15 ms·

It's Different for Girls

427 points by tkorotkikh 12y ago

dang 12y ago
This is a good, substantive article that draws on long experience. Commenters: before posting, please ensure that your comments are both substantive and civil. You should always do that on HN, but for obvious reasons, this topic requires a reminder.
- Chronic26 12y ago
  Please tell me why this topic deserves more "care" than others posted on HN.
- carrotleads 12y ago
  Well I should have realised that before putting in my comments. Got massive downvotes, the reason seem obvious now. Maybe I should have atleast have been substantive. Ah well, lessons learned.
huu 12y ago
I'd say a man placing her hand in his unzipped pants counts as criminal behavior.
- Swizec 12y ago
  It's also very relaxing. I do it all the time when, say, watching television.
  - cobrausn 12y ago
    You probably misread the previous statement - it says placing her hand in his pants... EDIT: Dear downvoters: This statement is a favor to the guy above me, who probably thought the statement was referring to Al Bundy like behavior of watching TV with hand in pants. EDIT 2: Removing some needless name-calling. Was just annoyed.
    - Swizec 12y ago
      Yup, my bad. Totally read that as him placing his hand in his pants. As in, only one person involved.
      - aaronem 12y ago
        Probably not in a restaurant, though. Dragging the subthread back on topic, while I don't doubt Ms. Roizen or anyone else who describes having encountered such abhorrent behavior, it amazes me every time I hear about it, and not so much because it's sexual assault as because I have such a hard time believing any man, indeed anyone of any sex or gender, could be so incredibly déclassé. I don't know -- maybe it's because I'm gay, or because I gravitate toward the company of people who deport themselves with something which at least vaguely resembles good taste, or I don't know what all, but honestly? Who actually does something like that? Who can even contemplate doing something like that without shriveling in well-deserved shame?
        deleted 12y ago
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        pekk 12y ago
        Given HN's comments above, apparently we are to believe it is all men who do these things, and think women are "bitches" for objecting to them.
  - deleted 12y ago
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- tptacek 12y ago
  It is criminal behavior. In Illinois, the relevant criminal statute is Criminal Sexual Abuse, which is a class-1 felony. Coercing the victim into touching the accused is specifically included.
AngusMcQuarrie 12y ago
Speaking as a privileged cis straight white male under 40 here, can we at least as a community agree to roast assholes who sexually harass our female compatriots alive? If I ever caught someone I know pulling shit like that, I would make it my personal mission to wreck their reputation and end their career. I realize that's not going to level the playing field completely, but I cannot believe stories like this still come out in 2014.
- rafekett 12y ago
  i'm incredibly reluctant to post in threads like this, but I think this attitude is actually hurting diversity in the industry: excessive "chivalry" by males gives more of an illusion of preferential treatment when women stand up to discrimination, which is just more fuel for the gender war fire. women need our support, not our defense. it's fine to be outraged, but your response should not be to go on the offensive.
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - munin 12y ago
    Attitudes like this are why stories like this still happen in 2014.
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      Attitudes like what?
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    If women can't speak up, lest they be further marginalized, and men can't speak up, lest they add more fuel, what can be done?... (Not that I disagree at all! Serious question.)
    - kansface 12y ago
      You are directly responsible for yourself and anyone you employ. You have some responsibility for the actions of those you do business with insomuch as you can stop doing business with them. Lets start here.
news_to_me 12y ago
Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?
- britta 12y ago
  You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training workshop that you can encourage your company (or your friends' companies) to do: http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/ http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - thenmar 12y ago
    I'm curious about how controversial this post seems. It has been bouncing back and forth from light gray to black. Is it that people disagree with educating others? That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair?
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      I generally agree with the parent and I upvoted it, but I did so in spite of having a visceral negative reaction to buzzwords like "allies" (implies that I'm somehow taking a risk/taking sides in a war) and "patriarchy" (vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness).
jawns 12y ago
I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I didn't realize" -- and they won't do it again. Which doesn't necessarily mean that people should always be let off the hook if they say/do something in ignorance; there are some things that one ought not be ignorant about. But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story.
- Swizec 12y ago
  And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.
  - skannamalai 12y ago
    Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is justification "I'm European so..." seems dangerously close to "lighten up" or "get a sense of humor". It's fine to put yourself out there on a joke, humor is hard, but rewarding. But when someone takes offense, I find it problematic when all of a sudden it's their problem for not getting your style or sense of humor. When a privileged person is forced to check their privilege and they respond with "oh, my bad, I didn't realize, etc." I accept maybe they don't have the experience or perspective that comes with being disenfranchised in that particular regard. When they respond with "lighten up" I find there is no attempt to internalize why someone could feel sadness, or discomfort, or frustration about the offensive topic at hand.
joelrunyon 12y ago
> That is why I encourage my fellow female trailblazers to look for the intent behind the words. Offensive language is often unintentional, and sometimes you can turn an awkward situation into a bonding experience. This is probably the most common-sense, insightful piece of advice that our news cycle does its best to make people forget.
- thenmar 12y ago
  Perhaps, but taking it at face value is dangerously close to thinking it's okay to tell somebody to "man up" or "laugh it off" when they're offended by sexist/racist/offensive comments. Remember, in her example, she says, "I already knew Brad as a great guy and a huge supporter of women". It's not license to tell someone they shouldn't feel offended.
- jordo37 12y ago
  I agree that this is balanced advice, but I worry that it is actually another way of masking the problem. In the example she gave with Brad Feld, his response to her critique wasn't really LESS sexist, just more absurd. That may just be an issue with the the example though. In a broader sense, intent is nearly impossible to determine, and it's dangerous to put the responsibility for understanding intent on the party that is being offended. I edited a comics section in college, and I am not sure how I feel to this day around the nature of offense and intent, but taken to an extreme this feels similar to someone telling girls to dress conservatively to avoid rape - its not HER job or MY job to make sure that something dumb is not done by another party.
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    > to look for the intent behind the words It's just giving the benefit of the doubt - not attributing malice to what might be just ignorance. I think it was a refreshingly balanced perspective.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    Her critique? The way I read it, I interpreted as a joke on her part, which he in turn bounced off of. What is sexist about "sitting here with our dick in our hands", anyway? Does it say that men are better because they have... dicks to hold on to? That she doesn't have a dick so she can't join in some literal circle jerk later? It's an expression. Sure, it's "othering" in a sense, but all it really is as an expression of a sentiment of passiveness and inactivity. I think most people have felt passive and complacent at some point.
ProAm 12y ago
Not that it ties directly to this article but Ive always found the quote "Judge people by their intentions, not by their actions" to help me quite a bit in the professional world. People can often be frustrating, counter-productive, or as in the case of this article sexist, but sometimes they don't mean to be. When you have to deal with others try and look at what they were intending to do not necessarily the results of what they did. EDIT I bring this up because of how she ended her blog post and felt it was relevant.
- abracar 12y ago
  Right - I also find it helpful to judge them for their actions in general, and not just for one stupid thing they may say.
  - Mz 12y ago
    "Believe your eyes over your ears," so to speak. It's a good rule of thumb.
- mherkender 12y ago
  I sorta disagree, actions are what really matter. I think it's good to cut people slack and avoid grudges/judgement in general, but how are we supposed to deal with society-level problems if each example of the problem can be written off as a well-intentioned mistake?
  - ProAm 12y ago
    I can see where you are coming from but if you boil people down to being good or evil (over generalizing), who do you want on your side? There are people who purposely intend to do bad things and do, and there are people who mean to do good things and do bad. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, and results don't always come out as intended. But the people who intentionally act on bad intent are never people you want to work with. To come back to your original statement actions are not what matters in the end (in relation to what hacker news represents) but results are. In the end we all want positive results, but we are all people, and good people will always get you closer to your goal than bad people.
bsirkia 12y ago
Very refreshing read for a few reasons: - The use of specific examples, rather than broad generalizations. - Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude). - Acknowledging that even she has made some un-PC comments unintentionally. - Not offering any silver bullet solution, because there isn't one. As a white guy, hearing stories like this are really helpful at getting a sense of what real world challenges women face in the entrepreneurship/tech world.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  > Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude). _what???_ You think INTENT was the difference between those two situations? You really don't see any inherent difference between using an expression that involves genitals but doesn't have anything to do with them and...sexually assaulting by forcing them to touch your genitals? The difference between those two examples had nothing to do with intent or attitude, but the actual action itself was explicitly malevolent in the latter case while accidentally offensive at worst in the former.
aasarava 12y ago
She makes a really good point about pausing to evaluate the intent behind the words -- and even using the opportunity to educate -- rather than always assuming the worst. But did anyone else feel that Brad Feld was very, very lucky that it was Heidi Roizen in the room and not someone less forgiving when he said, "well if you need a dick to hold you can borrow mine anytime"? What Brad did in that one comment was underscore the power differential in the room between a number of males and a lone female who had just said she feels "very uncomfortable" (even if she couched it as a joke so as not to rock the boat.) Worse yet, Brad was essentially saying, you're here to service the males. Again, it was a comment made as a joke -- but what a crappy joke, to point out that there's an implicit hierarchy in the room. The only way I can see how that comment would not have made a woman in the room very uncomfortable (or even any respectful male), is if he said it sardonically to make fun of guys who do say things like that without realizing why it's not acceptable. EDIT: There are a lot of responses analyzing this particular situation and pointing out that Heidi said she wasn't uncomfortable. My point is not about Brad & Heidi, it is that you can't take this one very particular relationship and setting and extrapolate anything from it. The risk of misreading the situation and making someone feel harassed is so high and happens so often, that sexual innuendo in a professional setting is a bad idea. You can find another way to break the tension or team-build.
