28 ms·

OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

825 points by openbsddesktop 13y ago

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html and http://openbsd.org/want.html

mrbill 13y ago
I can see their point about "We need to keep this VAX around because building on actual hardware is different from building on emulation", however I'm sure there's bits of infrastructure, CRTs hooked to KVMs, etc, that could be replaced with newer and more efficient gear that can help with the power bill. You don't have to run the ENTIRE place on cast-off donations and stuff out of a dumpster.
hardline 13y ago
Do somethng completely apeshit and charge people money. Hint hint?
D9u 13y ago
I suggest funding a solar power system, especially since the newer panels are even more efficient for a lower net cost-per-watt/kWH ratio. Even on cloudy days the new panels will produce energy. The panels are usually warranted to produce at least a certain (80% on mine) percentage for a set period of time. (25 years on my 5 + year old PV arrays) so the other considerations would be a charge controller/charger, a voltage inverter (from DC to AC) cabling and batteries for storage. Of all the items, the batteries will be the main recurring expense as they generally don't last as long as the PV panels. Depending on type of battery, and how heavily cycled they are, batteries can last for 10 years, with proper care and use. A system which maintains a constantly higher amperage will last longer than a system that has been allowed to be exceedingly discharged. (no less than 80% of capacity) In my area electricity sells for $0.49USD per KWH ergo solar is the logical solution. The end result is a self reliant system, independent of the issues associated with distributed power sources, while increasing responsibility for the consumer. I find the cost/benefit ratio to be in favor of under-funded consumers, especially in the long term.
jason_slack 13y ago
I used to use OpenBSD on my daily laptop about 8 years ago. Loved it. Worked for a University and we had a few OpenBSD Servers in my department for web serving, email, etc. No other departments did. Why did I stop? Theo was such an ass about questions on "his" mailing lists that, well, there were friendlier communities out there. OpenSSH, however, I use a lot so I could donate a few bucks for that.
openbsddesktop 13y ago
http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html and http://openbsd.org/want.html http://openbsd.org/want.html
4ad 13y ago
Useful (non-slashdot) links: Initial ask for help: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2 How much it costs: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2 Why old hardware platforms matter: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973312304511&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973312304511&w=2 Why not kickstarter: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973837906139&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973837906139&w=2 And most importantly, the donation link: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
- Spooky23 13y ago
  I wish they had done an appeal before the end of 2013. I usually do my donations then, when I "close the books" for the year.
  - rrjamie 13y ago
    From their donation page, donations are not tax-deductible (for individuals at least; businesses may be able to expense them). Nevertheless, I donated $50 just for the excellent work they do on OpenSSH.
    - transitionality 13y ago
      A very rational decision. Nobody else will sell you a comparable product for that price. Is there even a comparable product?
  - 4ad 13y ago
    They did: > Date: 2013-12-17 18:20:48 It just took a month to have this thread on HN (there were others).
    - dalke 13y ago
      Like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6924644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6924644 from 2013-12-18.
jms703 13y ago
What will happen to OpenSSH if OpenBSD can't keep the lights on?
- wmf 13y ago
  It will find a new home that's not dying.
  - openbsddesktop 13y ago
    Are you perfectly sure that it will represent the same quality then?
    - wmf 13y ago
      If I had a choice between, say, donating $10 to OpenBSD of which only $2 goes towards OpenSSH development and letting Google take over OpenSSH, I'd take my chances with the latter. I don't see why Linux or OS X users should subsidize OpenBSD.
      - yosm 13y ago
        Well, Mac OS X's firewall is based on pf - OpenBSD's packet filter. So OSX users turn on firewall _are_ using OpenBSD's work. http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-2422.1.72/bsd/net/pf.c http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-2422.1.72/bsd...
      - markmark 13y ago
        Yeah, there's plenty of people here saying "hey, you use OpenSSH on x86, you should donate". But the the reason they need the donations is to pay the power bills for running things like Vax servers for OpenBSD development on ancient platforms? Not the most convincing argument.
        _cipher_ 13y ago
        And if you and many more were interested in 'why' there are some strange ports, you'd get your answer. Search and you might be surprised. It's easy to just say "hur, they be stupid to port on vax/macppc/sparc/whatever". Do your homework.
pyvpx 13y ago
all I want to say on this (to me, tiresome) topic is: if you or your company (especially if that is one and the same!!!!1) have ever used OpenSSH you should at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM buy a damn CD. you really ought to donate a solid hundred in your local currency but if you can't, skip a couple pints this month and buy a CD. if you use CARP or OpenBGPd and have never bought a CD, you need to buy two ;p
fidotron 13y ago
As I commented when this appeared here the other day as: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7059581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7059581 The fact this was submitted here and disappeared is kind of indicative of their problems.
- canistr 13y ago
  Fascinating given the attention that FreeBSD was given (and was able to raise) when posted on HN about their own funding problems.
  - jeremymcanally 13y ago
    Many people find Theo de Raadt intolerable, which unfortunately may be affecting some of their Friendly Network Effect™ and, by extension, their fundraising ability (pure speculation, of course). Supporting them is important given their work on other projects, but it seems like outright dismissing alternatives to someone cutting them a check (e.g., moving the servers, etc.) is also probably limiting the help they're going to receive.
jxf 13y ago
Just to make the call to action a little more direct, the donation link is here: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
- mukundmr 13y ago
  Thanks. Made a donation.
- annasaru 13y ago
  Done. Reading this is sad.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- gommm 13y ago
  Thanks, just donated, I use openssh every day so it just makes sense.
  - romland 13y ago
    Wow. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I had no idea OpenSSH fell under the OpenBSD umbrella! It certainly makes very good sense for me to donate now!
    - nzp 13y ago
      Most FOSS projects with the name pattern OpenXYZ fall under the OpenBSD umbrella in one way or the other.
      - fulafel 13y ago
        Doubtful, it's a really common pattern (opencv, opencollada,OpenOffice, opensolaris etc etc)
        nzp 13y ago
T3RMINATED 13y ago
RIP OpenBSD
simias 13y ago
As a long time FreeBSD user I wish the BSDs would find a way to "unite" in a way, try to put redundant infrastructures in common. Right now I feel like linux is slowly eating all the market share, if it continues that way the BSDs will regress back to the lines of Hurd and Plan9. Competition is always a good thing, even in the OSS world.
- npsimons 13y ago
  As a Linux user who hasn't dabbled in the BSDs for a long time, I can't but agree about having them around. My first reaction to this headline was to find a donate link, and I don't even have anything running OpenBSD, here or at work. I'm not sure uniting would be a good idea, however; having separate projects focused on separate needs seems to be a good thing to me.
- danieldk 13y ago
  Competition is always a good thing, even in the OSS world. Linux is just a kernel. The problem is that outside the kernel there is perhaps already too much competition. E.g. there is glibc, eglibc, bionic, dietlibc, etc. There is SysV init, systemd, Upstart, OpenRC, etc. Then we have GNOME, KDE, Unity, Xfce, Cinnamon, and MATE. For practically any component in a Linux system, except the kernel itself, there is already a lot of competition. The BSDs add four more, albeit incompatible (with Linux and each other), user lands. I think the FLOSS world would profit from less fragmentation and more focus on making the good projects better. Of course, polishing existing work is not as much fun as writing your own ;).
- asdasf 13y ago
  >Competition is a good thing, so we should consolidate and have less competition That makes very little sense.
  - simias 13y ago
    Then re-read my comment within the context of this discussion, which is OpenBSD being on the verge of bankruptcy. If I believed all the BSD forks had a chance to live long and prosper on their own I wouldn't be saying that, but right now it seems to me that none of them have any real long time chance to remain generic OS on par with Linux (except possibly FreeBSD but it's not even certain anymore). Linux just moves too fast these days.
cpprototypes 13y ago
A little bit off topic, but this reminds me again of how much the web needs an easy payment system (as easy as in-app purchases in mobile). EFF, wikipedia, I often see notices or news of things they're doing and think to myself that I should donate. But I'm usually in the middle of something and stopping everything to take out my wallet, get the CC, fill out a form, etc. is just too disruptive. So I try to remind myself to do it later, but then forget.
