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Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

180 points by uptown 8y ago

simosx 8y ago
This Bloomberg article has several shortcomings. 1. "Android and Chrome OS are built on Linux, a widely used open-source programming language." Here they mix up the Linux kernel with the Java programming language. 2. "Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is owned by Oracle Corp., is at the center of a lengthy, bitter lawsuit between the two companies. Shifting away from using Linux would help Google’s legal case that its software isn’t reliant on Oracle." While here they mix up the Java programming language with the Linux kernel.
- gizmo385 8y ago
  Imagine the horrors if Oracle "owned" Linux...
  - devmunchies 8y ago
    Then I’m sure Unix or FreeBSD would be more prevalent for servers.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Well, they did their share of contributions http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/linux/technical-contributions-1689636.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/linux/techn... As for Java, if Google actually cared to get away with their actions, they could have bought Sun. Surely it would have been cheaper than what they already paied their lawyers.
  - zhengyi13 8y ago
    Well, SCO certainly tried to make that claim.
  - deaddodo 8y ago
    Well, they did build JavaOS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS
- yemich 8y ago
  1. No they didn't. They incorrectly used the word language instead of Kernel. Chrome Os is not built with Java. 2. Correct
- geocar 8y ago
  > Here they mix up the Linux kernel with the Java programming language. I parsed that comma as an "and". > While here they mix up the Java programming language with the Linux kernel. Did they? It might be implied that Google is dropping Java as well. Indeed other sources seem to suggest this is their strategy[1], [2], [3], [4] My experiences with Bloomberg writers is that they're not lazy, but they elide a great deal of specificity to focus on the business effects and brands instead of technical bits and bobs. [1]: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/21/android_the_next_10_years/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/21/android_the_next_10... [2]: https://www.quora.com/Is-Google-implictly-going-to-drop-Java-and-use-Kotlin-for-Android-due-to-licensing-issues-with-Oracle https://www.quora.com/Is-Google-implictly-going-to-drop-Java... [3]: https://rethinkresearch.biz/articles/google-reveals-more-fuchsia-in-wake-of-oracle-java-legal-defeat/ https://rethinkresearch.biz/articles/google-reveals-more-fuc... [4]: https://www.androidauthority.com/we-compiled-fuchsia-os-710491/ https://www.androidauthority.com/we-compiled-fuchsia-os-7104...
- basch 8y ago
  I agree. Some other snippets > In the code pages, the Googlers working on Fuchsia specify that the software is not finalized. Really, that needed to be said? An operating system with no practical use or implementation isnt finished? None of the ones in mass use right now are "finished." >This means Google’s latest services only reach a fraction of Android users. Google Play Services were split out from the OS back in 2013. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-s... The author repeatedly tries to paint Android as a monolith held back by hardware manufacturers, and google, for the most part has split what we know as Android into two layers, and has fullll control of one of those two. >"Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is distributed by Oracle Corp., is at the center of a lengthy, bitter lawsuit between the two companies. Android was also built using Java software technology, which Oracle owns and has claimed Google stole to shore up its mobile business." Even after a correction, the article still claims Oracle has sued Google over Linux! (Not sure if your copy/paste is from after the correction.) The author demonstrates no understanding of the difference between the Linux Kernel, Common Libraries, Android Runtime, Android Application Framework, and Google Services. Moving from Linux doesnt mean replacing the Runtime or Services. Completely separate layers. Oracles disupte is over the Runtime not Linux.
- tootie 8y ago
  That first mistake isn't in the article anymore, but the second is.
caycep 8y ago
This has been percolating along for a few years, no? I remember hearing vague announcements about a Fuchsia project for a while.
- notatoad 8y ago
  I don't think there's been much in the way of announcements, but yes, this has been in progress for a few years. It's being developed in the open, with a public github repo.
  - Matthias247 8y ago
    The source code in the open is one thing. However there are not a lot of design documents or discussions visible for the public. Therefore it's hard to follow the development and really getting an idea where the project is heading.
    - aidenn0 8y ago
      This was actually the main point of The Cathedral and the Bazaar; GNU was the Cathedral...
eej71 8y ago
Is it fair to describe this as a rewrite from scratch kind of project?
- notatoad 8y ago
  no. it's not a rewrite of android, or (at this point) android-compatible in any way. it's a brand new operating system that google is experimenting with.
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    It will need some form of compatibility to get a foothold in the market, though.
    - notatoad 8y ago
      From what I can tell, the compatibility plan is to market flutter/dart as a cross-platform development toolkit for Android and iOS. Fuchsia won't run android apps, but fuchsia apps will run on Android and iOS.
      - sturmen 8y ago
        There is some signal[1] that maybe Fuchsia as an OS will support Android apps out of the box. As I'm sure we both know though, ANYTHING can happen between now and the ship date. [1] https://9to5google.com/2018/04/26/fuchsia-android-runtime-appears/ https://9to5google.com/2018/04/26/fuchsia-android-runtime-ap...
      - oscargrouch 8y ago
        If you check the Zircon repo, you will see that they are backing in a linux virtualization layer in the kernel, so i imagine they will use that to bootstrap android linux apps in Fuchsia as a staging process, until android apps are completely native in a second phase. Chrome OS already runs Android, so it would be a matter of stitching the Chrome os shell into Fuchsia to have both running in Fuchsia. First with virtualization of Linux, and later without it.
wpdev_63 8y ago
I am really surprised Microsoft isn't doing something like this. They are losing the OS war.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  They've already tried. There's no interest currently for a 3rd also-ran OS, especially from a vendor that would be changing up the toolkit yet again.
  - Splognosticus 8y ago
    They're on like their fourth attempt, aren't they? They tried Pen Windows, then Windows CE and its derivatives, then there was the ARM version of Windows 8, and now they're hoping Intel tablets running Windows 10 can become a thing.