- marssaxman 12y ago
  She did not seem to interpret the joke the way in the way that you are doing here. As with most humor, we can assume that a lot of the meaning had to do with tone and body language, and she describes the "borrow mine" comment as something which defused the tension created by an earlier remark.
  - Udo 12y ago
    That's exactly what I found so strange about this article. In his first remark the dick is clearly a figure of speech. In this case it's maybe an unfortunate phrase but it doesn't really exclude people without male genitalia (because it's not really about those). His second remark, however, is clearly innuendo. And that was described as having diffused the situation. As a reader, the first remark did not affect me, but this second one absolutely does feel weird and inappropriate. All of which probably illustrates that I lack social awareness, but for some reason I find this example very confusing.
Mz 12y ago
It pains and somewhat embarrasses me that I am not recommending calling out bad behavior and shaming the individual or individuals responsible. In a perfect world people would have to account for their behavior. But as an entrepreneur who spent years in a daily battle for existence, I did not feel like I could afford the hit I’d take in exposing these incidents. I agree with her and I blog about such things. I could not have returned to Hacker News had I begun attacking men publicly for some of the shit that has gone down. I am glad to be back and I think I did the right thing, not "morally" but pragmatically. In many situations, my answer is, you have to simply walk away. I am still working on trying to blog about other options, not just walking away and not having a shitshow. I struggle with it. My last few posts on the topic have not gotten any attention. I wish I knew how to get some additional feedback so I could figure out how to communicate more effectively. Some of that is just happenstance -- I have had a rough month and just haven't been at my best for writing -- but some of that is that many of the things I want to discuss frequently either get attacked or dismissed. It is thus difficult to get good constructive feedback. It is such a hot button issue for so many people. Perhaps in the future I can figure out how to invite more meaty discussion and feedback. I am certainly not just looking for fanlike adulation and the opposite -- the ugly attacks, where my thoughts are not taken seriously at all -- is generally useless for determining how to communicate more effectively. I am glad to see this here. She was a CEO and has bigger public accomplishments under her belt (than I do). It gives some of the principles I am trying to promote more credibility. My lack of public stature makes it all too easy for a lot of people to ignore and dismiss me.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  I am still working on trying to blog about other options, not just walking away and not having a shitshow. I struggle with it. My last few posts on the topic have not gotten any attention. I would maintain that her blogging about her experience is "not just walking away" and is "not having a sideshow." The feminist movement produced tremendous cultural benefits through "consciousness raising" and I think consciousness raising worthy of the name is a good thing as any truth revealing self-examination is. Unfortunately, some of what happened under that rubric has devolved into labeling and name calling. (Granted, this could be an effect of the most strident voices being the least valuable.) The population as a whole has to be actively brought into such consciousness raising for it to benefit society as a whole. Also, I don't think that it can happen under something called "feminism" in a manner that's non-sexist any more than "mankind" can represent all of Homo sapiens in a non-sexist manner. I think there are some valid points raised by "Men's Rights" activists, but I see so much angry and anti-intellectual nonsense from under that banner. I wish there were an egalitarian movement.
throwwwaya2 12y ago
I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective. That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women. I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective. I was in LOVE with the idea of the Bay Area tech-start-up culture - it's incredibly magnetic. Within a month I'd closed a major deal with a new client - they'd just raised tens-of-millions in venture money from prominent VCs, the CEO was very visible in the SF bay start-up culture, etc. I was living the dream - everything in their office was just as I imagined, the people were all hip and fresh and liberal-earthy-but-wise-and-techie just as I'd hoped. Then the work day ended and I was invited out to drinks to celebrate our deal with the "boys" from the office. Drinks led to more drinks, led to a strip club, led to the CEO literally going home with a hooker (and he was dating another prominent valley founder at the time no less). And nobody batted an eye. Like the author I don't quite know how to wind this up other than to say this is a two way street. And the more time I spend with rich and powerful SV men, the more I see a "women as toys" culture perpetuated. Yes, we're all human susceptible to our very human flaws and needs, but it's insane how completely acceptable sexualized behavior is behind the scenes.
- abracar 12y ago
  I don't see how that would be a rebuttal, but from what you say it could be interesting to read.
  - throwwwaya2 12y ago
    Good point, edited my first sentence.
- nollidge 12y ago
  How is this a rebuttal? If anything, this furthers the author's case. EDIT: nevermind, the language was fixed.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  >And the more time I spend with rich and powerful SV men, the more I see a "women as toys" culture perpetuated. // Isn't this "just" the distasteful behaviour of rich and powerful people. Don't rich and powerful people who engage in all types of sexual behaviours, of both sexes, objectify people. When a rich and powerful woman goes to a strip club, or uses a prostitute or engages in drunken fornication do we demand that her industry sector be reformed? What I mean to say is, is this issue really about men being obnoxious or is it about rich people being obnoxious and those rich people happen to be men? [It's a question, not a supposition. I find all such behaviour to be abhorrent FWIW]
rfrey 12y ago
Judging others by their intentions seems like good advice in general, not just for offensive speech. Goodness knows I've been judging myself by intention more than deed for over 40 years. It's probably a courtesy I could extend to others more often.
- wutbrodo 12y ago
  It's sad that we've looped around to needing to specify this in interactions, when it used to be simply something that decent human beings did. It seems like the need to remind people to do so is only necessary in the (relatively) recent context of "the goodness or badness of your actions should be judged by how other people reacted to them".
jacquesm 12y ago
Incredibly classy of her to not name & shame the bad guys but to accent the good ones. Kudos. Also, the behavior of some of those guys is absolutely shocking, I'm sorry to say I never suspected it to be this bad at that level. Call me naive.
- arrrg 12y ago
  Would you have a problem with someone naming those responsible? It is obviously wrong to demand of victims to take specific actions (or not). Telling a victim (especially one you do not know personally) what to do is definitely never ok. At most you might recommend a certain action, but depending on how that is framed such a recommendation might already be problematic. That said, I’m not sure I see the problem with naming those who are responsible. Had she done that I really don’t see what would be wrong about that.
  - Mz 12y ago
    That said, I’m not sure I see the problem with naming those who are responsible. One of the problems with naming names is that there are two sides to every story, so it tends to lead to "he said, she said" and tends to get very ugly -- the man has reason to defend himself and often feels he didn't do anything wrong and may not have been intentionally bad. Another is that the woman who does so harms her own reputation. Who the hell will want to work with her if they know that should they crack an off color joke or make some other faux pas, she will go all SJW on them and seek to publicly hang them high? Women are never going to get anywhere if they continue to jump on their high horse every time they have a run in with some guy. It is the men who have power. We (women -- as I am one) have to find a way to work with them if we want to get anywhere. And learning to sidestep trouble and frame things as innocently as they are reasonably able to be framed is a path forward. Jumping to ugly conclusions and starting a shitshow every time something happens is not. The author was a CEO who apparently did multi-million dollar deals. I suspect she knows whereof she speaks. The shitshows we have seen posted to HN mostly seem to be women who are less successful than that. I say this as someone who was molested and raped as a kid, who talks openly about that fact and what it did to me yet I have protected the identities of the perpetrators, for quite a lot of reasons. So this is something I have firsthand experience with. The other problem is that naming names tends to not let it be a growth experience for men who screwed up because they just did not know any better. We all inherit an awful lot of shit culturally (I grew up in the deep south -- here is me talking about stupid racist assumptions I did not know I had and how I became aware of them: http://ask.metafilter.com/261222/How-can-I-practice-gratitude-while-recognizing-and-fighting-injustice#3794660 http://ask.metafilter.com/261222/How-can-I-practice-gratitud...) You have to start with the assumption that men are just as much a victim of circumstance as women if we are ever going to find a path forward. Once you out a man, he is publicly branded. Once that is done, he is much more likely to feel compelled to justify his actions to himself. That means he is likely to keep being an asshole and not become more sensitive to the issue. That does not let us, as a culture, move forward. Nailing men to the cross for relatively harmless assholery keeps all of us, as a group, pinned in place. I would like to move forward. The status quo sucks. I do not wish to do anything which prevents progress. I am not saying that names should never be named. But the kinds of things described in the article, while definitely deal-breakers socially and in terms of business, are relatively harmless. She is not talking about being beaten and raped. She is not talking about the sort of thing that would justify calling the police and having him charged, criminally.
needacig 12y ago
There is a related HN post a few pages away for the curious: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7686491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7686491
protomyth 12y ago
"Again, not criminal behavior. I suffered a few unwelcome gropes at late-night Comdex parties and the like, but never felt like I was in danger and I was always able to walk away unharmed." An unwelcome grope is criminal behavior.
TodPunk 12y ago
I like this article specifically because it is the only APPROPRIATE level of "women have it different" I've ever seen (I don't read a lot on the topic, to be fair). It doesn't detract from men (or even compare to them), it doesn't say how it must be if you are a woman, it's just saying "there's things here, they happen, it should be something we're aware of and probably keep in mind." That level headed attitude is the right thing to engender and bring to the discussion.
bobbles 12y ago
Jesus, the profile pic she is using here is 2000x3008 and just rendered as a 1-inch wide circle.
- mr_schnippel 12y ago
  cut her some slack, she's just a woman :D
enraged_camel 12y ago
I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that the vast majority of guys I talk to about this topic are simply not aware that women, especially attractive women, go through stuff like this all the time. So when they hear women complaining about discrimination, harassment, glass ceilings, and so on, they think those women are simply "being bitchy." Which simply perpetuates and intensifies the status quo.
- ars 12y ago
  Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. I'm really curious about the numbers here - what percent of women have ever agreed to such offers for the purpose of getting ahead (at any point in their lifetime). I'm hoping the number is in the single digits, because if it's higher this type of harassment will never stop.
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. Oh yeah, that's another thing that happens: when a good-looking woman is successful, others (men and not-so-good-looking women) will assume she must have done sexual favors for someone in power - as opposed to because she's smart and capable. (You may have asked the question innocently, but... there be dragons.)
    - oh_sigh 12y ago
      You can't argue that men generally aren't aware that a lot of sexual harassment takes place against women or attractive women, and also that they would assume that when they do come into power that they got ahead by accepting sexual harassment.
mhewett 12y ago
This is not intended to diminish the perfectly valid stories in her blog, but about 30 years ago I went to a Silicon Valley talk where Heidi Roizen was the featured speaker. Minutes before the talk started she swept into the room surrounded by a half-dozen very handsome young guys in designer suits, all smiling beautifully. It was exactly the same as if some older guy had showed up surrounded by models in Versace dresses. I thought it was very inappropriate and lost some respect for her. Of course, I may have interpreted it incorrectly...perhaps there is another explanation for the entourage of young men accompanying her.
ars 12y ago
Was the question about the baby really so bad? It seemed to me like the person asking about it tried as hard as he could to ask it in a positive way (i.e. not accusatory, but offering opportunity to explain).
- rando289 12y ago
  The bit about her losing interest was clearly without tact. Like asking "are you going to love your baby more than your company?" However, I think tactfully having and voicing concern of how the pregnancy would affect her job performance in a ceo to investor meeting was valid. I wasn't sure myself, so I did a few google searches and which came up with headlines like "Why 43% of Women With Children Leave Their Jobs, and How to Get Them Back", and the legal right for 3 months of maternity leave in the US. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder what kind of preparation the company has to handle these issues.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Yes. In an employment setting, it's an unlawful question. The reason it's unlawful to ask a job candidate the question is the same reason that it's unethical to ask a prospective investment target: the premise of the question is bogus, and rebutting it requires the candidate to explain and defend private child care and home life arrangements. Offering a candidate an "opportunity to explain" a question that shouldn't have been asked in the first place isn't a positive thing.
  - ShardPhoenix 12y ago
    It's obviously a reasonable question and the fact that it's illegal to ask is outrageous.
    - kaitai 12y ago
      There was a bunch of discussion of good intentions above. You're one of those people who may or may not have good intentions, but as a woman who might someday have a kid, you make me angry. People like you make me REALLY angry. It's reasonable to doubt my interest in my own f(&ing company, it's reasonable to think I'll suddenly get stupid for hormonal reasons and won't be able to deal with business, it's reasonable... what? Do you not think I'm an intelligent being who has thought about the ramifications of having a kid and running a business? Do you think that it's just some sort of thing that I don't even notice until pop I have a squalling child and then I'm all like wow my brain has turned into maternal mush and I never even expected that! Unlike men who just do stupid business s#(& for rational reasons, like wanting to buy a yacht or upgrade the girlfriend or plain old greed. You don't even give men the credit of asking them if they might pay enough attention to their own kids to lose a moment's focus when one is born. People like you see stupidity, lack of focus, and incompetence in men as simply individual traits. At the same time you treat women as some sort of broad idiot class, implying that women need to justify to you that popping out a kid won't jeopardize the business. You're the reason one of my friends in grad school wouldn't tell anyone she was pregnant for months and months and months, so that no one would deny her a research or teaching assignment or put her on some involuntary leave. edited for asterisks. And one last comment: if you think the woman you are doing business with is not good at business, stop doing business with her. If you think she is, give her enough respect to figure she'll deal with children appropriately, and don't ask stupid questions about whether she'll lose interest in her own company. If you want to ask who will handle x business aspect if she takes leave, that's fine, as it is not a stupid question.
deleted 12y ago
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reshambabble 12y ago
I am so glad articles like these are coming out. It's brave to reveal these intimate and embarrassing situations. I wonder how things would have gone if she or another man in the room had reacted. I think there is a need for women (and men!!) to stand up for women rather than just "walk away." Could you just imagine what that meeting would have been like if a male employee just said, "seriously?" and walked away instead of Heidi walking away?
transfire 12y ago
Attractive woman are going to have such problems as a matter of course. Men are attracted to woman primarily based on their looks and confident men are going to act on their desires. If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to make yourself look unattractive. You can't have it both ways. You can't lure a client with your looks and then always expect totally platonic behavior from them. And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. Mother Nature quite clearly has other designs.
- fmdud 12y ago
  Sorry, this is a pretty fucking horrible comment. >You can't lure a client with your looks >And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. It's perfectly reasonable to expect men to not commit sexual assault in the workplace. What world are you living in where anything like this is remotely acceptable?
  - pekk 12y ago
    You are right that it's a completely horrible comment. But even so, where did he say that we should expect men to "commit sexual assault" in the workplace? Flirting with someone or asking them to coffee is not sexual assault, though it is inappropriate for the workplace.
    - fmdud 12y ago
      I've seen this argument so many times at this point they blur into one. It's a watered down version of "She was asking for it" when talking about about a rape case. The way someone looks or the clothes they have on doesn't give you carte blanche to harass/assault them. I'll show you what I mean: >If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to make yourself look unattractive. This is the exact same kind of victim blaming as in "She was asking for it". He's telling women to make themselves look unattractive, implying that they are partially to blame for their own harassment because of what they were wearing, or how they looked. Saying "well, it's bound to happen" isn't good enough. >You can't have it both ways. >And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. These two quotes both show that he really is talking about harassment and assault. The OP article wasn't talking about relatively harmless (if inappropriate) workplace flirting; some couples meet at work. That happens. The difference is that those kind of things generally begin with very subtle signals over an extended period of time. The context of this article, this thread, and implicitly this comment (by explicitly agreeing that women are asking for this harassment to stop) is one of harassment and assault. >You can't lure a client with your looks and then always expect totally platonic behavior from them. >Mother Nature quite clearly has other designs. I don't need to break this down. It's so shitty.
cube_yellow 12y ago
This is a women in her 50s trying to make herself feel like she's still attractive to men, and almost everyone in the plea is borderline autistic. That's fine though, because every women without an attractive husband eventually does that, and tech attracts people with low social skills. Considering recent trends, this is a perfectly appropriate article for HN.
ElComradio 12y ago
I won't accept "it's harder for women in business" because it is impossible to actually demonstrate and it devolves into a pissing contest about who has a greater frequency of unpleasant experiences with coworkers, partners and clients. It is also impossible to balance that against reasons it is easier for the genders. How often did Heidi have an easier time being trusted or otherwise "invited in" because of being an attractive woman? No one can really claim to know who has it easier at the end of the day. What is true is that it is different.
jonathankoren 12y ago
I really wish she would name names. This sort of conduct shouldn't be tolerated.
- Aloisius 12y ago
  Agreed. Frankly, the hands on the crotch moved well past shouldn't-be-tolerated and to should-have-been-prosecuted. I know it is a hassle dealing with the police and the legal system, but good god until a few of these assholes get publicly shamed and thrown in jail for a while, I'm not sure we're ever going to be rid of them.
mkempe 12y ago
Walking away silently is not the appropriate response. Tolerating a colleague's obscene language isn't either. In both cases, the outcome is that the perpetrator is going to repeat the same offensive behaviour. People who are offensive should be shunned and told why they are shunned. If they are borderline criminal, others should be told about them. If they are criminal, government should be involved. Being afraid of what others will think, or of them potentially closing their doors (why?), is a sanction of evil and encourages further victimization.
- mkempe 12y ago
  To those who downvoted my comment without argument: what I said is outrageous? unacceptable? men who physically assault women or treat them as purely sexual objects should be tolerated? am I missing something?
  - wpietri 12y ago
    It's certainly not very thoughtful or empathetic. It's easy for you to say what other people should do. But if somebody has been harassed or sexually assaulted, reporting it or suing has to be up to them. There are enormous personal consequences to doing so. Blaming people who decide not to do that is putting an additional unfair burden on somebody who has already been victimized.
    - mkempe 12y ago
      You assume and assert so wrongly that I have not put much thought in what I said, and that I don't have empathy for the victims. I've witnessed and been subjected to harassment. These stories, and now your comment, make me viscerally sick.
      - wpietri 12y ago
        In which case, you'll need to write your point better. People can't react to what's in your head, just what's on the page. What I said is a pretty common response to your point, and often comes from people who have been through the wringer: not just the initial harassment, but also the enormous difficulty of speaking up. Read more on the topic and you'll see what I mean.
orionblastar 12y ago
It is the same for men in some situations. When I worked my male bosses asked me to give them a blowjob in exchange for a promotion or drop my pants and be sodomized instead. I refused and was never promoted. They told me they did this with everyone. I complained to HR, but they refused to do anything about it. I don't really consider myself an attractive man, I think they were doing it to be mean and have some dirt on me. In order to be promoted they need dirt on you to keep you in their control. It is more of a bully and domination thing. Manager of HR, said she would fix it if I slept with her, by the way. You will find that a lot in big businesses, smaller businesses not so much. Which is why I try to startup my own small business and never do those things and go by ability to do the job, experience, talent, and skills as well for promoting people.
- kansface 12y ago
  Why didn't you go the police instead of HR?
_tlf7 12y ago
I was so happy this was published. As a female founder, the grossest things happen. It sucks, there are some VC firms where I no longer feel safe attending their events. I don't get why men I ask for business help to this day still feel comfortable asking me out knowing that a) I'm a very vocal feminist and b) I state very clearly that I need business assistance.
