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Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

• yashodhan 13y ago
  This is sad. Perhaps maybe fly in next time?
  • rheide 13y ago
    Maybe fix your country next time?
    • techsupporter 13y ago
      I honestly don't see what is broken here. No one has the unquestioned right to enter any country except one where they hold citizenship. This post documents one person who was turned away for what he felt was an unreasonable position but that's still up to the United States to decide. It may shock people on Hacker News to learn this, but many other countries turn people away for "frivolous" reasons or no reason at all. For instance, Canada: http://www.metalinsider.net/touring/warbeast-denied-entry-to-canada-but-dont-ask-why http://www.metalinsider.net/touring/warbeast-denied-entry-to... http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-06-21/article-3285421/Delegates-denied-entry-to-Canada-for-St.-Johns-conference/1 http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2013-06-21/article-328... http://news-briefs.ew.com/2013/11/16/russell-brand-south-africa/?hpt=hp_t5 http://news-briefs.ew.com/2013/11/16/russell-brand-south-afr... (well, almost) http://correresmidestino.com/almost-denied-entry-to-canada/ http://correresmidestino.com/almost-denied-entry-to-canada/
      • jzzskijj 13y ago
        No one has the unquestioned right to enter any country except one where they hold citizenship. This post documents one person who was turned away for what he felt was an unreasonable position but that's still up to the United States to decide. Yes it is. And it is up to the people to decide not wanting to go to US ever again, as stated in this post. Seems like you got offended by something the writer said. All he stated that he doesn't ever want to go there and I think he is allowed to state that without anyone getting upset about it.
        • techsupporter 13y ago
          I was responding to the assertion that this is "broken," not to the author of the original article. The author has every right to not visit countries which have wronged him and I see nothing wrong with that. What I do think is wrong is to immediately reply to someone else with a retort of "maybe fix your country."
          • jzzskijj 13y ago
            I see. I think I missed your target and point somewhere in "for what he felt was an unreasonable position" and "It may shock people on Hacker News to learn this". Sorry.
      • yukkurishite 13y ago
        How do other countries doing the same or something similar justify anything?
        • zorked 13y ago
          If everybody is doing it it's justifiable!
        • techsupporter 13y ago
          If you accept the assertion that countries are allowed to police their borders as they see fit, sans abuse and neglect, then it justifies it on the basis of "reasonable practice." This was a discretionary entry and discretion was withheld. Then again, as I pointed out elsewhere, my angst is not with the author of the article, just the comment to which I replied. (I happen to subscribe to the theory that, since the world is highly unlikely to do the reverse, borders should be relaxed to the point where people can move as freely as capital, but we're not anywhere close to that, either.)
      • Shivetya 13y ago
        Yes some do. If your a politically protected class you can come into the country at will and not generally have to worry about prosecution. If you follow the rules then there is a good chance they will close the door on you, let alone make sure you don't sneak in.
      • Mithaldu 13y ago
        Ever heard about the Schengen Area? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
        • deleted 13y ago
          [deleted]
        • vixen99 13y ago
          It's not really a counter example. The Eurocrats would love the peoples of Europe to be citizens of a united states of Europe (polls suggest people are not so inclined). The Schengen agreement is a logical step towards that goal and is undeniably helpful for travellers. Countries in the continent of America don't appear to have any such ambition.
          • raverbashing 13y ago
            Except the Schengen area includes countries not on the EU (and exclude countries part of the EU - for a reason)
          • slashdotaccount 13y ago
            That's wrong. The ambition clearly exists, steps for free movement are already taken and it's only going to be more unified with time advancing. http://enwp.org/UNASUR#Free_movement_of_peoples http://enwp.org/UNASUR#Free_movement_of_peoples
          • dalore 13y ago
            Wouldn't the "United" states be similar? Each "state" of the union was like it's own country until they formed their own group. People from the USA usually identify with their state first before the country.
      • dalore 13y ago
        But for a country that proclaims it's "freedoms" it feels like a bit of hypocrisy.
      • onetwofiveten 13y ago
        This is a pretty empty argument. It's up to the United States to decide all of its policies. So what? That doesn't make it unreasonable for outsiders to comment on how stupid or broken they are. Similarly broken policies in other countries aren't really much justification either.
        • JoeAltmaier 13y ago
          And how broken were they? Clearly the agents had just caught a smuggler; the OP said so. They were performing their duties up to some standard. This article is essentially about a 'false positive' by the border agents, nothing more.
      • lotsofcows 13y ago
        Pretty ironic considering the US started producing tourism adverts. Maybe they should add a disclaimer to the bottom: only applicable to WASPs with $10k in the bank who have never left their home country before.
      • Jacqued 13y ago
        On the other hand, one may contest the premise that a country has a right to refuse entrance to any individual. I, for one, would rather live in a world where individuals are free to travel at will (protected by international agreements) than in one where only goods and money benefit from this kind of protection. As someone who lives in a Schengen area country, I experience both, so maybe that influences my opinions : it seems quite retrograde and unbearable to forbid people to just travel as they wish.