- karmakaze 8y ago
  If Fushia/Flutter gets adopted, it would be a better outcome than MS botched effort with universal desktop/mobile apps. The fragmented tooling and support was like it was made by sales/marketing types rather than engineers.
  - karmakaze 8y ago
    Has anyone here had a good experience making a single UWP app for both mobile and desktop?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  They're taking a different approach. They're positioning .NET to be the Platform regardless of the underlying Hardware/OS.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Not really, they are winning the desktop and tablets (2-1) war. Desktops aren't going away, and Macs are pretty much an US phenomenon, alongside a couple of other countries. Likewise, Android tablets aren't that good, with most of the apps being phone apps. Google now is playing with ChromeOS for tablets, which also remains to be seen where it goes. So, most consumer shops around here are now mostly selling iPads and Windows 10 tablets.
losvedir 8y ago
I wrote a small Flutter app recently and rather enjoyed the experience. I'm reluctant to spend more time on the technology, though, since it seems like it has a high chance of dying out. But as I understand it, Fuchsia would have native apps written using Flutter as well, which would be great, so I really hope it does take off.
- myth_drannon 8y ago
  Why do you think it has a high chance of dying?
  - jonny_eh 8y ago
    It's based on Dart, a language that already failed to take off in browsers? Just a guess.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      I think it's more of an issue with it coming from and being maintained by Google. I think aversion to Dart is overrated; it's a boringly stable and straightforward language, and I'm puzzled that mobile developers aren't more open to learning it, given how Objective-C/Swift/Kotlin were languages that most had to learn for developing on their respective smartphone.
ucaetano 8y ago
Quietly? The entire development has been public, hasn't it?
- hughes 8y ago
  Something can be both quiet and public.
kbumsik 8y ago
> "Switching away from Android could provide Google the opportunity to hit the reset button on any mistakes they believe they made a decade ago,". "They might be able to regain some power that they’ve ceded to device manufacturers and telecom carriers." How making a new OS achive this? What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? I personally hope Fuchsia would remain as an experimental project. A new non-GPL OS by a big player like Google is a bad news for hardware dev and enthusiasts from XDA. This will make hardware driver developments more fragmented and closed-source. Smartphone manufacturers are trying to hide their kernel and device drivers, even they are using Linux. Imagine there are no legal restrictions to hide those.
- kyrra 8y ago
  One of Android's major headaches is that Linux does not have a stable driver interface. Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. If you maintain a driver outside of that tree, you will experience pain. That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed (and why doing OS updates for phones was so hard). Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0], which will make many more phones get OS updates going forward. So Android has attempted to work around one of linux major problems. Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures. It's design and focus continues to go that way. This has impact across an entire range of functionality that an OS is supposed to bring. Fuschia seems to be a research project with a focus on mobile/laptop type devices. It could care less about server type environments, which lets it make different tradeoffs in design. [0] https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/ https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/
  - endorphone 8y ago
    "That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed " Android changed Linux kernels with every single release, from 2.6.27 to 4.10 by core release, and vendors often update kernels incrementally in between. Any driver issues are trivial to change presuming they didn't come in a binary blob and the source refused any further changes, which is supposedly the case with Qualcomm hardware in the Nexus 6, for instance. "Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0]" Treble is about the intra-Android interfaces, not Linux device interfaces. This is about Google doing large scale, breaking changes that made vendors just throw up their hands. "Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures" Nope. The reality is that everyone always thinks they can rebuild it better. Second (Third, Fourth, etc) system effect. It the very basis of NIH syndrome. So some small group at Google wants to research OS'. Whatever. The likelihood that this replaces Android, or that it is in anyone's imaginations that it actually will besides content writers outside of Google, seems very low.
zellyn 8y ago
For those of you who want more information, and especially more accurate information, check out Fuchsia Fridays: https://9to5google.com/guides/fuchsia-friday/ https://9to5google.com/guides/fuchsia-friday/
- Skylled 8y ago
  Thanks for your support.
forapurpose 8y ago
I've been wondering why so many Bloomberg articles have been on the front page recently, maybe in the last 3-6 months. This OP seems like a good example because there has been coverage of Fuchsia from more technical sources for awhile and I doubt the Bloomberg article adds much. Or is the change in frequency of Bloomberg posts just a misperception on my part? I don't have any data.
- Dunedan 8y ago
  I also have the feeling that the amount of links to Bloomberg articles on HN significantly increased in the past months. I'm not a fan of that though, because Bloomberg articles seldomly cover really new topics or add in-depth information. Which is fine, as Bloomberg's audience is a different one than HN's, isn't it?
  - jasonvorhe 8y ago
    Well, at least they're quoting and Google source with specifics instead of just relying on source code, docs and speculation.
    - Skylled 8y ago
      I'll trust code over an anonymous comment any day. But maybe I'm biased. If you see speculation in a Fuchsia Friday article that you disagree with, I'm always open to intelligent discussion.
      - sharcerer 8y ago
        Fuschia Friday is no doubt the most comprehensive Fuschia coverage on planet right now.
- Shooti 8y ago
  Due to Mark Gurmans track record a Bloomberg rumor on a tech companies future plans for a product are almost as trustworthy as official PR from the company. More leaks = more representation on HN.
jokoon 8y ago
