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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence
- blhack 10y agoGood. I wish that he would just pardon her, though. I don't want the next administration to somehow undo this.
- siegecraft 10y agoYes, it seems very cowardly and very much passing the buck and doesn't acknowledge that what she did was justified at all, just that mercy was granted.
- gph 10y agoIsn't that exactly what Obama was trying for? I've never read any statements from the Obama administration that makes it seem like they find anything about this case justified or acceptable.
- detaro 10y agoThis quote by a spokesperson in the article supports that: “Chelsea Manning is somebody who went through the military criminal justice process, was exposed to due process, was found guilty, was sentenced for her crimes, and she acknowledged wrongdoing,” A criminal that's being granted a shorter sentence, not the "support" for someones actions a pardon would be.
- wheelerwj 10y agoShe can't be tried again though, so how would they undo it?
- jandrese 10y agoMidnight assassination squads? They could start digging through laws looking for anything they can make stick (parking violations, jaywalking, etc...), but IMHO the most likely scenario is that nothing further happens to Chelsea Manning. She is yesterday's news. She is never going to work in a government position again, but somehow I don't think that's going to be relevant to her future plans.
- r00fus 10y agoNot for the same crimes, of course.
- DINKDINK 10y agoLegally they wouldn't be able to convict Manning of the same crime again. The state can do what they do with every dissident; surveil her in the extreme and then prosecute her for some trivial offense. Law is extremely complex and dense. You have certainly broken laws but haven't been punished for them sole reason that you haven't drawn the ire of the political class. Do you think it's just mere coincidence that anytime a citizen embarrasses the police they end up being busted for some trivial offense? The Fourth Amendment was designed to prevent the state from harassing citizens and to rate limit the states ability to execute revenge convictions. With everyone having a dossier on them now, the state implicitly chills citizens from pushing back against the government.
- FrostyElsa 10y agoOJ stole a TV after being found guilty in his murder trial decades later? 30-life. Yeah. Talk about a disproportionate punishment.
- voxic11 10y agoJust order the prison not to release them. That's what Bush did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Toussie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Toussie
- unclenoriega 10y agoMy understanding is that President Bush was able to revoke the pardon because it hadn't been executed yet. This won't be the case with Manning's commutation.
- analogmemory 10y agoI was curious and looked up the difference. http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3339765&page=1 http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3339765&page=1 A "pardon wipes out the conviction while a commutation leaves the conviction intact but wipes out the punishment." It seems that the next administration can't do anything about it at least.
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y agoIt won't be undone under Trump. If anything, he would grant immediate clemency or a pardon (though I don't expect either).
- dragonwriter 10y agoWhile the right loves WikiLeaks now, that's all because of Assange's more recent tactions that don't involve Manning; at the time, they wanted Manning and Assange treated as enemy combatants, while that's changed for Assange because he has now served their political interests, I don't see any indication that it has for Manning.
- mikeash 10y agoWouldn't it be outrageously unconstitutional to undo this?
- noobermin 10y agoWell given Trump's recent skirting around the emoluments clause... Let's hope he doesn't do that.
- mikeash 10y agoWell, that's why I said "outrageously." It's a lot more clear when there's an obvious wronged party and the outcome is an American in prison when they shouldn't be. It would surely be challenged in court, and won.
- cowardlydragon 10y agoWe are effectively in a post-constitutional era... It's been a grey area with NSA spying and many other federal overreaches for a while, but with Trump it's official.
- peteretep 10y ago> I don't want the next administration > to somehow undo this. Cui bono? What a freakin' distraction that would be.
- dragonwriter 10y agoDistraction is pretty much the modus operandi of Trump, so...
- peteretep 10y agoYou know what? That's a great answer, and I hadn't thought of that. It would make an interesting way of distracting from something else.
- qz_ 10y agoI hope this will set the tone for how whistleblowers are treated in the future, and I wonder what the President Elect has to say about this.
- ssully 10y agoI am confident he will have a few tweets about this before tomorrow morning. Does anyone know if President Elect Trump has the authority to overturn this sentence commuting?
