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The End of Windows

• twoquestions 9y ago
  So are mom and pop businesses using Chromebooks and Ipads to do their accounting now? Last I checked Windows was still pretty dominant in both Enterprise and midsize businesses, though I could see a food truck being run from a phone (theoretically).
  • SonicSoul 9y ago
    Windows is not going away. it's just been downgraded from primary strategy at Microsoft
    • nightski 9y ago
      As a long time developer on the Microsoft stack (approaching 20 years now?), it seems to me like this makes Microsoft and it's services less relevant and more easily replaceable in the long run. It's clear Azure and the related services are very lucrative, but I feel this is because of the prevalent use of Windows, not in spite of it.
      • pjmlp 9y ago
        Same here, but I don't see any rush to change those Windows desktops by something else, beyond eventually some Macs.
        • SonicSoul 9y ago
          you're thinking about desktops. think servers/mobile. that's a highly competitive space you won't compete in by making windows 10% better every 2 years.
          • pjmlp 9y ago
            Currently Android seems to have lost the tablet war on consumer electronic shops. People are either going for iPads, or hybrid laptops runnig W10. Android devs are to blame, given the little effort to adapt phone apps to tablets.
            • SonicSoul 9y ago
              citation needed http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide
              • pjmlp 9y ago
                So what, if I find a source that contradicts your's would you just put yet another link? I know what I see when I go into a store, travel across Europe and look around for what the other passengers are using. If you feel vindicated by posting some random link asserting you are right, so be it.
                • hesarenu 9y ago
                  What you see and reality can be different. I am from third world i do not see much iPhone users at all. And from the link iPad does have commanding lead over android tablets.
                • SonicSoul 9y ago
                  i'm not posting a "random link" to prove you wrong. I googled around and saw a few sources all of which seem to agree on current market share, which made me genuinely confused by your comment.
                • bitmapbrother 9y ago
                  Here's another link that contradicts your anecdotal stories: https://www.statista.com/statistics/276635/market-share-held-by-tablet-vendors/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/276635/market-share-held...
              • 9y ago
      • SonicSoul 9y ago
        well, as a long time developer in financial enterprise space (18 years) I think MS made a lot of right moves already since Nadela took over. betting all your eggs on Windows dominance proved to be a faulty (and dangerous) strategy especially since a lot of enterprise started using Linux / open source. For example I know a very major hedge fund that went from Windows everywhere to using every open source database they can get their hands on. The whole container strategy is just much easier with linux as well. it's a very hard battle to win. one big co vs every startup betting on OS.
        • gr3yh47 9y ago
          >a lot of enterprise started using Linux / open source. any major players? entire healthcare industry is married to microsoft, at least the big names. same for lots of major enterprises that i know of
        • jasonjayr 9y ago
          Microsoft could kill Linux's foothold in the server + SMB space right now just by simplifying licensing. Get rid of CAL's. Charge a fixed price for a certain # of simultaneously running Windows instances, no matter how you run it. Even charging an ongoing subscription for this would be acceptable. Simplify the licensing situation for SMBs wanting to run an on-premise redundant systems, without needing diagrams to explain the difference between running, standby, CAL's, virtualization, etc. If you're developing software for a platform, trying to figure out how to optimally license that platform should be the least of your concerns, so you can focus on your product.
          • pythonaut_16 9y ago
            This is blatantly false. You're assuming that people only use Linux because they don't want to pay or deal with licensing complexities of Microsoft which is not the case.
            • jasonjayr 9y ago
              That's not the only reason. If the Windows platform brings more to the table than Linux, then for a developer that would weigh more heavily than the complexities of licensing it. I've supported several Windows-centric SMB accounting platforms, including QuickBooks and trying to figure out the right way to license just Windows, in order to support High-availability or redundancy is headache-inducing at the SMB-sized server level.
  • Spooky23 9y ago
    Windows 10 is really difficult for businesses entrenched in Windows to deal with. The work that you need to do in order to unwind from legacy Windows stuff like fat apps, IE-optimized websites, and legacy Office-based workflows makes it pretty easy to move to an iPad to Google, etc. The only thing that Microsoft has going for them is that every other vendor is also fucking up client computing in different ways.
    • GordonS 9y ago
      I've seen problems with websites as IE versions are upgraded, but that happens with or without Windows 10. I haven't seen any issues with apps though, so I have to dispute this claim. We just moved 5,000 employees from Windows 7 to 10, and it went far smoother than anyone really expected - everything just works. It's a wide range of apps too, everything from in-house WPF apps to CAD and engineering software.