Apparently it uses a micro kernel, zircon. I'm curious about this kernel, honestly making something new from the ground up doesn't seem like a good idea. I wonder how much of an advantage it was for android to use linux as a kernel, but I guess it was a gigantic advantage, which let them focus on what mattered in the development of android. Other question: any kernel/OS developer here to explain if a micro kernel makes his job easier or harder? Having the flexibility of a micro kernel seems good, but I'm not sure it's that much important.
- sergiomattei 8y ago
  Eventually it turned into a disadvantage for them, as chip vendors nowadays ship extremely outdated and insecure versions of Linux and the driver model doesn't allow for frequent updates. They made a step in the right direction with Project Treble though.
- Symmetry 8y ago
  I think the idea is to let phone developers create drivers and then ignore them while Google is still able to update the rest of the OS around them.
- MayeulC 8y ago
  > making something new from the ground up doesn't seem like a good idea. It isn't actually terribly difficult, the most difficult part being driver support. By using Linux as a base, Google gained a lot of driver support by default, among other things like a well-known base environment. > explain if a micro kernel makes his job easier or harder Well, a microkernel usually has well-defined interfaces that allow drivers to communicate with the kernel, instead of these interfaces being decided by the compiler at compile-time. This in turn offers the guarantees of "ABI/API stability" that the Linux kernel usually offers to userspace programs: drivers don't need to be recompiled to work with a new kernel, so you can actually have binary drivers that continue to "work" long after the vendor stopped working on them. This also offers more room for stability guarantees (a driver that crashes can be restarted, as it's not the kernel panicking), and security (drivers don't have access to each other's data). On the other hand, you trade a bit of performance and flexibility (from the developer's perspective) for this, by committing not to break compatibility. By now, advantages and inconvenient of microkernels vs monolithic ones are well understood and documented. What's in for Google is mostly licensing-related: since they're making it; they are free to pick their favourite license. And I am pretty sure Google has been uncomfortable with the GPL for a while now. The same could be said about its hardware partners, and manufacturers that have to provide the source code for their drivers (when they comply at all). Since a GPL kernel is one of the best things that happened to Android so far (allowing custom roms, open source projects, more transparency), I am extremely weary of fuschia, and looking forward to postmarketos as an alternative to android.
infinity0 8y ago
Oh so that's what the rust crates fuchsia-zircon and fuchsia-zircon-sys are for. They are dependencies of the mio and rand crates. Cargo.toml links to https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/garnet/ https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/garnet/
drewda 8y ago
> "The company must also settle some internal feuds. Some of the principles that Fuchsia creators are pursuing have already run up against Google’s business model. Google’s ads business relies on an ability to target users based on their location and activity, and Fuchsia’s nascent privacy features would, if implemented, hamstring this important business. There’s already been at least one clash between advertising and engineering over security and privacy features of the fledgling operating system, according to a person familiar with the matter. The ad team prevailed, this person said."
- eganist 8y ago
  > The ad team prevailed, this person said. Of course they did. A controversial idea, but you know how much easier this would be for everyone if Google offered an option for users to be paid for volunteering your information to them? It's a precedent most fledgling ad companies wouldn't be able to match... even if it's just a few dollars a month, or maybe 30ish bucks a year. It'd cut into Google's bottom line, but it would eradicate the competition. And then on top of that, you've got the security and privacy wins by baking the product to be secure by default but allowing consumers to accept a paycheck to disable some of it for Google. That risk calculus works for plenty of people (if not for myself). Google's wins: • Security and Privacy by default • Dismantling start-up competition who can't afford to pay for the data they harvest • Growing marketshare. Drawbacks: • Immediate hit to Google's revenue stream • Permanent assignment of value to data in the perception of consumers The only big outstanding risk would be posed by rivals with large warchests able to subsidize a similar payment scheme, but honestly once that's done, the winner is a public which now has the ability to monetize their data.
  - epicide 8y ago
    What would be better is the ability to pay for Google not to sell your data. However, the new problem would be making sure they aren't selling your data, anyway.
    - judge2020 8y ago
      Google Contributor: https://contributor.google.com/v/marketing https://contributor.google.com/v/marketing
_bxg1 8y ago
Here's a more thorough and technical overview: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/googles-fuchsia-os-on-the-pixelbook-it-works-it-actually-works/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/googles-fuchsia-os-o...
jasonmp85 8y ago
Did anyone think maybe using a pinkish shade for a Second System codename is asking for it to fail? Apple had a Project Pink back in '88 to be the successor to System Software 6. They hoped to release it in 1993, instead buying NeXT in 1997 and launching OS X in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)#Pink_and_Blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)#Pin... Microsoft's Project Pink was the result of their Danger acquisition. It didn't fare well either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin I wish Google the best of luck.
- bitmapbrother 8y ago
  The Fuchsia name is derived from projects the primary Fuchsia OS developers previously worked on at Apple - Project Pink and Project Purple. Pink + Purple = Fuchsia.
bitmapbrother 8y ago
This article seems to have gone through multiple edits to correct all of the incorrect technical facts, but it looks like they still have work to do. Shifting away from using Linux would help Google’s legal case that its software isn’t reliant on Oracle.
- abvdasker 8y ago
  Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is distributed by Oracle Corp. Yeah this is totally wrong.
remir 8y ago
"One person who has spoken to Fuchsia staff described the effort simply: "It’s a senior-engineer retention project." This has been my therory for a while. You see all these different projects competing against each other (multiple messaging apps are a good example) and you think: why is Google so unfocused? But what Google basically wants to do is hoard engineers so they don't leave and go work for competitors and make them stronger (or start their own companies that could compete against Google). So Google's management figured out that if they give these enginners some cool stuff to work on, they'll stay at the company, even if the stuff they work on is a duplicate of something else the company has already done.
