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Caltech glassblower's retirement has scientists sighing
- HarryHirsch 10y agoIt takes ten years to train people of that skill. Not having access to a capable glassblower as a chemical researcher is an infrastructure problem that cannot be solved with any amount of money. You need a master glassblower to train the next generation, and you need capable apprentices, and it still takes ten years. Neoliberals, note that fact.
- seizethecheese 10y agoNoted. Please explain how this interesting article warrants political mudslinging.
- jakobegger 10y agoIt's a shame that a single snarky line gets a comment flagged and hidden. Here's the parent comment, in case you can't see it: --- It takes ten years to train people of that skill. Not having access to a capable glassblower as a chemical researcher is an infrastructure problem that cannot be solved with any amount of money. You need a master glassblower to train the next generation, and you need capable apprentices, and it still takes ten years. Neoliberals, note that fact. --- I think there is a point here, but it could have been worded less incendiary. If you always try to lower costs, outsource everything, buy the cheapest glass from some chinese factory, you will lose local expertise. If you outsource entry level positions now, you will lose experienced craftsmen in the future. But with some foresight, a university (or any company) can easily avoid this, by hiring apprentices early; if you give a young person a chance, they will often be loyal and stay even if, after years of training, they could now get a better paying job somewhere else.
- battlebaconxxl 10y agoThe people down voting you are the same people who mock the Brexit leave voters.
- anexprogrammer 10y agoDoesn't even read as incendiary, just a slightly snippy turn of phrase. I doubt anyone sees neoliberalism as problem free. One of the problems being an excess of short-termism.
- mikeash 10y agoI think it's entirely appropriate. The exact same point is made just as well in other comments, so it really doesn't add anything, and the offhand comment at the end spawned a flame war.
- fastbeef 10y agoWhile snarky in tone, he has a point - The Market doesn't have a spectacular track record of having foresight longer than the next quarterly report.
- seizethecheese 10y agoYours is an example of an interesting comment. Had he made an actual argument I wouldn't have called it out.
- vacri 10y agoI remember having this argument with an invisible-hand fanatic, who thought that the economics of supply and demand simply solved everything. "So... a neurologist takes 13 years to train from scratch. How does the market manage that?"
- seizethecheese 10y agoWell, to be fair the market does manage quite well! Since it's so hard to become a neurologist, there's a shortage unless the pay is so good that people are willing to forgo 13 years of their life to get there.
- venomsnake 10y agoAnd the bodies of the people that did not get their treatment (or got the wrong one, because their neurologist was overworked, tired of burning the midnight oil) pile up. Free market is good only when you have both elastic supply and demand.
- vacri 10y ago13 years is a very slow lag time. For comparison, the general public has only been aware of the internet for about 20 years.
- x0x0 10y agoIf you ignore the massive subsidization by the federal government, then the market manages just dandy. Taxpayers spend north of $15B on graduate medical education annually.
- Kenji 10y agoIf Neoliberals were in power, useless schools and education tracks wouldn't be so massively overfunded both with tax dollars and tax-funded loans, and thus people would actually have to learn a trade, something useful and something someone on the market requires, rather than, idk, gender studies. The idea that the free market creates useless people is ludicrous - given that the government is gobbling up everything that even resembles education and bastardizes it.
- tanderson92 10y ago> "If Neoliberals were in power" Neoliberals are in power.
- Kenji 10y agoI disagree. If you see the size of our governments and the amount of laws, it's absolutely mindboggling. Our laws have tens of thousands of pages and the volume of regulations and laws seem to be at an all-time high and growing. No substantial deregulation ever happened across the board in almost 100 years, possibly more. The volume of the regulation is so incredibly huge that even large and well funded companies are incapable of following them all, nor is it possible to enforce anything but an arbitrary selection. If you talk to industry leaders, CEOs and people in the business, you see that this is a real problem and a harmful practice everyone has to deal with every day.
- Ericson2314 10y agoBig regulation != Strong regulation. Seems like non-programmers don't understand this so well.
- waterfowl 10y agoNotably the Salem community college program has produced a number of the big names in "scientific" glass pipe blowing(i.e. bong moguls). I'd imagine the money is better making high end smoking apparatus than lab gear.
- seanp2k2 10y agoAs far as I'm aware, artistic glass blowing is a different field from the scientific stuff, with different training and different schools. For those unfamiliar with what's out there, the work of this person is pretty famous and sought-after http://saltglass.com http://saltglass.com
- HarryHirsch 10y agoThe schooling is different but the techniques overlap. Sally Prasch at Syracuse University (http://praschglass.com/ http://praschglass.com/) is a master in both fields. My personal experience with the bong types, though, is that the great majority is undertrained.
