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Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age
- atomical 8y agoNotice that there is no mention of diet because diet doesn't matter that much as long as there is a surplus. The body is pretty amazing.
- doctorcroc 8y agoThis is an extremely ignorant comment. In what other system would you ever say, "the inputs are irrelevant provided you supply enough volume"? Diet absolutely matters tremendously. We just don't have a good understanding of how individual variability and gut microbiomes affect one's optimal diet. But we can all universally agree that humans need to avoid sugar, eat little to no processed food, and eat less in general.
- adrianN 8y agoEating less is not good advice if you want to build muscle. Frail elderly people often don't eat enough, or lack fiber, for example because their teeth hurt. Appetite also declines with age.
- presscast 8y ago>Frail elderly people often don't eat enough, or lack fiber, for example because their teeth hurt. Appetite also declines with age. You're strongly implying causation here. I'm unaware of any serious body of research that indicates elderly people are getting frailer because of a decrease in appetite.
- adrianN 8y agoI did not mean to imply that, I just wanted to make the point that eating less is not always good advice, in particular in the age bracket that suffers from age related muscle loss.
- doctorcroc 8y agoYou're right, and there's always exceptions to the rule. Eg some of those with life threatening injuries probably need processed food in the interim. But the general point stands which is that human longevity had been correlated with caloric restriction. Even in Ben Franklin's wit and wisdom, he remarks that to preserve one's life, one should eat less. This observation is timeless
- atomical 8y agoHuman longevity has also been correlated with many other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone
- adrianN 8y agoI don't think caloric restriction has been shown to increase lifespan in humans. It works very well in the mouse model, but iirc monkeys don't benefit (as much?).
- atomical 8y agoIndividual variability and gut microbione are both pseudoscience. That's ignorance right there. If you want to science please use Cochrane Collab.
- Yajirobe 8y agoI heard sugar is good for the brain. Is that incorrect?
- morsma 8y agoDiet is extremely important on these matters, where did you get the idea it wasn't?
- atomical 8y agoApparently not because it didn't play a big role in the outcome. Did you read the article? > A decline in physical activity, common among older people, is only one reason sarcopenia happens. Other contributing factors include hormonal changes, chronic illness, body-wide inflammation and poor nutrition.
- maxerickson 8y agoPoor nutrition is mentioned.
- atomical 8y ago> A decline in physical activity, common among older people, is only one reason sarcopenia happens. Other contributing factors include hormonal changes, chronic illness, body-wide inflammation and poor nutrition. It's wasn't a major cause of muscle loss.
- always_good 8y agoI don't understand how you are inferring the weight of each thing in a list. In fact, that quote directly contradicts you.
- madeuptempacct 8y agoMore interested in preventing this: http://social-quotient.info/sq.4mg.com/brainpower.gif http://social-quotient.info/sq.4mg.com/brainpower.gif Much less clear on how accomplish that. Edit: To elaborate, I know exactly what I need to do to stay physically fit into old age and how to monitor my physical fitness - I know immediately when I get winded more from my regular run, my lift numbers drop, or I can't reach my toes. The scary part is if I stop working out for more than 2 weeks, I see dramatic and rapid declines. So how do I monitor my mental health? Is it possible to keep improving it? Do I do dual-n-back (studies inconclusive), do I learn a languge/to play piano, do I memorize 5 words a day?
- morsma 8y agoLow carb and periodic water fasting (autophagy), and you should be set old age.
- presscast 8y agoAdd "occasional heavy lifting" to that list. Baby boomers are deadset on this idea that cardio is the only kind of exercise that one should be doing.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoI wonder who was running the PR for cardio and weightlifting in the 70-90's. For some reason weight lifting, and barbell training in particular, has a weird anti-intellectual connotation. Getting up to run for two hours at 4 am is the habit of a successful business executive, but spend a couple of hours a day in the gym and carry an excess of muscle mass and you're clearly dumb. It's very strange.
- gonzo 8y agoThe Jim Fixx book "The Complete Book of Running" was a national best seller starting in 1977, then aerobics (studio exercise, a la Jane Fonda) hit, followed by Arthur Jones' Nautilus in 1986. Free weights were considered "dangerous" for a long time. Frankly, most people who lifted back then were suspected of being homosexual. If you take boomers as being born between 1946 and 1964, then the leading edge of the boomers were turning 30 about the time both Fixx's book and "Pumping Iron" hit the popular conscious. There is a lot more money in selling shoes to people than gym memberships, so saturation advertising is part of the 'why' as well.
