19 ms·

Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

433 points by mcone 9y ago

microcolonel 9y ago
Next China will outlaw Linux for having an IPSec implementation in it, lol. What a sad country that believes liberty comes after wealth, and in relative terms may never have either.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  GFW managed to screw IPSec ages ago. It is also worth pointing out that the GFW itself is built on top of Linux systems.
janandonly 9y ago
What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world. For "security" reasons or "fight agains terrorism", while it's really a fight between those in power and those who want power :-( The need for IPFS, webRTC and other non-centralized protocols becomes more pressing every day, to defend everyone who is stuck in between.
- janandonly 9y ago
  It should be noted that using a non-china based iTunes account still allows you to install vpn apps and run the app inside Chinese borders... But The Great Firewall could and sometimes does already block all VPN traffic so it would not be any use.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    If the VPN actually works the app might still be useful. It is a game of cat and mouse between the government and the VPN providers.
- nannal 9y ago
  I'm a massive fan of decentralization and it seems that bittorrent has shown that it is resilient against oppression, while the magnet link hosting sites are regularly taken down, the protocol its self has shown that it can continue to thrive. In this way it shows that decentralized networks are the way to circumvent oppressive people. The on-going movement towards decentralisation is something to celebrate as is the transformation of users, slowly becoming peers.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Looks like I won't be owning any Apple products in 5 years then.
  - nobodyshere 9y ago
    But they still have the built-in VPN client in iOS, don't they? As long as they don't block this particular feature in China, I don't see that as a big reason for panic.
    - avcdsuia 9y ago
      PPTP and L2TP are blocked, we mainly use Shadowsocks. And what Apple did is removing apps that provide Shadowsocks local client. e.g. Surge, Shadowrocket, Potatso‏...
- aiyodev 9y ago
  Governments can outlaw those too. We need a p2p internet before it's too late. It doesn't have to be the fastest or the best. It just has to work well enough to bootstrap free access to information whenever the government tries to snuff it out. In Cuba they use thumb drives but we can do better.
  - yarg 9y ago
    There's a fundamental limit to what is blockable. Even if all strong cryptography is prohibited and all that can legally be utilised is a backdoored version, a steganographic option can be encorporated in a way that is mathematically undetectable - albeit at rather low bit rates relative to the absolute rate of the stream. The problem for censors is that there is not such thing as optimal compression for a given stream, since the optimality of a given compression codec is a probabilistic function of all data streams that could feasibly be compressed with the given codec. What do I mean by this? Inoptimality is fundamentally immeasurable (even when a more optimal version is feasibly calculable, it may be inefficient to utilise it due to the increased complexity involved in encoding or decoding - and the possible reasons behind any given encoding choice are indistinguisable from each other), so a sliver of a data stream could potentially be utilised to package encrypted data in a manner that is fundamentally indistinguishable from encoding inoptimalities. In a world where a huge amount of out data is ultra-high bandwidth multimedia content couple with personal super-computers, crytographically indistinguisable steganographic communication channels of a more than useful bandwidth are well within the realms of feasibility.
    - acdha 9y ago
      That's technically true but largely irrelevant because it ignores the hard problem: if you're a covert agent supported by a major power, sure, you may have the opsec training and resources needed for that to be relevant but in most cases the question is not crypto magic but how it handles discovery, trust, and individual compromises. You can have perfect steganography but as soon as a government informant says they got contraband data from you people are going to jail or worse. Similarly, all of the plausible deniability in the world won't help if they compromise your system and record you accessing that data. Among other things, this kills widespread underground media dissemination because as the number of people increases the odds approach certainty that state actors will learn how to access it, and the risk to users increases constantly – how well do you really know the person who hooked you up with an invite code? Is the P2P node you're connecting to anything other than a honeypot? The hottie you hooked up with last night – really into you or just installing malware on your computers and mapping out your social network? (Lest you think that's a stretch, consider e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29743857 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29743857 and ask whether the Chinese government is more or less concerned with activists)
- aluhut 9y ago
  Well maybe you shouldn't use a locked system then. There are enough and better alternatives and always have been. It's not like this is a surprise at all. People have warned about this for years but the fan base and the cool design were stronger. I'm pretty sure there will be no uprising in the western Apple community about that at all.
- geokon 9y ago
  Just on a positive note - HTTPS has done wonders BC it destroys any granularity in censorship. For instance BC English Wikipedia isn't blocked you are able to look up any topic and authorities have no way of knowing which topic you've looked up. They could block all of Wikipedia ofcourse, but it'd be overly draconian, hard to justify and people would be upset (though itll happen eventually. They're working on a wikipedia clone right now)
  - doguozkan 9y ago
    Wikipedia (also apparently expressvpn.com) is already blocked in Turkey, and I am indeed very upset about it, but there's nothing I can do about it and I think it'd be the same with the Chinese. Such oppressive governments really won't mind denying their citizens access to the single greatest source of information for their citizens if it plays into their hand.
    - dis-sys 9y ago
      could you please stop representing 1.4B Chinese? if the government is so bad, why there is no systematic resistance given the fact that Chinese people had a long history of fighting the repressive regimes?
      - aluhut 9y ago
        Fear of the Government that is even in your pocket?! As someone who grew up in the East Block, reading such naive comments as yours leaves me divided. It's good on one hand that you've never came even close to an oppressive government so not even your imagination allows you to grok. On the other hand facing the development in the world, it's quite concerning.
        dis-sys 9y ago
        > As someone who grew up in the East Block so you grew up in the old communist eastern bloc, and you want to blindly compare what you suffered back then to what is happening in China now? I didn't grew up in communism, I grew up after the 1978 reform in China. My entire extended family work for the private sector with my closest family members running their own successful private businesses. Did you guys have that in the eastern bloc (not east block)? I got Internet connection back in the early 90s and I have been openly posting comments on Chinese forums criticising some of CCP's policies for the last 20 years. They didn't give a sh!t about it and I never got myself into any trouble. Can you guys do that back in the eastern bloc days? Starting from my middle school, they have been teaching me that the market economy is the only viable solution, they encourage the best students to study in western countries and offered numerous benefits for that, e.g. a long list of tax benefits if you study in the west and go back to China later. Did your eastern bloc "motherland" encourage you to do that? The eastern bloc failed for an obvious reason: communism. Chinese killed that rubbish back in 1978. Learn something.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  As corps/IC agencies/.mil's around the world tighten the nooses around the population, it will only empower people to engage in similar behaviors. Who's to say one can't technically compromise and take advantage of AmaGoogAppBookWeiTenUbtakte infrastructure and use it for any ends, in similar ways corps/IC's agencies/.mil's do for their ends? After all its still hardware and software with flaws like anything else.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  there isn't going to be a technical solution to the problem of terrible world governments, the only real solution is going to be to change the governments.
  - jmiserez 9y ago
    In democratic countries, at least you have that possibility. Elsewhere it might not be possible at all. Nationwide censorship and surveillance are probably pretty effective technical “solutions” for preventing change.
  - jMyles 9y ago
    Why are they different things? Isn't, on some very fundamental level, the act of changing the governments a "technical solution"?
- the8472 9y ago
  The UK is already rolling out more and more censorship infrastructure for example. All ISPs have porn-filters enabled by default (which you can opt-out) and additional block lists that you have to circumvent through technical means (e.g. wikipedia was blocked due to the Scorpion's virgin killer album cover). Now they also want to expand those filters to cover "extremism".
  - mark_l_watson 9y ago
    +1 the USA and UK are definitely on the path of governmental control of content/privacy on the Internet. A bit off topic: I am in the USA and it surprises be constantly how most of my friends and family buy into American exceptionalism. Mostly, they don't travel much to foreign countries so they don't realize that the USA is one of MANY great places to live. The world for the most part is an awesome place but the news media convinces people otherwise. Re: China: even though China has problems with internal ethnic violence (source: I took an online class in English covering history, economics, and politics taught by three professors in China) my impression of people in China when I was there is that they are generally happy with their society. It is not my place to tell other people what form of government they should have.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