- rosser 10y agoSubsequent presidents can "un-pardon" people pardoned by previous presidents, so I have a hard time imagining that a commutation is somehow immune to that kind of thing. EDIT: See follow-ups. I may be mistaken here, and need to run to a meeting, so I can't dig any more now. EDIT 2: http://swampland.time.com/2008/12/25/more-on-pardons/ http://swampland.time.com/2008/12/25/more-on-pardons/ Relevant quote, "Ulysses S. Grant’s first clemency decision, on his third day in office, was to revoke two pardons granted by Andrew Johnson. Both men challenged Grant’s power to do so, and lost their case in federal court." EDIT 3: Here's the link to the blog post linked from the Time article, in edit 2, from the Wayback Machine, for sake of completeness. http://web.archive.org/web/20090212091707/http://pardonpower.com/2008/12/on-revocation-of-pardons.html http://web.archive.org/web/20090212091707/http://pardonpower...
- hackuser 10y ago> Subsequent presidents can "un-pardon" people pardoned by previous presidents I've never heard that, never heard of it happening, and don't believe it's true. However, I've never researched it. Can you cite an example or a source?
- rosser 10y agoI remember reading something some time ago about Grant having reversed some of Johnson's pardons, but I'm not finding a reference to specifics, so I may be mistaken. EDIT: Found it. See my post up-thread for a link.
- searine 10y agoI am going to miss Obama.
- d33 10y agoWhy?
- zeofig 10y ago'Cause it's true, what they say-ooh-ayayy...
- godzillabrennus 10y agoHe has a likable personality.
- mtgx 10y agoHe tells good jokes and invites all the media and Hollywood personalities to White House dinners and cocktails. I mean what more do you want from your president in order to like him?!
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoHe really does. Regardless of whether you like his politics or not he really seems like a genuine, down to Earth person. He always seems professional and articulate. I will miss that aspect of a president.
- mschuster91 10y ago> He always seems professional and articulate. Yes, especially in comparison to you-know-who got elected... what a massive contrast.
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- 464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
- redorb 10y agoThis is great and I think pretty easy to see as a good thing by all sides (I hope). I never understand why pardons and this type of thing always seem to have a waiting period though; just being grateful the right thing (As I see it) is being done.
- TillE 10y agoPolitical cowardice, mostly. It's something you can only safely do once you're a lame duck. Not sure why they don't typically do it in December, though.
- cableshaft 10y agoObama has been pardoning people since 2010, and in fact pardoned a whole big chunk of people in December of 2016. Source: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/obama-pardons https://www.justice.gov/pardon/obama-pardons
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- chollida1 10y agoIt's been said that one person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. > The files she copied also included about 250,000 diplomatic cables from American embassies around the world showing sensitive deals and conversations, dossiers detailing intelligence assessments of Guantánamo detainees held without trial, and a video of an American helicopter attack in Baghdad in two Reuters journalists were killed, among others. Has there been any sort of "ethical" system designed to show a person how they are supposed to whistle blow? I'm only familiar with the SEC's guidance, on what they expect you to do and going public isn't one of their main points. How should a person become a whistle blower like Manning or Snowden while making sure there is no collateral damage to people in the field? I mean, the main point against Snowden and Manning seems to be that they released way too much information to the public that could be seen as doing more harm than good depending on your point of view.
- baybal2 10y agoHe did damn good job!
- elliotec 10y agoI don't think anybody has answers to your questions, and there seems to be no solution in sight for these issues.
- problems 10y agoIf you're knowledgable enough to censor the documents yourself before release, that's the way to go. Not everyone has perfect knowledge. Releasing only to journalists and stuff is a fairly good method too, but maybe create unnecessary exposure. Manning also went for a bulk dump strategy rather than being selective. Ultimately when you're dealing with a lot of data, that might be the only reasonable way to get it, but leaking unnecessary data where no incriminating evidence is present certainly detracts from the legitimacy of whistleblowing claims. If you can afford the time to be selective in your dumping or at least in your releasing, take it. Unfortunately some of Manning's stuff got leaked in full, I believe not due to anything of Manning or Wikileaks' fault, but because an uninformed or careless journalist published an insurance key he shouldn't have.
