23 ms·

Total Nightmare: USB-C and Thunderbolt 3

• smilekzs 10y ago
  It is not easy to see, but we ARE on a converging path, instead of the other way around. Current high-speed off-board point-to-point data links (SATA, USB3, DisplayPort, PCIe, etc.) have converged onto some sort of 8b/10b differential signaling. We used to have totally separate OSI stacks, but now we are seeing potential to leverage the same physical layer (i.e. USB Type-C). Sure, we would have to carry different protocols, but I am optimistic --- eventually ASIC makers roll out adaptive chips (just like the cross-wire RJ45 @jws mentioned was solved by Auto MDI-X) that are smart enough to negotiate the correct protocol (MAC layer upwards) between the two sides.
  • djsumdog 10y ago
    I dunno... I've been meaning to write a post about multi-protocols on the same connector for a while. Thunderbolt can run across DisplayPort and now both can run over USB-C. M.2 NGFF sockets can run mSATA, PCIe SSDs (either in AHCI or NVME), but not every M.2 or mini-PCIe Wi-Fi card will work in every laptop because of blacklisting (wtf?) even though they both attach to the exact same PCIe bus. Some M.2 sockets are only mSATA and can't take pcie/nvme drives. I'm pretty sure any M.2 drive can attach to the mSATA controller via an mPCIe adapter, but I'm willing to be there are some board that don't support that. Why the hell are we doing multiple protocols on the same wire? It's beyond confusing. I thought with USB3.1, at least there'd be a universal cable, and I didn't realize until reading this article that the cables themselves are different per protocol! I agree with what the writer is getting at. This is really confusing and it all feels like weird questionable design decisions.
    • smilekzs 10y ago
      > the cables themselves are different per protocol I feel this is a transient rather than inherent problem of running different stacks over the same physical layer. If the physical layer can "miss pairs" then I agree we lose the whole point. One way is to have some sort of official certificate system enforced by USB.org and adopted by major manufacturers. Basically "guaranteed to support a few pre-defined subsets of protocols".
      • weinzierl 10y ago
        > If the physical layer can "miss pairs" then I agree we lose the whole point. It's not about missing pairs, Thunderbolt 3 cables are active in the sense that they contain electronics. That's why a Thunderbolt USB-C cable has much larger plugs than a regular USB-C cable.
        • smilekzs 10y ago
          Having never used Thunderbolt myself, I feel this "cable chip" is an intentionally retarded design that violates the end-to-end principle. Is there anything technical that prevents it from being absorbed into interface controller chips inside devices?
          • tmzt 10y ago
            It might be providing timing information for the SERDES based on the length of the cord. Edit: it looks like it might be that and/or an active PHY similar to 10Gbps Ethernet.
          • weinzierl 10y ago
            I'm not a Thunderbolt expert, but I think the reason is twofold. Thunderbolt was originally designed as an optical link and optical connectors are highly problematic. Misalign the fiber just a tiny bit and you have considerable losses. So they went with a hybrid design where the converter is in the plugs and the connector is electrical. Later it was changed to all electrical but the design where the connection between the two plugs and the plugs and the devices are two separate things was retained. The second reason is that this design still makes sense. With traditional designs the driver in the end device is always a compromise. For example the Ethernet driver has to be able to drive lines up to 100m long, but how many Ethernet lines are really that long? For Thunderbolt they dis-coupled the physical characteristics of the line driver from the driver in the end device. They basically move all the problems of the physical connection (line length, EMV and so on) form the end device to the cable.
    • sfoskett 10y ago
      The cables are generally backwards-compatible, but most people will buy the cheaper cables. And those won't work.
• ngoldbaum 10y ago
  Anyone have a mirror?
  • fernandotakai 10y ago
    google has one http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8O__73qyoS0J:blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-nightmare-usb-c-thunderbolt-3/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-b http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8O__73q...
  • colejohnson66 10y ago
    Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20161029155415/http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/total-nightmare-usb-c-thunderbolt-3/ http://web.archive.org/web/20161029155415/http://blog.fosket...
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    I activated W3TC and CloudFlare so it should be working now
• 0x0 10y ago
  And then there's this: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/28/macbook-pro-tb3-reduced-pci-express-bandwidth/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/28/macbook-pro-tb3-reduced-... "MacBook Pro (13-inch, Late 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth."
  • colejohnson66 10y ago
    Wasn't USB supposed to be the connector to rule them all? Now it seems we're going backwards where just because you have a connector doesn't mean it supports what you want.
    • user5994461 10y ago
      We are not going backwards. Only Apple is.
    • stormbrew 10y ago
      That was always going to be the end result of a single connector standard. Not all devices are going to support all modes of use. In the end, what's really going to dictate how this shakes out is what chipset manufacturers decide to do. And there aren't as many of those as there used to be. Most likely, eventually, all intel chipsets are going to do thunderbolt 3 over usb type-c and everyone else will follow.
      • Cyph0n 10y ago
        Exactly. Bluetooth for example is the same: there are loads of different authentication and communication schemes depending on the device used. The difference of course is that it's mainly the designer who has to worry about it.
  • cygned 10y ago
    > Things only Apple can do
  • blumentopf 10y ago
• etblg 10y ago
  I liked when we just had USB2 and all you had to do was try to plug it in once, flip it over, try to plug it in again, flip it over once more, now it plugs in, and now you're reasonably sure it'll work. And now the near-future seems to be full of dongles, shame.
  • colanderman 10y ago
    You forgot the step where you realize it's in an Ethernet jack.
    • lisper 10y ago
      At least if you tried to plug a USB cable into an ethernet jack it would be immediately obvious that it wouldn't work. In today's world the wrong cable will plug in to the wrong port just fine, and you can be scratching your head for a long time trying to figure out why it's not working. And, if you are particularly unlucky, while you are puzzling it out your device can fry. [UPDATE] Well, I stand corrected. It is actually possible to stuff a USB A connector into an ethernet socket. (You learn something new every day.) But come on, folks, telling the difference between a USB socket and an ethernet socket is really not that hard. You don't even have to look, you can do it by feel. But all these different USB-C/Thunderbolt ports are physically identical. They are literally and by design impossible to distinguish.
      • 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
        > At least if you tried to plug a USB cable into an ethernet jack it would be immediately obvious that it wouldn't work. Not necessarily. Ethernet jacks are often wide enough that a USB-A plug can be partially inserted, and it's pretty common to stack the two types of ports. If one isn't looking directly at the connector (common when dealing with the back side of a tower or docking station), it's a surprisingly easy mistake to make.
        • vacri 10y ago
          That's a problem that can be solved instantly with a visual inspection. Not necessarily the same for a protocol mismatch.
• dognotdog 10y ago
  Personally, I am rather sad to see the Magsafe connector go, and having to sacrifice IO for charging while mobile seems like quite the headscratcher. It's somewhat funny that not only will you have to carry dongles for everything for a few years time, but also make sure you carry the right USB-C cables, as your friend's might not work. Yay we have superlight laptops, but need to carry a backpack full of spaghettied cables.
