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YouTube’s top creators are burning out

338 points by ilamont 8y ago

romanovcode 8y ago
Talk about first world problems.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  Burnout is burnout. Do you sneer at people burning out on their office jobs too? Because this is the same thing: they voluntarily chose this job, but that doesn't mean they are exempt from sympathy when the job requirements cause them to have a breakdown.
- falcolas 8y ago
  FTA: “Like, this is the ultimate. And if you achieve this kind of success on this platform, which so many people try to do, like, how dare you complain about it? It is difficult to talk about because unless you’ve been in this position, I think it’s challenging to empathize with it.” Of course, I think this also very neatly summarizes our views on mental health and mental issues.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chrshawkes 8y ago
YouTube is a constant grind. As a YouTuber with 15 million views and 100k subs, I can attest to this being a real thing.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  Damn thats illucidating. Do you enjoy making the content at least?
- AndyNemmity 8y ago
  I know several youtubers, and twitch streamers and the thing that is striking about them is that the time's they sound the most... mentally disturbed is when they discuss the process, the algorithms, the schedule, etc. The passion, and angst they have for it all is obsessive, and seems very unhealthy. Looking for reasons everywhere for which signals are causing them to go down in views, or not go up. Or not go up as fast as they had planned out in some sort of scaling of the past performance they've had. I feel quite badly for them, and it's the reason I don't bother streaming even though the few times I have, with their support I get a lot of viewers. It's a completely viable thing for me to do, but the "thing" in question is to be as unhappy as they are, and as obsessed with the detail of if people like me or not. You couldn't pay me for that hell.
- gowld 8y ago
  Why? Why not post less often? Is YouTube more of a grind than any job?
  - otalp 8y ago
    15 million views will give you around 20,000 dollars. Just on the verge of being livable but not yet. If you stop now it's very hard to regain the momentum.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      You're assuming CPM ads. I assume sponsorship tie-ins, affiliates, promos, etc. is where the real money is at, which you can negotiate directly for at that scale.
      - wfsn 8y ago
        Depending on the content, that's not always available. And while it's a more stable source of income with only 15 million views it's unlikely to be a major income stream
    - CryoLogic 8y ago
      Used to depend on the content you created. My coding channel with 30k subs made about 10-15k since 2014. That's on less than 5m views. The ecosystem used to favor high demand niches by offering much higher CPM. It is all homogenized now and YouTube is saving the highest CPM ads for the most popular / connected creators. $1-3CPM I've heard is average. Coding videos now get around $4-$6 down from $15-$20 when I started. Not producing frequently also reduces your CPM. Same with short length videos. Many factors go into the CPM rate now that are not great for creators.
- matwood 8y ago
  You’re basically running a startup that may never get out of the startup phase. The grind is similar.
- CM30 8y ago
  YouTube is a constant grind because the algorithms punish anyone who isn't uploading content on a regular basis. I suspect that probably has a lot to do with these meltdowns and what not, since people are forced to keep uploading content whenever possible or lose a decent chunk of their audience/their attention. There's often no time for a break if you want to succeed on the platform. Then again, that's also a problem with a lot of Google services in general. Google search rewards those who post the most regularly too. Could be interesting to see if any bloggers or writers have similar issues with that.
cf498 8y ago
Working around the clock and having to be perfect all the time and this isnt a surprise.
ibdf 8y ago
Sex sells, but you can't put that on youtube, so the next best thing is drama. Everybody loves some drama.
- felipemnoa 8y ago
  >>Sex sells, but you can't put that on youtube, so the next best thing is drama Not really. Just like everything else it is only the top percent of any industry that rakes all the money.
techntoke 8y ago
They even go as far as threatening suicide to make money: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBgVlvPXZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBgVlvPXZE
d1zzy 8y ago
Not just Youtube but this is all very applicable to Twitch livestreamers too. I noticed it on myself, it's a strange thing. I started doing amateur game streams on Twitch (nothing serious, got a few regular viewers) but even tho I try to make an effort to just relax/chill and take it easy, I can't help but feel a bit stressed trying to be at my most entertaining version throughout the whole stream. Combined with having a regular schedule (even if it's just 2 hours of stream twice a week) it quickly builds up a certain stress that can only be described as stress similar to having a job. I end up hating the thought of "oh no, tomorrow I have a stream again" when I should be excited for it, I mean it's a hobby, it's supposed to make me feel good. But strange enough I spend 10 times more time at work and I rarely get this stressed. It's hard to explain. I don't know exactly why this type of activity can become stressful so quickly. Maybe because it's much more related to how I feel in general. If I have a few bad days it's not going to affect much how I code at work (maybe reduce overall productivity/speed but code quality should be in the same ballpark). But if I feel bad I simply cannot be as entertaining as I can when I feel good and that stresses me out and I make an effort to still be entertaining, on schedule. Maybe that's what it is :)
- ambicapter 8y ago
  > I don't know exactly why this type of activity can become stressful so quickly. The weight of expectation, probably.
- walterbell 8y ago
  Try a web search for “emotional labor”.
- matwood 8y ago
  Sounds similar to what I used to feel playing MMOs, and to a lesser extent online games at all. They caused me a lot of stress when they were supposed to be enjoyable. My work is stressful enough. Now I only play single player games, and I’m much happier for it.
  - Murdodc089 8y ago
    This is the reason I had to stop playing EVE Online. I love the premise and universe of the game, but my goodness does it start to feel like a "job" quickly.
sp332 8y ago
I was thinking of this when I saw an article earlier today about teens moving to youtube over Facebook. You can learn a lot of things on youtube but one thing you can't learn is how not to make a youtube video about it. For example, you can learn how to build a PC on youtube, but you can't learn how to build a PC without posting a build video on youtube, on youtube.
- goldenkey 8y ago
  I was playing with my cat today and he grabs the worm toy in his mouth and carries it to a spot when he captures it. It's really adorable. But the first thing in my mind was: this is so cute, I have to share it - but then he moved and the moment was over. Pulling out my phone for some snapshot/video is such an emotional drain on the moment. It's a stupid 21st century idea that somehow sharing your life with strangers through video somehow makes it more worthwhile. The views don't matter, except for $$$. It's like being at a concert and watching it through the iPhone. I can see why having to depend on "authentic video" as one's main source of $$$ has its dissociative/depressing nature. Isn't there a famous quote about how getting paid to do one's hobby often turns it into torment?
  - smacktoward 8y ago
    > I can see why having to depend on "authentic video" as one's main source of $$$ has its dissociative/depressing nature Authenticity is the key to YouTube success. Once you can fake that, you’ve got it made!
    - goldenkey 8y ago
      Right but a lot of channels like Rachel & Jun don't fake it at all. Maybe that's why they don't seem to have much burnout. Because they aren't putting on an act, or doing anything fueled by insecurity. They just love cats and nature and cooking and whatnot and most of the videos is not extremely edited or stabilized, etc.. they just film while they do some of their cool activities. I think a lot of these YouTubers feel locked into the persona they created, and just like any lie, it's tough to remember all the details, to be contiguous.. And I'm sure it feels like something they want to get off their chest and start over as themselves.. But they are worried that their audience isn't going to be interested. I think it all depends on the audience.. Some channels have dedicated viewers. Others depend on couchsurfers and SEO/spam/keyword linkage. I think most channels that put out consistent content with consistent subscribers would do fine if they changed it up. It's probably just the level of risk that makes them worry to tears.
sushisource 8y ago
Maybe it's just my linux box but what the hell is up with the font? EvErYthInG in THiS ArTiCle lOOKs liKE tHiS SEntENCe
- jdoliner 8y ago
  I'm on Linux and it looks fine for me.
- rhizome 8y ago
  it looks like the 'r' and 's' characters are like 10% larger for some reason.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  It's using a webfont. Maybe your font renderer isn't handling it correctly. Try removing the "fonts-loaded" css class from the html element to see if that clears it up?
- nieksand 8y ago
  I'm getting that too with Linux+Firefox. Quite the ransom letter vibe. Though strangely, if I zoom to a smaller or larger size, it looks fine.
- taborj 8y ago
  Yep. Chrome on Linux here, same issue.
- Geee 8y ago
  I tried Linux in 2008 and abandoned it because of font issues. Seems like they haven't fixed it yet.
  - Sylos 8y ago
    You're responding to someone who is surprised by there being font issues. If it was a common sight, they wouldn't complain about it like this. And it really is not a common sight. I have not had any problems with fonts in the three years that I'm using Linux.
leggomylibro 8y ago
>This is all I ever wanted. And why the fuck am I so unfucking unhappy? It - It doesn’t make any sense. You know what I mean? Because, like, this is literally my fucking dream. And I’m fucking so unfucking happy. It doesn’t make any fucking sense. It’s so stupid. It is so stupid. I think that most people who judge themselves by their accomplishments will run into this at some point. You'll get there, only to find out that there is no 'there' there. Philanthropy seems like it might help. It can feel fundamentally impossible to be happy or content, when you mix a demanding always-on schedule with the very human desire to always be looking for more. But we also live in a world where many people never even have the opportunity to pursue happiness, and what about their hopes and dreams? It is vicariously rewarding to see someone else learn how to do something and get excited by their newfound talent. And every hour of your time that you donate is an hour that you don't have to spend under the pressures of your audience or your thoughts.
- GreeniFi 8y ago
