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Instagram's head says engagement falls by half without the algorithm
- hsuduebc2 23d ago>Children will be smoking less if you don't offer them cigarettes
- cynicalsecurity 23d agoBecause looking at pictures is the same as smoking cigarettes.
- hsuduebc2 23d agoBoth are proven to be addictive and harmful.
- dbbk 23d agoEveryone loves to hate the algorithm but this is obvious
- petterroea 23d agoFor a lot of people that's a good thing
- simonwsimonw 23d ago[dead]
- civvv 23d agoSame probably goes for slot machines if you strip them of all the bright, flashy colours and comforting sounds and make it a black metal box, with only a number display. Its almost like... it was inherently designed to be as addictive as possible?
- Zigurd 23d agoI hope the point is bigger than a nit to pick, but a plain slot machine is still bad. Social media used to be good or at least interesting in a good way. Maybe it can be again.
- dofm 23d agoOnly half? That's sort of depressing.
- jazzyb 23d agoIt's a good start.
- dofm 23d agoOn reflection I wonder if it doesn't drop more because it's a learned habit and it doesn't unlearn in the time of the study. However, I suspect the other complaint — that chronological feeds get overwhelmed by corporate spam — is fully true. It's one more regular reminder that none of these companies want to charge a couple of billion users a couple of dollars a month to give them exactly what they are asking for — a way to keep in contact with friends and meet new ones — because that's just not enough revenue for them, even if they charge for optional features. We're all worth so much more to them if we are addicted.
- blitzar 23d agoWill fry all the brains of humanity for double the engagement (and a promotion to L5). Doesn't sound worth it to me.
- Tangurena2 23d agoSo this is the result of "move fast and break things (humans in this case)".
- Zigurd 23d agoIt can be good in the way that meals with green vegetables aren't consumed as voraciously as cheeseburgers and fries. It depends on the quality of what's in the feed.
- deleted 23d ago[deleted]
- chinathrow 23d agoCry me a river, seriously.
- sakisv 23d agocue the smallest sad violin Snarky reaction aside, and actually reading the article, it says that the problem is something along the lines of "we incentivized and rewarded business accounts to post large volumes, so now if you switch to chronological order you will see more of these posts which reduces user satisfaction". Well, that just means that the company will have to adapt before their users start unfollowing spammy accounts and the whole "influencer" business takes a hit. Though tbh, not sure how much of a hit it could take but hey, when instagram says engagement falls, I allow myself to feel optimistic for a brief moment.
- pluc 23d agoMonetization is down when content isn't force-fed to users. Give this guy a raise.
- Towaway69 23d agoNobel prize for economics perhaps?
- danw1979 23d agoGood stuff ! When’s it going to prod ?
- embedding-shape 23d agoI think the single best change Instagram done in a decade is the "ad break" that happens once you've scrolled through enough posts, which stops you for N seconds to stare at some random ad. I think I can scroll through 2-3 posts before my scrolling gets locked, and I close the app, and now I barely scroll Instagram at all anymore. Thank you Instagram!
- voidUpdate 23d agoWhen did that start for you? I've never seen that myself, I can keep scrolling as long as I want
- embedding-shape 23d agoHmm, I think sometime in spring maybe. My wife tells me the same thing, she doesn't see those breaks. Not sure, I've had my Instagram account since 2010 I think, maybe like a reverse-grandfathering or just long-running A/B test? I opened Instagram and scrolled now just to reproduce it again, and I saw one "normal" post before this "ad break" appeared for me: https://i.imgur.com/SS6kuKV.png https://i.imgur.com/SS6kuKV.png
- izacus 23d agoThose ad breaks only appear if you opt out of personalized tracking. They're a punishment for you because you won't let them collect data. FB app does that too.
- embedding-shape 23d agoWell, in my case it seems like a win-win, less of a punishment and more of an extra feature I gained for making the right choice I guess. It's all the eyes of the beholder!
- izacus 23d agoYeah, same here, but that's the reason why others aren't seeing it :)
- coatmatter 23d agoBluesky likely knows this problem well. The pro is that I never find myself stuck there. The con is that I just end up somewhere else (including this orange website). Time to ctrl-w.