  • stormbrew 10y ago
    Eventually there should be type-c charge cables that also act as usb hubs (if there aren't already). This is part of the promise of unifying charging and data into one port.
    • mfisher87 10y ago
      I have a Dell XPS13 Developer Edition that came with such a hub (they call it a dock, but you don't dock to it, you plug it in to the charge port with a USB-C cable). It has DVI, USB, Ethernet, and charges the laptop. It's a nice concept but it does not work well under linux. Most times I plug in the dock, a random port will not work.
      • compuguy 10y ago
        That wouldn't be the TB15 dock? I have one and it has issues even on windows sometimes.
    • petemill 10y ago
      The new 5k monitor sold by Apple[1] has display, charge power (back to the Macbook) and a hub for 3 extra ports all off a single cable. [1] http://www.apple.com/shop/product/HKN62LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k-display http://www.apple.com/shop/product/HKN62LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k-...
      • stormbrew 10y ago
        Right, we are definitely seeing this happening already, but I meant specifically chargers for on the go. There's no really good reason they can't also be hubs. There just aren't a lot of them yet.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• riobard 10y ago
  Worse case scenario: USB-C is gonna ruin the entire PC/Mac industry due to confusion and potential damage.
  • joeberon 10y ago
    huge overreaction
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• tw04 10y ago
  >The core issue with USB-C is confusion: Not every USB-C cable, port, device, and power supply will be compatible Not every USB-A port, device, cable, and power supply are compatible. I'm not sure I understand what his point is. That people who refuse to do research are going to occasionally run into incompatibility problems? Like they have since the dawn of the computing age? And?
  • gaius 10y ago
    The consequence of this incompatibility is damage to the host device; that's what's new. Never an issue with RS232!
    • rictic 10y ago
      As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage. If everything is in spec then the worst case is just reduced performance or the connection not working. I'd add that – IMO – if an out of spec cable causes damage, then the cable manufacturer should be held responsible. I'm sure that an out of spec USB 2 cable can cause damage as well.
      • lh7777 10y ago
        Right -- it's cables that do not comply with the USB-C spec that can cause damage. It's not as if plugging a Thunderbolt 3 device into a laptop that doesn't support Thunderbolt will damage the laptop. It just won't work.
        • notatoad 10y ago
          and trying to argue that out-of-spec cables causing damage to your computer is a deficiency in the spec makes about as much sense as saying the etherkiller demonstrates a problem with the RJ45 spec. (http://etherkiller.org/ http://etherkiller.org/)
      • gaius 10y ago
        As far as I'm aware it is only out-of-spec cables that can cause damage But see http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-regulation/apple-sues-amazon-supplier-over-fake-iphone-chargers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3133627/technology-law-...
• crudbug 10y ago
  The politics behind standard committees is horrible. Just call the new standard USB 4.0 which supports alternate mode, power delivery ...
  • joecool1029 10y ago
    4 is unlucky some places. They'd probably go to 5.0 next.
    • cpeterso 10y ago
      Tetraphobia is the practice of avoiding instances of the number 4. It is a superstition most common in East Asian nations. … The Chinese word for four sounds quite similar to the word for death in many varieties of Chinese. Similarly, the Sino-Japanese, Sino-Korean, and Sino-Vietnamese words for four sound similar or identical to death in each language. Wikipedia's "Examples of sensitivity to tetraphobia applied" section is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia
      • mcv 10y ago
        Sounds appropriate for this mess.
• jda0 10y ago
  USB3 ports and cables are (when spec compliant) easily distinguishable from USB2 due to them being blue. Why was the same not done for USB-C (black for USB3, red for Thunderbolt)?
  • usaphp 10y ago
    How is it going to help to a regular user? I doubt regular users even know what those colors are for, adding more colors just brings more complexion
    • fudged71 10y ago
      At least you (or technical support) can look up the difference. If the cables all look the same then you need to physically test the cables to know their capabilities, which is a waste of time and resources.
    • jda0 10y ago
      Colour is one of the easiest communication methods we have with 'Regular users' as they already use them as a natural key elsewhere - even things like credit/loyalty cards (Chase, Virgin) or games consoles (green vs blue vs white)
• vladimir-y 10y ago
  Thunderbolt 3 is a great thing (really), though some time is needed for the transition period.
• jda0 10y ago
  USB3 ports and cables are (when spec compliant) easily distinguishable from USB2 due to them being blue. Why was the same not done for USB-C (black for USB3, red for Thunderbolt)?
• billylo 10y ago
  USB standard bodies can borrow a page from the Ethernet port and signal standards. 10-mbps to Gbps evolution does not have to be painful for users.
  • an_account 10y ago
    But Ethernet isn't included on many laptops anymore... This rush to be "thin" has required changing the physical ports, and has contributed heavily to this issue. For a few years there will be confusion as cables/connectors/standards shake out, but it's gonna be awesome after that when we have super thin laptops that just use one connector.
    • douche 10y ago
      There is no reasonable excuse that a laptop need be so thin that it cannot accommodate an ethernet port. Oh well, I'm a late-twenties dinosaur that still expects to be able to remove batteries and pop off panels to upgrade hard disks and RAM...
      • bartvk 10y ago
        I bet it has more to do with the amount of use these ports get (i.e. less and less people using ethernet). And besides, when I get to work, I hook up my laptop to a plain old USB hub which has an ethernet connection.
        • an_account 10y ago
          Exactly, anyone sitting down at a desk would prefer to plug in one cable that include power, ethernet, keyboard, mouse, and external display. These thunderbolt cables are the dream, it's just going to take a couple years for the peripheral market to catch up (surprisingly the iPhone is included in this).
  • zdw 10y ago
    The 8P8C/RJ45 connector which was used from 10Mbps to 10Gbps might be the same end, but different speeds when different cabling grades (CAT3/5/6, etc.) were used. While most 1Gbps equipment can work in 10/100Mbps mode, most 10Gbps equipment can only downgrade to 1Gbps mode. It's actually a pretty good comparison to USB-C - lots of different modes with one physical interface and many things that don't work quite right or have significant caveats.
• jonathanberger 10y ago
  The mistake this article makes is thinking that the typical person will interact with many different USB-C ports and cables than his or her own. The reality, is that people will get to know their own ports, buy their own cables and devices, and things will work 99% of the time. Only occasionally they'll need to use a friend or coworker's device or cable and then there could be confusion. Although, even then, assuming the friend also has one of the most popular computers/phones/cables, it'll probably still work.
  • Angostura 10y ago
    Ah for a world where you never have to go and make a presentation in another office.
  • rosser 10y ago
    Are you willing to bet your computer and/or peripherals on that?
  • StillBored 10y ago
    Yah, apparently you don't have my wife/kids/in-laws/cousins/etc. Where the rules for USB chargers seems to be, plug your phone/etc into whatever charger you happen to find, and possibly take the cable/charger home when your done leaving your old crappy one.