      • busterarm 13y ago
        I also have some pretty horrible experiences with the Canadian border (about as bad as the US side seems to be for most). I was denied entry once for an entirely frivolous reason (before anyone asks, no, no criminal record or DUI or anything) and it made subsequent entries extremely difficult/stressful but I was not turned away. Edit: That second link. Trust me on this: the worst innocent thing you can ever tell a CBSA agent is that you're dating a Canadian. Especially if the agent decides that they don't like you. I'm also never going back to Canada, because there's nothing up there worth it for me to be treated that way.
    • yashodhan 13y ago
      It's not my country, you assumptive douche. The author was rejected from entering the USA on arguably questionable, but still legal terms. Based on his account, I'm forced to believe he acted appropriately, and therefore I feel bad for him, but he doesn't have a given right to enter a foreign country. My advice remains. Custom officials in airports are much better equipped to handle foreigners. So, to hedge your safest bets for next time you go to the US, make the airport your first port of entry.
      • Anderkent 13y ago
        > The author was rejected from entering the USA on arguably questionable, but still legal terms. And no one was questioning the legality of this. Legal does not mean good. >My advice remains. Custom officials in airports are much better equipped to handle foreigners. So, to hedge your safest bets for next time you go to the US, make the airport your first port of entry. How is that not broken? Why should it matter if you enter via airport or train. There was no reason to turn him away, other than misperceptions and bigocy by the border agents. That's what should be fixed.
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
• aneeskA 13y ago
  It is in US that you will realize your name is your biggest enemy.
  • thaumasiotes 13y ago
    Under US law, any person may change their name to anything at any time for any reason. So if your name is really your biggest enemy, the fix is not so hard.
    • borplk 13y ago
      The fix is somewhere else.
    • dannnnnnny 13y ago
      "If you don't like us mistreating you then change your name". Good point.
      • thaumasiotes 13y ago
        Let me suggest that if, in fact, your largest problem is something you can make vanish immediately, just by wishing it to be so, then you don't have many, or serious, problems. Obviously, it's demeaning to change your name just because someone else doesn't like it. If it were actually giving you trouble, it wouldn't be a hard choice.
• bloodorange 13y ago
  Good choice. I hope enough people take their money elsewhere and eventually some good might come out of it.
• lingoberry 13y ago
  Something similar happened to me recently. I voluntarily left my job at a US employer, planning to move back home (to Sweden). But first I wanted to spend some time preparing for the move and waiting for my wife to wrap things up. The rules say you have to leave the country the last day of work, so I left for Canada to stay with a friend, and planned to come back on the visa waiver program. I consulted with the company's immigration lawyers and they said this shouldn't be a problem. The US border agents thought differently. After being held and interrogated for 4 hours like a criminal, they concluded that I was lying and they thought I would try to illegally immigrate to the US, because I didn't have enough financial ties to my home country. I had a green card on the way when I quit my job so why wouldn't I just stay if I wanted to immigrate so badly? They didn't care about that or anything else I said. I was sent back into Canada with most of my belongings still being in the US. "Entering the US is a privilege, not a right" I was told. Once you get denied entry it is very difficult to get in again, and you need a visa etc. I decided it was just easier to fly home at that point. I realize now that I was naive, and many of you would probably say it was my own fault. I thought that if I did something that is not against the rules, things would be fine. Afterwards I found out though that entry into the US is completely the discretion of the border guards. Even if you are legally following the rules, they can deny you on a whim. In this case, I believe they thought I was taking advantage by just leaving the US for a few days and coming back. Which is a valid concern I guess, but if that's so, why wouldn't they put a time limit on how long you have to be away? I think part of my naivety comes from my trusting upbringing in a rural part of a small country. Either way, it was not the best end to my 5 years in the US, and I doubt I'll be going back anytime soon. This experience just cemented once more that the US is not a country I wish to live in permanently, and have my kids grow up in.
  • nabla9 13y ago
    Kafkaesque. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkaesque#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafkaesque#Legacy
  • vasilipupkin 13y ago
    So the logic goes something like this: something bad happened to me once in country X. Therefore, I will not go back to country X. So, if something bad happens to you in Sweden, say a policeman is rude to you, or something like that, will you leave Sweden because of it ?
• alkonaut 13y ago
  What is immigration control doing these days when very few people actually get stamps in passports? And if I have stamps from Somalia and Libya in my passport, why would I go to the US wihtout first getting a new blank passport? Are stamps in passport really that useful?
  • markild 13y ago
    That's my problem with these kinds of scenarios. An honest person with a truthful passport will be punished, while someone with a blank passport might not be looked at twice.
    • adrianb 13y ago
      Actually I traveled to Japan with a blank passport and was selected for additional checks. Nothing aggressive or in any way impolite, but I would guess a blank passport would be regarded suspicious in many instances.
  • mcv 13y ago
    If people start doing that, they'll probably start rejecting people with passports less than half a year old.
  • EliRivers 13y ago
    I keep two passports; one gets stamps from interesting countries, and the other one is used for going to places where being well-travelled is considered suspicious (such as, it seems, the U.S.). Edit: To expand, in the UK it used to be as easy as writing a letter explaining why you needed a second (maybe it still is; haven't tried for a while). I've also got a third passport, from a different country, but so far not needed it.
  • girvo 13y ago
    I have two passports, two different countries (being a dual citizen has it's uses). Countries that I want to visit that other countries dont go in one of them, everything else in the other. Makes life easier in general if you travel a lot.