  > What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world. China? This has been happening in the US and Europe for years. Look how heavily censored all social media is now.
  - fghtr 9y ago
    I understand that we all at HN know about the media censorship, but when you are trying to convince someone who disagrees, some evidence would be very useful.
    - madez 9y ago
      Depending where you live, there are likely laws prohibiting communication in public about sexuality (think graphically explicit pictures where accessible to children, think non-standard sexual expression), politics (think inciting hate against groups of humans and calls to kill them), culture (think sharing a song you really like with your peers), and many more. You might say that these restrictions and censorship is okay because you agree with the given reason. But exactly like that, people in china might agree to the reasons their government is giving them for their censorship. Who is right?
adamnemecek 9y ago
Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you.
- chroem- 9y ago
  This is arguably worse than if they had done nothing at all to supposedly protect user privacy. Now it's clear that Apple was just playing the crowd to win sales. Why should we even believe that they aren't covertly cooperating with the FBI?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pdimitar 9y ago
    That's hardly an Apple-specific issue though. I'd argue we shouldn't trust any corporation -- like Google, Amazon, Facebook as well -- and assume they are in bed with the agencies from the get go.
humanrebar 9y ago
At what point does Apple itself bear some responsibility for censoring people? EDIT: Would downvoters please explain their objection to the question? "Apple isn't to blame" and some thoughtful elaboration would be better than just downvoting.
- melling 9y ago
  You either follow local laws or you leave. How did it work out for Google? Google took a stand and now they’re going back.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    How did that work out for IBM? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
  - fulafel 9y ago
    "I was just following orders..."
    - threeseed 9y ago
      Not appropriate. Apple is not directly killing people. And in this case they are simply following the law.
      - Drakim 9y ago
        What if killing people is "following the law"? It's happened a few times in history. Or if that is too big a pill to swallow, what if collecting runaways is "following the law", when they are to be executed? What about monitoring communication for death penalty offenses? (speaking against the state)
        threeseed 9y ago
        Apple runs an App Store. If they are ever in the situation where they are going to be responsible for killing millions of innocent people then yes let's make sure the stop doing that instead of blindly following the law. Until then how about we stop with the Nazi references.
maxxxxx 9y ago
That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your government. You can't keep your cake and eat it too.
  - marak830 9y ago
    Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps just a little frustration and some constructive argument may lead someone to a better idea of how to handle/fox/or seeup with something. God's know I don't have an answer, but it does worry me.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      In many places where companies are incorporated, that is likely an illegal decision to make for your company. Unless you can argue that the loss of sales in that jurisdiction will be less than the loss in sales abroad (from loss of consumer trust), you probably can't do it. In addition, they likely have ongoing procurement contracts with some companies in China which they would need to continue honouring. In principle I agree with you, but unless this is a founding policy of your company, your shareholders have every right to object.
libeclipse 9y ago
What a despicable joke of a country. And shame on Apple for aiding them while they made such a massive deal of user rights in the US.
- oneplane 9y ago
  Different countries, different laws... what did you expect?
  - aluhut 9y ago
    Balls? Integrity?
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Respect of inalienable rights.
- fiblye 9y ago
  In America, they're still free to openly complain about American policies. Try that in China and you'll be gone before the week is over and a state-sponsored company will take your place
  - vetinari 9y ago
    > In America, they're still free to openly complain about American policies. You can complain only about those, that are inconsequential, or won't change anyway. Otherwise you could be labeled with miscellaneous labels and maybe also beaten at someplaces.
  - stephengillie 9y ago
    Complaining is the opiate of the masses.
saurik 9y ago
They also require a paid developer subscription to get access to the Network Extensions capability (needed to build a VPN protocol extension) in order to make sure people who develop these apps can't just provide IPA files for normal users in China to "sideload" using tools such as my Cydia Impactor.
- izacus 9y ago
  So they go out of their way to prevent users to avoid censorship by themselves on their devices?
oneplane 9y ago
It's not very surprising considering that it's the local law and everyone will have to follow it or get out... It isn't going to actually prevent anyone from tunneling past the great firewall of course, so it's more like a gesture than an actual effective decision from the government.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
saurik 9y ago
They also require a paid developer subscription to get access to the Network Extensions capability (needed to build a VPN protocol extension) in order to make sure people who develop these apps can't just provide IPA files for normal users in China to "sideload" using tools such as my Cydia Impactor.
adamnemecek 9y ago
Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you. You're a coward.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > You're a coward. No, he's a Chief Executive. If the Chief Executive can make more money by saying Apple is going to bat for gay people (in America, so bold! so brave! /s) or for your privacy, then the Chief is going to say it. You're at fault for taking them on their word. What you needed was a contract, not an open letter.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    I know how these things work note the almost.
    - wruza 9y ago
      I was ready to point that "coward" also should be prefixed with "almost" then, but then I read that link: >We have great respect for the professionals at the FBI, and we believe their intentions are good. Up to this point, we have done everything that is both within our power and within the law to help them. But now the U.S. government has asked us for something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create. They have asked us to build a backdoor to the iPhone. [emphasis mine] I think you read what you wanted to read, not what was written. What exactly did you almost believe? There is no "we'll fight to death against all laws and leave markets on failure". There is respect to the agency and "please, no" to non-lawful demands. Maximizing this the other way to "I didn't believe anyway" is just a denial. They have mutually benefical intents, but they ain't no force against a man with a law in one hand and loaded gun in the other. They live in reality. If we only stopped turn claims upside down, the world already would be much better place despite local goverment vectors.
- hoorayimhelping 9y ago
  >You're a coward. While you're calling another man a coward for not living your values, I'm wondering what you've done to stand up against China that's so fucking brave.
Crontab 9y ago
This is awful, but in England and America, I foresee similar policies will come - in the name of law, safety, and security.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Neither America nor the U.K. have national firewalls in place.
  - fredley 9y ago
    Yet. Theresa May would build one right away if she could (and the first steps are being taken)
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      If she could. But they would need to build those first before considering the next step of blocking VPNs. See austrailia at risk also. I doubt it would ever happen in America, however.
  - izacus 9y ago
    And yet Apple already polices you for any kind of content you might deem offensive / objectionable or not "family friendly" enough on your iOS device.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Yes. But Apple is a private company, that is there prerogative.
      - the8472 9y ago
        The private company argument has limits. Common carrier status for one. At least in the EU there also are exemptions for repairing and interoperability. In my opinion repairability should extend to the ability for the owner of a device to side-load any software. If apple wants to police their own app-store, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to exclude installation through other means. If they had not complete control over the ecosystem then they would not be in the situation where they can and have to play deputy sheriff for the government.
skybrian 9y ago
They probably had to do it to keep the official store available in China, but this is why supporting side-loading of apps like Android does would be a good idea.
pipio21 9y ago
Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.
  - leppr 9y ago
    It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception for China ?
    - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they want out of their store.
      - briandear 9y ago