- headcanon 10y agohow much you wanna bet that Julian Assange will conveniently forget his agreement to be extradited if Manning gets pardoned? https://www.yahoo.com/news/assange-agrees-extradition-us-releases-whistleblower-222625053.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/assange-agrees-extradition-us-rel...
- noja 10y agoHe didn't pardon her.
- skolos 10y agoThe article was talking about clemency, not pardon.
- cadlin 10y agoThis DoJ list of clemency recipients includes both pardons and commutations. https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemencyrecipients https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemencyrecipients
- ceejayoz 10y agohttps://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713 "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case"
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- mona_simpson 10y agoForget what? There was no pardon by Obama, so that agreement does not apply. Why would you want to detract from the good news of Chelsea having a release date in the very near future and conflate that with a different issue regarding Assange?
- detaro 10y ago
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- temp-dude-87844 10y agoSadly, this act was just another political tool to contrast with Snowden. Quote from the article: the White House spokesman, Joshua Earnest, discussed the "pretty stark difference" between Ms. Manning's case for mercy with Mr. Snowden's. While their offenses were similar, he said, there were "some important differences." "Chelsea Manning is somebody who went through the military criminal justice process, was exposed to due process, was found guilty, was sentenced for her crimes, and she acknowledged wrongdoing," he said. "Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy." He also noted that while the documents Ms. Manning provided to WikiLeaks were "damaging to national security," the ones Mr. Snowden disclosed were "far more serious and far more dangerous." (None of the documents Ms. Manning disclosed were classified above the merely "secret" level.)
- flanbiscuit 10y agoNow pardon Snowden
- djsumdog 10y agoAnd admit you're the cause of the Assange investigation which has kept him locked up in an embassy for years as well.
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y agoSeriously. This is such terrible backroom political manipulation. The real thing that worries me is what exactly are we using to leverage sweden to go after assange this hard. What damage has obama done to our relationship with them?
- jacobush 10y agoDon't worry. You maybe threatened there will be no dessert after dinner. Do I sound bitter?
- runevault 10y agoI sort of wonder if it would matter. Whether they should or not, I really doubt the parts of the government he pissed off will forgive him just because they are told to.
- vinay427 10y agoA pardon would allow him a valid passport to travel to a different country that would be willing to house him without having to ignore extradition requests. He would not need to return to the US if he felt endangered there.
- runevault 10y agoOkay THAT is a good reason then. Thanks for the correction.
- notpc 10y agoManning indiscriminately leaked tons of diplomatic cables, as part of a personal vendetta against the US Army. It is without contention that the vast majority of the leaked cables revealed nothing that anyone considers wrongdoing. This wasn't the act of a whistle blower. It was the cowardly act of someone who put their own petty fantasies ahead of their solemn duty to protect the information they were entrusted with by the people of this country. This is nothing but Obama pandering to the left. EDIT: How telling that this comment has been flagged. Downvoting opinions you don't like is bad enough, trying to kill them altogether by flagging betrays a serious contempt for open discourse.
- gipp 10y agoWhat need does Obama have to pander to anyone right now?
- notpc 10y agoIt's been reported in the news for the last month that Obama has no intention of retiring from public life. He's going to be a major spokesman and "spiritual leader" of sorts for the Democrats going forward. The reason is that the Democrats don't have a good "bench." Most of the Democrats remaining in positions of power are creatures of big-city machine politics, not exactly likable populists who can counter Trump.
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y agoI hope Obama stays around. He's done so well at building up the Democratic party in the past 8 years, here's hoping he stays around and does the same thing for the next 8!
- kyleblarson 10y agoObama's legacy in 3 words: President Donald Trump
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- vvpan 10y agoSigh... The scheming and carefully crafted rhetoric that White House has developed against Snowden is just plain disgusting.
- andrewclunn 10y agoIronically, Snowden likely skipped the country as part of his leak precisely because of what had happened to Manning. Claiming that there's mercy for him if he comes back for a last minute commute by an outgoing President after 7 years... I mean, who do they think they're fooling?