  I’m a moderately successful entrepreneur in a field with strong philanthropic kudos. We’ve won some big prizes recognizing our contribution. I get absolutely zero pleasure from this work and recognition and a lot of stress. The biggest pleasures came from the birth of my children and spending time with my wife, parents and friends. My work pays for my family and friend time; end of. And the less time I spend at work the happier I am. This is an incentive towards efficiency. Maybe the one thing I like about work is when I can interact with other people from all walks of life. Probably because it feels a bit like friend-time.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - lallysingh 8y ago
    Yes, this. People are most important. It's amazing how hard a lesson that is.
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    I couldn’t say I share your success, but I too feel like I make myself miserable trying to help the world. I design open source robots I hope will be useful for people all over the world and I operate a discussion site to try to get developers and fabricators together. It does feel like I’m using my skills to have the most impact, but it’s fucking exhausting. I’m on the edge of burn out at all times.
MistahKoala 8y ago
There's a whole 'sub'-culture around very young (as in, pre-teenage) toy and unboxing vloggers who have got themselves (and/or have been enabled by parents) on to this YouTube production treadmill (not exclusively YT, but Insta, too). The self- and peer-generated pressure to increase views, shares, total viewing time, and in turn, churn out fresh and engaging content and the requisite social engagement is relentless, even if it's not on the same scale of these YT celebs. It's perhaps greater in some ways, due to the shoestring nature of most of them, lacking the specialist skills and resources to work productively, and having to wear multiple hats that professional content producers co-ordinate through a team. It's a massive time-suck on parents and children; I can't help but think there are going to be some latent consequences to this wide-scale phenomena amongst schoolchildren.
- ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
  I had a concept designed to target the un-boxing video trend, but it failed really badly. It's called a "Re-Boxing" video. First kids are happily playing with a mess of toys. Then a parent comes in and tells them it's time to put that shit away. The sad kids then have to put their toys away in boxes, and then put them completely away neatly in closets and such. The camera then just focuses on the nice clean floor. Now that I think about it, maybe I should have targeted these videos at parents instead of children. Well; Live and learn I guess...
  - wesleytodd 8y ago
    Laughed out loud at this. Thanks :)
  - gowld 8y ago
    You could have saved a lot of work by just playing unboxing vids in reverse. Like the "Reaction" genre, it's the "Reverse" genre.
frugalmail 8y ago
I didn't even know about this person, and this got her a view from me. I just fell into the trap of watching a useless "vlogger". Not that I don't acknowledge mental health as an actual malady, Some people truely need help. Just that I think this particular case is bogus. Especially when your so called break involves creating so much video.
zeth___ 8y ago
The sort of person who goes for a job in the public eye is not the sort of person who is mentally stable. The constant need for validation from other will in due course found to be yet another mental illness. That entertainment industries are filled with people like this suffering while being ridiculously successful is a universal across virtually all media.
- xenihn 8y ago
  >The constant need for validation from other will in due course found to be yet another mental illness. Do personality disorders count as mental illness, or are they distinct?
  - zeth___ 8y ago
    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Psychology is fad based, mostly bullshit and still not able to deal with the fact that correlation does not imply causation. So to answer your question: who cares, these people need help.
    - xenihn 8y ago
      What if they don't want help?
      - collyw 8y ago
        Most alcoholics don't want help. Doesn't mean they don't need it.
    - gowld 8y ago
      In psychological science "personality disorders" are a class of so-called "disorders" that other people believe are bad, but that the person with the "disorder" does not believe is bad. It is controversial to claim that someone with a "personality disorder" needs help. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egosyntonic_and_egodystonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egosyntonic_and_egodystonic
ucaetano 8y ago
Just like any other celebrities?
chiefalchemist 8y ago
The Sisyphusian struggle is real. Stop producing and revenue dwindles. Life becomes less about life and more about the next "pay cheque." But much like repeated drug use the buzz wears off and the futility of your existence stares back at you in the mirror. But with less new creators, what is YT going to do? It's almost starting to feel like social media is becoming a hula hoop. Fun while it lasted. Everyone was doing it. But as the novelty wears off so does the mass and its gravity.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  > But with less new creators, what is YT going to do? Somebody else will take the viewers. Older celebrities getting out never killed any communication means. What kill those is lack of new people to take their place. YT seems to not be suffering from the later.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Perhaps. But will they be as good? I doubt it. The smart / best ones, knowing the futility, will take their time and energy elsewhere. It's a brain drain of sorts. If the risk doesn't match the rewards the best will look to apply their energy elsewhere.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      If the platform does not lose the younger public, yes, they will be just as good. People burning out on media is as old as language.
- felipemnoa 8y ago
  >>Life becomes less about life and more about the next "pay cheque." That is how it has been since prehistory for most humans.
deltron3030 8y ago
If you have an audience you depend on, you can't really change without risking of losing that audience. On one hand humans get used to anything (e.g. lifestyle), and otoh they also feel the need to change and make personal progress. Of course you'll be unhappy if you're used to your status quo and think you can't change for the better anymore.
cf498 8y ago
I think a largely ignored aspect is the unwanted celebrity effect setting in with the pressure to stay relevant. Because once you are doing it and have crazed "fans" showing up your door and calling your friends and family you better make a living off it. Because its unlikely they will stop once you want to be done. And your boss is unlikely to be understanding once they show up at her or his business. Ironically, this is the lesson a lot of persons learned when they were kids on 4chan and co. Never put your information out there. Never ever period. It will ruin your life longterm. The internet is not a nice place. It is sadly a lesson, many people who grew up with facebook and youtube never learned. A lot of them were likely full of optimism and had a very sudden awakening where the path back out was no longer viable. There are rather simple examples like this moment https://youtu.be/aGmt5neXURs?t=491 https://youtu.be/aGmt5neXURs?t=491 And to be blunt, even she was naive when it came to showing the skyline. Have the right/wrong viewer and you are screwed. There is a rather sad example of the German Youtuber "drachenlord". He is a fringe youtuber, out of work and is bullied by people in the hundreds. Yet it is his livelihood now and thus there are scenes like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-27CsOBn5HE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-27CsOBn5HE where he is selling posters. I still think the south park episode about brittney spears is sadly relevant.
- felipemnoa 8y ago
  About the second video, could you please provide some context?
  - cf498 8y ago
    His address is widely circulated and he has people showing up at his house in the middle of nowhere regularly including trowing in his window and general vandalism . Thus he decided to make the best of it and sell some posters behind his fence. By now the whole villages hates him, the police is fed up because he invited people and he files complaints against some of them for vandalism. He wasnt that well adjusted to begin with and is completely out of his depth by now. He is a rather overblown phenomenon because he is incapable to deal with the attention but the basic problem is rather common. Sadly youtubers are at the disadvantage towards normal celebrities as their stalkers get to group up easily. I think very few are prepared for that kind of attention
rubatuga 8y ago
Has anyone watched the Netflix series bojack horseman? It seems to deal with this topic of burnout and mental health in a very realistic and touching way. In case you haven’t seen it, it’s about an actor who makes it big for one tv show but becomes aimless and depressed once the show was over.
- kipari 8y ago
  Slightly OT: BoJack Horseman hits the nail right on the head in so many aspects regarding human nature, social interactions, mental health etc. The characters are so deeply human in many capacities. The series manages to talk about some heavy topics in a comedic setting while not making it seem silly. Highly recommendable!
- yay_cloud2 8y ago
  Bojack has been like a remote group therapy session for me in this regard. Especially leading up to the season 2 finale with that running scene. Bojack isn't hilarious. It funny sometimes, but it mostly feels important. Like work. Rewarding to watch for having done the work.
- foobaw 8y ago
  Just wanted to say: this show is amazing and I recommend everyone to watch it.
  - AceyMan 8y ago
    Just pointing out for the historical record: this is an animated show, not live action. I will be checking it out, tho, for certain.
wlkjd 8y ago