        Why is this downvoted? It’s a factual statement. Freedoms of speech (in the U.S.) is that Congress shall make no law.. A radio station that refuses to play my song or let me talk isn’t violating my freedom of speech. Facebook censoring “hate speech” is not violating freedom of speech. Hate speech is protected speech under the U.S. constitution. (Before anyone brings up Schenck v. United States, that case ruled that speech that present imminent danger (yelling fire in a crowded theater) was not protected, but hate speech doesn’t generally reach a level of immediate danger. So if we are to criticize Apple for curating their store, we must criticize Facebook for curating their platform. We must also crisis Google for their curation of advertising content as well. Because unless hate speech says “kill <some group> today at 5pm at the local market,” it’s broadly protected under the U.S. constitution. What that means that practically every single company in the U.S. is guilty of “violating free speech” – IF they were the government, but they are not and thus aren’t violating anyone’s right to free speech.
mauvehaus 9y ago
This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision. I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere) was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government, or that I really believe that corporations have a responsibility to protect basic human rights (though it would be nice if they did). Still, it'd be nice if corporations didn't try to have it both ways and maintain an image as a courageous force for good when it was convenient while washing their hands of responsibility for any actual action when it became difficult.
- patrickaljord 9y ago
  Aren't they forced to follow Chinese laws when doing business there? Not saying what they did is moral but it seems the moral question here is whether they be doing business in China, not whether they should be following the laws while doing business their because they don't really have a choice once they decide to do business there. Google for example doesn't do business there so they don't have to respect censorship laws.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions. Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves. Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      Could Apple really ever decide to not do any business in China - could they extract their phone/computer business without affecting their manufacturing business? Without access to Shenzhen and Foxconn, it seems like it would be a literal corporate suicide.
retox 9y ago
Profits before people, the Apple motto.
joseph4521 9y ago
Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.
- foepys 9y ago
  Apple regularly boast about how they are a privacy focused company and just want the best for their consumers by enforcing tight restrictions on all apps. You have no other possibility to install apps on an Apple device but the App Store. Now they effectively block privacy-focused tools in a country that is known to jail everyone that speaks against authorities. That doesn't line up with their rhetoric and people see the hypocrisy.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law. I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this. I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even if it is legally mandatory. And, while understandable, I'm not sure (still chewing it over) it's a valid excuse to say that we were just complying with the law.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    > For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, While FOXCONN is not slavery, outsourcing work to countries where you can pay incredibly poor people unethically low wages to create expensive products is hardly a good indicator that a company will stand up to laws that don't affect their bottom line.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Does Foxconn pay unethically low wages? The base pay for 40h/week is ~$400/month. In my Western European country, minimum wage is ~$660/month. The difference doesn't seem that much.
imron 9y ago
Alternative title: Apple complies with law in countries where it operates.
- sandstrom 9y ago
  Saying that that it complies with the local laws is a weak argument. This is about moral and ethics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_prewar_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_pre...
  - differentView 9y ago
    The alternative is to stop doing business in China, is that what you want Apple to do?
    - sandstrom 9y ago
      I'm saying that this is a weak argument: Apple complies with law in countries where it operates. Instead one should value the act itself: Is it right or wrong to aid in restricting ~1b people's access to knowledge and information about their government's past deeds[1], current affairs[2], corruption[3], etc. I think it's wrong, other may think it's right. But saying they're following local laws is similar to saying that someone is just respecting German WW2-laws on Jews or apartheid in South Africa. --- [1] Tiananmen Square [2] Food safety (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal) [3] High-official corruption (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-web-access-to-new-york-times.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-we...)
coldcode 9y ago
You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. The market is too large to leave. If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox.
- bilbo0s 9y ago
  I suppose there are the questions of law and fiduciary duties. If it's the law, it's the law. In China, it's the law to remove VPN apps. I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access. It's just the law, it's not really Facebook and Google trying to screw me. All that said, I think what most posters are advocating is maybe for Apple to just leave China. And, of course, that's where the other shoe drops... with the question of fiduciary duties. So yeah... I see your point... because of the legal issues involved, privacy and access can be tough problems. Not just in China or the US, but elsewhere in the world as well. *EDITS for grammar
  - virtuabhi 9y ago
    "I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access." No, in US the directive comes from court and even then the companies can deny the information if it is encrypted (e.g. like Apple did in San Bernardino). I also do not understand the nonsensical argument everyday that if US does small x then it allows other countries to do big X along with big Y. What kind of logic is this?
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      A company cannot legally defy the court in the US. They can only argue against a specific request it and appeal a ruling or an order. As for the San Bernadino case it's not correct. Apple has complied with the court order, they gave the FBI access to the iCloud Account. What they didn't do is to decrypt the phone but they were also not ordered too by the court. If the court would have ordered them to develop a way to decrypt the device and they've lost all appeals they would've complied with that too.
bigtoine123 9y ago
This is horrible, but in England and America, I'm 100% certain that similar policies will be applied - in the name of law, and public security.
- paradite 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796 Deja vu?
bussiere 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I
bussiere 9y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I
drefgert 9y ago
Tech companies must play a long political game and spend their vast fortunes to lobby, to own media and influence policy and control the message. Once they do this the will no longer be in conflict with governments and their policy. Take note in coming years as the tech barons buy up media to control the message. They will of course do this and then the real problem will not be uppity governments but mega tech corporations who semi covertly run the world.
allenleein 9y ago
What would Steve Jobs do?
- drefgert 9y ago
  The same. Disobey the government in china, stop making money.
sipCom19 9y ago
Apple is free to do what it wants, I'm free not to buy their stuff.
- drefgert 9y ago
  If you're going to take an "I'll not support Apple cause it complies with Chinese law" position, the ill respect your stance if you stop consuming all Chinese made products. Unless of course you're position is a deeply selective one.
pmarreck 9y ago
Perhaps some free-speech provision should be part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
- k-mcgrady 9y ago
  Article 19 protects free expression.
  - pmarreck 9y ago
    so they just blithely ignore that, got it
gigatexal 9y ago
I wonder what Orwell would have thought of modern China.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
belltaco 9y ago
But with Windows/Linux its still possible to install apps on you own, unlike the locked down app store.
abecedarius 9y ago
If you build in the ability to censor, you can't disclaim responsibility when a state makes you do it. We'll see the same sort of thing in Russia, the UK, and so on. Apple can still act, if they wish, by not locking down their users. I know that'd be a big step for them.
- skybrian 9y ago
  To be clear, "ability to censor" is basically just having an app store. Companies can decide what they'll include in their store, which means governments can also regulate what they're allowed to sell (or block the app store altogether in that country). That doesn't mean app stores are inherently evil; they still do a lot of good by making sure people can easily find and pay for high-quality apps. As you say, a reasonable alternative would be to allow side loading of apps, so that people can find and load apps distributed via various peer-to-peer ways, without Apple being responsible.
  - abecedarius 9y ago
    Yes, a curated app store is a great option to have. It's been said that the app-store-only model is not basically different because you can still buy an unrestricted competing device. I kind of agree, but that's sort of like saying people in China can still decide to move to another country. The cheaper such options are, the more weight to give such an argument. Most people aren't going to carry two phones around.
  - Darthy 9y ago
    To be clear, what you mean by "having an app store" is "reverting 40 years of established software usage best practice and downgrade to dictatorial way where a central company can control everything". Words have power. "App store" sounds up-beat, friendly and inclusive. But the rules behind what Apple has established that "App store" actually means are anything but.