- Xdes 13y ago
  As Bitcoin expands its adoption this will become less of an issue.
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    Maybe. Doing anything with bitcoin today is a giant pain in the ass. Which is easier? a) Typing in a credit card number + billing address. b) - Signing up for an account at a Bitcoin exchange. - Transferring money to them (by doing a?) - Waiting for them to exchange it. - Transferring it to the recipients' wallet (this one step is kinda-easy, I'll grant) - Hoping the price of bitcoin holds stable-ish so that my bitcoins are still worth something when the recipient converts them back.
    - wyager 13y ago
      Way to make an unfair comparison. Replace a) with - Fulfill an arbitrary number of legal requirements - Sign up for an account at a bank - Transfer money to the bank (by doing a?) - Wait for the check/deposit to go through (hopefully neither you nor the bank fucked something up) - Put it in your debit/credit account (this one step is kinda-easy, I'll grant) The last thing about "Hoping the price holds stable" is irrelevant. The recipient can convert them immediately. A fair comparison is the act of paying with your (funded) credit card versus paying with your (funded) Bitcoin wallet. I can say from experience that the Bitcoin wallet is significantly easier in a lot of cases (and also carries less of a risk of getting skimmed or having a payment database hacked or something).
    - 13y ago
orbitur 13y ago
I feel like it's useful to point that OpenBSD won't say exactly why the bill is so high, and apparently they don't have open accounting. That bothers me a bit. Link to relevant reddit comment thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1vakm9/openbsd_developers_of_openssh_opensmtpd_pf_we/ceqoqse http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1vakm9/openbsd_develo...
- brohee 13y ago
  What kind of "why" do you expect? There is a pretty large collection of computers, network equipment, UPS and HVAC stuff. You want a machine per machine watt usage? 8 year old image of one of the racks, is only grew since... http://www.openbsd.org/images/newrack.jpg http://www.openbsd.org/images/newrack.jpg
  - aiiane 13y ago
    It's a due diligence kind of thing. If you're asking people to make significant monetary contributions, it makes sense to provide a clear picture of what you're using that money on.
    - mathattack 13y ago
      Exactly. Donors of non-profits like to see where the money is going. If you're doing an arms length transaction, then it's ok to say "No need to look behind the curtain, and feel free to buy from someone else."
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    They could at least say, We use X watts to power Y machines If they don't know at least numbers like that, there are some bigger issues.
- olouv 13y ago
  That bothers me too, what if they are mining bitcoins with the energy/funds? That wouldn't seem too far-fetched for unaudited tech-savy people.
jdludlow 13y ago
> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the > development and build machines. A number of logistical reasons > prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might > offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go > that way. I don't understand this comment. If the choice came down to moving versus shutting down entirely, why is moving an unacceptable answer?
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
  Seriously? What's not to understand? He said they had reasons that prevent them from moving and didn't want to discuss it further. Why push it? Isn't he in a better position to decide what's unacceptable than you are?
  - simias 13y ago
    Probably, but then again if he wants my money he better explain why he needs it and how he's going to spend it, doesn't he? That being said since OpenBSD is all about security maybe that's the reason they don't want to move the servers to some place where they won't be able to monitor physical access to the machines. That's pure speculation though.
  - gtaylor 13y ago
    If he's asking for money from me, I would like to know why it's not an option. The root of the issue being raised is power/space, so I'd definitely want to know why I'm forking up for something the project could potentially get for free. It's not a big deal, and I don't expect him to go into detail. He just won't get a cent from me without elaborating, and that's OK. I'm not mad, and I understand he has mis-givings. I just don't think that answer is acceptable enough for me to donate, but that's my subjective opinion (and not everyone else's).
    - astrodust 13y ago
      If you're asking for help and you have constraints, you better qualify those constraints in a way that builds confidence. The more transparency you have in your discussion, the more supportive people will be.
brasetvik 13y ago
You may not be using OpenBSD, but the same organization is behind OpenSSH. Imagine being without ssh, then go donate. :)
- drdaeman 13y ago
  Correction: OpenSSH, not SSH at all.
  - mhurron 13y ago
    Name another free ssh implementation. On every* UNIX and UNIX-like OS ssh is OpenSSH. OpenSSH is why we don't telnet everywhere anymore. *- Honestly, I don't know of anything that ships with something that is not OpenSSH.
    - brohee 13y ago
      Dropbear, seen for example in OpenWRT. Not that it's nearly as feature full as OpenSSH, nor as architected around security (process separation and all). But it's nice when you need a small sshd.
      - yarou 13y ago
        Yup, Dropbear is great for use on embedded devices. I only heard about Dropbear because once upon a time I needed an SSHd for an old Unix (believe it was Tru64). Unfortunately, no PRNG shipped by default, so I ended up symlinking /dev/zero to /dev/random. Thankfully this was not a production server, but an internal one laying around my house.
    - drdaeman 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_servers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_servers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_clients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_clients Personally, I've mostly used OpenSSH on desktop and servers and Dropbear on embedded/low-memory devices. I've also installed lsh-server out of curiosity once, but that was just to take a look, not for production use. However, I believe, security- and featurewise, OpenSSH is probably a best option (unless device's really low on resources).
xradionut 13y ago
They could probably kill support and power for some of the "dead silicon" platforms they support. If the CPU hasn't been manufactured in the last decade or two, why support it?
- protomyth 13y ago
  Because people still use it and it helps the project find errors in modern architectures.
- rsync 13y ago
  I am happy to see continued support for "dead silicon" as it provides a (possibly) non-compromised platform. It's also nice to have obscure attack surface available if one required it. Did you see any leaked powerpoint slides discussing MIPS r12k vulns, created in conjunction with SGI ? I didn't ...
- orbitur 13y ago
  They should probably try to define some sort of support schedule. The current setup of "let's support everything under the sun from the last 10 years" is unsustainable, but they seem to want to continue with that.
- hhw 13y ago
  From Theo's comments on the mailing list: "On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the platforms we run, following that they are fixed. It is a harsh reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved. " "Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems. Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures. We'd slowly lose the developers who like to work on those areas. They also work in other areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them."
  - xradionut 13y ago
    Who still uses an 88K machine? I have the CPU board from a DG/UX machine, but the latest chips are from 93/94.
plainOldText 13y ago
I'm not an OpenBSD user, but I like their focus on security. And this could be a positive influence on other platforms. Donated.
PaulRobinson 13y ago
So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks. Not just Theo, but he has set the bar quite low when it comes to friendliness and tolerance of questions from younger/less experienced contributors. Linus' rants on the Linux kernel lists are almost cookie cutter copies of Theo's. There is "opinionated software" and then there is Theo being an intolerable, obnoxious, ego-maniac. As such many people are going to see this and laugh and think "good riddance", and will be happy to see OpenBSD disappear. That will only be enhanced by the fact the books are closed, the shortfall on the electric bill is inexplicably $20k, and nobody is prepared to explain the detail. In essence rudeness + shady accounting practice != open source community that should feel a sense of entitlement from non-core users It's a shame because the code (especially the crypto code) is really good. Seriously, go read it: I used to love reading the OpenBSD source, but I never contributed anything because Theo was such an absolute jerk. I hope the guys who work on the crypto stuff at least either keep doing so elsewhere (Free- or Net-), or a new project without the need for $20k in electricity bills spins up to keep going.
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  You're entitled to your view and I won't disagree with some of it ... but shady accounting practices? What are you alleging exactly?
- rubiquity 13y ago
  We're in a post-NSA revelations world and you're happy to see a project like OpenBSD disappear just because the people behind it aren't nice?
  - PaulRobinson 13y ago
    Yes, because other projects will rise in its place run by people with better social skills, and they are more likely to build tools of use to a wider audience, and we'll see wider acceptance of crypto. I genuinely believe my non-tech friends and family have such a poor approach to security, because the people who have a good approach to developing security tools have such a poor approach towards my non-tech friends and family.