- sitkack 10y agoArtistic glass blowing (lampworking) absolutely overlaps with scientific glass blowing. What you are thinking of is hot glass using a kiln. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampworking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampworking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing
- WalterBright 10y agoWandering through the halls at Caltech was always fun. There was all the clutter of lab equipment that spilled out into the halls, and gas cylinders stashed everywhere. Rooms filled with equipment of inscrutable purpose, and the well-equipped machine shops. Quite a paradise for a nerd like me.
- shas3 10y agoSome chemical companies still have scientific glassblowing departments.
- GrinningFool 10y agoWhile unfortunate, Caltech had years to let the current glassblowr train a replacement - it's not like this was an unforeseeable event. While it's unfortunate that it's a struggle to find a replacement now - and from the outside I don't know what went on leading up to this - I can't help but think if they'd set the budget for it a decade ago, they wouldn't be in this situation.
- 1_listerine_pls 10y agoNow we need a massive governmental program to encourage children to become scientific glass blowers and promote tons of glass blowing courses on Udacity.
- venomsnake 10y agoI do look like a decent hobby and craft. Probably on par with knifemaking.
- lsiebert 10y agogiven that they have to craft a design for an apparatus based in part on a knowledge of chemistry so they understand the experiment, thermodynamics, as well as material science, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more complex then knifemaking.
- venomsnake 10y ago> part on a knowledge of chemistry so they understand the experiment, thermodynamics, as well as material science, etc, By coincidence proper heat treatment requires all of those too :) Depending on how deep you want to plunge.
- chongli 10y agoThe difference is that a knife isn't likely to explode, sending hot, toxic gases and acids all over the laboratory.
- KamiCrit 10y agoIt's a shame the apprenticeship culture isn't as prominent these days. Are we really fine with keeping the torch in the last generation?
- anexprogrammer 10y ago> It's a shame A shame? Quite an understatement. Sadly short-termism is the message du jour. I don't have the first idea how skills that once took a ten year apprenticeship can be sensibly preserved, or why apprenticeships have so comprehensively died. "Modern apprenticeships", or whatever your region calls them, don't provide anything near the same depth. As this article shows, even the places that actually need those rare skills cannot see far enough ahead to recruit a shadow apprentice. It's not just the niche skills that get lost, it's the problem solving abilities that went with them.
- f_allwein 10y agoIt is very much alive in Germany, and this is regularly mentioned as a reason why the economy there is doing relatively well. [0] From the German wikipedia, I see there's a school that educates glass blowers, and they have various areas of specialisation. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Apprenticeship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Apprentic... [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasbläser https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasbläser
- _delirium 10y agoEven there it's definitely not as robust as it used to be, though it's not declining as quickly as elsewhere. I'm more familiar with the Danish system, which used to be somewhat modeled after the German one, but has rapidly changed over the past 20 years. The main problem is that, of two higher-education tracks that were previously both seen as a path to a stable, well-paying job, the vocational/training and the university tracks, pay and employment rates have diverged rapidly to the point where university is now clearly seen as the better path. Lots of reasons, ranging from automation to outsourcing to immigration. In the 1970s in Denmark a skilled machinist working at a shipyard made more than a typical office worker, and had high job security. But that is no longer the case. Every shipyard in Denmark has now closed, for one thing, which led to many of the people who used to have good jobs there struggling to find new work. There are definitely still niches where the vocational path can get you a very high-paying job, but as a whole it's seen as a riskier bet than it used to be, so is getting less popular. There's also a feeling that even picking a vocational area that looks hot now is too risky, because in 10 years it might share the fate of the shipping industry. (A similar story can be told about the steel industry in the US, which was once seen as a very good career path, but now tends to serve as more of a object lesson for why not to follow the vocational-skills path.)
- tzs 10y agoI wonder how many skills like this are getting harder and harder to find as people retire? I'm reminded of an article I read about 20 years ago by James Boyk, who was Caltech's music lab director and pianist in residence, about the difficulty of finding piano technicians skilled enough to maintain pianos for concert level pianists after his long time piano technician moved away [1]. [1] http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/essay.htm http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/essay.htm
- brightball 10y agoWatch repair is another. Lots of freelance work available from jewelers because of it.
- femto 10y agoOr the case of the optician Achim Leistner [1]. He had to be brought out of retirement for the kilogram replacement project, as no-one else could feel atomic scale irregularities. His employer is no longer looking for a replacement optician, as the lab in which he worked has been closed [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Leistner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Leistner [2] http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/a-thing-of-beauty-csiro-scientists-bemoan-loss-of-worldleading-technology-20160223-gn1upg.html http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/a-thing-of-beauty-...