    - skybrian 9y ago
      Apple didn't invent the app store and weren't many mobile phones before the iPhone (running J2ME or whatever) even more restrictive? Also, Android doesn't restrict side-loading in this way so I disagree that restricting side-loading is an essential feature of an app store as commonly understood.
Tepix 9y ago
You don't need their closed app store. Free workaround: • apply for a free Apple developer account, • compile your own copy of https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser or https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS and • install it on your own iDevice
- gareim 9y ago
  You get 10 days before your app stops working and you have to do it again. It's a real pain in the butt.
  - yoda_sl 9y ago
    Where do you get that from? Creating app with your own dev account can run on your device for more than 10 days... [Update] ok I just checked the limitation of the free dev account, and yes because of certificates it is only valid for 7 days... I was thinking about the regular $$ account.
    - dannysu 9y ago
      When it was first introduced it was longer. Apple then cracked down on that and made the limit more restrictive.
    - j605 9y ago
      It is idiotic that you can't compile and install something on a device you own.
      - valine 9y ago
        I would pay a large premium for an iPhone that came jailbroken.
      - wingerlang 9y ago
        But you can?
nsxwolf 9y ago
Why hasn't iMessage been blocked in China? Does apple run a special compromised version of it there, or has China simply not made banning it a priority yet, or is iMessage simply not as secure as we have been told?
- JulienSchmidt 9y ago
  Most likely Apple cooperates with the respective agencies as requested by Chinese laws. If not yet, they will have to start very soon or iMessage will also be blocked. Are there any signs of Censorship on iMessage so far? Are terms that are known to be blocked on WeChat, QQ etc (e.g. 法轮功 / Falun Gong) still working on iMessage?
secfirstmd 9y ago
Terrible news. So lets start tackling the problem and figuring out ways to help the averave Chinese person evade censorhip without developer accounts and the knowledge to compile...
shpx 9y ago
Stallman was right.
saimiam 9y ago
I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law when it comes to VPN laws of China. I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with South Africa. This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leading governmental policy. If the Chinese government's rule over the Chinese people is so egregious to the world, I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do business in China and also refused to do business with Chinese companies outside China.
- dionian 9y ago
  Their shareholders would flip out, no? Even the Chinese people who don’t support the govt would lament the loss of using the phone.
  - skc 9y ago
    I doubt this very, very much. It's a phone, not a body part.
- differentView 9y ago
  >I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do business in China It's not about Apple being on solid ground with anyone. It's about wether Tim Cook can keep his job if shareholders flip their shit.
w8rbt 9y ago
So much for 'Think Different', huh? https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nelsonmandela.jpg https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nel...
vkou 9y ago
Isn't it wonderful that the iPhone is a walled garden, and with the flick of a switch, an entire category of software cannot be ran on it? The fact that this switch exists is the real tragedy here - not the fact that Apple chose to use it.
samcat116 9y ago
I assume they are still allowing manual VPN configurations right? They are only removing apps that configure it automatically for you. Not downplaying the impact of this, just clarifying.
- yegle 9y ago
  No, there are other apps that implemented other types of VPN using https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension There are many VPN apps that based on ShadowSocks.
mnm1 9y ago
The entire Apple platform is designed to restrict the user and prevent anything that Apple doesn't want to happen from happening. This is Apple's decision only and it's in line with all their other decisions that restrict a user's freedom on their closed, non free platform. If people wanted a platform that would run whatever software they wanted without restrictions, they shouldn't have bought Apple period. That's just dumb to expect a closed, non free platform that censors by default to suddenly do a 180 turn and become free. But hey, it's not like people haven't been saying this for decades now is it? Oh right, people like RMS have but most consumers are too stupid to listen. This is the outcome.
csomar 9y ago
Apple tailors to countries. They made an iOS without facetime for Dubai specifically. It's a good thing, however, that they are fighting for privacy where they can.
onetokeoverthe 9y ago
As much as Trump was/is a clown his point was this. If Apple and other American companies pull out of China, at least we won't be supporting their harvesting of organs from live Falun Gong (yoga) practioners, their eating of dogs boiled alive, and their treating their own citizens like children. There are a lot of sharp, beautiful people in China. They've learned to accept all the dictatorial crap. As Americans, are we going to help these people? How? Those are the questions we should be asking. I for one will make sure my friends in China have access to vpn. And I won't describe the method here, so those commie motherfuckers are less likely to block it!
the_common_man 9y ago
I find all this outrage about Apple not taking a stand highly amusing. Practically every single product used in the western world is made in China. Please report back if you can get rid of all those products at a _personal_ level. For a start, looks like I have throw this laptop away. Not going to happen.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  The mere use of Chinese products is not the problem being discussed.
ComodoHacker 9y ago
Russia is next. They just have passed a law to ban VPNs and anonymous proxies.
Katastrophial 9y ago
Apple is just as evil as Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. There really needs to be an alternative for phones other than Apple and Android.
jonbarker 9y ago
Couldn't you just do this in China? https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-or-ipad https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...
- JulienSchmidt 9y ago
  The problem is that none of the default protocols work in China. Either they are blocked via DPI in combination with techniques like TCP RST injection / null-routing of the destination IPs, or they are known to be insecure, like PPTP (which is why it is removed in iOS 10)
  - jonbarker 9y ago
    I was able to use gmail, skype, etc with some pretty basic vpn knowledge in China.
baozilaile 9y ago
To all in HN: It is a huge market which helping the people in China break the GFW (Great Fire Wall). You can start a startup for that :)
superioritycplx 9y ago
No matter how much a company claims they're for freedom, diversity, and so on to infinity, at the end, it's always about the bottom line for them. ALWAYS.
bobjordan 9y ago
My business has an AWS China account and below is the email I received on Friday. It is definitely a crackdown year, on several fronts even other than the internet. Like this year I was forced to pay a $300 fine because I didn't report to the police station within 24-hrs of re-entry while living in my own leased home. Now, my company is not huge but I've employed +100 people and we pay a lot of taxes, social insurance, provide jobs for local families. They do not give a shit about that you will follow the laws of China to do business here or you will be thrown out. Overall, this year has really chilled my enthusiasm for getting too comfortable with the thought of living here the rest of my working life. In this age with so many elite Chinese being trained and educated abroad, it is really hard to beleive things are going in this directon. I mean, IT Is already hard enough, we need a server in our office that is connected to another server in France, and we need it reliable and without issue. Making this type of stuff even harder on us as a business is really irritating. I really do tell myself every day "if it was easy everybody would be doing it". "Dear Customer, According to the telecom regulations and the requirement of MIIT/MPS and Internet supervision agency, please check up two parts below. • The illegal “over the wall” proxy sites and provide hosting campaign service for illegal “over the wall” proxy sites. • All main domains which don’t have ICP recorded number via MIIT and All websites which have illegal content. We will continuously receive notification from the regulators to close such services or shut down server deployment immediately. In case your will be involved in any consequences of such violation, please stop immediately if you have such illegal services and deployment. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Regards, AWS China (Beijing) Region operated by SINNET"
perfectstorm 9y ago
Doesn't iPhone supports native VPN in Settings ? How are they going to prevent users from using that ? I mean it's not as easy as downloading a dedicated app and logging in but using the Settings app is not much of a work.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dmritard96 9y ago
I always wonder about Hong Kong now that it is under the one country two systems - basically, I wonder if internet censorship will be lessened before HK internet openness disappears.
hungra 9y ago
I love this summary from n-gate.com about this thread "Apple complies with the law. Hackernews experiences cognitive dissonance at the thought that there might be an organization capable of telling Apple what to do. Many thought experiments are performed to try to imagine a world where a corporation might give a shit about human rights. China's secret police show up incognito to explain that anyone who disapproves of Chinese law is probably a Nazi. The rest of the thread is fanfiction about Tim Cook personally exorcising the evil from Beijing."