- AFNobody 8y ago
  Yup and if it turns out there are advantages to transition it into a real project.
- refulgentis 8y ago
  Different sources will have different spins. Surely the Fuchsia team wouldn't think they're in glorified daycare, it's unlikely their superiors would tell journalists they are.
- kettlecorn 8y ago
  I think Google's self-competition is something they are doing strategically. If you look at the industry as a whole products wax and wane based on market trends. Market leading products often struggle to innovate under the weight of their own success and are eventually replaced by a new innovator that's doing something right. Google, by virtue of creating many different types of products in one category somewhat insulates themselves from this effect. They have effectively infinite money, so from their perspective they can somewhat emulate the greater market internally. They can let "startup" style teams form internally so if someone supplants one of Google's products, it's likely to be a Google team. There are significant downsides to this (eroding consumer trust) which may take their toll on Google with time.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    Having multiple competing projects is not unheard of in the business world in general, and in high-achieving technology businesses in particular. Often, those outside the organization are only aware of the winning project, and the others are quietly discontinued, with many / most / all members moving to the winning team. I know of several other prominent examples, but can't mention by name because I'd be breaking an NDA. Also, Fuchsia is a successor, not a competing project, strictly speaking. It would be the "gauntlet" scenario if Google was running multiple ongoing projects all competing to "inherit" Android (which quite possible it does...)
antoinevg 8y ago
Bwauhahahaha.
martin1975 8y ago
I can already hear professor Tanenbaum's evil laughter, followed by "I told you so" :) Although for the life of me, I cannot figure out why Google suffers so hard from NIH syndrome and didn't go with something like seL4/Genode. Do they just want control of absolutely everything they touch?
- tonfa 8y ago
  I thought they started from an existing microkernel actually.
techsin101 8y ago
Someone please answer this... I want to learn this. Fuschia is getting swift support Flutter runs on fuschia Flutter uses dart Do I learn dart or swift, personally I want to learn swift. Flutter only supports dart??? Fuschia supports swift Is flutter going to support swift
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  > Do I learn dart or swift I'm not terribly familiar with the landscape, but my suggestion is broadly applicable: learn both. A developer shouldn't be constrained to a single language. Pick the one that's suitable for the project you want to work on. For the next project, do the same. In my experience you'll find it progressively easier to pick up new languages (and stacks, and paradigms, etc.) each time you do it. IMO, a developer's goal should be to understand and implement design patterns, not individual languages. ... and for the record, I say this as someone who prefers a single language (Python) to all others I've encountered.
- 5thbootloader 8y ago
  Learn dart instead of swift.
- Skylled 8y ago
  You can write software for Fuchsia without using Flutter, but Flutter is the most friendly way at present. In a basic sense, Flutter is based in Dart, but if you want to call into another language like Swift, there is a way to do so, called FIDL. I'm not sure if Swift has FIDL bindings yet, but I'm sure that it and many other languages will, in time. Even today Flutter has support for Swift code on iOS the same way it supports ObjC, via MethodChannels. (This is also true for Java and Kotlin code on Android.)
  - mitochondrion 8y ago
    Have you encountered Julia, and if so, what did you think of it?
    - 8y ago
zapita 8y ago
> Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android So quietly that they pitched a story about it to Bloomberg.
- ant6n 8y ago
  So quietly, it's almost nefarious
67_45 8y ago
A lot of people say that this is an illusion of some kind -- not a serious effort to replace Android. I don't get it because Android sucks and even if this were an engineer retention project, if they finish it then what harm is there in deploying it?
robocat 8y ago
Surely Google are setting themselves up for another $5G EU antitrust fine? I thought one of the core reasons for the fine was the restriction in the Mobile Applications Distribution Agreement that a company couldn't develop a competing OS... Yet Google is? Alternatively they will use it as the core for a new "Nexus" line to compete with Apple, and not licence Fuscia as a platform (avoiding dominance of the mobile "Platform Market" by doing what Apple are doing).
- rlac16 8y ago
  There was no absolute restriction on developing a competing OS (Samsung does it with Tizen for example). My understanding is that the restriction was on forking the Android codebase and shipping an OS based on that without the Play Store (you would then lose your Play Store license on all devices). Even then I'm not sure whether it's as strict as that, considering Xiaomi and others do it.
endlessvoid94 8y ago
PR piece = "quietly"
jmull 8y ago
It sounds very unlikely Fuchsia will replace Android or Chrome OS. They list a bunch of Android issues, but which of these can’t be addressed more incrementally through Android? Google probably needs fewer OSs, not more. The idea that this is a senior engineer retention project is what actually makes sense. I think it will probably yield some useful results that can be harvested for their other systems, or perhaps it can fill a niche not already well fillled.
c0d3man 8y ago
No matter what, We must need a new OS, encompassing big screen devices as well as small IOT devices. No more JAVA and JVM. I had loved it for 15 years but now I hate it most; I am sick and tired of developing Android because of the huge fragmentation and poor compatibility of different screen sizes. Now is a little bit better than before in terms of that but the fundamental issue cannot be fixed from the root core unless the kernel and android jvm are replaced. Some Googler said "Android system was wrong from the beginning". I would love to see Fuchsia in real as soon as possible. I've recently learnt Flutter, which is going to become the primary User interface SDK/framework of Fuchsia. I recommend you guys to learn Dart and Flutter if you are a UI developer. Be leaders of them. In a nutshell, Fu[lutter/chsia] is the future for mobile/embedded developers over the next 30 years in this AI/IoT era.