      • Spooky23 9y ago
        Janky enterprise crap optimized for IE <whatever> is one big example. The other is old Office stuff like Access databases or workflows dependent on conversion of old file formats. (Last year Office 365 ProPlus purged legacy DBase import for a few months) IE11 support will go away at some point. Many of those apps are now being updated to work on Chrome -- I know of a few large shops that aren't testing IE or Edge anymore for internal apps! I do agree that they did a heroic effort on making the update process incredibly reliable. Most non-prehistoric applications transition seamlessly. Note that I personally equate Windows 10 and the subscription "Office 365 ProPlus". The layers of complexity are astounding. I present to you what I call the "Office 365 ProPlus Build Decoder Ring" - https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Version-and-build-numbers-of-update-channel-releases-ae942449-1fca-4484-898b-a933ea23def7 https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Version-and-build-n... Windows 10 itself has about 8-10 releases that an enterprise needs to think about. Transition from release to release has gotchas and additional Windows-Office gotchas. (For example, the way Office authenticates changes in certain builds) (See: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows-10/release-information https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows-10/release-inf...)
    • 9y ago
  • amyjess 9y ago
    I see iPads everywhere at smaller restaurants. Especially in food courts. I've even seen a few Android tablets (including at one upscale food hall in Plano, TX). Not just restaurants, too; independent stores are picking up tablets at a huge rate. If a store has opened in the last three years or so, they're probably using a tablet as a cash register. Tablets are rapidly taking over the market for cash registers.
    • pjmlp 9y ago
      Many of those tablets are actually running W10.
      • Twisell 9y ago
        Sources?
        • pjmlp 9y ago
          Personal anecdote of what I see being sold on consumer stores here in Germany. Or the restaurants or cocktail bars that happen to have tablets instead of paper menus. They started with iPads, but as their chains got bigger they moved to a mix of Android and W10 tablets. Source, personal anecdote getting out of the menu app into the OS.
          • amyjess 9y ago
            I guess that's just a difference between Germany and the US (or at least Texas). Most of the tablets I've seen in stores and restaurants are actual iPad hardware, the virtual keyboard used when entering information is the iOS keyboard, and the Square app follows the Apple design guidelines. And the rare occasions when I encounter an Android tablet, I recognize it from the virtual keyboard. Case in point: the food hall I mentioned in my above post. When you buy something, it asks you if you'd like to enter your phone number so they can text you when your order's ready. When I chose to enter my number, I instantly recognized the keyboard for that as the Android 4.x keyboard.
          • 9y ago
  • jsty 9y ago
    Anecdata: most of the SMBs I know are using web/cloud-based accounting products, and like it for varying reasons (not having to manage / upgrade the software, easy to collaborate with their accountant) but a major one is being able to access their accounts from anything with a web browser.
    • bluedino 9y ago
      They still do 'the work' in Excel
    • rootusrootus 9y ago
      As a counterpoint, my wife runs her own bookkeeping business and pretty much all of her clients are using Quickbooks on Windows workstations, with no real desire to try anything new. I know a couple people myself that are using cloud-based accounting products but they seem to be the exception. In both cases they are tech businesses, which perhaps makes them more open to trying something new than a typical small business.
      • amyjess 9y ago
        I'll take a guess and say that these are all older businesses. Businesses that started before the advent of cloud software will continue to use QuickBooks because that's what the owners know, and why fix something that isn't broken? But newer businesses that started in the last few years will be much more likely to use cloud software because it's so much more convenient.
        • dboreham 9y ago
          There are non-technical reasons to prefer locally hosted accounting software. Privacy is one if them.
          • dumbfounder 9y ago
            Do you mean privacy, or security? It would be a massive breach of trust if SaaS accounting products were harvesting your business data a la Facebook...
  • GlitchMr 9y ago
    For me, the experience is that it's harder to find an accounting software that is Windows-only. Pretty much many of those are running inside of a web browser. Your experience may vary depending on where you live however.
  • dmart 9y ago
    In my experience... yes. At least in the Pittsburgh area, every food truck, small boutique, expo vendor, etc. that I've encountered has used Square and an iPad to handle payments.
  • innocentoldguy 9y ago
    I own a small business and I run my accounting with FreshBooks, which I can easily use via my phone, iPad, or MacBook. I haven't used windows for 18 years. I'm probably an outlier, but it can be done.
    • maxxxxx 9y ago
      It can be done but usually going Windows is the path of least resistance for most non tech users.
      • Twisell 9y ago
        I can agree that windows can be the path of least resistance because of legacy business softwares. But please don't even start to argue that windows is more easy to use than an iPad.
        • maxxxxx 9y ago
          For a lot of professional things windows (Or Mac or Linux) is better. For data entry a tablet is a real pain. I wouldn't want to do accounting on an iPad for example.
          • innocentoldguy 9y ago
            How is doing small business accounting on an iPad, with a keyboard, any different that doing small business accounting on a Surface? You tap on the screen where you want to put data and type. Also, when using FreshBooks, which is what my comment was about, once you set up your customers, line items, and rates, creating an invoice involves about five taps and maybe typing in the number of hours/quantity, if it differs from the default of 1. That's it. I'm not sure how Windows could possibly make that any easier.
      • innocentoldguy 9y ago
        How does "going Windows" make doing small business accounting easier?
  • SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
    Anecdotal I know but my business employs 4 people and a few (including myself) are full time Linux users. I use Xero for our accounts and I'm very happy with it.