- daddyofive 8y agoPeople from my parents generation are ignorant about the body. My dad treated his body like a rented car and he died for it. I’m pretty sure that anybody with any level of biological education and sensibility will not be troubled too much by this problem.
- zaroth 8y agoCtrl-F Testosterone - was disappoint. For approximately half of the population, supplementing testosterone into old age is a great way to maintain (and build) SMM along with that physical activity which TFA admonishes the lack of.
- rthomas6 8y agoBut it's still GREATLY aided by resistance training. Testosterone supplementation on its own is vastly inferior to testosterone + weights.
- SnowingXIV 8y agoI was too, basically the article is saying to lift. Which I do agree with but if you're suggesting TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), something that has definitely become popular and is being advertised heavily - I'd caution that it's not for everyone and there have been plenty of lawsuits filed already and problems allegedly associated with it. I guess like everything, check with your doctor which the article does suggest. At least 9 products have been named in the litigation. Fortestam, AndroGel, Axiron, Androderm, etc. One of the many lawyers working on these cases: https://outline.com/YEpTGg https://outline.com/YEpTGg The MDL source: http://www.ilnd.uscourts.gov/mdl-details.aspx?UGlDS1bLxpRHyfdf3l5DJQ== http://www.ilnd.uscourts.gov/mdl-details.aspx?UGlDS1bLxpRHyf... You do have to wonder about guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is 71 (ridiculous) and is in better shape than most. I can't imagine how much work he has to put into to keeping that up. Supplements can only do so much.
- oihoaihsfoiahsf 8y agoIt's true that Arnold is quite a specimen. And on Reddit there was recently a video of a ninety year old man deadlifting 400lb. https://www.facebook.com/SPORTbible/videos/1131499677007260/ https://www.facebook.com/SPORTbible/videos/1131499677007260/ He doesn't quite get the full range of motion but it's still damnably impressive.
- imjk 8y agoArnold has also admitted to steroid use in the past and has had multiple open heart surgeries.
- davemp 8y agoAm I missing something or is the article just giving a name to very generic muscle loss and saying that one can workout and get enough protein to combat it? I hate to be overly critical, but these types of articles published by the likes of nytimes just make digesting news more difficult. Puff pieces honestly subtract value from my life. I with more news vendors would think about the value they provide in the internet age and adjust.
- criddell 8y agoThe article is needlessly verbose. Here's the one paragraph that contains all of the information you need: > If you’re currently sedentary or have a serious chronic illness, check first with your doctor. But as soon as you get the go-ahead, start a strength-training program using free weights, resistance bands or machines, preferably after taking a few lessons from a physical therapist or certified trainer.
- ekianjo 8y agoAgree. I see also way too many NYtimes articles on HN recently. What happened to the adage that "if its on the popular media, it should probably not be on HN". Is HN turning into the comment system of the NYT?
- rrishi 8y ago> "if its on the popular media, it should probably not be on HN" Why though? Can't say for all but a majority of articles on popular media would be mostly right...that's why they are popular. As things go more fringe, there is less verification.
- ekianjo 8y agoIt's not about that. It's called "Hacker News" for a reason. I don't mind having regular stories hitting HN sometimes, but there's nowadays a massive flux of NYT, and also NewYorker, TheAtlantic just to name a few, which were not there a few years back.
- lysp 8y agoI always like to show this picture as an example. https://i.imgur.com/ZcDedfo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ZcDedfo.jpg I don't have an original source but it shows a MRI leg scan comparison between a 40yo triathlete, a sedentary 70yo and a 70yo triathlete. The picture tells the story...
- maxxxxx 8y agoThat's a good one. Amazing how little muscle the sedentary person has.
- jlawson 8y agoI'm pretty sure the images are scaled differently (note the sizes of the bones, which should be the same). The sedentary person isn't just sedentary, they look to be morbidly obese. That image is zoomed out, but the actual size of the muscle isn't that different. It's just surrounded by a huge amount of fat.