180 points by uptown 8y ago

This Bloomberg article has several shortcomings. 1. "Android and Chrome OS are built on Linux, a widely used open-source programming language." Here they mix up the Linux kernel with the Java programming language. 2. "Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is owned by Oracle Corp., is at the center of a lengthy, bitter lawsuit between the two companies. Shifting away from using Linux would help Google’s legal case that its software isn’t reliant on Oracle." While here they mix up the Java programming language with the Linux kernel.

gizmo385 8y ago
Imagine the horrors if Oracle "owned" Linux...
- devmunchies 8y ago
  Then I’m sure Unix or FreeBSD would be more prevalent for servers.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Well, they did their share of contributions http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/linux/technical-contributions-1689636.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/linux/techn... As for Java, if Google actually cared to get away with their actions, they could have bought Sun. Surely it would have been cheaper than what they already paied their lawyers.
- zhengyi13 8y ago
  Well, SCO certainly tried to make that claim.
- deaddodo 8y ago
  Well, they did build JavaOS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS
yemich 8y ago
1. No they didn't. They incorrectly used the word language instead of Kernel. Chrome Os is not built with Java. 2. Correct
geocar 8y ago
> Here they mix up the Linux kernel with the Java programming language. I parsed that comma as an "and". > While here they mix up the Java programming language with the Linux kernel. Did they? It might be implied that Google is dropping Java as well. Indeed other sources seem to suggest this is their strategy[1], [2], [3], [4] My experiences with Bloomberg writers is that they're not lazy, but they elide a great deal of specificity to focus on the business effects and brands instead of technical bits and bobs. [1]: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/21/android_the_next_10_years/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/21/android_the_next_10... [2]: https://www.quora.com/Is-Google-implictly-going-to-drop-Java-and-use-Kotlin-for-Android-due-to-licensing-issues-with-Oracle https://www.quora.com/Is-Google-implictly-going-to-drop-Java... [3]: https://rethinkresearch.biz/articles/google-reveals-more-fuchsia-in-wake-of-oracle-java-legal-defeat/ https://rethinkresearch.biz/articles/google-reveals-more-fuc... [4]: https://www.androidauthority.com/we-compiled-fuchsia-os-710491/ https://www.androidauthority.com/we-compiled-fuchsia-os-7104...
basch 8y ago
I agree. Some other snippets > In the code pages, the Googlers working on Fuchsia specify that the software is not finalized. Really, that needed to be said? An operating system with no practical use or implementation isnt finished? None of the ones in mass use right now are "finished." >This means Google’s latest services only reach a fraction of Android users. Google Play Services were split out from the OS back in 2013. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-s... The author repeatedly tries to paint Android as a monolith held back by hardware manufacturers, and google, for the most part has split what we know as Android into two layers, and has fullll control of one of those two. >"Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is distributed by Oracle Corp., is at the center of a lengthy, bitter lawsuit between the two companies. Android was also built using Java software technology, which Oracle owns and has claimed Google stole to shore up its mobile business." Even after a correction, the article still claims Oracle has sued Google over Linux! (Not sure if your copy/paste is from after the correction.) The author demonstrates no understanding of the difference between the Linux Kernel, Common Libraries, Android Runtime, Android Application Framework, and Google Services. Moving from Linux doesnt mean replacing the Runtime or Services. Completely separate layers. Oracles disupte is over the Runtime not Linux.
tootie 8y ago
That first mistake isn't in the article anymore, but the second is.

caycep 8y ago

This has been percolating along for a few years, no? I remember hearing vague announcements about a Fuchsia project for a while.

notatoad 8y ago
I don't think there's been much in the way of announcements, but yes, this has been in progress for a few years. It's being developed in the open, with a public github repo.
- Matthias247 8y ago
  The source code in the open is one thing. However there are not a lot of design documents or discussions visible for the public. Therefore it's hard to follow the development and really getting an idea where the project is heading.
  - aidenn0 8y ago
    This was actually the main point of The Cathedral and the Bazaar; GNU was the Cathedral...

eej71 8y ago

Is it fair to describe this as a rewrite from scratch kind of project?

notatoad 8y ago
no. it's not a rewrite of android, or (at this point) android-compatible in any way. it's a brand new operating system that google is experimenting with.
- gmueckl 8y ago
  It will need some form of compatibility to get a foothold in the market, though.
  - notatoad 8y ago
    From what I can tell, the compatibility plan is to market flutter/dart as a cross-platform development toolkit for Android and iOS. Fuchsia won't run android apps, but fuchsia apps will run on Android and iOS.
    - sturmen 8y ago
      There is some signal[1] that maybe Fuchsia as an OS will support Android apps out of the box. As I'm sure we both know though, ANYTHING can happen between now and the ship date. [1] https://9to5google.com/2018/04/26/fuchsia-android-runtime-appears/ https://9to5google.com/2018/04/26/fuchsia-android-runtime-ap...
    - oscargrouch 8y ago
      If you check the Zircon repo, you will see that they are backing in a linux virtualization layer in the kernel, so i imagine they will use that to bootstrap android linux apps in Fuchsia as a staging process, until android apps are completely native in a second phase. Chrome OS already runs Android, so it would be a matter of stitching the Chrome os shell into Fuchsia to have both running in Fuchsia. First with virtualization of Linux, and later without it.

wpdev_63 8y ago

I am really surprised Microsoft isn't doing something like this. They are losing the OS war.

