or until the earth is engulfed by the sun. I also like having dedicated power and display ports (HDMI-out is a requirement for the foreseeable future) as well, which are obvious and cannot have anything else stuffed into them.
- jdmichal 8y ago
  Not to mention that a separate power port allows Microsoft to continue their magnetic power adapter, who's passing in Apple design is still oft maligned... And the Surface Book 2 does have a USB-C connector and can even charge off of it.

bengale 8y ago

I hope this means I get to watch the same guys buy another bunch of surface hardware and then sell it a few months later and sheepishly return to their MacBooks. Edit: Hit a sore spot I see.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace of privacy. I think this matters to more high-end consumers than many people realise. If Microsoft deployed features that made their devices (and culture) convincingly impenetrable, I’d switch.

danieldk 8y ago
The key feature keeping me in Apple’s ecosystem is their unwavering embrace of privacy. But so do Linux and BSD. A stellar laptop with good Linux support may be enough for me to jump ship. I have been a Mac user since 2007, but it is clear that Apple does not really care about the Mac anymore. They will keep the Mac alive to continue to take the revenue and to have an iOS development machine. The Mac Mini has gone downhill since the 2012 model, the MacBook Pro has been quite bad since the 2016 (I have one and dislike it), the MacBook Air is great as it ever was, but is effectively early 2010s technology when it comes to the screen. On the software side, they are not really fostering the Mac ISV ecosystem anymore. macOS is still great, because Apple was so far ahead when they stopped caring (2012 or so). But the great stagnation has already gone on for half a decade or so. I am not a Windows user, but at least Microsoft cares about their Surface lineup.
- ktta 8y ago
  There's System76 and Dell's new Ubuntu laptops. The problem just might be about Linux support in general
  - Arbalest 8y ago
    I would really love a go to for this, but System76 are still bound by what Clevo makes. Lots of it just isn't that interesting. Clevo, from what I see, is a specs first company, but I think we're a bit beyond that now. I'm finding myself more and more interested in battery life, weight, and a good keyboard. This is already hard enough to find in laptops as is, let alone in Clevo's range edit: I tried Dell's keyboard on the XPS and immediately disliked it. I don't think the developer ed would have different hardware in this respect.

yoodenvranx 8y ago

Are they still almost impossible to repair? I remember that iFixit gave the previous generation a 1/10 when it came to repairability.

djsumdog 8y ago
I thought it was a 0/10. The ones with the felt surface required tearing apart the entire unit in a totally non-repairable way. The laptops have actual bodies and you should be able to take them apart. I'd wait until Dave2D does a review as he almost always includes opening the laptop.

MrEfficiency 8y ago

I really like my windows 10 set up, it took me a few weeks to make it perfect by: >Swapping my HDD with a SSD >Fresh install of windows, removing the crapware that came with my laptop And its incredible, I have about 7 chrome windows with 30 tabs open, sublime, Virtualbox, VS code, heidiSQL, excel, calculator, folders, paint, snipping tool, and often more open at the same time. I can remote into my ubuntu server and get all of those benefits. What is the competition? Apple who costs 3x more? Linux desktop which requires the extensive use of Terminal to function at Window's expectations? I want to see someone knock M$ off their OS throne, but that is more of an unnecessary fantasy than a real pain.

dakom 8y ago

I enjoy having windows as a machine for gaming and hacking, but WSL feels slow. Simple things like compiling and running watchers/servers for local changes. What's the recommended approach for (non-visual-studio) coding larger projects? Install Linux on another partition? Use native binaries and forget about WSL? Fwiw I like working in NeoVim and it's been great in WSL-terminal, overall I'm happy with that route - but the slowness is annoying...

