13 ms·

Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

• segmondy 12y ago
  You are not fucked. Do not say that again, do not repeat it, do you even think it! Pick yourself up as fast as you can and get going. Start hunting again, don't take too long and get back in the groove. The worse period of my life was the moment I made the mistake of thinking "I was fucked" took too long to come out of it, and all it took was starting to think, "I'm not fucked, I can do better, it's possible" Best of luck.
• petercooper 12y ago
  I officially joined as the COO. So did you have an official contract, equity deal, etc? I doubt there's much you can do about these decision not to take you on after all, you probably need to grieve for the job and move on, but you should certainly hold them to their legal obligations, especially if they had to give you notice (which they should be paying you for).
  • danielweber 12y ago
    Even with an official contract, unless he was explicitly promised certain things, he can still be let go. American companies generally don't have any notice requirements. The fact that he's overseas may create a liability for the company in that country, but they probably don't care about that. (edit: They must absolutely pay him for hours worked.) Assuming his options had vesting (which 'tptacek will remind us to always have, so the YC company probably knows about that advice), he doesn't have any equity. I've seen this problem from a few sides, so OP has my sympathy, for whatever it's worth. I've seen people laid off a week after joining when the adults suddenly realized they were bleeding money. I very very recently saw someone approved for a job and accept it, told to wait a few days while internal funding moved around, and then suddenly the entire project was cancelled.
• striking 12y ago
  Startups are dangerous business. As much as I understand why you'd be chasing the American dream (I too am an immigrant, first generation off the farm) I'm sure you understood the risks of leaping before you looked. Good luck.
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    I did plan for a lot of scenarios - except for the one that happened. For example, I planned running out of funding (in which case we discussed a viable bootstrapping strategy). All my planning assumed that I would be part of the team.
• alexholehouse 12y ago
  Please someone correct me, but assuming you didn't sign anything, I suspect your recourse beyond "AGRGRGRHRGRHGRGHRHGRRHGR" is limited (not that this posts suggests you're looking for vengeance or anything). That really really sucks.
• zetazzed 12y ago
  (1) Be very happy that this happened before you actually uprooted your life and moved to a new country, only to find yourself jobless there! (2) Reach out again to the managers behind some of your past job offers. We have hired people who previously passed on us then had the other gig fall through or run out of funding. Many of those old offers will reappear and you'll be fine.
  • danielweber 12y ago
    I'll repeat (2). Assuming you politely declined, those bridges are still around. People get things yanked out from underneath them through no fault of their own. If they went through the hiring process enough to decide that you are a good candidate, the fact that they were your second choice shouldn't upset them.
  • marauf 12y ago
    2nd that ... it be miserable if you had actually moved :)
• zerr 12y ago
  Founders think they did nothing wrong or something to be hidden. So please share more details and save some of us from similar perspectives. Thanks!
• viggity 12y ago
  well, at the very least, I think it isn't out of the question to be asked to be paid for those two weeks. If they made a mistake, shit happens, but they should still be on the hook for it. I'd even consider asking for severance of a couple weeks. They've hosed you, they should try to offset it a little bit. I understand that it probably isn't about the money, but I would hope they at least offered you that.
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    They have offered to pay me for the two weeks.
    • menriquez 12y ago
      then take the cash, move on, and don't look back...in 6 months you will barely remember this whole event. startups are risky...high risk high reward...it didn't work out but man, if you were good enough to be hired like that you can find 100's of opportunities.
    • x0x0 12y ago
      Fucking what? There is no "offer" to pay you for the two weeks. If you worked for them, they flat out owe you that money. That's an "offer" in the same way I "offer" to pay my landlord for not kicking me out. You need a lawyer.
    • dragonwriter 12y ago
      They owe you pay for the two weeks plus penalties (equal to one days pay for each day of delay) for not paying the final pay immediately at the time of termination, so they are "offering" for you to forgo pay to which you are legally entitled. See California Labor Code Secs. 201, 203. EDIT: Though, the remote working arrangement and lack of US visa, even with what appears to be, from the given description, a valid employment contract (with offer, acceptance, and performance all having occurred) likely makes this less clear cut and, in any case, makes pursuing it more difficult, costly, and time consuming.
  • danielweber 12y ago
• Veus 12y ago
  That does suck! I'm not familiar with the law in the USA but in the UK you can be let go for very little within the first 2 years of employment. You don't have a right for unfair dismissal for the first two years. The notice period is 1 week for anyone that has worked less than 2 years.
  • walshemj 12y ago
    Only up to a point in the UK the race and gender discrimination laws still apply for unfair dismissal.
• epx 12y ago
  Like soccer players, good people should be paid a "fix" in order to change jobs, so they would not starve when something like this happens.
• itodd 12y ago
  You are not fucked. Just breathe. Think about it this way, It's likely that this start up will not be around for long if they make such poor decisions with their most important asset. No matter how you think about it, a very poor decision was made. You have a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience. You are so far from fucked.
  • rubiquity 12y ago
    This. You'll have another job sooner than you think. A lesson that I picked up from some people I respect is that they don't announce big life/job changes to non-family/extremely close friends until they've already been in that change for 1-3 months. Also I wouldn't give the Founders the benefit of the doubt of being "good people." Even if they are a YC startup, morons come in all shapes and sizes so even YC isn't moron-free. And yes, only a moron makes decisions to hire people that will have to go through a lot of change to take the job without being absolutely positively sure that they are the right person. This sounds like an episode of "Hire Slow, Fire Fast", which is a cool way of saying: "We fucked up. Abort! Abort! Abort!" Despite how nice they are being to your face, they've realized for some valid-to-them reason that they made a mistake in hiring you. Don't take it personally, just get back on the horse.