• walterbell 9y ago
  Dear Microsoft, If you’re not using the PC, can we have it back? — General Purpose Computing
  • pjmlp 9y ago
    Sure, Which lock down version of Apple or Google systems do you prefer? -- Microsoft
    • binaryjay 9y ago
      Did someone say lock down? We have you covered from mobile to PC's. -- Microsoft.
  • shmerl 9y ago
    > If you’re not using the PC, can we have it back? Sure, install Linux and feel free.
    • walterbell 9y ago
      UEFI history: https://www.linux.com/learn/how-install-linux-windows-machine-uefi-secure-boot https://www.linux.com/learn/how-install-linux-windows-machin...
      • shmerl 9y ago
        Luckily most motherboard makers allow disabling this, which makes installation quite easy.
  • jacquesm 9y ago
    General Purpose Computing using PC's is a thing because of Microsoft (and IBM). Without those two there would have never been a PC in the first place. The forces against general purpose computing are to be found on 1 infinite loop and 1600 Amphitheatre parkway.
    • 9y ago
• eric_b 9y ago
  I'll be interested to see how this bifurcation of the Windows team plays out. Windows 10 has been a mixed bag - some nice new features but also a lot of half baked buggy stuff. The evergreen nature of Windows 10 feels like the right move, but I'm worried they're going to let the OS stagnate. There's already a lot of low hanging fruit they could clean up with an update, but haven't. I'm not a huge fan of using my tablet or phone for things. I almost always prefer using a "real" operating system. I know that puts me in the minority to an extent, but I'm not the only one. The problem is, neither major desktop OS is moving in a direction I like. I guess I'm just getting old and cranky.
  • bigmanwalter 9y ago
    Linux on desktop is pretty amazing. Haven't looked back in 3 years.
    • pjmlp 9y ago
      Yep, the other day I was also pretty amazed how using VS Code alongside Rust, for writing a Gtk-rs application, managed to hang X forcing me to reboot the whole thing. With the open source AMD drivers.
      • erric 9y ago
        I have been quite impressed with VS Code. I’m....honestly shocked I’m using it but it’s doing what it advertises and is doing it pretty well. Sublime is getting less use these days.
        • Fnoord 9y ago
          Memory consumption and speed are apparently not important for you then, and that's fair enough. To each their own. I can only use so many resource hogs before my laptop says no. It starts with battery life and memory consumption. Speed (and benchmarks) is a good early warning sign.
        • pjmlp 9y ago
• holtalanm 9y ago
  i would have stopped using windows years ago if i could get games to run decently on linux.
  • jimktrains2 9y ago
    There are many games that run well in Linux, including a large portion of the Steam library! If you meant a specific game to run, well then you need to weight your pros and cons and stop whining when you make your decision. Alternatively, dual boot.
    • someguy1234567 9y ago
      I do that for GTA5. The only time I switch back to Windows. I don't even restart, I just hibernate linux and then everything is still there when I come back!
    • AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
      Or he could ignore people like you and just use Windows. If you're going to have a bunch of headaches you may as well stick to the ones you're familiar with on the system that actually does what you want pretty well.
      • jimktrains2 9y ago
        > Or he could ignore people like you and just use Windows. GP is the one who said he'd move to linux if there were games. I didn't imply he was wrong for using Windows. I think you (and all other siblings) are reading more into my comment than there actually is.
    • MikkoFinell 9y ago
      Alternatively, grow up and stop playing games.
      • Asooka 9y ago
        That's not really what "growing up" means.
• mariusmg 9y ago
  About that reorganization : "Today, I’m announcing the formation of two new engineering teams" "Windows: Joe Belfiore will continue leading our Windows experiences and will drive Windows innovation in partnership with the PC and device ecosystem" How does this exactly means they are giving up on Windows ?! Seriously, wishful thinking much ?
  • oaiey 9y ago
    They are not giving up Windows. They just adjusted the organization to reflect the fact that Windows itself is no longer as important as in the 90s.
  • rdiddly 9y ago
    Aye, 'tis the baiting o'the click.
• asveikau 9y ago
  I still can't wrap my head around everything that was wrongheaded about Windows 8, and I was working there for most of its dev cycle. One wonders what would have happened if they just sort of let Windows be Windows. I.e. if they had continued iterating on core stuff but left UI and general philosophy resembling Win7's trajectory and not tried to force people into WinRT/UWP/store. Even though Win10 attempted corrective action it always struck me that it was still accepting the fundamental thesis of Win8. They still kept with the Orwellian redefinition of phrases like "Windows app" to mean very recent, immature and unproven technology. They were still talking about ARM devices that don't let you do a straightforward recompile of old code. They were still pushing the Store as the only means to distribute software, where even Apple has not succeeded in changing people's habits on the desktop. I hope that with a weaker organization, people keeping the lights on for Windows will know to not shake things up too severely and ease up on pushing some of these silly ideas. I somehow doubt it. I've been hoping for that for... 7 years?
  • djsumdog 9y ago
    or if Windows 8 had set one UI default for tablets and the other default for desktops. The OS was faster and had better load times. It was a far cry from the failure of Windows Vista. It was just that start menu that really killed it for most people.