  • 13y ago
• w_t_payne 13y ago
  Beautiful country. Wonderful, creative, friendly people. Horrible, over-complex, hostile bureaucracy. I am pretty sure I'm not going back, either.
  • alan_cx 13y ago
    Problem there is that the US loudly and fundamentally claims to be a democracy. If we are to accept that, then we have to accept that the government embodies the will of its people. Or, seriously consider that the US is genuinely no longer a real democracy. It is a real shame, as you imply. American people have done incredible things which contribute to the world in general in a positive way, and the country its self is undoubtedly spectacular and beautiful. But the political atmosphere, the general fear, and the resulting attitudes are a total bar to me. These days I even worry about using US internet services since merely doing so can put me in the sights of US authorities and their insane legal system and laws. Worse still, my own government literally bend over for the US government. In short, a great people are strangling them selves.
    • crusso 13y ago
      the government embodies the will of its people Like most people who vote have any understanding of what the government does or much less what the consequences of those actions are. Voting choices in the US are much like religion choices and football team choices -- nonsensical tribalism at its finest.
      • IanDrake 13y ago
        >Voting choices in the US are much like religion choices and football team choices This is only true because people fail to vote (or even pay attention) in the primaries. By the time you get to the general election you get two terrible choices produced by the establishment. The result is that there is no difference between the two party candidates. Sure they're made to sound different, but policy and execution is the same.
        • 13y ago
• blaco 13y ago
  I wonder what other countries have this "non-friendly countries" policy, it could be good to know.
  • nraynaud 13y ago
    Israel is the first that comes to mind.
  • walshemj 13y ago
    Isreal / Arab country's and Cyprus are some that come to mind in the middle east you just get a second passport if you need to go to both
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
• bsdetector 13y ago
  > When I'm supposed to watch my words, I tend to say the wrong ones. No kidding. Volunteering that he was in Al Qaeda territory... to take pictures of plants. Saying he's a nihilist. Suggesting that the levees in New Orleans might break again while he's visiting. Having Jewish ancestry, but denying being Jewish because not religious. Also appears he was also traveling alone to many of these places, without any business reason. Entering the US through Canada without having business in Canada sounds like somebody trying to come in a back door, and being nervous to boot. Even from this one side of the story I'd say the border patrol did their job just fine. I wouldn't have let him into the country in that story.
  • NateDad 13y ago
    I think you're wrong, and I'm sorry that people like you are the ones working on the border. He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing. He had tons of proof of that. The border patrol were paranoid and idiotic. Keeping random people out who "seem" like they might be dangerous is not going to prevent any problems. It's just going to make the rest of the world hate us more.
    • raverbashing 13y ago
      "He was obviously travelling all around the world sight-seeing" This is not so obvious. This is one of the possible points of view, of course. "He had tons of proof of that" For example? I'm not sure other countries stamp a reason for entry like the US, it's usually an entry stamp for anything and that's it. I'm also sympathetic to the author, but he was extremely naive. The border control doesn't want to hear about nice food or nice wildlife or other blah blah blah. Direct and cooled down answers will do. "On Vacation" is fine. It's clear his answers (and passport stamps) rang a ton of bells.
      • spuz 13y ago
        Why don't border control want to hear the details of a person's travel history? It would seem naive to me to try to hide details that could help you.
• cstross 13y ago
  Interestingly, in the developed world it seems to be the Anglophone countries that have the shittiest attitude towards border control these days. The US is notoriously user-hostile at the borders. The UK is doing its best to catch up in a Mini-Me way with the USA's Dr Evil, and is actually on course to become even more hostile than the USA -- the only mitigating factor is that the third degree is reserved for non-citizens, so far. Australia under Tony Abbot runs concentration camps for victims of famine, civil war on Nauru: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/25/manu-j25.html http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/25/manu-j25.html And denying asylum to Hazara victims of taliban terrorism: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/asylum-australia-hazara-pakistan-rudd http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/asylum-australi... And in the UK, Home Secretary Theresa May considers immigration control to be more important than the lives of mentally ill people who have been tortured by Boko Haram: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/16/end-of-life-plan-hunger-striker http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/16/end-of-life-p...
  • thomasz 13y ago
    I would appreciate if you wouldn't cite the 'world socialist website - Published by the International Committee of the Fourth International' as a reputable source. Some of their articles are surprisingly good, but it's still the publication of an obscure trotzkyist sect.
    • cstross 13y ago
      What's your problem with Trotskyite news sources? I assume most folks here are smart enough to evaluate any given news site on the basis of its accuracy and to differentiate between editorial bias and factual incorrectness. If you really can't bear to see news and opinions from sources you personally disagree with, how are you ever going to test your opinions?
      • nols 13y ago
        That's not really how it works, you can't cite a source and then have people evaluate it on its accuracy. We don't know enough to know the accuracy, that's why you used a citation. A publication's reputation is what people use as a benchmark for its accuracy. There are scientific studies saying smoking isn't harmful, and it's totally a coincidence they're funded by tobacco companies. That's why a source's reputation is important.
• vixen99 13y ago
  As someone said, 'bin Laden has won'.
