11 ms·

The volume is too damn high on flights

234 points by jaf12duke 12y ago

rottyguy 12y ago
I've always wondered why bars crank up the music so high to the extent you're yelling to convey conversation to the person next to you. One of my friends hypothesized that it was done to focus patrons on drinking and not chatter, but socializing is a big part of the bar scene... Anyone know?
- djb_hackernews 12y ago
  It's the same reason most bars are set up to be cramped spaces, it forces people to be closer together which makes people uncomfortable which makes them drink more.
  - sukilot 12y ago
    They are cramped because a lot of people want to be there. If people were uncomfortable they would stop going.
    - djb_hackernews 12y ago
      I agree it's not intuitive and obviously bars taking advantage of this trick need to actually have the foot traffic. Volume (as in volume of business) based bars are specifically designed to get more people closer together. Next time you are at one ask yourself if they are being the most efficient with the space.
- superme 12y ago
  They do it on purpose. The less patrons talk to each other the more alcohol they drink. That's why the music volume is increased as the night progresses. They get them into the establishment, customers start drinking, eventually it gets to a point where they can't hear each other so they just focus on drinking. Not all places do this, just the places that are strongly focused on the profits.
  - sukilot 12y ago
    Why would such a bar have any repeat customers? The music is loud at a bar because the people are loud because the bar is crowded. If bars wanted to sell more drinks, they would have more bartenders to reduce the wait times.
    - superme 12y ago
      There you go: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jul/19/medicalresearch.fooddrinks http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jul/19/medicalresear... It mainly happens in busy city bars/pubs, where repeat customers aren't so important.
- ashark 12y ago
  Relatedly, does anyone know why so many bars with live acts crank the volume up so high that it becomes extremely loud white noise with thumping bass under it? It really sucks if you want to hear the music, and the point at which it's ears-ringing-the-next-day and clothes-vibrating loud but you can still at least tell when a key change happens is usually well under where they set it. I love small venues, but I hate how bad the music sounds at so many of them. Does anyone actually prefer this?
  - KeytarHero 12y ago
    At small venues it's often just because the band is playing loudly. Some drummers play pretty loudly, some guitarists play amps that sound better with the volume cranked, and then singers are going to want the vocals louder in the monitors so they can actually hear themselves over the loud drums & guitar. If stage volume is loud, the sound guy is likely going to push the volume even louder, both so that he has some level of control over it, and because sound coming off the mains is going to sound a lot clearer than if you're hearing everything off the stage monitors and then reflected off the back wall (yes, even if that means things are louder, they can still be clearer).
    - ashark 12y ago
      Interesting. I find it hard to imagine that the reflected sound from the wall could be worse than the ear-against-tv-speaker-volume-at-full-tuned-to-static effect that ~2/3 of small venues I've been to end up with, but that does explain the motivation for it, at least.
      - KeytarHero 12y ago
        Well, in most cases the stage volume is already in so-loud-you-lose-clarity territory, so the clarity you gain from the sound guy turning up the mains a bit is worth the clarity you lose due to the extra volume. We're not talking massive increases in volume here.
  - grandalf 12y ago
    I have a few theories: - The people deciding already have significant hearing loss and don't realize - People who are into venue sound stuff tend to like music very very loud - The majority of customers are actually relieved not to have the burden of needing to carry on a conversation (b/c doing so is impossible). Not sure which of the above it is. A similar mystery is why it's considered OK for motorcycles to be extremely loud, even with modified mufflers designed to make them louder. I don't buy the safety argument, since the same could apply to any motor vehicle or pedestrian.
- scott_s 12y ago
  Have you ever been in a bar at closing, when they turn the music off and the lights back on? It's a stark moment: Oh, right. This is reality. I can't say that the sibling comments are wrong, but I don't think that's the real reason. Bars (clubs, really) do it because it fosters a feeling of unreality. It makes being at the bar different, and you feel different, and it's (supposed) to be special - it's a party. People show up because it does not feel like normal life. Personally, the practice drives me crazy. As I intimated above, bars that do this are really clubs at night. I prefer places where a group of people can sit around a table and actually talk over some drinks.
- dikaiosune 12y ago
  A different perspective from some of the siblings: it keeps conversations fairly localized and thus a bit private. Beyond a few feet, and even with shouting it will distort and muffle the actual contents of speech in my experience.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  My personal theory is privacy. With a crashing din of music, your voice carries about 1-2 feet, which makes it easy to ensure only the right person or people hear you talking. It allows you to be in a social setting while keeping your conversation private.
- omegant 12y ago
  A very good private party DJ(He plays for artist and actors) told me that if you want people to dance, the volume must be very high. As it was my party I told him to do it as he saw fit and indeed almost all the people (200) danced. Then one neighbour complained and he lowered the volume (just for a while ;) ) and most people stopped dancing almost immediately. When he boosted the volume again, they all jumped to dance. It was amazing. Edit: Typo. Reply to the comment below: I understand your comment, but the party was in a former s.XIX coastal battery fortress,(now an environmental Hotel). This fortress is excavated on the stone , below the ground level (You don´t see it till you are literally falling in the ditch). The place where the Party took place was 10 meters below the ground level, behind a fortress wall, a 6m high ditch and 1.5 km away from the nearest buildings, separated by rolling hills and Mediterranean woods. No, sorry but I certainly was not that worried of the volume and the neighbours.
  - leephillips 12y ago
    Glad you didn't let consideration for the rights and comfort of the people who live around you interfere with your need to party as you saw fit.
    - GrinningFool 12y ago
      You had me up until "rights". Consideration (or lack thereof) for their comfort - and just for them as individuals- yes definitely. For their rights? that's a lot less clear.
      - arrrg 12y ago
        Well, in my country people do have the right to sleep unimpeded (between 10pm and 6am). One that is regularly enforced, actually, so it’s not just on the books. Is that such an outlandish concept?
        GrinningFool 12y ago
        Interesting. Here in the States, that's usually a regulation at the municipal level if it exists at all. Even in that context, it's not defined as a right - just a law to be completed with.
- toothbrush 12y ago
  I recently saw this pop by in the news: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20080718/loud-bar-music-makes-you-drink-more http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20080718/l... -- the bottom line is either what you suggest, or that loud music intrinsically motivates drinking. The authors don't know.
  - rottyguy 12y ago
    Thanks. I get the feeling that loud music + yelling = increase in adrenaline = drinking more. I also like the privacy angle and perhaps stressed out vocal cords = more soothing drink. I figured it had to be "sales" related since socially, it made no sense (also bias the fact that I am old :-)
- DanBC 12y ago
  In England this is part of the "Vertical Drinking Establishment". You reduce the numbers of chairs and tables. That means that you fit more people in and they have to hold their drinks. Holding a drink means you drink it quicker. They turn up the volume so you chat less, which also means you drink faster.
joshuaheard 12y ago
They probably do it because no one pays attention to the announcements anymore. It's the same reason they (used to) turn up the volume on TV commercials. Has the author tried asking the flight attendants to turn the volume down?
- chadgeidel 12y ago