433 points by mcone 9y ago

Next China will outlaw Linux for having an IPSec implementation in it, lol. What a sad country that believes liberty comes after wealth, and in relative terms may never have either.

dis-sys 9y ago
GFW managed to screw IPSec ages ago. It is also worth pointing out that the GFW itself is built on top of Linux systems.

janandonly 9y ago

What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world. For "security" reasons or "fight agains terrorism", while it's really a fight between those in power and those who want power :-( The need for IPFS, webRTC and other non-centralized protocols becomes more pressing every day, to defend everyone who is stuck in between.

janandonly 9y ago
It should be noted that using a non-china based iTunes account still allows you to install vpn apps and run the app inside Chinese borders... But The Great Firewall could and sometimes does already block all VPN traffic so it would not be any use.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  If the VPN actually works the app might still be useful. It is a game of cat and mouse between the government and the VPN providers.
nannal 9y ago
I'm a massive fan of decentralization and it seems that bittorrent has shown that it is resilient against oppression, while the magnet link hosting sites are regularly taken down, the protocol its self has shown that it can continue to thrive. In this way it shows that decentralized networks are the way to circumvent oppressive people. The on-going movement towards decentralisation is something to celebrate as is the transformation of users, slowly becoming peers.
cjsuk 9y ago
Looks like I won't be owning any Apple products in 5 years then.
- nobodyshere 9y ago
  But they still have the built-in VPN client in iOS, don't they? As long as they don't block this particular feature in China, I don't see that as a big reason for panic.
  - avcdsuia 9y ago
    PPTP and L2TP are blocked, we mainly use Shadowsocks. And what Apple did is removing apps that provide Shadowsocks local client. e.g. Surge, Shadowrocket, Potatso‏...
aiyodev 9y ago
Governments can outlaw those too. We need a p2p internet before it's too late. It doesn't have to be the fastest or the best. It just has to work well enough to bootstrap free access to information whenever the government tries to snuff it out. In Cuba they use thumb drives but we can do better.
- yarg 9y ago
  There's a fundamental limit to what is blockable. Even if all strong cryptography is prohibited and all that can legally be utilised is a backdoored version, a steganographic option can be encorporated in a way that is mathematically undetectable - albeit at rather low bit rates relative to the absolute rate of the stream. The problem for censors is that there is not such thing as optimal compression for a given stream, since the optimality of a given compression codec is a probabilistic function of all data streams that could feasibly be compressed with the given codec. What do I mean by this? Inoptimality is fundamentally immeasurable (even when a more optimal version is feasibly calculable, it may be inefficient to utilise it due to the increased complexity involved in encoding or decoding - and the possible reasons behind any given encoding choice are indistinguisable from each other), so a sliver of a data stream could potentially be utilised to package encrypted data in a manner that is fundamentally indistinguishable from encoding inoptimalities. In a world where a huge amount of out data is ultra-high bandwidth multimedia content couple with personal super-computers, crytographically indistinguisable steganographic communication channels of a more than useful bandwidth are well within the realms of feasibility.
  - acdha 9y ago
    That's technically true but largely irrelevant because it ignores the hard problem: if you're a covert agent supported by a major power, sure, you may have the opsec training and resources needed for that to be relevant but in most cases the question is not crypto magic but how it handles discovery, trust, and individual compromises. You can have perfect steganography but as soon as a government informant says they got contraband data from you people are going to jail or worse. Similarly, all of the plausible deniability in the world won't help if they compromise your system and record you accessing that data. Among other things, this kills widespread underground media dissemination because as the number of people increases the odds approach certainty that state actors will learn how to access it, and the risk to users increases constantly – how well do you really know the person who hooked you up with an invite code? Is the P2P node you're connecting to anything other than a honeypot? The hottie you hooked up with last night – really into you or just installing malware on your computers and mapping out your social network? (Lest you think that's a stretch, consider e.g. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29743857 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29743857 and ask whether the Chinese government is more or less concerned with activists)
aluhut 9y ago
Well maybe you shouldn't use a locked system then. There are enough and better alternatives and always have been. It's not like this is a surprise at all. People have warned about this for years but the fan base and the cool design were stronger. I'm pretty sure there will be no uprising in the western Apple community about that at all.
geokon 9y ago
Just on a positive note - HTTPS has done wonders BC it destroys any granularity in censorship. For instance BC English Wikipedia isn't blocked you are able to look up any topic and authorities have no way of knowing which topic you've looked up. They could block all of Wikipedia ofcourse, but it'd be overly draconian, hard to justify and people would be upset (though itll happen eventually. They're working on a wikipedia clone right now)
- doguozkan 9y ago
  Wikipedia (also apparently expressvpn.com) is already blocked in Turkey, and I am indeed very upset about it, but there's nothing I can do about it and I think it'd be the same with the Chinese. Such oppressive governments really won't mind denying their citizens access to the single greatest source of information for their citizens if it plays into their hand.
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    could you please stop representing 1.4B Chinese? if the government is so bad, why there is no systematic resistance given the fact that Chinese people had a long history of fighting the repressive regimes?
    - aluhut 9y ago
      Fear of the Government that is even in your pocket?! As someone who grew up in the East Block, reading such naive comments as yours leaves me divided. It's good on one hand that you've never came even close to an oppressive government so not even your imagination allows you to grok. On the other hand facing the development in the world, it's quite concerning.
      - dis-sys 9y ago
        > As someone who grew up in the East Block so you grew up in the old communist eastern bloc, and you want to blindly compare what you suffered back then to what is happening in China now? I didn't grew up in communism, I grew up after the 1978 reform in China. My entire extended family work for the private sector with my closest family members running their own successful private businesses. Did you guys have that in the eastern bloc (not east block)? I got Internet connection back in the early 90s and I have been openly posting comments on Chinese forums criticising some of CCP's policies for the last 20 years. They didn't give a sh!t about it and I never got myself into any trouble. Can you guys do that back in the eastern bloc days? Starting from my middle school, they have been teaching me that the market economy is the only viable solution, they encourage the best students to study in western countries and offered numerous benefits for that, e.g. a long list of tax benefits if you study in the west and go back to China later. Did your eastern bloc "motherland" encourage you to do that? The eastern bloc failed for an obvious reason: communism. Chinese killed that rubbish back in 1978. Learn something.
cinquemb 9y ago
As corps/IC agencies/.mil's around the world tighten the nooses around the population, it will only empower people to engage in similar behaviors. Who's to say one can't technically compromise and take advantage of AmaGoogAppBookWeiTenUbtakte infrastructure and use it for any ends, in similar ways corps/IC's agencies/.mil's do for their ends? After all its still hardware and software with flaws like anything else.
QAPereo 9y ago
there isn't going to be a technical solution to the problem of terrible world governments, the only real solution is going to be to change the governments.
- jmiserez 9y ago
  In democratic countries, at least you have that possibility. Elsewhere it might not be possible at all. Nationwide censorship and surveillance are probably pretty effective technical “solutions” for preventing change.
- jMyles 9y ago
  Why are they different things? Isn't, on some very fundamental level, the act of changing the governments a "technical solution"?
the8472 9y ago
The UK is already rolling out more and more censorship infrastructure for example. All ISPs have porn-filters enabled by default (which you can opt-out) and additional block lists that you have to circumvent through technical means (e.g. wikipedia was blocked due to the Scorpion's virgin killer album cover). Now they also want to expand those filters to cover "extremism".
- mark_l_watson 9y ago
  +1 the USA and UK are definitely on the path of governmental control of content/privacy on the Internet. A bit off topic: I am in the USA and it surprises be constantly how most of my friends and family buy into American exceptionalism. Mostly, they don't travel much to foreign countries so they don't realize that the USA is one of MANY great places to live. The world for the most part is an awesome place but the news media convinces people otherwise. Re: China: even though China has problems with internal ethnic violence (source: I took an online class in English covering history, economics, and politics taught by three professors in China) my impression of people in China when I was there is that they are generally happy with their society. It is not my place to tell other people what form of government they should have.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world. China? This has been happening in the US and Europe for years. Look how heavily censored all social media is now.
- fghtr 9y ago
  I understand that we all at HN know about the media censorship, but when you are trying to convince someone who disagrees, some evidence would be very useful.
  - madez 9y ago
    Depending where you live, there are likely laws prohibiting communication in public about sexuality (think graphically explicit pictures where accessible to children, think non-standard sexual expression), politics (think inciting hate against groups of humans and calls to kill them), culture (think sharing a song you really like with your peers), and many more. You might say that these restrictions and censorship is okay because you agree with the given reason. But exactly like that, people in china might agree to the reasons their government is giving them for their censorship. Who is right?

