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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

174 points by frostmatthew 9y ago

combatentropy 9y ago
I would recommend a good internship over any other way of learning, and I would vote for extending the GI bill to help pay for them. Code school won't turn you into much of a coder, nor will an Ivy League university. They will establish some sort of foundation, but I think the benefit-per-month and -per-dollar is not the best. And this is coming from someone who loved school, mades As and Bs, and graduated from a university. Books and online resources are not the whole answer either, not for a beginner. You need a jump start. Maybe school would get you jump started, but an internship would be even better. And this is coming from someone who read thick books cover to cover on JavaScript, Apache, and SQL. I seem to do well with books, not needing a class --- but I wonder if I could have done it without some solid real-life problems to sink my teeth into. I didn't get an internship. I got even better: a job where I could learn on the job --- basically a paid internship. Humans learn best through apprenticeship, on-the-job demonstration, using more than one of their five senses, question-and-answer. It was true in the Middle Ages, and it's true now. We haven't changed. Never underestimate the bandwidth of a human face-to-face interaction.
eclecticsceptic 9y ago
USAA, a financial institution made by the military community for the military community, has a program called Vetfit = veterans for IT. It puts them through an intensive 14 week bootcamp. Perhaps there's not enough knowledge about this program but 1/4 of USAA employees (~31,000) are vets.
dba7dba 9y ago
Allowing for-profit coding bootcamp to teach veterans coding is a very bad idea. Some business types will inevitably try to use it as a get rich quick scheme and waste the resources/time of everyone. Here are some thoughts that I'd like to share I went through the path of starting out as a college grad with a degree in Humanities and got into IT/support/light-coding. Dump the misconceptions: I'm sure soldiers smile when they encounter civilians who are completely clueless about military and everything else that goes with it. Same with the startups and coding career. Everything you read/see on media/TV about startups is pretty much garbage. They may get the personality, haircut, fashion, and the ambiance right (Silicon Valley), but that's not what being a coder is about. Are you cut out for it?: Some are just not cut out to be a coder/programmer. This is not meant as a disrespect. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. I tried really hard to convince an ex Air Force officer (not army, but a desk jockey from AF) to try out a career in IT (not even coding but server/systems management) as he was leaving the service, but he had been forced to do some of it while in service and had bad experience. So he was dead set against it. But one of my ex managers was an enlisted man in Navy/Airforce (not sure, but not army) when I worked as a server/desktop technician and he was good as a server/linux admin. You need to find out if you have the aptitude, patience and passion for IT/code career. Especially with coding because you will have to constantly learn new tools/languages/etc to keep up, all on your own time (nights, weekends). If you have problem with it, you'd be better off not starting it. This is especially true if you don't have a CS degree. With a CS degree, an employer may hire you even if you don't know the programming language used in their product, because they think you can learn quickly enough. With no CS degree, you have to have concrete examples to show that you can learn and do the job, which means even longer personal time spent for self training sessions. I am in the process of switching from Desktop Support into coding, and I know I am spending easily 10 - 20 hrs a week (thanks to RescueTime) on my personal computer watching/reading online courses and typing out the tutorials. I have a full time job and wife/kids. And I spend 2-3 hrs every weekday and/or entire Saturday on my computer each week, learning/practicing coding and everything else (git, HTML/CSS, some bash, some database) related that I realize I need to know. And I am not really advancing fast enough, for lack of time, and I've been in IT for years. Who usually goes to coding bootcamp?: Coding bootcamp is really for someone who already has enough knowledge in coding. Someone who went through a coding school commented on HN that it seemed most already had spent time/energy on their own to learn quite a bit, and joined the bootcamp to get that final push/proof that they can show to potential employer. Consider a coding bootcamp something like a training school a newly minted SF operator attends after he already proved himself in the initial Army bootcamp and years of service as a regular soldier. If you have not already spent substantial time (and actually learning) with computer, a coding bootcamp will mostly likely be a waste of time/money. But you should still consider it seriously: But here's the thing. Starting the training to be a coder/server-admin these days costs almost nothing, unlike the training required to be a jet fighter pilot or a doctor or a lawyer. To be a pilot/doctor/lawyer, you HAVE to get into a training program and find someone to pay (or pay yourself) for the instructors/equipment. But starting a career in IT nothing is like it. All you need is a computer, internet, and time. Half of the coders surveyed on HN (or Stackoverflow?) stated they were self-taught programmers. Of course many others may have started out but gave up. It would be dishonest to not bring that up. So how do you get that initial start and experience to start the journey to be a coder/IT worker? So what to do?: Research. There are many different types of coding, like HTML/CSS. Or coding backend. Or create an iOS app. I think Mr. In the article, Mr. Molina trying his hand first on iOS app was ill advised. He should've first learned about HTML/CSS or bash scripting, not to be an expert but at least know how's it's done. Read a little about different jobs, like tutorials for a few days to get a sense of direction. Spend time on job postings like indeed.com and see what skills/tools are in demand. Spend time on HN and read, to soak up the culture/ambiance, not too much though. Not to be a pretender, but to start thinking like a coder. Find time, lots of big chunks of time. Coding/hacking/building-a-computer all require hours of continuous tinkering, changing, testing. Not like 1 hr here and there but like half a day, or all of your evening. I find myself most productive when I can spend bigger chunks of time working on the same thing. Watch how you spend your time. Use tools like RescueTime or other tools to keep track of how much time you spend. You will be surprised how quickly time passes when you start watching an episode of something on Netflix. Just stop it, until you get a jog as a coder. Find office like environment. This is necessary especially if you are just starting out. Trying to do it alone at home will inevitably lead to netflix/xbox/etc. I've made that very mistake. And I recommend against Starbucks. You want to maximize productivity, and starbucks is not the place. If you can spare $200 - $500 a month, try out co-working spaces like WeWork or NextSpace. It will make you sit down and stare at the laptop screen at minimum. I used the service in between jobs to learn some very basic html/css and it helped. I didn't get a job as HTML/CSS coder but it definitely beat trying to do it at home. Try cheapest plan which usually allows you to use any open desk. If you can only spend evening/weekend, try reserved desk/room. More expensive but you can leave external monitor to go with your laptop, boosting your productivity. Go to meetups. I personally don't because I'm an introvert, but attending a few doesn't hurt imho. Write out things you want to learn. Doesn't matter whether you stick with it or not. Adjust it if necessary. But write it out so that you know what you are doing now. Use Google Doc to take notes as you try out commands, tutorials. Spending time writing out what you learned really reinforces. Especially useful in the beginning. The path to learning anything in IT/coding will be really circuitous. Let's say you want to put up a HTML/CSS website on a VPS server like at DigitalOcean. But before you even touch the server, you may have to learn about vim, ssh, rsync, ftp, Domain registration, yum install, etc. It may be days/weeks before you actually get to do what you initially set out to do. But that's the fun of being in this field. Try setting up a study group, virtual or physical. Use free/cheap tools like Slack, Zoom, codeshare.io, etc to ask questions, help stay focused. Negatives you have to know: Ageism is real. If you never heard of it, search on google and read about it. You are considered over the hill at 40. Many are sharing on HN that recruiters are not returning calls because of perceived age on the resume. I'm near that age and experiencing it myself. You will have to constantly spend own time learning new things. It may even feel like you have to get a new associate degree every 3 - 5 years. I think no such issue exists in the law enforcement, firefighting and such industries. But if you like computers, now is the best time.
prh8 9y ago
> the military didn’t recognize code schools as legitimate enterprises So they feel the same as a lot of us
giardini 9y ago
This is nuts. Only a small percentage of people can learn to effectively generate code. Thinking that veterans can be turned into developers is absurd - they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions. I don't believe that, at this time in the USA or in the future, education will save people in software development from unemployment. The only thing that will do that is having some smarts. And if you're smart, you already know what to do (for you). One of those things to do is head _away_ from software development if you're a noobie. At this time there are more developers worldwide than ever before, work continues to be offshored and developer wages are declining in the USA. You'd almost have to be insane to try to get a job writing code.
- lithos 9y ago
  I haven't seen a Nuke fail to learn to program enough to get stuff done, and the two that stuck with it were annoyed when they realized they were going faster by staying off the internet. (Though this is learning for a hobby). They're going to also do better in a tech interview than most programmers. Mostly because they've survived a program where they have a half dozen or so knowledge interviews a year (that to me were more stressful than my actual job interviews). Though most rates don't remotely compare to nukes, and nukes have more sure ways of getting SV like pay than tossing in with IT developers.
  - giardini 9y ago
    But US Navy nuclear power school grads ("Nukes") are not typical veterans. I should know, I've been lucky enough to have had several as bosses and co-workers. They were first-rate and far too valuable to use as software developers. Their knowledge of naval matters was much more important.
- metaphorm 9y ago
  > they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions. that's an expected outcome of most courses to teach programming. some will excel and others will merely pass. I think that's ok as far as outcome expectations go. what concerns me more is the prevailing attitude among policy-makers that "tech jobs" is a magical panacea for all working class woes.