  The volume is not "turned up" on TV commercials. The perceived increase in volume is due to dynamic range compression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression#Broadcasting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression#Broad...
  - TillE 12y ago
    Which means the commercial is playing at maximum volume. Of course it's not physically changing the volume control on your television, but the source is as loud as it can possibly be.
xenonysf 12y ago
So when are we all starting to measure sounds around us (including cafes, vehicles, cities) and create a map of quietest things and places?
- cryptoz 12y ago
  There is work being done on crowdsourcing ambient sound: http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520606/noise-pollution-maps-crowdsourced-from-smartphone-data/ http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520606/noise-pollution-... It's a neat problem. You can turn on smartphone microphones and listen for noise levels to measure for noise pollution and law violations, etc. However, you have to develop algorithms that filter our human conversations (for this application linked above), and the privacy implications are astronomical. Edit: http://www.citylab.com/tech/2013/05/crowdsourcing-citys-quiet-corners/5597/ http://www.citylab.com/tech/2013/05/crowdsourcing-citys-quie...
  - deleted 12y ago
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    - deleted 12y ago
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  - edsykes 12y ago
    we've also developed an early version of this. Still very early stages and we aren't making use of all the data yet: http://noise.1self.co http://noise.1self.co disclosure: I'm a founder
k2enemy 12y ago
I've noticed this too. On my last few flights it has been so loud it caused physical discomfort (to me) and made my toddler cry.
- spdustin 12y ago
  It's been my assertion, as both a solo passenger and one traveling with a child, that crying babies and toddlers are the result of one of two things: 1) Kids need to be chewing something, or sucking on a nipple/bottle/straw to help facilitate inner-ear pressure changes. Most aren't, and those that can't say "my ears hurt" simply scream. 2) Kids who are tired (because they're kids or because their parents figured "I'll tire him out so he sleeps on the flight") and get startled by a scary loud voice saying things they don't understand. Like yours - probably a tuckered out toddler desperate to rest, no? (Edited to avoid sounding like I was disagreeing with parent comment)
  - k2enemy 12y ago
    Great tips for flying with kids in general. I'm pretty confident that these particular instances were due to the announcements as things instantly went from happy to crying "it hurts! loud!" with hands over ears, then back to (relatively) happy once it was over.
jaxbot 12y ago
I can second the author's conclusion. I fly regularly and have noticed in the last 6 months, PA systems have become much louder than usual on most flights. It's especially bad if you have headphones plugged in to the XM radio -- they don't seem to have separate volume controls for the PA speakers and hardwired headphones.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  Funny coincidence, I am writing this from the airport where I'm in transit. Turkish Airlines does have separate volume for PA and other in-flight purposes.
- jonnathanson 12y ago
  I've noticed it, too. Also, PA announcements, when heard over headphones, seem to be super-loud regardless of whether you adjust the volume on the headphones. It's as if there is some mandatory minimum volume for the announcements. I'll hazard a guess--and I might be completely wrong--that there is some sort of legal reason for this. Maybe there have been lawsuits in which people claimed not to have heard the in-flight announcements, and therefore, did not feel not bound to them. I dunno. It just seems as if there's a reason for this. Not necessarily a good reason, but a reason. Anyhow, this is 100% armchair speculation. It just seems like the sort of thing that could have happened.
  - beachstartup 12y ago
    legal reasons, or, they just don't give a fuck and will continue to physically hurt their customers with ultra-loud headphone announcements until it becomes so widely hated it turns into an internet meme.
binarymax 12y ago
I also use earplugs and over ear noise cancelling headphones during flights. They work very well. I rarely fly United but I've noticed that some airlines are definitely worse than others when it comes to PA. I haven't used it on flights yet but did some research and splurged on the Faber Acoustical SoundMeter (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundmeter/id287615105?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D4 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundmeter/id287615105?mt=8&...). I bought it since I live on a busy road and lots of sirens go by, adding to the general traffic whooshing. Sirens are in the high range and go over 100. Its a good app to have to check whether I'm going crazy or if it is really loud in place where I'm feeling overwhelmed with sound. I will be sure to try it out next time I fly and provide some data. Maybe we can crowdsource samples of airline loudness.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  In SF, waking around, the sirens seem so ridiculously loud. I have a hard time believing that loudness level was derived by research versus just going as high as possible without causing immediate physical damage.
nakedrobot2 12y ago
The PA when heard over the headphones (when watching a movie, etc.) is even worse - I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 100dB. Sometimes a movie has quiet audio, or quiet moments requiring you to turn up the volume a lot. More than once I have been painfully ear-raped by the flight attendant PA system in my earphones for this reason. Just another instance of outrageously bad customer service in the airline industry. I'm convinced at this point that they simply despise their entire customer base.
- helper 12y ago
  Every time I'm on a flight this happens. I would love an in-line filter for audio above a certain volume level.
  - helper 12y ago
    Not surprisingly, things like this already exist[1]. Has anyone ever tried one of these? [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Kidz-Gear-Volume-Limit-Cable/dp/B005UHGFCA http://www.amazon.com/Kidz-Gear-Volume-Limit-Cable/dp/B005UH...
- raldi 12y ago
  The trick is to use an inline volume control, like this: http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Koss-In-Line-Headphone-Volume-Control/11051681 http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Koss-In-Line-Headphone-Volume-C... Then turn the airplane's volume to max and adjust your inline volume to a comfortable level. In my experience, the announcements will then also be at a comfortable level.
  - bashinator 12y ago
    In my experience, the announcements are always in the top 95% of the channel's dynamic range. Setting the volume such that the announcements are at a reasonable level renders everything else way too quiet.
    - raldi 12y ago
SunShiranui 12y ago
I've always wanted to buy some good earplugs to protect my hearing from noisy environments (es. near public transport in the city). Does anyone have a product they recommend?
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  I get the beige "Hearos" off Amazon and they seem rather comfortable while providing a fair amount of volume reduction. They won't completely block out people being rude on flights, but they did well enough that I was able to sleep nicely for a few hours on a recent flight. They're cheap and come in packs of 20. So I stash a handful in various places so I always have some accessible. In particular I keep a few in my essential medicine bottles since I'll have those while traveling. I find I can reuse them a few times, but if they feel off or dirty the cheapness means I don't hesitate grabbing a new pair.
- binarymax 12y ago
  I always use earplugs when I fly, and honestly cheap foam earplugs work great.
- alextgordon 12y ago
  Get a case that you can put on your keyring. The best earplugs are the ones you have with you.
  - tricky 12y ago
    This is the best advice in the thread. $5 will get you 20 pairs (they're required to put the noise reduction on the package, so check that to be sure you're getting good ones) and just take them with you everywhere.
- murbard2 12y ago
  I own the "Etymotic Research ER20 ETY-Plugs", about $13 on Amazon Prime. They're much more comfortable than the cheap foam ones you can buy, they actually stay in your hear, and the tube means that you can still hear high frequencies. They reduce the surrounding volume rather than attempt to mute it. This makes them great for concerts. There are also much more expensive concert earplugs for musicians, which do an even better job at preserving the spectrum, but I'm not that picky.
pngat2x 12y ago