  • alkonaut 9y ago
    They bet the farm on “store”. Why? Because they must have done the math and realized that the enterprise and “creative pro” desktop with classic expensive desktop apps is a dead end. Was that calculation correct? Who knows. But I have to think they did that analysis very carefully.
    • asveikau 9y ago
      I think it's more likely that there was a team or more likely several teams looking to make a name for itself, and they concluded that forcing everyone in the Windows desktop monopoly to use its stuff was the way to get that work noticed. I am sure that a bunch of the people responsible were praised as top performers and rewarded for their victory. When the original people are cycled out there is already inertia and it doesn't really occur to people that the previous blunder needs to be rolled back.
• osullivj 9y ago
  No mention of Windows popularity as crypto mining server OS, due to superior GPU driver SW.
• Shank 9y ago
  Early Windows was a great platform for the users that it served. But every few years, the Windows product itself had one of those "off years." It arguably started with NT 4.0 for workstations, then again with Windows ME, then Vista, and then arguably 8. This interleaving strategy was okay when they were the only market player, but now that there's actually good competition in the computing space (read: smartphones and chromebooks), it's not so good. All of the little sacrifices that Windows has to make to move itself forward are cuts that make people reconsider using it in the first place. I honestly wonder what world it would be if every Windows release had "stuck the landing." If we had a super solid Vista and a super solid Windows 8, would Microsoft even be in remotely the same position as they are now? Probably not, because it would actually have been the preferred choice, and not just the default.
  • thriftwy 9y ago
    Unarguably 8! My mother owns Windows 8 laptop and she is still stuck every time she falls into "blocky start" menu or or any of Metro apps. She just doesn't understand what is happening anymore, and how to exit this mode which she never asked for. What helps here is that all those apps are absolutely useless. It's a disaster disaster disaster.
• ynniv 9y ago
  This seems like a ridiculous strategy. Who would abandon an ecosystem that they own over 80% of? If they're spending too much money on it, stop adding features and harden what they already have. It's increasingly clear that macOS isn't business-level stable, and Linux isn't polished... No one has an Android device on their desk at work. Maybe if they stopped trying to take over the world they would realize that they already own a huge part of it. If they don't care, they should sell it to someone who does.
  • jmuguy 9y ago
    They're not abandoning Windows or the ecosystem. This is just the end of it as the tip of the spear/driving force for MS strategy. Nadella is (rightly, imo) focusing more on o365 and Azure. One of the points the article makes is that Ballmer's MS would do things like not release Office for iOS because that would potentially eat into Windows marketshare. That no longer will happen. MS sees its more important to get o365 everywhere they can. From my perspective, switching small businesses over to Exchange Online and other o365 services - The future is bright for MS in that space. These SMBs we've switched over have gone from using a version of Office they purchased forever ago and an old Exchange license to paying 50-100 a month for Office 365.
    • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Not saying that you are wrong, but iOS office was in development long before Ballmer left, so never isn’t as true as “not soon enough.”
    • ynniv 9y ago
      I agree that getting Office to run on Android and iOS is a bright future, but that doesn't mean you put Windows in the corner with "some other stuff". Maybe there are too many people on it and they've gotten too comfortable? Spin it out into a company with half the staff and let it soak up its own sun.
      • bluGill 9y ago
        The problem with Windows is operating systems are a commodity. You shouldn't care about it. You are about opening your documents on your desktop and phone - you don't even care what program opens the documents. Mac OSX, Linux+desktop (any of several), IOS, and Android are all operating systems that can do everything you need of an OS, except MAYBE run windows programs. Which is to say Windows as a separate company probably cannot make it long term.
• pier25 9y ago
  So Windows will basically keep on existing to run Office and Visual Studio?
• mediocrejoker 9y ago
  What I don't understand is, with Apple and Microsoft moving to "services" business-models, who do they see as providing the hardware for this future they envision? I don't think we are near the point where either laptops or phones are a commodity. If nobody want to make hardware their first priority, how is anyone going to ensure the best experience for the customers using their serviceS?
  • jen20 9y ago
    Is there any evidence that Apple are moving to a services model? More than anyone else, they have succeeded at making services add-ons for their own hardware. (edited to fix a typo)
    • mediocrejoker 9y ago
      Not sure how true it is. It's been a popular narrative recently, including discussion on Stratechery[0]. Some say that Apple has been pushing the idea as a way to distract from slowing hardware sales for the last 2 years or so. [0] https://stratechery.com/2018/apples-middle-age/ https://stratechery.com/2018/apples-middle-age/
  • jpalomaki 9y ago
    Apple is not moving to services, they are very much a hardware company. Services are for them more like a thing to make the hardware more attractive. Microsoft has not really been in hardware space before (except consoles, otherwise it was mostly accessories). I believe they jumped to laptops, tablets and desktops to have full control of the user experience.