  • espitia 12y ago
    > You have a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience. You are so far from fucked. Really. Employers everywhere are looking for people like you. Breathe, accept what happened, DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF FOR IT and move on to the next thing. Remember, if you are going through hell, keep going!
  • izendejas 12y ago
    Yep, you'll be better off, but these people should have given you a severance package and if I were in their position, I would have offered to help you find a job.
• festivusr 12y ago
  They are not good guys. They might be good guys in their personal life, but hiring someone from outside the country, letting them cut ties, and then laying them off immediately is not something a "good guy" does.
• vuldin 12y ago
  While everyone understands there is an added level of uncertainty when taking a start up position, your situation sounds more unusual than most considering that it does little more than screws up your career and short term family plans. You can't really say you worked at this company, you've already gone through what sounds like a lengthy job search and turned down all positions that came up besides this one, made plans with your family to move to the States, and then a week after getting 'hired' you had to make other plans. I'm not sure why you say you like the founders when they treat people like this. This is a serious blow to your life that they are responsible for.
  • marauf 12y ago
    hmm .. I don't know. I feel differently. They may be nice people. But hiring and firing is a purely business decision. It might be that they needed a different skill set. Or had another candidate who was a lot cheaper. Investor money drying up, lots of things. Its a job at the end of the day and he was let go.
    • eropple 12y ago
      > But hiring and firing is a purely business decision. ... Its a job at the end of the day and he was let go. I have a serious beef with this mode of thinking. Nothing that you do to another human being is a "purely business decision." And from a practical perspective it's better, in the long run, for you too to be remembered as having owned your mistakes and done right by the people you wronged. Of course, there is the line of thinking that, hey, this guy won't ever help me later, so I can screw him and skate. And that is entirely too common in startupland. But that speaks to the poor humanity of its thinker more than anything else.
      • zem 12y ago
        agreed, "just business" is a horrible cop out, and it's sad that so many people buy into it even when they are on the getting screwed end of the equation.
• TheMagicHorsey 12y ago
  Job offers don't disappear. Just go back to the other ones and see what is still open.
  • wspeirs 12y ago
    Yea, in most cases a recruiter would be VERY happy to not have to try and find someone else to fill the position. Granted, you're going not going to get the same salary as before, but it's a start.
    • waterfowl 12y ago
      You're not going to get the same salary? Really? has the amount of value he can provide decreased after his failed YC backed COO stint or is it just some petty 'loyalty' thing? That would be insulting, especially because the recruiter tends to get paid more if you do(so why would they do that?). I don't doubt that there are people who would do that, but idk how they can they get away with it in such a hot market for technical talent.
      • crpatino 12y ago
        Not his objective value (if there is such thing), but his sense of self worth has. Recruiters are trained and drilled into exploit this kind of weaknesses.
        • notahacker 12y ago
          Your sense of self-worth (or solvency) has to be pretty shattered to accept that you're worth less to a company than they offered you mere weeks ago. If recruiters are trained to insult potential employees by making lower offers than they earlier rejected, they deserve all the unfilled vacancies they're going to get.
  • vcherubini 12y ago
    Yup! You might have to eat some humble pie, but if they were serious about you they'll easily have you back.
• gdilla 12y ago
  how fucked can you be really after only 2 weeks? You didn't move yet, you haven't burned any bridges in your network, you have skills that are in demand, you have not uprooted your life for them.
• meritt 12y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070 There's 500+ other jobs available, you can just as readily find another one.
• bengali3 12y ago
  Sorry to hear that! What the consensus on the best way for someone to avoid this? Immediate vesting if let go? Some predefined severance agreement? 6 mo/12 mo contract? I understand it's a big decision for a startup to hire employee #1, but how can I protect myself in such a future case?
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    • bengali3 12y ago
      Thank you
  • wspeirs 12y ago
    You can always ask (accelerated vesting, golden parachute, etc), but it's doubtful you'll get anything. Joining a startup is a risk, period. Part of that risk is that the company (or your job) will be gone in weeks/months/years. However, the upside is usually there. So if you can tolerate the risk, go for it... but always have a plan B.
• deleted 12y ago
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• throw4323 12y ago
  > I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup Which one is it?
  • wlesieutre 12y ago
    Since he was clearly avoiding saying who it was, I think he probably doesn't want to say who it was.
  • dreamweapon 12y ago
    Just the fact that it was YC startup -- presumably YC S14 -- and that they've gone through a recent "change in leadership", specifically for the COO position -- should make it pretty easy to identify them, with a little bit of research. We can be sure that anyone in the YC board reading this thread has a pretty good idea who they are by now, in any case.
• uptown 12y ago
  I'd seek compensation for whatever time you were formally employed by the startup. I'd also reach out to some of the other companies I'd passed up job opportunities with to see whether they're still willing to discuss working for them. Be open, and honest as to why you're getting back in-touch with them, and perhaps explain why you chose the US startup over their opportunity to completely clear that question-mark in their minds. Your situation is frustrating, but there's plenty of opportunity for smart, motivated, talented people. To help with your frustration, try to flip the story in your mind. This company is going to have to find a way to succeed without your knowledge, experience, and help. That's their problem now. Good luck to you.