tutysara 8y ago
Yes even things like git are comparitively slow on wsl. Emacs in windows is also slow, haven't found a solution to this.
- mattigames 8y ago
  Why would you use git on wsl when the project itself has released binaries for Windows?
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devxpy 8y ago
Keep calm and install solus ;)
mattigames 8y ago
For watchers and servers I use native nodejs/gulp/webpack (no WSL), apache and for code edition I'm more than happy with Sublime Text with a bunch of plugins.

dman 8y ago

Wish Microsoft fixed the following two things a. Fix IO overheads - things like cloning git repositories, copying directories with several thousands of small files, compilation are all much slower on Windows. b. Write a proper terminal.

boterock 8y ago
proper terminal APIs are coming in w10 october update, so then we will see how a real win10 terminal would work, and not just another cmd reskin as it has always been...
- dman 8y ago
  What about IO? I half suspect its the file notification apis that cause the slowness (since disabling antivirus seems to help a fair amount) but would love to hear more from people in the know. What are the things standing between how things are now and matching linux on the time it takes to git clone a large repo + compile it.

jhare 8y ago

I'm sure their lineup has improved. My Thinkpad Carbon X1? My cold dead hands is where you'll find that, not some Surface nonsense.

TwoBit 8y ago

Does Microsoft hardware have a decent trackpad, unlike all other PC laptops? My MacBook trackpad is great and I'm baffled as to why PCs can't replicate it.

coder543 8y ago
Windows trackpads in mid-range or better laptops have been every bit as good as their Mac equivalent for several years now, in my opinion. Unless you think Force Touch is something desirable on a trackpad, in which case you'll be disappointed. Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed by its floppy keyboard or tiny trackpad. A Lenovo X1 Carbon, on the other hand, is just incredible.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  > Surface is a weird hybrid of laptop and tablet, and I haven't been impressed by its floppy keyboard I agree, but only as far as the Surface Pro/Go are concerned. The Surface Book and Surface Laptop have no such issues, and have a very good keyboard feel. I don't currently recommend a Surface Pro or Go for that reason. I will happily recommend the Book or Surface Laptop however.
  - coder543 8y ago
    I agree, I definitely meant to refer only to the Surface Pro. I wish the Surface Laptop had USB-C, and I'm not a fan of how expensive the Surface Book is, but I recognize the Surface Book might be awesome for certain people.
amf12 8y ago
Surfacebook. Absolutely. Its as good as my old MBP if not better. Laptop, not so much, but that's understandable since its not a real attached trackpad.
draw_down 8y ago
cmd-F, "trackpad", no results. So probably not, otherwise they would have brought it up at some point.

intended 8y ago

Wait what, there was another surface launch ?

ColinWielga 8y ago
A small one. Surface pro 6: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black. Surface laptop 2: 8th gen cpu. Better screen. Available in black. Surface studio 2: Gpu bump (1060/1070). Better drive (no longer hybrid). Better screen.
- intended 8y ago
  They really are underselling these events. I suspect that this is because of dissatisfaction from other OEMs.

salsadip 8y ago

Glad Microsoft is catching up, competition is always good for us. But they are still severely lacking in the software department imo. It's just too complicated (see below) and on top of that the disregard for privacy and including ads in the OS is a no-go. Small anecdote: Last time I had windows 10 installed on my MBP, the screen was funnily dark, although set to 100% brightness via the corresponding keys. Searching deep down in the system settings I found something like 2-3 different settings (power saving settings, profiles etc) which COULD have affected screen brightness, but weren't the culprit. Took me a good couple minutes to dig through the new metro settings app and then the older settings menus to find the right option. Now, it might have been my Bootcamp installation which was configured incorrectly so it was more vetted towards saving power, still doesn't matter: the settings shouldn't be so complicated. It's not really close to "it just works". On mac, the user-facing system architecture is much more comprehensive and easy to figure out.

te_chris 8y ago

Apple will now sell me a laptop with: 6 core i9, 32 gig of RAM and 1TB. As a bedroom producer this is truly incredible - and, yes, incredibly priced. The sheer capability of this machine is awe-inspiring, then you remember that it's super portable. 2018 is great.