I'm a youtuber with 30M views and 300k+ subs and I can totally see how this is happening. Luckily, I'm a little older and have worked in entertainment with the talent side previously, so I've already had my burn out phase and have also seen and understand what fame and/or public attention does to someone, especially if they're mentally unwell. Not tooting my own horn, but it takes incredible discipline and foresight to not get sucked into this vortex of needing to please your audience and sponsors and to do everything all at once. We live in a time when things that are extremely hard or time-consuming are supposed to happen quickly and easily (the magic of editing!) No more is this apparent than on youtube. The main audience on YT are in their mid-20's and younger, who basically grew up in a world where literally everything is at their fingertips, at the drop of a hat. This definitely reflects in their media consumption patterns/platforms of choice. The problem is that for someone in a business where you (or a small team) basically do everything and are pressured by fans and revenue generators/sponsors to keep putting out content at a crazy pace, it becomes all-consuming and unsustainable. I told our team from day one that collectively, the audience doesn't care about you - they're vampires. They're voracious and fickle and only care about you so long as you keep giving them that sweet, delicious content. Yet, if you start off on the right foot, you can keep their appetites satiated without screwing yourself over. My partner and small team and I decided early on that we'd focus on better content less often, and keep engagement on the platform with fans to a manageable amount. We knew this would impact revenue and growth, but for our literal sanity, it was necessary and we're so thankful to have started this way. We made very little money the first year of doing the business but each year has gotten bigger and better and sponsors/brands have come through citing the lack of us "whoring" ourselves out for a quick buck or views as the reason they're wanting to pay us 6 figures to work together. So while it might seem like we're giving up fame and riches, you're only partially right - definitely giving up fame, but the revenue growth has been incredible because we've stayed the course and kept our heads about us. As a fan of other channels on the platform, especially Elle Mills and Casey Neistat, you see that mental illness is a big issue and putting someone already fragile in a position to deal with immense pressure to produce more and more that it becomes a pressure cooker and too much to handle. Elle is the perfect example of this. As a fan of Casey's I'm often struck by his lack of empathy or understanding that filming constantly, and then editing for 4-8 hours everyday, all while getting 3-4 hours of sleep with little downtime is not sustainable for 99.999% of people. I'm still unsure if he's one of the few people that need that little sleep or he maybe is a little bi-polar. As evidence of the effects of his punishing schedule, he recently started working with a filmmaker named Dan Mace. He was constantly sleeping on camera, missing small things in edits, etc that you can't help but feel for him. Casey even goaded him on a little bit and told him this is how you have to work to be successful on Youtube - he's not wrong, but he's also not understanding that success means different things to different people. He clearly loves/needs the attention, so I get why he thinks this way, but he's missing the bigger picture outside his little world. Keeping up with Casey's schedule looks punishing on it's easiest day and is the surest way to get burnt out, all in the service of something, quite frankly, so fickle. TLDR; Audiences are like vampires and there's immense pressure on creators to constantly create/earn revenue/build audience which is not good for anyone mentally healthy and disastrous for someone not mentally fit.
himom 8y ago
Your Daily Dose of Internet guy is teetering on burnout from solo grind.
chasd00 8y ago
You never get paid to do what you love what you love just ends up turning into a job.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nstart 8y ago
In January I tweeted [1] a small thread about how the newer daily uploaders, especially vloggers do have a problem that they are creating for themselves. Spectacle over story. I've studied many of the top vloggers from YouTube rewind and without exception they play the similar part of exaggerated acts to sell the mundane. Contrast this to Casey Neistat or purge gamers who started their narratives to bring about what's unique about them. There's hardly a facade on any of it. I qualified what I meant by acting in my tweets. In the case of purge, it's Kevin being Kevin. He'll read patch notes for 7 hours and doesn't give a toot about what the watch count could be for that. He's active on twitch but without any mad acts and crazy tricks for the fans. His unique sauce is just being super analytical. So he does just that with no crazy voice or "YouTube face". Either one of Casey or purge could be on the verge of needing a break. But they've been doing this a lot longer than any of the new stars and still seem very comfortable being themselves. This is not to shit on the current Gen of daily content creators. I'm just worried a lot of them are not going to deeply understand why they are actually getting burnt out. They are doing excessive amounts of work where the primary requirement is to shed your self. There is very little difference between what they do and ye Joe average 28 year old working daily at a software engineering job that pays well but forces the worker to wake up with existential dread each morning. Realising this might mean that some of these content creators might have a reckoning where they realise that long term they have nothing innately unique to offer the world of YouTube. I'm worried none of them will come to that conclusion simply because their brains are going to be fighting back saying "but this is what I always wanted". We are all capable of getting what we think we want to do wrong. No shame in that. Just be willing to save yourself. 1: https://twitter.com/kiriappeee/status/953547948754862080?s=19 https://twitter.com/kiriappeee/status/953547948754862080?s=1...
- Swizec 8y ago
  Great comment! Loved it. One thing to note is that Casey Neistat did burn out, stopped daily vlogging for almost a year, and said that even before he stopped, he felt his vlogs were not up to par because he didn't have the energy/time to make them better. Now he's back to daily vlogging, but he's back with a whole production team helping him out. Similarly GaryVee doesn't seem to burn out on daily vlogging, but that's because he outsources all of it. He goes about his day saying stuff that's useful and someone else records it then puts it together into an episode.
_trampeltier 8y ago
Already years ago deleted Photonicinduction his whole Youtube chanel because he said it was to much stress. People allways wanna see something bigger. He also had a problem when other people started to copy his content and others went to huge HV Labs and said "I'm better and can do it bigger than Photonicinduction". So he deleted all his content. But he came back and still do some videos. https://m.youtube.com/user/Photonvids/featured https://m.youtube.com/user/Photonvids/featured
wayanon 8y ago
Welcome to self-employment: Twice the work for half the pay.
rdiddly 8y ago
This is just a modern newfangled manifestation of a problem artists have always had: When your rent payment depends on your art (I am deliberately sidestepping the question of "what is art?") you are in a shitty situation indeed. What used to be fun turns into a chore. It's better to have a day job, even though it means you can't spend the whole day doing your thing. (I wouldn't necessarily want to anyway, and I don't think I'm alone in that.) Think of your art or fun hobby as like a horse. Making it pay for your rent and food is like throwing a heavy saddle on its back and sitting on it. If you let a day job carry you (or a patron or parent etc.), your thing is suddenly freed from your heavy ass and you can remove the saddle altogether. It will be a lot happier, treat you better, and incidentally run a lot faster too!
- anyfoo 8y ago
  Yes. Even as a "non-artist", it's well worth avoiding this trap. I'm very careful to not let my software engineering day job get too close to my (quite extensive) electronics hobby. My job can be stressful at times, which I don't consider to be strictly negative, but I have noticed just how much this has impacted my enjoyment of, for example, reading technical articles that are too close to my work subject matters. On the other side, I still have great fun on reading challenging articles, application notes or whole books on different subjects in electronics and signal processing, and my way to ensure that it keeps being fun, is to keep it away from being relevant for my income.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  This is just a modern newfangled manifestation of a problem artists have always had. Well, the "independent artist" directly selling to the market place is a fairly new thing in the scheme of things, originally artists had patrons, then galleries and art dealers set fashion. Youtube lets a wide variety of people sell directly to the world and this creates an intensification of the precariousness earlier artists felt. The artist in the modern world is imagined as someone turning a hobby and a dream into a profession but profession artist derives originally from artisans of the middle ages or other time, individuals skilled by no means concerned with "art for art's sake" (coined by Théophile Gautier in the 19th century). Of course, it should be noted that during the evolution of the modern artist, artists' skills increased but simultaneously the artist sold more their sensibility and "themselves" rather than simply selling their skillfully produced products.
josu 8y ago
Nothing on the top but a bucket and a mop And an illustrated book about birds
jimjimjim 8y ago
youtube/streaming is a low-barrier to entry version of being an actor. so all the crap that actors/actresses put up with is likely to apply to youtube/twitch people. dreams, pressure, long-hours, fame, ratings anxiety, envy, fans, meltdowns. etc.
retox 8y ago
YouTube is the plantation, farming up views, Google the slave master and the algo is their whip.
- VikingCoder 8y ago
  ...except anyone can leave and get a new job, at any moment. The "slave" analogy is completely flawed.
  - throwaaa_zzz 8y ago
    It is not an analogy, it is a stylistic exaggeration. European literature is full of this and educated people are expected to detect it as such.
    - VikingCoder 8y ago
      You can just call it "hyperbole." It's a cheap trick which is why it belongs in dramatic literature, not in a discussion based on reason and facts. Another cheap trick is making an alternate throw-away account rather than having a history of comments that people can refer to, to see if you have contributed positively in the past, or if you're just an obnoxious troll.
VikingCoder 8y ago
Entertainment is great. But it's also meaningless. Ephemeral. Fading. If you're improving someone else's life, that's a bit more tangible. I know people who would have died if they hadn't discovered that helping other people makes them feel like life is worth living. So, maybe if you vlog stuff that helps people, that might make it more satisfying. Just a thought.
bitL 8y ago
I see the push to publish frequently has turned YouTube into a perfect hamster wheel :D Another funny consequence of algorithmic optimization. Seems like people that came up with it weren't as smart as they thought. Hint: if 99.99% of your users are consumers and 0.01% are creative producers, from whose only 1/1000 can consistently perform, you wouldn't want to drive them to the ground. Also, pushing increased frequency inevitable lowers quality and increases noise of your platform and prevents unique but occasional hits from being properly rewarded. Is that really good for advertisement?
- ozim 8y ago
  Ideally people would create content and ones that create more often would have more relevant, better videos because they are committed and professional. It all looks like it went "Cobra effect" where algo incentives are right but people are gaming system so they get profits. The same with SEO, more links to your site better ranking -> people invent link farms. While idea was great in practice all turns out you got bunch of people breeding cobras, links, videos.
Abishek_Muthian 8y ago
When the idea is to showcase what others want you to be and not what you actually want to be; I doubt long-term happiness is on the line.