• vincentleeuwen 12y ago
  Launch a competitor.
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    So in my interview, I mentioned that I had thought of launching the exact same company about a year ago - and one of the reasons why I took this role was because the idea for this service is very close to my heart! I like how they were executing, so I decided to join them instead of competing.
    • xvolter 12y ago
      You've had many past ideas, such as: http://www.scatter.fm/ http://www.scatter.fm/ (and a mobile app) - a location based deal site and mobile app for hunting deals from nearby shops. Or https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/ https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/ Seems like your ideas are generally around finding good deals, price hutning, so my guess is that the YCombinator startup that hired you is around the same idea. There are a few YCombinator startups that deal with simialr things; I don't have the time to find the entire list. Maybe someone else can do that and the HN community can figure out which company did this.
• jowiar 12y ago
  > I like the founders - they are good guys. No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes. As it stands, if you had one of the other offers you were interested in, let them know that the company that you had taken reneged, and that you would love to work with them. Hiring good engineers is hard (and expensive) enough that any decent company won't mind being your second choice.
  • JasonFruit 12y ago
    I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work.
    • hacknat 12y ago
      Why is the burden always on the individual to not "burn the bridge"? I'd say that this startup has burnt this bridge pretty well. It would have been perfectly reasonable for him to tell us who they were and for us to avoid them like the plague.
      • smtddr 12y ago
        >>Why is the burden always on the individual to not "burn the bridge"? Because the individual has more to lose. Which is more likely, the public boycott the company or the companies boycott the individual? Especially in the world of tech, even if you're right about a company's bad practice just going off and posting a rant about them online reflects badly on you. It means you probably should have just left the company before you got so angry about them. I personally have some very deeply negative feelings about my time in at&t but now I realize it's my own fault for staying 6 years when I was already fed up in my first 18 months. It just made me bitter. At the absolute minimum, when they see your name on a resume and immediately associate it with recent memory of a rant on HN or some complex ordeal described in a techcrunch article, they'll think twice about you. Maybe they'll still go forward with you; but their will be a double-think. If someone really wants to post something that's less than positive about a previous employer, that person should do it as objectively as possible. Remove all emotion, only state facts with no sensationalism or leading-questions or anything suggestive and be sure to state the whole thing as just "their very humble opinion". It would also show a sense of responsibility/maturity to state the issues that concerned in in a form of a question. "Who you the reader have done things this way?" And especially to suggest a solution. "The way I would have done it is..." What happened to the OP here is regrettable and doesn't sound like it's his/her fault. This person handled it professionally by just asking for advice and not mentioning names.
• deleted 12y ago
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• julie1 12y ago
  Life sux. And being a nice person with good intentions does not mean you are unlikely to do no harm to anyone. That is the major reason why I first learnt to avoid «charismatic/nice» employers; I was fed up of being f*cked in the ass nicely. Then I matured and learnt to trust but check.
• jvagner 12y ago
  I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but: 1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before. 2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, you should also be able to negotiate a proper separation agreement, something like 6 months severance after 6 months of service. The signing bonus covers the initial bump, and then everyone has a window to see if things are copacetic. After that, it's a real relationship with consequences for dissolution. 3. You should be interviewing and considering companies as much as they're evaluating you. There's gotta be more to this story, some of which may be evident as you ponder what really happened. You've gotta develop that antennae. Asking to speak to a company's founders or advisors is a reasonable thing to do, certainly for a COO role that involves international relocation. 4. The "best guys" I've ever worked for f*cked me or our companies over. It's an important qualification to an extent, but character and vision and stability are secondary factors that will wag the dog, so to speak. Especially in startups. Startups are risky, and not always due to market forces or the brilliance of the business idea. Give yourself a good long notch in your work belt.
  • peteretep 12y ago
    > Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't > hold taking another job against you Also a CTO who has hired many people. If I've made someone an offer, I want them. If they've had a better offer, that's ok. But if they've turned me down because it went nowhere, I still want them.
    • kabdib 12y ago
      Agreed; a good company will stand behind a prior offer, within reason. Twice I've gone back to someone who had given me an offer and said "I screwed up, would you still consider me?" a year later, and had an instant and very positive response. (I had to do a fake interview at one of those, but just to satisfy HR).
      • 12y ago
• untog 12y ago
  If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don't think they will be around for long. You might have dodged a bullet. If you got this job, it's extremely likely that you will get another. Don't get me wrong, it's going to suck to explain to people you promoted the startup to that you actually don't work there after all, but it's not the end of the world.
  • bdcravens 12y ago
    If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don't think they will be around for long. Yes, if he truly wasn't a good fit, it sounds like they hired too quickly.
• felixbraun 12y ago
  "I decided to not participate in the startup I mentioned longterm and instead reconsidered your offer from (a few weeks ago?). Coffee?"
• bussiere 12y ago
  Yeah it happens to me, and now i don't refuse other offer as long as i haven't signed anything. In french we say "un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras". "One given is better than you'll get two." Bref, you have opportunity and to your wife telle the things frankly and breath you'll find job soon. I wish you well for the next things. Regards.
