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Border agents can search cellphones without a warrant or reasonable suspicion
- tencentshill 10d agoAnd now you're extra suspicious if you don't have one at all
- petcat 10d agoCustoms has always been able to search everything without a warrant or suspicion when crossing the border. I guess this is saying that they can search the digital contents of physical devices/media as well?
- wrs 10d agoIt says they can manually search them. According to this, the ruling explicitly doesn’t say if they can digitally search them.
- inopinatus 10d agodigitally also means “using the fingers”, so never consent to a digital search without prior clarification
- esafak 10d agoYou using the whole fist, doc?
- SoftTalker 10d agoBreathe easy.
- LocalH 9d agoTwo in the pink, one in the stink
- otterley 10d agoNot everything. From the case itself: "To be sure, nonroutine searches, which are “more invasive searches, like strip searches, require reasonable suspicion.” Id. But we have held that “the label ‘non-routine’ should generally be reserved for intrusive border searches of the person (such as body-cavity searches or strip searches), not belongings.” United States v. Levy, 803 F.3d 120, 123 n.3 (2d Cir. 2015) (emphasis added)."
- righthand 10d agoSo carry a separate device while traveling. Or wipe your phone, then restore after the border. This is just going to lead to a service that does this for you and the overreaching feds won’t be able to do anything about it. And as far as I can tell you still don’t have to give them your pin code.
- peezd 10d agoIt's been somewhat established that having a wiped or basic phone is in itself sus and reason for them to investigate you further.
- iamnothere 10d agoThey can investigate all they want, they can even detain you briefly, but if you are a citizen and there’s no evidence of a crime then they have to let you in.
- CamperBob2 10d agoThey have more guns than you do, and these days, most of the judges are blindly and shamelessly on their side. They don't "have" to do jack.
- iamnothere 10d agoYou’re fearmongering. Despite what some may say, it’s not Nazi Germany. Rule of law still has sway. Find me caselaw where a “basic” phone was used as valid evidence. Or where the phone was already empty when someone began to approach the border.
- tokai 10d agoRule of Law was very strong in Nazi Germany. Everything that regime did was legal in Germany at the time.
- 0xbadcafebee 10d agoThe problem with these laws isn't that they can search you at the border. It's that they can search you within 100 miles of the border (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception). The total number of people who live within that zone is 213 Million people, or 2/3 of the total population (https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone).
- ramesh31 10d agoThe best time to delete all social media accounts and never post anything online with your name attached ever again was 10 years ago. The second best time is right now. This stuff can and will be used against you out of context 10, 20, 30 years into the future.
- derwiki 10d agoCompletely agree. Does HN comply with CCPA requests?
- jjbinx007 10d agoAlso consider the fact that if someone else makes accounts in your name (whether maliciously or simply because they share the same name) I imagine this could be used against you.
- esikich 10d agoThis has happened to multiple people I know who have deleted a Facebook account. Shortly after, a fake account with their picture and info popped up. I wonder if there are bots scanning for this waiting for people to delete accounts.
- LeBit 10d agoI always thought it was bold for people to post anything using their real identity. You never know if a stance you have now will be frowned upon in 5 or 10 years from now. I’ve heard you can’t pass customs with a phone without your social network accounts.
- mmh0000 10d agoIt is insane to me that judges consistently rule that the constitution doesn't apply because there's a "border" within 100 miles. The 4th Amendment says, exactly: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I do not know how that could be unclear. My cellphone is my effect, and arguably, also a "paper". Which SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED. But apparently, I'm too dumb to understand the sentence[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United...
- esafak 10d agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception apparently
- flerchin 10d agoYeah the plain language is unambiguous. That there is an historical border search exception simply doesn't matter to me. We fought a war for this, and it's bullshit.