blhack 13y ago
They accept bitcoins, here is their donation page, and they're the people that maintain openSSH, the software that I'd bet ALL of us use every day: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  Thanks for link, donated some.
kscottz 13y ago
I would love to see more FOSS projects on GitTip (https://www.gittip.com/ https://www.gittip.com/). It would seem to me that regular small donations that can be budgeted would be more helpful than just scratching where and when it itches. Giving $1 a week versus $50 at once is so much more convenient. We as the FOSS community need to own up that writing and hosting software isn't free, and most of us as highly paid engineers are in a position to be charitable and help out. My resolution for this year is to give away 1% of my income to the FOSS community and related charities (EFF, Wikipedia, Ada Initiative, PSF, etc). I challenge everyone on HackerNews to do the same. Stop bitching and put your money where your mouth and let's go help make a better world.
- auvi 13y ago
  Kudos to you!
jpessa 13y ago
what i find interesting (read: suspicious) is how they have seemingly prioritized and budgeted other things ahead of paying for electricity. when i make budgeting decisions (whether personal or in business), i start with the needs before going to the "nice to haves". for openbsd, i can't help but assume powering their various servers/systems is kiiind of a priority... so what i want to know is: - the over all budget $ amount for 2014 - what was the cost of power in 2013 * how did you get to $20k for 2014? - which priorities are worth funding over power my suspicion is that there's plenty of room for give and take here.
jijji 13y ago
The bigger question is who pays $2000/month for electricity for a server?
- schwap 13y ago
  1666.67/month for electricity powering 2 racks of servers + HVAC.
  - hhw 13y ago
    That's actually a good deal; it's closer to the cost of what just 1 rack usually goes for in a proper data centre.
- jms703 13y ago
  Can we get them some solar panels?
  - jethro_tell 13y ago
    Yeah suggested on the list. Dismissed as not helpful
  - maerF0x0 13y ago
    You'd need something like a 10KW system? 2396 hrs sunshine in calgary. They use something like 24MWhrs .. is my maths working? Plus a massive battery system to get through the night, ... plus account for shorter sunlight in the winter.. Yup, not helpful :P
bhaile 13y ago
Thanks for linking it here and would be better if it was linked to an article providing additional details other than electricity costs. Other users have posted the relevant links. On another note, the readability of the font was a turn off for me. Fortunately, there is an option to view it in plain text. adding &q=raw at the end of the URL. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2&q=raw http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2&q=raw
jlgaddis 13y ago
I read through some of this thread last night and was about to throw them a few bucks. I don't really consider myself an OpenBSD user although I do have a router here that runs it for pf. Other than that, I haven't touched it in probably a decade. I'm glad I read through the whole thread because by the time I got to the end of it I had changed my mind. In one e-mail to the list, Theo basically said (in effect) that a donation of $20 wasn't even worth it. (Granted, $20 isn't much in the grand scheme of things but I feel that it reasonable covers my use of OpenBSD.) There are many people who think that Theo is the worst thing for the Project (because he's such an asshole). OTOH, however, there are many who think that the Project wouldn't exist if it weren't for Theo.
- wila 13y ago
  His $20 reply is an answer to the "why don't you sell more merchandise" question. Where he tries to explain that the merchandise model has a lot of hidden costs. As you read the whole thread, I suppose you've also seen this quote? Nicolai, and others, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all of those stepping up to the call for contributions. Every little bit helps. See: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138974990608900&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138974990608900&w=2 Anyways, talk is cheap. Donate helps which as a lot of others here I just did. Thanks Theo!
jlgaddis 13y ago
I'm excited about buying a cupcake from one of the OpenBSD developers at the bake sale.
- 72deluxe 13y ago
  Haha brightened up my morning, thanks! Very amusing haha
jlgaddis 13y ago
Although the priority at this point is certainly paying the electric bill, you might also consider taking a look at the "Hardware Wanted" page [0] and seeing if you have anything laying around that one of the developers can use. It's typically not brand new top-of-the-line gear they're looking for so you might be surprised. [0]: http://openbsd.org/want.html http://openbsd.org/want.html
- xradionut 13y ago
  I've scrapped most of these systems years ago. Still have a aviion dual cpu board somewhere in the shed, probably doesn't work.
openbsddesktop 13y ago
VIDEOS Exploit Mitigation Techniques: an Update After 10 Years (by Theo) http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ An OpenBSD talk by Michael Lucas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Oh look, it's the talk where Theo blatantly and shamelessly pretends he invented all of the mitigations that Spender and Pax Team had many years before anyone at OpenBSD even mentioned it. They pioneered stack randomization and ASLR? Are you serious? Aside from OpenSSH, OpenBSD is not security relevant, and hasn't been for about a decade. So when they don't get the 20k, nothing of value is lost.
  - justin66 13y ago
    I just started watching these. About six minutes into the fifty minute talk Theo says "this wasn't our idea." If he's trying to convince people he invented that idea he's going about it in a subtle, reverse-psychology way. (he's not)
akulbe 13y ago
If you use OpenSSH... you benefit from OpenBSD's work, even if you're not an OpenBSD user. SSH alone, and all the utilities that use it... have made my work/life SOOOOOO much easier. That may sound silly, but when you don't have to search for some 3rd-party utility because what you need is built-in... it makes life easier. I'm donating.
diestl 13y ago
I wonder if this is a case of OS Darwinism. The fact that it seems to be hanging on by a thread shows most companies are using and contributing to Linux. I have never used OpenBSD so not sure what it overs over Linux as a Unix implementation?
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  I think you are very misinformed here. There are many commercial *BSD users that do not give back. There is one famous one that think building campuses that looks like a UFO is pretty important.
- spinchange 13y ago
  I am also new to OpenBSD but had intended build a server with it per the advice in the top comment on this HN post from Zed Shaw https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7036661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7036661 My understanding is it has a reputation for being very secure, having thoroughly audited source code, and runs on lots of old and legacy hardware. It's also renown for having super thorough documentation. (see Zed's comment) Judging by comments on this post, I think it is more a case of the maintainers and/or the foundation's management instead of loyalty or adoption of the OS. I believe HN also runs on OpenBSD too, if I'm not mistaken.
  - nzp 13y ago
    > I believe HN also runs on OpenBSD too, if I'm not mistaken. On FreeBSD.
- dspillett 13y ago
  You might not use OpenBSD as a whole but if you use Linux, especially in a server environment, you almost certainly rely on OpenSSH in some way, shape, or form, and that is part of the same project.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  The OS itself has never seen mainstream adoption, but it is renowned for being very well designed, as well as pioneering several OS security features like W^X, strlcat, strlcpy and countless other tweaks. That and the foundation's most important projects are probably OpenSSH (absolutely essential, main focus here) and OpenNTPD, rather than the OS itself.
justin66 13y ago
I get that a lot of people don't care. I even get that some people have an unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for, an expectation that must either not extend to their other charitable donations or serve as an indicator that they don't give a lot of money to charities at all. What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in information technology - conclude that $20k/year is a lot of money to spend on electricity. What utopia of free electricity for all are these people living in? Can I host a few servers there?
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations. In fact, it's done routinely by individuals like myself. > What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in information technology - conclude that $20k/year is a lot of money to spend on electricity. Where I live, that would pay for the equivalent of 10-11 120-volt 20-amp circuits running at 80% capacity (per electrical code) 24/7. Some googling suggests Calgary rates are similar, which isn't surprising. We both get most of our power from hydro.
  - justin66 13y ago
    > This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations. I wonder if any nonprofit, ever, has given a by-the-watt power accounting of the sort some of the people here are advocating > Where I live, that would pay for the equivalent of 10-11 120-volt 20-amp circuits running at 80% capacity (per electrical code) 24/7. aka several racks of equipment. My God, the audacity of OpenBSD developers, to ask for help powering this stuff!