OSHA probably wouldn't have much to say… The peak he measured would only be outside of their guidelines if the attendants screamed for the entire LAS-SFO flight and then he hopped on a plane and immediately flew back with the same treatment. Table G-16 - Permissible Noise Exposures https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_tab...
- userbinator 12y ago
  NIOSH says 15 minutes at 100dB, which is still far longer than the combined duration of all announcements on a flight. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm I think the 99dB value the author of the article measured is not arbitrary - and was chosen specifically to meet some regulations.
  - kissickas 12y ago
    That depends on the flight. I've timed the announcements on some medium-length flights totaling upwards of 30 minutes.
- wahsd 12y ago
  I agree, there are actually very few government agencies that can be bothered to give even half a fart about anything they are essentially charged with. Between Congressional undermining and bureaucratic incompetence, they are essentially toothless. I see a lawsuit or a public shame campaign as far more effective. How does "United caused my child to have brain damage due to the loud PA system ... oh, and now he's autistic too"? That should work.
beachstartup 12y ago
a pet peeve of mine is when they do this in restaurants when calling out order numbers. they CRANK the fucking volume and then YELL into the microphone to call out order numbers when everyone is standing right at the counter!
ehosca 12y ago
there's a big difference between Peak and RMS measurements.
userbinator 12y ago
I've had the opposite experience - PA systems so quiet they're drowned out by the plane's noise. Perhaps he was sitting very close to one of the speakers. Given that the announcements are usually important, not continuous but made in short bursts, and that volume level (99dB) is discomforting but only harmful with prolonged exposure, I don't think it's too loud. The whole idea of an announcement is to get the attention of the passengers - including those who may be asleep. Missing an important announcement may have safety implications.
- sukilot 12y ago
  If the announcements were safety related they would he repeated several times and FAs would single out individuals who needed to react.
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    >> "FAs would single out individuals who needed to react" Yes, because in a real emergency (plane going down) we need the FAs spending the precious few seconds we have going up and down the cabin telling prats to take their headphones off and listen up...
    - jMyles 12y ago
      No, the FAs will go to the emergency escape rows and make sure that the passengers are ready to facilitate egress, as they agree to do when they sit in those rows.
- mikeash 12y ago
  I can't remember the last time I heard an in-flight announcement that I actually needed to hear. They're far from "usually important." 99% of flights could happily go from start to finish without a single use of the PA, if it were legal to do so, and if the airline could exercise self-control. The PA system should be reserved for actual important safety-related announcements. It's outrageous that the same system that would be used to tell you to brace for a crash is also used to repeatedly flog credit cards, duty-free sales, and other such nonsense, training everybody to ignore it.
JshWright 12y ago
I recently flew Delta (I generally stick with American/USAir) and noticed this. On several occasions I noticed folks physically cringing and plugging their ears during PA announcements.
louprado 12y ago
Preferably, limit announcements to the bare minimum and use pre-recordings. There is too much variability in voice intensity. A pre-warning chime before an announcement would reduce stress and allow time to cover our ears. It would also spare me from apologizing to passengers since I scream when I am awoken abruptly. Thanks for the data Darren.
mschip 12y ago
I used to work for a major jet engine manufacturer. Noise reduction is right up there with fuel consumption in consideration with new model development. Not because of complaining passengers though.. A lot of the push comes from certain airports that aren't far enough outside of major cities (I can't remember which ones exactly, I think it was mostly a few major asian cities). They actually restrict certain models from using their airport.
- lil_cain 12y ago
  London City, and even Heathrow have major issues with neighbours.
6stringmerc 12y ago
Having many, many years of travel experience leads me to one Occam's Razor type observation: If people would actually pay attention to a safety briefing instead of playing with their gadgets / not taking off their headphones, then the flight crew wouldn't be trying so hard to get the attention of the passengers. With this unpopular opinion, I'll see myself out the nearest exit, which is actually located behind me.
- guelo 12y ago
  Except the safety briefings are a useless bureaucratic formality. We don't need to hear them.
  - wycats 12y ago
    They're very useful for infrequent (or first-time) travelers, but pointless for frequent travelers.
  - marcosdumay 12y ago
    They may save your life. But yeah, fligh companies do not think they are important enough to bother their customers over them. They do the bare minimum required, and if you don't want to pay attention, they don't care.
  - 6stringmerc 12y ago
    ...apparently more people do need to hear them and pay attention, particularly to the part of "Always keep your safety belt fastened when seated" because I've seen plenty of news lately of violent turbulence and passengers being thrown around because they didn't pay attention and follow the instructions they are legally obligated to follow...which is why no personal injury lawsuit regarding unintended turbulence for an un-buckled in passenger will ever win, near as I can tell.
- sukilot 12y ago
  Occam's (and Halon's) razor says that volume is set to an arbitrary default ("loud " == "audible") and no one cares to change it. It boggles that any other option is in consideration. In airline has done actual measurements of attention vs volume.
nate_meurer 12y ago
My comment from another thread on this subject: --- Earplugs! I bought a box of foam earplugs that has supplied me for years now. I cut them in half; half an earplug is the perfect length for unobtrusive everyday wear. I have quantities of half-earplugs stashed in all my pants pockets, in my car, my work bag, and in a little container on my keychain. I wear them in the car, on planes, at the shooting range, when grinding coffee, and especially when putting away dishes. Fucking clanging-together dishes are the loudest things I encounter in my regular routine. For my kids I bought silicone putty plugs. They work perfectly for little ears, and I keep them with the foam plugs. My kids know where the big orange jar of earplugs is, and they've acquired some of my discipline.
- azth 12y ago
  > I wear them in the car Hopefully not while driving though :)
  - batbomb 12y ago
    Deaf people would disagree
    - ohazi 12y ago
      Deaf people may be able to drive, but wearing earplugs while driving is still illegal (in California, anyway).
  - Dylan16807 12y ago
    Why not? Attenuating all sound doesn't have a huge impact on what you're able to hear.
    - ctdonath 12y ago
      Indeed; to the contrary, I find myself hyper-aware of sounds when wearing attenuative hearing protection.
    - colin_mccabe 12y ago
Alupis 12y ago
Few thoughts: > and opened the decibel meter on my iPhone These are notoriously inaccurate. To get accurate decibel readings, the mic must be calibrated to absolute known levels (something your App can't do). The App's are basically just comparing relative sounds (this sound is more prominent than this other one, and therefore must be louder... after establishing some relative baseline). Real decibel measuring equipment is very expensive and requires re-calibration routinely. So, measuring 80db could easily be in a swing of +/- 10db's (or more). > 150dB: Jet take-off at 25 meters (eardrum rupture) That's not quite accurate. Long term exposure could lead to damage over time, but for comparison a shotgun is typically measured at 165db when it's up against your shoulder and face. Yes, you wear hearing protection (nick-named "ears" if you are a frequent shooter) but your eardrumps aren't rupturing immediately if you take them off. > What shocked me was the volume of the PA system Yes, it's loud -- by design. The PA system is not there just to provide something to listen to in case you are bored. In a best case scenario, it's there for the usual "buckle-up" talk and for the pilot to give a greeting. In the worst case scenario, it's there for emergency instructions (a time when panic and passenger noises are likely to get quite loud on their own).
- edsykes 12y ago