smelendez 9y ago
Why don't community colleges move into this area?
- metaphorm 9y ago
  a lot of community colleges already have courses like this. here is an example: http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/ http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/ it's essentially an accelerated vocational training program designed to feed in to either entry-level IT jobs, or upgrading to a proper Computer Science degree track. this is common in community colleges, afaik. there are multiple schools in New York City that do this anyway. I guess the major difference is length of the program. community colleges aim for 2 year programs. coding boot camps aim for 12 week programs.
greggman 9y ago
I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I see programs like this it appears the majority of the students are just going through the lessons. The moment the class is over they're back to whatever their real love is. They're basically learning by rote and it's a superficial learning not because they aren't smart but rather because they're disinterested. They're just doing it hoping to get a job, not to scratch an itch / pursue a hobby. As such it feels like they're unlikely to ever become the kinds of people that actually get the jobs they're taking the classes to get. Is there a way to solve that? Is there a technique to evoke a passion for coding in the majority of students or is it more up to the student to bring / discover their own passion? I know a bad teacher can ruin passion and interest. The majority of math and computer teachers seem to not really know what they're teaching and just teaching from a book. I don't know that a great teacher can spark passion an interest though. Maybe they can it a larger percentage of their students but that percentage will being small?
- philippoi 9y ago
  I'd suggest most people who excel at bike riding approach it with the same enthusiasm and drive as you attribute to the programmers who excel (to your credit, you mention "everything else" is the same, which would include cycling until you pick it out as an anecdote at the end of the paragraph) and that's before achieving a level where they can actually make money on their cycling ability. To run with your analogy though: if programming were like riding a bike, that could do great things for society. There would be a significant portion of the working population that understood the idea of what their computers were made to do and improve their ability ability to leverage these machines to assist them in achieving their tasks even more efficiently. That would be the equivalent to the majority of people who can ride a bike and could use that skill to improve their mobility while saving money for themselves and their local society, improving health,..., reaping all of those benefits that can be achieved from knowing how to ride a bike even if most people who can ride a bike will never be able to live off of their bike riding ability.
jondubois 9y ago
There are already more coders than are needed. What there aren't enough of are leaders who are smart enough to recognize this. I cringe at the thought that software engineering could become a "blue collar" profession. Systems have become needlessly over-complicated and this is driving an increase in demand for coders. As companies hire more coders; their systems get more features but they also grow in complexity (particularly if they hire junior coders). Non-technical managers are often not knowledgeable enough about programming/architecture to see that their systems are more complicated than they need to be and never bother to rein-in the complexity. So basically as the complexity increases and becomes harder to manage, companies hire more coders but those coders are a double-edged sword because whilst helping to manage existing complexity, they also add new complexity on the side. Unlike with most other professions, in software development/engineering, there is no limit as to how many people you can throw at a problem; that's because there is no limit to system complexity and richness of features but the law of diminishing returns still applies.
- crispyambulance 9y ago
  So you're taking a dubious theory (tech-debt => hire juniors => more tech-debt, repeat), applying it industry-wide and then using it as an argument against JUST VETERANS from pursuing a career-change into software?
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    where did he apply his argument against JUST VETERANS?
  - jondubois 9y ago
    I have no problems with veterans wanting to become coders. What I don't want more of are people who go into this profession only for the sake of making more money - These people are only driving up software complexity and not actually adding value to their companies. Software engineering is one of the few professions that let you get more money by delivering a lower quality product (assuming that your manager is sufficiently non-technical).
faragon 9y ago
Learn to code requires time. From my experience, after basic education (e.g. before starting High School), with 6 hours per week, during 6 months (144 hours), with a teacher and a easy language (e.g. BASIC or Python) you can accomplish students to have a sound base, so more advanced programming can be put on top of that afterwards. The point of few hours per week is because of the brain requiring time for assimilating knowledge. I.e. unless you have some basis, e.g. knowing a previous computer language, or some similar experience, pushing full-time for learning programming would burn the student. In addition to the "learn to code", there is the case of "knowing to code, but learning new stuff", which can be frustrating, too, if not focused properly. E.g. computer languages work pretty much the same for number computations, algorithms on data (lists, graphs, trees, etc.), so if you know the language X, you'll be able to move quickly to language Y. The problem is when "moving from X to Y" involves more than algorithmics: e.g. if Y involves computer graphics, and you had no previous computer graphics experience, the handicap would be learning computer graphics, not the language Y. Another example, if you're an experienced C/C++ programmer you can take easily on Node.js server stuff, but not on web-client programming, not because of Javascript, but because of requiring learning many additional elements (DOM, CSS, etc.).
NietTim 9y ago
Anyone with a computer, or heck, a tablet, can learn to code.
Kenji 9y ago
Nobody who is not mentally disabled and owns a PC with an internet connection "wants to learn to code but can't". What about showing initiative and teach yourself with one of the infinite resources available on the internet?
OliverJones 9y ago
People who go to coding boot camps often get coding jobs. Many coding schools deliver what they promise their students, which is a job in return for their fee and the student's hard work. It's silly that VA benefits can be used for intensive short courses in for-profit plumbing and truck-driving schools but not coding schools. This is a screwup that needs to be fixed. The VA has screwups in it. SNAFU (situation normal, all f---d up) is a military acronym. They fix SNAFUs when they get pressure from Congress. Of course there's a history of sleazeball entrepreneurs figuring out how to get paid with VA benefits in return for bad education. That's no good. It was already happening at the dawn of the computer age, and it's happening now. It needs to be dealt with, ongoing. There's also a history of people being trained for work without the aptitude to do it well. That's also a waste. It happens in plumbing and truck driving too. Making it hard for veterans to use their benefits to learn to code is not the way to deal with these problems. Plus our industry can use lots more skilful hard working people. You could write to your congresspeople and bring this article to their attention. I did.
dforrestwilson 9y ago
Self-taught veteran coder here. I'm not great, but I've built a few things in Python (with a LOT of input from more experienced developers). I never really thought about coding until I came to a developer with an idea and he said "Great now go build it." It was very intimidating, but I was lucky because I had a boss who gave me the freedom to devote time to learning and many false-starts. It took about 6 months before I had something slammed together that worked. I learned that coding (while hard) is not impossible to learn. More importantly I believe that it re-wired my brain for problem solving. I think more logically than I did before, and that has helped me to learn other skillset and further grow my career. I now have an MBA and work in finance. So I'm sorry but I don't believe that coding is something that you have to be a natural rockstar to do. There are so many small and solvable problems out there and so few coders. These are still wildcatter days. I do tend to agree about programming classes being rote, but isn't that true of any kind of education? Perhaps what is more important is having an employer flexible enough to let their employees learn new skills while working.
nealmydataorg 9y ago
We can help (free of charge) few veterans to code. Our startup provides low code platform to build custom business applications from custom workflow requirements. It is like building custom software from Lego components and it will be easier to learn by using Lego components as opposed to building Lego components. The end result of effort of coding will be custom business application which can help veterans land job. Please contact us by using email found in my profile. Thanks, Neal
mgirdley 9y ago
Few code schools accept GI Bill because it requires them to have been in business for 2 years prior to applying to accept it. There's little stopping schools from getting approved, but the problem is most haven't enough track record or get denied when the VA investigates them.
gargalatas 9y ago
It's obvious that most of you didn't serve to the army of your country. If you did then you would know their level of IQ, perception, education (science in general, maths etc). These people have their brains washed in an irreversible level. Even their educational levels are very low. In the army school (or whatever it's called) they learn to make war not engineering. And their perception? Ohh.. It's simply distorted. They cannot translate a single command they have given with success. But this is army, people on top only occasionally deal with real problems and they never look back to check from the moment they give the command to their inferior. Most of the time they deal with the Shave or the clean boots or the parade! But hey! They are perfect doing other things! They are good supervisors and devoted to single tasks outside of the office. And I think that this is the key to their inner world and the most significant reason for their failure: Single Tasks + Reality Distortion
- rvdavis 9y ago
  Veteran here. Most of us are a humble bunch, but I've met some incredibly gifted individuals while serving... and I served in the US Army Infantry. I would encourage you to rethink your uninformed opinions of us.
  - gargalatas 9y ago