• jballanc 13y ago
  I don't think it's ever been easy to get into the US. A tour through Ellis Island will tell you as much. The difference is that, in the past, the US needed its immigrants. They built its cities and its railroads and much of the US's early industry. Later the US's immigrants were its main source of scientific advancements...but the US's relationship with its immigrants has, I think, always been strained. The difference is that, today, there seems to have been a shift in attitude. The US no longer thinks that it needs its immigrants. On top of that, the world is a different place today. No longer is "the American dream" unique to America. I know many people who've started businesses and found great success elsewhere in the world. It may be cliche to say, but only time will tell if the US's new attitude toward immigrants is justified or will prove its undoing. In the mean time, the world is a great big place with many wonderful things to see and people to meet. I don't think you'll miss much if you never go back...
  • mcv 13y ago
    The country is made almost entirely out of immigrants. It's bizarre that they're so closed off and scared of immigrants; they themselves are the children of immigrants.
    • twoodfin 13y ago
      The US has a higher per capita net migration rate than every major European country other than Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migrat... More than three times that of France, for example.
      • carbocation 13y ago
        Add Luxembourg, Spain, and a few others to that list.
        • twoodfin 13y ago
          You're right of course. I should have included Spain. Luxembourg and Cyprus don't have two million people between them.
• davegardner 13y ago
  Back in the late 90's the US was fairly high on my list of travel destinations. At the time I didn't have the finances to visit. Because of stories like this, it's slipping so low on my list that I'll likely never get there.
  • girvo 13y ago
    I've been, twice. I'm not going back either :(
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• fenesiistvan 13y ago
  Coming from Romania, I also had to face some extra control in US airports + we also need visa which is given also after an interview. Romania is a country with zero terrorism. I only wish US people to be treated in EU the same way they treat EU people in US.
  • alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    Two wrongs make a right.
    • thaumasiotes 13y ago
      There are plenty of reciprocal visa policies; I understand that China charges US visitors a fee equal to the fee the US charges Chinese, and Brazil's horrific bureaucracy is also just trying to match what they feel Brazilians have to go through if they want to enter the US. The concept sort of makes sense; I can envision a situation where tourists are appalled by visa procedures (especially if they're going to Brazil) and pressure their politicians to lighten up. The major flaw there is that most americans will never want a visa anyway, so it ends up being a largely invisible protest on the part of the other countries.
      • alexeisadeski3 13y ago
        >The major flaw there is that most americans will never want a visa anyway, so it ends up being a largely invisible protest on the part of the other countries. Most Americans don't even have passports! [1] By punishing the tiny fraction of Americans visiting Brazil or China, these countries are simply shooting themselves in the foot. It's a mostly invisible protest - and the only people witnessing said protest are the ones who already like you. [1] http://andrewhy.de/percent-of-americans-with-passports/ http://andrewhy.de/percent-of-americans-with-passports/
  • GFischer 13y ago
    I used to think that way, but now I don't. Brazil implemented a retaliation policy, where U.S. citizens are treated much like Brazilians are in the U.S. Several nice people from the U.S. have had a bad time as a result, and it made me reconsider - I don't think "an eye for an eye" is such a great thing. If only we could only treat people with power to change things that way :) - but someone traveling is already not a standard U.S. citizen and probably more open by default.
• unlimit 13y ago
  I don't think people from third world will think the same way. Even with all the issues United States is still a very coveted country to immigrate to from say India.
• lylejohnson 13y ago
  When I clicked through the link to this article, a window popped up asking me to sign a petition to reinstate Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. Given her recent vote in favor of the Patriot Act, that was an interesting warm-up act for the main article.
  • sigzero 13y ago
    Pelosi is insane.
    • coldcode 13y ago
      Generally insanity seems a requirement for anyone to be in Congress.
  • a3n 13y ago
    But it's OK if a Democrat does it.
• blisterpeanuts 13y ago
  U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors: nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting certain countries. Any of these characteristics trigger an automatic escalation in the interrogation process. This individual, albeit sounding perfectly innocent, unfortunately triggered several hot buttons and the hapless agents were too unimaginative, uninformed, and inflexible to give him benefit of the doubt and let him pass. 99.9% of visitors do pass, because they are consistent with certain profiles--business visitor, tourist visitor, never-been-anywhere-bad visitor. Even for them, it's a rather unpleasant and rude experience that leaves a bad taste. There's no question that our border control and immigration system needs an overhaul. The stupidity and counter productivity of the agents who scrutinize every incoming person (except for a few thousand Mexicans every day, but that's another topic :) inspires little confidence that they would actually recognize a terrorist, who would undoubtedly be carrying a false or sanitized passport to avoid just such questions. I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. If his story gets out to the right person or persons, it might even make a difference. I'm not convinced that Border control people will ever hear about it if posted here, but he can contact them directly: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint-of-rude-and-unprofessional-treatment https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/175/~/complaint... By the way, this kind of profiling or over-profiling is not confined to U.S. Border Control agents. I have seen identical behavior by Canadian agents, too. All I had to do was mention I was going to take a class, and the guy made us go into an interrogation room where he asked repeated, annoying questions to try to entrap me into admitting I was in Canada to work or some such thing. I was born in Canada as it clearly states on my US passport, and he asked me where I was born, then looked at my companion with a sneer on his face as though to show his disbelief. It was entirely unpleasant, but in the end we passed. I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day!