- rtkwe 10d agoSo the main argument is that in the time that was written and immediately afterwards we can look to see what they mean by that by how it was implemented. At the time it was understood that the government could and would search goods as they enter the country without warrants to enforce things like tariffs. I think that's a fairly reasonable interpretation of the meaning. Where I think this goes wrong (and maybe deviates from history?) is the conflation of papers and other digital records now with physical goods, historically were people's papers searched as they entered the country (beyond say looking through them to find hidden goods, I mean reading and examining letters and records)?
- alistairSH 10d ago
- andix 10d agoAnyone still crossing US borders with electronic devices that aren't fully wiped? This is company policy for some European companies for a long time. Even during the Biden administration. Most employees just receive a wiped phone/laptop for the duration of the trip. Depending on the country its either a device that only has access to the bare minimum of Services, or for countries like Russia they issue a dumb phone that can only call and text.
- iamnothere 10d agoHalf of the commenters here seem to believe that nobody has ever done this successfully because it must be “suspicious”. Despite it being a common practice for many organizations.
- andix 10d agoIt might be suspicious, but they don't get any incriminating evidence that way. It's also much easier for people visiting. Most of the time entry is denied and you can take the next plane back home. I'm fine with that, don't care. I only care if I would get taken into ICE detention. This risk grew significantly, so I simply won't go.
- FireBeyond 10d agoYou make it sound so "meh, whatever", but there's a few realities attached to this: The airline in question will likely not serve you again, but probably more importantly, when you apply for a tourist visa to just about any country on earth, you'll now have to answer that question "Have you ever been denied or refused a visa or entry into a country?" and while some might take sympathy on "Oh, yeah, we get it", you can be sure you'll be getting extra attention and some countries will threaten to deny entry too.
- andix 10d agoLol no. Nobody cares. Also airlines don't care. Edit: typical US perspective. Something that happens in the US doesn't have relevant implications to the rest of the world.
- gigel82 10d agoThis is confusing; what happens to you if you refuse a warantless search of your property? I'm a US citizen returning home. Do they just... send me back out of the country? :) I don't suppose they'd have the grounds to arrest me since there is no law that I can see being broken. I suppose they could keep the device until such time that a warrant could be obtained to digitally search / break into the device (but that requires some reasonable suspicion - simply refusing a warantless search isn't it).
- boldlybold 10d agoThey let you in and keep your property. I've never had an issue at a border, but I still keep my devices encrypted and powered off when crossing.
- crooked-v 10d ago[flagged]
- deleted 10d ago[deleted]
- krsw 10d ago[flagged]
- aDyslecticCrow 10d agoThey can put you in custody.
- mixdup 10d agoNot for this they can't. They can seize your belongings but they can't detain you for something that isn't a crime and they cannot prevent you from entering the country if you're a citizen. You have an absolute right per Supreme Court rulings to enter the country unconditionally as a citizen
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- _2pou 10d agoIt's a massive swing and a miss that GrapheneOS has a religious opposition to a VeraCrypt-style hidden volume arrangement that allows different passwords to unlock different OS volumes. It would be vastly superior to their current solution, which basically guarantees contempt charges. I hope they change their mind soon!
- UncleOxidant 10d agoThis. There should be a password that unlocks to a fairly minimal, but not too minimal configuration that wouldn't have anything of interest on it.
- SoftTalker 10d agoWhat do you imagine being on your phone that is "of interest" to CBP at a border crossing?
- projektfu 10d agoPerhaps a screenshot of a politically-incorrect social media post. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49759504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49759504
- PaulKeeble 10d agoThe problem is it will be detectable and detected and then the password demanded and a failure to provide it will result in charges. I think unfortunately the answer is the phone has to be plausibly empty when crossing the US border, they should focus their efforts on being able to store the full state of the phone remotely and encrypted and being able to restore it easily.
- mixdup 10d agoWould it be detectable to some goon at the border? Probably not. They'd put in the sanitized password, see nothing, and let the person go. If it gets seized and an FBI or CIA analyst gets ahold of it, then yeah the smart guys are going to see it but you'd be in that situation anyway, so why not have an out that may avoid it?