    In my country we serve to the army for 1 year totaly free. Yes, without a payment. I was asking my father to give me 50 bucks to buy a box of cigarettes and drink a beer in the bar. How I felt? Garbage... But here is the worst part. We had a commander A and All day we were serving ourselves. We were taking care of the gardens, making parade, straw broom stuff for hours and many other stupid things with very little education. Every day (and night ofcourse) we had service in the watchtower and every second day we were free and we could go out to town. But some day another commander came. The first day he said to us (he was just arrived in the camp and we were there for months) that the services were many and probably we would not have many "free" days. suddenly we started to have free of service days every 15 days! The law which they were abusing was saying that for the needs of the battalion we could make as many services in a row as it was needed. 15-20 days in a row for 1 day out. And this is a very small example of what army means. What was the diff from Commander A to B? You can spend many many hours thinking but noone can give me back that 1 lost year with all those people. I know them very well. First I thought that only my country's people were like that. But then I realized that everywhere is the same. "Incredibly gifted individuals" are always living in their world. I was lucky to meet some of them. They didn't even know what an FFT is and we were serving in the electronic intelligence.
yogeshp 9y ago
There are free video lectures available online for every topic in Computer Science- https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-courses https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-courses Hope it helps anyone who wants to learn Computer Science.
ank2013 9y ago
Qualifying for GI Bill funding is a long long process, and very challenging for newer organizations. I'm involved with Code Platoon, a non-profit coding school for veterans based in Chicago, that is about to graduate its second class ("platoon"). It's a robust program, at 20 weeks, plus optional internship placement at the end to keep learning - so I think pretty ideal. Companies sponsor 80% of the tuition cost, so the students pay only $2500 out of pocket. Finding sponsor companies is inherently a limiting factor on the program though - GI Bill funding would allow more veterans to participate.
ar15saveslives 9y ago
> I could not use my GI Bill to go to code school. That was the number one roadblock Nobody needs a "code school" to learn how to write code.
- xatan_dank 9y ago
  True, but what does "writing code" mean? If it means learning some basic JavaScript syntax and writing a small text adventure, that isn't hard at all. Learning the mathematical fundamentals of CS on the other hand is a great deal harder, and getting up to speed with what technologies are considered standard is extremely difficult.
  - E6300 9y ago
    You're not going to learn much CS from a code school.
    - sidlls 9y ago
      Many, if not most, software jobs require very little CS knowledge. At such jobs the ability to compare numbers and read a chart (a matrix of algorithms and data structures vs. time vs. space complexity) will cover almost every possible use case. "Mid-level development as a skilled trade" jobs, for example.
      - E6300 9y ago
        Agreed, but those skills can be picked up by anyone with the time to attend classes, for free.
      - elihu 9y ago
        Right. Most programming jobs aren't asking for 5+ years experience in <some language/framework/library> because they're looking for someone who knows how to balance a red-black tree, they're looking for someone who already knows all the workarounds and kludges you'll need to know to do the work they want you to do. Learning a programming language is relatively easy. Knowing which of several libraries that offer similar features is the right one for your particular task takes time.
polpo 9y ago
Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.
- faitswulff 9y ago
  There are VA-approved schools, as the article notes: https://operationcode.org/code_schools https://operationcode.org/code_schools > Some code schools do accept GI Bill benefits — longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies, which work on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs to decide which programs can use GI Bill money. So it can be done, and responsibly. I guess the only thing that's left is to increase the number of seats at VA approved schools.
- rezashirazian 9y ago
  I think established and accredited universities should set up two year coding programs that can teach the trade as opposed to pop up overpriced bootcamps that usually operate without much accountability. Then the GI Bill can pick up the tab for such programs.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    A 4 year college program didn't teach me to code, what makes you think a 2 year program could? I learned how to write my own linked list however..
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      You are being downvoted I suspect because people are assuming you mean it's not possible to learn to code in 2 years, when what I suspect you mean is "why waste resources on poorly planned school curriculum regardless of timing when other options (such as the apprentice model) are available"
lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago
expecting the government to take care of you? where did your personal responsibility go?
- nommm-nommm 9y ago
  What's with these shit posts lately? This is specifically talking about using the "GI bill," (actual name is The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944) which is certain benefits provided in exchange for active duty military service. Education is just one of those benefits, access to special loans is another. It's one of the reasons why people sign up for military service in the first place. It's something that is earned, not given. The argument presented here is you are allowed to use your GI Bill to learn to be a HVAC technician so why shouldn't you be able to use it to learn to be a software engineer? Incidentally, this article is pretty pointless anyways because you actually can learn to be a software engineer with your GI Bill you just have to go to an accredited traditional college or university. They even mention there are "boot camps" that are becoming accredited. Even so, I question how much you can actually learn in less than six months, certainly not enough for a real career in software in my opinion, I base that on my own journey learning and my decade plus experience in industry. I think the point of this article is something like "coding is the new blue collar" or something else irrelevant.
  - lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago
    The restrictions on GI Bill usage are added by congress intentionally to reduce cost of the program. Obviously OP didnt read the somewhat hidden fine prints (more getting added every year) and expects more. The accreditation process (or anything with Department of VA) takes quite a lot of effort that even big education vendors find it hard to justify the resources spent on it (adding a new learning track/update a program requires going through all the hoops again). 6 months can make a huge difference, maybe not for you....
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Well even if you wanted to say that, part of the compensation package of joining the military is having school paid for afterward. So think of it as more of a contract, because it is.
shecodes 9y ago
Time to start a coding bootcamp...
jcoffland 9y ago
All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.
- lordnacho 9y ago
  This is true, but in the same way as this: "Anyone can be physically fit. Everything you need to know about diet and exercise is freely available." In education as in fitness it often helps to have a guiding hand.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  But there is a vast difference between being alone in a room, and being in a room full of people who are all trying to learn the same thing.
  - jxcole 9y ago
    But what you're talking about is more like a club for new coders (which is a good idea). This guy was specifically looking for coding schools, which I assume are online only (so no classroom atmosphere).
    - scott00 9y ago
      Many (most?) coding bootcamps are conducted in person.
- kyleschiller 9y ago
  There's a huge difference between the theoretical ability to learn something and actually having access to education. I completely agree that we're living at a time when anyone with a decent laptop and internet connection has access to the basic required materials, but learning something from scratch with minimal guidance is difficult, and the huge amount of mythologizing around programming has made it even worse. Bootcamps, at least Dev Bootcamp, focus heavily on the mental/emotional aspect of this stuff as much as the technical material itself, and do a lot to build the confidence that really is required for many people. And yeah, I do think most companies are primarily incentivized by profits, but that doesn't mean they can't provide a genuine service at the same time. Full disclaimer, I used to work for Udacity and was "trying to make a buck".
jlarocco 9y ago
"Coding schools" are a sham, and I'm glad they're not covered by the GI Bill. There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  > There's nothing stopping these veterans fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And some self-loathing.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  It depends. I was fortunate to have no obligations, so I left and went to a 4 year school. Many veterans leave and have obligations that may prevent them from being able to handle the reduced amount of income. I don't have any "sympathy" for this, but there are things that prevent many veterans from attending college based on life choices. Also, let me tell you. When I started engineering school I nearly failed out. 5 years of 0 school and it was very difficult to go back to school. I eventually graduated and landed a great job, but there aren't a lot of 4.0 high school valedictorians going to the Army. My point here is that it's complicated. I do agree though that it's good that these coding schools are not covered. But! The GI Bill IIRC does provide support for trade schools. So if you were able to create a coding trade school (which is what most devs are doing in their daily work) you could be able to train veterans.
- RandomOpinion 9y ago
  > There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field. Nothing? Have a little empathy, buddy. While I have some sympathy for your opinion of coding bootcamps, just bear in mind that it's not easy giving up something you've been doing for a couple of decades and going back to college with people half you age and then having to restart your career in an entirely new profession. The mental flexibility one has when one is young just isn't there anymore for these individuals.
  - 9y ago
40acres 9y ago
I don't see the need for Code Schools. Folks can learn almost anything using the resources of the internet. Provide the vets with books on coding for a specialized curriculum for fee and give them some specialized job prep. Many places would love to hire Vets.
- kowdermeister 9y ago
  I teach in a coding school and while there are tons of good contents out there they would hit a brick wall quite soon. We mentor them, we are there 8 hours a day + all day on slack to answer their questions. We run cognitive apprenticeship sessions (live coding) twice a week. We require them to demo what they've learned each Friday and many more nuances that simply browsing MDN won't give you. In short, good coding schools are a shortcut to being a junior developer. They will learn how to learn to code.
- rkho 9y ago
