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Home-made drones now threaten conventional armed forces
- sushisource 9y agoReminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA Which is one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. The video glosses over the fact that EMPs would probably make for a viable (if collateral-damage-inducing) defense, but still pretty terrifying.
- pmoriarty 9y ago"The video glosses over the fact that EMPs would probably make for a viable (if collateral-damage-inducing) defense, but still pretty terrifying." Some other possible defenses are other drones and flack clouds. A flack cloud in the classroom in the video might have defeated the drones. Both of these defenses might be staged strategically throughout various public places or even carried by individuals for their own protection. If drone attacks become common, anti-drone defenses are likely to become widespread as well. I'm personally more concerned about potential chemical, biological, and nuclear warfare, against which there's really not much that people can do, and which might eventually become as easy to perpetrate as conventional drone attacks (and might even be facilitated by them).
- keldaris 9y ago> I'm personally more concerned about potential chemical, biological, and nuclear warfare, against which there's really not much that people can do, and which might eventually become as easy to perpetrate as conventional drone attacks (and might even be facilitated by them). I think most of that concern is misplaced. It will never be easy for non-state actors to conduct nuclear warfare (unless you count inefficient small scale radiological attacks) and while a sufficiently dedicated group can synthesize chemical weapons, it's easier and generally more efficient to just build a big truck bomb (or ten). Biological warfare is more complicated, both because it depends on your definitions (it could be said that every person stupid enough to go to work with the flu is engaging in biological warfare, they're certainly doing more damage than all the world's terrorists put together ever have), but also because that's the one area where rapidly developing technology really could have a huge impact in the near future.
- virgilp 9y ago> every person stupid enough to go to work with the flu is engaging in biological warfare Well, you could say that.... But it's about as smart as engaging in a fight against micro-aggressions. If you fight for a society where the individual can't even handle minor stress factors, you fight for a society with little to no immune system, that is all but guaranteed to crumble.
- taneq 9y agoThe scariest thing I've seen in the past few years was that "artwork" with a culture (I think it was E. Coli but it might have been staph) growing on a large sheet of agar which had been doped with a gradient of various antibiotics, and showed the bacteria slowly adapting and working its way through them. A small change to this setup could easily be used to grow multi-antibiotic-resistant diseases in someone's back shed. I actually kind of don't want to post this comment in case it gives someone ideas.
- bsder 9y agoExcept that antibiotic resistance also goes away very quickly unless the bacteria are kept in an environment conducive to it. Antibiotic resistance is expensive evolutionarily. Most of our resistant bacteria are coming from something that makes holding onto resistance a survival trait. Antibiotic overuse in factory farming or hospitals which obviously are continuously battling bacteria are two of the prime generators.
- privong 9y ago> Except that antibiotic resistance also goes away very quickly unless the bacteria are kept in an environment conducive to it. Antibiotic resistance is expensive evolutionarily. This is the first time I've heard this. Can you recommend some references with more info on it?
- cstejerean 9y agoHere are two studies from the first page of a Google search on "losing antibiotic resistance", Long-term starvation-induced loss of antibiotic resistance in bacteria https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24196362 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24196362 Loss of Antibiotic Resistance in Staphylococcus aureus Resulting from Growth at High Temperature http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/micro/42/3/mic-42-3-403.pdf?expires=1518151991&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=2A3A0392A30F07ACF8F576F19F7755FA http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/micro... And here's a more high level answer from the Biology StackExchange on the mechanism by which this happens with a link to 3 other papers on the underlying subject https://biology.stackexchange.com/a/15930 https://biology.stackexchange.com/a/15930
- mattkrause 9y agoThat video isn't real: check the "manufacturer's" webpage and you will see that it is part of a 'Stop Autonomous Weapons' campaign. That said, a lot of it is surprisingly plausible (though maybe not the grainy filming-a-CRT overlays).
- bowmessage 9y agoOf course it isn't real, but it's not far from possible at this point which is why it's such an effective campaign piece.
- mirimir 9y agoYes, it's Adbusters-style advocacy.
- ralfd 9y agoNot only warfare: http://www.businessinsider.de/drones-carrying-drugs-and-explosives-amid-mexicos-criminal-warfare-2017-10?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.de/drones-carrying-drugs-and-expl...
- jstanley 9y agoDid you watch the whole thing? The part where the chap at the end explains the purpose of the video? It's not supposed to make people think it's real.