• Kliment 10y ago
  There's actually a semi-legit reason to make a usb2-only c-c cable: because it can get away with not having the high-(super)speed differential pairs, it can be thinner, lighter and cheaper than a full-function cable. Compare to charge-only microusb cables - they are indistinguishable from real cables, but lack critical functionality. If they were easily distinguishable, this would not be nearly as much of a problem. One really major (to me at least) concern with moving from USB to thunderbolt is that thunderbolt is a PCIe connection, with the same security issues as firewire (a device can basically access all your RAM, extract keys and passwords, plant exploits etc). By bundling that into the same form factor as the (by comparison) far safer USB and hdmi/displayport we're putting users at risk.
  • rdmsr 10y ago
    Recent MacBook pros use the IOMMU for isolating PCI devices. With that, the devices can't read arbitrary ram (if Apple configures it correctly).
• ilyagr 10y ago
  Why doesn't the USB consortium standardize (and, ideally, enforce) labeling of ports and cables by capabilities? Kind of like washing instructions labels on clothes, only printed on the cable. The ports on a laptop wouldn't have to be physically labeled if the OS could display a list of their capabilities in a user-friendly manner. Or, perhaps, they should have the most important label (e.g. thunderbolt or not). Something the committee would decide.
  • hk__2 10y ago
    How would a consortium force you to print stuff on the cables you produce/sell?
    • ilyagr 10y ago
      By making it one of the conditions for licensing the specification and permission to use the USB trademark to you.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    • pantalaimon 10y ago
      Well it worked for the color of the ports up until USB3.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    Well the USB IF does have standard naming and labels for the protocols. The issue is that USB Type-C is a cable/port standard, not a protocol standard. Makers ought to label the USB Type-C port with the highest USB speed it can handle ("SuperSpeed" or "SuperSpeed+" typically) but they don't. And Apple left the Thunderbolt icon off the ports on the new MacBook Pro! So buyers have no immediate way to know if a MacBook supports USB 3.1 gen 1, 3.1 gen 2, or TB3. (hint: gen1)
• ulfw 10y ago
  It is a pity that they didn't introduce a common color coding for USB-C connector cables.
  • kevincox 10y ago
    How many color bands would you have to have one each end? The point of USB-C is that it can support many, many protocols. Labeling that is legitimately hard without a massive book.
    • ulfw 10y ago
      At least some basic coloring would be nice. Let's say (For the sake of discussion) blue for USB-C (maybe a different shade for 5 ws 10GBits if you want), a black one for a Thunderbolt 3 connection, a white one that only has charging pins (hello Macbok Air cable). Still better than the mess we have now.
• revelation 10y ago
  That's just the start of it. So the new MBP has what, four USB-C ports. Can I put power into all of them? What if I try to do 4xHDMI for all of them? Surely I can't connect four external graphics cards over Thunderbolt 3? Can I chain Thunderbolt devices? The author also missed the "audio accessory mode". That's right, in some unique star constellation, some of these USB-C pins can be repurposed for pumping out analog audio! Supported? Who knows. I think before long every USB-C accessory will have to come with some sort of EEPROM that the host reads first to figure out 1) what is this you are plugging in and 2) is this going to work. So that there is at least some user feedback instead of "plain doesn't work" or "oopsie now the port is dead".
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    Crap. I missed that. You're right.
  • ze_rat 10y ago
    They already should [0] > All USB-C to USB-C cables are considered full-featured USB Type-C cables and must be active, electronically marked cables that contain a chip with an ID function based on the configuration channel and vendor-defined messages (VDMs) from the USB Power Delivery 2.0 specification. [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Type-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Type-C
  • djrogers 10y ago
    The answers to all of the questions in your second paragraph are easily available and in most cases the answer is yes (you can do 4x HDMI if they're 4K or less on the 15", 2k on the 13" - video card limitation, not port limitation). [1] http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/ http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/
    • revelation 10y ago
      It says two displays for both, so the answer is no. I'm not sure a user is particularly interested in the video vs port distinction. Also says nothing on the four external graphic cards, but frankly the answer is probably going to be no as well. That's the principal problem here: there is now a port for things that the underlying hardware can't even offer.
• transfire 10y ago
  And here I am wishing HD-BaseT would catch on, but I don't think the people behind that (and USB-C) have any intention of actually making our lives easier -- it's just to having something new to sell :( http://hdbaset.org/ http://hdbaset.org/
• wyager 10y ago
  USB needs to go back to being "universal". The USB spec has been getting progressively more complicated over the years; it's time to cut back.
  • eyelidlessness 10y ago
    Has it ever been "universal"?
    • wyager 10y ago
      Yes, hence the name. It's quite easy to implement a USB 1 controller, and there was very little difference across implementations.
      • eyelidlessness 10y ago
        I'm reasonably certain there have always been differences in power delivery and connectors.
• __david__ 10y ago
  This strikes me as being the same situation as hdmi cabling. Anyone who has bought a 1080p tv then a 3D tv then a 4K tv then an hdr tv knows that not all hdmi cables are made equally. This is not great, but it's very far from a nightmare.
  • nicholassmith 10y ago
    I was going to post this very same thing, the upside is it'll be easier with USB-C because it'll appear in far more devices over time than HDMI.
• phamilton 10y ago
  Is the long term dongle free? C to C everywhere? My TV could have USB-C instead of HDMI ports. I could use the same cable I use for charging my phone to hook my laptop up to the TV. This solves the cable problem (every cable should support the full spec) but it doesn't quite solve the support question. Just because I have a cable that works between my phone and TV doesn't mean it will actually do anything.
  • kevincox 10y ago
    I hope so. It also solves the hub or dock problem in one go. I just get back to my desk, plug in one USB-C cable and I now have all of my devices plugged in.
    • hereonbusiness 10y ago
      There are Thunderbolt (2) hubs that allow you to do just that even now, bit pricey though. Also I don't think USB-C is the deciding factor here, it'll still have to use Tunderbolt to provide the hub functionality.
• sesutton 10y ago
  The USB 3.1 gen1 and gen2 thing still really boggles my mind. It's almost as if the USB-IF was trying to confuse people. Who retroactively renames a standard?
  • nimish 10y ago
    Yeah it's one of the stupidest choices they made. Also, the idea that not all cables must support 100W (20V, 5A) so now the cheap chinese cables are all going to report they can but will catch fire the instant they do.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    Well they did change the encoding of USB 3.0 to become USB 3.1 gen 1. But that's about it. And it's backward-compatible so it doesn't matter. Having the higher data rate be "same name gen 2" is beyond dumb.
  • pitaj 10y ago
    They should have just named things this way: USB 3.1 gen1 => USB 3.1, USB 3.1 gen2 => USB 3.2 I don't know why they would do differently.
    • Tempest1981 10y ago
      Agreed, 3 levels of versioning is too much for most users. Even 2 levels isn't ideal when dealing with a novice user. - Good: Thunderbolt 1, 2, 3 - Good: USB, USB-2, USB-3 - OK: DisplayPort 1.2, 1.3 - OK: HDMI 1.2, 1.3a, 1.4, 2.0 - Bad: USB Hi-Speed, SuperSpeed, SuperSpeed+ - Bad: USB-3.1 gen 1, USB-3.1 gen 2, ... - Bad: LEV, ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, AT-PZEV
• naner 10y ago
  The fact that certain devices cab be damaged by the wrong cable is inexcusable.