- christophilus 8y agoYeesh. That's a great visual. I'm a sedentary software engineer... gotta make some changes. It reminds me of the cancer slides in the "How Not to Die" talk https://youtu.be/7rNY7xKyGCQ?t=780 https://youtu.be/7rNY7xKyGCQ?t=780 which is partly why I'm now vegan.
- andy_ppp 8y agoLove the talking style of the speaker as well as the terrifying content!
- hokkos 8y agoDr Greger and its undisclosed vegan agenda using cherry picked or wrongly interpreted studies to push it.
- chillingeffect 8y agoWould you consider adding to the discussion by presenting meta-studies showing meat is not carcinogenic?
- rthomas6 8y agoWeight training into old age does much more than prevent muscle loss! It also prevents osteoporosis and increases bone density, decreases likelihood of falls, and might even prevent cognitive decline. Basically it prevents you from slowly withering away as you die. Instead you are pretty normal, then one day you die. It doesn't make you live longer, but it can give you a lot more quality years.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoNot only are you less likely to die of a heart attack, diabetes, or a broken hip, you're also more likely to be still doing the things you love when you do pass away. It's a win win really.
- tcbawo 8y agoThis seems like many parts of the human body: use it or lose it. I've heard this described as well for sexual function. Supposedly, seniors losing the ability to walk leads to quick decline in health.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ausjke 8y agoJust do this 7 minutes a day without any tools you will be fine: https://7-min.com/ https://7-min.com/, at least it is a good start.
- suprfnk 8y agoIt might be a good start to get people moving, but I can't imagine this being enough. That amounts to not even an hour of exercise in the 168 hours in a week. Do you have any source for "you will be fine"?
- corpMaverick 8y agohttps://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the-scientific-7-minute-workout/ https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/the-scientific-7-m... https://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/05000/HIGH_INTENSITY_CIRCUIT_TRAINING_USING_BODY_WEIGHT_.5.aspx https://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfitness/Fulltext/2013/05...
- kevindqc 8y agoIt's a good start, but you're supposed to do it more than once iirc.
- ubermonkey 8y agoZOMG find something to do, and keep doing it. Cycling is very nerd-friendly. There are numbers and gadgets and even what amounts to an MMO in Zwift.
- Mc_Big_G 8y agoAccording to the article, cycling isn't enough. You need to do heavier resistance training.
- rezeroed 8y agoChange gear.
- cultus 8y agoSpeaking as a former bike racer, cycling does not build muscles unless you are already wildly out of shape. Pedaling in a tall gear still isn't much resistance, typically less than body weight. Muscle is built only by getting near the limit of musclular strength. Cycling only challenges your cardiovascular system. I always squatted and deadlifted to get better at sprints. Other racers who were climbing specialists had skinnier legs than the average man, yet they could climb hills incredibly fast.
- bmj 8y agoI think it's important to qualify this, at least a little bit. Life-long endurance athletes will still maintain muscle as they age, but you can't expect to take up casual cycling as an overweight, sedentary 45+ year old and have that sort of physiological change. Strength/resistance training is ideal if you are trying to push back against the effects of a sedentary lifestyle. All that said--most serious endurance athletes are realizing that they need to hit the proverbial weight room, at least at certain times during the year.
- andy_ppp 8y agoI can't recommend StrongLifts enough. https://stronglifts.com https://stronglifts.com I'm up to squatting 130kg now and feeling great!
- amorphous 8y agoThe problem with this training is the need to go to a gym or to build one at home. Can't do the latter and loathe going the gym. However, I do enjoy group classes. I tried cross-fit but I found that the competitiveness and exercising against a running clock is not for me (also considering that I'm usually the oldest - 48 though I don't look like it) Then I heard about kettlebell training and that seems to be exactly what I need! I have a kettlebell group class nearby and purchased one kettlebell to use at home. So as an alternative to those who may want an alternative that gives a lot of ROI consider kettlebell training.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- deskamess 8y agoIn your age group and do some HIIT and Cardio Mix. I do not know much about kettlebells, so what is the ROI on it? I know it can be hard to answer that, so just your personal feelings on how it benefited you would help. I am trying to get some weight training added to my mix and that is the reason for my asking. Thanks.