- Waterluvian 9y agoI don't want to search for it but wasn't there high quality video of a home made drone dropping an IED on a tank commander, instantly killing him? It's very chilling that this new vector of attack is very much here for everyone to utilize.
- kbart 9y agoIn this scenario "IED" is a keyword. Drone is trivial compared to making a small IED capable of killing a person or damaging military equipment without blowing yourself up first. If one can do that, he's dangerous with or without drones anyway.
- Waterluvian 9y agoI never would have guessed that. I always thought that explosives are easy with kitchen sink supplies.
- nradov 9y agoNon-nuclear EMP weapons are not viable defenses. They are short ranged, very expensive, single use, and require detonating powerful conventional explosives. The only effective defenses today are the same as against regular missiles: guns, missiles, decoys, ECM, and blinding lasers. In a few years high-powered lasers might become viable.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- robkop 9y agoEver since I saw that video I've been wondering how effective it would be to use essentially an upgraded fire suppression system to take on the drones. Essentially instead of spraying water out of the sprinklers, spray paint or other liquids that would block the vision of the drones. I think that would be a lot cheaper and harder to build defences for than an EMP. (Just realised that you could also spray a opaque gas which would also block vision and might make less of a mess to clean up).
- IntronExon 9y agoHow about spraying a rapidly hardening foam or stringy polymer? Kill the damned thing.
- robkop 9y agoI would worry about spraying rapidly hardening foam in a room filled with people (not sure if you can breath under it, nevermind how you get people out). String polymer sounds like it could work, my only concern would be if you could design prop guards for the drones such that they filter the air (very coarsely) and don't allow any objects to touch the props.
- IntronExon 9y agoIn the former case, granted. In the latter, you could also use powdered magnets, some form of self-adhering powder, etc. the basic idea of attacking rotors should be hard to defend against.
- bsder 9y agoPulsejets don't need rotors. https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav-by-any-other-name-would-still-be-a-cruise-missile/ https://hackaday.com/2011/09/05/engine-hacks-a-pulse-jet-uav...
- IntronExon 9y ago
- jcims 9y agoIf you don't mind getting yourself on a list, go to youtube and search for '2g ETN' (also PETN, APAN, HMTD, MEKP, etc). These are all home gamers, imagine military grade stuff...geesh.
- WillReplyfFood 9y agoAh, the good old get yourself out of direct-customer-support no-fly list. If you love your family, having some blow up potential in the eyes of the fbi or cia, gains you some quality time.
- cwkoss 9y ago'2g ETN' pulled up a bunch of stuff about 2G cellular networks for me. Found a youtube video. ETN stands for Erythritol tetranitrate, an explosive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug3qce3Sae4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug3qce3Sae4 Yikes...
- cwkoss 9y agoDouble yikes, the precursors are not hard to find at all. The only comfort I can find is that the process is probably just complicated enough that 50% of the idiots who try to make it will probably maim themselves instead of succeeding.
- colemannugent 9y agoI'm sure someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think countering EMPs wouldn't be that difficult of a task. Commercial electronics designers have been designing around EMI for decades now. Is it that hard to imagine that actors would put in the effort to shield their devices? A Faraday cage around the electronics would go a long way towards eliminating the effects of an EMP. Even if you couldn't stop the EMP from knocking systems out, you could design them to come back online very quickly, making the EMP a rather expensive temporary measure. For home-made drones it might be effective, but those drones are cheap, and the attackers could always launch more. I just don't see EMPs as posing a real threat to any military. Am I off in my estimation?
- CamperBob2 9y agoNo, you're not wrong at all. Most equipment that's designed to hold up under CE immunity testing is not going to be affected by EMP from any source short of a nuke.
- analognoise 9y agoI'm not sure where you're getting this info, but it is wicked wrong. Ever seen a carrier's radar hit a drone? And that's nothing compared to NEMP waveforms.
- CamperBob2 9y agoThat's not a traditional "EMP" attack, it's a brute-force assault with massive, expensive, and power-hungry microwave transmitting equipment that is never going to be feasible to deploy against drones. It will be effective for maybe 50-100 yards. I can afford more drones than you can afford Aegis platforms.
- ralfd 9y agoFun Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XbLz0L6UdI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XbLz0L6UdI (Change it to english subtitles)
- EGreg 9y agoThat video is very similar to the real life airdrop: https://youtu.be/CGAk5gRD-t0 https://youtu.be/CGAk5gRD-t0
- Bromskloss 9y agoTime to build that EMP-surviving car I've been dreaming of – one that can run even with all its electronics (except sparks) burnt out, falling back on mechanical timing and such!