- vvpan 10y agoPrecedents set for whistelblower treatment have not been very good the past decade.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- djsumdog 10y agoSeven years is still a long time for whistle blowing. I'm glad to see she is still getting released though. It's important to note commuting the sentence is not a pardon. Chelsea will still have this conviction for the rest of her life. I know there is a lot of controversy with Manning compared to Wikileaks et. al. as far as not redacting documents or using a discriminating news source to filter them. Still, I oppose state secrets and the Hillary e-mails are actually very chilling when you start reading through them. I still side with Manning. Too many of the Snowden documents were redacted with critical information (like which hardware encryption chips were compromised by the US government). No one has the actual Pentagon Papers outside of very specific news agencies. Manning gave the entire story to the people .. and I find it more sad that we didn't see more outrage and change from that release. I also see another message here. Obama is trying to leave a positive view of the Democratic legacy with this lasting memory. It helps people forget about the predator drones, secret kill lists, continuation of torture, NSA spying and the expansion of war, military and the American hegemony throughout the world. I wish people would see this manipulation; this handout to the left to keep them angry at the incoming administration and not at the government that continues to spy on them and kill people without trial in and endless sea of never ending conflict.
- rthomas6 10y agoI have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not punish Manning? It would do a lot to encourage others to indiscriminately leak classified info. Which would be bad.
- mhurron 10y agoClassifying material should not be a way for the Government to hide corruption and wrongdoing. Whistle blowing is the only way that prevents that. Chelsea Manning acted on her conscience, which is the best we can expect anyone to do. The governments punishment was to prevent that happening again.
- gk1 10y agoFor anyone else who was curious: Commute - reduce (a judicial sentence, especially a sentence of death) to one less severe.
- mtgx 10y agoIt's too bad it took a presidential order to commute her sentence to 8 years, when it probably should've been the longest sentence she should've gotten by default, if not much less, if she even had to be jailed in the first place. I think she only got imprisoned for so long because that's how the military operates. Right or wrong, they want to set an example of soldiers that something like this, so that others aren't encouraged to do the same. Also, too bad Obama didn't pardon Snowden. He should have.
- nueded 10y agoThis made me genuinely happy. Thanks, Obama. For real.
- pavlov 10y agoManning will be released in May this year, just after Trump's first 100 days in office. It's almost like Obama is timing this as a reminder of himself at a point in the future where it's bound to provide maximum irritation to his successor. (I don't think that's the actual intention, but we can definitely look forward to some interesting tweetstorms from Trump in May.)
- akjainaj 10y agoWhy can the US president meddle with the sentence of a convict? Isn't that against the separation of powers? Not that I have anything against this guy Manning in particular, just asking why is this "tolerable" in a democracy. Isn't it a risk, that the president can pardon whoever he wants?
- hsod 10y agoIt's actually explicitly in the Constitution: "The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." Article II, Section 2
- akjainaj 10y agoSo it's only possible if it was something that was done against the US?
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- mikeash 10y agoRight, which means federal crimes, not state crimes. The President won't be granting pardons to ordinary murderers, unless the murder took place on federal lands.
- chriscappuccio 10y agoActually, murder isn't a federal crime.
- dragonwriter 10y ago> Actually, murder isn't a federal crime. Actually, murder is a federal crime, see 18 USC Secs. 1111, 1114, and 1118-1121. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-51 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-51
- symlinkk 10y agoAnd now let's see if Assange keeps his promise to extradite to the US. https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713
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- LordKano 10y agoCommuting Manning's sentence without pardoning Snowden feels like politics to me. Manning's actions embarrassed the Bush administration so Obama will commute. Snowden's actions embarrassed the Obama administration so Obama won't pardon.
- arbitrage 10y agoChelsea Manning stood trial. Edward Snowden did not.
- LordKano 10y agoStanding trial isn't a prerequisite for a pardon. Nixon never stood trial either.
- saalweachter 10y agoIt is not a prerequisite for a pardon, but it does serve the government's interests. Pre-emptively pardoning Snowden before he spends a day in prison sends the signal that the government isn't going to punish people for leaking, so go right ahead. Commuting Manning's sentence after seven years still leaves a pretty harsh warning for future leakers (is leaking that information worth seven years of your life?) while showing a degree of mercy to the individual (I mean, not the degree of mercy that commuting after 2 or 3 or 6 years would be...). Regardless of what you think Obama's secret inner beliefs and motivations are, I think it is reasonable to assume that as Commander in Chief and President of the United States he wants the people he entrusts with secrets to keep keeping them.