  • ominous 10y ago
    This is like complaining "mv ~ /dev/null" does what it is meant to do. I know - "Keep It Simple, Stupid" is a thing, but so is - "UNIX was not designed to stop its users from doing stupid things, as that would also stop them from doing clever things."
    • et2o 10y ago
      Disagree. This is an engineering failure. You have to look at reality; it's often not easy to tell what kind of cable you are planning to use. Any command line interaction is decidedly more involved than the typical user plugging in a cable. This type of interaction should have been planned for and mitigated. This also has nothing to do with UNIX.
      • ominous 10y ago
        It has to do with designing a system to be used by people. UNIX is a system designed to be used by people. - "Any command line interaction is decidedly more involved than the typical user plugging in a cable." Right. "The typical user plugging a cable". I expect the user to become a "typical user" after learning how to choose and use a cable, and getting acquainted with his hardware and software. One is not born a typical user, as you seem to imply (plugging a cable is not a complex task). It is. Everything is complex. Using the command line is complex, and then you factor your "typical uses" into aliases or scripts. Or maybe you curl | bash scripts from the web, and then cry when they fail / your box catches internet aids. Or you use an ipad for all the computing you do, and expect things to just work. See: a typical everyday usecase: https://github.com/alex/what-happens-when https://github.com/alex/what-happens-when Did the user write "oogle.com" instead of google, and got malware? ....Inexcusable, as you said? Should it just work? I say: "why did the user write oogle.com? Did he want malware?" Simple stuff.
• moogly 10y ago
  What happened to Thunderbolt 3 over USB 3.1 Alternate Mode?
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    It's in there.
• exabrial 10y ago
  Tim Cook is the Steve Balmer of Apple. Balmer lead Microsoft to near oblivion. Really nice to see Microsoft change into a more open company... I'm getting more and more impressed with things like the Linux subsystem. I haven't bought a Mac or an iPhone in awhile because their hardware is terrible compared to their competitors. Gimmicky features like 3d touch (haven't used it once, intentionally), unnatural scrolling, and this touch bar are things I'll probably use once or twice. Literally the only reason I stick with OSX is because it's a commercially supported Unix system with a nice user interface. What I don't understand is the "pro" in the name. Doesn't a "pro"fessional need to do things with their computer outside of a coffee shop; usable I/O, gigabit ethernet, slots for interfacing with their other professional equipment, etc. I can totally understand these features in a consumer edition laptop. But there is no longer a reason to call these "pro" laptops. The silver lining I guess is maybe Apple drives a new wave of people to desktop Linux and we can finally get a nice, modern, desktop environment. Either that or another project to get OSX running on [superior] non-Apple hardware. Anyway, just my opinions. I wonder if anyone has similar thoughts.
  • andybak 10y ago
    Rather off-topic don't you think?
    • Matachines 10y ago
      Pointless Mac vs PC debates are never off topic on internet forums :-)
  • kevincox 10y ago
    I'm not an Apple fan, but you seem pretty harsh. - 3d touch: gimmick - unnatural scrolling: I presume you mean "scroll the content" not "scroll the viewport" I thought the same but when I tried it out myself I actually adapted really quickly and now find it more natural. Either way this doesn't seem like a huge investment in anything, if you don't like it turn it off. - touch bar: I actually think this will be quite useful. It turns a row of numbered keys into a row of keys that can be matched to the application that is running. Maybe a slight downside to power users (less tactile) but I think it is a pretty reasonable feature. - gigabit ethernet: Can't you get this over USB-C? - slots for interacting... Maybe not right now but I think that soon everything will be USB-C. I don't really see any reason for another port. - maybe Apple drives a new wave of people to desktop Linux: I can only hope :) I can definitely that especially in the short term the advantages aren't clear or not significant. However I am really looking forward to the universality of USB-C and most of the other features appear to have a market so I'm not so much losing faith in Apple over all but feeling that they are moving further away from the demographic I am in.
• Matthias247 10y ago
  Very interesting article. Can here anybody maybe even explain a little bit more about the video (Displayport) alternate mode? As far as I understand now both USB3 and Thunderbolt support it, but they support it with a different Displayport standard. How will that work if I plug in a future monitor with USB-C? Will there first be some negotiation in which both devices clarify whether to use USB oder Thunderbolt. And then another one in which the alternate mode is set? Or is displayport directly available on some dedicated pins of the cable and if yes, would it be the same for both cases? Or is displayport somehow modulated/multiplexed on the remaining data stream, and in a different fashion for USB3 than for Thunderbolt?
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    "Alternate Mode" means "using the same USB Type-C pins for other protocols". That protocol can be HDMI or DisplayPort or Thunderbolt or even analog audio! The USB consortium specifies using HDMI 1.4b and DisplayPort 1.3 (and MHL 3.0) on the Type-C port. So non-Thunderbolt machines have these specs as a maximum. Thunderbolt 3 can also pass video signals, and Intel specifies different versions of the protocols: HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort 1.2. Again, these are the maximums. So if you have a USB Type-C monitor (not Thunderbolt) or a native USB Type-C to video cable, you're limited to HDMI 1.4b (1x4K at 30 Hz) but instead you might be able to use DisplayPort 1.3 (1x 4K at 120 Hz). If your video card, connector, cable, and display supports it, of course. If you have a Thunderbolt-native monitor, you might be able to do 2x DisplayPort 1.2 (4K at 75 Hz or 5K at 30 Hz) or 2x HDMI 2.0 (4K at 60 Hz and much more). If your video card, cable, and the Thunderbolt controller support it. Essentially, you can pass video directly over the port (in USB Alternate Mode) or over Thunderbolt. Then there are external video adapters that use USB or Thunderbolt data. But that's not in scope of your question.
    • Matthias247 10y ago
      Thanks for the answer. Also to fragmede. That means from USB-C I would either go to thunderbolt or directly to displayport AM. But how would it go on from Thunderbolt mode to video (displayport 1.2 version that intel specified)? Would Thunderbolt again dedicate some pins for it or is the signal somehow multiplexed into a big thunderbolt stream which carries everything?