frozenport 12y ago
>>My partners are concerned that when you have this baby you are going to lose interest in the company and not be a good CEO As a practical matter this is a legitimate question. For example, "why are you taking this job when you plan to be busy for the next 6 months?" (or even longer).
- tptacek 12y ago
  No, it isn't a legitimate question. In fact, in an employment setting, it's an unlawful question. It presumes that the interviewer can extrapolate from the probably irrelevant detail of someone's pregnancy status to their ability to perform after the birth; refuting that bogus extrapolation requires the candidate to explain and defend their child care arrangements and home life. As a practical matter, if someone in my company asked a candidate a question like that, premised on the candidate's ability to perform a job based on pregnancy status, I would fire the interviewer --- both because they were playing games with the most important function of the firm, and because they'd have exposed us to legal risk.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    I once thought that everyone knew not to ask things like this, but people don't. Story: at a friend's place of employment, they were having an interview for a secretary, as the previous two secretaries had both left after their maternity leaves. During a group interview, one guy asks a candidate "hey, you're not planning on getting pregnant, are you?" Did I mention this was at a law firm, and that the guy asking this was a lawyer? Yeah. The poo instantly hit the fan from about a billion different directions. Everyone in the room, not just the guy who asked the question, got a very very long talk with HR. It entered company lore as "really stupid and expensive mistake this one guy did." Whenever I'm on the questioning side, I always go over this with my coworkers.
  - dingaling 12y ago
    As a man I have been asked whether my performance at work has been affected by raising children. When I made a mistake I was asked 'Are your children affecting your sleep? Perhaps you should take some time off as you seem to be losing focus.' Other feedback that came in was 'He seems disinterested in the tasks assigned' with the implication that my children were more interesting than my work ( which of course they are ). Would you also fire anyone who asked those questions of a man?
_tlf7 12y ago
I'm a woman who is new to hacker news. I've been told I have to be on this thing if I ever want to apply for YC. I don't know if I'll ever do that but I don't want to ruin that opportunity. I've been reading through all these comments and a lot of them make me sick to my stomach. Articles that surround women in the work force interest me because my startup is in this space, but at what cost of my sanity do I have to put up with all these sexist comments to have value to this community?
- dang 12y ago
  I'm very sorry. Many of these comments have made me sick to my stomach, too. And also ashamed. (I'm one of the moderators of HN.) You don't have to be active on HN to apply for YC. There's a technical requirement to have an account, just because YC's software systems were built that way, but there's definitely no requirement beyond that. I hope you'll participate, but if this has been your introduction to the "community" I can understand why you might not want to.
  - abracar 12y ago
    Thanks for saying that. Still, it may not be how applicants see it. For instance my take from PG's "How to apply" (http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html) was that posting here could definitely be a plus — and that's one of the reasons why your role is so important. I know sama mentioned improving the quality of HN comments as part of the roadmap for YC to get to fund more women and I couldn't agree more.
  - _tlf7 12y ago
    thanks for this info. Still new to this site and I'd like to be more active in the community but it's good to know it's not a strict requirement.
- Mz 12y ago
  I just tweeted you with a link to my blog because it was the only contact info in your profile. HN used to be a lot rougher. I probably have the second highest karma of any openly female member. I used to get badly raked over the coals. I think a) yeah, there is room for improvement on HN b) I have been in even worse sexist business/professional situations, so it took me a while to connect the dots and realize it was a sexism thing. So I think you probably do need a thick skin and more savvy about how to deal with such things if you are going to make it in business. This is really not that horrible, in the grand scheme of things. Sorry you are having some trouble with it. (I would have emailed you these remarks, but, again, no ready means to do so.)
rando289 12y ago
I like the article, but I must point out this one thing I don't want it to perpetuate. “Every time I see the word ‘Girl’ used in scenarios that are supposed to empower women, it really grates on me,” http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-ladies-folks-heres-a-visual-guide-to-what-you-should-call-that-group-of-individuals/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-lad... It bothers me too. "A girl is any female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl
orky56 12y ago
We are in the 21st century, everyone knows right from wrong, and we're still in this situation of sex & sexism in the workplace? Despite the rise of anonymous, democratic, and free voice, whistleblowers still have more to worry about than ever. Majority of rape incidents go unreported, sexual harassment to males is increasing, and we are creating tools to draw people together. If the culture is to change, common decency, morals, and ethics need to be emphasized consistently throughout age, career, and power progression. As we saw with Dropbox and Mozilla, public outrage has an effect and upper management has to address these concerns. Founders need to create the culture of transparency over even matters like this. People need to call each other out when words come out like "Which girl in the office would you like to...?" At the end of the day, you have to choose whether your opposite sex coworkers are your family or friends.
JDDunn9 12y ago
Perhaps if we legalized prostitution it would decrease incidents like this. We know that as pornography consumption increases, violent sex crimes decrease. It's plausible that giving people a legal outlet would make them less likely to sexually harass others. Then it shifts the costs to the men rather than on the women of society.
vii 12y ago
Articles like this just reinforce stereotypes (women as victims) without recognising the reality that men can also be victims (of male or female abusers). This makes it even harder for men who are victimized to come forward. There are plenty of studies which show that men are very unlikely to report sexual assault -- for example, recently http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_... Sexual harassment is an important issue; but it affects both genders. Starting out with examples of unwelcome sexual touching in the workplace and saying "it's different for girls" drags the debate back twenty years. I'm a man and I've faced unwelcome touching in the workplace and I'm sure I'm not exceptional.
- wpietri 12y ago
  "What about the men!" is a deeply disappointing response here. Yes, men can also be victims. And it's also important to fix that. But you can make that point without instantly demanding equal air time or suggesting that a woman telling stories about her life is placing an enormous burden on you.
elchief 12y ago
I'm old now, but when I was a younger man, I was something to look at. I got sexual come-ons and innuendos by female and gay male coworkers all the time. It's not a "girl thing", it's an "I'm attractive thing". It goes away. Guys also like to make dick jokes. Because dick jokes are funny. See Louis CK net worth. And guys build rapport by being funny. I showed a guy at work my Chromecast. "It's smaller than I thought". "That's what she said", I replied. Laughs by all genders. Accept dick jokes. Punish actual harrassment. Don't think it only happens to women.
robobro 12y ago
How exactly is this "news"? What does it have to do with "hacking"?
- abracar 12y ago
  from HN's FAQ: "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
- wpietri 12y ago
  Yes, there's no possible way a VC talking about making deals and raising investment could possibly be related to a site about startups. /me rolls his eyes.
javert 12y ago
If you compare an "ideal" man with an "ideal" woman, being a woman is, arguably, a disadvantage. But the vast majority of real men and women are not "ideal." For instance, what if you are a black man? What if you are short? What if you don't have the right "swagger"? What if you visit the VC when he happens to be having a bad day? What if you have a different accent? This is why feminism is ridiculously unfair to all men except the "ideal" men, and also not applicable to the vast majority of women, who are not "ideal" women.
- wpietri 12y ago
  I have heard a lot of ridiculous arguments about feminism, but this one at least has the virtue of being novel. It's still not very interesting, though. If you were to read as much as a book on feminism, you'd know that there are reasonable answers to these questions.
  - javert 12y ago
    Can you give me an example of a reasonable answer to this? And if my argument is novel, I'm not sure how a book on feminism could have already answered it.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      Sorry, the last line was the novel part. The "what about people of differing levels of privilege" bit is standard and well answered. No advantage is absolute, and all generalizations describe tendencies. That there is also white privilege or tall privilege doesn't negate that their is male privilege, or prevent people from thinking about it. So as a white guy, there are many circumstances where I get boosts from one, the other, or both that non-white, non-guy people may not get. There are some circumstances where being a fat person costs me, but that doesn't erase the advantages from being male. Some sorts of feminism focus purely on the male-female issues. That's often fine; the problems, evidence, and solutions are often specific, and there's plenty to deal with. Others view various sorts of prejudice as part of a connected system. You can read about intersectional feminism for more: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Intersectionality http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Intersectionality
Ransom_ 12y ago
When thinking about my female friends, it is hard to believe that this is the type of crap that they will most likely, scratch that, will experience. I can keep my actions in check, call people out on theirs, but it just doesn't seem like it's enough.
facepalm 12y ago
It sounds as if it sucks to be attractive. I am not convinced that it doesn't still suck more to be unattractive (as in male). There are no interesting stories to be told. You don't rant about the awful party - you weren't invited to the party to begin with. Those experiences she describes sure sound awful, but they are the extreme end. In between there are probably lots of encounters that she get because non-creepy people were attracted to her. Maybe people even rationalize they like her startups because they like her. Men also get rejected from VC companies all the time. Also if I would witness men doing awful stuff to women, I wouldn't want to work with them either.
RDeckard 12y ago
Strong white-knighting in this commentary.
jdhzzz 12y ago
I find the phrase "Tits up" simultaneously offensive and hilarious. Thinking of saying it in front of my mother tilts me more towards offensive, but I still smile...
Holbein 12y ago
"Men categorize women in one of four ways: Mothers. Virgins. Sluts. and Bitches. Of course none of the above is suitable for the modern business woman. But, you can create your own image by selecting pieces of each archetype suitable for you. For example, the sexual attractiveness of the slut. The wisdom of the mother. The integrity of the virgin. The independence of the bitch. This leaves men confused and unable to pigeonhole you. They are forced instead, to take you seriously." From "Syrup" (2013), Amber Heard, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO8jBcL0oAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO8jBcL0oAQ Not saying this is the solution. You should get respected no matter what. But... if everybody you meet is a shallow asshole, why not start manipulating them?
yaelwrites 12y ago
I just have to say how nice it is to read a discussion about this topic that's productive and supportive. I guess the new H/N algorithm that I whined about is actually working. :)

