4 ms·

Note that their statement could also be true if they record 99% of the time. We need to start calling companies out for meaningless weasel statements like "We

Note that their statement could also be true if they record 99% of the time. We need to start calling companies out for meaningless weasel statements like "We don't record continuously". The majority of the problem is also simply the ability to record. Putting a remote control listening hardware on a device that runs a plethora of 3rd party apps and with full connection to the internet means that even if LG isn't controlling that mic, someone else will be.

seemaze 22d ago
As someone who hasn’t owned a television in decades, why would a TV even need a microphone in the first place? How many other household devices have a microphone whose primary function is orthogonal to recording audio?
- shrubble 22d ago
  Every speaker can be used as a microphone if the circuitry is added to do so.
  - Bud 22d ago
    Even the screen itself can be used as a microphone, and a pretty good one, too.
  - mesrik 22d ago
    Many common SOC's MediaTek, Realtek, and Broadcom SOC's quite often used modern audio capable devices analog pins can be software defined either input or output. IIRC I saw already Bruce Schneider's blog some team proof of concept where they listened using laptop speakers what was spoken in that room. Audio quality wasn't perfect, but it making sense what was spoken was good enough.
    - hilbert42 22d ago
      "…I saw already Bruce Schneider's blog some team proof of concept where they listened using laptop speakers what was spoken in that room." Users need to know the electrical features of their H/W and its limits. If a loudspeaker output stage is designed (hardware wired) so that it can never act as an input then no later firmware update can turn the speaker into a microphone. This is why hardware authentication is becoming more and more important. limits
      - mesrik 21d ago
        Right, it's true that if there is an amplifier stage then it doesn't work. But some devices have had also tiny speakers used for for user interface audio feedback mechanism also used beeping error codes etc. Those SoC can drive that kind load of quite well directly and there is just a tiny speaker coil from IO-pins. That kind of speaker can function lousy microphones. That's what that PoC was all about.
- fodkodrasz 22d ago
  Of course it is needed in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen ... Some "smart" TVs could do skype in the past, I'm not sure if they needed external headsets of worked with builtin mikes.
- ygjb 22d ago
  There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases. Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice commands for the user, and allow them to be used as voice assistants. They also enable tvs with a camera and microphone to be used as video calling or audio calling interfaces. Used well we get star Trek view screens, used poorly we get little brother monitoring. For those interested, it turns the tv into an interactive terminal for voice and camera powered video games, which are becoming more popular. Unfortunately advertising and tracking incentives drive the abuse cases to the top and will crush the positive use cases :(
  - tmpz22 22d ago
    > Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature Made nearly moot by the presence of microphones in most (all?) modern remotes. I say nearly moot because its worth noting the ability to operate a physical remote may itself be prohibitive to some. So in effect, there are a multitude microphones in a modern LG environment.
    - ygjb 22d ago
      a tv may be the only shared device in low income homes.
  - GreenVulpine 22d ago
    There's no practical reason for most people. Spying is the primary function. Edge cases like accessibility or conferencing can be easily enabled with an add on USB mic. You'd need a USB webcam with mic for conferencing anyway.
    - qlte 22d ago