  definitely true on the inaccuracy. however, in the absence of anything else it is an indication.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    The only thing it's an indication of is the App feels the PA is louder than the other ambient noise in the cabin... which in order to be an effective PA, it must be. The number it assigns it might as well of been made up... or put on some App-specific scale like 1-10, 10 being "we think this is really loud".
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- city41 12y ago
  I often take issue with the "pilot greeting". Many pilots just ramble on and on. Often on and off throughout the entire flight. I really don't care nor do I want that blaring in my ears. I don't understand why airlines think this is a good idea.
uptown 12y ago
Sort of off-topic, but maybe somebody commenting on audio acoustics and decibels will know -- When you call a business and they pipe their automated music into the call while you're on-hold, why is the audio quality of that music frequently horrible? You'll get fuzzy music, or drop-outs of the music track - but when a human picks up the phone, it tends to sound just like most other phone calls. It seems like such a basic solvable problem, but I don't know where to attribute the blame.
- userbinator 12y ago
  Music is basically never going to sound good over a POTS because it's a low-bandwidth channel optimised for human voice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceband http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceband It may also be a legacy system using old worn-out looping casette tapes for the music.
  - yourcelf 12y ago
    It's even worse if the sound is going through a digital (VOIP / cell phone) system. Most modern codecs for voice are using some form of Linear Predictive Coding[1] (e.g. ACELPC) which is basically modeling sound as a resonator at the bottom of a tube with a filter bank (sortof like your voice box). With voice, this is a reasonably good approximation, and the codecs are aggressively tuned to be efficient at that. But if full-band music gets piped through it will sound roughly like that music is being produced by a flapping plosive at the bottom of a long tube. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding
    - spdustin 12y ago
      "Flapping plosive at the bottom of a long tube." What an exceptionally colorful description of the effects of that type of codec! Well done. I wonder if there are applications for psychoacoustic modeling approaches for safety/compulsory announcements. Can they be encoded in a different way before broadcast on the PA to take advantage of our perception of human speech? And possible a different codec still for users of headphones? Or perhaps a quick, sharp attention tone before urgent broadcasts, but for non safety/compulsory announcements, a lower volume setting...
suvelx 12y ago
Recently spent over 48 hours in the wonderful company of Cathay Pacific. Their announcements (and especially their English announcements) are always a quiet high-speed mumble. 10/10 would (try to) listen to them again. Everything else was terrible.
Zigurd 12y ago
I have for a long time used unobtrusive IEMs with Comply tips (MEElectronics, small, black, with a memory wire that guides the headphone wires over and behind the ears). They shut out the world very effectively, and are cheap enough that it's not a tragedy to lose them. I have never had a flight attendant bug me about them. United is particularly bad about cranking their PA system up into distortion screeching range. It's pure sadism.
dothething 12y ago
Hacker News on Friday is always the worst.
lfam 12y ago
This is a pet peeve of mine that I developed while doing video production in the live event industry. Unfortunately almost nobody cares about protecting their hearing. Pretty much everyone in food service in the US exposes themselves to dangerous audio levels throughout their work shifts. My coworkers with SPL meters routinely measured sound pressure levels above 105 dB for hours at a time. But try wearing earplugs as a waiter or bartender... you will be treated like a lunatic.
- zippergz 12y ago
  You say "in the US." Does that mean you've found other countries to be significantly quieter? I don't think I have, but I'm genuinely curious about this. Have there been any studies on the average sound levels in public places (or workplaces) in different countries?
- specialist 12y ago
  As a father and fan of live music: I get cranky when I see kids without ear protection, especially toddlers and younger, who have no control or way to escape. I make a point of praising the parents who put ear muffs on their infants.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    Why make the music so loud as to require hearing protection? That seems inefficient.
    - npizzolato 12y ago
      Because you don't have control over how loud a band is playing at a live festival. So you can either complain about something you can't change, decide to not attend an event you want to attend, or do what you can to fix the problem.
    - bashinator 12y ago
      Because the experience of being physically vibrated by the compression waves in the air is amazingly sublime. There's a reason people don't start dancing until you hit a certain volume level. I wear musician-quality earplugs.
grandalf 12y ago
I've experienced airline PA announcements to exceed the pain threshold many times. It's utterly ridiculous how loud they are. In my opinion, the less that is broadcast over the PA the better.
ufmace 12y ago
I could believe it. I just flew Spirit (never again, for reasons in addition to this) a couple of weeks ago, and they spent the last 20 minutes or so of the flight hawking some kind of credit card deal. Even wearing earplugs barely put a dent in the volume.
- aembleton 12y ago
  ah, that sounds like Ryanair.
- spdustin 12y ago
  I've not experienced this at all, but I routinely fly American or United (or their international "alliance" partners). My next flight is on Southwest. I wonder how different that'll be - boarding procedures don't generally bug me (we're all going to the same place in a giant airborne metal tube), but crew behavior has the power to wreck the experience for me.
  - ufmace 12y ago
    I haven't seen it on any other airline either. I think it's only on the "discount" airlines, where you can get a slightly cheaper flight... as long as you buy your baggage check and check in in the right way and don't expect to actually eat or drink anything on board.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
I think the author answered their own question with this statement: "I’ve been on flights where the sound of the flight attendants over the PA system was loud enough to sound like the attendant was shouting directly into my ear despite having two layers of sound protection." The PA system in the airplane is part of the safety equipment, the crew uses it to inform the passengers during an emergency what they should do to prepare. Everyone knows that during a flight people will have noise cancelling earphones on and possibly dual layers of protection. Also the ambient noise in an aircraft with its nose pitched down at a steep angle or in an uncontrolled spin is likely to be quite high. The PA has to cut through all of that in order to communicate with you. I agree it would be nice if they didn't use full emergency power during non-essential communication, but the FAA considers the safety briefing to be essential communication so you are out of luck there.
thanatosmin 12y ago
This is exacerbated by the absolutely intrusive use of the PA system--rather than just for safety announcements we now have the pleasure of enduring credit card and frequent flier program ads.
quinndupont 12y ago
To take the edge off the sound (but only slightly... still able to carry on a conversation) and to prevent my ear drum from exploding I wear Ear Planes[1]. They aren't perfect, but I do find they help, say, maybe 40% of the pressure issue. 1] http://www.cirrushealthcare.com/EarPlanes-Adult-P49.aspx http://www.cirrushealthcare.com/EarPlanes-Adult-P49.aspx
mixmastamyk 12y ago
I use a pair of sony extra-bass earbuds that are thicker and have a bit of extra foam around the earbud to reduce noise. The work great in the airplane, knocking off about 50% of the outside volume. I leave them in the whole flight as they cut out most of the engine vibration as well. Also wear them in a crowded office, at home with kids, or coffee shop etc when I need to focus. Most of the time I'm not even playing music, but people assume so and will interrupt you a bit less often. Also helpful when making calls, etc.
shutupalready22 12y ago
I think the correct response when the PA system is used at excessive volume is to scream loudly asking that it be turned down. When this becomes a socially acceptable (or simply common) response, airlines will have to stop.