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      > some of the people here Name them, link to the comments, and explain exactly what you mean by "by-the-watt power accounting", or you're just inventing strawmen. > several racks of equipment The extent of the evidence we have is that there are two racks: http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg There are significant gaps in the racks, and ~16U are occupied by UPSs. The rest is a mix of fairly modern and legacy gear with a few external HDDs and a few 1U pieces of network gear. In a real datacenter, it would occupy perhaps 1.5 racks. My arguments are backed by publicly-available evidence. Yours are backed by vague assertions by people who assuredly do not need you defending them. If they wish to convince anyone, they can release further evidence. > My God, the audacity of OpenBSD developers, to ask for help powering this stuff! Oh look, another strawman. Nobody believes requesting aid with an electric bill is unreasonable. It is the amount being requested that is shocking, and the extreme secrecy breeds suspicion.
siculars 13y ago
just donated 0.10 btc. really easy with bitpay integration. would rather not give paypal or my cc the fees.
soapdog 13y ago
Just sent 50 USD their way. Its not much but it is as far as I can spend. I recommend everyone helping. OpenBSD is one of those projects that benefit everyone not only those using it.
mariuolo 13y ago
What about emulators?
kriro 13y ago
Seems insane that they can't get enough funding given the current security climate. Think of some of the eccentrics whatever you want but they have always been fighting the good fight as far as I'm concerned. No BLOB is a very sane idea for example. I think we'd be further along if that was enforced stricter by other projects.
bolle 13y ago
22 seems an appropiate amount. Or whatever your portnumber is for your SSH-server.
- aaronem 13y ago
  I'm sympathetic, but not enough so to donate $22,000.
SwellJoe 13y ago
If the price of OpenSSH is keeping all of OpenBSD running, I'll send OpenBSD some money. I've never used OpenBSD except to tinker with it, and likely never will. But, I use OpenSSH hundreds of times a day (both in automated jobs and in the terminal). It is utterly necessary to me; likely necessary for all of us, really. So, while a company would have shed the extra weight and focused on its core product that users love years ago, OpenBSD keeps OpenSSH as a side effect. I guess I'm OK with that. Maybe it's even necessary for OpenSSH developers to understand systems level programming at a level only OS developers can grasp, and maybe OpenSSH wouldn't be the absolute beast it is today without that kind of influence and widespread knowledge found in the OpenBSD team. I dunno. Whatever it is, I support the people and the things they do for me in OpenSSH even if I don't care much about OpenBSD.
- eruditely 13y ago
  Value of openssh cannot be understated. it is one of the most important pieces of software ever. Even if Theo's attitudes are distasteful.
ffrryuu 13y ago
The one with the gold makes all the rules.
elwesties 13y ago
This may be a silly question but could they virtualise the process on EC2?
- voltagex_ 13y ago
  They're running on so many esoteric architectures it's not really viable.
- garg 13y ago
  Since low level systems programming in involved, they wouldn't be able to test it in a VM.
Senkwich 13y ago
Donated. Hope it helps.
jnazario 13y ago
i used to have commit but was kicked out (along with a bunch of other people over the years). i even wrote a book on openbsd. what i see from afar is that obsd alienated a lot of people with theo's behavior, theo's gone and surrounded himself with sycophants, and the rest of the world caught up to them (largely) in features. as a result the userbase has shrunk - why put up with tirades if you have a secure platform elsewhere - and the features have remained stale. theo was a visionary, and together with some other really brilliant folks (not counting myself as one of them) accomplished what people said no one could. since then he's been fine tuning that vision but has more or less kept it at around 2003. the world has changed, theo - and as a result the project - hasn't. so, the world caught up and users moved on.
ajkjk 13y ago
Can someone explain why I would want to support OpenBSD? I get, from the comments, that: openSSH is great (sure, I can believe it) and Theo is an asshole but you should compromise and give them money anyway. I don't get why a parallel operating system ought to continue existing, especially one that comes from the same legacy codebase as several others. I also don't get why, if openSSH is so good, the goal isn't to write a new SSH or fund openSSH separately and drop the rest that can't be supported. Why does the world needs OpenBSD instead of having the talent focused on making a smaller number (..Linux) better. Certainly the answer might be 'because that's what the talent wants to work on' but that's not a good reason to fund it. I have also gotten the impression, from limited observation, that there are real problems in the open source community with too many people doing the same thing and not working together, and with people being jerks (or just generally anti-social or at least not-highly-personable) and making it hard to get involved or care about otherwise important projects. I don't think supporting Theo, from what I've read here, helps that trend. I know very little. Can someone fill me in?
- toyg 13y ago
  OpenSSH is one of many offshoots of the OpenBSD project. OpenBSD being a full OS means that they need tools for everything. Occasionally, one of those tools will be superior to mainstream alternatives, thanks to the very strict practices of the project (which really sets the bar for any other project in the security field) -- OpenSSH being the most famous example. Even if their tools don't get adopted, a lot of their code and ideas do, benefitting the whole ecosystem. Their practices also mean that a lot of the standard GNU userland is regularly audited with a degree of precision not found in more mainstream projects. The bugs they find will be fixed by everyone else, again benefitting everyone in the FLOSS world.
midas007 13y ago
OpenBSD overall is interesting. The installer alone signals how simple and elegant is the rest of the OS (take a look at the source [0]). A dozen basic questions give or take, and one can have a fully-functional box. Revenue-wise, the best move would be for a shop like iXsystems, Pair or ByteMark to step up to cover costs. And, any shop that uses OpenSSH on a large scale should be able to pony up some cash to keep Open{SSH,BSD,CVS,{NTP,BGP,OSPF,SMTP,IKE}D} alive. For example, it would be nice to see OpenBSD on Amazon, and AWS might even be willing to fund kernel changes and more to accomplish that. Finally: check out this handy script which makes it OpenBSD a whole lot easier to get started and complete common tasks. [1] References: [0] http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/ http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/ [1] https://gist.github.com/steakknife/6120072/raw/shave https://gist.github.com/steakknife/6120072/raw/shave
ryen 13y ago
I think OpenBSD should reach out directly to manufacturers of the many hardware platforms they support (HP, SPARC (now Oracle), etc) and ask for donations. Of course, only the companies that are still in business.
SilverSurfer972 13y ago
I would love to donate some Litecoin
annnnd 13y ago
I don't see the point - they should ask for subscriptions, not for donations. What will they do next month / year, ask again? And again?
- dan1234 13y ago
  They do offer Paypal subscriptions[0] You can donate 10-500 per month, in USD/CAD/EUR. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html
blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago
I donated 50 bucks. These guys have been awesome for a long time. Sorry it took me this long to donate. EDIT: Here's the thing. I don't directly use OpenBSD, but they have influenced more than just UNIX for a long time.
Aqueous 13y ago
Perhaps it would be best to move all non-specialized builds into Amazon or Rackspace or some automated CI service, and to move the specialized builds to a differnet, less expensive place, or keep them where they are. At the very least your electricity costs will go down.
ThinkBeat 13y ago
A lot of the discussion so far revolves around whether or not Theo can be abrasive. Who cares? I would rather have a non compromising, highly secure operating system available, with all the source code available for me to see (none of that binary blob business) than a mediocre operating system that was somewhat secure from a guy who was really chill. Funding the OpenBSD project is not a decision about the personality of Theo, its a decision on the usefulness and and the quality of work that the OpenBSD community creates. When I am setting up and configuring and relying on a server with OpenBSD, I could care less if Theo is eccentric or not. I am in awe of the technical brilliance of OpenBSD. And yes I have donated and do donate to the project, and I encourage clients I have that are running on OpenBSD to do the same.
ThinkBeat 13y ago
A lot of the discussion so far revolves around whether or not Theo can be abrasive. Who cares? I would rather have a non compromising, highly secure operating system available, with all the source code available for me to see (none of that binary blob business) than a mediocre operating system that was somewhat secure from a guy who was really chill. Funding the OpenBSD project is not a decision about the personality of Theo, its a decision on the usefulness and and the quality of work that the OpenBSD community creates. When I am setting up and configuring and relying on a server with OpenBSD, I could care less if Theo is eccentric or not. I am in awe of the technical brilliance of OpenBSD. And yes I have donated and do donate to the project, and I encourage clients I have that are running on OpenBSD to do the same.