  • raverbashing 12y ago
    The equivalent saying is "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
• tedchs 12y ago
  Sorry to hear about your situation. Unfortunately, this likely happens more often than you'd like to think. If I were in your shoes, I would immediately re-establish contact with the recruiters who previously made you offers, and let them know you were grievously misled by this other company, and you are interested to know if their offer is still available. You may also consider engaging a lawyer. If it were me, I would demand payment for all time worked, plus additional monies to compensate you for your opportunity cost of turning down these other offers, especially if you left a previous job to work for these guys.
• jebus989 12y ago
  Sorry to hear your story. IIRC the lean startup differentiates a "start-up" from a small new business by the idea that the former operates under gross uncertainty. Generally HN smoothes over this but stories like yours help keep things in perspective.
• bjliu 12y ago
  Do you have a green card? Is there legal issues with staying in America? I think this would be helpful information; otherwise, getting a new job in Silicon Valley (or America) should be fine for someone as capable as you.
  • AhtiK 12y ago
    "hired and unhired in 2 weeks." "Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa." Looks like the "visa issue" remained to be solved.
• icantthinkofone 12y ago
  This almost happened to me twice in a four month period. I was given a job offer at Pixar (back when Pixar made their own hardware). I really wanted to go there but my first son was born and I just didn't feel Pixar was quite stable enough so I turned the job down. Turned out I was right because, if I had taken the job, I would have learned Pixar was getting out of the hardware business and I would have been let go two weeks after starting. The job I took instead was with Silicon Graphics. I was hired for my video expertise. Was sent to training, set up in a local office, and then the company did a re-organization and my new boss was in Dallas instead of Detroit. My new boss decided he wanted a Fortran programmer and not a video expert so, three months after hire, I'm gone.
• jusben1369 12y ago
  It sounds like you're more embarrassed than anything else. Ask yourself what your life will look like in just 6 months from today. I suspect just fine. At worst you'll still go a bright red color when you think about this after a couple of drinks. Chalk it up and be glad you didn't make the move and then find this out. I have no idea about the circumstances but it's possible these guys need to be commended for moving very quickly to stop you in your tracks once they determined that for some reason the fit wasn't right.
• DanBC 12y ago
  A little humility and self-awareness should go a long way when talking to people about getting jobs. It seems form your post that you're worried that you may have "burned your bridges". But, really, so long as you weren't rude you should be okay.
• bdcravens 12y ago
  You're embarrassed, not fucked. You work in a high income industry, and even if you went without work for 6 months, you're not fucked. Seriously, this crisis pretty much epitomizes "first world problems". It stings, but you'll build up tougher skin and better business sense as a result. "Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa." Honestly, that was the problem. You were dispensable, in the mind of the founders. Lesson: iron out all details before starting. "I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup." The founders know this. If they become the next Dropbox, employee #1 becomes a millionaire or better. Even if it fails, it prestigious. Do you think that caused you to take a job that may otherwise have not taken?
• ilaksh 12y ago
  Ask them if they would rather pay what they owe you or have the name of the company public in this context.
  • jerven 12y ago
    Don't ever do this. It is blackmail and will get you into a whole lot of trouble!
    • ilaksh 12y ago
      Is it blackmail or is it giving them an opportunity to see one reason why they should pay him what they already owe? For context, try to imagine if the company had offered him a "legal agreement" where he was payed a few extra weeks' salary and in exchange agreed not to discuss anything.
      • jerven 12y ago
        Asking for what they owe you is fine, even asking for more is acceptable. It is the threat of an unrelated negative that is blackmail. And that the quickest way to make people unhelpful and if you leave a trace of it, its going to ruin your chances in court. So no upside just downsides, so don't do that part of "else I am telling the world".
• alexyes 12y ago
  Go ahead and explain the situation to the employers whose offers you turned down. Especially in the US, people will understand, and the offers should still be valid.
  • bdcravens 12y ago
    "It wasn't a good fit" is always a great way to describe it, and is fairly neutral from both sides. Whatever he does, he shouldn't bad-mouth the company.
• simonebrunozzi 12y ago
  Besides all the nice advice that others have added, I'll give you mine: talk to a lawyer, and have him send physical letters to the company, and to YC. The lawyer gives you two things: 1) He knows if you can be compensated for the damage; 2) It would give YC an opportunity to take care of this matter. Oh, and by the way: I don't know their side of the story, therefore I don't want to judge; however, it is very likely that they lied to you - letting someone go after two weeks is weird, and I don't believe that "it's not about you".
• koliber 12y ago
  If you are on good talking terms, and it seems like you are since you mentioned the word "polite" a few times in your post, I would politely ask them for a severance package, in case one is not included in your contract. They can of course politely not give you one. Depending on how the conversation goes, you will be able to recalibrate the "nice guy" stick you are using to measure the founders.
• menriquez 12y ago
  your not fucked...there is basically an unlimited amount of opportunity out there for what we do. trust me...i KNOW fucked...i got caught with some recreational substances a few years back and am probation for three felony possession charges. 25y+ of software development and it's impossible..IMPOSSIBLE..for me to get past any HR for ANY decent job. so chill out...enjoy a week off...and get hired next.