234 points by jaf12duke 12y ago

I've always wondered why bars crank up the music so high to the extent you're yelling to convey conversation to the person next to you. One of my friends hypothesized that it was done to focus patrons on drinking and not chatter, but socializing is a big part of the bar scene... Anyone know?

djb_hackernews 12y ago
It's the same reason most bars are set up to be cramped spaces, it forces people to be closer together which makes people uncomfortable which makes them drink more.
- sukilot 12y ago
  They are cramped because a lot of people want to be there. If people were uncomfortable they would stop going.
  - djb_hackernews 12y ago
    I agree it's not intuitive and obviously bars taking advantage of this trick need to actually have the foot traffic. Volume (as in volume of business) based bars are specifically designed to get more people closer together. Next time you are at one ask yourself if they are being the most efficient with the space.
superme 12y ago
They do it on purpose. The less patrons talk to each other the more alcohol they drink. That's why the music volume is increased as the night progresses. They get them into the establishment, customers start drinking, eventually it gets to a point where they can't hear each other so they just focus on drinking. Not all places do this, just the places that are strongly focused on the profits.
- sukilot 12y ago
  Why would such a bar have any repeat customers? The music is loud at a bar because the people are loud because the bar is crowded. If bars wanted to sell more drinks, they would have more bartenders to reduce the wait times.
  - superme 12y ago
    There you go: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jul/19/medicalresearch.fooddrinks http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/jul/19/medicalresear... It mainly happens in busy city bars/pubs, where repeat customers aren't so important.
ashark 12y ago
Relatedly, does anyone know why so many bars with live acts crank the volume up so high that it becomes extremely loud white noise with thumping bass under it? It really sucks if you want to hear the music, and the point at which it's ears-ringing-the-next-day and clothes-vibrating loud but you can still at least tell when a key change happens is usually well under where they set it. I love small venues, but I hate how bad the music sounds at so many of them. Does anyone actually prefer this?
- KeytarHero 12y ago
  At small venues it's often just because the band is playing loudly. Some drummers play pretty loudly, some guitarists play amps that sound better with the volume cranked, and then singers are going to want the vocals louder in the monitors so they can actually hear themselves over the loud drums & guitar. If stage volume is loud, the sound guy is likely going to push the volume even louder, both so that he has some level of control over it, and because sound coming off the mains is going to sound a lot clearer than if you're hearing everything off the stage monitors and then reflected off the back wall (yes, even if that means things are louder, they can still be clearer).
  - ashark 12y ago
    Interesting. I find it hard to imagine that the reflected sound from the wall could be worse than the ear-against-tv-speaker-volume-at-full-tuned-to-static effect that ~2/3 of small venues I've been to end up with, but that does explain the motivation for it, at least.
    - KeytarHero 12y ago
      Well, in most cases the stage volume is already in so-loud-you-lose-clarity territory, so the clarity you gain from the sound guy turning up the mains a bit is worth the clarity you lose due to the extra volume. We're not talking massive increases in volume here.
- grandalf 12y ago
  I have a few theories: - The people deciding already have significant hearing loss and don't realize - People who are into venue sound stuff tend to like music very very loud - The majority of customers are actually relieved not to have the burden of needing to carry on a conversation (b/c doing so is impossible). Not sure which of the above it is. A similar mystery is why it's considered OK for motorcycles to be extremely loud, even with modified mufflers designed to make them louder. I don't buy the safety argument, since the same could apply to any motor vehicle or pedestrian.
scott_s 12y ago
Have you ever been in a bar at closing, when they turn the music off and the lights back on? It's a stark moment: Oh, right. This is reality. I can't say that the sibling comments are wrong, but I don't think that's the real reason. Bars (clubs, really) do it because it fosters a feeling of unreality. It makes being at the bar different, and you feel different, and it's (supposed) to be special - it's a party. People show up because it does not feel like normal life. Personally, the practice drives me crazy. As I intimated above, bars that do this are really clubs at night. I prefer places where a group of people can sit around a table and actually talk over some drinks.
dikaiosune 12y ago
A different perspective from some of the siblings: it keeps conversations fairly localized and thus a bit private. Beyond a few feet, and even with shouting it will distort and muffle the actual contents of speech in my experience.
sliverstorm 12y ago
My personal theory is privacy. With a crashing din of music, your voice carries about 1-2 feet, which makes it easy to ensure only the right person or people hear you talking. It allows you to be in a social setting while keeping your conversation private.
omegant 12y ago
A very good private party DJ(He plays for artist and actors) told me that if you want people to dance, the volume must be very high. As it was my party I told him to do it as he saw fit and indeed almost all the people (200) danced. Then one neighbour complained and he lowered the volume (just for a while ;) ) and most people stopped dancing almost immediately. When he boosted the volume again, they all jumped to dance. It was amazing. Edit: Typo. Reply to the comment below: I understand your comment, but the party was in a former s.XIX coastal battery fortress,(now an environmental Hotel). This fortress is excavated on the stone , below the ground level (You don´t see it till you are literally falling in the ditch). The place where the Party took place was 10 meters below the ground level, behind a fortress wall, a 6m high ditch and 1.5 km away from the nearest buildings, separated by rolling hills and Mediterranean woods. No, sorry but I certainly was not that worried of the volume and the neighbours.
- leephillips 12y ago
  Glad you didn't let consideration for the rights and comfort of the people who live around you interfere with your need to party as you saw fit.
  - GrinningFool 12y ago
    You had me up until "rights". Consideration (or lack thereof) for their comfort - and just for them as individuals- yes definitely. For their rights? that's a lot less clear.
    - arrrg 12y ago
      Well, in my country people do have the right to sleep unimpeded (between 10pm and 6am). One that is regularly enforced, actually, so it’s not just on the books. Is that such an outlandish concept?
      - GrinningFool 12y ago
        Interesting. Here in the States, that's usually a regulation at the municipal level if it exists at all. Even in that context, it's not defined as a right - just a law to be completed with.
toothbrush 12y ago
I recently saw this pop by in the news: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20080718/loud-bar-music-makes-you-drink-more http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20080718/l... -- the bottom line is either what you suggest, or that loud music intrinsically motivates drinking. The authors don't know.
- rottyguy 12y ago
  Thanks. I get the feeling that loud music + yelling = increase in adrenaline = drinking more. I also like the privacy angle and perhaps stressed out vocal cords = more soothing drink. I figured it had to be "sales" related since socially, it made no sense (also bias the fact that I am old :-)
DanBC 12y ago
In England this is part of the "Vertical Drinking Establishment". You reduce the numbers of chairs and tables. That means that you fit more people in and they have to hold their drinks. Holding a drink means you drink it quicker. They turn up the volume so you chat less, which also means you drink faster.

joshuaheard 12y ago

They probably do it because no one pays attention to the announcements anymore. It's the same reason they (used to) turn up the volume on TV commercials. Has the author tried asking the flight attendants to turn the volume down?