- amorphous 8y agoA kettlebell is just one small piece of equipment that allows you to have a rather complete workout. Once progressing you may need to increase the weight, but still, something that you can easily do at home. There are plenty of exercises available, online and in books. Just my personal impression but I feel I have exercised well after a session. Obviously, proper weight training in a gym will bring better results but I don't think that this is necessary if all you care is staying healthy and in shape. I just mix it with other sports like running.
- deleted 8y ago
- jimijazz 8y agoTL;DR Lift weights in repetitions in a mid-intense way.
- lemming 8y agoI've been investigating recommended protein intake recently and counting calories to lose some weight, and it's amazing how little protein most people get compared to what is now recommended. Here's examine.com on the recommended amounts: https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/ https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/. I'm of fairly healthy weight, active and have been losing some weight, so I should be getting 2.2-3.3 g/kg according to that. I have two protein shakes a day and build every meal around as much protein as possible while still having it resemble normal food, and I'm achieving an average of about 2.2g/kg, i.e. just at the lower end of where I should be. Particularly when trying to lose weight, getting the amount of protein required in the calories allowed is really tough. It's easier when maintaining weight or trying to gain weight since the protein requirements are similar but you have more calories to play with. I'm 46, so soon I'll be in the 50+ group which the examine.com article says is when you start needing more protein in a single dose. For me that's about 36g per meal - about 6 eggs, for example. Counting calories is a bit of a pain to get started with, but isn't too bad once you're going since most people tend to repeat meals frequently. But it's been really illuminating - I thought I ate well previously, but I was a long way from where I needed to be. It's pretty geeky but has been really interesting. I've realised that it's essentially impossible to eat the way I should do eating food I don't prepare myself - nothing has anywhere near enough protein. Data driven health FTW.
- st26 8y ago1.5g/lb (3.3g/kg) is considered by many in the weight training communities to be way overkill, and potentially hard on your kidneys.
- lemming 8y agoYeah, 3.3g/kg is really high, and I don't see how you could get there without living on shakes. From that examine.com article: Eating more than 2.6 g/kg (1.18 g/lb) is probably not going to lead to greater muscle gains, but it can minimize fat gains when “bulking” — i.e., when eating above maintenance in order to gain (muscle) weight. There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence for the kidney thing as long as you don't dramatically increase protein suddenly: https://examine.com/nutrition/can-eating-too-much-protein-be-bad-for-you/ https://examine.com/nutrition/can-eating-too-much-protein-be...
- gadders 8y agoRelated article from Starting Strength - Barbell Training is Big Medicine [1]: >> I’ll approach a patient who has come to be treated for chronic pain, fatigue, elevated blood pressure, shortness of breath, or a blood sugar that’s out of control. I find myself confronted by a very overweight, deconditioned 52 year-old, going on 70, with battered joints, atrophic muscles, no physiologic reserve, an inability to get off the gurney without groaning and wheezing, and a grim future. When I work them up, I find no medical emergency, just what I have come to call “diatensionolesity”—type II diabetes, hypertension, a screwed-up blood-lipid profile, and obesity. And I think to myself: If I could get you under the bar, I could change your life. [1] https://startingstrength.com/article/barbell_training_is_big_medicine https://startingstrength.com/article/barbell_training_is_big...
- bproven 8y agoAgreed. Starting Strength is a great program to follow for anyone to geting started with strength training. The focus on big compound movements, short gym time and strength is perfect - especially as you get older. You can also add accessory stuff as needed (time allows).
- zokahn 8y agoGreat article. I always wondered if the decline i see with elderly people is due to age or just because they become inactive. I hear "I'm too old for this, i don't have to do this anymore" a lot and i don't agree. Working out is hard but healthy on any age. I feel sad seeing people giving up on their bodies...
- baccheion 8y agoPreventing muscle and bone loss mainly involves keeping hormones/vitamins/minerals/nutrients in range and maintaining efficient metabolism. And maybe exercising.
- jmcgough 8y agoDiet often isn't enough as you age. You will almost certainly lose muscle (and thereby lose autonomy) as you age, unless you're getting some form of strength training. Strength training also stimulates osteoblasts, strengthening bones.