- noobermin 10y agoThis has been discussed before. A President can pardon people for crimes they may be charged with in the future.
- ceejayoz 10y agoYes, but politically, "we dropped her sentence to seven years in jail" is more tenable than "we pardoned someone who never stood trial nor served a day in jail".
- arbitrage 10y agoShe. Not they. Chelsea Manning identifies as female.
- ishields 10y agoCome on now, "They" does not imply any gender and is appropriate to describe any person
- and0 10y agoI thought the same thing but there's no way a native English speaker would use "they" in that context otherwise. It made me have to go back and see if Wikileaks in general was being referenced.
- DanBC 10y agoI'm a native English speaker. I tend to use "they", and I would have used it in that sentence. Not all native English speakers got an American English education.
- ghostly_s 10y agoIn this context, it reads as a refusal to accept usage of her preferred pronoun.
- quirkafleeg 10y agoTo be fair, I think the commenter would have just used "he" in that case.
- ishields 10y agoThat's a valid interpretation, but it's based on assumptions. Personally I didn't even notice the use of "they" vs "he" or "she" since it's not really relevant to the discussion. In fact, OP has clarified that he/she used "they" only because they were unsure if gender changes apply retroactively since at the time of the leaks, manning identified as a "he"
- TheGirondin 10y agoFuck Obama.
- and0 10y agoOff-topic but.. "they"? Manning isn't a group of people. Just say "she", it's really easy.
- khazhou 10y agoThey == people in govt with access to this info.
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- ForrestN 10y agoI don't know what Chelsea Manning's pronoun preferences are, but I have plenty of friends who prefer "they," which also happens to be the gender-neutral singular pronoun in English. For example: "Someone came by asking for me earlier? Did they give you a name?" Many people who do not identify as male or female prefer "they."
- and0 10y agoThat's a valid point, but if you don't know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history or prison sentence to know her preferred pronoun (or even read the article where it's made very clear) why even comment?
- mod 10y agoThe comment was on-topic and interesting. That's two reasons I can think of. Also, this is not a new story, so frankly it's easy to have relevant opinions on the topic while perhaps just doing a skim of the story.
- DanBC 10y agoYou've assumed the person using "they" did know enough about Chelsea Manning's recent history and chose to use they as some kind of statement. You should probably be talking the the person who called her "guy", or the person who said she was forced to change gender as a punishment, (both in this thread) rather than the person who politely used "they" because they weren't sure whether to apply she to the time she was identified as male.
- saycheese 10y ago>> "More than a million supporters of Edward Snowden have petitioned President Barack Obama to pardon him, but the former National Security Agency contractor hasn't submitted the required documents for clemency, according to the White House." Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/17/politics/snowden-no-clemency-request/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/17/politics/snowden-no-clemency-r... Forms: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/application-forms https://www.justice.gov/pardon/application-forms ____ EDIT: Appears the only way to contact Ed is by Twitter: https://twitter.com/Snowden https://twitter.com/Snowden
- iaw 10y agoI agree with the Manning pardon, I don't think Snowden deserves a pardon. Manning's motives and understanding of what she was doing is worlds different than Snowden's. Snowden sought a position to access more information for his leaks and he leaked information on valid espionage programs along side the unconstitutional ones. Let him live out his days in Russia, he paid for it with intelligence.
- gkoberger 10y agoTo play devil's advocate: Snowden took documents for a specific reason (to reveal US surveillance), and turned it over to legitimate journalists to decide what to release. Manning grabbed anything she could get her hands on, and uploaded it all to the world.
- vvpan 10y agoSo you don't think Snowden has done great enough good for US citizens for anybody to consider a pardon for him?
- iaw 10y agoSnowden should be pardoned for his work revealing domestic wiretapping program, the other programs he leaked he should do his time for.
- brilliantcode 10y ago> Ms. Manning is set to be freed on May 17 of this year, rather than in 2045. She must feel ecstatic! It's good that she will be free to live the rest of her life as the gender she feels comfortable expressing.
- brilliantcode 10y agogenuinely curious why my comment was downvoted? didn't expect to see so much transphobia on HN :/ edit: seriously who is doing all these drive by downvotes?