- aggie 10y agoFascinating. Is there an explanation for his 'atomic feeling'? Doesn't seem possible. And if it's more accurate than machine measurements, how do they determine that?
- charrisku 10y agoWhy is this guy hard to replace? There are tons of college stoners who have the skills to blow you any glass you want. Visit your local head shop if you doubt this. Why not get one of those?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- projectileboy 10y agoFunny how jobs we know nothing about are always easy or unnecessary.
- wnoise 10y agoIt's not just general glassblowing skill; it's the intersection of that skill with knowledge of the sets of uses to which it will be put, and the techniques specific to creating forms that are not just bongs and statues.
- zzz157 10y agoI've seen some pretty intricate and complex bongs.
- lightlyused 10y agoI agree, I know several glass blowers in that community and they work is at times very complex and functional (if you are into those kind of things).
- dalke 10y agoDo they work in borosilicate or in softer glasses? Can their products take a vacuum? Multiple atmospheres? Cryogenic liquids? Have they done glass/tungsten connections? Threads? Can they silver glass? What experience do they have with a glassblowing lathe? Milling using diamond tooling? CNC waterjet cutter? Ask the blowers in that community if they could make the pieces shown at http://www.ilpi.com/glassblowing/glassblowing.html http://www.ilpi.com/glassblowing/glassblowing.html . There's a reason it takes years to master scientific glassblowing. I've done a lot of programming, but I'm the wrong person to talk to if you want an operating system or mobile app.
- mmmBacon 10y agoWe had a machinist in the Physics department at my university who made incredible things. He made things that are out in space and tons of cool and very difficult hardware for laser systems and particle accelerators. He could make practically anything and was a great resource for us physics students to learn some practical things like how to use a milling machine, machinability of materials, tolerancing, and how to articulate our needs to a machinist. Sadly when he retired, I heard that they didn't replace him. I still feel like it was a huge loss for the department. I think the glassblower here is the same. Such a shame that we don't have pipelines for more people to pursue things like this.
- bitJericho 10y agoWe do, just not at "college". Now you have to go out and find them because college in the US, like many other industries, is a place for the rich to get richer.
- tjl 10y agoIn the engineering faculty at my university there's actually a machine shop with people of various specialities. If you go there you can get things made as long as you have a CAD drawing for them to work from. They'll also point out issues in the drawing if they see them. We also had a student machine shop where students could work and there was a technician on hand to give advice (and prevent you from doing something stupid).
- michaelt 10y agoHaving machinists in an engineering school makes sense from an undergraduate education perspective; for certain types of engineering, designing something with CAD and having a machinist make a prototype is a core part of the work students are being trained to do. I assume getting custom glass blown isn't a core requirement of the chemistry curriculum, or a very common thing for working chemists to be doing.
- messel 10y agoI hope that some of this type of hands on expertise develops and is shared in places like this https://synshop.org/ https://synshop.org/ (my friend Aakin who helps out there told me about it)
- nemonemo 10y agoMy undergrad university had the same issue, and the last glassblower retired 15 years ago founded a company and kept supplying the necessary equipments to the research cluster.[1] The glassblowers there seemed to think that the repair of broken glass equipments is potentially hazardous to the glassblower, and one of the founders who handled more repair requests had two cancer surgeries. It's only an anecdote, but it could be a reason why it is difficult to find a successor of this 71 year-old person. [1] https://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hankookilbo.com%2Fv%2F62ea2d5f5a404979ab473302c20be9cc https://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ha...
- lordnacho 10y agoI'm amazed that chemistry equipment is not made in some sort of factory that uses machines to spew out millions of containers? How many other things do you think are actually made by hand, where you'd think they're made by machine?
- PudgePacket 10y agoThe article says that he worked mostly on custom glass shapes with properties that were very difficult to factory produce, or had very low demand, not enough for a factory to bother with.
- lordnacho 10y agoSure, but you'd think there was some 3D printer sort of thing that could do this? I've never seen it done with glass, just plastic and metal.
- mtreis86 10y ago3d printed glass doesn't have nearly the optical clarity or strength properties of blown-annealed glass.
- VLM 10y agoNow you have three problems, not only do you need an expert on glass technology in general, and an expert on the weird glass requirements specific to the obscure specific problem, but now the unicorn employee needs to be an expert on 3d printing technology. Which for a guy who mastered glass technology probably isn't going to be very hard to figure out, but still, making it even harder to find a guy isn't going to help.
- JorgeGT 10y agoAs a researcher, sometimes you need glassware in very specific dimensions that is not available in commercial catalogs. For instance a few months ago I needed a glass pipe of a given diameter and a given angle in order to fit a machine which normally does not use glass pipes. Such combination of diameter and bend angle was not available off-the-shelf, so a glassblower needed to make a custom piece for us.