  I would contend that books don't give you the opportunity of practicing the intricacies of interacting with your peers.
  - elihu 9y ago
    Books also don't provide credentials. Having knowledge about a topic isn't usually sufficient to get to the interview stage.
    - notatoad 9y ago
      "code schools" don't provide credentials either. This isn't talking about providing college education to veterans, that is already covered by the GI bill. This is about "coding bootcamp" and "make an iPhone app in two weeks" sort of school. And that doesn't play any better in an interview than self-learning.
      - aianus 9y ago
        Good code schools have existing relationships with recruiters and employers that will get students interviews.
bjshepard 9y ago
What, exactly, is the difference between a "veteran" and a retired stormtrooper? Asking for an anti-imperialist friend.
CamperBob2 9y ago
However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all. Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.
- dmix 9y ago
  > Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change. To me this means anyone who found either top US candidate as a viable option, so am I supposed to dismiss the majority of Americans merely because they voted? Personally this was an off-topic and non-relevant aside that served no purpose but to start flamewars. Politics is a mind-killer. Not to mention hardly everyone who visits HN is even from the US and those outside of it (in western countries who have experienced stable/functional political systems) are very likely looking at the whole thing as a sidehow rather than who one voted for as some deep analogous reference to the topic at hand.
  - CalChris 9y ago
    > Politics is a mind-killer. If you think this is so then don't talk politics. But if you're asking us to be Good Germans that's not going to happen.
    - dmix 9y ago
      Shoehorn your politics into conversations all you like. That's why we have downvote buttons on HN.
      - CamperBob2 9y ago
        So, it's OK for the Trump crowd to "shoehorn" their politics into every inappropriate venue they can find -- for example: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-fda-tvs-now-turned-to-fox-news-and-cant-be-switched/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-fda-tvs-now-turned-to-fox-new... -- but the remaining 74% of us are expected to remain on topic at all costs. Do I basically have your position correct here?
mythrwy 9y ago
Learning to code is all nice and fine. Getting someone to hire to you to code may be a different story.
mikekchar 9y ago
One thing I was surprised about was the price. Can you really get $10K per student in a boot camp/coding school? Googling I found [0]. It's looking like about $1K per week. What kind of student to teacher ratio do they have? I assume they also take referral fees with their placement programs? It occurs to me that I'm in entirely the wrong industry. I'll be honest, I work with a few people out of boot camps, and I really like them. Having junior people on your team that are driven and excited about learning is so beneficial to the overall team dynamic. However, the knowledge deficit is pretty large and it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of "this is good enough" (when it isn't) due to a lack of perception of the scope of the field. Like I said, the people on my team who come from boot camps are really excellent and I would hire them again in a heartbeat. I just have a hard time believing these aren't the cream of the crop. I would feel bad taking $1K a week from general students knowing that they are unlikely to succeed. [0] https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-comparison-full-stack-immersives https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-compa...
- lucidguppy 9y ago
  Code coming out of the universities isn't that great either. That's why you need summer internships / coop education. People need to learn how to take PR criticism the right way - and to learn. I wonder how much improvement you'd see if you handed out "Clean Code" by Martin to junior developers.
mawburn 9y ago
As a veteran and a developer, I think this is a good thing. This title is just clickbait nonsense. The amount of "schools" preying on young veterans for their juicy GI Bills and student loans was sickening. It was basically theft and left a lot of veterans in debt. I saw many soldiers coerced into starting courses just before being deployed. It must have been nice for those schools to have a lot of enrolled students paying absorbent amounts of money who were not even capable of participating in the course. Most coding bootcamps are already predators, keep them the hell away from the GI Bill.
blhack 9y ago
If you live in Phoenix, AZ I will personally 1-on-1 mentor you if you want to learn how to code. Come to heatsync labs every wednesday from 9:00am-3:00pm. (But you have to actually show up AND you have to agree to the curriculum. Email in profile.)
- pegas1 9y ago
  I would do the same: Kennesaw GA, just no office available
- Dangeranger 9y ago
  If you live in Vermont and want one-on-one help you can contact me via twitter: @high_rigour and I'll personally help you out. We have a strong group of engineers here who would like to help veterans free of charge.
austenallred 9y ago
I run a code bootcamp, and I honestly think it's a very good thing that the GI bill doesn't apply to code schools. At least, not until we're controlling for outcomes somehow. Here's why: As soon as GI bills (or any federal funding) enter the education space the product and outcomes no longer matter to the most ambitious (/greedy) companies; all you have to do is capture those dollars before someone else. The product doesn't actually matter in a financial sense because you have person A spending person B's money. I think there's a solution, and the person this article was written about needs to be given a chance, but there needs to be some serious curation. Some online code bootcamps have graduation rates (that's graduation, not even hiring rates) of ~30%. And that's of people who paid $8,000 of their own money. Think what they would be if they were just soaking up GI bill money. Candidly the space is full of garbage schools that don't teach very much already. Look at for-profit education lead gen for accredited universities and you'll see how quickly the race to the bottom happens. ITT Tech is the most recent example, but there's something messed up about the fact that you can sell a hot swap of a potential student on the phone for $500+. It's just an influx of money that needs to be captured from not-too-discerning spenders, and with no connection to outcome. That's bad for all involved. Want to hear something else messed up? One of the most lucrative ways to drive those education leads is from "jobs." Post a fake job, turn someone down, then, "Oh it looks like you don't qualify for job x (that may or may not have existed), but you can attend y for free because there are grants/loans available so do that instead." Farm out those leads to a overseas call center that's paid based on how fast they can get people the biggest loans, and profit. It's a federally funded scam and a wasteland of money the poor and uneducated (or taxpayer) are on the hook for, while the companies best at marketing make a killing. I can't even type because I get so mad thinking about it. So I think GI bills should apply to code schools, but if and only if they meet outcomes x y z. And we're not there yet. As an aside, if there's a vet (or anyone that can't afford it) that wants to learn to code please reach out to me. We're going to be launching a six month online computer science degree soon that's free up front and a percentage of income only after you get a high-paying job. If you don't get there we fail and we get nothing. It's a lot of "credit" risk for us, and you'll have to pay a percentage back, but it's the best we can do, and it's only fair to align incentives. Email in bio.
rubyfan 9y ago
Is there any data out there on how successful code schools are in terms of job placement and more importantly longer term success in hands-on coding (non-managerial)? I've always had a perception (perhaps wrongly) that people who code are somewhat natural at it and don't need to be taught. Honestly I've never met anyone that was any good that was taught to code in school or by a book.
dkarapetyan 9y ago
What we really need are trade schools supported by the community and the state like community colleges. For-profit education like for-profit healthcare is kinda uncivilized and backwards. I think all bootcamps are for-profit so this opens up plenty of room for someone to actually do the right thing and set up a non-profit bootcamp.
whb07 9y ago
I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo). I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I see fit. If you want to spend all of it in University of Phoenix or ITT tech or Harvard go ahead. But to baby people and protect them and removing their own personal responsibility I think is morally wrong and does more harm to the Vet in the long run. Maybe blowing their GI Bill in X school/program wasn't the best choice but hopefully they gain some valuable experience out of it and come out the better for it.
- telchar 9y ago
  From a civilian perspective, hypothetically speaking, why should we continue to fund the GI Bill if it's just going to be wasted? In a world where too many of the veterans get fleeced and get nothing for the money it would be rational for the rest of us to cut that benefit, perhaps replacing it with nothing or with a difference benefit like a larger pension. Personal responsibility is important but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. As a taxpayer I want societal good to come from my tax dollars, so I feel a responsibility to prevent the veterans from being taken by scammers and do discourage scamming in general.
  - dlp211 9y ago
    Because most vets don't use the benefits, and most of the vets that do aren't getting fleeced.
  - arjie 9y ago
    Because it's a deal. They go to places they can die and in exchange you're going to give them this. It's like if you were spending your salary on drugs and gambling. A poor use of your time but poorer justification to cut your salary. It's your money at that point and it's not up to me to cut your salary on that front.
  - omegaham 9y ago
dalacv 9y ago
Forget code... they should learn to bubble. (Bubble.is)
grogenaut 9y ago
I guess another question I have is what is a coder camp doing that it costs more (http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/ http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/) $9,900 for a 9 week (just over 2 months) course, when in state tuition for a year at University of Washington (https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-cost-of-attendance#freshmen-transfer https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-c...) is $10k for around 7 months and out of state is $34,791 for the same time. Eg are they really equivalent to a #12 ranked computer science school (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-washington-3798/overall-rankings https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-washingto...)?
- prh8 9y ago
  What are they doing that universities aren't? Raking in money
- arjie 9y ago
  No one at the university is going to get a job after one year. Something like App Academy has access to companies and provides you with access to recruiters. Secondly it's the rapidity that's an advantage. The fact that they're nine weeks is an advantage. You have to value your time.