- fsiefken 10d agoThis happened to me last month in Halifax Canada, I wanted to board a transfer flight to Amsterdam, going through Boston. I was stopped as I had salts with me from a buddhist relic I couldn't exactly identify. The machine said it contained a primary explosive (silver azide). I was ordered to give my access code to my iphone and 3 suspicious screenshots were found I made 2 years ago about the Iran/Israel war. I said I'm interested in geo-politics and watched the news. I was barred from the US for life - it was said that it could have been much worse. When I wanted to go to the main airport hall a number of canadian police officers arrested me and drove me handcuffed to a cell. I was asked if I wanted a lawyer and they arranged a phone call. The lawyer said I would spend to nights in a cell and then she would come to prepare my case and was strongly advised not to talk to people before that. I was released from my cell 7 hours later that evening after a thorough and friendly conversation with the canadian special police. I can understand that security don't want to take any chances with people carrying supposed explosive powders on an airport, so the system was doing it's protective job. That day there was a threat alert I heard later. A week later I heard from the person who gave me the relic (I was on retreat) that the border guard contacted them and said it was a false positive (what I suspected at the time, but I didn't dare argue against the machine results).
- jm4 10d agoYou were barred for life over a false positive? That's crazy.
- teachrdan 10d agoThey were barred for life for having screenshots the current administration considers anti-American.
- fsiefken 9d agoThe 2024 screenshots I had forgotten about involved A) an X by Denys Davidov - a youtuber commenting on the Ukranian-Russian war - where commented on IS suicide bombers B) an infographic on the Israel-Iran war with a map with explosions C) another one i have forgotten about I can understand that if a machine detects something questionable and my phone has these things, that that could be reason to search and question me thoroughly given a general high alert.
- ChrisArchitect 10d ago[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49754687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49754687
- ErroneousBosh 10d agoGiven that the US's economy is utterly dependent on tourism, do they just not want to have money any more or something? Because who in their right mind is ever going to travel there at the moment?
- Tumblewood 10d agoThe US's economy is definitely not "utterly dependent on tourism".
- lucaspm98 10d agoIt’s hard to find an authoritative source with perfect data but it seems unanimous the US is in the bottom quintile in terms of share of GDP from tourism. Almost all countries below the US have much more immediate concerns about physical safety.
- LeBit 10d agoLand of the … laugh … free!
- deleted 10d ago[deleted]
- calamari7063 10d ago[dead]
- CircuitSeuss 10d agoWhat a terrible fucked up system.
- 31337Logic 10d agoHow the fuck did we let this happen?! Apathy. That's how. If we fight back now, we can save what's left of this dying "democracy" before it's too late. Our grandfathers didn't die for this. Pathetic.
- rdm_blackhole 10d agoIt's the same in other countries like the UK for example. You can get stopped at the border, forced to talk to the border agents, you do not have the right to have a lawyer in the room during the interrogation (although you can have one phone call before your interrogation starts), you do not have the right to refuse to answer questions and they will seize your phone and computers and send them back to you later. Also you will have to provide your passwords and pin-codes for your devices. This guy went through it last year: https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=AFfJA3erydfZZFj1 https://youtu.be/991kRp8KUmo?si=AFfJA3erydfZZFj1
- pvaldes 9d agoIn your opinion, has the tourism recovered?. Because it seems like somebody does not want that. Each time tourists try to approach US again, the government hisses.
- brachkow 9d agoIt’s crazy that back in Belarus in 2021 we laughed off our friend who gave his phone & password to search to a solider who approached him during his commute to university. We couldn’t expect that it will became a norm in our country, not to mention “civilized world”. But it did… Just five year later same practice is OK in US. Same US that was busy with ethical question of unlocking or not unlocking terrorists iPhones in past decade. Tech is going from Wild West to Cyber Gulag.
- tornado134 9d ago[dead]