• fragmede 10y ago
  Generally the cable hasn't mattered in consumer devices - as long as the device and cable are good and you plug it in to the right port, it'll work. A cable's a cable, after all, right? Unfortunately, that's not true, hasn't been true for a bit, and Apple's only partially to blame. DVI-A, anyone? Some of Apple's dongles have a microcontroller inside in order to do the signal conversion, so it's a wonder they're only $30. That lighting-to-3.5mm jack that comes with the iPhone 7? Tiiiiny DAC - http://www.macrumors.com/2016/09/20/lightning-earpods-teardown-confirms-dac/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/09/20/lightning-earpods-teardo... (The other option being dumb signaling with the iPhone itself doing the DAC and passing the signal, as USB-C allows with alternate mode). Past Apple's dongle madness though, the bleeding edge of technology has always had a few edges. Despite the connector at the end fitting, HDMI 1.0 cables won't work where HDMI High Speed cables are necessary (though monster cables are still a rip off). High-end 4k TVs need the proper cables or else it won't work, just like a random cable with RJ-45s on the end won't necessarily support gigabit connection speed (or even support ethernet, for that matter). If Monoprice listing all the possible variations of USB-C cables seems frustrating, and you're allergic to details, only buy the expensive Apple cables and certified Apple accessories and you'll be fine, same as it's always been. If you need to venture outside their walled garden, yeah, there are some details to know about that the article doesn't go into, but I'm quite excited for what's become known as the USB-C connector to become the global consumer connector standard. Once that's true, the fewer weird dongles we'll all need, and you'll always be able to charge your phone-that-has-usb-c (we'll see if the iPhone 8 picks up USB-C). What the author glosses over in the article is actually an interesting part of USB Type-C spec, which is Alternate Mode. This allows a device and host to negotiate to speak something other than USB on the pins, be it video, networking, or in Apple's case Thunderbolt 3. Apple's definitely gone and made things confusing with Thunderbolt 3 - for everyone else. Buying only Apple stuff is going to "just work" as long as you keep buying their newest shiniest gadget, and, well, they're in the business of selling gadgets.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    I agree that it's exciting to have a durable/flippable cable that can be used for all sorts of things. The issue is that the nomenclature is unclear, with everyone just saying "USB-C" when that can mean all sorts of things. I actually spent quite a lot of time talking about "Alternate Mode", I just didn't call it that all the way through.
• makomk 10y ago
  I think this understates the number of ways you can connect a monitor over USB-C if anything. Let's see, there's Alternate Mode DisplayPort, Alternate Mode HDMI, Alternate Mode Thunderbolt's video support, Thunderbolt to an external GPU, USB 3.0 graphics, possibly more, most or all of which can be converted to HDMI with different compatibility and performance tradeoffs.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    ...and most of which won't work with a given display. SO you have to figure out which of the dozen or so possibilities works with your monitor and computer and buy the right cable to go between them.
• jws 10y ago
  We will survive this. We survived having RJ45 jacks (which I just learned are not really RJ45 jacks, but 8P8C connectors) in walls. Is it a phone, a token ring, or an Ethernet? Cat 3, Cat 5, Cat 6? Did the installer unwrap the pairs too far? Are there crossed pairs? Does it have two pair or four (in days of old it was common to make single Cat 5 wire serve two devices since they only used two pairs)? Does it have a DC voltage supplied between some of the pairs? What voltage, what current capacity, which polarity, which pairs? What speed is the ethernet switch port? Maybe it is a VGA extender or an HDMI extender. Maybe it is a serial console. I had an office where one RJ45 went to an FM antenna above the steel roof, you really are not supposed to do that. (I have installed or used all of these conditions except for token ring.) USB has already had this problem for 16 years. When they went from USB 1.0 at 11mbps to USB 2.0 at 480mpbs they had to change the shielding. The only visible change on the connectors was a tiny + sign in the three branched USB tree molded on the end of the cable, which was apparently so useless to users that no one bothered to put them on. At least, my quick rummage of cables didn't find any. There is alleged to be a color code. The plastic inside the connector is white for 1.x, black or white for 2.0, blue for 3.0, and yellow or red for sleep/charge. My quick rummage of cables suggests this is not necessarily known to cable manufacturers. I think the ports on devices are more rigorous about this, at least, I think all my USB 3 ports are blue.
  • novaleaf 10y ago
    we survived wired home networks because they are expensive, and a superior IO solution (wifi) caught up quickly. Re usb-c: good luck not using the (only) io port on your device.
    • StillBored 10y ago
      Superior if your a laptop user sitting on the back deck. I run backups/bluray movies/etc between my NAS and assorted devices. I will assure you that my desktop PC's, which are connected via 10GbaseT have ~30x faster access to said NAS than the small business class AC WIFI AP's I use. The latency, throughput and most importantly the reliability of a decent wired network is still far superior to wifi, and I have a far cleaner/stronger wifi system than the vast majority of wifi networks I've seen. Even so, I still run wires to my home theater devices because I don't have to worry about dropouts in the middle of streaming a bluray, or more importantly the random driver/etc bugs that seem far more frequent on wifi than boring old ethernet. Plus, with the advent of reasonable speed internet accesses (thanks google!) the WiFi is frequently the bottleneck. One room away and that AC 1200 router is only actually delivering 200Mbits, or for that matter the 20 closest neighbors APs/wireless phones/airport radar/etc are messing up the spectrum.
• corndoge 10y ago
  Is it possible to make one Type-C cable that supports every possible protocol that can go over Type-C and works as long as the devices are compatible? I.e., if the two devices can talk over Type-C, then the cable will work?
  • phire 10y ago
    It might be possible. There is a bit of a problem with thunderbolt's highest speed mode (40gbit). It requires active cables which have a chip at each end of the cable.
  • lee_s 10y ago
    Yes, except for HDMI alt-mode. The problem is they tend to be expensive/stiff cables because of the need to support Thunderbolt 3. But HDMI alt-mode is a cluster anyway, because it takes over the conductors used for powering the device, so hopefully it will just go away and be replaced by the (imo) superior DisplayPort.
  • ianburrell 10y ago
    Type C cables only come in two types: USB 2.0 and 3.0/3.1. USB 2.0 cables have fewer wires and only support USB 2.0 data and power. USB 3.1 cables have all the wires (and are expensive) and support higher speeds and alternate modes. Finally, Thunderbolt 3 requires active cables for longer lengths and higher speeds. It can only do 40 Gbps with 0.5m passive cable, and 20 Gbps with 2m passive cable. Anything longer requires active Thunderbolt 3 cables.
• partycoder 10y ago
  Well, a similar situation exists with UTP cables, where cat5 offers 100 Mbps, cat5e offers 1000 Mbps, and cat6 offers 10000 Mbps. They all look exactly the same unless you go and read the label on the cable and are familiar with this.
  • jzl 10y ago
    It's even worse: getting consistent 10Gb on Cat 6 depends on cable length and electrical interference. Cat 6A and 7 also start coming into play for long cable runs and make the situation even more complicated.
    • partycoder 10y ago
      Yes, though cable crosstalk and interference is an issue with most cables. There is STP (shielded rather than unshielded), which protects against external interference.
• krylon 10y ago
  The proliferation of various ports and interfaces has been disturbing, even in the PC arena where Thunderbolt is rather hypothetical. Displays alone drive me insane these days. Twenty years ago, you had a VGA connector, and that was it. Then came DVI, which allegedly worked better with TFT panels. Then came HDMI, but there is also DisplayPort which appears to be similar, yet different. I have not seen a display or beamer that will accept DisplayPort input. Does such a thing even exist? And laptops have, of course, the "mini" version of these, so there is mini-DisplayPort (which looks suspiciously like ThunderBolt) and there is mini-HDMI (which looks suspiciously like USB-C). I am still telling myself this is a transition, and in five years everything will be USB-C. Once we are there, that sounds like a nice future, but I am not certain we'll get there in time. (Plus, a tea leaf got stuck my Galaxy Tab's USB-C port while riding the train - it took me an hour to scrape and shake everything out before that thing could be charged again. Something that never happened to me with good old USB ports for some reason, even though they were much larger.)