    • WorldMaker 9y ago
      Right, given the *soft in the name, Microsoft has never seen itself as a hardware company and every move it has made into hardware (except Nokia) was reluctant and to fill a need for software they couldn't convince hardware friends to make at scale for them. Microsoft started building mice because they wanted to add a wheel to them to make working in Office applications better. Microsoft started building 2-in-1 tablet laptops (Surface) because they'd been calling it the future for a decade and no one was paying attention. For the most part Microsoft's hardware strategy is at its best in "if you build it, they will come (and copy it as soon as they understand why you built it)" mode.
• nimbius 9y ago
  Just because Microsoft is desparate to unshackle themselves from a loss-leader doesnt mean its about to happen anytime soon, albeit an announcement like this will certainly goose the stock. The only person angrier about missing the app-store cloud-based moneytrain is likely Larry Ellison whos already furiously trying to saw off the Oracle Database boat anchor. You're going to need to convince your channel partners this is a thing that has to happen, and you're going to expect a revolt because so many tertiary industries are contingent upon Windows and its licenses. The tear-down for everything from the Windows app-store to the ballmer-era brick and mortar "windows store" is going to be significant. There are also laboratories, power plants, hospitals, and prisons that all rely heavily on Windows, so expect to be on the hook from state level government for quite a while...the "end" of windows also confirms the wastefully squandered effort to get Germany to obsolete its massive and very functional Linux deployment. You'll also need to have a substantive marketshare in, say, cloud in order to start deprecating Windows. Outside of Redmonds own inflated reporting, Azure isnt exactly a competitor. Most devs would rather walk off a cliff than learn a new API --one that only Microsoft uses-- for cloud that is not EC2 compatible in any way. Conversely there are more than 40 providers of cloud services that all managed an EC2 api for objects.
• cornholio 9y ago
  I would love for Microsoft to launch it's own Android-compatible ecosystem, starting from the open source base of Android and building alternatives to Google's proprietary technology (location & mapping, email, browsing, app store etc.). They are one of the few companies who have the capacity to do that and already have products in place to cover 80% of what is required. While I'm not exactly a fan of Microsoft, there is nothing I dread more than a closed platform controlled by a single company, and Google is moving more and more aggressively in that direction. There is now a whole industry dedicated to installing hacked Google products on devices Google does not approve of.
  • TheForumTroll 9y ago
    But even Google is moving away from Android! ;)
  • bitmapbrother 9y ago
    I'm always baffled whenever someone comes up with these wacky Google Android replacement suggestions. It's as if they selectively choose to ignore history and the billions, that would be futilely squandered, pursuing something that has absolutely zero chance of ever succeeding or even being profitable. I'm not sure what fantasy world you reside in, but replacing Google's proprietary apps and services with Microsoft's proprietary apps is not only a significantly less value proposition for the consumer, but there's absolutely no incentive for the consumer or OEM to even remotely consider such a platform. You will never have the ecosystem and you will never have the developer support and whatever developers and OEM's you do manage to bribe over they'll quickly abandon the platform once the payola dries up. >There is now a whole industry dedicated to installing hacked Google products on devices Google does not approve of. I think you meant to say there was until Google closed that loophole.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
• alkonaut 9y ago
  You can have my windows when I can game properly somewhere else (and no, no you can’t).
  • TheForumTroll 9y ago
    Xbox and PlayStation. The "problem" is that you want to game on your PC, not that there isn't another viable option.
    • rootlocus 9y ago
      There's also game development, with both art and engineering departments running windows.
    • weirdwitch 9y ago
      Can you point me to the console version of Dota 2?
      • Sylos 9y ago
        I mean, that particular game does run exceptionally well on Linux. I think, even quite a bit better than on Windows, unless your GPU's drivers for Linux happen to be shit, of course. But yeah, the overall point still stands. If you have a particular game that you don't feel like you can substitute and it's not available on a platform that you'd like to switch to, you're probably not switching to that platform.
    • cjarrett 9y ago
      Mouse / Keyboard input. Though, that is opening up more and more nowadays.....
      • WorldMaker 9y ago
        Xbox One supports it natively (via good old USB) as of a "silent" update a year ago or so. Not all games support it (for various reasons of engines and developer preference), but you might be surprised the ones that do.
• justaaron 9y ago
  Microsoft is squandering the decades of work humans put into drivers, an OS codebase that is unique and omnipresent, and if they can't see how useless and crap all their other services are without the conceptual core that powered their rise to sucess, then they will die. - windows domains - group policy - roaming profiles - drivers written for in-house equipment, ranging from machining to mass spectrometry, done over decades, and basically compatible back to NT 4, until M$ screws everything up... They just don't know where their bread is buttered, and their bean counting practices are evidently obscuring it, as they keep doing stupid crap decisions like Office365. They should stabilize and streamline what they already built...
  • zeth___ 9y ago
    Everything that has drivers for Windows now has better drivers for Linux. I've plugged in 4x12m cnc machines that just worked out of the box. We did it for shits and giggles to see how bad it would screw up.