s73v3r_ 8y ago
They've already tried. There's no interest currently for a 3rd also-ran OS, especially from a vendor that would be changing up the toolkit yet again.
- Splognosticus 8y ago
  They're on like their fourth attempt, aren't they? They tried Pen Windows, then Windows CE and its derivatives, then there was the ARM version of Windows 8, and now they're hoping Intel tablets running Windows 10 can become a thing.
karmakaze 8y ago
If Fushia/Flutter gets adopted, it would be a better outcome than MS botched effort with universal desktop/mobile apps. The fragmented tooling and support was like it was made by sales/marketing types rather than engineers.
- karmakaze 8y ago
  Has anyone here had a good experience making a single UWP app for both mobile and desktop?
cptskippy 8y ago
They're taking a different approach. They're positioning .NET to be the Platform regardless of the underlying Hardware/OS.
pjmlp 8y ago
Not really, they are winning the desktop and tablets (2-1) war. Desktops aren't going away, and Macs are pretty much an US phenomenon, alongside a couple of other countries. Likewise, Android tablets aren't that good, with most of the apps being phone apps. Google now is playing with ChromeOS for tablets, which also remains to be seen where it goes. So, most consumer shops around here are now mostly selling iPads and Windows 10 tablets.

losvedir 8y ago

I wrote a small Flutter app recently and rather enjoyed the experience. I'm reluctant to spend more time on the technology, though, since it seems like it has a high chance of dying out. But as I understand it, Fuchsia would have native apps written using Flutter as well, which would be great, so I really hope it does take off.

myth_drannon 8y ago
Why do you think it has a high chance of dying?
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  It's based on Dart, a language that already failed to take off in browsers? Just a guess.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    I think it's more of an issue with it coming from and being maintained by Google. I think aversion to Dart is overrated; it's a boringly stable and straightforward language, and I'm puzzled that mobile developers aren't more open to learning it, given how Objective-C/Swift/Kotlin were languages that most had to learn for developing on their respective smartphone.

ucaetano 8y ago

Quietly? The entire development has been public, hasn't it?

hughes 8y ago
Something can be both quiet and public.

kbumsik 8y ago

> "Switching away from Android could provide Google the opportunity to hit the reset button on any mistakes they believe they made a decade ago,". "They might be able to regain some power that they’ve ceded to device manufacturers and telecom carriers." How making a new OS achive this? What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? I personally hope Fuchsia would remain as an experimental project. A new non-GPL OS by a big player like Google is a bad news for hardware dev and enthusiasts from XDA. This will make hardware driver developments more fragmented and closed-source. Smartphone manufacturers are trying to hide their kernel and device drivers, even they are using Linux. Imagine there are no legal restrictions to hide those.

kyrra 8y ago
One of Android's major headaches is that Linux does not have a stable driver interface. Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. If you maintain a driver outside of that tree, you will experience pain. That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed (and why doing OS updates for phones was so hard). Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0], which will make many more phones get OS updates going forward. So Android has attempted to work around one of linux major problems. Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures. It's design and focus continues to go that way. This has impact across an entire range of functionality that an OS is supposed to bring. Fuschia seems to be a research project with a focus on mobile/laptop type devices. It could care less about server type environments, which lets it make different tradeoffs in design. [0] https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/ https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/
- endorphone 8y ago
  "That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed " Android changed Linux kernels with every single release, from 2.6.27 to 4.10 by core release, and vendors often update kernels incrementally in between. Any driver issues are trivial to change presuming they didn't come in a binary blob and the source refused any further changes, which is supposedly the case with Qualcomm hardware in the Nexus 6, for instance. "Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0]" Treble is about the intra-Android interfaces, not Linux device interfaces. This is about Google doing large scale, breaking changes that made vendors just throw up their hands. "Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures" Nope. The reality is that everyone always thinks they can rebuild it better. Second (Third, Fourth, etc) system effect. It the very basis of NIH syndrome. So some small group at Google wants to research OS'. Whatever. The likelihood that this replaces Android, or that it is in anyone's imaginations that it actually will besides content writers outside of Google, seems very low.

zellyn 8y ago

For those of you who want more information, and especially more accurate information, check out Fuchsia Fridays: https://9to5google.com/guides/fuchsia-friday/ https://9to5google.com/guides/fuchsia-friday/

Skylled 8y ago
Thanks for your support.

forapurpose 8y ago

I've been wondering why so many Bloomberg articles have been on the front page recently, maybe in the last 3-6 months. This OP seems like a good example because there has been coverage of Fuchsia from more technical sources for awhile and I doubt the Bloomberg article adds much. Or is the change in frequency of Bloomberg posts just a misperception on my part? I don't have any data.

Dunedan 8y ago
I also have the feeling that the amount of links to Bloomberg articles on HN significantly increased in the past months. I'm not a fan of that though, because Bloomberg articles seldomly cover really new topics or add in-depth information. Which is fine, as Bloomberg's audience is a different one than HN's, isn't it?
- jasonvorhe 8y ago
  Well, at least they're quoting and Google source with specifics instead of just relying on source code, docs and speculation.
  - Skylled 8y ago
    I'll trust code over an anonymous comment any day. But maybe I'm biased. If you see speculation in a Fuchsia Friday article that you disagree with, I'm always open to intelligent discussion.
    - sharcerer 8y ago
      Fuschia Friday is no doubt the most comprehensive Fuschia coverage on planet right now.
Shooti 8y ago
Due to Mark Gurmans track record a Bloomberg rumor on a tech companies future plans for a product are almost as trustworthy as official PR from the company. More leaks = more representation on HN.