174 points by frostmatthew 9y ago

I would recommend a good internship over any other way of learning, and I would vote for extending the GI bill to help pay for them. Code school won't turn you into much of a coder, nor will an Ivy League university. They will establish some sort of foundation, but I think the benefit-per-month and -per-dollar is not the best. And this is coming from someone who loved school, mades As and Bs, and graduated from a university. Books and online resources are not the whole answer either, not for a beginner. You need a jump start. Maybe school would get you jump started, but an internship would be even better. And this is coming from someone who read thick books cover to cover on JavaScript, Apache, and SQL. I seem to do well with books, not needing a class --- but I wonder if I could have done it without some solid real-life problems to sink my teeth into. I didn't get an internship. I got even better: a job where I could learn on the job --- basically a paid internship. Humans learn best through apprenticeship, on-the-job demonstration, using more than one of their five senses, question-and-answer. It was true in the Middle Ages, and it's true now. We haven't changed. Never underestimate the bandwidth of a human face-to-face interaction.

eclecticsceptic 9y ago

USAA, a financial institution made by the military community for the military community, has a program called Vetfit = veterans for IT. It puts them through an intensive 14 week bootcamp. Perhaps there's not enough knowledge about this program but 1/4 of USAA employees (~31,000) are vets.

dba7dba 9y ago

Allowing for-profit coding bootcamp to teach veterans coding is a very bad idea. Some business types will inevitably try to use it as a get rich quick scheme and waste the resources/time of everyone. Here are some thoughts that I'd like to share I went through the path of starting out as a college grad with a degree in Humanities and got into IT/support/light-coding. Dump the misconceptions: I'm sure soldiers smile when they encounter civilians who are completely clueless about military and everything else that goes with it. Same with the startups and coding career. Everything you read/see on media/TV about startups is pretty much garbage. They may get the personality, haircut, fashion, and the ambiance right (Silicon Valley), but that's not what being a coder is about. Are you cut out for it?: Some are just not cut out to be a coder/programmer. This is not meant as a disrespect. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. I tried really hard to convince an ex Air Force officer (not army, but a desk jockey from AF) to try out a career in IT (not even coding but server/systems management) as he was leaving the service, but he had been forced to do some of it while in service and had bad experience. So he was dead set against it. But one of my ex managers was an enlisted man in Navy/Airforce (not sure, but not army) when I worked as a server/desktop technician and he was good as a server/linux admin. You need to find out if you have the aptitude, patience and passion for IT/code career. Especially with coding because you will have to constantly learn new tools/languages/etc to keep up, all on your own time (nights, weekends). If you have problem with it, you'd be better off not starting it. This is especially true if you don't have a CS degree. With a CS degree, an employer may hire you even if you don't know the programming language used in their product, because they think you can learn quickly enough. With no CS degree, you have to have concrete examples to show that you can learn and do the job, which means even longer personal time spent for self training sessions. I am in the process of switching from Desktop Support into coding, and I know I am spending easily 10 - 20 hrs a week (thanks to RescueTime) on my personal computer watching/reading online courses and typing out the tutorials. I have a full time job and wife/kids. And I spend 2-3 hrs every weekday and/or entire Saturday on my computer each week, learning/practicing coding and everything else (git, HTML/CSS, some bash, some database) related that I realize I need to know. And I am not really advancing fast enough, for lack of time, and I've been in IT for years. Who usually goes to coding bootcamp?: Coding bootcamp is really for someone who already has enough knowledge in coding. Someone who went through a coding school commented on HN that it seemed most already had spent time/energy on their own to learn quite a bit, and joined the bootcamp to get that final push/proof that they can show to potential employer. Consider a coding bootcamp something like a training school a newly minted SF operator attends after he already proved himself in the initial Army bootcamp and years of service as a regular soldier. If you have not already spent substantial time (and actually learning) with computer, a coding bootcamp will mostly likely be a waste of time/money. But you should still consider it seriously: But here's the thing. Starting the training to be a coder/server-admin these days costs almost nothing, unlike the training required to be a jet fighter pilot or a doctor or a lawyer. To be a pilot/doctor/lawyer, you HAVE to get into a training program and find someone to pay (or pay yourself) for the instructors/equipment. But starting a career in IT nothing is like it. All you need is a computer, internet, and time. Half of the coders surveyed on HN (or Stackoverflow?) stated they were self-taught programmers. Of course many others may have started out but gave up. It would be dishonest to not bring that up. So how do you get that initial start and experience to start the journey to be a coder/IT worker? So what to do?: Research. There are many different types of coding, like HTML/CSS. Or coding backend. Or create an iOS app. I think Mr. In the article, Mr. Molina trying his hand first on iOS app was ill advised. He should've first learned about HTML/CSS or bash scripting, not to be an expert but at least know how's it's done. Read a little about different jobs, like tutorials for a few days to get a sense of direction. Spend time on job postings like indeed.com and see what skills/tools are in demand. Spend time on HN and read, to soak up the culture/ambiance, not too much though. Not to be a pretender, but to start thinking like a coder. Find time, lots of big chunks of time. Coding/hacking/building-a-computer all require hours of continuous tinkering, changing, testing. Not like 1 hr here and there but like half a day, or all of your evening. I find myself most productive when I can spend bigger chunks of time working on the same thing. Watch how you spend your time. Use tools like RescueTime or other tools to keep track of how much time you spend. You will be surprised how quickly time passes when you start watching an episode of something on Netflix. Just stop it, until you get a jog as a coder. Find office like environment. This is necessary especially if you are just starting out. Trying to do it alone at home will inevitably lead to netflix/xbox/etc. I've made that very mistake. And I recommend against Starbucks. You want to maximize productivity, and starbucks is not the place. If you can spare $200 - $500 a month, try out co-working spaces like WeWork or NextSpace. It will make you sit down and stare at the laptop screen at minimum. I used the service in between jobs to learn some very basic html/css and it helped. I didn't get a job as HTML/CSS coder but it definitely beat trying to do it at home. Try cheapest plan which usually allows you to use any open desk. If you can only spend evening/weekend, try reserved desk/room. More expensive but you can leave external monitor to go with your laptop, boosting your productivity. Go to meetups. I personally don't because I'm an introvert, but attending a few doesn't hurt imho. Write out things you want to learn. Doesn't matter whether you stick with it or not. Adjust it if necessary. But write it out so that you know what you are doing now. Use Google Doc to take notes as you try out commands, tutorials. Spending time writing out what you learned really reinforces. Especially useful in the beginning. The path to learning anything in IT/coding will be really circuitous. Let's say you want to put up a HTML/CSS website on a VPS server like at DigitalOcean. But before you even touch the server, you may have to learn about vim, ssh, rsync, ftp, Domain registration, yum install, etc. It may be days/weeks before you actually get to do what you initially set out to do. But that's the fun of being in this field. Try setting up a study group, virtual or physical. Use free/cheap tools like Slack, Zoom, codeshare.io, etc to ask questions, help stay focused. Negatives you have to know: Ageism is real. If you never heard of it, search on google and read about it. You are considered over the hill at 40. Many are sharing on HN that recruiters are not returning calls because of perceived age on the resume. I'm near that age and experiencing it myself. You will have to constantly spend own time learning new things. It may even feel like you have to get a new associate degree every 3 - 5 years. I think no such issue exists in the law enforcement, firefighting and such industries. But if you like computers, now is the best time.

prh8 9y ago

> the military didn’t recognize code schools as legitimate enterprises So they feel the same as a lot of us

giardini 9y ago

This is nuts. Only a small percentage of people can learn to effectively generate code. Thinking that veterans can be turned into developers is absurd - they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions. I don't believe that, at this time in the USA or in the future, education will save people in software development from unemployment. The only thing that will do that is having some smarts. And if you're smart, you already know what to do (for you). One of those things to do is head _away_ from software development if you're a noobie. At this time there are more developers worldwide than ever before, work continues to be offshored and developer wages are declining in the USA. You'd almost have to be insane to try to get a job writing code.

lithos 9y ago
I haven't seen a Nuke fail to learn to program enough to get stuff done, and the two that stuck with it were annoyed when they realized they were going faster by staying off the internet. (Though this is learning for a hobby). They're going to also do better in a tech interview than most programmers. Mostly because they've survived a program where they have a half dozen or so knowledge interviews a year (that to me were more stressful than my actual job interviews). Though most rates don't remotely compare to nukes, and nukes have more sure ways of getting SV like pay than tossing in with IT developers.
- giardini 9y ago
  But US Navy nuclear power school grads ("Nukes") are not typical veterans. I should know, I've been lucky enough to have had several as bosses and co-workers. They were first-rate and far too valuable to use as software developers. Their knowledge of naval matters was much more important.
metaphorm 9y ago
> they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions. that's an expected outcome of most courses to teach programming. some will excel and others will merely pass. I think that's ok as far as outcome expectations go. what concerns me more is the prevailing attitude among policy-makers that "tech jobs" is a magical panacea for all working class woes.