- pryelluw 9y agoBuy an old VW Bettle.
- punchclockhero 9y ago>build an EMP-surviving car No need to do that, just get an old enough car/truck that can be started with a crank.
- King-Aaron 9y agoDon't need a crank, just a manual gearbox and knowing how to roll-start
- King-Aaron 9y ago1975 Datsun 180B. I had the relay box catch on fire (in the pouring rain!) once. Put the fire out, pulled all the twisted charred copper off itself as not to short out, found another battery and bam! Off she drove again. If I hadn't stopped immediately as the fire started, the car would have happily kept running - it only needed the relays for the starter motor. Everything else runs from the points/distributor/alternator. If you had an old diesel, it'd be even better. Those literally have no electronic components necessary for the engine to run - mechanical fuel pump, glow plugs. They can basically run underwater as long as it's got fresh air coming in.
- lost_my_pwd 9y agoWhich reminds me of Runaway (1984): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088024/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088024/
- Raphmedia 9y agoGood luck detonating an EMP in the middle of Manhattan without crippling your economy...
- Overtonwindow 9y agoRelated: "Kill Decision" by Daniel Suarez. Talked about this exact thing. What happens when drones become so cheap and able to be armed, that a swarm of drones could come out of nowhere, commit a crime, and no one would have a clue where they came form.
- woolvalley 9y agoYou can locate radio signal sources fairly accurately. You could get around that with the cell phone network although, which is partly why many countries have stringent ID requirements behind them. You can also get around that with some sort of hardwired control laptop that you leave somewhere, but that has a SPOF issue like the cell networks do. You can also get around that with self programmed drones, but they are more limited in adaptability.
- noir_lord 9y ago> You can also get around that with self programmed drones, but they are more limited in adaptability. For now (perhaps). My android phone for 300 quid has more computing power than my fast desktop had 20 years ago in about one hundredth the power budget with a powerful high speed network connection.
- 0xCMP 9y agoAnd which is becoming easier to create P2P distributed systems that could mesh together over prepaid and falsely registered connections. Obviously this would require serious sophistication (not just anyone could string it together), but I think that anyone capable of being the first to build a serious threat with any of this technology will likely have funding and serious skills on tap.
- icebraining 9y agomany countries have stringent ID requirements behind them. I wonder how many of those allow roaming using SIMs from countries that have no such requirements. All of that seems so much like security theater.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- duncan_bayne 9y agoGlobally, that might not be a bad thing. The 20th Century has many examples of genocide and mass murder committed by armed State- or State-backed actors against their own population. Democratizing a means of preventing that might help prevent similar atrocities in the 21st Century. A second amendment for the 3D printed drone age, if you will.
- ataturk 9y agoThe 2nd Amendment is a right to bear whatever arms are current at the time, not just guns you know. Same as the 1st Amendment covers Internet speech.
- ricardobeat 9y agoUnpassable paywall, web search link doesn’t skip it, mobile. Can we for the love of god stop posting or at least flag these?
- dang 9y agoPlease see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 and don't post comments like this. Users often post workaround URLs in these threads, but even if they don't, in most cases there are standard ways of reading the articles that work fine.
- ricardobeat 9y agoSorry to disappoint you, but they don't work fine. I've been saying this for months. If you browse HN using a mobile device it is not easy to work around a paywall. Publishers are constantly making it more difficult, coming from google search doesn't give you a free pass anymore. I can't "focus on the content" if there is no way to access it. Notice how the top voted comment in the thread you posted is asking for the same (a paywall tag). Maybe you could try going mobile-only for a few weeks to understand the pain?
- Sniffnoy 9y agoPrivate browsing is working fine for me.
- duskwuff 9y agoAdd "tinypass.com" to your ad blocker.
- dredmorbius 9y agoTry the Internet Archive or https://archive.is https://archive.is
- mrfusion 9y agoWhen my university wanted to keep sea gulls away from the patio they strung fishing line all over.
- duckwheat 9y agoThat is a really good idea. My first thought was basically start with the tree, a drone's natural enemy, and amplify the stuff that makes it so dangerous to a drone - tiny sticks that are hard to see. Fishing line would pretty much accomplish that.
- JackFr 9y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon
- King-Aaron 9y agoI was thinking along these lines, but with more of a BallonFest '89 flavour to it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloonfest_%2786 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloonfest_%2786
- ridgeguy 9y agoKevlar thread. Less frequent replacement needed.