825 points by openbsddesktop 13y ago

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html and http://openbsd.org/want.html

I can see their point about "We need to keep this VAX around because building on actual hardware is different from building on emulation", however I'm sure there's bits of infrastructure, CRTs hooked to KVMs, etc, that could be replaced with newer and more efficient gear that can help with the power bill. You don't have to run the ENTIRE place on cast-off donations and stuff out of a dumpster.

hardline 13y ago

Do somethng completely apeshit and charge people money. Hint hint?

D9u 13y ago

I suggest funding a solar power system, especially since the newer panels are even more efficient for a lower net cost-per-watt/kWH ratio. Even on cloudy days the new panels will produce energy. The panels are usually warranted to produce at least a certain (80% on mine) percentage for a set period of time. (25 years on my 5 + year old PV arrays) so the other considerations would be a charge controller/charger, a voltage inverter (from DC to AC) cabling and batteries for storage. Of all the items, the batteries will be the main recurring expense as they generally don't last as long as the PV panels. Depending on type of battery, and how heavily cycled they are, batteries can last for 10 years, with proper care and use. A system which maintains a constantly higher amperage will last longer than a system that has been allowed to be exceedingly discharged. (no less than 80% of capacity) In my area electricity sells for $0.49USD per KWH ergo solar is the logical solution. The end result is a self reliant system, independent of the issues associated with distributed power sources, while increasing responsibility for the consumer. I find the cost/benefit ratio to be in favor of under-funded consumers, especially in the long term.

jason_slack 13y ago

I used to use OpenBSD on my daily laptop about 8 years ago. Loved it. Worked for a University and we had a few OpenBSD Servers in my department for web serving, email, etc. No other departments did. Why did I stop? Theo was such an ass about questions on "his" mailing lists that, well, there were friendlier communities out there. OpenSSH, however, I use a lot so I could donate a few bucks for that.

openbsddesktop 13y ago

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html and http://openbsd.org/want.html http://openbsd.org/want.html

4ad 13y ago

Useful (non-slashdot) links: Initial ask for help: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2 How much it costs: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2 Why old hardware platforms matter: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973312304511&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973312304511&w=2 Why not kickstarter: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973837906139&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=138973837906139&w=2 And most importantly, the donation link: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

Spooky23 13y ago
I wish they had done an appeal before the end of 2013. I usually do my donations then, when I "close the books" for the year.
- rrjamie 13y ago
  From their donation page, donations are not tax-deductible (for individuals at least; businesses may be able to expense them). Nevertheless, I donated $50 just for the excellent work they do on OpenSSH.
  - transitionality 13y ago
    A very rational decision. Nobody else will sell you a comparable product for that price. Is there even a comparable product?
- 4ad 13y ago
  They did: > Date: 2013-12-17 18:20:48 It just took a month to have this thread on HN (there were others).
  - dalke 13y ago
    Like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6924644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6924644 from 2013-12-18.

jms703 13y ago

What will happen to OpenSSH if OpenBSD can't keep the lights on?

wmf 13y ago
It will find a new home that's not dying.
- openbsddesktop 13y ago
  Are you perfectly sure that it will represent the same quality then?
  - wmf 13y ago
    If I had a choice between, say, donating $10 to OpenBSD of which only $2 goes towards OpenSSH development and letting Google take over OpenSSH, I'd take my chances with the latter. I don't see why Linux or OS X users should subsidize OpenBSD.
    - yosm 13y ago
      Well, Mac OS X's firewall is based on pf - OpenBSD's packet filter. So OSX users turn on firewall _are_ using OpenBSD's work. http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-2422.1.72/bsd/net/pf.c http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-2422.1.72/bsd...
    - markmark 13y ago
      Yeah, there's plenty of people here saying "hey, you use OpenSSH on x86, you should donate". But the the reason they need the donations is to pay the power bills for running things like Vax servers for OpenBSD development on ancient platforms? Not the most convincing argument.
      - _cipher_ 13y ago
        And if you and many more were interested in 'why' there are some strange ports, you'd get your answer. Search and you might be surprised. It's easy to just say "hur, they be stupid to port on vax/macppc/sparc/whatever". Do your homework.

pyvpx 13y ago

all I want to say on this (to me, tiresome) topic is: if you or your company (especially if that is one and the same!!!!1) have ever used OpenSSH you should at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM buy a damn CD. you really ought to donate a solid hundred in your local currency but if you can't, skip a couple pints this month and buy a CD. if you use CARP or OpenBGPd and have never bought a CD, you need to buy two ;p

fidotron 13y ago

As I commented when this appeared here the other day as: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7059581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7059581 The fact this was submitted here and disappeared is kind of indicative of their problems.

canistr 13y ago
Fascinating given the attention that FreeBSD was given (and was able to raise) when posted on HN about their own funding problems.
- jeremymcanally 13y ago
  Many people find Theo de Raadt intolerable, which unfortunately may be affecting some of their Friendly Network Effect™ and, by extension, their fundraising ability (pure speculation, of course). Supporting them is important given their work on other projects, but it seems like outright dismissing alternatives to someone cutting them a check (e.g., moving the servers, etc.) is also probably limiting the help they're going to receive.

jxf 13y ago

Just to make the call to action a little more direct, the donation link is here: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

mukundmr 13y ago
Thanks. Made a donation.
annasaru 13y ago
Done. Reading this is sad.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
gommm 13y ago
Thanks, just donated, I use openssh every day so it just makes sense.
- romland 13y ago
  Wow. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I had no idea OpenSSH fell under the OpenBSD umbrella! It certainly makes very good sense for me to donate now!
  - nzp 13y ago
    Most FOSS projects with the name pattern OpenXYZ fall under the OpenBSD umbrella in one way or the other.
    - fulafel 13y ago
      Doubtful, it's a really common pattern (opencv, opencollada,OpenOffice, opensolaris etc etc)
      - nzp 13y ago

T3RMINATED 13y ago

RIP OpenBSD

simias 13y ago

As a long time FreeBSD user I wish the BSDs would find a way to "unite" in a way, try to put redundant infrastructures in common. Right now I feel like linux is slowly eating all the market share, if it continues that way the BSDs will regress back to the lines of Hurd and Plan9. Competition is always a good thing, even in the OSS world.

npsimons 13y ago
As a Linux user who hasn't dabbled in the BSDs for a long time, I can't but agree about having them around. My first reaction to this headline was to find a donate link, and I don't even have anything running OpenBSD, here or at work. I'm not sure uniting would be a good idea, however; having separate projects focused on separate needs seems to be a good thing to me.
danieldk 13y ago
Competition is always a good thing, even in the OSS world. Linux is just a kernel. The problem is that outside the kernel there is perhaps already too much competition. E.g. there is glibc, eglibc, bionic, dietlibc, etc. There is SysV init, systemd, Upstart, OpenRC, etc. Then we have GNOME, KDE, Unity, Xfce, Cinnamon, and MATE. For practically any component in a Linux system, except the kernel itself, there is already a lot of competition. The BSDs add four more, albeit incompatible (with Linux and each other), user lands. I think the FLOSS world would profit from less fragmentation and more focus on making the good projects better. Of course, polishing existing work is not as much fun as writing your own ;).
asdasf 13y ago
>Competition is a good thing, so we should consolidate and have less competition That makes very little sense.
- simias 13y ago
  Then re-read my comment within the context of this discussion, which is OpenBSD being on the verge of bankruptcy. If I believed all the BSD forks had a chance to live long and prosper on their own I wouldn't be saying that, but right now it seems to me that none of them have any real long time chance to remain generic OS on par with Linux (except possibly FreeBSD but it's not even certain anymore). Linux just moves too fast these days.

cpprototypes 13y ago

A little bit off topic, but this reminds me again of how much the web needs an easy payment system (as easy as in-app purchases in mobile). EFF, wikipedia, I often see notices or news of things they're doing and think to myself that I should donate. But I'm usually in the middle of something and stopping everything to take out my wallet, get the CC, fill out a form, etc. is just too disruptive. So I try to remind myself to do it later, but then forget.