smelendez 9y ago

Why don't community colleges move into this area?

metaphorm 9y ago
a lot of community colleges already have courses like this. here is an example: http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/ http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/ it's essentially an accelerated vocational training program designed to feed in to either entry-level IT jobs, or upgrading to a proper Computer Science degree track. this is common in community colleges, afaik. there are multiple schools in New York City that do this anyway. I guess the major difference is length of the program. community colleges aim for 2 year programs. coding boot camps aim for 12 week programs.

greggman 9y ago

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I see programs like this it appears the majority of the students are just going through the lessons. The moment the class is over they're back to whatever their real love is. They're basically learning by rote and it's a superficial learning not because they aren't smart but rather because they're disinterested. They're just doing it hoping to get a job, not to scratch an itch / pursue a hobby. As such it feels like they're unlikely to ever become the kinds of people that actually get the jobs they're taking the classes to get. Is there a way to solve that? Is there a technique to evoke a passion for coding in the majority of students or is it more up to the student to bring / discover their own passion? I know a bad teacher can ruin passion and interest. The majority of math and computer teachers seem to not really know what they're teaching and just teaching from a book. I don't know that a great teacher can spark passion an interest though. Maybe they can it a larger percentage of their students but that percentage will being small?

philippoi 9y ago
I'd suggest most people who excel at bike riding approach it with the same enthusiasm and drive as you attribute to the programmers who excel (to your credit, you mention "everything else" is the same, which would include cycling until you pick it out as an anecdote at the end of the paragraph) and that's before achieving a level where they can actually make money on their cycling ability. To run with your analogy though: if programming were like riding a bike, that could do great things for society. There would be a significant portion of the working population that understood the idea of what their computers were made to do and improve their ability ability to leverage these machines to assist them in achieving their tasks even more efficiently. That would be the equivalent to the majority of people who can ride a bike and could use that skill to improve their mobility while saving money for themselves and their local society, improving health,..., reaping all of those benefits that can be achieved from knowing how to ride a bike even if most people who can ride a bike will never be able to live off of their bike riding ability.

jondubois 9y ago

There are already more coders than are needed. What there aren't enough of are leaders who are smart enough to recognize this. I cringe at the thought that software engineering could become a "blue collar" profession. Systems have become needlessly over-complicated and this is driving an increase in demand for coders. As companies hire more coders; their systems get more features but they also grow in complexity (particularly if they hire junior coders). Non-technical managers are often not knowledgeable enough about programming/architecture to see that their systems are more complicated than they need to be and never bother to rein-in the complexity. So basically as the complexity increases and becomes harder to manage, companies hire more coders but those coders are a double-edged sword because whilst helping to manage existing complexity, they also add new complexity on the side. Unlike with most other professions, in software development/engineering, there is no limit as to how many people you can throw at a problem; that's because there is no limit to system complexity and richness of features but the law of diminishing returns still applies.

crispyambulance 9y ago
So you're taking a dubious theory (tech-debt => hire juniors => more tech-debt, repeat), applying it industry-wide and then using it as an argument against JUST VETERANS from pursuing a career-change into software?
- metaphorm 9y ago
  where did he apply his argument against JUST VETERANS?
- jondubois 9y ago
  I have no problems with veterans wanting to become coders. What I don't want more of are people who go into this profession only for the sake of making more money - These people are only driving up software complexity and not actually adding value to their companies. Software engineering is one of the few professions that let you get more money by delivering a lower quality product (assuming that your manager is sufficiently non-technical).

faragon 9y ago

Learn to code requires time. From my experience, after basic education (e.g. before starting High School), with 6 hours per week, during 6 months (144 hours), with a teacher and a easy language (e.g. BASIC or Python) you can accomplish students to have a sound base, so more advanced programming can be put on top of that afterwards. The point of few hours per week is because of the brain requiring time for assimilating knowledge. I.e. unless you have some basis, e.g. knowing a previous computer language, or some similar experience, pushing full-time for learning programming would burn the student. In addition to the "learn to code", there is the case of "knowing to code, but learning new stuff", which can be frustrating, too, if not focused properly. E.g. computer languages work pretty much the same for number computations, algorithms on data (lists, graphs, trees, etc.), so if you know the language X, you'll be able to move quickly to language Y. The problem is when "moving from X to Y" involves more than algorithmics: e.g. if Y involves computer graphics, and you had no previous computer graphics experience, the handicap would be learning computer graphics, not the language Y. Another example, if you're an experienced C/C++ programmer you can take easily on Node.js server stuff, but not on web-client programming, not because of Javascript, but because of requiring learning many additional elements (DOM, CSS, etc.).

NietTim 9y ago

Anyone with a computer, or heck, a tablet, can learn to code.

Kenji 9y ago

Nobody who is not mentally disabled and owns a PC with an internet connection "wants to learn to code but can't". What about showing initiative and teach yourself with one of the infinite resources available on the internet?

OliverJones 9y ago

People who go to coding boot camps often get coding jobs. Many coding schools deliver what they promise their students, which is a job in return for their fee and the student's hard work. It's silly that VA benefits can be used for intensive short courses in for-profit plumbing and truck-driving schools but not coding schools. This is a screwup that needs to be fixed. The VA has screwups in it. SNAFU (situation normal, all f---d up) is a military acronym. They fix SNAFUs when they get pressure from Congress. Of course there's a history of sleazeball entrepreneurs figuring out how to get paid with VA benefits in return for bad education. That's no good. It was already happening at the dawn of the computer age, and it's happening now. It needs to be dealt with, ongoing. There's also a history of people being trained for work without the aptitude to do it well. That's also a waste. It happens in plumbing and truck driving too. Making it hard for veterans to use their benefits to learn to code is not the way to deal with these problems. Plus our industry can use lots more skilful hard working people. You could write to your congresspeople and bring this article to their attention. I did.

dforrestwilson 9y ago

Self-taught veteran coder here. I'm not great, but I've built a few things in Python (with a LOT of input from more experienced developers). I never really thought about coding until I came to a developer with an idea and he said "Great now go build it." It was very intimidating, but I was lucky because I had a boss who gave me the freedom to devote time to learning and many false-starts. It took about 6 months before I had something slammed together that worked. I learned that coding (while hard) is not impossible to learn. More importantly I believe that it re-wired my brain for problem solving. I think more logically than I did before, and that has helped me to learn other skillset and further grow my career. I now have an MBA and work in finance. So I'm sorry but I don't believe that coding is something that you have to be a natural rockstar to do. There are so many small and solvable problems out there and so few coders. These are still wildcatter days. I do tend to agree about programming classes being rote, but isn't that true of any kind of education? Perhaps what is more important is having an employer flexible enough to let their employees learn new skills while working.

nealmydataorg 9y ago

We can help (free of charge) few veterans to code. Our startup provides low code platform to build custom business applications from custom workflow requirements. It is like building custom software from Lego components and it will be easier to learn by using Lego components as opposed to building Lego components. The end result of effort of coding will be custom business application which can help veterans land job. Please contact us by using email found in my profile. Thanks, Neal

mgirdley 9y ago

Few code schools accept GI Bill because it requires them to have been in business for 2 years prior to applying to accept it. There's little stopping schools from getting approved, but the problem is most haven't enough track record or get denied when the VA investigates them.

gargalatas 9y ago

It's obvious that most of you didn't serve to the army of your country. If you did then you would know their level of IQ, perception, education (science in general, maths etc). These people have their brains washed in an irreversible level. Even their educational levels are very low. In the army school (or whatever it's called) they learn to make war not engineering. And their perception? Ohh.. It's simply distorted. They cannot translate a single command they have given with success. But this is army, people on top only occasionally deal with real problems and they never look back to check from the moment they give the command to their inferior. Most of the time they deal with the Shave or the clean boots or the parade! But hey! They are perfect doing other things! They are good supervisors and devoted to single tasks outside of the office. And I think that this is the key to their inner world and the most significant reason for their failure: Single Tasks + Reality Distortion

rvdavis 9y ago
Veteran here. Most of us are a humble bunch, but I've met some incredibly gifted individuals while serving... and I served in the US Army Infantry. I would encourage you to rethink your uninformed opinions of us.
- gargalatas 9y ago
  In my country we serve to the army for 1 year totaly free. Yes, without a payment. I was asking my father to give me 50 bucks to buy a box of cigarettes and drink a beer in the bar. How I felt? Garbage... But here is the worst part. We had a commander A and All day we were serving ourselves. We were taking care of the gardens, making parade, straw broom stuff for hours and many other stupid things with very little education. Every day (and night ofcourse) we had service in the watchtower and every second day we were free and we could go out to town. But some day another commander came. The first day he said to us (he was just arrived in the camp and we were there for months) that the services were many and probably we would not have many "free" days. suddenly we started to have free of service days every 15 days! The law which they were abusing was saying that for the needs of the battalion we could make as many services in a row as it was needed. 15-20 days in a row for 1 day out. And this is a very small example of what army means. What was the diff from Commander A to B? You can spend many many hours thinking but noone can give me back that 1 lost year with all those people. I know them very well. First I thought that only my country's people were like that. But then I realized that everywhere is the same. "Incredibly gifted individuals" are always living in their world. I was lucky to meet some of them. They didn't even know what an FFT is and we were serving in the electronic intelligence.