exabrial 8y ago
Cody Don, an incredible scientist, has to keep taking down his videos on mining because they involved [legal] explosives. AvE had had his share of complaints. And don't forget the myriad of firearm channels that are fighting for their livelihood. While YouTube is a private platform and they are welcome to display whatever content they feel, it is against American ideals to censor creativity and speech if fellow citizens.
- rdl 8y ago
  Has AvE ever had videos actually taken down, or just demonetized? He seems like he'd respond with something colorful and abrasive suggesting one consider carnal relations with headworn attire.
dsubburam 8y ago
I like to evaluate a job across four metrics: 1. livelihood: does it provide enough $$. 2. meaning: the end product/service, do I find it meaningful. 3. people: do I interact with colleagues, customers, etc. whom I find interesting and respect. 4. process: do I find the work in and of itself enjoyable, tending to put me in a flow state. The YouTubers might be lacking in 3., and depending on their personal tastes/needs, possibly the others too.
FrozenVoid 8y ago
Its really simple, they turned their hobby into work with impossible schedules and really bad overtime. They're unhappy because the work they invented for themselves isn't based on their interests but for popularity and viewers interests. They are afraid of losing audience and missing out of more exposure, because their work defines them as a person - if they start losing popularity/attention their persona was based on, it knocks them down a peg, like a celebrity in the end of their career. So they double down on their work.
Proven 8y ago
Those who watch that nonsense have burned out a long time ago... talk about mental issues...
gamerslife22 8y ago
Sidequest: work/life balance of an addict: 'No one tells you how many hours you should be addicted!' Jet again another:'Striving for _more_user_ engagement'? I am just trying to get a little bit canibalism-humor out of: "googleᵀᴹ is eating children"... (-;
vinayms 8y ago
I don't follow individuals on YouTube but I come across their videos when sucked into the "up next vortex". If they impress me, I check their channel to see what else they have posted. This is my take based on this experience. Most youtubers are one or more of these three: 1. They comment on things, either current events or things in general. 2. They are self designated experts in their field and dole out tips and advice. 3. They make original content of some kind, like comedy skits or other art forms. Then there are the so called bottom feeders, the scourge of modern YouTube, the makers of reaction videos. Their channels are updated quite frequently, if not daily at most one per week. Only small proportion of the videos is worth watching. The rest is total waste of time. Subscribers often vent their frustration in the comments about the content, but for most people you'd have to go past several pages to see disgruntled comments. The top ones are usually favorable ones, and I am unsure of their authenticity. The fundamental problem is that these youtubers mistook dumb luck for talent. When, for some inexplicable reason, some of their early videos went viral, they were egged on by their ego to post more, which is fine. But soon when they ran out of content, instead of quitting or taking a break to regroup, they continued to post substandard content. I know I am being overtly judgemental by using words like 'substandard', and one might contest that by showing how popular these people are - some were even guests on popular US talk shows (one shiela was even on Conan) - but that is my point. I am amazed at the success they got despite such content. I wonder what kind of people are impressed by such content. Its one of the great sociological mysteries to me because, unlike a low quality TV show that persists due to studio bosses persisting with it for whatever reason, on social media things survive due to direct audience interest. Quality intellectual output is quite hard. Even the most gifted comedian won't be funny all the time, the most gifted musician won't make good music all the time, the most gifted philosopher won't say deep thought provoking things all the time. In the current state of society where instant gratification is craved, people don't understand this, and it shows in how mediocrity succeeds time and again in all walks of life. I think this burn out thing is their coming to terms with their lack of quality content and sort of giving up being an imposter. That said, some of the youtubers who post original content are indeed good. If they take time off and develop their talent, they could make a proper career out of it.
Applejinx 8y ago
I'm more of a Patreoner, making around $1000 a month through Patreon and my audio DSP plugins and around $20 a month from YouTube. I have a good sense of why these people are burning out. The only reason I'm able to do that well (still far below minumum wage, if minimum wage legitimately gave you 40 hours a week which I think generally it won't) is that I spent close to ten years entrepreneurially running the same business as a commercial proposition, all by myself. I made between twice and four times as much selling plugins directly to people, but it was COMPLETELY unpredictable and the Patreon is not nearly as unpredictable: provided they don't implode, it's a slow steady growth curve as more people discover what I do. And going commercial didn't protect me from things imploding: I went to Patreon because I'd been using Kagi as a payment processor, and they imploded. They still owe me two months' pay that I will never see. Patreon was one of those bold intuitive jumps where I went 'I'm happier giving my work away, let's gamble my whole life on this working, and if it fails, whatever, I didn't want to live anyway'. Turned out I was able to survive on it, and the relative predictability of the admittedly-lower income is good for my mental health. That was where keeping up a better-than-monthly grind of product releases got me, when I absolutely depended on having 'hit' products to sell to make up for the ones that fizzled, and never knew what was actually going to hit. It's this which is killing the YouTubers. It's not just that they don't know which videos will go viral, it's that they also don't know what the rules are or will be, and worse, they are subject to being algorithmically handicapped in a way they are blind to. The whole system is set up to goad them on to unrealistic behavior, and appears to silently punish them for failure to comply. All they can do is cling to cargo-cult-like obsessive lowest-common-denominator stuff and double down on what they think will help them, which is never actually confirmed by YouTube. This is a recipe for killing people, in action. Being an entrepreneur and small business owner is already sort of fraught with uncertainty: you can fall back on 'if I work hard and do what I do, I can get through to a certain number of people and build a following'. Being a 'Youtuber' is more than twice as bad, because it's that except that your platform can and does literally stop you getting through to your own people if they want to connect your people to some newer youtuber that they would rather stick in the recommendations. The very act of getting through at all is subject to restriction by the YouTube that you're working for, so it's no wonder people are going insane trying to please YouTube.
- 8y ago
throwaaa_zzz 8y ago
One aspect is that perhaps the concept of a middleman or agent for creative people is not as bad as people claim it to be. It shields you from the fans and a lot more.
HONEST_ANNIE 8y ago
Many youtubers emote (portray emotion in a theatrical manner) the events and issues they narrate. Their work description is simply to be emotionally enthusiastic of whatever happens. If the content of the channel is not deeply meaningful for it's creator anymore, the job loses meaning. The attention and popularity are rewarding but the effect wears out. If the enthusiasm is not genuine, it starts to feel bad.
rdl 8y ago
The crazy and arbitrary demonetization seems like the biggest problem. Anything to the right of YouTube senior management, anything which touches on things they don't like (firearms, including historical information about bolt-action Swiss rifles of the early 1900s), anything even slightly offensive to anyone, etc. runs that risk (although not guaranteed). If you offend anyone, others can retroactively go back and flag innocuous videos, either for content or as a "copystrike". Some of this is the biases of the YouTube management and employees, some is the beliefs of advertisers, but it seems incompetently implemented. Many advertisers would be perfectly happy running in front of "offensive" content in their same domain (e.g. any ammo company would happily run ads before a video about guns; maybe Disney wouldn't), etc. So they are basically making up for limitations in their product with arbitrary and destructive policies against the content creators. I hope a non-YouTube, non-Google platform disrupts them ASAP, although this only seems to be happening inside verticals (like Full30 for firearms).
- alphaalpha101 8y ago
  I honestly don't know why advertisers care where their advertisements appear. If they all just disclaimed any control over the associations with their advertising nobody would care. Nobody associates the ads with the video content, nobody.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Dominant distribution channels have always come with their own arbitrary rules and randomness. It used to be the networks for video. It's not that there's any shortage of video and other content distribution platforms. People just want the discovery and monetization associated with YouTube while not wanting to deal with everything that comes from getting in bed with the elephant.
voltagex_ 8y ago
I recently watched Avicii: True Stories [1]. The film looks to have been completed before his death and is all the more sad for it. It's worth watching to see what happens when people are suddenly put into a high pressure, high performance environment 1: http://unogs.com/video/?v=80097519 http://unogs.com/video/?v=80097519 looks to be available on Netflix in the EU, but for some reason nowhere else.
anoncoward111 8y ago
If rent and other serious expenses weren't so costly, then we wouldn't need to work as much. Then we could all breathe a little bit and work a reasonable schedule with a healthy appreciation for creativity.
linsomniac 8y ago
Patreon seems to be in a good position to help the creators with the demonitization situation. One of my favorite Youtube creators has a good day job and seems to deliberately try to trigger the demonitization in his videos. But he has a Patreon that he uses to both fund the videos and to limit the first day or so of release of new videos to fans. I get the impression this helps kick-start the video so that it doesn't get flagged, based on what he has said about it. Youtube is in an interesting position right now. They have a lot of great content, but there are obvious huge problems standing in the way of run-away success. Finding new content is another of the big problems, I use Youtube a lot for "edutainment", but the recommendations engine doesn't really give me much diversity. And the diversity I explore seems to just confuse their recommendations.