Xdes 13y ago
As Bitcoin expands its adoption this will become less of an issue.
- ForHackernews 13y ago
  Maybe. Doing anything with bitcoin today is a giant pain in the ass. Which is easier? a) Typing in a credit card number + billing address. b) - Signing up for an account at a Bitcoin exchange. - Transferring money to them (by doing a?) - Waiting for them to exchange it. - Transferring it to the recipients' wallet (this one step is kinda-easy, I'll grant) - Hoping the price of bitcoin holds stable-ish so that my bitcoins are still worth something when the recipient converts them back.
  - wyager 13y ago
    Way to make an unfair comparison. Replace a) with - Fulfill an arbitrary number of legal requirements - Sign up for an account at a bank - Transfer money to the bank (by doing a?) - Wait for the check/deposit to go through (hopefully neither you nor the bank fucked something up) - Put it in your debit/credit account (this one step is kinda-easy, I'll grant) The last thing about "Hoping the price holds stable" is irrelevant. The recipient can convert them immediately. A fair comparison is the act of paying with your (funded) credit card versus paying with your (funded) Bitcoin wallet. I can say from experience that the Bitcoin wallet is significantly easier in a lot of cases (and also carries less of a risk of getting skimmed or having a payment database hacked or something).
  - 13y ago

orbitur 13y ago

I feel like it's useful to point that OpenBSD won't say exactly why the bill is so high, and apparently they don't have open accounting. That bothers me a bit. Link to relevant reddit comment thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1vakm9/openbsd_developers_of_openssh_opensmtpd_pf_we/ceqoqse http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1vakm9/openbsd_develo...

brohee 13y ago
What kind of "why" do you expect? There is a pretty large collection of computers, network equipment, UPS and HVAC stuff. You want a machine per machine watt usage? 8 year old image of one of the racks, is only grew since... http://www.openbsd.org/images/newrack.jpg http://www.openbsd.org/images/newrack.jpg
- aiiane 13y ago
  It's a due diligence kind of thing. If you're asking people to make significant monetary contributions, it makes sense to provide a clear picture of what you're using that money on.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Exactly. Donors of non-profits like to see where the money is going. If you're doing an arms length transaction, then it's ok to say "No need to look behind the curtain, and feel free to buy from someone else."
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  They could at least say, We use X watts to power Y machines If they don't know at least numbers like that, there are some bigger issues.
olouv 13y ago
That bothers me too, what if they are mining bitcoins with the energy/funds? That wouldn't seem too far-fetched for unaudited tech-savy people.

jdludlow 13y ago

> The OpenBSD project uses a lot of electricity for running the > development and build machines. A number of logistical reasons > prevents us from moving the machines to another location which might > offer space/power for free, so let's not allow the conversation to go > that way. I don't understand this comment. If the choice came down to moving versus shutting down entirely, why is moving an unacceptable answer?

HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
Seriously? What's not to understand? He said they had reasons that prevent them from moving and didn't want to discuss it further. Why push it? Isn't he in a better position to decide what's unacceptable than you are?
- simias 13y ago
  Probably, but then again if he wants my money he better explain why he needs it and how he's going to spend it, doesn't he? That being said since OpenBSD is all about security maybe that's the reason they don't want to move the servers to some place where they won't be able to monitor physical access to the machines. That's pure speculation though.
- gtaylor 13y ago
  If he's asking for money from me, I would like to know why it's not an option. The root of the issue being raised is power/space, so I'd definitely want to know why I'm forking up for something the project could potentially get for free. It's not a big deal, and I don't expect him to go into detail. He just won't get a cent from me without elaborating, and that's OK. I'm not mad, and I understand he has mis-givings. I just don't think that answer is acceptable enough for me to donate, but that's my subjective opinion (and not everyone else's).
  - astrodust 13y ago
    If you're asking for help and you have constraints, you better qualify those constraints in a way that builds confidence. The more transparency you have in your discussion, the more supportive people will be.

brasetvik 13y ago

You may not be using OpenBSD, but the same organization is behind OpenSSH. Imagine being without ssh, then go donate. :)

drdaeman 13y ago
Correction: OpenSSH, not SSH at all.
- mhurron 13y ago
  Name another free ssh implementation. On every* UNIX and UNIX-like OS ssh is OpenSSH. OpenSSH is why we don't telnet everywhere anymore. *- Honestly, I don't know of anything that ships with something that is not OpenSSH.
  - brohee 13y ago
    Dropbear, seen for example in OpenWRT. Not that it's nearly as feature full as OpenSSH, nor as architected around security (process separation and all). But it's nice when you need a small sshd.
    - yarou 13y ago
      Yup, Dropbear is great for use on embedded devices. I only heard about Dropbear because once upon a time I needed an SSHd for an old Unix (believe it was Tru64). Unfortunately, no PRNG shipped by default, so I ended up symlinking /dev/zero to /dev/random. Thankfully this was not a production server, but an internal one laying around my house.
  - drdaeman 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_servers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_servers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_clients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_clients Personally, I've mostly used OpenSSH on desktop and servers and Dropbear on embedded/low-memory devices. I've also installed lsh-server out of curiosity once, but that was just to take a look, not for production use. However, I believe, security- and featurewise, OpenSSH is probably a best option (unless device's really low on resources).

xradionut 13y ago

They could probably kill support and power for some of the "dead silicon" platforms they support. If the CPU hasn't been manufactured in the last decade or two, why support it?

protomyth 13y ago
Because people still use it and it helps the project find errors in modern architectures.
rsync 13y ago
I am happy to see continued support for "dead silicon" as it provides a (possibly) non-compromised platform. It's also nice to have obscure attack surface available if one required it. Did you see any leaked powerpoint slides discussing MIPS r12k vulns, created in conjunction with SGI ? I didn't ...
orbitur 13y ago
They should probably try to define some sort of support schedule. The current setup of "let's support everything under the sun from the last 10 years" is unsustainable, but they seem to want to continue with that.
hhw 13y ago
From Theo's comments on the mailing list: "On a regular basis, we find real and serious bugs which affect all platforms, but they are incidentally made visible on one of the platforms we run, following that they are fixed. It is a harsh reality which static and dynamic analysis tools have not yet resolved. " "Regarding shutting them down, there other social problems. Yes, we remove about 10 of the architectures. We'd slowly lose the developers who like to work on those areas. They also work in other areas, but ... I suspect they would another BSD that supports them."
- xradionut 13y ago
  Who still uses an 88K machine? I have the CPU board from a DG/UX machine, but the latest chips are from 93/94.

plainOldText 13y ago

I'm not an OpenBSD user, but I like their focus on security. And this could be a positive influence on other platforms. Donated.