yogeshp 9y ago

There are free video lectures available online for every topic in Computer Science- https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-courses https://github.com/Developer-Y/cs-video-courses Hope it helps anyone who wants to learn Computer Science.

ank2013 9y ago

Qualifying for GI Bill funding is a long long process, and very challenging for newer organizations. I'm involved with Code Platoon, a non-profit coding school for veterans based in Chicago, that is about to graduate its second class ("platoon"). It's a robust program, at 20 weeks, plus optional internship placement at the end to keep learning - so I think pretty ideal. Companies sponsor 80% of the tuition cost, so the students pay only $2500 out of pocket. Finding sponsor companies is inherently a limiting factor on the program though - GI Bill funding would allow more veterans to participate.

ar15saveslives 9y ago

> I could not use my GI Bill to go to code school. That was the number one roadblock Nobody needs a "code school" to learn how to write code.

xatan_dank 9y ago
True, but what does "writing code" mean? If it means learning some basic JavaScript syntax and writing a small text adventure, that isn't hard at all. Learning the mathematical fundamentals of CS on the other hand is a great deal harder, and getting up to speed with what technologies are considered standard is extremely difficult.
- E6300 9y ago
  You're not going to learn much CS from a code school.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    Many, if not most, software jobs require very little CS knowledge. At such jobs the ability to compare numbers and read a chart (a matrix of algorithms and data structures vs. time vs. space complexity) will cover almost every possible use case. "Mid-level development as a skilled trade" jobs, for example.
    - E6300 9y ago
      Agreed, but those skills can be picked up by anyone with the time to attend classes, for free.
    - elihu 9y ago
      Right. Most programming jobs aren't asking for 5+ years experience in <some language/framework/library> because they're looking for someone who knows how to balance a red-black tree, they're looking for someone who already knows all the workarounds and kludges you'll need to know to do the work they want you to do. Learning a programming language is relatively easy. Knowing which of several libraries that offer similar features is the right one for your particular task takes time.

polpo 9y ago

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

faitswulff 9y ago
There are VA-approved schools, as the article notes: https://operationcode.org/code_schools https://operationcode.org/code_schools > Some code schools do accept GI Bill benefits — longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies, which work on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs to decide which programs can use GI Bill money. So it can be done, and responsibly. I guess the only thing that's left is to increase the number of seats at VA approved schools.
rezashirazian 9y ago
I think established and accredited universities should set up two year coding programs that can teach the trade as opposed to pop up overpriced bootcamps that usually operate without much accountability. Then the GI Bill can pick up the tab for such programs.
- brianwawok 9y ago
  A 4 year college program didn't teach me to code, what makes you think a 2 year program could? I learned how to write my own linked list however..
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    You are being downvoted I suspect because people are assuming you mean it's not possible to learn to code in 2 years, when what I suspect you mean is "why waste resources on poorly planned school curriculum regardless of timing when other options (such as the apprentice model) are available"

lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago

expecting the government to take care of you? where did your personal responsibility go?

nommm-nommm 9y ago
What's with these shit posts lately? This is specifically talking about using the "GI bill," (actual name is The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944) which is certain benefits provided in exchange for active duty military service. Education is just one of those benefits, access to special loans is another. It's one of the reasons why people sign up for military service in the first place. It's something that is earned, not given. The argument presented here is you are allowed to use your GI Bill to learn to be a HVAC technician so why shouldn't you be able to use it to learn to be a software engineer? Incidentally, this article is pretty pointless anyways because you actually can learn to be a software engineer with your GI Bill you just have to go to an accredited traditional college or university. They even mention there are "boot camps" that are becoming accredited. Even so, I question how much you can actually learn in less than six months, certainly not enough for a real career in software in my opinion, I base that on my own journey learning and my decade plus experience in industry. I think the point of this article is something like "coding is the new blue collar" or something else irrelevant.
- lsjdfkljdfwkwdf 9y ago
  The restrictions on GI Bill usage are added by congress intentionally to reduce cost of the program. Obviously OP didnt read the somewhat hidden fine prints (more getting added every year) and expects more. The accreditation process (or anything with Department of VA) takes quite a lot of effort that even big education vendors find it hard to justify the resources spent on it (adding a new learning track/update a program requires going through all the hoops again). 6 months can make a huge difference, maybe not for you....
muninn_ 9y ago
Well even if you wanted to say that, part of the compensation package of joining the military is having school paid for afterward. So think of it as more of a contract, because it is.

shecodes 9y ago

Time to start a coding bootcamp...

jcoffland 9y ago

All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.

lordnacho 9y ago
This is true, but in the same way as this: "Anyone can be physically fit. Everything you need to know about diet and exercise is freely available." In education as in fitness it often helps to have a guiding hand.
killjoywashere 9y ago
But there is a vast difference between being alone in a room, and being in a room full of people who are all trying to learn the same thing.
- jxcole 9y ago
  But what you're talking about is more like a club for new coders (which is a good idea). This guy was specifically looking for coding schools, which I assume are online only (so no classroom atmosphere).
  - scott00 9y ago
    Many (most?) coding bootcamps are conducted in person.
kyleschiller 9y ago
There's a huge difference between the theoretical ability to learn something and actually having access to education. I completely agree that we're living at a time when anyone with a decent laptop and internet connection has access to the basic required materials, but learning something from scratch with minimal guidance is difficult, and the huge amount of mythologizing around programming has made it even worse. Bootcamps, at least Dev Bootcamp, focus heavily on the mental/emotional aspect of this stuff as much as the technical material itself, and do a lot to build the confidence that really is required for many people. And yeah, I do think most companies are primarily incentivized by profits, but that doesn't mean they can't provide a genuine service at the same time. Full disclaimer, I used to work for Udacity and was "trying to make a buck".

jlarocco 9y ago

"Coding schools" are a sham, and I'm glad they're not covered by the GI Bill. There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field.

killjoywashere 9y ago
> There's nothing stopping these veterans fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And some self-loathing.
muninn_ 9y ago
It depends. I was fortunate to have no obligations, so I left and went to a 4 year school. Many veterans leave and have obligations that may prevent them from being able to handle the reduced amount of income. I don't have any "sympathy" for this, but there are things that prevent many veterans from attending college based on life choices. Also, let me tell you. When I started engineering school I nearly failed out. 5 years of 0 school and it was very difficult to go back to school. I eventually graduated and landed a great job, but there aren't a lot of 4.0 high school valedictorians going to the Army. My point here is that it's complicated. I do agree though that it's good that these coding schools are not covered. But! The GI Bill IIRC does provide support for trade schools. So if you were able to create a coding trade school (which is what most devs are doing in their daily work) you could be able to train veterans.
RandomOpinion 9y ago
> There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field. Nothing? Have a little empathy, buddy. While I have some sympathy for your opinion of coding bootcamps, just bear in mind that it's not easy giving up something you've been doing for a couple of decades and going back to college with people half you age and then having to restart your career in an entirely new profession. The mental flexibility one has when one is young just isn't there anymore for these individuals.
- 9y ago

40acres 9y ago

I don't see the need for Code Schools. Folks can learn almost anything using the resources of the internet. Provide the vets with books on coding for a specialized curriculum for fee and give them some specialized job prep. Many places would love to hire Vets.

kowdermeister 9y ago
I teach in a coding school and while there are tons of good contents out there they would hit a brick wall quite soon. We mentor them, we are there 8 hours a day + all day on slack to answer their questions. We run cognitive apprenticeship sessions (live coding) twice a week. We require them to demo what they've learned each Friday and many more nuances that simply browsing MDN won't give you. In short, good coding schools are a shortcut to being a junior developer. They will learn how to learn to code.
rkho 9y ago
I would contend that books don't give you the opportunity of practicing the intricacies of interacting with your peers.
- elihu 9y ago
  Books also don't provide credentials. Having knowledge about a topic isn't usually sufficient to get to the interview stage.
  - notatoad 9y ago
    "code schools" don't provide credentials either. This isn't talking about providing college education to veterans, that is already covered by the GI bill. This is about "coding bootcamp" and "make an iPhone app in two weeks" sort of school. And that doesn't play any better in an interview than self-learning.
    - aianus 9y ago
      Good code schools have existing relationships with recruiters and employers that will get students interviews.

bjshepard 9y ago

What, exactly, is the difference between a "veteran" and a retired stormtrooper? Asking for an anti-imperialist friend.