338 points by ilamont 8y ago

romanovcode 8y ago

Talk about first world problems.

Analemma_ 8y ago
Burnout is burnout. Do you sneer at people burning out on their office jobs too? Because this is the same thing: they voluntarily chose this job, but that doesn't mean they are exempt from sympathy when the job requirements cause them to have a breakdown.
falcolas 8y ago
FTA: “Like, this is the ultimate. And if you achieve this kind of success on this platform, which so many people try to do, like, how dare you complain about it? It is difficult to talk about because unless you’ve been in this position, I think it’s challenging to empathize with it.” Of course, I think this also very neatly summarizes our views on mental health and mental issues.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

chrshawkes 8y ago

YouTube is a constant grind. As a YouTuber with 15 million views and 100k subs, I can attest to this being a real thing.

anoncoward111 8y ago
Damn thats illucidating. Do you enjoy making the content at least?
AndyNemmity 8y ago
I know several youtubers, and twitch streamers and the thing that is striking about them is that the time's they sound the most... mentally disturbed is when they discuss the process, the algorithms, the schedule, etc. The passion, and angst they have for it all is obsessive, and seems very unhealthy. Looking for reasons everywhere for which signals are causing them to go down in views, or not go up. Or not go up as fast as they had planned out in some sort of scaling of the past performance they've had. I feel quite badly for them, and it's the reason I don't bother streaming even though the few times I have, with their support I get a lot of viewers. It's a completely viable thing for me to do, but the "thing" in question is to be as unhappy as they are, and as obsessed with the detail of if people like me or not. You couldn't pay me for that hell.
gowld 8y ago
Why? Why not post less often? Is YouTube more of a grind than any job?
- otalp 8y ago
  15 million views will give you around 20,000 dollars. Just on the verge of being livable but not yet. If you stop now it's very hard to regain the momentum.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    You're assuming CPM ads. I assume sponsorship tie-ins, affiliates, promos, etc. is where the real money is at, which you can negotiate directly for at that scale.
    - wfsn 8y ago
      Depending on the content, that's not always available. And while it's a more stable source of income with only 15 million views it's unlikely to be a major income stream
  - CryoLogic 8y ago
    Used to depend on the content you created. My coding channel with 30k subs made about 10-15k since 2014. That's on less than 5m views. The ecosystem used to favor high demand niches by offering much higher CPM. It is all homogenized now and YouTube is saving the highest CPM ads for the most popular / connected creators. $1-3CPM I've heard is average. Coding videos now get around $4-$6 down from $15-$20 when I started. Not producing frequently also reduces your CPM. Same with short length videos. Many factors go into the CPM rate now that are not great for creators.
matwood 8y ago
You’re basically running a startup that may never get out of the startup phase. The grind is similar.
CM30 8y ago
YouTube is a constant grind because the algorithms punish anyone who isn't uploading content on a regular basis. I suspect that probably has a lot to do with these meltdowns and what not, since people are forced to keep uploading content whenever possible or lose a decent chunk of their audience/their attention. There's often no time for a break if you want to succeed on the platform. Then again, that's also a problem with a lot of Google services in general. Google search rewards those who post the most regularly too. Could be interesting to see if any bloggers or writers have similar issues with that.

cf498 8y ago

Working around the clock and having to be perfect all the time and this isnt a surprise.

ibdf 8y ago

Sex sells, but you can't put that on youtube, so the next best thing is drama. Everybody loves some drama.

felipemnoa 8y ago
>>Sex sells, but you can't put that on youtube, so the next best thing is drama Not really. Just like everything else it is only the top percent of any industry that rakes all the money.

techntoke 8y ago

They even go as far as threatening suicide to make money: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBgVlvPXZE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBgVlvPXZE

d1zzy 8y ago

Not just Youtube but this is all very applicable to Twitch livestreamers too. I noticed it on myself, it's a strange thing. I started doing amateur game streams on Twitch (nothing serious, got a few regular viewers) but even tho I try to make an effort to just relax/chill and take it easy, I can't help but feel a bit stressed trying to be at my most entertaining version throughout the whole stream. Combined with having a regular schedule (even if it's just 2 hours of stream twice a week) it quickly builds up a certain stress that can only be described as stress similar to having a job. I end up hating the thought of "oh no, tomorrow I have a stream again" when I should be excited for it, I mean it's a hobby, it's supposed to make me feel good. But strange enough I spend 10 times more time at work and I rarely get this stressed. It's hard to explain. I don't know exactly why this type of activity can become stressful so quickly. Maybe because it's much more related to how I feel in general. If I have a few bad days it's not going to affect much how I code at work (maybe reduce overall productivity/speed but code quality should be in the same ballpark). But if I feel bad I simply cannot be as entertaining as I can when I feel good and that stresses me out and I make an effort to still be entertaining, on schedule. Maybe that's what it is :)

ambicapter 8y ago
> I don't know exactly why this type of activity can become stressful so quickly. The weight of expectation, probably.
walterbell 8y ago
Try a web search for “emotional labor”.
matwood 8y ago
Sounds similar to what I used to feel playing MMOs, and to a lesser extent online games at all. They caused me a lot of stress when they were supposed to be enjoyable. My work is stressful enough. Now I only play single player games, and I’m much happier for it.
- Murdodc089 8y ago
  This is the reason I had to stop playing EVE Online. I love the premise and universe of the game, but my goodness does it start to feel like a "job" quickly.

sp332 8y ago

I was thinking of this when I saw an article earlier today about teens moving to youtube over Facebook. You can learn a lot of things on youtube but one thing you can't learn is how not to make a youtube video about it. For example, you can learn how to build a PC on youtube, but you can't learn how to build a PC without posting a build video on youtube, on youtube.

goldenkey 8y ago
I was playing with my cat today and he grabs the worm toy in his mouth and carries it to a spot when he captures it. It's really adorable. But the first thing in my mind was: this is so cute, I have to share it - but then he moved and the moment was over. Pulling out my phone for some snapshot/video is such an emotional drain on the moment. It's a stupid 21st century idea that somehow sharing your life with strangers through video somehow makes it more worthwhile. The views don't matter, except for $$$. It's like being at a concert and watching it through the iPhone. I can see why having to depend on "authentic video" as one's main source of $$$ has its dissociative/depressing nature. Isn't there a famous quote about how getting paid to do one's hobby often turns it into torment?
- smacktoward 8y ago
  > I can see why having to depend on "authentic video" as one's main source of $$$ has its dissociative/depressing nature Authenticity is the key to YouTube success. Once you can fake that, you’ve got it made!
  - goldenkey 8y ago
    Right but a lot of channels like Rachel & Jun don't fake it at all. Maybe that's why they don't seem to have much burnout. Because they aren't putting on an act, or doing anything fueled by insecurity. They just love cats and nature and cooking and whatnot and most of the videos is not extremely edited or stabilized, etc.. they just film while they do some of their cool activities. I think a lot of these YouTubers feel locked into the persona they created, and just like any lie, it's tough to remember all the details, to be contiguous.. And I'm sure it feels like something they want to get off their chest and start over as themselves.. But they are worried that their audience isn't going to be interested. I think it all depends on the audience.. Some channels have dedicated viewers. Others depend on couchsurfers and SEO/spam/keyword linkage. I think most channels that put out consistent content with consistent subscribers would do fine if they changed it up. It's probably just the level of risk that makes them worry to tears.

sushisource 8y ago

Maybe it's just my linux box but what the hell is up with the font? EvErYthInG in THiS ArTiCle lOOKs liKE tHiS SEntENCe

jdoliner 8y ago
I'm on Linux and it looks fine for me.
rhizome 8y ago
it looks like the 'r' and 's' characters are like 10% larger for some reason.
kalleboo 8y ago
It's using a webfont. Maybe your font renderer isn't handling it correctly. Try removing the "fonts-loaded" css class from the html element to see if that clears it up?
nieksand 8y ago
I'm getting that too with Linux+Firefox. Quite the ransom letter vibe. Though strangely, if I zoom to a smaller or larger size, it looks fine.
taborj 8y ago
Yep. Chrome on Linux here, same issue.
Geee 8y ago
I tried Linux in 2008 and abandoned it because of font issues. Seems like they haven't fixed it yet.
- Sylos 8y ago
  You're responding to someone who is surprised by there being font issues. If it was a common sight, they wouldn't complain about it like this. And it really is not a common sight. I have not had any problems with fonts in the three years that I'm using Linux.

leggomylibro 8y ago

>This is all I ever wanted. And why the fuck am I so unfucking unhappy? It - It doesn’t make any sense. You know what I mean? Because, like, this is literally my fucking dream. And I’m fucking so unfucking happy. It doesn’t make any fucking sense. It’s so stupid. It is so stupid. I think that most people who judge themselves by their accomplishments will run into this at some point. You'll get there, only to find out that there is no 'there' there. Philanthropy seems like it might help. It can feel fundamentally impossible to be happy or content, when you mix a demanding always-on schedule with the very human desire to always be looking for more. But we also live in a world where many people never even have the opportunity to pursue happiness, and what about their hopes and dreams? It is vicariously rewarding to see someone else learn how to do something and get excited by their newfound talent. And every hour of your time that you donate is an hour that you don't have to spend under the pressures of your audience or your thoughts.