devxpy 8y ago
Producers are literally the only people left that Apple really cares about now
djsumdog 8y ago
The i9 initially had throttling issues, although some of those issues have been solved. A lot of recent reviews have shown that almost every PC/Mac i9, that isn't built with gaming laptop style heat pipes is going to have throttling issues. That processor is really not meant for a thin and light form factor. There are plenty of PC laptops that can give you similar specs to the high end Apples though. Lenovo recently released another Carbon, and I see constant reviews for pretty high end gaming/workstation lappys.
- te_chris 8y ago
  They're not macbooks though. We bought a ROG Zepherus for someone doing 3d stuff at the place I work, it's fine, has a GTX 1080, but it's no mac book. And you can't run OSX. I'm a (relatively) happy member of the cult with the latest upgrades.
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philliphaydon 8y ago
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/ThinkPad-P52/p/22WS2WPWP52 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-p/Thi...
- te_chris 8y ago
  Still about £3000 once you add a 1TB SSD, and not as polished. Plus you have to run windows and can't run Logic.

ninju 8y ago

The article contradicts itself > It took years to get here, but Microsoft has nailed it. By comparison, the competition is > flailing around arguing about whether or not touchscreens have a place on laptops. The > answer? Just let people choose. Or if you are Microsoft just put a touchscreen on all your devices > Every single one of these machines has a touchscreen, supports a high-quality stylus, and current generation chipsets.

draw_down 8y ago

Very nice, though personally the software is still an issue for me. But good that someone trying to give Apple a run for their money.

GeekyBear 8y ago

Is someone honestly referring to a laptop that literally cannot be repaired as "the best hardware"? It's not even possible to replace the battery in the Surface Laptop. >According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

Someone1234 8y ago
That is true. It should be noted, that there aren't many in the ultra-portable/ultrabook range which are repairable. Even looking at Thinkpads, the ultra-portable models aren't repairable, but the more traditional form factors (like the T, P, ranges) remain so. At some point in the thinner/lighter push physics start to dictate what you have to give up to get it. In this case we're talking all soldered/glued parts made to order to fit into the space available.
- GeekyBear 8y ago
  To my knowledge, the Surface Laptop is the only laptop that iFixit has ever rated as impossible to repair. It didn't receive that rating because it was thin and light. The issue was that it was not possible to open the device without destroying it. >It’s clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be repaired because it’s a completely sealed device. There aren’t even any screws to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from the metal chassis. That’s never going back together. The inner metal shield is also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this is probably not going to be reassembled. >Replacing a defective or worn out battery is one of the most common repairs on laptops, but it’s really not feasible here. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-surface-laptop-glue-filled-monstrosity https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

evanagon 8y ago

This "device lineup" is missing the most important device: a phone.

jamesgeck0 8y ago
Microsoft is going all in on Android now. The app mirroring feature in the October Windows update replicates a major Windows Phone feature. Related, there are persistent rumors of R&D on a pocketable Surface device codenamed "Andromeda" similar to the "Courier" prototype from a decade ago.

AboutTheWhisles 8y ago

This is a straight up advertisement.

linkmotif 8y ago

This is so great. I am so glad someone finally did this. It took 15 years but the heat is on and Apple will have to deliver big or stop building personal computers. I hope it’s the former.

fabiofzero 8y ago

Sadly they also have the worst OS ever.

dgudkov 8y ago

> The 'it just works' narrative applies to Microsoft better than any other company right now, and consumers are noticing. 'It just works' is best tested when you connect to a printer via wi-fi. We sent humans to the moon and car-sized rovers to Mars, but printing seems to be an unsolvable task for the humanity at the current technology level. At least in the Windows world.

vparikh 8y ago

Hardware is the easy part. The software is where the "soul" lies. Microsoft for the most part, has always had descent hardware - its the software that causes them to be unpleasent and unreliable to use.