- Animats 9y agoMilitary bases in hostile territory may have to be surrounded and covered over by chain-link fence material on telephone poles.
- jlg23 9y agoThis does not help against attacks that are already being done[1]: Attach grenade to drive, fly over target, release grenade. [1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/news/a27511/russia-drone-thermite-grenade-ukraine-ammo/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/news/a2751...
- hamitron 9y agoCouldn't we just use bird netting around our military bases?
- ceejayoz 9y agoSure, but then a certain percentage of drone swarms will come with razor blades on them.
- aaron695 9y agoFor a more technical article with more pics - https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/01/12/the_poor_mans_airforce/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/01/12/the_poor_man... Watch "Knights of the Departments" for footage from The Islamic State. http://jihadology.net/2017/01/24/new-video-message-from-the-islamic-state-knights-of-the-departments-wilayat-ninawa/ http://jihadology.net/2017/01/24/new-video-message-from-the-... I think the Russian attack does seem state sponsored. 10 + 3 at once, they could not land so no practice runs and thousand+ $ each, claimed 100km range..... Seems to organised. And don't read "Kill Decision" for this topic, it misses the mark totally with drones. Unlike Daemon and FreedomTM which were really great books to read by the same author. Also jump on the Telegram rooms for the markets in Syria for the latest for sale. Interesting stuff. Even side things like they are using commercial grade golfing range finders for something.... Mortar attacks?
- remind_me_again 9y agoThat attack was way too sophisticated beyond the capability of any home-made effort. The attackers tried to cover it behind "home-made" veil. At any rate it threatens any conventional army.
- SiempreViernes 9y agoYes, it threatens them in the same way artillery does.
- saas_co_de 9y agoThe article is somewhat misleading because the Russians claim that the technology was provided by a state actor and that it was only made to look primitive in order to provide deniability. ---- On Tuesday, the Russian Defence Ministry appeared to accuse the US of being involved in the latest attack, claiming that an American Poseidon intelligence aircraft patrolling over the base during the attack was a “strange coincidence”. It also said in an earlier post that the perpetrators needed technology from “countries with high-technological capabilities” and the drones’ explosive devices had “foreign detonating fuses”. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-military-bases-drones-syria-armed-attacks-tartus-uavs-latakia-a8151066.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-m...
- remind_me_again 9y agoExactly.
- RachelF 9y agoReminded me of this https://youtu.be/SNPJMk2fgJU https://youtu.be/SNPJMk2fgJU I don't think it is real, but it shows the future.
- tobyhinloopen 9y agoWhy do you think it is fake? It seems like something you could easily build
- icebraining 9y agoSeems like a bad 3D render to me.
- sizzle 9y agoEerily similar to Black Mirror season 3 episode 6 "Hated in the Nation"
- neonate 9y agohttp://archive.is/5686t http://archive.is/5686t
- nradov 9y agoThe War Zone had a good article about the recent attacks that ISIS executed using cheap commercial drones. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7155/isis-drone-dropping-bomblet-on-abrams-tank-is-a-sign-of-whats-to-come http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7155/isis-drone-droppin... The US Army has had to react by rebuilding short-range air defense capabilities. They used to be able to depend on the US Air Force to protect ground forces from aerial attack but now those days are gone. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17747/us-army-rushes-to-add-hundreds-of-stinger-missile-teams-as-threat-of-small-drones-evolves http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17747/us-army-rushes-to...
- craftyguy 9y agoThey literally need a bunch of bird hunters with shotguns lurking about.
- nradov 9y agoShotguns don't have enough range. Modern drones move too fast and are hard to spot.
- simonh 9y agoThe EM gun looks like a great solution - portable, similar range to a firearm and you don't have to worry about hitting the target with a projectile. It's still a guy doing that who's not carrying a gun though. The main problem is detection and tracking. Even if you can counter the drones, the distraction of keeping an eye out for them and communicating back to your anti-drone guy is something you just don't want to have to deal with in close combat. Bear in mind these things can pop up and execute an attack in just a minute or two, possibly in swarms. Ideally you want an automated solution so your door kickers can focus on the job at hand.
- rmetzler 9y agoI wonder what will happen when lasers as drone defense system becomes a reality. I guess terrorists will use them against US drones, and military and commercial aircrafts.
- alex_duf 9y agoI can imagine the effects of false positive on birds will be interesting to watch
- dsq 9y agoThe bird population is toast. So are all cetaceans when weaponized drones become common in the oceans.