PaulRobinson 13y ago

So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks. Not just Theo, but he has set the bar quite low when it comes to friendliness and tolerance of questions from younger/less experienced contributors. Linus' rants on the Linux kernel lists are almost cookie cutter copies of Theo's. There is "opinionated software" and then there is Theo being an intolerable, obnoxious, ego-maniac. As such many people are going to see this and laugh and think "good riddance", and will be happy to see OpenBSD disappear. That will only be enhanced by the fact the books are closed, the shortfall on the electric bill is inexplicably $20k, and nobody is prepared to explain the detail. In essence rudeness + shady accounting practice != open source community that should feel a sense of entitlement from non-core users It's a shame because the code (especially the crypto code) is really good. Seriously, go read it: I used to love reading the OpenBSD source, but I never contributed anything because Theo was such an absolute jerk. I hope the guys who work on the crypto stuff at least either keep doing so elsewhere (Free- or Net-), or a new project without the need for $20k in electricity bills spins up to keep going.

dinkumthinkum 13y ago
You're entitled to your view and I won't disagree with some of it ... but shady accounting practices? What are you alleging exactly?
rubiquity 13y ago
We're in a post-NSA revelations world and you're happy to see a project like OpenBSD disappear just because the people behind it aren't nice?
- PaulRobinson 13y ago
  Yes, because other projects will rise in its place run by people with better social skills, and they are more likely to build tools of use to a wider audience, and we'll see wider acceptance of crypto. I genuinely believe my non-tech friends and family have such a poor approach to security, because the people who have a good approach to developing security tools have such a poor approach towards my non-tech friends and family.

blhack 13y ago

They accept bitcoins, here is their donation page, and they're the people that maintain openSSH, the software that I'd bet ALL of us use every day: http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

cLeEOGPw 13y ago
Thanks for link, donated some.

kscottz 13y ago

I would love to see more FOSS projects on GitTip (https://www.gittip.com/ https://www.gittip.com/). It would seem to me that regular small donations that can be budgeted would be more helpful than just scratching where and when it itches. Giving $1 a week versus $50 at once is so much more convenient. We as the FOSS community need to own up that writing and hosting software isn't free, and most of us as highly paid engineers are in a position to be charitable and help out. My resolution for this year is to give away 1% of my income to the FOSS community and related charities (EFF, Wikipedia, Ada Initiative, PSF, etc). I challenge everyone on HackerNews to do the same. Stop bitching and put your money where your mouth and let's go help make a better world.

auvi 13y ago
Kudos to you!

jpessa 13y ago

what i find interesting (read: suspicious) is how they have seemingly prioritized and budgeted other things ahead of paying for electricity. when i make budgeting decisions (whether personal or in business), i start with the needs before going to the "nice to haves". for openbsd, i can't help but assume powering their various servers/systems is kiiind of a priority... so what i want to know is: - the over all budget $ amount for 2014 - what was the cost of power in 2013 * how did you get to $20k for 2014? - which priorities are worth funding over power my suspicion is that there's plenty of room for give and take here.

jijji 13y ago

The bigger question is who pays $2000/month for electricity for a server?

schwap 13y ago
1666.67/month for electricity powering 2 racks of servers + HVAC.
- hhw 13y ago
  That's actually a good deal; it's closer to the cost of what just 1 rack usually goes for in a proper data centre.
jms703 13y ago
Can we get them some solar panels?
- jethro_tell 13y ago
  Yeah suggested on the list. Dismissed as not helpful
- maerF0x0 13y ago
  You'd need something like a 10KW system? 2396 hrs sunshine in calgary. They use something like 24MWhrs .. is my maths working? Plus a massive battery system to get through the night, ... plus account for shorter sunlight in the winter.. Yup, not helpful :P

bhaile 13y ago

Thanks for linking it here and would be better if it was linked to an article providing additional details other than electricity costs. Other users have posted the relevant links. On another note, the readability of the font was a turn off for me. Fortunately, there is an option to view it in plain text. adding &q=raw at the end of the URL. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2&q=raw http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138972987203440&w=2&q=raw

jlgaddis 13y ago

I read through some of this thread last night and was about to throw them a few bucks. I don't really consider myself an OpenBSD user although I do have a router here that runs it for pf. Other than that, I haven't touched it in probably a decade. I'm glad I read through the whole thread because by the time I got to the end of it I had changed my mind. In one e-mail to the list, Theo basically said (in effect) that a donation of $20 wasn't even worth it. (Granted, $20 isn't much in the grand scheme of things but I feel that it reasonable covers my use of OpenBSD.) There are many people who think that Theo is the worst thing for the Project (because he's such an asshole). OTOH, however, there are many who think that the Project wouldn't exist if it weren't for Theo.

wila 13y ago
His $20 reply is an answer to the "why don't you sell more merchandise" question. Where he tries to explain that the merchandise model has a lot of hidden costs. As you read the whole thread, I suppose you've also seen this quote? Nicolai, and others, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all of those stepping up to the call for contributions. Every little bit helps. See: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138974990608900&w=2 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138974990608900&w=2 Anyways, talk is cheap. Donate helps which as a lot of others here I just did. Thanks Theo!

jlgaddis 13y ago

I'm excited about buying a cupcake from one of the OpenBSD developers at the bake sale.

72deluxe 13y ago
Haha brightened up my morning, thanks! Very amusing haha

jlgaddis 13y ago

Although the priority at this point is certainly paying the electric bill, you might also consider taking a look at the "Hardware Wanted" page [0] and seeing if you have anything laying around that one of the developers can use. It's typically not brand new top-of-the-line gear they're looking for so you might be surprised. [0]: http://openbsd.org/want.html http://openbsd.org/want.html

xradionut 13y ago
I've scrapped most of these systems years ago. Still have a aviion dual cpu board somewhere in the shed, probably doesn't work.

openbsddesktop 13y ago

VIDEOS Exploit Mitigation Techniques: an Update After 10 Years (by Theo) http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ An OpenBSD talk by Michael Lucas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k

lawnchair_larry 13y ago
Oh look, it's the talk where Theo blatantly and shamelessly pretends he invented all of the mitigations that Spender and Pax Team had many years before anyone at OpenBSD even mentioned it. They pioneered stack randomization and ASLR? Are you serious? Aside from OpenSSH, OpenBSD is not security relevant, and hasn't been for about a decade. So when they don't get the 20k, nothing of value is lost.
- justin66 13y ago
  I just started watching these. About six minutes into the fifty minute talk Theo says "this wasn't our idea." If he's trying to convince people he invented that idea he's going about it in a subtle, reverse-psychology way. (he's not)

akulbe 13y ago

If you use OpenSSH... you benefit from OpenBSD's work, even if you're not an OpenBSD user. SSH alone, and all the utilities that use it... have made my work/life SOOOOOO much easier. That may sound silly, but when you don't have to search for some 3rd-party utility because what you need is built-in... it makes life easier. I'm donating.

diestl 13y ago

I wonder if this is a case of OS Darwinism. The fact that it seems to be hanging on by a thread shows most companies are using and contributing to Linux. I have never used OpenBSD so not sure what it overs over Linux as a Unix implementation?

dinkumthinkum 13y ago
I think you are very misinformed here. There are many commercial *BSD users that do not give back. There is one famous one that think building campuses that looks like a UFO is pretty important.
spinchange 13y ago
I am also new to OpenBSD but had intended build a server with it per the advice in the top comment on this HN post from Zed Shaw https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7036661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7036661 My understanding is it has a reputation for being very secure, having thoroughly audited source code, and runs on lots of old and legacy hardware. It's also renown for having super thorough documentation. (see Zed's comment) Judging by comments on this post, I think it is more a case of the maintainers and/or the foundation's management instead of loyalty or adoption of the OS. I believe HN also runs on OpenBSD too, if I'm not mistaken.
- nzp 13y ago
  > I believe HN also runs on OpenBSD too, if I'm not mistaken. On FreeBSD.
dspillett 13y ago
You might not use OpenBSD as a whole but if you use Linux, especially in a server environment, you almost certainly rely on OpenSSH in some way, shape, or form, and that is part of the same project.
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
The OS itself has never seen mainstream adoption, but it is renowned for being very well designed, as well as pioneering several OS security features like W^X, strlcat, strlcpy and countless other tweaks. That and the foundation's most important projects are probably OpenSSH (absolutely essential, main focus here) and OpenNTPD, rather than the OS itself.

justin66 13y ago

I get that a lot of people don't care. I even get that some people have an unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for, an expectation that must either not extend to their other charitable donations or serve as an indicator that they don't give a lot of money to charities at all. What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in information technology - conclude that $20k/year is a lot of money to spend on electricity. What utopia of free electricity for all are these people living in? Can I host a few servers there?