chadgeidel 12y ago
The volume is not "turned up" on TV commercials. The perceived increase in volume is due to dynamic range compression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression#Broadcasting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression#Broad...
- TillE 12y ago
  Which means the commercial is playing at maximum volume. Of course it's not physically changing the volume control on your television, but the source is as loud as it can possibly be.

xenonysf 12y ago

So when are we all starting to measure sounds around us (including cafes, vehicles, cities) and create a map of quietest things and places?

cryptoz 12y ago
There is work being done on crowdsourcing ambient sound: http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520606/noise-pollution-maps-crowdsourced-from-smartphone-data/ http://www.technologyreview.com/view/520606/noise-pollution-... It's a neat problem. You can turn on smartphone microphones and listen for noise levels to measure for noise pollution and law violations, etc. However, you have to develop algorithms that filter our human conversations (for this application linked above), and the privacy implications are astronomical. Edit: http://www.citylab.com/tech/2013/05/crowdsourcing-citys-quiet-corners/5597/ http://www.citylab.com/tech/2013/05/crowdsourcing-citys-quie...
- deleted 12y ago
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  - deleted 12y ago
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- edsykes 12y ago
  we've also developed an early version of this. Still very early stages and we aren't making use of all the data yet: http://noise.1self.co http://noise.1self.co disclosure: I'm a founder

k2enemy 12y ago

I've noticed this too. On my last few flights it has been so loud it caused physical discomfort (to me) and made my toddler cry.

spdustin 12y ago
It's been my assertion, as both a solo passenger and one traveling with a child, that crying babies and toddlers are the result of one of two things: 1) Kids need to be chewing something, or sucking on a nipple/bottle/straw to help facilitate inner-ear pressure changes. Most aren't, and those that can't say "my ears hurt" simply scream. 2) Kids who are tired (because they're kids or because their parents figured "I'll tire him out so he sleeps on the flight") and get startled by a scary loud voice saying things they don't understand. Like yours - probably a tuckered out toddler desperate to rest, no? (Edited to avoid sounding like I was disagreeing with parent comment)
- k2enemy 12y ago
  Great tips for flying with kids in general. I'm pretty confident that these particular instances were due to the announcements as things instantly went from happy to crying "it hurts! loud!" with hands over ears, then back to (relatively) happy once it was over.

jaxbot 12y ago

I can second the author's conclusion. I fly regularly and have noticed in the last 6 months, PA systems have become much louder than usual on most flights. It's especially bad if you have headphones plugged in to the XM radio -- they don't seem to have separate volume controls for the PA speakers and hardwired headphones.

scrollaway 12y ago
Funny coincidence, I am writing this from the airport where I'm in transit. Turkish Airlines does have separate volume for PA and other in-flight purposes.
jonnathanson 12y ago
I've noticed it, too. Also, PA announcements, when heard over headphones, seem to be super-loud regardless of whether you adjust the volume on the headphones. It's as if there is some mandatory minimum volume for the announcements. I'll hazard a guess--and I might be completely wrong--that there is some sort of legal reason for this. Maybe there have been lawsuits in which people claimed not to have heard the in-flight announcements, and therefore, did not feel not bound to them. I dunno. It just seems as if there's a reason for this. Not necessarily a good reason, but a reason. Anyhow, this is 100% armchair speculation. It just seems like the sort of thing that could have happened.
- beachstartup 12y ago
  legal reasons, or, they just don't give a fuck and will continue to physically hurt their customers with ultra-loud headphone announcements until it becomes so widely hated it turns into an internet meme.

binarymax 12y ago

I also use earplugs and over ear noise cancelling headphones during flights. They work very well. I rarely fly United but I've noticed that some airlines are definitely worse than others when it comes to PA. I haven't used it on flights yet but did some research and splurged on the Faber Acoustical SoundMeter (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundmeter/id287615105?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D4 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundmeter/id287615105?mt=8&...). I bought it since I live on a busy road and lots of sirens go by, adding to the general traffic whooshing. Sirens are in the high range and go over 100. Its a good app to have to check whether I'm going crazy or if it is really loud in place where I'm feeling overwhelmed with sound. I will be sure to try it out next time I fly and provide some data. Maybe we can crowdsource samples of airline loudness.

MichaelGG 12y ago
In SF, waking around, the sirens seem so ridiculously loud. I have a hard time believing that loudness level was derived by research versus just going as high as possible without causing immediate physical damage.

nakedrobot2 12y ago

The PA when heard over the headphones (when watching a movie, etc.) is even worse - I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 100dB. Sometimes a movie has quiet audio, or quiet moments requiring you to turn up the volume a lot. More than once I have been painfully ear-raped by the flight attendant PA system in my earphones for this reason. Just another instance of outrageously bad customer service in the airline industry. I'm convinced at this point that they simply despise their entire customer base.

helper 12y ago
Every time I'm on a flight this happens. I would love an in-line filter for audio above a certain volume level.
- helper 12y ago
  Not surprisingly, things like this already exist[1]. Has anyone ever tried one of these? [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Kidz-Gear-Volume-Limit-Cable/dp/B005UHGFCA http://www.amazon.com/Kidz-Gear-Volume-Limit-Cable/dp/B005UH...
raldi 12y ago
The trick is to use an inline volume control, like this: http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Koss-In-Line-Headphone-Volume-Control/11051681 http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Koss-In-Line-Headphone-Volume-C... Then turn the airplane's volume to max and adjust your inline volume to a comfortable level. In my experience, the announcements will then also be at a comfortable level.
- bashinator 12y ago
  In my experience, the announcements are always in the top 95% of the channel's dynamic range. Setting the volume such that the announcements are at a reasonable level renders everything else way too quiet.
  - raldi 12y ago

SunShiranui 12y ago

I've always wanted to buy some good earplugs to protect my hearing from noisy environments (es. near public transport in the city). Does anyone have a product they recommend?

MichaelGG 12y ago
I get the beige "Hearos" off Amazon and they seem rather comfortable while providing a fair amount of volume reduction. They won't completely block out people being rude on flights, but they did well enough that I was able to sleep nicely for a few hours on a recent flight. They're cheap and come in packs of 20. So I stash a handful in various places so I always have some accessible. In particular I keep a few in my essential medicine bottles since I'll have those while traveling. I find I can reuse them a few times, but if they feel off or dirty the cheapness means I don't hesitate grabbing a new pair.
binarymax 12y ago
I always use earplugs when I fly, and honestly cheap foam earplugs work great.
alextgordon 12y ago
Get a case that you can put on your keyring. The best earplugs are the ones you have with you.
- tricky 12y ago
  This is the best advice in the thread. $5 will get you 20 pairs (they're required to put the noise reduction on the package, so check that to be sure you're getting good ones) and just take them with you everywhere.
murbard2 12y ago
I own the "Etymotic Research ER20 ETY-Plugs", about $13 on Amazon Prime. They're much more comfortable than the cheap foam ones you can buy, they actually stay in your hear, and the tube means that you can still hear high frequencies. They reduce the surrounding volume rather than attempt to mute it. This makes them great for concerts. There are also much more expensive concert earplugs for musicians, which do an even better job at preserving the spectrum, but I'm not that picky.