• michaelochurch 12y ago
  I like the founders - they are good guys. No, they're not. "Good guys" don't fire someone without a severance after 2 weeks for no reason, especially not after you've put your reputation on the line as you have. I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones) Try to get those offers back. Explain what happened. If there's another solid option you can take, then you don't need to worry. Try to get a month or two of severance from the YCs but don't worry too much if you can't, and don't jeopardize success in your next gig by putting your energies into an all-out legal fight. If you're turned down, however, document it. This is going to help you make a case against the YC founders. The words you want are detrimental reliance, and to make that case, you need to establish damages. A job offer you had, that you lost, constitute damages. You relied detrimentally on the offer (later rescinded) from the YC company. That's a stronger case to make than wrongful termination, which often involves venturing into the undefined behavior of at-will employment. Then-- if you can't get a severance on the order of 3-4 months, plus reimbursement for any relocation (both ways) or visa costs you've-- get a lawyer involved and sue.
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    >Try to get those offers back. Explain what happened. I tried. My next choice office is gone (the company found someone else). I was a bit bummed, which is partly what lead me to post here on HN, and seek advice. Thanks for the advice. Its good to know about my rights and options available.
    • fnbr 12y ago
      I would strongly advise against suing, however. It certainly sounds like you have a case (although IANAL), but it would damage your reputation[1]. Do document everything though, it's great to have options. [1] I know this is BS, but it's reality. Your reputation shouldn't be affected with your response to unethical former employers, but as someone entering a new community (i.e. bay area startups), you don't want to make it any more difficult than it has to be.
      • michaelochurch 12y ago
• free2rhyme214 12y ago
  Hi Poster, No you're not. There are no positive or negative events in life. All events are neutral. It is within your power to see them as positive. Reality doesn't care about your "destiny." So besides my airy fairy comment above what I mean is when something bad happens you have to take massive action to get the result you want. So when young founders make DUMB decisions that screw you over you apply to 40-60 jobs a day and find a better job. You take MASSIVE action to make the situation a positive one. You have NO time to waste complaining about what happened. Your time needs to be spent working your butt off finding new work. That means 40-60 jobs per day. That also means you should look at investing in assets so your income isn't reliant on an employer or anyone for that matter. Life will always do this to you. Always. How you react to situations like this is what defines you. Nobody can escape this. Everyone will have ups and downs in life. Now. Right now. Today is your time to take massive action. Not sit on hacker news or the internet all day. Not complaining to your wife. Now is your time to make this a positive situation. If you don't believe me don't do what I say and see what happens.
  • free2rhyme214 12y ago
    Last comment: Right now it seems bad because you are all caught up in your emotions. When you start thinking logically you'll realize what I'm saying is true. Also with a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience you can earn more than $100k easily. How is that being fucked? Many people in the world would kill to be in your position, living in the silicon valley and being able to find jobs like you can. You are blessed with this education and probably a beautiful wife. Make the most of your time and be grateful.
  • Dewie 12y ago
    I don't think he was looking for that kind of advice, Tony. But maybe it will help.
• fpgeek 12y ago
  I'm a bit surprised no one has suggested what I consider the most likely possibility: They had no idea what getting you a visa actually entailed and bailed once you started and they discovered how hard it would be. I'm leaning that way because most people don't understand how hard visas actually are, the way they were vague about their reasons and the timing. Of course, if that's what actually happened, not telling you the truth would immediately take them out of "good guy" bucket. Other than that, I agree with everyone who is saying to get back in touch with the offers you turned down. Even if they've all hired someone else already, talking to people who wanted to hire you in the recent past is a great way to kick off a job search.
  • yardie 12y ago
    I also believe it is the visa issue. You're the COO and they are just going to figure out the visa situation, eventually? A small company doesn't have the money to get an E-visa and as COO you probably wouldn't qualify as H1B nor would you want to be when they start doing funding rounds.
    • troebr 12y ago
      What kind of visa could you qualify for as a COO?
      • tonyhb 12y ago
        It's not necessarily based on your title. When I went through the process, it boils down to: - Do you have a degree, and experience? Great. Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you? Even better. Now, just wait for next year's allocation of visa's and you might grab one on the day they're released. Then, wait between 1 and 8 years for your visa to be processed (while the job is still available) and you're allowed to work here. - Are you an exceptional alien? Well, do you judge other's work, have papers written, have competed in a globally recognised event for your work, or some other proof of your excellence? Yes? Great, we can apply, but there's only a limited number of visas. Wait a year. It's really, really tough. Not many of us make it. I had a few job offers moving over here but was only able to move here because my wife was American. And getting her back to the UK is also no easy feat. Despite being globally connected the visa process still sucks.
• dontbeabitch 12y ago
  Out them. Now.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• jheriko 12y ago
  did you sign a contract? most standard contracts would be being broken by this behaviour. if i were you i'd squeeze them for having dicked you over...
• stevebot 12y ago
  Not to sound trite, but I wish I was in your shoes. You have a masters, 6 years of mgmt exp., and most importantly a wife that is _willing to pack up everything and move_. That's awesome man, best of luck to you, you will be on your feet soon.
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    Thanks! This is my wife's favourite comment. I wonder why. :)
• mcguire 12y ago
  You absolutely need to go back through your contacts and explain exactly what happened. Especially to those who you advised to use this startup's service and those you asked about potential investments. After hearing this story, they may reconsider such involvement---I certainly would. These are not "good guys". They are at best short-sighted, unprepared, and unprofessional. Hiring decisions are important and difficult; the best spin I can see is that they do not know who they need and are very unprepared for this step. (Want a worse spin? Someone they know has suddenly become available and they wish to give them the employee #1/Coo badge.) This behavior is a big red flag. (I've been in similar situations before---I'm thinking of a research group at ORNL right now---but rescinding an offer is significantly worse.) As other people have said, don't worry about your personal situation. Most of your contacts will likely have understood your original decision and find the thing offensive as well. On the other hand, I don't think you'll be able to convince your wife to move to the US again. Tell her we're not all assholes, though.