CamperBob2 9y ago

However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all. Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

dmix 9y ago
> Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change. To me this means anyone who found either top US candidate as a viable option, so am I supposed to dismiss the majority of Americans merely because they voted? Personally this was an off-topic and non-relevant aside that served no purpose but to start flamewars. Politics is a mind-killer. Not to mention hardly everyone who visits HN is even from the US and those outside of it (in western countries who have experienced stable/functional political systems) are very likely looking at the whole thing as a sidehow rather than who one voted for as some deep analogous reference to the topic at hand.
- CalChris 9y ago
  > Politics is a mind-killer. If you think this is so then don't talk politics. But if you're asking us to be Good Germans that's not going to happen.
  - dmix 9y ago
    Shoehorn your politics into conversations all you like. That's why we have downvote buttons on HN.
    - CamperBob2 9y ago
      So, it's OK for the Trump crowd to "shoehorn" their politics into every inappropriate venue they can find -- for example: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-fda-tvs-now-turned-to-fox-news-and-cant-be-switched/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-fda-tvs-now-turned-to-fox-new... -- but the remaining 74% of us are expected to remain on topic at all costs. Do I basically have your position correct here?

mythrwy 9y ago

Learning to code is all nice and fine. Getting someone to hire to you to code may be a different story.

mikekchar 9y ago

One thing I was surprised about was the price. Can you really get $10K per student in a boot camp/coding school? Googling I found [0]. It's looking like about $1K per week. What kind of student to teacher ratio do they have? I assume they also take referral fees with their placement programs? It occurs to me that I'm in entirely the wrong industry. I'll be honest, I work with a few people out of boot camps, and I really like them. Having junior people on your team that are driven and excited about learning is so beneficial to the overall team dynamic. However, the knowledge deficit is pretty large and it's pretty easy to fall into the trap of "this is good enough" (when it isn't) due to a lack of perception of the scope of the field. Like I said, the people on my team who come from boot camps are really excellent and I would hire them again in a heartbeat. I just have a hard time believing these aren't the cream of the crop. I would feel bad taking $1K a week from general students knowing that they are unlikely to succeed. [0] https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-comparison-full-stack-immersives https://www.coursereport.com/blog/coding-bootcamp-cost-compa...

lucidguppy 9y ago
Code coming out of the universities isn't that great either. That's why you need summer internships / coop education. People need to learn how to take PR criticism the right way - and to learn. I wonder how much improvement you'd see if you handed out "Clean Code" by Martin to junior developers.

mawburn 9y ago

As a veteran and a developer, I think this is a good thing. This title is just clickbait nonsense. The amount of "schools" preying on young veterans for their juicy GI Bills and student loans was sickening. It was basically theft and left a lot of veterans in debt. I saw many soldiers coerced into starting courses just before being deployed. It must have been nice for those schools to have a lot of enrolled students paying absorbent amounts of money who were not even capable of participating in the course. Most coding bootcamps are already predators, keep them the hell away from the GI Bill.

blhack 9y ago

If you live in Phoenix, AZ I will personally 1-on-1 mentor you if you want to learn how to code. Come to heatsync labs every wednesday from 9:00am-3:00pm. (But you have to actually show up AND you have to agree to the curriculum. Email in profile.)

pegas1 9y ago
I would do the same: Kennesaw GA, just no office available
Dangeranger 9y ago
If you live in Vermont and want one-on-one help you can contact me via twitter: @high_rigour and I'll personally help you out. We have a strong group of engineers here who would like to help veterans free of charge.

austenallred 9y ago

I run a code bootcamp, and I honestly think it's a very good thing that the GI bill doesn't apply to code schools. At least, not until we're controlling for outcomes somehow. Here's why: As soon as GI bills (or any federal funding) enter the education space the product and outcomes no longer matter to the most ambitious (/greedy) companies; all you have to do is capture those dollars before someone else. The product doesn't actually matter in a financial sense because you have person A spending person B's money. I think there's a solution, and the person this article was written about needs to be given a chance, but there needs to be some serious curation. Some online code bootcamps have graduation rates (that's graduation, not even hiring rates) of ~30%. And that's of people who paid $8,000 of their own money. Think what they would be if they were just soaking up GI bill money. Candidly the space is full of garbage schools that don't teach very much already. Look at for-profit education lead gen for accredited universities and you'll see how quickly the race to the bottom happens. ITT Tech is the most recent example, but there's something messed up about the fact that you can sell a hot swap of a potential student on the phone for $500+. It's just an influx of money that needs to be captured from not-too-discerning spenders, and with no connection to outcome. That's bad for all involved. Want to hear something else messed up? One of the most lucrative ways to drive those education leads is from "jobs." Post a fake job, turn someone down, then, "Oh it looks like you don't qualify for job x (that may or may not have existed), but you can attend y for free because there are grants/loans available so do that instead." Farm out those leads to a overseas call center that's paid based on how fast they can get people the biggest loans, and profit. It's a federally funded scam and a wasteland of money the poor and uneducated (or taxpayer) are on the hook for, while the companies best at marketing make a killing. I can't even type because I get so mad thinking about it. So I think GI bills should apply to code schools, but if and only if they meet outcomes x y z. And we're not there yet. As an aside, if there's a vet (or anyone that can't afford it) that wants to learn to code please reach out to me. We're going to be launching a six month online computer science degree soon that's free up front and a percentage of income only after you get a high-paying job. If you don't get there we fail and we get nothing. It's a lot of "credit" risk for us, and you'll have to pay a percentage back, but it's the best we can do, and it's only fair to align incentives. Email in bio.

rubyfan 9y ago

Is there any data out there on how successful code schools are in terms of job placement and more importantly longer term success in hands-on coding (non-managerial)? I've always had a perception (perhaps wrongly) that people who code are somewhat natural at it and don't need to be taught. Honestly I've never met anyone that was any good that was taught to code in school or by a book.

dkarapetyan 9y ago

What we really need are trade schools supported by the community and the state like community colleges. For-profit education like for-profit healthcare is kinda uncivilized and backwards. I think all bootcamps are for-profit so this opens up plenty of room for someone to actually do the right thing and set up a non-profit bootcamp.

whb07 9y ago

I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo). I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I see fit. If you want to spend all of it in University of Phoenix or ITT tech or Harvard go ahead. But to baby people and protect them and removing their own personal responsibility I think is morally wrong and does more harm to the Vet in the long run. Maybe blowing their GI Bill in X school/program wasn't the best choice but hopefully they gain some valuable experience out of it and come out the better for it.

telchar 9y ago
From a civilian perspective, hypothetically speaking, why should we continue to fund the GI Bill if it's just going to be wasted? In a world where too many of the veterans get fleeced and get nothing for the money it would be rational for the rest of us to cut that benefit, perhaps replacing it with nothing or with a difference benefit like a larger pension. Personal responsibility is important but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. As a taxpayer I want societal good to come from my tax dollars, so I feel a responsibility to prevent the veterans from being taken by scammers and do discourage scamming in general.
- dlp211 9y ago
  Because most vets don't use the benefits, and most of the vets that do aren't getting fleeced.
- arjie 9y ago
  Because it's a deal. They go to places they can die and in exchange you're going to give them this. It's like if you were spending your salary on drugs and gambling. A poor use of your time but poorer justification to cut your salary. It's your money at that point and it's not up to me to cut your salary on that front.
- omegaham 9y ago

dalacv 9y ago

Forget code... they should learn to bubble. (Bubble.is)

grogenaut 9y ago

I guess another question I have is what is a coder camp doing that it costs more (http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/ http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/) $9,900 for a 9 week (just over 2 months) course, when in state tuition for a year at University of Washington (https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-cost-of-attendance#freshmen-transfer https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-c...) is $10k for around 7 months and out of state is $34,791 for the same time. Eg are they really equivalent to a #12 ranked computer science school (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-washington-3798/overall-rankings https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-washingto...)?

prh8 9y ago
What are they doing that universities aren't? Raking in money
arjie 9y ago
No one at the university is going to get a job after one year. Something like App Academy has access to companies and provides you with access to recruiters. Secondly it's the rapidity that's an advantage. The fact that they're nine weeks is an advantage. You have to value your time.