- TorKlingberg 10y agoThere is a curious effect that seems to bring together the most advanced science and technology with very old tech otherwise thought obsolete. The place where you are most likely to find floppy discs is probably a research lab, because a rare, very expensive instrument saves its data on them. Space probes use ancient CPUs like 386's as they can handle the radiation.
- onion2k 10y agoI suspect the effect at work is simply a lack of money. Those ancient technologies aren't better in any way, but developing new ones has an implicit cost that's hard to justify when the old technology still does the job, however poorly. It would be possible to use a radiation hardened CPU that's far better than a 386 but only if someone spends millions in research and testing first - no one is willing to do that when an existing variation of a 386 does the job already.
- slededit 10y agoAs feature sizes shrink it becomes much more difficult to create rad hardened integrated circuits. Modern DRAM just barely works at ground levels of background radiation, let alone what it would see in space.
- keithpeter 10y agoQuote from OA "This year, Salem Community College graduated 31 glassblowers — for years, the school graduated about 20 each year — and it expects 66 incoming students next school year. Social media videos have sparked new interest in the craft, Briening said." Perhaps a couple of apprenticeships while the experienced ones are still around? Wouldn't cost that much. I'm liking this increase in interest in craft production and manual skills - the kind that are harder to taylorise.
- tinco 10y agoExactly, they make it seem like it somehow is society that changed to not have glassblowers anymore but the reality is that it was their simple business decision. Hiring a rookie glassblower or two at maybe 50.000 a year for 5 years would have cost them perhaps half a million. And now instead of that they're going to have to 'steal' one from another university for god knows how much money and God knows for how long.
- cr555 10y agothere are a lot of good glass blowers in the weed industry. I just don't think they would leave their current job. :)
- Shivetya 10y agoConsidering the loss of old time glass factories in West Virginia and Ohio, some only have had shut down in the last decade, one or two are still about, plus the former glass blowers and artists are working independent there are ample people who could get up to speed and work glass for laboratories
- Etheryte 10y agoThe problem with laboratories is not only technique working the glass, but as the article points out, also generally knowing how the experiment might affect the glass (or vice versa). These can be very specific issues that the chemist might not think of.
- Mtinie 10y agoIs it technologically feasible to "3D print" (or "3D blow") scientific glassware? I know it's possible to use computers to design the glassware apparatus that take into account the material constraints of glass, but is there a difficulty gap in translating that into an actual machined product?
- Mtinie 10y agoI'm curious why this is being downvoted. Did I miss something fundamental in the original article that speaks to why this works or doesn't work? The intent of my question wasn't to blindly try to techsmith a solution, but rather, to understand what a traditional practitioner brings to the table vs. what can be provided via an automated process.
- ianai 10y agoCall me crazy, but something like universal basic income might make people more apt to "go for" skills and apprenticeships such as this.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- quantumhobbit 10y agoAre we at the point of being able to 3D print glassware yet? I don't know if printed would have the same strength as hand blown, but they could maybe fill in some of the gap with printed pieces.
- sitkack 10y agoSame thing happened at the University of Washington which as a world class research institution has only a single glass shop in the Physics department. A cost cutting *sshle chair (theoretician) didn't like the expenditures on experimental physics and forced the glass blower into early retirement. Chemistry doesn't even have one. This is a beautiful HD video of sealing a nixie tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_sKuQ8Fm8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_sKuQ8Fm8c Borosilicate Glass working is like throwing clay + science, with added dimensions of heat and time.
- mrexroad 10y ago"subtle science and exact art" - s. snape
- devy 10y agoDoes this mean modern apprenticeship systems fail us? If there is such a strong demand for this very niche skill set, there's gotta be financial incentives to raise journeymen to the masters.
- ARothfusz 10y agoSounds like someone needs to do a _Foxfire_ [1] series around Chemistry and Physics departments. [1] http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebooks.aspx http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebooks.aspx "With nearly 9 million copies in print, The Foxfire Book and its eleven companion volumes stand memorial to the people and the vanishing culture of the Southern Appalachian Mountains, brought to life for readers through the words of those who were born, lived their lives, and passed away there—words collected by high school students who wanted to be a part of their community and preserve their heritage." // edit: corrected link, added quote
- gravypod 10y agoCould you replace glass blowing with 3D printed ceramics with a glass doping? IT would have better thermal resistance, integrity, and be able to still stand up to corrosive chemicals due to a glass doping. The main issue is that it would not be transparent.
- zzz157 10y agoThat's a bong.