• comeonnow 12y ago
  What are your thoughts on not uprooting before you have a formal offer of employment, and a contract signed. Personally, I wouldn't put any wheels in motion until I had a contract in case something like this were to happen, and then if it did they'd be breaking it. I'm not saying it's this persons fault, but I don't necessarily think saying the founders are not good guys (aka bad guys), I think it's more about being assertive and protecting yourself. In my experience, I've never handed in notice without a formal offer and that's for local jobs. If you add moving abroad to that, then there are definitely some extra steps needed to protect yourself. I sincerely wish you the best in finding somewhere else, and it's a horrible situation, but if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    I sincerely wish you the best... Thank you! if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently? You know thats such a good question. There are many excellent suggestions in this discussion. I would definitely add a cost in the contract - a cost (e.g. severance etc.) in case I am asked to leave for reasons other than performance. This should mitigate the casualness which hurt me last time. What won't change is that startups are looking for great people, and some people are looking for great startups :) But I would definitely structure the deal with a startup very differently, as a result of this discussion.
• smileysteve 12y ago
  Hey Man, that short term action on a perceived long term decision is rough. Suggestions: Know exactly what skill-set the founders were looking for; what lifestyle choices they were looking for is probably also related. You can turn this into a conversation that helps both parties ask better interview questions. Ask that you stay on, making your salary for several weeks as a contractor. If this isn't possible ask that you get paid reasonable living expenses for a few weeks. This provides a little runway for your job search. (Be wary though that this might raise your hopes.) Always ensure that you get paid. For that one week before they hired you, for the two weeks you were on. For your network that you asked for investment from, you need to secure that a) you are no longer part of that company b) if an investment is made, you deserve an advisor's fee (5-10% pre round is typical)
• balls187 12y ago
  > I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones) Hopefully, when you turned down the job offer, you did so in a classy way. As a hiring manager, if a candidate I extended an offer to, reach back out to me after declining, and said their situation changed, I would consider making a new offer. True you lose negotiating leverage, but I would expect a percentage greater than 0 of companies that would re-engage with you. > Told my friends/family about the job, and that I will be moving to America This is a minor issue. Plans change. They'll get over it. Hopefully they didn't throw you a going-away party yet :) > Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service No good deed goes unpunished. But seriously, you did the right thing by trying to help out this company. I don't see this as a problem. > I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a potential investment into this company ("Use our personal networks" was a key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down I'm sure those same potential investors will circle back around to you, and decline investing, given that you are no longer with the company.
• sergiotapia 12y ago
  Name and shame these guys, totally not cool.
• nilkn 12y ago
  [I've deleted the contents of this post. I apologize to readers for the inconvenience and confusion. I related a story similar to that of the OP but decided I shouldn't post about it here.]
  • TheGunner 12y ago
    Bloody hell, that is horrible, do you mind me asking, if there were performance issues bad enough to pick up on in the first few weeks how were they not picked up on in the interview?
    • eropple 12y ago
      Most companies are worse at interviewing than even they think.
    • nilkn 12y ago
      That's sort of what I was trying to get across in my last paragraph. I consider it a failure of the interview process. Granted, keep in mind that I'm not privy to all the details. He very well may have been granted a generous severance pay-out to ease the burden -- I honestly don't know.
  • bellerocky 12y ago
    I'm curious about what went wrong with the interview and what the performance problems were without being too specific.
• artemk 12y ago
  In addition to what everyone said, for future start up roles, make sure to grill the company on what need they are looking to fill. Go in depth why that's a problem and how they arrived at the needed skillet to be the solution. At start ups every days that's a lightbulb that goes off with the thought "Wish we had someone for this". The smart ones don't rush to hire and see if there's really a need. I was laid off from my first post-college job 2 weeks before I was suppose to start. It was definitely not the way I wanted to start my career. It actually turned out for the best because I ended up going into a completely different industry I really enjoy. Now it's just a professional story I share. No need to stress. Follow up on previous offer to start and all will be good.
• TheGunner 12y ago
  No extra advice here but didn't want to read and run, good luck to you on finding something new. Like others have said, I'm sure there are a few doors still open if you're willing to get back in contact
• balls187 12y ago
  Hypothetical to the larger HN community: If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your initial decision? If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before extending an offer? I know it's not the exact situation as the OP, but situations are rarely so straight forward, and often have nuances that we aren't aware of. To the OP, at the very least, you probably dodged a bullet. So blessing in disguise.
  • govindkabra31 12y ago
    You should actually ask this question before making decision.. and if your take it is that you would renegade on the decision, than you should delay making that decision.. and wait to find out if that dream job with higher pay actually came around. Your current best offer will be willing to stretch out their offer for a week. And the other company will be willing to accelerate their decision process, so as to bridge this two weeks gap. But once you made your decision, you should stick with your decision... at least for a year, all things other than this 'dream job' being equal. The dream company and the dream job-- if you got in today, you are likely going to get that again in a year.