  • wilde 9y ago
    If they play their cards right, this will actually strengthen that part of the universe. Windows was led by people who wanted it to be a consumer operating system in every home. That lead them to do a bunch of stuff that was nonsensical to the business world (Win8 start screen on Windows Server? Seriously?) This move makes Windows subservient to people who actually understand those users. Their continued dominance in business is contingent on them preparing their products for the next wave of workers. The generation that grew up typing papers out on their phones is going to have a different expectation of what productivity means. They’re going to have to scramble to meet it. Since Salesforce is not so quietly buying a modern productivity portfolio to take it from them.
  • remir 9y ago
    It's not the end of Windows. The title of the article is a bit click bait-y. Without the "we need to dominate the market and be everywhere" people pushing devs to implement feature nobody wants and have to deactivate anyways, Windows will get better for the people that love (and need) to use it.
• blinkingled 9y ago
  It isn't really the end of Windows - it's the end of Windows' dominance of Microsoft mindshare. Windows 10 was the giant step in that direction - an always updating, maintenance mode, single OS that MS will need to support. Arguably until Win 7 dies out they won't be entirely there but once they are, maintaining Windows is a much simpler affair than yesteryears. None of this means Windows itself is dying - it only means the OS has matured enough for the needs of present and any future needs will be addressed as and when they arise - instead of inventing the future they will abide with it on their own schedule. This allows Microsoft to focus on things that truly matter for the future without killing Windows or spending a lot of resources on advancing/supporting it. It's not hard to imagine Windows stays a very dominant client OS for a long time to come - even if the overall PC market share continues to decline, because none of the alternatives are there and nobody is going to invest the resources to get them there. I will also add that Satya's success lies in speeding up this strategy that started late under Ballmer and also in executing so well on it. Considering the scale of what MS is doing - Office ports to iOS, Android, Windows 10 releases, Azure, ton of other Enterprise stuff (Exchange, O365, Development tools, cross platform stuff like .NET Core, VS Code etc) - the change of course and the success they are having with it all - you can't argue it's not a phenomenal achievement.
  • cpeterso 9y ago
    You can see a nice graph showing (Firefox) users steadily upgrading from Windows 7 to 10 from Mozilla's Firefox telemetry: https://hardware.metrics.mozilla.com/#goto-os-and-architecture https://hardware.metrics.mozilla.com/#goto-os-and-architectu...
    • bhauer 9y ago
      That hardware report is surprising to me in many ways. * In 2018, the most popular resolution for users of Firefox is still 1366x768. And only 1920x1080 is making any headway against the dominance of 1366x768. As much as I am surrounded by the culture of multiple 4K+ displays, apparently this is not at all commonplace. 4K doesn't even get listed, presumably lumped into the "Other" category. * In 2018, the most popular memory amount for users of Firefox is still 4GB, trailed by the also disappointingly small 8GB. In my world, I consider 16GB a bare minimum, but at least with memory I haven't been deluding myself—I know many people economize on memory. Still, I would have thought 8GB was the most common memory size by now. * A surprising number of people still have Flash installed. I can barely conceive of the poor experience of running a modern web browser on 4 GB of memory at 1366x768. Can you imagine the user experience of today's modern over-JavaScripted web pages on such underpowered hardware: not simply slow because of their grotesquely large transmission payload but also because they caused your computer to start swapping memory pages to disk?
• joshmarinacci 9y ago
  I'm excited by the end of Windows, or really the end of dominance of desktop OSes. This means we will have the freedom to innovate again and do some really wild things.
• kerng 9y ago
  Better title would be the end of the Windows Division at Microsoft. Certainly not the end of Windows - it's an enormous revenue generator for Microsoft. But I believe it shows that they believe the future lies within Azure, AI and Microsoft 365. This will probably help them focus.
• MichaelMoser123 9y ago
  Windows desktop was always driving demand for Windows enterprise, why else would you need exchange servers and CIFS/SMB file servers? Who would buy MS SQL server licences without the larger lock in effect? Maybe they think that the cloud has broken this dependency, but I think they are bringing ruin over the house of Redmond (in the long run)
• shard972 9y ago
  If windows 10 is the end then i think It's safe to say I will never be returning to windows for as long as I can help it. Between it's spyware and its tendency to just do things without telling you, without giving you an easy way to stop, it is just not something that feels comfortable enough to use anymore for power users. It feels like whatever I gain in convience, is lost when trying to figure out what windows is doing with all that CPU/RAM/Network usage or how to disable some new service that I have 0 interest in.
• gsich 9y ago
  Still the best desktop OS, sadly.
• pmarreck 9y ago
  Ballmer must be the #1 executive who has gotten the farthest on the least intelligence.
  • cornholio 9y ago
    Ballmer had a perfect 800 score on his SAT math section. He kept the company expanding revenue and profits for a decade and a half, which is an eternity in Internet time. His Windows on mobile strategy was a few years late from being a huge success (agreed, that is also an eternity).
    • pmarreck 9y ago
      Intelligence is not just your SAT math score (and for the record, I had a 770). His business/tactical decisions were obvious ones once Windows achieved hegemony.
    • azemetre 9y ago
      Are we seriously equating business intelligence with a high school aptitude test that covers rudimentary mathematics?