adamnemecek 9y ago

Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you.

chroem- 9y ago
This is arguably worse than if they had done nothing at all to supposedly protect user privacy. Now it's clear that Apple was just playing the crowd to win sales. Why should we even believe that they aren't covertly cooperating with the FBI?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pdimitar 9y ago
  That's hardly an Apple-specific issue though. I'd argue we shouldn't trust any corporation -- like Google, Amazon, Facebook as well -- and assume they are in bed with the agencies from the get go.

humanrebar 9y ago

At what point does Apple itself bear some responsibility for censoring people? EDIT: Would downvoters please explain their objection to the question? "Apple isn't to blame" and some thoughtful elaboration would be better than just downvoting.

melling 9y ago
You either follow local laws or you leave. How did it work out for Google? Google took a stand and now they’re going back.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  How did that work out for IBM? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
- fulafel 9y ago
  "I was just following orders..."
  - threeseed 9y ago
    Not appropriate. Apple is not directly killing people. And in this case they are simply following the law.
    - Drakim 9y ago
      What if killing people is "following the law"? It's happened a few times in history. Or if that is too big a pill to swallow, what if collecting runaways is "following the law", when they are to be executed? What about monitoring communication for death penalty offenses? (speaking against the state)
      - threeseed 9y ago
        Apple runs an App Store. If they are ever in the situation where they are going to be responsible for killing millions of innocent people then yes let's make sure the stop doing that instead of blindly following the law. Until then how about we stop with the Nazi references.

maxxxxx 9y ago

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

microcolonel 9y ago
> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your government. You can't keep your cake and eat it too.
- marak830 9y ago
  Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps just a little frustration and some constructive argument may lead someone to a better idea of how to handle/fox/or seeup with something. God's know I don't have an answer, but it does worry me.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    In many places where companies are incorporated, that is likely an illegal decision to make for your company. Unless you can argue that the loss of sales in that jurisdiction will be less than the loss in sales abroad (from loss of consumer trust), you probably can't do it. In addition, they likely have ongoing procurement contracts with some companies in China which they would need to continue honouring. In principle I agree with you, but unless this is a founding policy of your company, your shareholders have every right to object.

libeclipse 9y ago

What a despicable joke of a country. And shame on Apple for aiding them while they made such a massive deal of user rights in the US.

oneplane 9y ago
Different countries, different laws... what did you expect?
- aluhut 9y ago
  Balls? Integrity?
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Respect of inalienable rights.
fiblye 9y ago
In America, they're still free to openly complain about American policies. Try that in China and you'll be gone before the week is over and a state-sponsored company will take your place
- vetinari 9y ago
  > In America, they're still free to openly complain about American policies. You can complain only about those, that are inconsequential, or won't change anyway. Otherwise you could be labeled with miscellaneous labels and maybe also beaten at someplaces.
- stephengillie 9y ago
  Complaining is the opiate of the masses.

saurik 9y ago

They also require a paid developer subscription to get access to the Network Extensions capability (needed to build a VPN protocol extension) in order to make sure people who develop these apps can't just provide IPA files for normal users in China to "sideload" using tools such as my Cydia Impactor.

izacus 9y ago
So they go out of their way to prevent users to avoid censorship by themselves on their devices?

oneplane 9y ago

It's not very surprising considering that it's the local law and everyone will have to follow it or get out... It isn't going to actually prevent anyone from tunneling past the great firewall of course, so it's more like a gesture than an actual effective decision from the government.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

saurik 9y ago

adamnemecek 9y ago

Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you. You're a coward.

microcolonel 9y ago
> You're a coward. No, he's a Chief Executive. If the Chief Executive can make more money by saying Apple is going to bat for gay people (in America, so bold! so brave! /s) or for your privacy, then the Chief is going to say it. You're at fault for taking them on their word. What you needed was a contract, not an open letter.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  I know how these things work note the almost.
  - wruza 9y ago
    I was ready to point that "coward" also should be prefixed with "almost" then, but then I read that link: >We have great respect for the professionals at the FBI, and we believe their intentions are good. Up to this point, we have done everything that is both within our power and within the law to help them. But now the U.S. government has asked us for something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create. They have asked us to build a backdoor to the iPhone. [emphasis mine] I think you read what you wanted to read, not what was written. What exactly did you almost believe? There is no "we'll fight to death against all laws and leave markets on failure". There is respect to the agency and "please, no" to non-lawful demands. Maximizing this the other way to "I didn't believe anyway" is just a denial. They have mutually benefical intents, but they ain't no force against a man with a law in one hand and loaded gun in the other. They live in reality. If we only stopped turn claims upside down, the world already would be much better place despite local goverment vectors.
hoorayimhelping 9y ago
>You're a coward. While you're calling another man a coward for not living your values, I'm wondering what you've done to stand up against China that's so fucking brave.

Crontab 9y ago

This is awful, but in England and America, I foresee similar policies will come - in the name of law, safety, and security.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Neither America nor the U.K. have national firewalls in place.
- fredley 9y ago
  Yet. Theresa May would build one right away if she could (and the first steps are being taken)
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    If she could. But they would need to build those first before considering the next step of blocking VPNs. See austrailia at risk also. I doubt it would ever happen in America, however.
- izacus 9y ago
  And yet Apple already polices you for any kind of content you might deem offensive / objectionable or not "family friendly" enough on your iOS device.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Yes. But Apple is a private company, that is there prerogative.
    - the8472 9y ago
      The private company argument has limits. Common carrier status for one. At least in the EU there also are exemptions for repairing and interoperability. In my opinion repairability should extend to the ability for the owner of a device to side-load any software. If apple wants to police their own app-store, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to exclude installation through other means. If they had not complete control over the ecosystem then they would not be in the situation where they can and have to play deputy sheriff for the government.

skybrian 9y ago

They probably had to do it to keep the official store available in China, but this is why supporting side-loading of apps like Android does would be a good idea.

pipio21 9y ago

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

humanrebar 9y ago
I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.
- leppr 9y ago
  It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception for China ?
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they want out of their store.
    - briandear 9y ago
      Why is this downvoted? It’s a factual statement. Freedoms of speech (in the U.S.) is that Congress shall make no law.. A radio station that refuses to play my song or let me talk isn’t violating my freedom of speech. Facebook censoring “hate speech” is not violating freedom of speech. Hate speech is protected speech under the U.S. constitution. (Before anyone brings up Schenck v. United States, that case ruled that speech that present imminent danger (yelling fire in a crowded theater) was not protected, but hate speech doesn’t generally reach a level of immediate danger. So if we are to criticize Apple for curating their store, we must criticize Facebook for curating their platform. We must also crisis Google for their curation of advertising content as well. Because unless hate speech says “kill <some group> today at 5pm at the local market,” it’s broadly protected under the U.S. constitution. What that means that practically every single company in the U.S. is guilty of “violating free speech” – IF they were the government, but they are not and thus aren’t violating anyone’s right to free speech.