      People use voice commands on TV remotes all the time if they're using streaming apps. At this point it's the default way to interact with the UI for many people. Typing out the show you're searching for with an awkward onscreen keyboard is a huge pain compared to just clicking a button and speaking. HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising to learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV.
- germandiago 22d ago
  1984 purposes.
  - hilbert42 22d ago
    Orwell's 80 years ahead of his time. The great unwashed who watch Netflix etc. either don't know or don't care that they're mirroring the closing moments of the book. The warning has been there for 80 years and still most are unaware. When Vespasian built the Colosseum it was to help rule over the unruly. Netflix and ilk are its modern incarnation.
- HPsquared 22d ago
  Voice recognition is really useful when searching. It's annoying to type with a TV remote. Also you can just say what you want like "play breaking bad on Netflix" and it'll just do it. Edit: also the mic in the remote has a function to calibrate the speakers to the room (correcting for the impulse response of the room basically) which can make the audio much better.
  - GrinningFool 22d ago
    Since you're using it for Netflix, etc I assume it has unrestricted Internet access. With that and microphone access, you're giving tacit permission to capture and upload basically whatever it wants, to whoever it wants. That seems unwise, no matter how helpful the features are.
  - laylower 21d ago
    The reason is annoying to type is that they prefer you say it out loud, not because they can't provide a better ui.
    - HPsquared 21d ago
      Even with easy typing, it's a single step (say what you want) vs multiple UI operations. This applies to cars too.
- deleted 22d ago
  [deleted]
cassianoleal 22d ago
In any case, "We don't record continuously" is still recording. They should not be recording at all!
- tredre3 22d ago
  Enough with the knee jerk reactions. They have to record in some cases. You don't have to like those features, but plenty of people want those features. - The television has voice control. - The television has a manually triggered speech-to-text feature so you don't have to type with tv remote.
  - deleted 22d ago
    [deleted]
  - GrinningFool 22d ago
    You'd think if that was all they recorded for, they would be saying it very loudly to end the speculation that weasel-wording leads to.
    - anon48293 21d ago
      But they did say that? "LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature."
  - matheusmoreira 22d ago
    > Enough with the knee jerk reactions. No. Stop minimizing their abuse.
  - hananova 22d ago
    You simply do not say something like “we don’t record continuously” if the reality is that you only record when voice control or speech to text is active. Given the entire industry’s track record, the only sane thing to do when confronted with weasel wording is to assume the truth is the worst possible interpretation that isn’t a blatant lie, and even then, sometimes it is just a blatant lie. Here’s some examples: - We don’t record continuously -> We record nearly all the time, only stopping to upload the recording. - We do not sell your data -> But we do “share” it. - All your data is protected from unauthorized LLM scraping -> But we define all the big tech companies as authorized scraping.
isodev 22d ago
> The majority of the problem is also simply the ability to record. Exactly, and recent announcements like Apple normalising always on recording, even wrapped in “big promises” on privacy, deserve a lot more attention and strong regulation.
isp 22d ago
Yes. Another example: > If no wake word is detected, the audio is processed locally, promptly deleted, and is not transmitted to LG servers. This statement could still be true when: * The audio transmission is to non-LG servers (e.g., Alphonso). * The audio isn't transmitted, but the text transcription is.
- beached_whale 22d ago
  or a hash like other audio recognition techniques.