GreeniFi 8y ago
I’m a moderately successful entrepreneur in a field with strong philanthropic kudos. We’ve won some big prizes recognizing our contribution. I get absolutely zero pleasure from this work and recognition and a lot of stress. The biggest pleasures came from the birth of my children and spending time with my wife, parents and friends. My work pays for my family and friend time; end of. And the less time I spend at work the happier I am. This is an incentive towards efficiency. Maybe the one thing I like about work is when I can interact with other people from all walks of life. Probably because it feels a bit like friend-time.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lallysingh 8y ago
  Yes, this. People are most important. It's amazing how hard a lesson that is.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I couldn’t say I share your success, but I too feel like I make myself miserable trying to help the world. I design open source robots I hope will be useful for people all over the world and I operate a discussion site to try to get developers and fabricators together. It does feel like I’m using my skills to have the most impact, but it’s fucking exhausting. I’m on the edge of burn out at all times.

MistahKoala 8y ago

There's a whole 'sub'-culture around very young (as in, pre-teenage) toy and unboxing vloggers who have got themselves (and/or have been enabled by parents) on to this YouTube production treadmill (not exclusively YT, but Insta, too). The self- and peer-generated pressure to increase views, shares, total viewing time, and in turn, churn out fresh and engaging content and the requisite social engagement is relentless, even if it's not on the same scale of these YT celebs. It's perhaps greater in some ways, due to the shoestring nature of most of them, lacking the specialist skills and resources to work productively, and having to wear multiple hats that professional content producers co-ordinate through a team. It's a massive time-suck on parents and children; I can't help but think there are going to be some latent consequences to this wide-scale phenomena amongst schoolchildren.

ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
I had a concept designed to target the un-boxing video trend, but it failed really badly. It's called a "Re-Boxing" video. First kids are happily playing with a mess of toys. Then a parent comes in and tells them it's time to put that shit away. The sad kids then have to put their toys away in boxes, and then put them completely away neatly in closets and such. The camera then just focuses on the nice clean floor. Now that I think about it, maybe I should have targeted these videos at parents instead of children. Well; Live and learn I guess...
- wesleytodd 8y ago
  Laughed out loud at this. Thanks :)
- gowld 8y ago
  You could have saved a lot of work by just playing unboxing vids in reverse. Like the "Reaction" genre, it's the "Reverse" genre.

frugalmail 8y ago

I didn't even know about this person, and this got her a view from me. I just fell into the trap of watching a useless "vlogger". Not that I don't acknowledge mental health as an actual malady, Some people truely need help. Just that I think this particular case is bogus. Especially when your so called break involves creating so much video.

zeth___ 8y ago

The sort of person who goes for a job in the public eye is not the sort of person who is mentally stable. The constant need for validation from other will in due course found to be yet another mental illness. That entertainment industries are filled with people like this suffering while being ridiculously successful is a universal across virtually all media.

xenihn 8y ago
>The constant need for validation from other will in due course found to be yet another mental illness. Do personality disorders count as mental illness, or are they distinct?
- zeth___ 8y ago
  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Psychology is fad based, mostly bullshit and still not able to deal with the fact that correlation does not imply causation. So to answer your question: who cares, these people need help.
  - xenihn 8y ago
    What if they don't want help?
    - collyw 8y ago
      Most alcoholics don't want help. Doesn't mean they don't need it.
  - gowld 8y ago
    In psychological science "personality disorders" are a class of so-called "disorders" that other people believe are bad, but that the person with the "disorder" does not believe is bad. It is controversial to claim that someone with a "personality disorder" needs help. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egosyntonic_and_egodystonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egosyntonic_and_egodystonic

ucaetano 8y ago

Just like any other celebrities?

chiefalchemist 8y ago

The Sisyphusian struggle is real. Stop producing and revenue dwindles. Life becomes less about life and more about the next "pay cheque." But much like repeated drug use the buzz wears off and the futility of your existence stares back at you in the mirror. But with less new creators, what is YT going to do? It's almost starting to feel like social media is becoming a hula hoop. Fun while it lasted. Everyone was doing it. But as the novelty wears off so does the mass and its gravity.

marcosdumay 8y ago
> But with less new creators, what is YT going to do? Somebody else will take the viewers. Older celebrities getting out never killed any communication means. What kill those is lack of new people to take their place. YT seems to not be suffering from the later.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Perhaps. But will they be as good? I doubt it. The smart / best ones, knowing the futility, will take their time and energy elsewhere. It's a brain drain of sorts. If the risk doesn't match the rewards the best will look to apply their energy elsewhere.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    If the platform does not lose the younger public, yes, they will be just as good. People burning out on media is as old as language.
felipemnoa 8y ago
>>Life becomes less about life and more about the next "pay cheque." That is how it has been since prehistory for most humans.

deltron3030 8y ago

If you have an audience you depend on, you can't really change without risking of losing that audience. On one hand humans get used to anything (e.g. lifestyle), and otoh they also feel the need to change and make personal progress. Of course you'll be unhappy if you're used to your status quo and think you can't change for the better anymore.

cf498 8y ago

I think a largely ignored aspect is the unwanted celebrity effect setting in with the pressure to stay relevant. Because once you are doing it and have crazed "fans" showing up your door and calling your friends and family you better make a living off it. Because its unlikely they will stop once you want to be done. And your boss is unlikely to be understanding once they show up at her or his business. Ironically, this is the lesson a lot of persons learned when they were kids on 4chan and co. Never put your information out there. Never ever period. It will ruin your life longterm. The internet is not a nice place. It is sadly a lesson, many people who grew up with facebook and youtube never learned. A lot of them were likely full of optimism and had a very sudden awakening where the path back out was no longer viable. There are rather simple examples like this moment https://youtu.be/aGmt5neXURs?t=491 https://youtu.be/aGmt5neXURs?t=491 And to be blunt, even she was naive when it came to showing the skyline. Have the right/wrong viewer and you are screwed. There is a rather sad example of the German Youtuber "drachenlord". He is a fringe youtuber, out of work and is bullied by people in the hundreds. Yet it is his livelihood now and thus there are scenes like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-27CsOBn5HE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-27CsOBn5HE where he is selling posters. I still think the south park episode about brittney spears is sadly relevant.

felipemnoa 8y ago
About the second video, could you please provide some context?
- cf498 8y ago
  His address is widely circulated and he has people showing up at his house in the middle of nowhere regularly including trowing in his window and general vandalism . Thus he decided to make the best of it and sell some posters behind his fence. By now the whole villages hates him, the police is fed up because he invited people and he files complaints against some of them for vandalism. He wasnt that well adjusted to begin with and is completely out of his depth by now. He is a rather overblown phenomenon because he is incapable to deal with the attention but the basic problem is rather common. Sadly youtubers are at the disadvantage towards normal celebrities as their stalkers get to group up easily. I think very few are prepared for that kind of attention

rubatuga 8y ago

Has anyone watched the Netflix series bojack horseman? It seems to deal with this topic of burnout and mental health in a very realistic and touching way. In case you haven’t seen it, it’s about an actor who makes it big for one tv show but becomes aimless and depressed once the show was over.

kipari 8y ago
Slightly OT: BoJack Horseman hits the nail right on the head in so many aspects regarding human nature, social interactions, mental health etc. The characters are so deeply human in many capacities. The series manages to talk about some heavy topics in a comedic setting while not making it seem silly. Highly recommendable!
yay_cloud2 8y ago
Bojack has been like a remote group therapy session for me in this regard. Especially leading up to the season 2 finale with that running scene. Bojack isn't hilarious. It funny sometimes, but it mostly feels important. Like work. Rewarding to watch for having done the work.
foobaw 8y ago
Just wanted to say: this show is amazing and I recommend everyone to watch it.
- AceyMan 8y ago
  Just pointing out for the historical record: this is an animated show, not live action. I will be checking it out, tho, for certain.