  • bjourne 12y ago
    No the situation isn't analogous at all because unexpectedly losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an employer. A person is made of flesh and blood and can have his or her life shattered. A company is an abstract entity defined by laws.
    • balls187 12y ago
      > losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an employer This is true, but not without context. In my scenario above, the circumstances were similar. 2-3 weeks into a new job. Excluding someone who has been unemployed for an extended period of time, it seems odd that in 2-3 weeks, losing your job would shatter their life. --- And I wouldn't exclude companies for being "shattered" either. It's very possible for companies to be formed around the reputation of a single individual, and if that individual left, would be shattering. Especially in early stages of a financing round.
• JackFr 12y ago
  > I officially joined as the COO. What precisely does that mean? IANAL, but I know that if you and they signed on the dotted line, apart from the ethics, you have legal rights. Probably fewer in the US than other places, but some protection. If nothing was signed, then I don't think you "officially joined" as COO. From their perspective, it might simply be more of an episode of serious miscommunication, than any untoward behavior on their part.
• dinkumthinkum 12y ago
  I think you are being too nice. They have served you very poorly and I don't know if it is helpful to make any excuses or tell everyone how you are. This should have been figured out before they hired. Now, maybe you should not have put all the eggs in this startup basket. I hope you are able to find another position in the area, do t stop trying. Next to e, give yourself time to be "excited" and tell everyone about a new thing.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• eleitl 12y ago
  Did you receive a copy of signed work contract? If not, you have no case.
• angilly 12y ago
  This happens a lot. Mentor whiplash gets the founders all frothy that they need to do X, Y, and Z _immediately_ or their company will fall apart. Unfortunately, it changes to A, B, and C a week later after meetings with another 30 people. These founders aren't bad people. They just have no idea what they're doing. They got shoved into this crazy new accelerator experience, and they're being told by their heroes that they need to XYZ and ABC immediately, and they freak out and they make decisions too quickly. Founders joining accelerators, do yourself a favor: the minute you think you NEED to hire one of those first employees, wait a week. Wait 2. Chat with some people informally. Don't setup a coffee meeting and ambush them with your whole team. Just breathe and take your time. Building your team is the most important thing you are ever going to do. This is not cliche. The process of building one, especially that initial core team, should be respected. Talk to some people. Do some contracts with them. Take it slow. guybrushT, this sucks for you more than most given that you (and your wife!) were moving from another country. The founders should have been more careful. If you still wanna move to the states, I'd more than happy to introduce you to a bunch of startups in Boulder. We're always looking for developers here. Shoot me an email: ryan at ramen dot is.
• davemel37 12y ago
  Lots of back and forth about appearing like a bridge burner. In truth though, regardless of the appearance, bridge burning is never a good idea. NEVER. I personally know a nursing home company that fired an employee in an unprofessional way. 20 years later she became the person in charge of nursing home licensing in that state. Guess whose licenses got revoked?! 20 years later, millions of dollars in losses. That story may be an outlier, I don't know... but a simple evaluation of the risks and benefits of burning this bridge indicate very strongly that you should not burn it. The argument people make about "having the right to know." to be able to avoid that company is really just self-serving curiosity. I am curious too. But...it's really only appropriate to share that info. to an individual, in private, if you feel they are truly at risk of the same unfair treatment. Just my two cents.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• digitalzombie 12y ago
  It's like that in start up in california. Got interviewed, he wanted contract. I told him I'm only looking for permanent. 2 months later, project got cancelled and I got the boot.
• jbarmash 12y ago
  I am surprised nobody mentioned the YC Founder Code of Ethics from earlier this year. http://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/ I'd argue these four bullet points are relevant: -- Treating co-founders and employees with fairness and respect. -- Not behaving in a way that damages the reputation of his/her company or of YC. -- Keeping your word, including honoring handshake deals. -- Generally behaving in an upstanding way. The OP made a serious accusation against a YC company. I assume YC can pretty easily figure out which company this is. I would expect that YC would investigate and take action if warranted.
  • poof131 12y ago
    I agree, especially based on pg's past comments on VCs and handshake deals.[1] This was a handshake deal for employee number 1 and they screwed him. Why it happened we don't know and it could be the right call for both parties. But the manner it happened in is not acceptable behavior. The OP should be compensated appropriately, money and equity. [1] http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/ http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/
  • guybrushT 12y ago
    Thanks for pointing me (and all of us) to this link. A - I love that this exists! B - This needs to be discussed with startups more often by co-founders, employees and investors. I know this is idealistic, but then startups (and people associated with them) often are. Startups can aspire to things/goals that larger companies can't. This (discussion about ethics) is as important, if not more important, than the "How do we grow" discussion.