• ohazi 9y ago
  > Smartphones first addressed needs the PC couldn’t, then over time started taking over PC functionality directly I still don't understand how anybody gets any real work done on a smartphone. Has work suddenly gotten so simplistic that most people really don't need a keyboard? They're dragging and tapping and writing IM-like sentence fragments riddled with autocorrect typos? And this is acceptable? Seriously?
  • badprose 9y ago
    I think its lots of jobs that didn't need full-on computers in the first place.
  • 013a 9y ago
    I think that's the mistake Ballmer made with Windows Phone. He and the other leadership saw the rise of the smartphone and thought "that's the future". The reality is more nuanced; the smartphone created a new market, but it definitely hasn't supplanted the existing "home computer" market, or even really hurt it in any way. Microsoft should have recognized that, recognized they were late to the party, just let Google & Apple have it, and instead focus on integrating with their products and doubling down on the "home & professional computer" segment they already lead in. But they were late to that as well because of Ballmer's mistake, which gave Apple the in to position the iPad as an up-and-coming product in this segment.
    • shinratdr 9y ago
      > The reality is more nuanced; the smartphone created a new market, but it definitely hasn't supplanted the existing "home computer" market, or even really hurt it in any way. This is demonstrably wrong. The home computer market isn't even a market that exists in many parts of the world. To see that phones can supplant the home computer market almost entirely in Africa and India and say it has no effect here is crazy. You can already watch it happen. Will people need a computer to do long form typing? Maybe, although for many a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard will suffice. Will an average family of 4-5 need more than one though? Will many people just get by sharing a laptop one family member got from work, or an old clunker they use just to edit essays for school? Absolutely. Will smartphones and tablets kill home computers? No, not for a long time. Will they pretty much cap any growth in that market, and turn them into trucks when they were formerly cars? Without a doubt.
• gaius 9y ago
  The end of Windows is the year of the Linux desktop
  • lucaspottersky 9y ago
    Linux desktop will never thrive. I'm sorry to tell you that. it's more likely that some other player just releases a completely new OS to replace Windows. just like Chrome replaced IE (and not Firefox).
    • gaius 9y ago
      Linux desktop will never com Exactly.
• grewil2 9y ago
  I won't support OSes such as Windows and MacOS until they give me the same core user freedoms that you get with GNU/Linux.
• 013a 9y ago
  I think its impossible to understate how much damage Ballmer did to Microsoft. That being said: I think Microsoft is in a fantastic position right now under Satya. Windows isn't going anywhere, and they're accepting the reality that it might just be a "portal" into web technology in a similar vein to Chromebooks. This is a reality Apple refuses to accept, for better or worse. But, Windows still comes with those massively powerful internals that enable more powerful professional experiences for the users that need them. This is, really, the only platform in the world that champions both. MacOS obviously has those powerful foundations and can run webapps natively, but its not something christened by Apple. iOS is the same way, but with less powerful foundations. ChromeOS? Android? Linux Desktop? They're not even considerations in this world. Then you consider the massive success of their Xbox and Azure divisions, and I think anyone who bets against Microsoft right now isn't doing it cogently. They have a lot of legacy and Ballmer's strategic mistakes to get right, but I legitimately think they'll come out of the next 5 years in a better financial position than Google.
• Froyoh 9y ago
  Offtopic: What font is used on that webpage? It's very comfortable to the eye.
  • mpnordland 9y ago
    Firefox Dev tools say Freight Sans Pro
  • suprfnk 9y ago
    Interesting, I actually changed the font on the webpage because I found it too thin.
• dgudkov 9y ago
  Windows used to be the biggest market differentiator for Microsoft. What does Azure do that Amazon or Google can't? What would make Microsoft uniquely different if it had no Windows?
• laythea 9y ago
  When my child gets older and leaves home, I won't be saying its the end of him. He has just matured. Similarly, this just marks the maturity level of Windows, where there really is no significant innovation in operating systems release after release. Nothing like win 3.1 -> win 95 etc. Its been that way for a while. Obviously its cash that motives this move from Microsoft, however I wouldn't want Microsoft changing the location of the start menu every release just to stir up the market and justify a release (for example) every year. I remember a cherished time where the next operating system release felt like an upgrade to myself as well as my PC. I could do more than before. No longer. We have it all nowadays and have became spoilt.
  • dmix 9y ago
    The more comments I read on here the more it seems people have only read the headline, or have only a surface level grasp of the content, without really understanding what the author is saying. "The End of Windows" = "The End of Windows as the core foundation of the various Microsoft divisions/services/apps" It does not mean the end of Windows as an important part of Microsoft...at all. Rather it's about decoupling Windows from the rest of the other divisions to reflect the reality of today's non-PC centric world where Window's is merely one client among other mobile/cloud/AI/IoT/etc clients. As others have pointed out, the perfect example is how Ballmer didn't want to release Office for iPad until Windows had a touch screen version to compete with it. It means more flexibility for both the company and for Windows, which is win-win for Microsoft consumers and Windows users.