wlkjd 8y ago

I'm a youtuber with 30M views and 300k+ subs and I can totally see how this is happening. Luckily, I'm a little older and have worked in entertainment with the talent side previously, so I've already had my burn out phase and have also seen and understand what fame and/or public attention does to someone, especially if they're mentally unwell. Not tooting my own horn, but it takes incredible discipline and foresight to not get sucked into this vortex of needing to please your audience and sponsors and to do everything all at once. We live in a time when things that are extremely hard or time-consuming are supposed to happen quickly and easily (the magic of editing!) No more is this apparent than on youtube. The main audience on YT are in their mid-20's and younger, who basically grew up in a world where literally everything is at their fingertips, at the drop of a hat. This definitely reflects in their media consumption patterns/platforms of choice. The problem is that for someone in a business where you (or a small team) basically do everything and are pressured by fans and revenue generators/sponsors to keep putting out content at a crazy pace, it becomes all-consuming and unsustainable. I told our team from day one that collectively, the audience doesn't care about you - they're vampires. They're voracious and fickle and only care about you so long as you keep giving them that sweet, delicious content. Yet, if you start off on the right foot, you can keep their appetites satiated without screwing yourself over. My partner and small team and I decided early on that we'd focus on better content less often, and keep engagement on the platform with fans to a manageable amount. We knew this would impact revenue and growth, but for our literal sanity, it was necessary and we're so thankful to have started this way. We made very little money the first year of doing the business but each year has gotten bigger and better and sponsors/brands have come through citing the lack of us "whoring" ourselves out for a quick buck or views as the reason they're wanting to pay us 6 figures to work together. So while it might seem like we're giving up fame and riches, you're only partially right - definitely giving up fame, but the revenue growth has been incredible because we've stayed the course and kept our heads about us. As a fan of other channels on the platform, especially Elle Mills and Casey Neistat, you see that mental illness is a big issue and putting someone already fragile in a position to deal with immense pressure to produce more and more that it becomes a pressure cooker and too much to handle. Elle is the perfect example of this. As a fan of Casey's I'm often struck by his lack of empathy or understanding that filming constantly, and then editing for 4-8 hours everyday, all while getting 3-4 hours of sleep with little downtime is not sustainable for 99.999% of people. I'm still unsure if he's one of the few people that need that little sleep or he maybe is a little bi-polar. As evidence of the effects of his punishing schedule, he recently started working with a filmmaker named Dan Mace. He was constantly sleeping on camera, missing small things in edits, etc that you can't help but feel for him. Casey even goaded him on a little bit and told him this is how you have to work to be successful on Youtube - he's not wrong, but he's also not understanding that success means different things to different people. He clearly loves/needs the attention, so I get why he thinks this way, but he's missing the bigger picture outside his little world. Keeping up with Casey's schedule looks punishing on it's easiest day and is the surest way to get burnt out, all in the service of something, quite frankly, so fickle. TLDR; Audiences are like vampires and there's immense pressure on creators to constantly create/earn revenue/build audience which is not good for anyone mentally healthy and disastrous for someone not mentally fit.

himom 8y ago

Your Daily Dose of Internet guy is teetering on burnout from solo grind.

chasd00 8y ago

You never get paid to do what you love what you love just ends up turning into a job.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nstart 8y ago

In January I tweeted [1] a small thread about how the newer daily uploaders, especially vloggers do have a problem that they are creating for themselves. Spectacle over story. I've studied many of the top vloggers from YouTube rewind and without exception they play the similar part of exaggerated acts to sell the mundane. Contrast this to Casey Neistat or purge gamers who started their narratives to bring about what's unique about them. There's hardly a facade on any of it. I qualified what I meant by acting in my tweets. In the case of purge, it's Kevin being Kevin. He'll read patch notes for 7 hours and doesn't give a toot about what the watch count could be for that. He's active on twitch but without any mad acts and crazy tricks for the fans. His unique sauce is just being super analytical. So he does just that with no crazy voice or "YouTube face". Either one of Casey or purge could be on the verge of needing a break. But they've been doing this a lot longer than any of the new stars and still seem very comfortable being themselves. This is not to shit on the current Gen of daily content creators. I'm just worried a lot of them are not going to deeply understand why they are actually getting burnt out. They are doing excessive amounts of work where the primary requirement is to shed your self. There is very little difference between what they do and ye Joe average 28 year old working daily at a software engineering job that pays well but forces the worker to wake up with existential dread each morning. Realising this might mean that some of these content creators might have a reckoning where they realise that long term they have nothing innately unique to offer the world of YouTube. I'm worried none of them will come to that conclusion simply because their brains are going to be fighting back saying "but this is what I always wanted". We are all capable of getting what we think we want to do wrong. No shame in that. Just be willing to save yourself. 1: https://twitter.com/kiriappeee/status/953547948754862080?s=19 https://twitter.com/kiriappeee/status/953547948754862080?s=1...

Swizec 8y ago
Great comment! Loved it. One thing to note is that Casey Neistat did burn out, stopped daily vlogging for almost a year, and said that even before he stopped, he felt his vlogs were not up to par because he didn't have the energy/time to make them better. Now he's back to daily vlogging, but he's back with a whole production team helping him out. Similarly GaryVee doesn't seem to burn out on daily vlogging, but that's because he outsources all of it. He goes about his day saying stuff that's useful and someone else records it then puts it together into an episode.

_trampeltier 8y ago

Already years ago deleted Photonicinduction his whole Youtube chanel because he said it was to much stress. People allways wanna see something bigger. He also had a problem when other people started to copy his content and others went to huge HV Labs and said "I'm better and can do it bigger than Photonicinduction". So he deleted all his content. But he came back and still do some videos. https://m.youtube.com/user/Photonvids/featured https://m.youtube.com/user/Photonvids/featured

wayanon 8y ago

Welcome to self-employment: Twice the work for half the pay.

rdiddly 8y ago

This is just a modern newfangled manifestation of a problem artists have always had: When your rent payment depends on your art (I am deliberately sidestepping the question of "what is art?") you are in a shitty situation indeed. What used to be fun turns into a chore. It's better to have a day job, even though it means you can't spend the whole day doing your thing. (I wouldn't necessarily want to anyway, and I don't think I'm alone in that.) Think of your art or fun hobby as like a horse. Making it pay for your rent and food is like throwing a heavy saddle on its back and sitting on it. If you let a day job carry you (or a patron or parent etc.), your thing is suddenly freed from your heavy ass and you can remove the saddle altogether. It will be a lot happier, treat you better, and incidentally run a lot faster too!

anyfoo 8y ago
Yes. Even as a "non-artist", it's well worth avoiding this trap. I'm very careful to not let my software engineering day job get too close to my (quite extensive) electronics hobby. My job can be stressful at times, which I don't consider to be strictly negative, but I have noticed just how much this has impacted my enjoyment of, for example, reading technical articles that are too close to my work subject matters. On the other side, I still have great fun on reading challenging articles, application notes or whole books on different subjects in electronics and signal processing, and my way to ensure that it keeps being fun, is to keep it away from being relevant for my income.
joe_the_user 8y ago
This is just a modern newfangled manifestation of a problem artists have always had. Well, the "independent artist" directly selling to the market place is a fairly new thing in the scheme of things, originally artists had patrons, then galleries and art dealers set fashion. Youtube lets a wide variety of people sell directly to the world and this creates an intensification of the precariousness earlier artists felt. The artist in the modern world is imagined as someone turning a hobby and a dream into a profession but profession artist derives originally from artisans of the middle ages or other time, individuals skilled by no means concerned with "art for art's sake" (coined by Théophile Gautier in the 19th century). Of course, it should be noted that during the evolution of the modern artist, artists' skills increased but simultaneously the artist sold more their sensibility and "themselves" rather than simply selling their skillfully produced products.

josu 8y ago

Nothing on the top but a bucket and a mop And an illustrated book about birds

jimjimjim 8y ago

youtube/streaming is a low-barrier to entry version of being an actor. so all the crap that actors/actresses put up with is likely to apply to youtube/twitch people. dreams, pressure, long-hours, fame, ratings anxiety, envy, fans, meltdowns. etc.

retox 8y ago

YouTube is the plantation, farming up views, Google the slave master and the algo is their whip.

VikingCoder 8y ago
...except anyone can leave and get a new job, at any moment. The "slave" analogy is completely flawed.
- throwaaa_zzz 8y ago
  It is not an analogy, it is a stylistic exaggeration. European literature is full of this and educated people are expected to detect it as such.
  - VikingCoder 8y ago
    You can just call it "hyperbole." It's a cheap trick which is why it belongs in dramatic literature, not in a discussion based on reason and facts. Another cheap trick is making an alternate throw-away account rather than having a history of comments that people can refer to, to see if you have contributed positively in the past, or if you're just an obnoxious troll.

VikingCoder 8y ago

Entertainment is great. But it's also meaningless. Ephemeral. Fading. If you're improving someone else's life, that's a bit more tangible. I know people who would have died if they hadn't discovered that helping other people makes them feel like life is worth living. So, maybe if you vlog stuff that helps people, that might make it more satisfying. Just a thought.

bitL 8y ago

I see the push to publish frequently has turned YouTube into a perfect hamster wheel :D Another funny consequence of algorithmic optimization. Seems like people that came up with it weren't as smart as they thought. Hint: if 99.99% of your users are consumers and 0.01% are creative producers, from whose only 1/1000 can consistently perform, you wouldn't want to drive them to the ground. Also, pushing increased frequency inevitable lowers quality and increases noise of your platform and prevents unique but occasional hits from being properly rewarded. Is that really good for advertisement?

ozim 8y ago
Ideally people would create content and ones that create more often would have more relevant, better videos because they are committed and professional. It all looks like it went "Cobra effect" where algo incentives are right but people are gaming system so they get profits. The same with SEO, more links to your site better ranking -> people invent link farms. While idea was great in practice all turns out you got bunch of people breeding cobras, links, videos.