mauvehaus 9y ago

This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision. I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere) was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government, or that I really believe that corporations have a responsibility to protect basic human rights (though it would be nice if they did). Still, it'd be nice if corporations didn't try to have it both ways and maintain an image as a courageous force for good when it was convenient while washing their hands of responsibility for any actual action when it became difficult.

patrickaljord 9y ago
Aren't they forced to follow Chinese laws when doing business there? Not saying what they did is moral but it seems the moral question here is whether they be doing business in China, not whether they should be following the laws while doing business their because they don't really have a choice once they decide to do business there. Google for example doesn't do business there so they don't have to respect censorship laws.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  There is no such thing as "once they decide". Once you notice that what you are doing is immoral, you have to revise previous decisions. Also, it's not that cut and dry: If your product actually contributes to the wealth of the country, they cannot just ban you without hurting themselves. Just because they legally can, does not mean you don't have any leverage.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Could Apple really ever decide to not do any business in China - could they extract their phone/computer business without affecting their manufacturing business? Without access to Shenzhen and Foxconn, it seems like it would be a literal corporate suicide.

retox 9y ago

Profits before people, the Apple motto.

joseph4521 9y ago

Seems that Apple is just following, with much delay, the law of People's Republic of China. I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law.

foepys 9y ago
Apple regularly boast about how they are a privacy focused company and just want the best for their consumers by enforcing tight restrictions on all apps. You have no other possibility to install apps on an Apple device but the App Store. Now they effectively block privacy-focused tools in a country that is known to jail everyone that speaks against authorities. That doesn't line up with their rhetoric and people see the hypocrisy.
humanrebar 9y ago
> I don't understand why some people think companies should be above the law. I think certain aspects of justice are above legal frameworks. For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, by lobbying the government for various non-business things (gay rights, climate change, etc.), recognize this. I think wholesale restriction and manipulation of political speech is just wrong even if it is legally mandatory. And, while understandable, I'm not sure (still chewing it over) it's a valid excuse to say that we were just complying with the law.
- cyphar 9y ago
  > For instance, slavery is wrong no matter what the law says. Companies like Apple, While FOXCONN is not slavery, outsourcing work to countries where you can pay incredibly poor people unethically low wages to create expensive products is hardly a good indicator that a company will stand up to laws that don't affect their bottom line.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Does Foxconn pay unethically low wages? The base pay for 40h/week is ~$400/month. In my Western European country, minimum wage is ~$660/month. The difference doesn't seem that much.

imron 9y ago

Alternative title: Apple complies with law in countries where it operates.

sandstrom 9y ago
Saying that that it complies with the local laws is a weak argument. This is about moral and ethics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_prewar_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_pre...
- differentView 9y ago
  The alternative is to stop doing business in China, is that what you want Apple to do?
  - sandstrom 9y ago
    I'm saying that this is a weak argument: Apple complies with law in countries where it operates. Instead one should value the act itself: Is it right or wrong to aid in restricting ~1b people's access to knowledge and information about their government's past deeds[1], current affairs[2], corruption[3], etc. I think it's wrong, other may think it's right. But saying they're following local laws is similar to saying that someone is just respecting German WW2-laws on Jews or apartheid in South Africa. --- [1] Tiananmen Square [2] Food safety (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal) [3] High-official corruption (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-web-access-to-new-york-times.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/26/world/asia/china-blocks-we...)

coldcode 9y ago

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. The market is too large to leave. If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox.

bilbo0s 9y ago
I suppose there are the questions of law and fiduciary duties. If it's the law, it's the law. In China, it's the law to remove VPN apps. I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access. It's just the law, it's not really Facebook and Google trying to screw me. All that said, I think what most posters are advocating is maybe for Apple to just leave China. And, of course, that's where the other shoe drops... with the question of fiduciary duties. So yeah... I see your point... because of the legal issues involved, privacy and access can be tough problems. Not just in China or the US, but elsewhere in the world as well. *EDITS for grammar
- virtuabhi 9y ago
  "I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access." No, in US the directive comes from court and even then the companies can deny the information if it is encrypted (e.g. like Apple did in San Bernardino). I also do not understand the nonsensical argument everyday that if US does small x then it allows other countries to do big X along with big Y. What kind of logic is this?
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    A company cannot legally defy the court in the US. They can only argue against a specific request it and appeal a ruling or an order. As for the San Bernadino case it's not correct. Apple has complied with the court order, they gave the FBI access to the iCloud Account. What they didn't do is to decrypt the phone but they were also not ordered too by the court. If the court would have ordered them to develop a way to decrypt the device and they've lost all appeals they would've complied with that too.

bigtoine123 9y ago

This is horrible, but in England and America, I'm 100% certain that similar policies will be applied - in the name of law, and public security.

paradite 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14880796 Deja vu?

bussiere 9y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I

bussiere 9y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I

drefgert 9y ago

Tech companies must play a long political game and spend their vast fortunes to lobby, to own media and influence policy and control the message. Once they do this the will no longer be in conflict with governments and their policy. Take note in coming years as the tech barons buy up media to control the message. They will of course do this and then the real problem will not be uppity governments but mega tech corporations who semi covertly run the world.

allenleein 9y ago

What would Steve Jobs do?

drefgert 9y ago
The same. Disobey the government in china, stop making money.

sipCom19 9y ago

Apple is free to do what it wants, I'm free not to buy their stuff.

drefgert 9y ago
If you're going to take an "I'll not support Apple cause it complies with Chinese law" position, the ill respect your stance if you stop consuming all Chinese made products. Unless of course you're position is a deeply selective one.

pmarreck 9y ago

Perhaps some free-speech provision should be part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

k-mcgrady 9y ago
Article 19 protects free expression.
- pmarreck 9y ago
  so they just blithely ignore that, got it

gigatexal 9y ago

I wonder what Orwell would have thought of modern China.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

belltaco 9y ago

But with Windows/Linux its still possible to install apps on you own, unlike the locked down app store.

abecedarius 9y ago

If you build in the ability to censor, you can't disclaim responsibility when a state makes you do it. We'll see the same sort of thing in Russia, the UK, and so on. Apple can still act, if they wish, by not locking down their users. I know that'd be a big step for them.

skybrian 9y ago
To be clear, "ability to censor" is basically just having an app store. Companies can decide what they'll include in their store, which means governments can also regulate what they're allowed to sell (or block the app store altogether in that country). That doesn't mean app stores are inherently evil; they still do a lot of good by making sure people can easily find and pay for high-quality apps. As you say, a reasonable alternative would be to allow side loading of apps, so that people can find and load apps distributed via various peer-to-peer ways, without Apple being responsible.
- abecedarius 9y ago
  Yes, a curated app store is a great option to have. It's been said that the app-store-only model is not basically different because you can still buy an unrestricted competing device. I kind of agree, but that's sort of like saying people in China can still decide to move to another country. The cheaper such options are, the more weight to give such an argument. Most people aren't going to carry two phones around.
- Darthy 9y ago
  To be clear, what you mean by "having an app store" is "reverting 40 years of established software usage best practice and downgrade to dictatorial way where a central company can control everything". Words have power. "App store" sounds up-beat, friendly and inclusive. But the rules behind what Apple has established that "App store" actually means are anything but.
  - skybrian 9y ago
    Apple didn't invent the app store and weren't many mobile phones before the iPhone (running J2ME or whatever) even more restrictive? Also, Android doesn't restrict side-loading in this way so I disagree that restricting side-loading is an essential feature of an app store as commonly understood.