- jmcgough 10y agoHaving already attempted suicide twice, I don't think she would have lived through 4 years of the Trump administration. Obama literally saved her life.
- Zooper 10y agoYes, and he's also responsible for jeopardizing it for many, many years; this is not enough.
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- gargarplex 10y agoWhat will Obama do next!
- Cozumel 10y agoI think having your mind fractured and been forcibly turned into a 'woman' as a deterrent to future whistleblowers is a living hell, that's a lifetime of punishment even when he's out of jail.
- etjossem 10y agoChelsea Manning is a woman, and suffers from gender dysphoria. The Army has made quite a few mistakes in the aftermath of the leak, but "turning him into a 'woman'" is not one of them. If anything, they have no idea how to cope with someone who needs hormone replacement therapy or SRS.
- sheraz 10y agoNo. Manning is not a woman. He is biological male who has been psychologically damaged from years of solitary confinement in prison (and probably before as well). That the US government paid for his "reassignment" is a tragedy on top of a tragedy. If you thought Manning needed suicide watch in prison, he's going to need it even more on the outside. See this from NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939 Quoted from link above: > Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
- etjossem 10y agoManning has felt female since 2009 and possibly earlier. While on leave, she was incredibly comfortable with this gender identity, "trying to blend in as a bored woman looking for something interesting to do even though I was actually exhilarated." After the leaks (but before going to prison), she wrote: "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life [for leaking information], or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as [a] boy... [...] the CPU is not made for this motherboard..." The absolute worst disservice we - as random onlookers - can do to people with gender dysphoria is to deny their sense of self. Please try not to.
- cdubzzz 10y ago> “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.” What an amazingly loaded statement that is. Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating.
- RockyMcNuts 10y agoWe're friends now…Russia will hand over Snowden shortly after Trump removes sanctions…we have always been at war with Eastasia.
- ivraatiems 10y ago> Russia is just a straight up "adversary" now? Infuriating. ...in this context, when were they not an adversary?
- messick 10y agoIf the OP is in his/her mid 20's, then "during their entire lifetime". Not to be all "kids these days" about it, but millions of people read about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Empire in their World History class, instead of living through it. Just last week on HN I saw a comment to the effect of "I trust China over the US when it comes to political protest". That's the kind of thing people say when Tiananmen Square happened before they were born.
- ptaipale 10y ago> If the OP is in his/her mid 20's, then "during their entire lifetime". If they think so, then they haven't been following news too much. Russia has been invading its neighbouring countries (friendly to the USA) and organising unrest in some of them for a decade.
- nyolfen 10y agothere is no obvious reason for russia to be considered an "adversary" versus merely a competing regional power in the absence of the ideological conflict of the cold war
- wnevets 10y agoWhat exactly did Manning blow the whistle on? While Snowden exposed what he believed was illegal spying on Americans, Manning just leaked a bunch of classified information about war that he/she believed was immoral .
- egberts1 10y agoShe didn't blow any whistle, much less evoke the Whistleblower Act.
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- plugger 10y agoDid you watch Collateral Murder?
- 3131s 10y agoA good summary that goes well beyond the collateral murder video: https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning/ https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-tha...
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- LargeCompanies 10y agoHe deserves this more then the coward Snowden!
- scott_karana 10y agoCoward? He threw away a cush job, a home and relationship in Hawaii, and the ability to ever set foot in America again, for something that he did for others' benefit, and didn't stand to make any gains from. Sounds pretty brave to me, even if you disagree with his actions.
- LargeCompanies 10y agoHuh who had a better quality of life? The guy living decently and freely in Russia with tons of admiration and fans or the guy no one knows that's locked up in solitary confinement??? I think the answer is an easy one and thus fleeing was a cowards move compared to the life Manning has led.
- abiox 10y agowhat benefit would arise from being "not a coward" in this context?