427 points by tkorotkikh 12y ago

dang 12y ago

This is a good, substantive article that draws on long experience. Commenters: before posting, please ensure that your comments are both substantive and civil. You should always do that on HN, but for obvious reasons, this topic requires a reminder.

Chronic26 12y ago
Please tell me why this topic deserves more "care" than others posted on HN.
carrotleads 12y ago
Well I should have realised that before putting in my comments. Got massive downvotes, the reason seem obvious now. Maybe I should have atleast have been substantive. Ah well, lessons learned.

huu 12y ago

I'd say a man placing her hand in his unzipped pants counts as criminal behavior.

Swizec 12y ago
It's also very relaxing. I do it all the time when, say, watching television.
- cobrausn 12y ago
  You probably misread the previous statement - it says placing her hand in his pants... EDIT: Dear downvoters: This statement is a favor to the guy above me, who probably thought the statement was referring to Al Bundy like behavior of watching TV with hand in pants. EDIT 2: Removing some needless name-calling. Was just annoyed.
  - Swizec 12y ago
    Yup, my bad. Totally read that as him placing his hand in his pants. As in, only one person involved.
    - aaronem 12y ago
      Probably not in a restaurant, though. Dragging the subthread back on topic, while I don't doubt Ms. Roizen or anyone else who describes having encountered such abhorrent behavior, it amazes me every time I hear about it, and not so much because it's sexual assault as because I have such a hard time believing any man, indeed anyone of any sex or gender, could be so incredibly déclassé. I don't know -- maybe it's because I'm gay, or because I gravitate toward the company of people who deport themselves with something which at least vaguely resembles good taste, or I don't know what all, but honestly? Who actually does something like that? Who can even contemplate doing something like that without shriveling in well-deserved shame?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - pekk 12y ago
        Given HN's comments above, apparently we are to believe it is all men who do these things, and think women are "bitches" for objecting to them.
- deleted 12y ago
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tptacek 12y ago
It is criminal behavior. In Illinois, the relevant criminal statute is Criminal Sexual Abuse, which is a class-1 felony. Coercing the victim into touching the accused is specifically included.

AngusMcQuarrie 12y ago

Speaking as a privileged cis straight white male under 40 here, can we at least as a community agree to roast assholes who sexually harass our female compatriots alive? If I ever caught someone I know pulling shit like that, I would make it my personal mission to wreck their reputation and end their career. I realize that's not going to level the playing field completely, but I cannot believe stories like this still come out in 2014.

rafekett 12y ago
i'm incredibly reluctant to post in threads like this, but I think this attitude is actually hurting diversity in the industry: excessive "chivalry" by males gives more of an illusion of preferential treatment when women stand up to discrimination, which is just more fuel for the gender war fire. women need our support, not our defense. it's fine to be outraged, but your response should not be to go on the offensive.
- deleted 12y ago
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- munin 12y ago
  Attitudes like this are why stories like this still happen in 2014.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Attitudes like what?
- scott_karana 12y ago
  If women can't speak up, lest they be further marginalized, and men can't speak up, lest they add more fuel, what can be done?... (Not that I disagree at all! Serious question.)
  - kansface 12y ago
    You are directly responsible for yourself and anyone you employ. You have some responsibility for the actions of those you do business with insomuch as you can stop doing business with them. Lets start here.

news_to_me 12y ago

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

britta 12y ago
You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training workshop that you can encourage your company (or your friends' companies) to do: http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/ http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- thenmar 12y ago
  I'm curious about how controversial this post seems. It has been bouncing back and forth from light gray to black. Is it that people disagree with educating others? That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair?
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    I generally agree with the parent and I upvoted it, but I did so in spite of having a visceral negative reaction to buzzwords like "allies" (implies that I'm somehow taking a risk/taking sides in a war) and "patriarchy" (vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness).

jawns 12y ago

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I didn't realize" -- and they won't do it again. Which doesn't necessarily mean that people should always be let off the hook if they say/do something in ignorance; there are some things that one ought not be ignorant about. But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story.

Swizec 12y ago
And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.
- skannamalai 12y ago
  Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is justification "I'm European so..." seems dangerously close to "lighten up" or "get a sense of humor". It's fine to put yourself out there on a joke, humor is hard, but rewarding. But when someone takes offense, I find it problematic when all of a sudden it's their problem for not getting your style or sense of humor. When a privileged person is forced to check their privilege and they respond with "oh, my bad, I didn't realize, etc." I accept maybe they don't have the experience or perspective that comes with being disenfranchised in that particular regard. When they respond with "lighten up" I find there is no attempt to internalize why someone could feel sadness, or discomfort, or frustration about the offensive topic at hand.

joelrunyon 12y ago

> That is why I encourage my fellow female trailblazers to look for the intent behind the words. Offensive language is often unintentional, and sometimes you can turn an awkward situation into a bonding experience. This is probably the most common-sense, insightful piece of advice that our news cycle does its best to make people forget.

thenmar 12y ago
Perhaps, but taking it at face value is dangerously close to thinking it's okay to tell somebody to "man up" or "laugh it off" when they're offended by sexist/racist/offensive comments. Remember, in her example, she says, "I already knew Brad as a great guy and a huge supporter of women". It's not license to tell someone they shouldn't feel offended.
jordo37 12y ago
I agree that this is balanced advice, but I worry that it is actually another way of masking the problem. In the example she gave with Brad Feld, his response to her critique wasn't really LESS sexist, just more absurd. That may just be an issue with the the example though. In a broader sense, intent is nearly impossible to determine, and it's dangerous to put the responsibility for understanding intent on the party that is being offended. I edited a comics section in college, and I am not sure how I feel to this day around the nature of offense and intent, but taken to an extreme this feels similar to someone telling girls to dress conservatively to avoid rape - its not HER job or MY job to make sure that something dumb is not done by another party.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  > to look for the intent behind the words It's just giving the benefit of the doubt - not attributing malice to what might be just ignorance. I think it was a refreshingly balanced perspective.
- Dewie 12y ago
  Her critique? The way I read it, I interpreted as a joke on her part, which he in turn bounced off of. What is sexist about "sitting here with our dick in our hands", anyway? Does it say that men are better because they have... dicks to hold on to? That she doesn't have a dick so she can't join in some literal circle jerk later? It's an expression. Sure, it's "othering" in a sense, but all it really is as an expression of a sentiment of passiveness and inactivity. I think most people have felt passive and complacent at some point.

ProAm 12y ago

Not that it ties directly to this article but Ive always found the quote "Judge people by their intentions, not by their actions" to help me quite a bit in the professional world. People can often be frustrating, counter-productive, or as in the case of this article sexist, but sometimes they don't mean to be. When you have to deal with others try and look at what they were intending to do not necessarily the results of what they did. EDIT I bring this up because of how she ended her blog post and felt it was relevant.

abracar 12y ago
Right - I also find it helpful to judge them for their actions in general, and not just for one stupid thing they may say.
- Mz 12y ago
  "Believe your eyes over your ears," so to speak. It's a good rule of thumb.
mherkender 12y ago
I sorta disagree, actions are what really matter. I think it's good to cut people slack and avoid grudges/judgement in general, but how are we supposed to deal with society-level problems if each example of the problem can be written off as a well-intentioned mistake?
- ProAm 12y ago
  I can see where you are coming from but if you boil people down to being good or evil (over generalizing), who do you want on your side? There are people who purposely intend to do bad things and do, and there are people who mean to do good things and do bad. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, and results don't always come out as intended. But the people who intentionally act on bad intent are never people you want to work with. To come back to your original statement actions are not what matters in the end (in relation to what hacker news represents) but results are. In the end we all want positive results, but we are all people, and good people will always get you closer to your goal than bad people.

bsirkia 12y ago

Very refreshing read for a few reasons: - The use of specific examples, rather than broad generalizations. - Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude). - Acknowledging that even she has made some un-PC comments unintentionally. - Not offering any silver bullet solution, because there isn't one. As a white guy, hearing stories like this are really helpful at getting a sense of what real world challenges women face in the entrepreneurship/tech world.

wutbrodo 12y ago
> Explaining that the intent and attitude of the potential offender makes a huge difference (ie. Feld vs. hand in pants dude). _what???_ You think INTENT was the difference between those two situations? You really don't see any inherent difference between using an expression that involves genitals but doesn't have anything to do with them and...sexually assaulting by forcing them to touch your genitals? The difference between those two examples had nothing to do with intent or attitude, but the actual action itself was explicitly malevolent in the latter case while accidentally offensive at worst in the former.

aasarava 12y ago

She makes a really good point about pausing to evaluate the intent behind the words -- and even using the opportunity to educate -- rather than always assuming the worst. But did anyone else feel that Brad Feld was very, very lucky that it was Heidi Roizen in the room and not someone less forgiving when he said, "well if you need a dick to hold you can borrow mine anytime"? What Brad did in that one comment was underscore the power differential in the room between a number of males and a lone female who had just said she feels "very uncomfortable" (even if she couched it as a joke so as not to rock the boat.) Worse yet, Brad was essentially saying, you're here to service the males. Again, it was a comment made as a joke -- but what a crappy joke, to point out that there's an implicit hierarchy in the room. The only way I can see how that comment would not have made a woman in the room very uncomfortable (or even any respectful male), is if he said it sardonically to make fun of guys who do say things like that without realizing why it's not acceptable. EDIT: There are a lot of responses analyzing this particular situation and pointing out that Heidi said she wasn't uncomfortable. My point is not about Brad & Heidi, it is that you can't take this one very particular relationship and setting and extrapolate anything from it. The risk of misreading the situation and making someone feel harassed is so high and happens so often, that sexual innuendo in a professional setting is a bad idea. You can find another way to break the tension or team-build.

marssaxman 12y ago
She did not seem to interpret the joke the way in the way that you are doing here. As with most humor, we can assume that a lot of the meaning had to do with tone and body language, and she describes the "borrow mine" comment as something which defused the tension created by an earlier remark.
- Udo 12y ago
  That's exactly what I found so strange about this article. In his first remark the dick is clearly a figure of speech. In this case it's maybe an unfortunate phrase but it doesn't really exclude people without male genitalia (because it's not really about those). His second remark, however, is clearly innuendo. And that was described as having diffused the situation. As a reader, the first remark did not affect me, but this second one absolutely does feel weird and inappropriate. All of which probably illustrates that I lack social awareness, but for some reason I find this example very confusing.