  • DanBC 13y ago
    > I learned not to say I was there to take a class. Just visiting. Hope to spend lots of money. Ok, have a nice day! Isn't lying to those people a really bad idea?
• sleepyhead 13y ago
  Had a similar problem when flying into NYC. With an Iranian visa stamp in my passport. "Why would anyone go to Iran???" the lady at the border control said. Then she wrote CTR on my immigration form (my imagination believes it means 'Check for Terrorist Record'). Then she showed it to a guy with a machine gun and he replied "Is he a fugitive or something?". Had to wait in a room to talk with some guy. I showed him my passport which has a lot of stamps. "Oh so you were backpacking?". Yup. "Ok you go can".
  • alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    >"Ok you go can" Yoda is always the coolest security guard!
    • girvo 13y ago
      I think he'd be certainly More effective than the idiots running the show now.
• joshuaheard 13y ago
  Sounds like the U.S. doesn't want him back. I've traveled to over 30 countries and the U.S. does not have a monopoly on rude bureaucratic custom officials. My worst story is probably in Germany where the border officer would not let me take the used car I had purchased in Germany across the border because the chain of title in my registration was out of order. He ended up calling all the previous owners in the title to determine the proper chain of title before he would let me leave the country with it.
  • JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Sounds like an actual financial issue - not to you, but perhaps to one of the previous owners who was cheated. Turns out not to be the case; the fact that a German checked a paperwork detail is not at all surprising to me.
  • ronaldx 13y ago
    Is that your worst story? I read it like this: Border officer didn't want you to take a car with a wrong/likely-illegal registration across the border - instead took some time and effort to clarify the details and then allowed you to continue. In my mind that officer was doing their job well, and acted rather generously in your favour.
    • joshuaheard 13y ago
      The registration and title were in my name because title had cleared the German DMV. He basically didn't believe his own DMV and started calling previous owners in the middle of the night.
      • ronaldx 13y ago
        It's also difficult to claim that this reflects the current situation in Germany. As best I can tell, Germany hasn't had any road border controls since 2007 (when Czech Rep & Poland implemented Schengen).
        • 13y ago
• ankushnarula 13y ago
  This is disgusting. But then the more I think about I wonder if I was a CBP officer how would I behave if I didn't want to be the officer who allowed a terrorist into the US who manages to succeed with some plot. Far fetched perhaps, but I think that mentality has created a culture in CBP. With that said, I think there's a larger culture of militant xenophobia running rampant in federal, state, and local policing. It's very unnerving - but I guess that's the whole point right? Keep everyone unnerved and therefore divided and under control. On one side you have the people who are afraid of those who are doing the policing and on the other side you have the people afraid of foreigners (or people who "look" like foreigners).
  • busterarm 13y ago
    Some of the people who join CBP tend to be a bit xenophobic to begin with. One of the most bigoted people I've ever met got a job with the CBP after a very brief and unsuccessful stint in the Army where he'd publicly announced to everyone that he was going to Afghanistan to 'kill towelheads'.
  • userulluipeste 13y ago
    "I wonder if I was a CBP officer how would I behave if I didn't want to be the officer who allowed a terrorist into the US who manages to succeed with some plot." Well, how about having solid reasons for detaining someone, something better than "Who takes a coat to the U.S. in the summer?" And speaking about attitude, be polite at least until you have enough incriminating evidence! Just to offer an example from the article itself - shouting at the drug-smuggler was OK in my book, whereas "what the hell were you doing in Yemen" was not.
• neeravkumar 13y ago
  I went for a interview with Facebook recently from India and had a really different experience. The CBP guy was really gentle and just reminded me to not work for Facebook in my days there and that's it, I was in USA. I just had a small carry bag and no luggage so another one of them asked me why I have no luggage and I told them that I am only there for 3 days. I agree US can be a bit paranoid of these things but compared to people trying to enter USA I think very few face the kind of hostility the author faced.
  • JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Agents use their read on a person to determine entry/denial. The OP mentioned all the things he was asked and how he answered. He didn't/couldn't explain his attitude, eye contact, how quickly he answered the questions, facial expressions. You've met people you took an instant dislike to - maybe its their hyper-vigilant appearanch; maybe they involuntarily smile at everything you say making you think they know something you don't know. Things like that can get you turned away at the border.
• auggierose 13y ago
  I remember when I entered the US for the first time in 1999 through the JFK New York airport on my way to San Francisco. I would be studying there, but had all documentation for that, including some necessary documentation for entering the country, in my suitcase. Which was already in the US, while I approached the airport border control. A friendly border control woman walked with me to my suitcase, let me obtain my documentation, and then let me into the country. Could that still happen today? I sincerely doubt it, I would just be sent back straight away. What a shame.
• blei 13y ago
  Anyone have statistics for admittance/denials for different categories of travelers? I keep seeing these anecdotes get lots of attention on Hacker News, and all the comments just respond with more horror story anecdotes. But I worry there might be an echo chamber effect, where people who like to comment on articles of this topic are also the people who are already accustomed to, or feel confirmation bias satisfaction at, hearing about these kinds of horror anecdotes. It's definitely a terrible problem; I'm just wondering if Hacker News commenters are overstating the prevalence of the problem.