Abishek_Muthian 8y ago

When the idea is to showcase what others want you to be and not what you actually want to be; I doubt long-term happiness is on the line.

exabrial 8y ago

Cody Don, an incredible scientist, has to keep taking down his videos on mining because they involved [legal] explosives. AvE had had his share of complaints. And don't forget the myriad of firearm channels that are fighting for their livelihood. While YouTube is a private platform and they are welcome to display whatever content they feel, it is against American ideals to censor creativity and speech if fellow citizens.

rdl 8y ago
Has AvE ever had videos actually taken down, or just demonetized? He seems like he'd respond with something colorful and abrasive suggesting one consider carnal relations with headworn attire.

dsubburam 8y ago

I like to evaluate a job across four metrics: 1. livelihood: does it provide enough $$. 2. meaning: the end product/service, do I find it meaningful. 3. people: do I interact with colleagues, customers, etc. whom I find interesting and respect. 4. process: do I find the work in and of itself enjoyable, tending to put me in a flow state. The YouTubers might be lacking in 3., and depending on their personal tastes/needs, possibly the others too.

FrozenVoid 8y ago

Its really simple, they turned their hobby into work with impossible schedules and really bad overtime. They're unhappy because the work they invented for themselves isn't based on their interests but for popularity and viewers interests. They are afraid of losing audience and missing out of more exposure, because their work defines them as a person - if they start losing popularity/attention their persona was based on, it knocks them down a peg, like a celebrity in the end of their career. So they double down on their work.

Proven 8y ago

Those who watch that nonsense have burned out a long time ago... talk about mental issues...

gamerslife22 8y ago

Sidequest: work/life balance of an addict: 'No one tells you how many hours you should be addicted!' Jet again another:'Striving for _more_user_ engagement'? I am just trying to get a little bit canibalism-humor out of: "googleᵀᴹ is eating children"... (-;

vinayms 8y ago

I don't follow individuals on YouTube but I come across their videos when sucked into the "up next vortex". If they impress me, I check their channel to see what else they have posted. This is my take based on this experience. Most youtubers are one or more of these three: 1. They comment on things, either current events or things in general. 2. They are self designated experts in their field and dole out tips and advice. 3. They make original content of some kind, like comedy skits or other art forms. Then there are the so called bottom feeders, the scourge of modern YouTube, the makers of reaction videos. Their channels are updated quite frequently, if not daily at most one per week. Only small proportion of the videos is worth watching. The rest is total waste of time. Subscribers often vent their frustration in the comments about the content, but for most people you'd have to go past several pages to see disgruntled comments. The top ones are usually favorable ones, and I am unsure of their authenticity. The fundamental problem is that these youtubers mistook dumb luck for talent. When, for some inexplicable reason, some of their early videos went viral, they were egged on by their ego to post more, which is fine. But soon when they ran out of content, instead of quitting or taking a break to regroup, they continued to post substandard content. I know I am being overtly judgemental by using words like 'substandard', and one might contest that by showing how popular these people are - some were even guests on popular US talk shows (one shiela was even on Conan) - but that is my point. I am amazed at the success they got despite such content. I wonder what kind of people are impressed by such content. Its one of the great sociological mysteries to me because, unlike a low quality TV show that persists due to studio bosses persisting with it for whatever reason, on social media things survive due to direct audience interest. Quality intellectual output is quite hard. Even the most gifted comedian won't be funny all the time, the most gifted musician won't make good music all the time, the most gifted philosopher won't say deep thought provoking things all the time. In the current state of society where instant gratification is craved, people don't understand this, and it shows in how mediocrity succeeds time and again in all walks of life. I think this burn out thing is their coming to terms with their lack of quality content and sort of giving up being an imposter. That said, some of the youtubers who post original content are indeed good. If they take time off and develop their talent, they could make a proper career out of it.

Applejinx 8y ago

I'm more of a Patreoner, making around $1000 a month through Patreon and my audio DSP plugins and around $20 a month from YouTube. I have a good sense of why these people are burning out. The only reason I'm able to do that well (still far below minumum wage, if minimum wage legitimately gave you 40 hours a week which I think generally it won't) is that I spent close to ten years entrepreneurially running the same business as a commercial proposition, all by myself. I made between twice and four times as much selling plugins directly to people, but it was COMPLETELY unpredictable and the Patreon is not nearly as unpredictable: provided they don't implode, it's a slow steady growth curve as more people discover what I do. And going commercial didn't protect me from things imploding: I went to Patreon because I'd been using Kagi as a payment processor, and they imploded. They still owe me two months' pay that I will never see. Patreon was one of those bold intuitive jumps where I went 'I'm happier giving my work away, let's gamble my whole life on this working, and if it fails, whatever, I didn't want to live anyway'. Turned out I was able to survive on it, and the relative predictability of the admittedly-lower income is good for my mental health. That was where keeping up a better-than-monthly grind of product releases got me, when I absolutely depended on having 'hit' products to sell to make up for the ones that fizzled, and never knew what was actually going to hit. It's this which is killing the YouTubers. It's not just that they don't know which videos will go viral, it's that they also don't know what the rules are or will be, and worse, they are subject to being algorithmically handicapped in a way they are blind to. The whole system is set up to goad them on to unrealistic behavior, and appears to silently punish them for failure to comply. All they can do is cling to cargo-cult-like obsessive lowest-common-denominator stuff and double down on what they think will help them, which is never actually confirmed by YouTube. This is a recipe for killing people, in action. Being an entrepreneur and small business owner is already sort of fraught with uncertainty: you can fall back on 'if I work hard and do what I do, I can get through to a certain number of people and build a following'. Being a 'Youtuber' is more than twice as bad, because it's that except that your platform can and does literally stop you getting through to your own people if they want to connect your people to some newer youtuber that they would rather stick in the recommendations. The very act of getting through at all is subject to restriction by the YouTube that you're working for, so it's no wonder people are going insane trying to please YouTube.

8y ago

throwaaa_zzz 8y ago

One aspect is that perhaps the concept of a middleman or agent for creative people is not as bad as people claim it to be. It shields you from the fans and a lot more.

HONEST_ANNIE 8y ago

Many youtubers emote (portray emotion in a theatrical manner) the events and issues they narrate. Their work description is simply to be emotionally enthusiastic of whatever happens. If the content of the channel is not deeply meaningful for it's creator anymore, the job loses meaning. The attention and popularity are rewarding but the effect wears out. If the enthusiasm is not genuine, it starts to feel bad.

rdl 8y ago

The crazy and arbitrary demonetization seems like the biggest problem. Anything to the right of YouTube senior management, anything which touches on things they don't like (firearms, including historical information about bolt-action Swiss rifles of the early 1900s), anything even slightly offensive to anyone, etc. runs that risk (although not guaranteed). If you offend anyone, others can retroactively go back and flag innocuous videos, either for content or as a "copystrike". Some of this is the biases of the YouTube management and employees, some is the beliefs of advertisers, but it seems incompetently implemented. Many advertisers would be perfectly happy running in front of "offensive" content in their same domain (e.g. any ammo company would happily run ads before a video about guns; maybe Disney wouldn't), etc. So they are basically making up for limitations in their product with arbitrary and destructive policies against the content creators. I hope a non-YouTube, non-Google platform disrupts them ASAP, although this only seems to be happening inside verticals (like Full30 for firearms).

alphaalpha101 8y ago
I honestly don't know why advertisers care where their advertisements appear. If they all just disclaimed any control over the associations with their advertising nobody would care. Nobody associates the ads with the video content, nobody.
ghaff 8y ago
Dominant distribution channels have always come with their own arbitrary rules and randomness. It used to be the networks for video. It's not that there's any shortage of video and other content distribution platforms. People just want the discovery and monetization associated with YouTube while not wanting to deal with everything that comes from getting in bed with the elephant.

voltagex_ 8y ago

I recently watched Avicii: True Stories [1]. The film looks to have been completed before his death and is all the more sad for it. It's worth watching to see what happens when people are suddenly put into a high pressure, high performance environment 1: http://unogs.com/video/?v=80097519 http://unogs.com/video/?v=80097519 looks to be available on Netflix in the EU, but for some reason nowhere else.

anoncoward111 8y ago

If rent and other serious expenses weren't so costly, then we wouldn't need to work as much. Then we could all breathe a little bit and work a reasonable schedule with a healthy appreciation for creativity.

linsomniac 8y ago

Patreon seems to be in a good position to help the creators with the demonitization situation. One of my favorite Youtube creators has a good day job and seems to deliberately try to trigger the demonitization in his videos. But he has a Patreon that he uses to both fund the videos and to limit the first day or so of release of new videos to fans. I get the impression this helps kick-start the video so that it doesn't get flagged, based on what he has said about it. Youtube is in an interesting position right now. They have a lot of great content, but there are obvious huge problems standing in the way of run-away success. Finding new content is another of the big problems, I use Youtube a lot for "edutainment", but the recommendations engine doesn't really give me much diversity. And the diversity I explore seems to just confuse their recommendations.