jokoon 8y ago

Apparently it uses a micro kernel, zircon. I'm curious about this kernel, honestly making something new from the ground up doesn't seem like a good idea. I wonder how much of an advantage it was for android to use linux as a kernel, but I guess it was a gigantic advantage, which let them focus on what mattered in the development of android. Other question: any kernel/OS developer here to explain if a micro kernel makes his job easier or harder? Having the flexibility of a micro kernel seems good, but I'm not sure it's that much important.

sergiomattei 8y ago
Eventually it turned into a disadvantage for them, as chip vendors nowadays ship extremely outdated and insecure versions of Linux and the driver model doesn't allow for frequent updates. They made a step in the right direction with Project Treble though.
Symmetry 8y ago
I think the idea is to let phone developers create drivers and then ignore them while Google is still able to update the rest of the OS around them.
MayeulC 8y ago
> making something new from the ground up doesn't seem like a good idea. It isn't actually terribly difficult, the most difficult part being driver support. By using Linux as a base, Google gained a lot of driver support by default, among other things like a well-known base environment. > explain if a micro kernel makes his job easier or harder Well, a microkernel usually has well-defined interfaces that allow drivers to communicate with the kernel, instead of these interfaces being decided by the compiler at compile-time. This in turn offers the guarantees of "ABI/API stability" that the Linux kernel usually offers to userspace programs: drivers don't need to be recompiled to work with a new kernel, so you can actually have binary drivers that continue to "work" long after the vendor stopped working on them. This also offers more room for stability guarantees (a driver that crashes can be restarted, as it's not the kernel panicking), and security (drivers don't have access to each other's data). On the other hand, you trade a bit of performance and flexibility (from the developer's perspective) for this, by committing not to break compatibility. By now, advantages and inconvenient of microkernels vs monolithic ones are well understood and documented. What's in for Google is mostly licensing-related: since they're making it; they are free to pick their favourite license. And I am pretty sure Google has been uncomfortable with the GPL for a while now. The same could be said about its hardware partners, and manufacturers that have to provide the source code for their drivers (when they comply at all). Since a GPL kernel is one of the best things that happened to Android so far (allowing custom roms, open source projects, more transparency), I am extremely weary of fuschia, and looking forward to postmarketos as an alternative to android.

infinity0 8y ago

Oh so that's what the rust crates fuchsia-zircon and fuchsia-zircon-sys are for. They are dependencies of the mio and rand crates. Cargo.toml links to https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/garnet/ https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/garnet/

drewda 8y ago

> "The company must also settle some internal feuds. Some of the principles that Fuchsia creators are pursuing have already run up against Google’s business model. Google’s ads business relies on an ability to target users based on their location and activity, and Fuchsia’s nascent privacy features would, if implemented, hamstring this important business. There’s already been at least one clash between advertising and engineering over security and privacy features of the fledgling operating system, according to a person familiar with the matter. The ad team prevailed, this person said."

eganist 8y ago
> The ad team prevailed, this person said. Of course they did. A controversial idea, but you know how much easier this would be for everyone if Google offered an option for users to be paid for volunteering your information to them? It's a precedent most fledgling ad companies wouldn't be able to match... even if it's just a few dollars a month, or maybe 30ish bucks a year. It'd cut into Google's bottom line, but it would eradicate the competition. And then on top of that, you've got the security and privacy wins by baking the product to be secure by default but allowing consumers to accept a paycheck to disable some of it for Google. That risk calculus works for plenty of people (if not for myself). Google's wins: • Security and Privacy by default • Dismantling start-up competition who can't afford to pay for the data they harvest • Growing marketshare. Drawbacks: • Immediate hit to Google's revenue stream • Permanent assignment of value to data in the perception of consumers The only big outstanding risk would be posed by rivals with large warchests able to subsidize a similar payment scheme, but honestly once that's done, the winner is a public which now has the ability to monetize their data.
- epicide 8y ago
  What would be better is the ability to pay for Google not to sell your data. However, the new problem would be making sure they aren't selling your data, anyway.
  - judge2020 8y ago
    Google Contributor: https://contributor.google.com/v/marketing https://contributor.google.com/v/marketing

_bxg1 8y ago

Here's a more thorough and technical overview: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/googles-fuchsia-os-on-the-pixelbook-it-works-it-actually-works/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/googles-fuchsia-os-o...

jasonmp85 8y ago

Did anyone think maybe using a pinkish shade for a Second System codename is asking for it to fail? Apple had a Project Pink back in '88 to be the successor to System Software 6. They hoped to release it in 1993, instead buying NeXT in 1997 and launching OS X in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)#Pink_and_Blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)#Pin... Microsoft's Project Pink was the result of their Danger acquisition. It didn't fare well either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin I wish Google the best of luck.

bitmapbrother 8y ago
The Fuchsia name is derived from projects the primary Fuchsia OS developers previously worked on at Apple - Project Pink and Project Purple. Pink + Purple = Fuchsia.

bitmapbrother 8y ago

This article seems to have gone through multiple edits to correct all of the incorrect technical facts, but it looks like they still have work to do. Shifting away from using Linux would help Google’s legal case that its software isn’t reliant on Oracle.

abvdasker 8y ago
Moving from Linux, though, could have upsides for Google. Android’s use of the technology, which is distributed by Oracle Corp. Yeah this is totally wrong.

remir 8y ago

"One person who has spoken to Fuchsia staff described the effort simply: "It’s a senior-engineer retention project." This has been my therory for a while. You see all these different projects competing against each other (multiple messaging apps are a good example) and you think: why is Google so unfocused? But what Google basically wants to do is hoard engineers so they don't leave and go work for competitors and make them stronger (or start their own companies that could compete against Google). So Google's management figured out that if they give these enginners some cool stuff to work on, they'll stay at the company, even if the stuff they work on is a duplicate of something else the company has already done.