• tnuc 13y ago
  He tried to enter on the US Visa Waiver program. If the guard doesn't like you then you don't get in. Getting a visa in advance does make the guard do more paperwork if they refuse entry. From some US gov website; --- To use the program, visitors must waive all rights of review or appeal of decisions made by an immigration officer and all rights to contest action in deportation except for asylum.
  • andor 13y ago
    That is the normal way for many Europeans to visit the US, and pretty much every other country that's friendly to tourists. You just appear at their border and get a tourist visa.
  • dnautics 13y ago
    moreover, he considers it a system with graft to be preferable to what he endured in the US, which basically is an attitude of massive entitlement. While I personally believe a person should generally have the right to unconditionally enter any country, this guy doesn't (as evidenced by his excitement and apparent delight at passing through border controls). So, what, is 'getting the green light' some sort of personal validation? And getting rejected such a huge personal affront that he will never go back to the US because he knew he couldn't bribe one of the officers?
    • dublinclontarf 13y ago
      It is a very unpleasant experience being refused entry to a country, which has considerable lost costs as a result. I had much a similar experience as OP and can only agree.
      • dnautics 13y ago
        I'm not disputing that, but I would suggest a recalibration of the author's other attitudes, then. The author revels in the pomp and circumstance of the border crossing... Just what does he think those are there for?
• davidcollantes 13y ago
  Do, really, immigration officers ask "What the hell where you doing X?" "Aren't those countries Islamic?" There are parts on this writing that are hard to believe, like they were written to sound like a novel, but I have never been on a situation like the one described, not even close.
  • CalRobert 13y ago
    You clearly haven't met the more intellectually challenged of my countrymen (that's most of them, for the record)
  • girvo 13y ago
    I've had UK and Australian Customs officers be similarly incredulous over places I've visited. Honestly, those jobs don't seem to attract the "best and brightest". Nor attract those who even have a passing familiarity with geopolitics and geography. Sigh
    • mcv 13y ago
      Why would any border guard be incredulous over anyone visiting far away places? You'd expect border guards to be used to meeting foreigners. And there's lots of foreign parts in the world. Why would anyone visit X? Because it's there. Because people live there. Because there are things to see. What other reason do you need?
      • a3n 13y ago
        Why would border guards react this way? For some, a job that has arbitrary power attracts people who want arbitrary power.
  • wrongc0ntinent 13y ago
    Some of their questions are there to gauge your response, not get information, but I still have a hard time believing they would call him "a Jew" instead of a version of "Jewish".
  • leoedin 13y ago
• moondowner 13y ago
  This pretty much sums it up: > "We are under the impression you have more ties with more countries we are not on friendly terms with than your own. We decided to bring you back to the Canadian border."
• Jean-Philipe 13y ago
  I've submitted this over a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6553418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6553418
  • Dylan16807 13y ago
    Yes, you did. But nobody saw it because it was killed. Next time figure out why, maybe banned domain, and work around it or accept that the story will be lost.
• CalRobert 13y ago
  I don't want to go back, and I'm from there. 5 years to go for citizenship...
  • hartator 13y ago
    5 years to go for citizenship to which country? Do you mind on telling us why (the upsides, the downsides...)? Thank you! :)
• Fuxy 13y ago
  Apparently traveling in a lot of countries is grounds for suspicion in the US. Well if you have multiple citizenship you can always just choose which passport you're going to use so how useful is that really?
  • Jacqued 13y ago
    I know I do, but that's not a solution for everyone. Even if you don't have multiple citizenship, it should probably be standard practice to get a fresh, stamp-less passport if you're planning on travelling to the US or any such hostile country.
    • bobdvb 13y ago
      I am due for a new passport soon, which is a shame because I will loose a few interesting stamps. But it is probably a good thing as my travel seems to be gravitating towards the US soon. I have avoided the US for >10 years now, but work might bring me there again for some visits next year.
  • misterjangles 13y ago
    If you've been traveling to Yemen and Somolia and all over the Middle East to places that do not have good relations with the US - then it wouldn't be a terrible idea to "lose" your passport and get a replacement without all the stamps before entering the US. These stories get everybody riled up but in reality are a tiny fraction of people who enter. I have a story too - when I was visiting Amsterdam I had the most rough body search I have experienced when traveling. Maybe I should never visit there again to see all if the rich culture and friendly people? That'll show 'em! My wife was called into the back room on our way to Aspen because her bag triggered some false alarm. Cross that place off my list, I'm never going skiing there again!
  • taoufix 13y ago
    There should be an app for this: Is is OK to have a [Country X] stamp on my passport when going to [Country Y]?
• monksy 13y ago
  Is this a repost? I could have sworn I've seen this before. I'm not sure if it was on HN or r/truereddit.
  • surge 13y ago
    It was on truereddit on the guys blog: http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/ http://dasmag.nl/why-i-will-never-return-to-the-usa/ His crack about a major tragedy (levees breaking) probably is what did him in.