- baccheion 8y agoNot true. Adding vitamin D3, vitamin K2 MK-4, iodine/iodide, boron, silica (monomethylsilanetriol), etc does a lot to slow decline. And eventually topical pregnenolone + DHEA (5 mg : 5 mg). Strength training is also great. If exercise continues into old age without proper nutrition and the additions mentioned above, it can worsen decline. And just adding supplements, improving nutrition, and ensuring regular movement (ie, not really exercising) still slows decline.
- jmcgough 8y agoAt worst, you'll get injured if you aren't exercising correctly, but it's never going to directly worsen decline. Solving aging, mental or physical health problems isn't as simple as taking a dozen supplements. Obviously proper nutrition is important, but regular exercise is the closest thing we have to a panacea right now.
- jgrahamc 8y agoStrength training has worked well for me. I was diagnosed with osteopenia aged 40 and was told the solution was either weird osteoporosis drugs usually given to women or strength training. I restored my bone density to well above average for my age with the three big lifts. Didn't do it to get big or shredded, but it worked.
- chimeracoder 8y agoIt's too bad that we somehow decided that steroids are immoral and need to be regulated to the point that they're essentially banned. Anabolic steroids, when provided in correct dosages and under the care of a physician, are quite safe and solve this exact problem.
- fcuck_actuarial 8y agoWhat really bothers me is that youtube and instagram are full or lifting/exercise guru that presume to give people useful advice(and frequently sell things). Except most/all of these people that claim they are natural actually take steroids. Steroids are such a force multiplier - they will completely overpower mediocre diet and training. A natural lifter could do everything perfectly and still fall far behind the results of these so called experts.
- cheald 8y agoA good filter is to get your advice from people that compete in (or coach athletes competing in) tested federations. While you can't guarantee they aren't cheating, those folks tend to be watched very carefully.
- dataker 8y agoI'd also like to mention the use of hormonal replacement technologies (as TRT and HGH) that can absolutely help the elderly. We have terrible stereotypes around testosterone because of steroid abuse in athletes, but reality paints itself very differently. https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/this-103yearold-bodybuilder-was-indias-first-mr-universe-heres-why-hell-always-be-indias-pride-244648.html https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/this-103yearold-bodybu... My grandmother underwent medical treatment using Deca Durabolin, a well-known anabolic steroid, and she could walk again after a long time spent in beds and, at best, chairs.
- corpMaverick 8y agoAs a 50 yo. This is what I am doing and I feel great. Day 1: Strength training. kudos /r/bodyweightfitness (1hr) Day 2: Yoga. 25 -35 minutes Day 3: Running ~20 minutes. Some days I do higher intensity other days lower intensity with increased time. It takes very little time. Yoga provides mobility and joint integrity which I feel is important as you age. This programming gives me a lot of rest time to recover, which is slower as you age.
- beat 8y agoI started working out at 52, mostly weight training, and made tremendous progress. But I have a hard time defending the habit from incursion by the rest of my life. I've been out for the past couple of weeks because my spouse just had knee surgery and has needed a lot of care. I got quite cranky when she and her mother "helping" meant I did not make a planned trip to the gym on sunday. But part of the problem there is that I have built my exercise around a "go to the gym" habit. I need to do things that don't involve going to the gym, a habit I can work on at home. Habits are the hard part!
- RobertSmith 8y agoLCHF diet plus regular exercise would prevent muscle loss for sure. My experience says it
- emersonrsantos 8y agoFor me it’s bodyweight fitness (which is olympic gymnastics for newbies), following the recommended routine from the reddit /r/bodyweightfitness community, plus exercise bike every day. Used to do weight training, the chance of injury becomes higher as you age. Also, as you add muscle mass and more training, you will need much more time to recover. Also always watch for overtraining symptoms. Our body is the most precious thing we will ever encounter, or possess in life.
- timbit42 8y agoWhat about rebounding? It looks like it would prevent muscle loss while being safe for older joints.
- baccheion 8y agoGeneral/Regular movement (ie, walking) is more likely to overcome effects of sitting or being sedentary than exercise. http://annals.org/aim/article/2653704/patterns-sedentary-behavior-mortality-u-s-middle-aged-older-adults http://annals.org/aim/article/2653704/patterns-sedentary-beh...