AFNobody 8y ago
Yup and if it turns out there are advantages to transition it into a real project.
refulgentis 8y ago
Different sources will have different spins. Surely the Fuchsia team wouldn't think they're in glorified daycare, it's unlikely their superiors would tell journalists they are.
kettlecorn 8y ago
I think Google's self-competition is something they are doing strategically. If you look at the industry as a whole products wax and wane based on market trends. Market leading products often struggle to innovate under the weight of their own success and are eventually replaced by a new innovator that's doing something right. Google, by virtue of creating many different types of products in one category somewhat insulates themselves from this effect. They have effectively infinite money, so from their perspective they can somewhat emulate the greater market internally. They can let "startup" style teams form internally so if someone supplants one of Google's products, it's likely to be a Google team. There are significant downsides to this (eroding consumer trust) which may take their toll on Google with time.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  Having multiple competing projects is not unheard of in the business world in general, and in high-achieving technology businesses in particular. Often, those outside the organization are only aware of the winning project, and the others are quietly discontinued, with many / most / all members moving to the winning team. I know of several other prominent examples, but can't mention by name because I'd be breaking an NDA. Also, Fuchsia is a successor, not a competing project, strictly speaking. It would be the "gauntlet" scenario if Google was running multiple ongoing projects all competing to "inherit" Android (which quite possible it does...)

antoinevg 8y ago

Bwauhahahaha.

martin1975 8y ago

I can already hear professor Tanenbaum's evil laughter, followed by "I told you so" :) Although for the life of me, I cannot figure out why Google suffers so hard from NIH syndrome and didn't go with something like seL4/Genode. Do they just want control of absolutely everything they touch?

tonfa 8y ago
I thought they started from an existing microkernel actually.

techsin101 8y ago

Someone please answer this... I want to learn this. Fuschia is getting swift support Flutter runs on fuschia Flutter uses dart Do I learn dart or swift, personally I want to learn swift. Flutter only supports dart??? Fuschia supports swift Is flutter going to support swift

LyndsySimon 8y ago
> Do I learn dart or swift I'm not terribly familiar with the landscape, but my suggestion is broadly applicable: learn both. A developer shouldn't be constrained to a single language. Pick the one that's suitable for the project you want to work on. For the next project, do the same. In my experience you'll find it progressively easier to pick up new languages (and stacks, and paradigms, etc.) each time you do it. IMO, a developer's goal should be to understand and implement design patterns, not individual languages. ... and for the record, I say this as someone who prefers a single language (Python) to all others I've encountered.
5thbootloader 8y ago
Learn dart instead of swift.
Skylled 8y ago
You can write software for Fuchsia without using Flutter, but Flutter is the most friendly way at present. In a basic sense, Flutter is based in Dart, but if you want to call into another language like Swift, there is a way to do so, called FIDL. I'm not sure if Swift has FIDL bindings yet, but I'm sure that it and many other languages will, in time. Even today Flutter has support for Swift code on iOS the same way it supports ObjC, via MethodChannels. (This is also true for Java and Kotlin code on Android.)
- mitochondrion 8y ago
  Have you encountered Julia, and if so, what did you think of it?
  - 8y ago

zapita 8y ago

> Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android So quietly that they pitched a story about it to Bloomberg.

ant6n 8y ago
So quietly, it's almost nefarious

67_45 8y ago

A lot of people say that this is an illusion of some kind -- not a serious effort to replace Android. I don't get it because Android sucks and even if this were an engineer retention project, if they finish it then what harm is there in deploying it?

robocat 8y ago

Surely Google are setting themselves up for another $5G EU antitrust fine? I thought one of the core reasons for the fine was the restriction in the Mobile Applications Distribution Agreement that a company couldn't develop a competing OS... Yet Google is? Alternatively they will use it as the core for a new "Nexus" line to compete with Apple, and not licence Fuscia as a platform (avoiding dominance of the mobile "Platform Market" by doing what Apple are doing).

rlac16 8y ago
There was no absolute restriction on developing a competing OS (Samsung does it with Tizen for example). My understanding is that the restriction was on forking the Android codebase and shipping an OS based on that without the Play Store (you would then lose your Play Store license on all devices). Even then I'm not sure whether it's as strict as that, considering Xiaomi and others do it.

endlessvoid94 8y ago

PR piece = "quietly"

jmull 8y ago

It sounds very unlikely Fuchsia will replace Android or Chrome OS. They list a bunch of Android issues, but which of these can’t be addressed more incrementally through Android? Google probably needs fewer OSs, not more. The idea that this is a senior engineer retention project is what actually makes sense. I think it will probably yield some useful results that can be harvested for their other systems, or perhaps it can fill a niche not already well fillled.

c0d3man 8y ago

No matter what, We must need a new OS, encompassing big screen devices as well as small IOT devices. No more JAVA and JVM. I had loved it for 15 years but now I hate it most; I am sick and tired of developing Android because of the huge fragmentation and poor compatibility of different screen sizes. Now is a little bit better than before in terms of that but the fundamental issue cannot be fixed from the root core unless the kernel and android jvm are replaced. Some Googler said "Android system was wrong from the beginning". I would love to see Fuchsia in real as soon as possible. I've recently learnt Flutter, which is going to become the primary User interface SDK/framework of Fuchsia. I recommend you guys to learn Dart and Flutter if you are a UI developer. Be leaders of them. In a nutshell, Fu[lutter/chsia] is the future for mobile/embedded developers over the next 30 years in this AI/IoT era.