- pdkl95 10y agoWith apologies to William Burroughs. (To the whistleblowers, in hope that they stay alive.) Thanks for systemic corruption and disregard for the rule of law. Thanks for the transparent lies and carefully framed talking points. Thanks for the profitable arms sales to be used against us in next year's war. Thanks for manufactured consent. "You all saw him. He had a gun." Thanks for the American dream, placing profit first until the bare greed shines through. Thanks for always shooting the messenger. Thanks for hate peddling politicians, that fear anything they don't understand. Thanks for the surveillance state and the war against privacy. Thanks for another Crypto War, while the real war criminals walk free. Thanks for presidential pardons, given only when politically convenient. Thanks for defending title and flag, betraying the oath to the Constitution. Thanks for always taking special care to make sure no good deed goes unpunished. Thank you, Pres. Obama, for finally doing the bare minimum and eventually freeing Chelsea Manning. As a long-time believer in "better late than never", my thanks really is sincere. There is still a lot of work left to do.
- gizmo385 10y agoI'm always torn on these things. Chelsea Manning did break the law. If she hadn't at least spent some time in jail, it could have potentially turned into a much larger political nightmare.
- finnh 10y ago1) Our government broke the law left & right. 2) Our government has outlawed leaks. In the context of (1) the law (2) is unjust, and thus punishment is unjust.
- enraged_camel 10y ago>>Chelsea Manning did break the law. So did the government. But no one from the government spent any time in prison (much less solitary confinement) for it.
- pizza 10y agoWhy is this no longer at the top of the front page? ~900 points in ~1 hour alone. Please, mods, some transparency?
- dang 10y agoUsers tend to flag purely political stories and moderators add downweights to them. That's part of keeping the balance on HN, which is not a primarily political site: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- dopamean 10y agoIt is a little weird to let that affect a story that is obviously of huge interest to the visitors of this site.
- dragonwriter 10y agoIt's being flagged by people who are also users of the site, and is right at the center of a category defined as likely off-topic by the site guidelines. While I certainly find it an interesting topic worth discussing, I think the rules and community moderation is working as advertised and as designed here.
- sureshn 10y agoIn the last 4 years of Obama presidency the clout America had abroad has considerably reduced. Especially after the whistle blowing incident , the ruling dispensation came across as corrupt and unethical. The bargaining power was compromised greatly because of this and the whole world now knows about spying , prism , NSA etc. A Greek philosopher Diogenes I think it was or Socrates dont remember had said this awesome quote , " Pardoning treason will lead to self destruction" . This decision seems to have a strong left liberal bias unfortunately
- jacobush 10y agoWait what? Pardoning treason is Standard Operating Procedure and I mean all the war mongers, Halliburtons and manufacturers of evidence of weapons of mass destruction... these treasons get automatic pardon, in fact no trial.
- tibbon 10y agoAny idea why he wouldn't make it effective immediately?
- aburan28 10y agoWhy with over 900 points and 339 comments is this item falling to #9 already? Mods?
- pera 10y agoFlagging probably.
- grzm 10y agoAnd it's likely tripped the "overheated discussion detector" algorithm. I don't know the details, but nearly 400 comments in 2 hours seems likely to have crossed a threshold.
- dang 10y agoI commented on this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13423073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13423073.
- donatj 10y ago> The act of clemency could be seen as a reversal, at least in part, of the Obama administration’s unprecedented criminal crackdown on leaking Little late…
- ekianjo 10y agothe white house comment about snowden is incredible. Snowden basically released evidence of wrong doing on the part of the US agencies and he is made a scapegoat while the agencies continue business as usual. Oh and tough luck he happens to be in Russia which is now on the official enemys list, while it is completely irrelevant for snowden's actions.
- Daviey 10y agoSo Assange is booking a flight to the US now? "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ caseWikiLeaks added" - wikileaks [https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713]
- lucozade 10y ago> So Assange is booking a flight to the US now? Doubt it, he'd need to persuade the US government to seek his extradition first then convince the UK government that the US has preference over the existing EAW. That's quite a lot of persuading to get done just to ensure that a tweet comes to fruition. My guess is that he'll either keep schtum or come up with a narrative about how US Government still cares enough about the Manning leak to want to extradite him. I'm glad that Obama has done this but I don't think this is great for Assange. His argument is quite a bit weaker now I think.