Mz 12y ago

It pains and somewhat embarrasses me that I am not recommending calling out bad behavior and shaming the individual or individuals responsible. In a perfect world people would have to account for their behavior. But as an entrepreneur who spent years in a daily battle for existence, I did not feel like I could afford the hit I’d take in exposing these incidents. I agree with her and I blog about such things. I could not have returned to Hacker News had I begun attacking men publicly for some of the shit that has gone down. I am glad to be back and I think I did the right thing, not "morally" but pragmatically. In many situations, my answer is, you have to simply walk away. I am still working on trying to blog about other options, not just walking away and not having a shitshow. I struggle with it. My last few posts on the topic have not gotten any attention. I wish I knew how to get some additional feedback so I could figure out how to communicate more effectively. Some of that is just happenstance -- I have had a rough month and just haven't been at my best for writing -- but some of that is that many of the things I want to discuss frequently either get attacked or dismissed. It is thus difficult to get good constructive feedback. It is such a hot button issue for so many people. Perhaps in the future I can figure out how to invite more meaty discussion and feedback. I am certainly not just looking for fanlike adulation and the opposite -- the ugly attacks, where my thoughts are not taken seriously at all -- is generally useless for determining how to communicate more effectively. I am glad to see this here. She was a CEO and has bigger public accomplishments under her belt (than I do). It gives some of the principles I am trying to promote more credibility. My lack of public stature makes it all too easy for a lot of people to ignore and dismiss me.

stcredzero 12y ago
I am still working on trying to blog about other options, not just walking away and not having a shitshow. I struggle with it. My last few posts on the topic have not gotten any attention. I would maintain that her blogging about her experience is "not just walking away" and is "not having a sideshow." The feminist movement produced tremendous cultural benefits through "consciousness raising" and I think consciousness raising worthy of the name is a good thing as any truth revealing self-examination is. Unfortunately, some of what happened under that rubric has devolved into labeling and name calling. (Granted, this could be an effect of the most strident voices being the least valuable.) The population as a whole has to be actively brought into such consciousness raising for it to benefit society as a whole. Also, I don't think that it can happen under something called "feminism" in a manner that's non-sexist any more than "mankind" can represent all of Homo sapiens in a non-sexist manner. I think there are some valid points raised by "Men's Rights" activists, but I see so much angry and anti-intellectual nonsense from under that banner. I wish there were an egalitarian movement.

throwwwaya2 12y ago

I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective. That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women. I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective. I was in LOVE with the idea of the Bay Area tech-start-up culture - it's incredibly magnetic. Within a month I'd closed a major deal with a new client - they'd just raised tens-of-millions in venture money from prominent VCs, the CEO was very visible in the SF bay start-up culture, etc. I was living the dream - everything in their office was just as I imagined, the people were all hip and fresh and liberal-earthy-but-wise-and-techie just as I'd hoped. Then the work day ended and I was invited out to drinks to celebrate our deal with the "boys" from the office. Drinks led to more drinks, led to a strip club, led to the CEO literally going home with a hooker (and he was dating another prominent valley founder at the time no less). And nobody batted an eye. Like the author I don't quite know how to wind this up other than to say this is a two way street. And the more time I spend with rich and powerful SV men, the more I see a "women as toys" culture perpetuated. Yes, we're all human susceptible to our very human flaws and needs, but it's insane how completely acceptable sexualized behavior is behind the scenes.

abracar 12y ago
I don't see how that would be a rebuttal, but from what you say it could be interesting to read.
- throwwwaya2 12y ago
  Good point, edited my first sentence.
nollidge 12y ago
How is this a rebuttal? If anything, this furthers the author's case. EDIT: nevermind, the language was fixed.
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
>And the more time I spend with rich and powerful SV men, the more I see a "women as toys" culture perpetuated. // Isn't this "just" the distasteful behaviour of rich and powerful people. Don't rich and powerful people who engage in all types of sexual behaviours, of both sexes, objectify people. When a rich and powerful woman goes to a strip club, or uses a prostitute or engages in drunken fornication do we demand that her industry sector be reformed? What I mean to say is, is this issue really about men being obnoxious or is it about rich people being obnoxious and those rich people happen to be men? [It's a question, not a supposition. I find all such behaviour to be abhorrent FWIW]

rfrey 12y ago

Judging others by their intentions seems like good advice in general, not just for offensive speech. Goodness knows I've been judging myself by intention more than deed for over 40 years. It's probably a courtesy I could extend to others more often.

wutbrodo 12y ago
It's sad that we've looped around to needing to specify this in interactions, when it used to be simply something that decent human beings did. It seems like the need to remind people to do so is only necessary in the (relatively) recent context of "the goodness or badness of your actions should be judged by how other people reacted to them".

jacquesm 12y ago

Incredibly classy of her to not name & shame the bad guys but to accent the good ones. Kudos. Also, the behavior of some of those guys is absolutely shocking, I'm sorry to say I never suspected it to be this bad at that level. Call me naive.

arrrg 12y ago
Would you have a problem with someone naming those responsible? It is obviously wrong to demand of victims to take specific actions (or not). Telling a victim (especially one you do not know personally) what to do is definitely never ok. At most you might recommend a certain action, but depending on how that is framed such a recommendation might already be problematic. That said, I’m not sure I see the problem with naming those who are responsible. Had she done that I really don’t see what would be wrong about that.
- Mz 12y ago
  That said, I’m not sure I see the problem with naming those who are responsible. One of the problems with naming names is that there are two sides to every story, so it tends to lead to "he said, she said" and tends to get very ugly -- the man has reason to defend himself and often feels he didn't do anything wrong and may not have been intentionally bad. Another is that the woman who does so harms her own reputation. Who the hell will want to work with her if they know that should they crack an off color joke or make some other faux pas, she will go all SJW on them and seek to publicly hang them high? Women are never going to get anywhere if they continue to jump on their high horse every time they have a run in with some guy. It is the men who have power. We (women -- as I am one) have to find a way to work with them if we want to get anywhere. And learning to sidestep trouble and frame things as innocently as they are reasonably able to be framed is a path forward. Jumping to ugly conclusions and starting a shitshow every time something happens is not. The author was a CEO who apparently did multi-million dollar deals. I suspect she knows whereof she speaks. The shitshows we have seen posted to HN mostly seem to be women who are less successful than that. I say this as someone who was molested and raped as a kid, who talks openly about that fact and what it did to me yet I have protected the identities of the perpetrators, for quite a lot of reasons. So this is something I have firsthand experience with. The other problem is that naming names tends to not let it be a growth experience for men who screwed up because they just did not know any better. We all inherit an awful lot of shit culturally (I grew up in the deep south -- here is me talking about stupid racist assumptions I did not know I had and how I became aware of them: http://ask.metafilter.com/261222/How-can-I-practice-gratitude-while-recognizing-and-fighting-injustice#3794660 http://ask.metafilter.com/261222/How-can-I-practice-gratitud...) You have to start with the assumption that men are just as much a victim of circumstance as women if we are ever going to find a path forward. Once you out a man, he is publicly branded. Once that is done, he is much more likely to feel compelled to justify his actions to himself. That means he is likely to keep being an asshole and not become more sensitive to the issue. That does not let us, as a culture, move forward. Nailing men to the cross for relatively harmless assholery keeps all of us, as a group, pinned in place. I would like to move forward. The status quo sucks. I do not wish to do anything which prevents progress. I am not saying that names should never be named. But the kinds of things described in the article, while definitely deal-breakers socially and in terms of business, are relatively harmless. She is not talking about being beaten and raped. She is not talking about the sort of thing that would justify calling the police and having him charged, criminally.

needacig 12y ago

There is a related HN post a few pages away for the curious: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7686491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7686491

protomyth 12y ago

"Again, not criminal behavior. I suffered a few unwelcome gropes at late-night Comdex parties and the like, but never felt like I was in danger and I was always able to walk away unharmed." An unwelcome grope is criminal behavior.