pngat2x 12y ago

OSHA probably wouldn't have much to say… The peak he measured would only be outside of their guidelines if the attendants screamed for the entire LAS-SFO flight and then he hopped on a plane and immediately flew back with the same treatment. Table G-16 - Permissible Noise Exposures https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_tab...

userbinator 12y ago
NIOSH says 15 minutes at 100dB, which is still far longer than the combined duration of all announcements on a flight. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm I think the 99dB value the author of the article measured is not arbitrary - and was chosen specifically to meet some regulations.
- kissickas 12y ago
  That depends on the flight. I've timed the announcements on some medium-length flights totaling upwards of 30 minutes.
wahsd 12y ago
I agree, there are actually very few government agencies that can be bothered to give even half a fart about anything they are essentially charged with. Between Congressional undermining and bureaucratic incompetence, they are essentially toothless. I see a lawsuit or a public shame campaign as far more effective. How does "United caused my child to have brain damage due to the loud PA system ... oh, and now he's autistic too"? That should work.

beachstartup 12y ago

a pet peeve of mine is when they do this in restaurants when calling out order numbers. they CRANK the fucking volume and then YELL into the microphone to call out order numbers when everyone is standing right at the counter!

ehosca 12y ago

there's a big difference between Peak and RMS measurements.

userbinator 12y ago

I've had the opposite experience - PA systems so quiet they're drowned out by the plane's noise. Perhaps he was sitting very close to one of the speakers. Given that the announcements are usually important, not continuous but made in short bursts, and that volume level (99dB) is discomforting but only harmful with prolonged exposure, I don't think it's too loud. The whole idea of an announcement is to get the attention of the passengers - including those who may be asleep. Missing an important announcement may have safety implications.

sukilot 12y ago
If the announcements were safety related they would he repeated several times and FAs would single out individuals who needed to react.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  >> "FAs would single out individuals who needed to react" Yes, because in a real emergency (plane going down) we need the FAs spending the precious few seconds we have going up and down the cabin telling prats to take their headphones off and listen up...
  - jMyles 12y ago
    No, the FAs will go to the emergency escape rows and make sure that the passengers are ready to facilitate egress, as they agree to do when they sit in those rows.
mikeash 12y ago
I can't remember the last time I heard an in-flight announcement that I actually needed to hear. They're far from "usually important." 99% of flights could happily go from start to finish without a single use of the PA, if it were legal to do so, and if the airline could exercise self-control. The PA system should be reserved for actual important safety-related announcements. It's outrageous that the same system that would be used to tell you to brace for a crash is also used to repeatedly flog credit cards, duty-free sales, and other such nonsense, training everybody to ignore it.

JshWright 12y ago

I recently flew Delta (I generally stick with American/USAir) and noticed this. On several occasions I noticed folks physically cringing and plugging their ears during PA announcements.

louprado 12y ago

Preferably, limit announcements to the bare minimum and use pre-recordings. There is too much variability in voice intensity. A pre-warning chime before an announcement would reduce stress and allow time to cover our ears. It would also spare me from apologizing to passengers since I scream when I am awoken abruptly. Thanks for the data Darren.

mschip 12y ago

I used to work for a major jet engine manufacturer. Noise reduction is right up there with fuel consumption in consideration with new model development. Not because of complaining passengers though.. A lot of the push comes from certain airports that aren't far enough outside of major cities (I can't remember which ones exactly, I think it was mostly a few major asian cities). They actually restrict certain models from using their airport.

lil_cain 12y ago
London City, and even Heathrow have major issues with neighbours.

6stringmerc 12y ago

Having many, many years of travel experience leads me to one Occam's Razor type observation: If people would actually pay attention to a safety briefing instead of playing with their gadgets / not taking off their headphones, then the flight crew wouldn't be trying so hard to get the attention of the passengers. With this unpopular opinion, I'll see myself out the nearest exit, which is actually located behind me.

guelo 12y ago
Except the safety briefings are a useless bureaucratic formality. We don't need to hear them.
- wycats 12y ago
  They're very useful for infrequent (or first-time) travelers, but pointless for frequent travelers.
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  They may save your life. But yeah, fligh companies do not think they are important enough to bother their customers over them. They do the bare minimum required, and if you don't want to pay attention, they don't care.
- 6stringmerc 12y ago
  ...apparently more people do need to hear them and pay attention, particularly to the part of "Always keep your safety belt fastened when seated" because I've seen plenty of news lately of violent turbulence and passengers being thrown around because they didn't pay attention and follow the instructions they are legally obligated to follow...which is why no personal injury lawsuit regarding unintended turbulence for an un-buckled in passenger will ever win, near as I can tell.
sukilot 12y ago
Occam's (and Halon's) razor says that volume is set to an arbitrary default ("loud " == "audible") and no one cares to change it. It boggles that any other option is in consideration. In airline has done actual measurements of attention vs volume.

nate_meurer 12y ago

My comment from another thread on this subject: --- Earplugs! I bought a box of foam earplugs that has supplied me for years now. I cut them in half; half an earplug is the perfect length for unobtrusive everyday wear. I have quantities of half-earplugs stashed in all my pants pockets, in my car, my work bag, and in a little container on my keychain. I wear them in the car, on planes, at the shooting range, when grinding coffee, and especially when putting away dishes. Fucking clanging-together dishes are the loudest things I encounter in my regular routine. For my kids I bought silicone putty plugs. They work perfectly for little ears, and I keep them with the foam plugs. My kids know where the big orange jar of earplugs is, and they've acquired some of my discipline.

azth 12y ago
> I wear them in the car Hopefully not while driving though :)
- batbomb 12y ago
  Deaf people would disagree
  - ohazi 12y ago
    Deaf people may be able to drive, but wearing earplugs while driving is still illegal (in California, anyway).
- Dylan16807 12y ago
  Why not? Attenuating all sound doesn't have a huge impact on what you're able to hear.
  - ctdonath 12y ago
    Indeed; to the contrary, I find myself hyper-aware of sounds when wearing attenuative hearing protection.
  - colin_mccabe 12y ago

Alupis 12y ago

Few thoughts: > and opened the decibel meter on my iPhone These are notoriously inaccurate. To get accurate decibel readings, the mic must be calibrated to absolute known levels (something your App can't do). The App's are basically just comparing relative sounds (this sound is more prominent than this other one, and therefore must be louder... after establishing some relative baseline). Real decibel measuring equipment is very expensive and requires re-calibration routinely. So, measuring 80db could easily be in a swing of +/- 10db's (or more). > 150dB: Jet take-off at 25 meters (eardrum rupture) That's not quite accurate. Long term exposure could lead to damage over time, but for comparison a shotgun is typically measured at 165db when it's up against your shoulder and face. Yes, you wear hearing protection (nick-named "ears" if you are a frequent shooter) but your eardrumps aren't rupturing immediately if you take them off. > What shocked me was the volume of the PA system Yes, it's loud -- by design. The PA system is not there just to provide something to listen to in case you are bored. In a best case scenario, it's there for the usual "buckle-up" talk and for the pilot to give a greeting. In the worst case scenario, it's there for emergency instructions (a time when panic and passenger noises are likely to get quite loud on their own).