- Daviey 10y ago"Assange is still happy to come to the US provided all his rights are guarenteed despite White House now saying Manning was not quid-quo-pro." - https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/821753136692002816 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/821753136692002816
- iaw 10y ago> Speaker Paul D. Ryan called it “outrageous.” “President Obama now leaves in place a dangerous precedent that those who compromise our national security won’t be held accountable for their crimes,” he said in a statement. Didn't GWB pardon Karl Rove for blowing the cover of a CIA agent? I feel like I'm not making that up.
- dopamean 10y agoWhat a clown. She has been held accountable. 7 years in Florence isn't nothing. Edit: to answer your question... I don't think Rove was pardoned of anything. Libby did have his sentence commuted though.
- jotadambalakiri 10y agoI am surprised to see no 'WINNING' from Breitbart.
- Girlang 10y agoIf women want to be treated as equals, they need to be prepared to serve the same sentences a man would get for the same crime.
- intrasight 10y agoThe extensive, reasoned, considerate discussion in HN on this complex topic makes me happy and gives me hope. HN is a modern iteration of the traditional literary salon. Freedom is not free. Whistle-blowers pay a heavy price individually for the freedom of others. And Whistle-blower cases are rarely clear-cut.
- LargeCompanies 10y agoThis is great ... his life compared to Snowden has been horrid! On a different note I never bought he wants to be a woman just a PR thing to keep his name, plight and fight in the public eye. Maybe in five years or so his story will be told and we will see him as a him not a woman. *This is getting downvoted? I'm sure your now aware of fake news which is created to push agendas and or make money. Thus, I don't believe much of what I see and read and this always seemed far-fetch to me and that it was so out there at the time that it was made up by those helping him. It allowed him to fight for transgender rights and remain in the public eye ... what other way could Manning in solitary confinement have maintained his visibility in the public and coral as much help to free him? This was great PR ... from someone who has created fake news and such to benefit their start up!
- caryhartline 10y agoThere is literally no reason to believe Chelsea lied about being transgender. When you consider the current extremely negative views that the U.S military and the average Americans have against transgender people then it would be a terrible strategy to make up such a story.
- dragonwriter 10y ago> On a different note I never bought he wants to be a woman just a PR thing to keep his name, plight and fight in the public eye. Once again, the information that became public from the military through the trial was that Manning met with a gender counselor about gender dysphoria before collecting and leaking information, much less being in the public eye. This is a fact that is not in dispute. > This is getting downvoted? Yes, when you try to spin a completely unsupported fantasy that is inconsistent with the well-documented historical sequence of events to justify misgendering someone, that's not really a valuable contribution to the discussion.
- NotSammyHagar 10y agoAlso I haven't heard anyone talk about how the UN and outside observers stated that Manning was tortured during her (not sure of the right pronoun, for pre-operative) prison time before the trial. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-mannin.... That should never happen, even if you are guilty. This happened with Obama was president. I know he has a mixed record, but I have never understood his aspect of not being able to change the military-spy-industrial complex more. I don't believe he's afraid of them. I just think he has so much stuff to do, to face up to, one person can't change it all. Well, we can work toward changing it, if we elect people who want to change.
- easychewie 10y agoSerious question: if Manning thought he was a rabbit, how many people would refer to him as one?
- neotek 10y agoChanging species isn't the same thing as changing gender, and it's an insane comparison to draw.
- geff82 10y agoThis is good news. Manning committed a crime (giving away info from the government which she was thought to protect), but it does not justify destroying a life. She served well beyond enough time behind bars, too many years for my taste, so my soul says is great she is released. If now the prison time for more ordinary people could be reduced to more European-human lenghts.
- phoobot 10y agoFinally!
- dandare 10y agoI was always missing a single website dedicated to the outcome of Manning's leaks. Listing cause by cause in a clear design that can be posted as a reply to all that say what Manning did was wrong. Maybe one day I will build such website and I will start with this list: https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning/ https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-tha...
- phoobot 10y agoHow can this be so far down in the list?
- tripzilch 10y ago> “Chelsea Manning is somebody who went through the military criminal justice process, it was torture. you can give it names but it was torture. your criminal justice process involves torture. > was exposed to due process naked torture > was found guilty, was sentenced for her crimes, and she acknowledged wrongdoing,” he said. “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.” I am so disgusted right now. Why do they even pretend.