• freejack 12y ago
  What kind of help or advice are you looking for specifically? Your post doesn't make it clear what you'd like help with. i.e. finding a new job, negotiating a severance package, revenge, moving on, how to best pick up the pieces with your professional network, etc. I'd like to help, but I'd be guessing if I offered any specific guidance.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• sama 12y ago
  hi there. could you email me? maybe i can help. sam@ycombinator
• reality_czech 12y ago
  Well, I'll probably be hellbanned for this, but I don't blame the founders. it's a tiny company with probably a few thousand dollars between them. They made a bad decision, obviously. Does that mean they should go under with the weight of an employee they don't need? You even said that you "found a job that you turned down" earlier. So it sounds like things worked out fine. Of course it was hard on you. But changing a job always is. I don't know what your home country is, but I do know that there are millions of desperately poor unemployed people in India, 25% youth unemployment in Spain, and a pretty tough labor market here in the US for some low-skilled workers. We should be thankful for what we've got. And part of the reason we've got what we have in Sillicon Valley is a culture that allows experimentation. Quickly setting up a company is only possible if you can quickly tear it down or retarget it when things aren't working out. You mentioned that you have a postgraduate degree in management. Well, you should know that what you're getting into when you join a startup is different than if you join a big, established company. Be a man (or woman) about this. Don't ask for special treatment. And for the record, I had an employment offer yanked during the crash of 2001. Fun times.
• salahxanadu 12y ago
  F them. Those guys are jerks. Make sure you get your pay plus your vacation pay plus a severance.
• dxbydt 12y ago
  Was in your shoes two years ago, coincidentally this exact month. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857 Since then, I've met several people who were in the same boat. This sort of stuff seems to happen with regular frequency but is swept up under the rug as if its no big deal. Props for being bold & writing about it. Good luck to you sir! More than the subsequent job-hunt, it was the memory of all those false promises that hurt the most.
• trmchale 12y ago
  To me this is really simple. You should tell Hacker News who the company is. An employee has the right to leave whenever he wants and a company can terminate you whenever it wants. Big companies usually do not fire for no good reason because of liability. Small companies don't have to worry as much because they don't have any money to sue for. However these "good guys" are establishing their corporate culture now, and we hacker don't want to get dicked over too.
• dinkumthinkum 12y ago
  I'm going to tell you this. All those trying to scare you into being a good little child and not "burn" any bridge, I think are being very simplistic. It may show up as some "drama" or it may not but let's be honest people with much more drama in their past than exposing shady business practices are able to have functioning careers. It's your choice but I think the fear is just knee jerk reaction from simple minded thinking. Some potential companies may look favorably on it. Companies are staffed by people, people are diverse in opinions.
• reon_wi 12y ago
  I can't exactly feel what you feel but I share my story anyway as I think it's related albeit less cruel. I was offered a job in Singapore by a start-up. I filled all the legal documents required including the employment pass application that I sent them back. Weeks later I got a standard email from HR saying they offered the job to another candidate. I was shocked they eventually withdrew their offer. The problem was I talked about my friends, family, that I'm moving to Singapore (from Europe). My girlfriend who is living in Singapore was happy, along with me, till the point I told her the offer has been withdrawn. It is interesting to mention that the CTO of the company is the one who had approached me first whether I'm interested in exploring positions with them. However when it comes to withdraw the offer he never turned up. I'm happy I didn't make business with them. I found a much better company to work with and moving to Singapore next week. I wish the best to you, it's for sure you'll overcome this with favorable outcome.
• JackK 12y ago
  The startup life means there's a lot of legal and financial roiling going on at the management level that Employee #1 and below aren't allowed to see. Probably a visa issue. Maybe a money issue (they don't dare admit that to any outsider, and employees are outsiders, so get the polite happy faced response management gives the rest of the world). Probably the all-too-typical inexperienced management issue most startups have. When you choose to join a startup, you have to have a strong tolerance for surprises, some good, many bad. ALL of them are nice-seeming guys (nobody'd work for them otherwise). ALL of them have cool-sounding projects (will they work? Will they step on Big Legal's toes and die in deposition-induced agony? Will another 100 companies jump on the bandwagon before you can get it out there?) It's a VC-self-serving myth that startups are succeeding at an increasing rate. See: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-hasnt-been-disrupted/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-hasnt-... for the actual stats. Keep in mind that chasing startup dreams may not be healthy for family life, especially given that the failure rate for startups has been increasing, not decreasing. Of course, it's always made to sound like success is just around the corner, but your most recent experience should give you a good idea whether your family's risk tolerance makes it worth it to you and those you love. The odds of dreaming turning from a bunch of extreme hidden hard work into extreme hidden burned-out failure are high. The startup world's only prescription for that is that you rest up a bit, then do it again. There's a reason some people take the corporate jobs, save up, and only then follow their dreams. Too many people are wasting their precious youth following the "fail early, fail often" mantra that is counterintuitive for a reason. VCs make their money on the ones that succeed. The ones that fail don't cost VCs all that much, once you start counting actual funded startups that have passed all due dilligence and cashed the check. It's hard to filter out all those who are really only braging about funding on the way, because they've got to be convincing about already having it to have any chance of getting it. But a steep price is being paid in wasted best years caused by startup failures. I count as failures, even these smaller "pivots" such as one where an employee is let go because different talents are needed (their stated reason to you). You wasted your time? No skin off their noses, they get to be the nice guy to somebody else they can use. The startup world's harm is as cruel as any harm the corporate world can do. The startup world is just far less honest about the harm that it does to individual startup employees, preferring to say whatever they need to, keeping everybody's dreams alive until they absolutely can't anymore.
• hpagey 12y ago
  OP, I wanna give you some advice regarding this visa thing, for future reference. As a rule of thumb never resign from your previous position until your visa has been processed. You can always apply for premium processing which is guaranteed to give you results within 15 business days. For example,if you are doing a h1b transfer, please wait for the h1b transfer to complete before you resign from your previous position.