Tepix 9y ago

You don't need their closed app store. Free workaround: • apply for a free Apple developer account, • compile your own copy of https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser or https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS and • install it on your own iDevice

gareim 9y ago
You get 10 days before your app stops working and you have to do it again. It's a real pain in the butt.
- yoda_sl 9y ago
  Where do you get that from? Creating app with your own dev account can run on your device for more than 10 days... [Update] ok I just checked the limitation of the free dev account, and yes because of certificates it is only valid for 7 days... I was thinking about the regular $$ account.
  - dannysu 9y ago
    When it was first introduced it was longer. Apple then cracked down on that and made the limit more restrictive.
  - j605 9y ago
    It is idiotic that you can't compile and install something on a device you own.
    - valine 9y ago
      I would pay a large premium for an iPhone that came jailbroken.
    - wingerlang 9y ago
      But you can?

nsxwolf 9y ago

Why hasn't iMessage been blocked in China? Does apple run a special compromised version of it there, or has China simply not made banning it a priority yet, or is iMessage simply not as secure as we have been told?

JulienSchmidt 9y ago
Most likely Apple cooperates with the respective agencies as requested by Chinese laws. If not yet, they will have to start very soon or iMessage will also be blocked. Are there any signs of Censorship on iMessage so far? Are terms that are known to be blocked on WeChat, QQ etc (e.g. 法轮功 / Falun Gong) still working on iMessage?

secfirstmd 9y ago

Terrible news. So lets start tackling the problem and figuring out ways to help the averave Chinese person evade censorhip without developer accounts and the knowledge to compile...

shpx 9y ago

Stallman was right.

saimiam 9y ago

I see a lot of very cogent arguments defending Apple as only following the law when it comes to VPN laws of China. I'm not old enough to know this first hand but I believe the anti-apartheid movement against South Africa was started by students and spread to the corporate world before world governments stepped up to ban doing business with South Africa. This seems to be a specific example of corporate advocacy leading governmental policy. If the Chinese government's rule over the Chinese people is so egregious to the world, I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do business in China and also refused to do business with Chinese companies outside China.

dionian 9y ago
Their shareholders would flip out, no? Even the Chinese people who don’t support the govt would lament the loss of using the phone.
- skc 9y ago
  I doubt this very, very much. It's a phone, not a body part.
differentView 9y ago
>I think Apple would be on solid ground if they refused to do business in China It's not about Apple being on solid ground with anyone. It's about wether Tim Cook can keep his job if shareholders flip their shit.

w8rbt 9y ago

So much for 'Think Different', huh? https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nelsonmandela.jpg https://thisisnotadvertising.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/nel...

vkou 9y ago

Isn't it wonderful that the iPhone is a walled garden, and with the flick of a switch, an entire category of software cannot be ran on it? The fact that this switch exists is the real tragedy here - not the fact that Apple chose to use it.

samcat116 9y ago

I assume they are still allowing manual VPN configurations right? They are only removing apps that configure it automatically for you. Not downplaying the impact of this, just clarifying.

yegle 9y ago
No, there are other apps that implemented other types of VPN using https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension There are many VPN apps that based on ShadowSocks.

mnm1 9y ago

The entire Apple platform is designed to restrict the user and prevent anything that Apple doesn't want to happen from happening. This is Apple's decision only and it's in line with all their other decisions that restrict a user's freedom on their closed, non free platform. If people wanted a platform that would run whatever software they wanted without restrictions, they shouldn't have bought Apple period. That's just dumb to expect a closed, non free platform that censors by default to suddenly do a 180 turn and become free. But hey, it's not like people haven't been saying this for decades now is it? Oh right, people like RMS have but most consumers are too stupid to listen. This is the outcome.

csomar 9y ago

Apple tailors to countries. They made an iOS without facetime for Dubai specifically. It's a good thing, however, that they are fighting for privacy where they can.

onetokeoverthe 9y ago

As much as Trump was/is a clown his point was this. If Apple and other American companies pull out of China, at least we won't be supporting their harvesting of organs from live Falun Gong (yoga) practioners, their eating of dogs boiled alive, and their treating their own citizens like children. There are a lot of sharp, beautiful people in China. They've learned to accept all the dictatorial crap. As Americans, are we going to help these people? How? Those are the questions we should be asking. I for one will make sure my friends in China have access to vpn. And I won't describe the method here, so those commie motherfuckers are less likely to block it!

the_common_man 9y ago

I find all this outrage about Apple not taking a stand highly amusing. Practically every single product used in the western world is made in China. Please report back if you can get rid of all those products at a _personal_ level. For a start, looks like I have throw this laptop away. Not going to happen.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
The mere use of Chinese products is not the problem being discussed.

ComodoHacker 9y ago

Russia is next. They just have passed a law to ban VPNs and anonymous proxies.

Katastrophial 9y ago

Apple is just as evil as Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. There really needs to be an alternative for phones other than Apple and Android.

jonbarker 9y ago

Couldn't you just do this in China? https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-or-ipad https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...

JulienSchmidt 9y ago
The problem is that none of the default protocols work in China. Either they are blocked via DPI in combination with techniques like TCP RST injection / null-routing of the destination IPs, or they are known to be insecure, like PPTP (which is why it is removed in iOS 10)
- jonbarker 9y ago
  I was able to use gmail, skype, etc with some pretty basic vpn knowledge in China.

baozilaile 9y ago

To all in HN: It is a huge market which helping the people in China break the GFW (Great Fire Wall). You can start a startup for that :)

superioritycplx 9y ago

No matter how much a company claims they're for freedom, diversity, and so on to infinity, at the end, it's always about the bottom line for them. ALWAYS.

bobjordan 9y ago

My business has an AWS China account and below is the email I received on Friday. It is definitely a crackdown year, on several fronts even other than the internet. Like this year I was forced to pay a $300 fine because I didn't report to the police station within 24-hrs of re-entry while living in my own leased home. Now, my company is not huge but I've employed +100 people and we pay a lot of taxes, social insurance, provide jobs for local families. They do not give a shit about that you will follow the laws of China to do business here or you will be thrown out. Overall, this year has really chilled my enthusiasm for getting too comfortable with the thought of living here the rest of my working life. In this age with so many elite Chinese being trained and educated abroad, it is really hard to beleive things are going in this directon. I mean, IT Is already hard enough, we need a server in our office that is connected to another server in France, and we need it reliable and without issue. Making this type of stuff even harder on us as a business is really irritating. I really do tell myself every day "if it was easy everybody would be doing it". "Dear Customer, According to the telecom regulations and the requirement of MIIT/MPS and Internet supervision agency, please check up two parts below. • The illegal “over the wall” proxy sites and provide hosting campaign service for illegal “over the wall” proxy sites. • All main domains which don’t have ICP recorded number via MIIT and All websites which have illegal content. We will continuously receive notification from the regulators to close such services or shut down server deployment immediately. In case your will be involved in any consequences of such violation, please stop immediately if you have such illegal services and deployment. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Regards, AWS China (Beijing) Region operated by SINNET"

perfectstorm 9y ago

Doesn't iPhone supports native VPN in Settings ? How are they going to prevent users from using that ? I mean it's not as easy as downloading a dedicated app and logging in but using the Settings app is not much of a work.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dmritard96 9y ago

I always wonder about Hong Kong now that it is under the one country two systems - basically, I wonder if internet censorship will be lessened before HK internet openness disappears.

hungra 9y ago

I love this summary from n-gate.com about this thread "Apple complies with the law. Hackernews experiences cognitive dissonance at the thought that there might be an organization capable of telling Apple what to do. Many thought experiments are performed to try to imagine a world where a corporation might give a shit about human rights. China's secret police show up incognito to explain that anyone who disapproves of Chinese law is probably a Nazi. The rest of the thread is fanfiction about Tim Cook personally exorcising the evil from Beijing."