  • DougBTX 10y ago
    > so there is mini-DisplayPort (which looks suspiciously like ThunderBolt) You're right here, Thunderbolt 1 and 2 use the mini-DisplayPort connector, now Thunderbolt 3 uses the USB-C connector.
  • danieldk 10y ago
    I have not seen a display or beamer that will accept DisplayPort input. Both my Dell U2412m at home and whatever Fujitsu I have at work have a Displayport connector. The Dell is at least 4 or 5 years old. It's kinda handy, I plug in my MacBook 12" with a hub and HMDI-DVI cable. My wife uses a mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort to connect her Air to the same screen.
  • std_throwaway 10y ago
    > I have not seen a display or beamer that will accept DisplayPort input. Does such a thing even exist? Highend displays with display port definitively exist. I'm not sure about beamers, though.
  • douche 10y ago
• russdill 10y ago
  The article is pretty good, but this amount of hyperbole is really unforgivable: "If you’re not careful, you can neuter or even damage your devices by using the wrong cable." First of all, the linked post says that C to C cables do not have this problem at all. The issue comes about in relation to how older standards report allowable power draw via resistor configuration. This is a problem that can only occur with USB A to USB C and also USB A to USB B.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    No you can damage your devices with C-to-C cables. https://plus.google.com/u/0/+BensonLeung/posts/HakwCMmd346 https://plus.google.com/u/0/+BensonLeung/posts/HakwCMmd346
    • russdill 10y ago
      Did you actually read it? Like maybe the part with the question regarding damaging devices with c to c cables?
    • cpeterso 10y ago
      Q: Do C to C cables have the same problem? No. C to C cables do not have the same problem because they are required to be straight pass through
• gengkev 10y ago
  Back when we had different connectors for different things, we knew one thing: if it fit, it worked. But the proliferation of incompatible connectors, driven by the advancement of technology, meant that nothing fit! So we created one connector to rule them all: USB-C. Now everything fits, but nothing works.
  • mycall 10y ago
    I say establish matched color coded ends for both the cables and rings around the plug ports.
    • mattnewton 10y ago
      I think that's too subtle for many consumers and it has been hard for manufacturers to stick to that, especially when selling cords in specific shades of colors is good product differentiation.
      • lmm 10y ago
        It worked for PS/2 keyboards and mice. When Microsoft first introduced PC'97 everyone mocked it, saying that even if the computer had coloured ports you never had a coloured keyboard and mouse or vice versa - but eventually after a few years the standard became established enough. And that standard relied on some truly nasty shades of purple and green.
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    "Everything fits but nothing works" - I love that!
  • Anagmate 10y ago
    This would probably be too hard & expensive to implement, but it seems as the most user-friendly solution: create connection protocol where both ends send all possible protocols they can work with (standard codes could probably be established) and the cable would include small chip & LED diode in both connectors - when you connect two devices, it would either light up green (both ends share at least one protocol) or red (incompatible). For example, I plug one end into my phone and the other one into my sound card - it the phone doesn't support external sound cards, the cable would light up red - otherwise, it would flash green for few seconds, then turn the light off. Another (maybe more practical solution) would be to implement this in both ports, but some vendors may not comply with the specification. (in the cable, you could only buy those cables that support the negotiation protocol - it would be your choice if you decide to pay a bit more for a better cable)
• LeanderK 10y ago
  Does anybody know how the protocol/mode gets negotiated? Its unbelievable what capabilities such a small port has.
  • makomk 10y ago
    Well, that depends on the protocol being negotiated and the connectors and devices on either end, of course. Having just one or two methods of protocol negotiation would be too simple.
    • LeanderK 10y ago
      Well, i would expect that. But how is the detection done? i don't think USB was designed with an alternate mode/thunderbolt in mind. I would expect some tricky solution to play nice with legacy USB-devices, or not?
      • makomk 10y ago
        I think legacy USB 2 has dedicated pins and devices are expected to deal with all of the old legacy signalling methods in addition to the new ones.
• icinnamon 10y ago
  I'm a bit confused. The ports on the computers themselves can have different protocols- that makes sense. But the cables themselves can also support different protocols? Maybe I'm just naive, but can someone explain how a "dumb" cable supports different specs?
  • pantalaimon 10y ago
    Different grade of shielding/what kind of bandwidth you can achieve over those cables.
  • lee_s 10y ago
    They aren't dumb cables anymore is why. I'll use Thunderbolt 3 as the example because it's the most stringent. At the 40G signalling it uses the connector loss is extremely high. The maximum passive cable you can have is << 1 m before the rx will start to encounter bit-errors. This forces manufactures to put re-drivers in the ends of the cable to boost the signal, which is obviously expensive. Even just USB-C charging cables that need high-voltage have chips in each end to negotiate the correct protocol for both the devices and the cable.
  • cheiVia0 10y ago
    Specifically, different cables support different bitrates and Wattages. This is due to the number and thickness of the wires in the cable. I think Monoprices's labeling of a 5Gbps or 10Gbps USB-C to USB-C is false, however. There is nothing about the USB 3.1 Gen2 (10Gbps) spec that requires anything more than a regular USB3 cable. I think the "5Gbps" version is just an older product description from when 5Gbps was the fastest USB available.
    • sfoskett 10y ago
      Plus, as noted by lee_s2, the higher-cost/higher-protocol cables are "active" with chips in them.
• Dylan16807 10y ago
  > Thunderbolt 3 requires a special cable Apparently this isn't quite right. You can use normal passive USB 3 cables to get 40Gbps at very short lengths and 20Gbps at medium lengths. Unless they're too low quality.
• ufmace 10y ago
  I think I can answer at least one of the questions, on why make 2.0 only C cables. When I got my Nexus 5X, I bought some assorted A to C cables to go with it. I noticed that the 3.0-capable cables are awfully thick and heavy, and not so convenient to carry around with a mobile device. I bought some 2.0-only A to C cables that are much thinner, lighter, and more flexible, and use those instead. Considering that I will basically never need the extra 3.0 speed for connection to my phone, I'll take the cheaper, lighter, more flexible cable every time.
• ChuckMcM 10y ago
  And some vendors are apparently not having all ports do all things, so two USB-C ports, one can charge at high power and one can't, but from the outside they look identical, plugging into either can charge, but the low power one will take forever. While I'm a big fan of backward compatibility, I feel that at some point it is better to start fresh rather than try to wedge another solution into the same mechanical configuration. And while I get that people didn't appreciate motherboards that went ISA->PCI->AGP->PCI_e, it saved people from the frustration of plugging cards in that wouldn't work.
  • jaggederest 10y ago
    So one of the things I wonder here is, if I plug all 4 ports into chargers, will it charge faster? I know the onboard battery is current limited, but I wonder how it works in practice.
    • randall 10y ago
      Interesting! I hadn't even considered this.