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• toolslive 13y ago
  My boss (he's European) has 2 passports: one to visit the Arab world, Russia, ... and another for the US. At one point, I went with him to the US and he accidentally grabbed the wrong passport. Bingo! He was stopped and examined in great detail every time: before entering the tax free zone, before boarding, before entering the US.... It was surreal.
  • eloisant 13y ago
    France actually lets you have 2 password for "incompatible countries". That's usually for Israel and Arab countries. Maybe they will allow it for Arab countries and US too if this goes on.
    • duncans 13y ago
      Same in the UK. I had two passports for a while, one for travelling to UAE, etc and another for Israel.
• FreshCode 13y ago
  As a white foreigner who has considered travelling to the US for a holiday or working in the Valley, these types of reports have a long-term chain reaction on my willingness to start thinking about packing my bags for the States. I wonder if the powers that be understand how far-reaching bad treatments of foreign travellers can be. Or maybe I'm just one developer and my sentiment has no effect in the long run. Do other developers feel the same?
  • CountHackulus 13y ago
    You're not alone, I feel the same. I'm becoming increasingly hesitant to go to the US for a vacation, despite there being some places I really want to visit. I've even turned down two very good job offers in the US. My other developer friends seem to have similar, though not quite as advanced, feelings about the US. When I mention not wanting to go to the US I get plenty of "yeah, I don't blame you" responses.
  • tjansen 13y ago
    US immigration can be complicated, but if there is nothing that would raise flags in your passport, why don't you give it a try for holidays so you know what you are missing (and what not)? It's at least an interesting experience. I love staying in the US for holidays, even if I probably wouldn't want to work in the US.
  • dalyons 13y ago
    You are not alone. I'm a white foreign developer currently in the valley, not working, just visiting and getting involved in the startup scene. The border and customs BS is the number 1 reason I dont think I could stay and work in the US long term, even though my home country(australia) and profession(dev) are on the 'blessed' lists. I'm frankly terrified of the US border/customs for 3 major reasons: 1) I'm afraid some ignorant/overzealous border guard will ask about all the startup events, conferences, hackathons etc that im going to and deciding that im looking to 'work' here, regardless of that being untrue. 2) There's no rules! There's only guidelines! Buy a $2000 ticket to come over to visit? No guarantee you'll be let in, its all completely arbitary and totally up to however bad a day the boarder guard is having. Turns every visit into a (low chance) potential nightmare. It's stressful, doubly so when the attitude you always face is 'prove to me your're not a danger to the US' 3) I have an 'interesting' recent history, did a bunch of travelling over the last year, including through Iran and a bunch of former soviet states, and a few uncommon asian countries. Again, if i get a border guard having a bad day I could easily end up like the OP I hate the borders, they are arrogant, arbitrary, stressful and unpleasant, and will always make me think twice about future US visits.
• laichzeit0 13y ago
  Yeah this looks like the typical American knee-jerk overreaction to everything these days. It reminded me of the story posted on HN a while back about the guy who got 3 enemas and more asshole searches after getting pulled over for skipping a stop sign and clinching his ass cheeks a bit funny on the car seat while the officer was speaking to him. What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared to live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now and then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die?
  • acuozzo 13y ago
    > What the fuck guys, have the terrorists won? Are you really so shit scared to live normal lives with a slight risk that bad things might go wrong now and then, that you might miss a few bombs, that a few people might die? Most US citizens (in the north-east, at least) don't even think about terrorism post-9/11. Our representatives are making these kinds of decisions for (most of) us and we're just along for the ride.
• userulluipeste 13y ago
  "I'm not scared. But it's kind of exciting. It's like I'm in a movie. You're just doing your job. I get that." Like in movies - yeah, "The Departed" police interview scenes comes to my mind. Stamp visas to some other foreign countries? This one was the hallmarks of visa policy in Gaddafi's Libya - the no Israeli ties tolerated (not even touristic visas). Or a raincoat? Really? Speaking about the human rights, how come this kind of behavior is still warranted?
• misterjangles 13y ago
  The other reason he will never, ever go back to the US is because he's likely on a watch list now and will be denied any attempt to enter. It's a shame that happened. The traveler has had an unfortunate interest in traveling to multiple countries with which the US has hostile relationships. And then entered the US in a slightly unconventional way by train via Canada. I think that's a stupid reason to deny entry because an actual "terrorist" would surely have fake documents anyway. Perhaps the moral if the story is to get a replacement passport without the stamps if you have travelled a lot and take a direct flight.
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• infocollector 13y ago
  I'm curious about a few things from this writeup: 1. Who gave this 250+ points?? Is there a way to decrease points? 2. How did this dude get his money to roam around? In this case, the US Immigration Officers did their job right it seems. They do not have enough resources to check what this dude was doing in Yemen, Dubai, Sri Lanka, ... - better safe than sorry. Was he writing from Pakistan and Palestine as well, that he forgot to mention?
• dlsx 13y ago
  But he doesn't have a choice. The USA will not let him in regardless, so saying he won't ever return is a rather moot point. If he was let in to the country and then decided this it would have a much different perspective. He is likely not pleased that he can't get back in he states and thus it is more than likely the OP is not telling the whole truth.