nknighthb 13y ago
> unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations. In fact, it's done routinely by individuals like myself. > What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in information technology - conclude that $20k/year is a lot of money to spend on electricity. Where I live, that would pay for the equivalent of 10-11 120-volt 20-amp circuits running at 80% capacity (per electrical code) 24/7. Some googling suggests Calgary rates are similar, which isn't surprising. We both get most of our power from hydro.
- justin66 13y ago
  > This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations. I wonder if any nonprofit, ever, has given a by-the-watt power accounting of the sort some of the people here are advocating > Where I live, that would pay for the equivalent of 10-11 120-volt 20-amp circuits running at 80% capacity (per electrical code) 24/7. aka several racks of equipment. My God, the audacity of OpenBSD developers, to ask for help powering this stuff!
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    > some of the people here Name them, link to the comments, and explain exactly what you mean by "by-the-watt power accounting", or you're just inventing strawmen. > several racks of equipment The extent of the evidence we have is that there are two racks: http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg There are significant gaps in the racks, and ~16U are occupied by UPSs. The rest is a mix of fairly modern and legacy gear with a few external HDDs and a few 1U pieces of network gear. In a real datacenter, it would occupy perhaps 1.5 racks. My arguments are backed by publicly-available evidence. Yours are backed by vague assertions by people who assuredly do not need you defending them. If they wish to convince anyone, they can release further evidence. > My God, the audacity of OpenBSD developers, to ask for help powering this stuff! Oh look, another strawman. Nobody believes requesting aid with an electric bill is unreasonable. It is the amount being requested that is shocking, and the extreme secrecy breeds suspicion.

siculars 13y ago

just donated 0.10 btc. really easy with bitpay integration. would rather not give paypal or my cc the fees.

soapdog 13y ago

Just sent 50 USD their way. Its not much but it is as far as I can spend. I recommend everyone helping. OpenBSD is one of those projects that benefit everyone not only those using it.

mariuolo 13y ago

What about emulators?

kriro 13y ago

Seems insane that they can't get enough funding given the current security climate. Think of some of the eccentrics whatever you want but they have always been fighting the good fight as far as I'm concerned. No BLOB is a very sane idea for example. I think we'd be further along if that was enforced stricter by other projects.

bolle 13y ago

22 seems an appropiate amount. Or whatever your portnumber is for your SSH-server.

aaronem 13y ago
I'm sympathetic, but not enough so to donate $22,000.

SwellJoe 13y ago

If the price of OpenSSH is keeping all of OpenBSD running, I'll send OpenBSD some money. I've never used OpenBSD except to tinker with it, and likely never will. But, I use OpenSSH hundreds of times a day (both in automated jobs and in the terminal). It is utterly necessary to me; likely necessary for all of us, really. So, while a company would have shed the extra weight and focused on its core product that users love years ago, OpenBSD keeps OpenSSH as a side effect. I guess I'm OK with that. Maybe it's even necessary for OpenSSH developers to understand systems level programming at a level only OS developers can grasp, and maybe OpenSSH wouldn't be the absolute beast it is today without that kind of influence and widespread knowledge found in the OpenBSD team. I dunno. Whatever it is, I support the people and the things they do for me in OpenSSH even if I don't care much about OpenBSD.

eruditely 13y ago
Value of openssh cannot be understated. it is one of the most important pieces of software ever. Even if Theo's attitudes are distasteful.

ffrryuu 13y ago

The one with the gold makes all the rules.

elwesties 13y ago

This may be a silly question but could they virtualise the process on EC2?

voltagex_ 13y ago
They're running on so many esoteric architectures it's not really viable.
garg 13y ago
Since low level systems programming in involved, they wouldn't be able to test it in a VM.

Senkwich 13y ago

Donated. Hope it helps.

jnazario 13y ago

i used to have commit but was kicked out (along with a bunch of other people over the years). i even wrote a book on openbsd. what i see from afar is that obsd alienated a lot of people with theo's behavior, theo's gone and surrounded himself with sycophants, and the rest of the world caught up to them (largely) in features. as a result the userbase has shrunk - why put up with tirades if you have a secure platform elsewhere - and the features have remained stale. theo was a visionary, and together with some other really brilliant folks (not counting myself as one of them) accomplished what people said no one could. since then he's been fine tuning that vision but has more or less kept it at around 2003. the world has changed, theo - and as a result the project - hasn't. so, the world caught up and users moved on.

ajkjk 13y ago

Can someone explain why I would want to support OpenBSD? I get, from the comments, that: openSSH is great (sure, I can believe it) and Theo is an asshole but you should compromise and give them money anyway. I don't get why a parallel operating system ought to continue existing, especially one that comes from the same legacy codebase as several others. I also don't get why, if openSSH is so good, the goal isn't to write a new SSH or fund openSSH separately and drop the rest that can't be supported. Why does the world needs OpenBSD instead of having the talent focused on making a smaller number (..Linux) better. Certainly the answer might be 'because that's what the talent wants to work on' but that's not a good reason to fund it. I have also gotten the impression, from limited observation, that there are real problems in the open source community with too many people doing the same thing and not working together, and with people being jerks (or just generally anti-social or at least not-highly-personable) and making it hard to get involved or care about otherwise important projects. I don't think supporting Theo, from what I've read here, helps that trend. I know very little. Can someone fill me in?

toyg 13y ago
OpenSSH is one of many offshoots of the OpenBSD project. OpenBSD being a full OS means that they need tools for everything. Occasionally, one of those tools will be superior to mainstream alternatives, thanks to the very strict practices of the project (which really sets the bar for any other project in the security field) -- OpenSSH being the most famous example. Even if their tools don't get adopted, a lot of their code and ideas do, benefitting the whole ecosystem. Their practices also mean that a lot of the standard GNU userland is regularly audited with a degree of precision not found in more mainstream projects. The bugs they find will be fixed by everyone else, again benefitting everyone in the FLOSS world.

midas007 13y ago

OpenBSD overall is interesting. The installer alone signals how simple and elegant is the rest of the OS (take a look at the source [0]). A dozen basic questions give or take, and one can have a fully-functional box. Revenue-wise, the best move would be for a shop like iXsystems, Pair or ByteMark to step up to cover costs. And, any shop that uses OpenSSH on a large scale should be able to pony up some cash to keep Open{SSH,BSD,CVS,{NTP,BGP,OSPF,SMTP,IKE}D} alive. For example, it would be nice to see OpenBSD on Amazon, and AWS might even be willing to fund kernel changes and more to accomplish that. Finally: check out this handy script which makes it OpenBSD a whole lot easier to get started and complete common tasks. [1] References: [0] http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/ http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/ [1] https://gist.github.com/steakknife/6120072/raw/shave https://gist.github.com/steakknife/6120072/raw/shave

ryen 13y ago

I think OpenBSD should reach out directly to manufacturers of the many hardware platforms they support (HP, SPARC (now Oracle), etc) and ask for donations. Of course, only the companies that are still in business.

SilverSurfer972 13y ago

I would love to donate some Litecoin

annnnd 13y ago

I don't see the point - they should ask for subscriptions, not for donations. What will they do next month / year, ask again? And again?

dan1234 13y ago
They do offer Paypal subscriptions[0] You can donate 10-500 per month, in USD/CAD/EUR. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html

blahbl4hblahtoo 13y ago

I donated 50 bucks. These guys have been awesome for a long time. Sorry it took me this long to donate. EDIT: Here's the thing. I don't directly use OpenBSD, but they have influenced more than just UNIX for a long time.

Aqueous 13y ago

Perhaps it would be best to move all non-specialized builds into Amazon or Rackspace or some automated CI service, and to move the specialized builds to a differnet, less expensive place, or keep them where they are. At the very least your electricity costs will go down.

ThinkBeat 13y ago

A lot of the discussion so far revolves around whether or not Theo can be abrasive. Who cares? I would rather have a non compromising, highly secure operating system available, with all the source code available for me to see (none of that binary blob business) than a mediocre operating system that was somewhat secure from a guy who was really chill. Funding the OpenBSD project is not a decision about the personality of Theo, its a decision on the usefulness and and the quality of work that the OpenBSD community creates. When I am setting up and configuring and relying on a server with OpenBSD, I could care less if Theo is eccentric or not. I am in awe of the technical brilliance of OpenBSD. And yes I have donated and do donate to the project, and I encourage clients I have that are running on OpenBSD to do the same.

ThinkBeat 13y ago