seemaze 22d ago

As someone who hasn’t owned a television in decades, why would a TV even need a microphone in the first place? How many other household devices have a microphone whose primary function is orthogonal to recording audio?

shrubble 22d ago
Every speaker can be used as a microphone if the circuitry is added to do so.
- Bud 22d ago
  Even the screen itself can be used as a microphone, and a pretty good one, too.
- mesrik 22d ago
  Many common SOC's MediaTek, Realtek, and Broadcom SOC's quite often used modern audio capable devices analog pins can be software defined either input or output. IIRC I saw already Bruce Schneider's blog some team proof of concept where they listened using laptop speakers what was spoken in that room. Audio quality wasn't perfect, but it making sense what was spoken was good enough.
  - hilbert42 22d ago
    "…I saw already Bruce Schneider's blog some team proof of concept where they listened using laptop speakers what was spoken in that room." Users need to know the electrical features of their H/W and its limits. If a loudspeaker output stage is designed (hardware wired) so that it can never act as an input then no later firmware update can turn the speaker into a microphone. This is why hardware authentication is becoming more and more important. limits
    - mesrik 21d ago
      Right, it's true that if there is an amplifier stage then it doesn't work. But some devices have had also tiny speakers used for for user interface audio feedback mechanism also used beeping error codes etc. Those SoC can drive that kind load of quite well directly and there is just a tiny speaker coil from IO-pins. That kind of speaker can function lousy microphones. That's what that PoC was all about.
fodkodrasz 22d ago
Of course it is needed in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen ... Some "smart" TVs could do skype in the past, I'm not sure if they needed external headsets of worked with builtin mikes.
ygjb 22d ago
There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases. Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice commands for the user, and allow them to be used as voice assistants. They also enable tvs with a camera and microphone to be used as video calling or audio calling interfaces. Used well we get star Trek view screens, used poorly we get little brother monitoring. For those interested, it turns the tv into an interactive terminal for voice and camera powered video games, which are becoming more popular. Unfortunately advertising and tracking incentives drive the abuse cases to the top and will crush the positive use cases :(
- tmpz22 22d ago
  > Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature Made nearly moot by the presence of microphones in most (all?) modern remotes. I say nearly moot because its worth noting the ability to operate a physical remote may itself be prohibitive to some. So in effect, there are a multitude microphones in a modern LG environment.
  - ygjb 22d ago
    a tv may be the only shared device in low income homes.
- GreenVulpine 22d ago
  There's no practical reason for most people. Spying is the primary function. Edge cases like accessibility or conferencing can be easily enabled with an add on USB mic. You'd need a USB webcam with mic for conferencing anyway.
  - qlte 22d ago
    People use voice commands on TV remotes all the time if they're using streaming apps. At this point it's the default way to interact with the UI for many people. Typing out the show you're searching for with an awkward onscreen keyboard is a huge pain compared to just clicking a button and speaking. HN users are very much in a bubble if it's surprising to learn consumers expect voice control functionality on a new TV.
germandiago 22d ago
1984 purposes.
- hilbert42 22d ago
  Orwell's 80 years ahead of his time. The great unwashed who watch Netflix etc. either don't know or don't care that they're mirroring the closing moments of the book. The warning has been there for 80 years and still most are unaware. When Vespasian built the Colosseum it was to help rule over the unruly. Netflix and ilk are its modern incarnation.
HPsquared 22d ago
Voice recognition is really useful when searching. It's annoying to type with a TV remote. Also you can just say what you want like "play breaking bad on Netflix" and it'll just do it. Edit: also the mic in the remote has a function to calibrate the speakers to the room (correcting for the impulse response of the room basically) which can make the audio much better.
- GrinningFool 22d ago
  Since you're using it for Netflix, etc I assume it has unrestricted Internet access. With that and microphone access, you're giving tacit permission to capture and upload basically whatever it wants, to whoever it wants. That seems unwise, no matter how helpful the features are.
- laylower 21d ago
  The reason is annoying to type is that they prefer you say it out loud, not because they can't provide a better ui.
  - HPsquared 21d ago
    Even with easy typing, it's a single step (say what you want) vs multiple UI operations. This applies to cars too.
deleted 22d ago
[deleted]

cassianoleal 22d ago

In any case, "We don't record continuously" is still recording. They should not be recording at all!

tredre3 22d ago
Enough with the knee jerk reactions. They have to record in some cases. You don't have to like those features, but plenty of people want those features. - The television has voice control. - The television has a manually triggered speech-to-text feature so you don't have to type with tv remote.
- deleted 22d ago
  [deleted]
- GrinningFool 22d ago
  You'd think if that was all they recorded for, they would be saying it very loudly to end the speculation that weasel-wording leads to.
  - anon48293 21d ago
    But they did say that? "LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature."
- matheusmoreira 22d ago
  > Enough with the knee jerk reactions. No. Stop minimizing their abuse.
- hananova 22d ago
  You simply do not say something like “we don’t record continuously” if the reality is that you only record when voice control or speech to text is active. Given the entire industry’s track record, the only sane thing to do when confronted with weasel wording is to assume the truth is the worst possible interpretation that isn’t a blatant lie, and even then, sometimes it is just a blatant lie. Here’s some examples: - We don’t record continuously -> We record nearly all the time, only stopping to upload the recording. - We do not sell your data -> But we do “share” it. - All your data is protected from unauthorized LLM scraping -> But we define all the big tech companies as authorized scraping.

isodev 22d ago

> The majority of the problem is also simply the ability to record. Exactly, and recent announcements like Apple normalising always on recording, even wrapped in “big promises” on privacy, deserve a lot more attention and strong regulation.

isp 22d ago

Yes. Another example: > If no wake word is detected, the audio is processed locally, promptly deleted, and is not transmitted to LG servers. This statement could still be true when: * The audio transmission is to non-LG servers (e.g., Alphonso). * The audio isn't transmitted, but the text transcription is.

beached_whale 22d ago
or a hash like other audio recognition techniques.