    • majormajor 9y ago
      Generally I think we call that "clickbait," no? :) Headlines like that make some people less likely to actually read the article, especially on HN.
• youdontknowtho 9y ago
  To read things like this and everyone's comments, you would think that Microsoft isn't making a mega-ton of money every quarter, which they are. Everyone keeps talking about Azure and AWS like there isn't room for both and that Azure hasn't been growing like crazy. Amateur tech punditry at its finest.
• z3t4 9y ago
  People are still loyal to Windows, because that's what they are used to. And PC's and laptops still has Windows pre-installed.
• Animats 9y ago
  Microsoft's Windows and Office products are now in the product position of commercial trucks. Every business of any size has some commercial trucks. Businesses buy them, use them, maintain them, and replace them when necessary. They're not exciting, but they get the job done. Nobody thinks about them much. Microsoft should just accept that they sell a commercial product for businesses and make a good solid product that needs little attention and gets the job done. Like Mack trucks.
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• candybar 9y ago
  I'm surprised no one mentioned this but the biggest takeaway for me is that it moves Windows one step closer to becoming open source. We're still many steps away and it's going to be more like the hybrid model of Android or even OSX/iOS/Darwin and but it seems much more feasible now, even if it starts with baby steps.
  • ozim 9y ago
    I think that started when Ballmer finished his reign. Even with his developers, developers, developers mantra, .NET ecosystem was not as awesome as now it is, open source with .NET Core runtime on Linux and MacOS.
  • w0rd-driven 9y ago
    Windows is touted as the largest git repository. What service like Github or Gitlab could handle something that massive? I'm sure they could scale eventually but if that ever happened MS would likely have to house the repository and at that point they might as well keep it closed source or open source with a subscription cost that goes into the infrastructure upkeep. I'd honestly love for more portions of Windows to become open source and slowly work up to the full repository. I think there would be an immediate influx of 0days as people find holes but I would hope they would close quickly. It's still a very big gamble to let go of something you've literally built your foundation on but I do hope that instead of Windows silently going into oblivion that they'll open it up for the masses, even if they would no longer have the resources to support it. I feel like someone or company would step up. Having said all that, I'm going on 4 years in mostly macOS. The missteps in High Sierra are pretty abysmal but not the end of the world. I hope Apple really changes their processes to keep the OS stable but I see this downward trend in just about all PC-like operating systems. It's like everyone sees the end of the line coming and they're just half assing every move they make. I think Meltdown/Spectre was a major blow that has probably single handedly slowed all momentum to a standstill. Granted my sample size is very small but I really hope I'm just looking at this big lull right before an evolution/revolution.
• eljimmy 9y ago
  Microsoft really should have pursued creating a version of Windows specifically for gaming. I imagine there are lot of users who only use Windows for that purpose.
  • e12e 9y ago
    They do have the Xbox..
    • eljimmy 9y ago
      Yeah, I meant for PC gaming.
• bradb3030 9y ago
  There's a book "Zone to Win" by Geoffrey A. Moore that describes these various transitions for Microsoft and it suggests that it's intentional to transition one business unit at a time.
• hoodoof 9y ago
  Windows is still a mess... inconsistent interface, multiple ways to configure the same thing, the registry..... I know it's not the same market circumstances but this feels alot like the decision to stop development of ie6 after Microsoft beat Netscape.
• keithnz 9y ago
  I think it would be better titled :- windows is dead, long live windows! I think this article better explains things http://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-and-why-microsoft-is-splitting-up-windows-in-its-latest-reorg/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-and-why-microsoft-is-...
• partiallypro 9y ago
  Mac OS is far closer to death than Windows.
• candiodari 9y ago
  So clearly the market has chosen, and walled gardens where users don't have the freedom to run their own code or apps, their own OSes prevented with locked bootloaders, locked apps (no ability to interfere with apps running on YOUR device, e.g. read their data), ... and so on is now the default policy. Never again will one app be compatible with others without a business agreement between them ... because that just can't be allowed (dixit $100 million per year+ managers at these huge companies, and I'm sure it's 100% coincidence that this would allow small companies to compete with them. Totally unrelated to this decision). Can't work in the cloud, can't work on android, can't work on IOS. And for that matter, can't work on UWP. And of course let's not forget that the massive cost, that everyone's data is now 100% accessible to law enforcement and civil courts (and thus to anyone with the money to sue you) is just acceptable damage. After all, that doesn't affect $100 billion plus companies much at all. Their argument is that it can make web banking unsafe. Yes ... that's true. It can. What is does 99.999% of the time however is enforce the market dominance of really large players. But, like people walking into a camp during WWII, nobody holds a moment of silence when they enter the compound with the large barbed wire. Nobody regrets what's happening when they lock the gate. Only years later, when all the bodies are found ... then we stop and think. This is them locking the gate. Now comes years and years of really really bad applications, and exploiting the lockin. And yes, the only system not in a locked ecosystem is the PC ecosystem (needless to say, this is the ecosystem that ALL of these large companies use, MS, Google and Apple, for themselves. And now they're locking it for the rest of us)