edsykes 12y ago
definitely true on the inaccuracy. however, in the absence of anything else it is an indication.
- Alupis 12y ago
  The only thing it's an indication of is the App feels the PA is louder than the other ambient noise in the cabin... which in order to be an effective PA, it must be. The number it assigns it might as well of been made up... or put on some App-specific scale like 1-10, 10 being "we think this is really loud".
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
city41 12y ago
I often take issue with the "pilot greeting". Many pilots just ramble on and on. Often on and off throughout the entire flight. I really don't care nor do I want that blaring in my ears. I don't understand why airlines think this is a good idea.

uptown 12y ago

Sort of off-topic, but maybe somebody commenting on audio acoustics and decibels will know -- When you call a business and they pipe their automated music into the call while you're on-hold, why is the audio quality of that music frequently horrible? You'll get fuzzy music, or drop-outs of the music track - but when a human picks up the phone, it tends to sound just like most other phone calls. It seems like such a basic solvable problem, but I don't know where to attribute the blame.

userbinator 12y ago
Music is basically never going to sound good over a POTS because it's a low-bandwidth channel optimised for human voice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceband http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceband It may also be a legacy system using old worn-out looping casette tapes for the music.
- yourcelf 12y ago
  It's even worse if the sound is going through a digital (VOIP / cell phone) system. Most modern codecs for voice are using some form of Linear Predictive Coding[1] (e.g. ACELPC) which is basically modeling sound as a resonator at the bottom of a tube with a filter bank (sortof like your voice box). With voice, this is a reasonably good approximation, and the codecs are aggressively tuned to be efficient at that. But if full-band music gets piped through it will sound roughly like that music is being produced by a flapping plosive at the bottom of a long tube. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding
  - spdustin 12y ago
    "Flapping plosive at the bottom of a long tube." What an exceptionally colorful description of the effects of that type of codec! Well done. I wonder if there are applications for psychoacoustic modeling approaches for safety/compulsory announcements. Can they be encoded in a different way before broadcast on the PA to take advantage of our perception of human speech? And possible a different codec still for users of headphones? Or perhaps a quick, sharp attention tone before urgent broadcasts, but for non safety/compulsory announcements, a lower volume setting...

suvelx 12y ago

Recently spent over 48 hours in the wonderful company of Cathay Pacific. Their announcements (and especially their English announcements) are always a quiet high-speed mumble. 10/10 would (try to) listen to them again. Everything else was terrible.

Zigurd 12y ago

I have for a long time used unobtrusive IEMs with Comply tips (MEElectronics, small, black, with a memory wire that guides the headphone wires over and behind the ears). They shut out the world very effectively, and are cheap enough that it's not a tragedy to lose them. I have never had a flight attendant bug me about them. United is particularly bad about cranking their PA system up into distortion screeching range. It's pure sadism.

dothething 12y ago

Hacker News on Friday is always the worst.

lfam 12y ago

This is a pet peeve of mine that I developed while doing video production in the live event industry. Unfortunately almost nobody cares about protecting their hearing. Pretty much everyone in food service in the US exposes themselves to dangerous audio levels throughout their work shifts. My coworkers with SPL meters routinely measured sound pressure levels above 105 dB for hours at a time. But try wearing earplugs as a waiter or bartender... you will be treated like a lunatic.

zippergz 12y ago
You say "in the US." Does that mean you've found other countries to be significantly quieter? I don't think I have, but I'm genuinely curious about this. Have there been any studies on the average sound levels in public places (or workplaces) in different countries?
specialist 12y ago
As a father and fan of live music: I get cranky when I see kids without ear protection, especially toddlers and younger, who have no control or way to escape. I make a point of praising the parents who put ear muffs on their infants.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Why make the music so loud as to require hearing protection? That seems inefficient.
  - npizzolato 12y ago
    Because you don't have control over how loud a band is playing at a live festival. So you can either complain about something you can't change, decide to not attend an event you want to attend, or do what you can to fix the problem.
  - bashinator 12y ago
    Because the experience of being physically vibrated by the compression waves in the air is amazingly sublime. There's a reason people don't start dancing until you hit a certain volume level. I wear musician-quality earplugs.

grandalf 12y ago

I've experienced airline PA announcements to exceed the pain threshold many times. It's utterly ridiculous how loud they are. In my opinion, the less that is broadcast over the PA the better.

ufmace 12y ago

I could believe it. I just flew Spirit (never again, for reasons in addition to this) a couple of weeks ago, and they spent the last 20 minutes or so of the flight hawking some kind of credit card deal. Even wearing earplugs barely put a dent in the volume.

aembleton 12y ago
ah, that sounds like Ryanair.
spdustin 12y ago
I've not experienced this at all, but I routinely fly American or United (or their international "alliance" partners). My next flight is on Southwest. I wonder how different that'll be - boarding procedures don't generally bug me (we're all going to the same place in a giant airborne metal tube), but crew behavior has the power to wreck the experience for me.
- ufmace 12y ago
  I haven't seen it on any other airline either. I think it's only on the "discount" airlines, where you can get a slightly cheaper flight... as long as you buy your baggage check and check in in the right way and don't expect to actually eat or drink anything on board.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I think the author answered their own question with this statement: "I’ve been on flights where the sound of the flight attendants over the PA system was loud enough to sound like the attendant was shouting directly into my ear despite having two layers of sound protection." The PA system in the airplane is part of the safety equipment, the crew uses it to inform the passengers during an emergency what they should do to prepare. Everyone knows that during a flight people will have noise cancelling earphones on and possibly dual layers of protection. Also the ambient noise in an aircraft with its nose pitched down at a steep angle or in an uncontrolled spin is likely to be quite high. The PA has to cut through all of that in order to communicate with you. I agree it would be nice if they didn't use full emergency power during non-essential communication, but the FAA considers the safety briefing to be essential communication so you are out of luck there.

thanatosmin 12y ago

This is exacerbated by the absolutely intrusive use of the PA system--rather than just for safety announcements we now have the pleasure of enduring credit card and frequent flier program ads.

quinndupont 12y ago

To take the edge off the sound (but only slightly... still able to carry on a conversation) and to prevent my ear drum from exploding I wear Ear Planes[1]. They aren't perfect, but I do find they help, say, maybe 40% of the pressure issue. 1] http://www.cirrushealthcare.com/EarPlanes-Adult-P49.aspx http://www.cirrushealthcare.com/EarPlanes-Adult-P49.aspx

mixmastamyk 12y ago

I use a pair of sony extra-bass earbuds that are thicker and have a bit of extra foam around the earbud to reduce noise. The work great in the airplane, knocking off about 50% of the outside volume. I leave them in the whole flight as they cut out most of the engine vibration as well. Also wear them in a crowded office, at home with kids, or coffee shop etc when I need to focus. Most of the time I'm not even playing music, but people assume so and will interrupt you a bit less often. Also helpful when making calls, etc.

shutupalready22 12y ago

I think the correct response when the PA system is used at excessive volume is to scream loudly asking that it be turned down. When this becomes a socially acceptable (or simply common) response, airlines will have to stop.