- sangnoir 9y agoConsidering that flapping-wing ornithopter drones exist[1], zapping everything that flies would be the safest bet. 1. https://youtu.be/w6VLzKACnS8?t=37s https://youtu.be/w6VLzKACnS8?t=37s
- happycube 9y agoI've always figured the Chinese, if they went to a total war footing, would be able to shift their supply/production chains to mass produce effective swarms of drones.
- goldenkey 9y agoThe thing is, defending against small drones is pretty cheap. Air-to-air missiles aren't needed. A simple 50 cal rifle will probably destroy these planes with 1 or 2 shots.
- adrianN 9y agoThose things are small and pretty fast though, so you'd need good tracking equipment to effectively defend against a swarm.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- azernik 9y agoNot even 50 cal, a regular old assault rifle will do. The problem is hitting the damn things. They're small, can turn on a dime, don't reflect radar very well, and run cold enough to give IR tracking some issues. Army manuals like [1] typically call for a coordinated fire of small arms across a large volume of airspace to hit a drone, but advise commanders that hit probabilities are low. Their most urgent advice is to keep spotters looking for enemy drones, and to use concealment and camouflage as much as possible to avoid enemy drone surveillance. [1] https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp3-01-8.pdf https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp3-01-8.pdf, search for "UAS" (Unmanned Aerial System)
- gaius 9y agoNot even 50 cal, a regular old assault rifle will do. Could you hit a moving drone with a rifle? Even when I shot competitively at 500m, I probably couldn't. You can hit clay pigeons with a shotgun but a drone can easily manoeuvre beyond range.
- Zardoz84 9y agoWhat I think, is why no body weaponized aircraft model before. Since 80's/90's small aircraft models had enough capacity to carry grenades and small explosives. Also, I'm impressed that a cheap drone can use optical navigation. The last time that someone talked about it, was about it's usage on Tomahawk cruise missiles, since 80's, as a tech miracle of electronics.
- zaphod4prez 9y ago...aircraft have been weaponized for a longgg time. Kamikaze pilots! That's been the problem, though. They cant be self-guided, you have to lose a human life in order to use them. And that's where rockets came from, the Germans started trying to figure out how to weaponize flight without losing soldiers (see V2 rockets). That's why autonomous control is so scary, it's the first time that this sort of thing is actually realistically hitting the point of being cost-effective, and especially scary when we're talking about it become cost-effective for really small forces to use. (I feel awful using a term like "cost-effective" when talking about human life, but that's the way military-types think about these things. Yuck.)
- CardenB 9y agoSeems like the parent comment is referring to model aircraft, which would be radio controlled passengerless fast aircraft.
- erikb 9y agoI feel the headline is too attention-seeking. It is natural that if one side starts to develop a new technology and employs it successfully, that the other parties will follow as well. This changes the landscape, sure. But it's not threatening. That's the normal process of development. Every army is better of if they can use machines to do their attacks for them. At least between both armies this should also decrease the overall casualties I hope. I'm not so naive to assume that this would decrease civilian casualties, though.
- mattmanser 9y agoReduces soldier casualties, increase civilian ones. It's pretty disgusting when you actually thinks about it. I don't want bad newspaper headlines about soldier deaths, so I'll use a robot that kills a bunch of civilians as collateral.
- nextlevelwizard 9y agoAsymmetric is the keyword in the article. Unless US military comes up with relieable and cheap solution they will eventually starve themselves as the parts to make attack drones gets cheaper and cheaper. Like the stinger missiles in the article, they cost almost $200k while a drone costs $2k + whatever they are dropping. Obviously US has money to spend, but for how long? There are plenty of examples of asymmetric warfare like what happened to US in Vietnam or what happened to Russians in Finland.
- megaman22 9y agoDrones are still a lot more expensive than a 60 or 80mm mortar tube, though. I haven't seen many drones that could put an equivalent payload on target, and unless batteries get wildly better, I don't see much advantage in range for small, home-brew drones.
- arca_vorago 9y agoI've heard from some of my fellow Marines they were starting to get back into camouflaged outposts and such after mostly forgetting those skills in the (early) GWOT days. There is nothing new under the sun.
- ataturk 9y agoIt's The Economist, which is basically a PR publication for the MIC, so take that into account. The next generation of drones won't be homemade. It's too simple of a problem to arm small drones with small arms, use for grenade or explosives delivery, electronic warfare, you name it. The droid armies depicted in Star Wars aren't far from the truth--you just need huge masses of them to overwhelm your opponent.