TodPunk 12y ago

I like this article specifically because it is the only APPROPRIATE level of "women have it different" I've ever seen (I don't read a lot on the topic, to be fair). It doesn't detract from men (or even compare to them), it doesn't say how it must be if you are a woman, it's just saying "there's things here, they happen, it should be something we're aware of and probably keep in mind." That level headed attitude is the right thing to engender and bring to the discussion.

bobbles 12y ago

Jesus, the profile pic she is using here is 2000x3008 and just rendered as a 1-inch wide circle.

mr_schnippel 12y ago
cut her some slack, she's just a woman :D

enraged_camel 12y ago

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that the vast majority of guys I talk to about this topic are simply not aware that women, especially attractive women, go through stuff like this all the time. So when they hear women complaining about discrimination, harassment, glass ceilings, and so on, they think those women are simply "being bitchy." Which simply perpetuates and intensifies the status quo.

ars 12y ago
Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. I'm really curious about the numbers here - what percent of women have ever agreed to such offers for the purpose of getting ahead (at any point in their lifetime). I'm hoping the number is in the single digits, because if it's higher this type of harassment will never stop.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>Makes you wonder about how many women do accept such offers and get ahead that way. Which is "unfair" in a way to the men who don't have such an option. Oh yeah, that's another thing that happens: when a good-looking woman is successful, others (men and not-so-good-looking women) will assume she must have done sexual favors for someone in power - as opposed to because she's smart and capable. (You may have asked the question innocently, but... there be dragons.)
  - oh_sigh 12y ago
    You can't argue that men generally aren't aware that a lot of sexual harassment takes place against women or attractive women, and also that they would assume that when they do come into power that they got ahead by accepting sexual harassment.

mhewett 12y ago

This is not intended to diminish the perfectly valid stories in her blog, but about 30 years ago I went to a Silicon Valley talk where Heidi Roizen was the featured speaker. Minutes before the talk started she swept into the room surrounded by a half-dozen very handsome young guys in designer suits, all smiling beautifully. It was exactly the same as if some older guy had showed up surrounded by models in Versace dresses. I thought it was very inappropriate and lost some respect for her. Of course, I may have interpreted it incorrectly...perhaps there is another explanation for the entourage of young men accompanying her.

ars 12y ago

Was the question about the baby really so bad? It seemed to me like the person asking about it tried as hard as he could to ask it in a positive way (i.e. not accusatory, but offering opportunity to explain).

rando289 12y ago
The bit about her losing interest was clearly without tact. Like asking "are you going to love your baby more than your company?" However, I think tactfully having and voicing concern of how the pregnancy would affect her job performance in a ceo to investor meeting was valid. I wasn't sure myself, so I did a few google searches and which came up with headlines like "Why 43% of Women With Children Leave Their Jobs, and How to Get Them Back", and the legal right for 3 months of maternity leave in the US. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder what kind of preparation the company has to handle these issues.
tptacek 12y ago
Yes. In an employment setting, it's an unlawful question. The reason it's unlawful to ask a job candidate the question is the same reason that it's unethical to ask a prospective investment target: the premise of the question is bogus, and rebutting it requires the candidate to explain and defend private child care and home life arrangements. Offering a candidate an "opportunity to explain" a question that shouldn't have been asked in the first place isn't a positive thing.
- ShardPhoenix 12y ago
  It's obviously a reasonable question and the fact that it's illegal to ask is outrageous.
  - kaitai 12y ago
    There was a bunch of discussion of good intentions above. You're one of those people who may or may not have good intentions, but as a woman who might someday have a kid, you make me angry. People like you make me REALLY angry. It's reasonable to doubt my interest in my own f(&ing company, it's reasonable to think I'll suddenly get stupid for hormonal reasons and won't be able to deal with business, it's reasonable... what? Do you not think I'm an intelligent being who has thought about the ramifications of having a kid and running a business? Do you think that it's just some sort of thing that I don't even notice until pop I have a squalling child and then I'm all like wow my brain has turned into maternal mush and I never even expected that! Unlike men who just do stupid business s#(& for rational reasons, like wanting to buy a yacht or upgrade the girlfriend or plain old greed. You don't even give men the credit of asking them if they might pay enough attention to their own kids to lose a moment's focus when one is born. People like you see stupidity, lack of focus, and incompetence in men as simply individual traits. At the same time you treat women as some sort of broad idiot class, implying that women need to justify to you that popping out a kid won't jeopardize the business. You're the reason one of my friends in grad school wouldn't tell anyone she was pregnant for months and months and months, so that no one would deny her a research or teaching assignment or put her on some involuntary leave. edited for asterisks. And one last comment: if you think the woman you are doing business with is not good at business, stop doing business with her. If you think she is, give her enough respect to figure she'll deal with children appropriately, and don't ask stupid questions about whether she'll lose interest in her own company. If you want to ask who will handle x business aspect if she takes leave, that's fine, as it is not a stupid question.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

reshambabble 12y ago

I am so glad articles like these are coming out. It's brave to reveal these intimate and embarrassing situations. I wonder how things would have gone if she or another man in the room had reacted. I think there is a need for women (and men!!) to stand up for women rather than just "walk away." Could you just imagine what that meeting would have been like if a male employee just said, "seriously?" and walked away instead of Heidi walking away?

transfire 12y ago

Attractive woman are going to have such problems as a matter of course. Men are attracted to woman primarily based on their looks and confident men are going to act on their desires. If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to make yourself look unattractive. You can't have it both ways. You can't lure a client with your looks and then always expect totally platonic behavior from them. And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. Mother Nature quite clearly has other designs.

fmdud 12y ago
Sorry, this is a pretty fucking horrible comment. >You can't lure a client with your looks >And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. It's perfectly reasonable to expect men to not commit sexual assault in the workplace. What world are you living in where anything like this is remotely acceptable?
- pekk 12y ago
  You are right that it's a completely horrible comment. But even so, where did he say that we should expect men to "commit sexual assault" in the workplace? Flirting with someone or asking them to coffee is not sexual assault, though it is inappropriate for the workplace.
  - fmdud 12y ago
    I've seen this argument so many times at this point they blur into one. It's a watered down version of "She was asking for it" when talking about about a rape case. The way someone looks or the clothes they have on doesn't give you carte blanche to harass/assault them. I'll show you what I mean: >If you are an attractive woman and want to do business under such potential circumstance, then your best bet is to try to make yourself look unattractive. This is the exact same kind of victim blaming as in "She was asking for it". He's telling women to make themselves look unattractive, implying that they are partially to blame for their own harassment because of what they were wearing, or how they looked. Saying "well, it's bound to happen" isn't good enough. >You can't have it both ways. >And if instead, you just want to pin all the blame on men for being pigs and expect them to change, well good luck with that. These two quotes both show that he really is talking about harassment and assault. The OP article wasn't talking about relatively harmless (if inappropriate) workplace flirting; some couples meet at work. That happens. The difference is that those kind of things generally begin with very subtle signals over an extended period of time. The context of this article, this thread, and implicitly this comment (by explicitly agreeing that women are asking for this harassment to stop) is one of harassment and assault. >You can't lure a client with your looks and then always expect totally platonic behavior from them. >Mother Nature quite clearly has other designs. I don't need to break this down. It's so shitty.

cube_yellow 12y ago

This is a women in her 50s trying to make herself feel like she's still attractive to men, and almost everyone in the plea is borderline autistic. That's fine though, because every women without an attractive husband eventually does that, and tech attracts people with low social skills. Considering recent trends, this is a perfectly appropriate article for HN.

ElComradio 12y ago

I won't accept "it's harder for women in business" because it is impossible to actually demonstrate and it devolves into a pissing contest about who has a greater frequency of unpleasant experiences with coworkers, partners and clients. It is also impossible to balance that against reasons it is easier for the genders. How often did Heidi have an easier time being trusted or otherwise "invited in" because of being an attractive woman? No one can really claim to know who has it easier at the end of the day. What is true is that it is different.

jonathankoren 12y ago

I really wish she would name names. This sort of conduct shouldn't be tolerated.

Aloisius 12y ago
Agreed. Frankly, the hands on the crotch moved well past shouldn't-be-tolerated and to should-have-been-prosecuted. I know it is a hassle dealing with the police and the legal system, but good god until a few of these assholes get publicly shamed and thrown in jail for a while, I'm not sure we're ever going to be rid of them.

mkempe 12y ago

Walking away silently is not the appropriate response. Tolerating a colleague's obscene language isn't either. In both cases, the outcome is that the perpetrator is going to repeat the same offensive behaviour. People who are offensive should be shunned and told why they are shunned. If they are borderline criminal, others should be told about them. If they are criminal, government should be involved. Being afraid of what others will think, or of them potentially closing their doors (why?), is a sanction of evil and encourages further victimization.

mkempe 12y ago
To those who downvoted my comment without argument: what I said is outrageous? unacceptable? men who physically assault women or treat them as purely sexual objects should be tolerated? am I missing something?
- wpietri 12y ago
  It's certainly not very thoughtful or empathetic. It's easy for you to say what other people should do. But if somebody has been harassed or sexually assaulted, reporting it or suing has to be up to them. There are enormous personal consequences to doing so. Blaming people who decide not to do that is putting an additional unfair burden on somebody who has already been victimized.
  - mkempe 12y ago
    You assume and assert so wrongly that I have not put much thought in what I said, and that I don't have empathy for the victims. I've witnessed and been subjected to harassment. These stories, and now your comment, make me viscerally sick.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      In which case, you'll need to write your point better. People can't react to what's in your head, just what's on the page. What I said is a pretty common response to your point, and often comes from people who have been through the wringer: not just the initial harassment, but also the enormous difficulty of speaking up. Read more on the topic and you'll see what I mean.

orionblastar 12y ago

It is the same for men in some situations. When I worked my male bosses asked me to give them a blowjob in exchange for a promotion or drop my pants and be sodomized instead. I refused and was never promoted. They told me they did this with everyone. I complained to HR, but they refused to do anything about it. I don't really consider myself an attractive man, I think they were doing it to be mean and have some dirt on me. In order to be promoted they need dirt on you to keep you in their control. It is more of a bully and domination thing. Manager of HR, said she would fix it if I slept with her, by the way. You will find that a lot in big businesses, smaller businesses not so much. Which is why I try to startup my own small business and never do those things and go by ability to do the job, experience, talent, and skills as well for promoting people.

kansface 12y ago
Why didn't you go the police instead of HR?