    • SiVal 10y ago
      Since there will be many occasions where power is being passed in on more than one of the USB-C connectors, the new Macs are designed to take power from the ONE charger that offers the highest power (capped at some limit) and reject power from all others. So, plugging in all four will NOT charge faster than plugging in just the one offering the highest power. This is a very explicit, intentional design decision, not some hidden side effect of something else.
      • jaggederest 10y ago
        That also makes me wonder whether devices that both charge and provide power get confused. Is there a hierarchy of charging beyond simple amperes provided? Otherwise I could see plugging in a spec-max 100w portable battery and draining it prior to pulling from the wall charger.
    • 10y ago
• tbatchelli 10y ago
  A meta comment. There are many other threads lamenting that this is not a "Pro" machine, but all this cable discussion is not foreign to audio, video and IT professionals and prosumers. If you want to get the max of your pro computer's IO you will need to learn your cable specs and protocols. It does look that the future will require some rebuilding of our cabling. I have a thunderbolt hub that connects to my screen, my external thunderbolt drive, and a plethora of USB devices. I only use a single Thunderbolt port on my laptop. I like this Future. With these bandwidths I can see us connecting more interesting devices to our laptops
• todd8 10y ago
  I once had a large plastic tub, full of SCSI cables, there were around 10 kinds of connectors, in both male and female configurations and about 10 different kinds of cables. Disk drives would have one kind of connector and often computers would have a different style connector necessitating lots of A to B connection issues. And the cables were expensive, often over $100. It was an absolute mess. It seems that the USB-C connector, finally, represents a small, robust, easy to use connector that is capable of high data bandwidths. It wouldn't make anything any better to have different connectors and different cables for charging, mice, keyboards, disk drives, monitors, etc. I just hope that I'll be able to get by with a handful of different lengths of the highest end cables (e.g. the thunderbolt 3) and use them for everything.
  • jzl 10y ago
    Read the article. That's crux of the complaint -- that there isn't just one type of cable for USB-C. Heck, the USB-C power cable that comes with the the new MBPs can only do power and USB2 data. See for yourself: http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLL82AM/A/usb-c-charge-cable-2-m?fnode=8b http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLL82AM/A/usb-c-charge-cab...
    • todd8 10y ago
      Yes, maybe I wasn't clear. The USB-C connectors look like they will simplify the end points so that's an improvement. We should need fewer cables. I'm hoping that by buying the more capable cables (the Thunderbolt 3 versions) that I will be able to use them on all of my devices, even the ones that don't require Thunderbolt 3 like my 12" MB where I only use the USB-C connector for charging, USB3, and sometimes an external monitor (not at Thunderbolt 3 speed).
      • jay_kyburz 10y ago
        Yeah but, I think the point is you will never be able to do this. There is no "ultimate" USB C cable that can just do everything. You have to use the cable that ships with your device, or risk, not only getting the correct performance, but actually damaging your hardware.
• hkjayakumar 10y ago
  Here's a slightly unrelated question - What happens if you plug in 4 power cords into the new MacBooks ?
  • geerlingguy 10y ago
    In Apple's documentation, it mentioned that if you plug in multiple power sources, the MBP would choose only one at a time.
• fredfoobar42 10y ago
  This just sounds like the same whining people did when the Mac went to USB back in 1998. "You mean I need an ADAPTER for my SCSI device?!"
• chewxy 10y ago
  I was in shenzhen a couple of days ago, and faced with the prospect of having different types of USB-C cables, I bought one of each standard (thunderbolt, USB3.0 and 3.1). I now have a problem because I don't remember which colour is which. Is there a way to find out without having to break the nicely braided cables?
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    You could try them with appropriate peripherals and see if they connect at max throughput... But that's going to be very hard since there are pretty much no Thunderbolt 3 peripherals out there.
• jzl 10y ago
  Food for thought: will USB-C be the "last" standard connector? Speaking in terms of the physical connector, not the data protocol. I'm sure it will eventually prove not to be, but it's got a lot going for it and I suspect it will last for a very long time. If USB-A was the dominant connector for nearly 20 years I think C could see a run of 50 years or more. RJ45 connectors are around 40 years old and aren't going anywhere soon. I wonder what the qualities would be of a connector to replace USB-C.
  • fulldecent 10y ago
    Trust me, after everyone buys USB-C cables, Apple will find a different standard so you will need to buy new cables.
    • johncolanduoni 10y ago
      Since they're far from the only manufacturers of USB-C cables and don't own any controlling IP (like they do for Lightning for example) I doubt they will. As long as I can get compatible cables from legitimate manufacturers I don't much care what Apple charges for their versions.
  • _nedR 10y ago
    Wow, This is an interesting idea. It looks like using wires for I/O will be be outmoded in the not too distant future and who knows, maybe in 50 years they may be outmoded even for recharging. So this could truly be the last universal connector standards.
  • comex 10y ago
    Well, Lightning (which is older) is already significantly thinner than USB-C, 1.5mm rather than 2.6mm, though it has fewer pins. Looking at this visual comparison, I'm a little concerned that USB-C will start being too thick if the phone thinness war ever starts up again: http://josh-ua.co/blog/2015/3/15/usb-c-dimensions-size-comparison-with-the-lightning-port-and-usb-type-a http://josh-ua.co/blog/2015/3/15/usb-c-dimensions-size-compa... Lightning also differs in not being hollow on the male side, which, aside from reducing thickness, apparently has both advantages and disadvantages for durability.
• nashashmi 10y ago
  This makes my brain hurt: Thunderbolt 3 is really an “Alternate Mode” use of the Type-C port/cable, just like HDMI. But in practice, Thunderbolt 3 is a super-set of USB 3.1 for USB-C since no implementation of Thunderbolt 3 will be USB 2.0 only. Anybody care to explain?
  • sfoskett 10y ago
    "Alternate Mode" means "use these same pins for something other than USB". So Thunderbolt 3 uses the same connector but re-purposes the pins and wires to carry 2 or 4 PCIe 3.0 lanes rather than USB. HDMI similarly repurposes these pins to carry traditional HDMI signals. Anyone implementing Thunderbolt 3 will also be implementing the full USB 3.1 stack in the same chipset. Intel, for example. It would be silly to implement just Alternate Mode Thunderbolt and skip the USB 3.1. That's all I meant.
• karlb 10y ago
  So am I right in understanding that… (i) When my new MacBook Pro arrives, I need to learn which is the Thunderbolt port. (ii) I can simplify matters by always buying the top-spec leads. If so, how do I know which to buy?
  • taejavu 10y ago
    Answer for (i): They're all Thunderbolt.
    • kccqzy 10y ago
      But some might be slower than others. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207256 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207256
• cmurf 10y ago
  I think the nightmare is if we give up and go back to separate ports and cables for various things.
• teilo 10y ago
  What a bunch of alarmist BS. Drop all the exclamation points. No one takes you seriously if you end every damn sentence that way.
• jay_kyburz 10y ago
  What is so crazy about this is, if you can't risk just using any cable that fits in a socket, becuase you could damage your hardware, end users would be better off with a completely unique shape for every cable. This is a giant leap backwards.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • tmzt 10y ago
    Where does it say you would damage your hardware? Alt modes are negotiated with a standardized protocol as is power transfer. The defaults should be electrically compatible with all devices, though not necessarily functional.