• peterwwillis 13y ago
  As a life-long citizen of the US and a sometimes traveler of the world, I would compare the United States to a theme park in China. You can certainly have fun if you tow the line and pretend that there's nothing better outside the gates. Argue with the concession stand about choice and you might just get brought to a back room with no windows. Bring in food from outside and it's a 3 year jail term. But the rides are nice...
• ma2rten 13y ago
  I hope I step on no ones toes here, but I am becoming more and more convinced that USA is simply a less developed country than Western Europe and Canada. - At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies. - People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage. - Politics is populistic. - The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy). - Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable. - Business has a large(r) influence in the government. I am currently staying in Thailand and since I do so I have developed a better understanding of what it means to be poor and what it means for country to be developed. If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered, but you are facing great unpredictability. A less developed country, is thus a country that can not provide certainty to it's citizens. For instance, I know of people here in Thailand who have gone from very rich (having a chauffeur on staff) to poor (sawing in a factory). I also just saw a documentary about a town in Mexico where many people life in constant fear to get kidnapped or killed and reporting to the police would actually make them a target. I could give endless examples. But I guess the point is, the US has some characteristics that normally a developed economy does not have, but which you would normally find in an emerging one. EDIT: I am not saying that the US is an emerging economy. Most emerging economies have much graver problems than the ones I listed above.
  • jasonlotito 13y ago
    I live in Canada for 10 years... > At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies. On the flip side, they get the long term care they need earlier and more reliably. They can also get this care based on medical advice as opposed to political opinions. There is a reason I moved from Canada to the US for health care, and I've paid less for that care here in the US. > People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage. Depends on where you want to send them. Send your children to MIT and see what you have to pay. > Politics is populistic. It's that way in other countries as well. You just tend to hear more about it because it's the US. > The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy). Again, this can happen anywhere, and it the exception rather than the rule. > Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable. Immigration? Sure. We still let in more than most countries (every other country?). Or are you talking about border entry? > Business has a large(r) influence in the government. Larger? Hardly. Just as large. Do not think for a moment that large companies aren't entrenched in other governments as well. Really, what it comes down to is this: > If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered And that's true in the US as well. Yes, not all parts of the US are equal. We have 50 states, all with their own rules and regulations that are completely different from one another.
• caiob 13y ago
  This is disgusting. And what baffles me is that Americans won't do anything to change that.
• xacaxulu 13y ago
  I'm a US Citizen, currently living abroad. I dread going through CBP when I have to come back through the Orwellian gauntlet. It's as if anyone who wants to travel outside of the US is unpatriotic. I couldn't believe how nice and professional Mexican, Belizean and Guatemalan customs agents have treated me, especially considering the disdain and contempt a seemingly large proportion of US border officials hold for members of those same countries.
  • abalashov 13y ago
    I am a naturalised citizen living abroad and feel exactly the same way on my periodic return visits.
• bayesianhorse 13y ago
  In the long run, there will be no border controls or limitations on immigration in the world. Why? Well, for one thing these controls hardly work at all. Look at the population of illegal immigrants in the US to see how a long fence with vicious patrols and vigorous immigration enforcement still doesn't stop the immigration. Secondly border and immigration controls violate human rights, without due justification. And no, "too much immigrants are inconvenient" is no proper justification for hunting, arresting, detaining and deporting actual human beings. Thirdly cross-border trade and immigration is too valuable for both the poorer and the richer countries.
• __matt 13y ago
  lol he mentioned "al Qaeda", why didn't he just yell "I'm going to blow this train up" Europeans are too rational to cope with border patrol/tsa.
• FWPsuck 13y ago
  One less asshole in the country...
• ilaksh 13y ago
  The border interrogations and searches are not providing any substantive security benefit. It is amazing to me that we permit this to continue. The terrorism myth used to justify hostile wars for resources and territorial control has also been very useful in removing the ordinary rights of citizens at the borders. We should not be surprised if this is extended to the interior of the countries.
• bartkappenburg 13y ago
  And we know that profiling in this way doesn't work: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/science/03screening.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/science/03screening.html
• hackaflocka 13y ago
  Well -- the chickens have come to roost. Terrorism of the 9/11 sort was the result of "faux-colonial faux-terrorism" that certain countries in the west had inflicted on the rest of the world for a long time. And this sort of thing is happening because they can't just do these things to brown-skinned people, once in a while they have to do these things to white-skinned people. Faux-parity, you know. Yummy -- tasty tasty faux-chicken.
• coldshot 13y ago
  Another european citizen getting to learn the realities of the world. As many others mentioned he has no idea about what's going on in EU for 'others'. That attitude is almost the same everywhere in the world, only enemies, minorities and passports need to be watched change.
• deleted 13y ago
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• tobeportable 13y ago
  This website has disabled scrolling and zooming and all keyboard shortcuts in chrome. This UX ...Real ...
• toadi 13y ago
  Well avoid the questioning where you have been by requesting a new travel passport? It's clean so no questions asked?
• yaix 13y ago
  > In the Philippines I had to bribe someone in order to get my visa extended for a few days. No you don't! I have been asked for "visa extention bribes" in many countries. Do not pay them. Cite the countries law and that you follow it. Bribes kill. "Every bribe you pay helps to kill a child." Just don't! What I learned from the story: If I ever go on a US trip, I get a fresh passport first.