_tlf7 12y ago

I was so happy this was published. As a female founder, the grossest things happen. It sucks, there are some VC firms where I no longer feel safe attending their events. I don't get why men I ask for business help to this day still feel comfortable asking me out knowing that a) I'm a very vocal feminist and b) I state very clearly that I need business assistance.

frozenport 12y ago

>>My partners are concerned that when you have this baby you are going to lose interest in the company and not be a good CEO As a practical matter this is a legitimate question. For example, "why are you taking this job when you plan to be busy for the next 6 months?" (or even longer).

tptacek 12y ago
No, it isn't a legitimate question. In fact, in an employment setting, it's an unlawful question. It presumes that the interviewer can extrapolate from the probably irrelevant detail of someone's pregnancy status to their ability to perform after the birth; refuting that bogus extrapolation requires the candidate to explain and defend their child care arrangements and home life. As a practical matter, if someone in my company asked a candidate a question like that, premised on the candidate's ability to perform a job based on pregnancy status, I would fire the interviewer --- both because they were playing games with the most important function of the firm, and because they'd have exposed us to legal risk.
- danielweber 12y ago
  I once thought that everyone knew not to ask things like this, but people don't. Story: at a friend's place of employment, they were having an interview for a secretary, as the previous two secretaries had both left after their maternity leaves. During a group interview, one guy asks a candidate "hey, you're not planning on getting pregnant, are you?" Did I mention this was at a law firm, and that the guy asking this was a lawyer? Yeah. The poo instantly hit the fan from about a billion different directions. Everyone in the room, not just the guy who asked the question, got a very very long talk with HR. It entered company lore as "really stupid and expensive mistake this one guy did." Whenever I'm on the questioning side, I always go over this with my coworkers.
- dingaling 12y ago
  As a man I have been asked whether my performance at work has been affected by raising children. When I made a mistake I was asked 'Are your children affecting your sleep? Perhaps you should take some time off as you seem to be losing focus.' Other feedback that came in was 'He seems disinterested in the tasks assigned' with the implication that my children were more interesting than my work ( which of course they are ). Would you also fire anyone who asked those questions of a man?

_tlf7 12y ago

I'm a woman who is new to hacker news. I've been told I have to be on this thing if I ever want to apply for YC. I don't know if I'll ever do that but I don't want to ruin that opportunity. I've been reading through all these comments and a lot of them make me sick to my stomach. Articles that surround women in the work force interest me because my startup is in this space, but at what cost of my sanity do I have to put up with all these sexist comments to have value to this community?

dang 12y ago
I'm very sorry. Many of these comments have made me sick to my stomach, too. And also ashamed. (I'm one of the moderators of HN.) You don't have to be active on HN to apply for YC. There's a technical requirement to have an account, just because YC's software systems were built that way, but there's definitely no requirement beyond that. I hope you'll participate, but if this has been your introduction to the "community" I can understand why you might not want to.
- abracar 12y ago
  Thanks for saying that. Still, it may not be how applicants see it. For instance my take from PG's "How to apply" (http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html) was that posting here could definitely be a plus — and that's one of the reasons why your role is so important. I know sama mentioned improving the quality of HN comments as part of the roadmap for YC to get to fund more women and I couldn't agree more.
- _tlf7 12y ago
  thanks for this info. Still new to this site and I'd like to be more active in the community but it's good to know it's not a strict requirement.
Mz 12y ago
I just tweeted you with a link to my blog because it was the only contact info in your profile. HN used to be a lot rougher. I probably have the second highest karma of any openly female member. I used to get badly raked over the coals. I think a) yeah, there is room for improvement on HN b) I have been in even worse sexist business/professional situations, so it took me a while to connect the dots and realize it was a sexism thing. So I think you probably do need a thick skin and more savvy about how to deal with such things if you are going to make it in business. This is really not that horrible, in the grand scheme of things. Sorry you are having some trouble with it. (I would have emailed you these remarks, but, again, no ready means to do so.)

rando289 12y ago

I like the article, but I must point out this one thing I don't want it to perpetuate. “Every time I see the word ‘Girl’ used in scenarios that are supposed to empower women, it really grates on me,” http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-ladies-folks-heres-a-visual-guide-to-what-you-should-call-that-group-of-individuals/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-lad... It bothers me too. "A girl is any female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl

orky56 12y ago

We are in the 21st century, everyone knows right from wrong, and we're still in this situation of sex & sexism in the workplace? Despite the rise of anonymous, democratic, and free voice, whistleblowers still have more to worry about than ever. Majority of rape incidents go unreported, sexual harassment to males is increasing, and we are creating tools to draw people together. If the culture is to change, common decency, morals, and ethics need to be emphasized consistently throughout age, career, and power progression. As we saw with Dropbox and Mozilla, public outrage has an effect and upper management has to address these concerns. Founders need to create the culture of transparency over even matters like this. People need to call each other out when words come out like "Which girl in the office would you like to...?" At the end of the day, you have to choose whether your opposite sex coworkers are your family or friends.

JDDunn9 12y ago

Perhaps if we legalized prostitution it would decrease incidents like this. We know that as pornography consumption increases, violent sex crimes decrease. It's plausible that giving people a legal outlet would make them less likely to sexually harass others. Then it shifts the costs to the men rather than on the women of society.

vii 12y ago

Articles like this just reinforce stereotypes (women as victims) without recognising the reality that men can also be victims (of male or female abusers). This makes it even harder for men who are victimized to come forward. There are plenty of studies which show that men are very unlikely to report sexual assault -- for example, recently http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_... Sexual harassment is an important issue; but it affects both genders. Starting out with examples of unwelcome sexual touching in the workplace and saying "it's different for girls" drags the debate back twenty years. I'm a man and I've faced unwelcome touching in the workplace and I'm sure I'm not exceptional.

wpietri 12y ago
"What about the men!" is a deeply disappointing response here. Yes, men can also be victims. And it's also important to fix that. But you can make that point without instantly demanding equal air time or suggesting that a woman telling stories about her life is placing an enormous burden on you.

elchief 12y ago

I'm old now, but when I was a younger man, I was something to look at. I got sexual come-ons and innuendos by female and gay male coworkers all the time. It's not a "girl thing", it's an "I'm attractive thing". It goes away. Guys also like to make dick jokes. Because dick jokes are funny. See Louis CK net worth. And guys build rapport by being funny. I showed a guy at work my Chromecast. "It's smaller than I thought". "That's what she said", I replied. Laughs by all genders. Accept dick jokes. Punish actual harrassment. Don't think it only happens to women.

robobro 12y ago

How exactly is this "news"? What does it have to do with "hacking"?

abracar 12y ago
from HN's FAQ: "On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
wpietri 12y ago
Yes, there's no possible way a VC talking about making deals and raising investment could possibly be related to a site about startups. /me rolls his eyes.

javert 12y ago

If you compare an "ideal" man with an "ideal" woman, being a woman is, arguably, a disadvantage. But the vast majority of real men and women are not "ideal." For instance, what if you are a black man? What if you are short? What if you don't have the right "swagger"? What if you visit the VC when he happens to be having a bad day? What if you have a different accent? This is why feminism is ridiculously unfair to all men except the "ideal" men, and also not applicable to the vast majority of women, who are not "ideal" women.

wpietri 12y ago
I have heard a lot of ridiculous arguments about feminism, but this one at least has the virtue of being novel. It's still not very interesting, though. If you were to read as much as a book on feminism, you'd know that there are reasonable answers to these questions.
- javert 12y ago
  Can you give me an example of a reasonable answer to this? And if my argument is novel, I'm not sure how a book on feminism could have already answered it.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    Sorry, the last line was the novel part. The "what about people of differing levels of privilege" bit is standard and well answered. No advantage is absolute, and all generalizations describe tendencies. That there is also white privilege or tall privilege doesn't negate that their is male privilege, or prevent people from thinking about it. So as a white guy, there are many circumstances where I get boosts from one, the other, or both that non-white, non-guy people may not get. There are some circumstances where being a fat person costs me, but that doesn't erase the advantages from being male. Some sorts of feminism focus purely on the male-female issues. That's often fine; the problems, evidence, and solutions are often specific, and there's plenty to deal with. Others view various sorts of prejudice as part of a connected system. You can read about intersectional feminism for more: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Intersectionality http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Intersectionality

Ransom_ 12y ago

When thinking about my female friends, it is hard to believe that this is the type of crap that they will most likely, scratch that, will experience. I can keep my actions in check, call people out on theirs, but it just doesn't seem like it's enough.

facepalm 12y ago

It sounds as if it sucks to be attractive. I am not convinced that it doesn't still suck more to be unattractive (as in male). There are no interesting stories to be told. You don't rant about the awful party - you weren't invited to the party to begin with. Those experiences she describes sure sound awful, but they are the extreme end. In between there are probably lots of encounters that she get because non-creepy people were attracted to her. Maybe people even rationalize they like her startups because they like her. Men also get rejected from VC companies all the time. Also if I would witness men doing awful stuff to women, I wouldn't want to work with them either.

RDeckard 12y ago

Strong white-knighting in this commentary.

jdhzzz 12y ago

I find the phrase "Tits up" simultaneously offensive and hilarious. Thinking of saying it in front of my mother tilts me more towards offensive, but I still smile...

Holbein 12y ago

"Men categorize women in one of four ways: Mothers. Virgins. Sluts. and Bitches. Of course none of the above is suitable for the modern business woman. But, you can create your own image by selecting pieces of each archetype suitable for you. For example, the sexual attractiveness of the slut. The wisdom of the mother. The integrity of the virgin. The independence of the bitch. This leaves men confused and unable to pigeonhole you. They are forced instead, to take you seriously." From "Syrup" (2013), Amber Heard, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO8jBcL0oAQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO8jBcL0oAQ Not saying this is the solution. You should get respected no matter what. But... if everybody you meet is a shallow asshole, why not start manipulating them?

yaelwrites 12y ago

I just have to say how nice it is to read a discussion about this topic that's productive and supportive. I guess the new H/N algorithm that I whined about is actually working. :)