    • jay_kyburz 10y ago
      "If you’re not careful, you can neuter or even damage your devices by using the wrong cable. Seriously: Using the wrong cable can damage your machine! This should not be possible, but there it is."
      • Niksko 10y ago
        This refers to out of spec cables, not the incorrect type of cable. As long as your cable is within spec, you wont have issues.
• bootload 10y ago
  There is a real evolutionary fight going on with connectors at the moment. > Apple's fastest growing product category. This tweet highlights the Apple problem right now [0] What is damaging to users is the cost / availability of connectors. What was the last time this connector nightmare played out? Token/Ethernet, Serial/DBX/USB? It pays to be a bit conservative in hardware choice at this moment. [0] https://twitter.com/dbreunig/status/792034409788518401 https://twitter.com/dbreunig/status/792034409788518401
• bootload 10y ago
  interesting read on the technical details of the ports b/w 13"/15" and port placement: "Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth" ~ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/28/macbook-pro-tb3-reduced-pci-express-bandwidth/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/28/macbook-pro-tb3-reduced-...
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• shurcooL 10y ago
  Such mixed feelings about this. Really nice content, but misleading title. :( I already knew all that, but I appreciate the write up for others who don't already know all those details. I'm an enthusiast and obsessed with these details of ports, protocols and cables. I predicted this a year ago [0] and I'm very happy with this outcome. Yes, it's a transition period, which is unpleasant every time, but we will be in a fantastic state in a few years. [0] https://twitter.com/shurcool/status/607351368387469312 https://twitter.com/shurcool/status/607351368387469312
• nobrains 10y ago
  Table nightmare: http://i.imgur.com/52zh3Ki.jpg http://i.imgur.com/52zh3Ki.jpg
• beedogs 10y ago
  > Although it looks exactly the same as a regular USB-C cable, you need a special Thunderbolt 3 cable to use Thunderbolt 3 devices! They're clearly putting a lot of lead in the water in Cupertino lately.
  • Tempest1981 10y ago
    Intel's headquarters are in Santa Clara. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)
• kartickv 10y ago
  Color-coding would have helped solve the cable mess, especially for users who are not tech-savvy. Imagine if USB-C were green, Thunderbolt were blue, Lightning was yellow, and DisplayPort red. If you have a rat's nest of cables behind your desk, it becomes easier to tell what's what, which makes it more manageable and less frustrating. Also easier to guide non-tech-savvy family and friends on the phone: "See the red cable? Is one end plugged into the monitor?" "Yes" "Good, now plug the other end into the laptop." is a better conversation than: "There are a dozen cables here, all alike!"
  • lathiat 10y ago
    I'm sure that would be great for everyone except Apple. Even blue ports (probably the least offensive color) are too ugly for Apple hardware :)
• kartickv 10y ago
  Is the article correct in claiming that the CABLES are backward-compatible? I have a Nexus 5x, which uses USB-C. I want to buy a cable to charge it and connect it to my computer. Would a Thunderbolt 3 cable work?
  • lmm 10y ago
    Yes - thunderbolt 3 cables are required to support the full 100W of power. It sounds like there are only really four types of USB-C cable, at least for the time being - USB2, USB3 without power, USB3 with power and thunderbolt 3.
• Animats 10y ago
  The spec [1] is a long read, but interesting. Misc. stuff that's not well known: - The 24 pin connector does not have symmetrical connections. The interface IC senses which way it is plugged in. - It's still a master/slave system, but either side can be the USB master or the power master. Those need not be the same. - Who powers whom is an interesting issue. It's up to the OS to decide. There's special support for the dead-battery case - what happens when you plug something with a dead battery into something else? Can you charge your phone from your laptop? Laptop from phone? Tablet from laptop? Phone from phone? It's complicated. - There's something called the "billboard device", which is the interface IC's mechanism for sending error messages when both ends are not in agreement about modes. The devices at each end are supposed to display this information. Hopefully they do. At least the designers thought about this. - Hubs are more restrictive. They don't pass through much more than USB mode and power. They don't pass any of the more exotic modes, like HDMI, since those are not multipoint protocols. It is supposed to be possible to pass power upstream through a hub, though. - Anything with a female USB-C connector has to talk USB-C. It is prohibited to have cables with a female USB-C on one end and some other USB connector on the the other. Male USB-C to other USB is permitted, and will provide backwards compatibility. - There are extensions defined for "proprietary charging methods" to allow higher current levels. (I wonder who wanted that?) - There's a mode called "Debug Accessory Mode". This is totally different than normal operation and requires a special cable as a security measure. (In a regular cable, pins A5 and B5 are connected together and there's only one wire in the cable for them. Debug Test devices use a cable where pins A5 and B5 have their own wires and there's a voltage difference between them.) Debug Accessory Mode, once entered, is vendor-specific. It may include JTAG low-level hardware access. Look for exploits based on this. If you find an public charger with an attached USB-C cable, worry. Always use your own cable. [1] http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/
  • SimpleMinds 10y ago
    The "usb-c female to other usb is not permitted" surprised me so I started searching why might be the reason. I've found this g+ post [1] which sheds a bit of light. It's actually good to know as I would've assumed that's ok to have this kind of connector. Probably is, if you know what you're connecting together. Btw you can buy those cable in Amazon :) [2] [1] https://plus.google.com/+BensonLeung/posts/UFCHbSDRa2o https://plus.google.com/+BensonLeung/posts/UFCHbSDRa2o [2] https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Female-Macbook-Tablet-Mobile/dp/B011NNGX9O https://www.amazon.com/USB-C-Female-Macbook-Tablet-Mobile/dp...
• tunneln 10y ago
  I love
• aq3cn 10y ago
  You know whenever there is a bad press about Apple product they start to black list those reporting websites. Blacklisted company don't get any pre-released news or products for reviews. I wonder how many websites have been blacklisted.
• bobsgame 10y ago
  It would be nice if calling things "Total Nightmare" did not become a trend. I've seen more of this negative rhetoric lately and I suspect it's influenced by Trump's speech patterns of describing everything as a "Total Disaster, Sad!" It's not a constructive way of speaking, and it's hurtful and discouraging to whatever or whomever it is criticizing. That's likely why Trump does it. How about changing the title to "USB-C adapter confusion: what can we do to improve this?"
• calinet6 10y ago
  One interesting thing is that when the port is the same for everything, the port itself (the shape, size, look and whether it matches the other thing you're looking at) ceases to be a useful interface for connecting things together physically. Instead we need other indicators, labels, and on-screen error messages to tell us those things, which is a much more indirect and less clear way of understanding connectivity. Did anyone ever stop to ask if we really wanted everything to go through one port, even if everything wasn't really inter-compatible? I think we had it pretty right before, with a mix of ports, some of which were exclusive to a purpose (like HDMI, power, audio), some of which were generic (like USB, FireWire, Thunderbolt). Now we've removed clarity for what exactly? Aesthetics? "Simplicity?" The technological advancement of a single standard? There could be good reasons, but we should be aware of the usability tradeoff.