- Zigurd 23d agoAlthough Bluesky is tiny, they are the biggest and most stable proponent of letting users control their feed. Even if they don't grow big, being half the size of a toxic social media platform is a damn good business model. Somebody can win with that, and I hope a diverse group of startups try.
- roryirvine 23d agoThe question really is how to keep it in (or, at least, near) that sweet spot. People would love to go back to something like Facebook circa 2012 or the Twitter (or even Reddit) of maybe a couple of years later. But if you were to somehow manage to do that, how would you prevent them from turning into what they ended up becoming in the past decade? It seems to me that federation might have given us at least part of the answer, but only if there was some concrete reason to limit posts by default to being "local" (ie. unfederated) rather than global. Think of how FidoNet echoes tended to be limited to a specific net or region, or how IRC networks would inevitably split once they reached something like 100k users. Google+'s circles might have evolved into something like that, but ATproto seems to prioritise the "big world" rather than "small world" view. I guess commercial considerations make that inevitable but, personally, I think it's a pity that there's not some sort of technical limitation that would force a smaller horizon.
- esperent 23d agoIt's not like this website has some nefarious algorithm to keep you engaged. I also find myself here and keep bouncing off bluesky and I think it's just because I find the info and conversation here more interesting.
- dumberquestions 23d agoI don't know what the right balance is, but there should be some sort of friction. Feeds shouldn't be infinitely scrollable, for instance, and users could be made explicitly aware of how much time they're spending. Some people think this should all fall back on personal responsibility, but the way I see it, introducing highly addictive algorithms should've been regulated the same way adding addictive chemicals to food is.
- _ink_ 23d agoThey should tax Instagram for continuous scrolling. The longer one session gets the more it costs :D
- Towaway69 23d ago> Feeds shouldn't be infinitely scrollable Folks would just continue on page 2, like in the good old days! Pls take that with a pinch of salt. There is just so much that can be banned and infinite scroll isn’t one of those things. After all, what kind of nanny state do we want and after how much content does the scroll stop? The symptoms shouldn’t be addressed, the root cause of why folks feel they need to infinitely scroll through content that is probably providing them psychologically no benefits. Monkeys and colourful marbles comes to mind, although I’m sure the monkeys lose interest after a while.
- rcarr 23d agoThe middle ground is to mandate that there must be an option to toggle infinite scroll in the settings, preferably with it set off by default.
- brookst 23d agoTobacco exec says smoking falls by half with low-nicotine cigs.
- xtiansimon 23d agoNobody says bring back cocaine-cola because sales.
- dgrin91 23d agoProbably because there are strict laws outlawing cocaine sales, unlike nicotine
- Ccecil 23d agoBe ready for "Nico-Cola"
- red-iron-pine 23d agoi guarantee you there is an R&D attempt at this that failed to make it to market
- ASalazarMX 23d agoYou know it would happen if they could get away with it. It would start with a study about how cocaine microdosing prevents Alzheimer or heart attacks.
- eagerpace 23d ago"From today forward we will reduce our cigs nicotine by half!" 2 weeks later "We are please to announce the acquisition of triple nicotine packets that show incredible product innovation."
- mrkramer 23d agoBecause people are lazy, they feed on feed.
- hgoel 23d agoI don't get how instagram is as popular as it is. I made an account last week to try to look for pictures from an event I recently attended. First I was incredibly surprised and frustrated that their search functionality is effectively nonexistent, then, when I gave up and scrolled, if I tapped on a post to look closer, I had to deal with it interrupting whatever I was listening to. Then, cherry on top of the shit cake, they suspended my account unless I did some video ID process. Nope, not happening. Instagram felt like a more invasive and hostile user experience than any social media I've used before.
- hsuduebc2 23d agoEverytime I stumble upon search on ANY meta made platform I'm dazzled by how anyone can make simple search such a shit feature. Messanger search is ridiculously not working for ten years now.
- hackingonempty 23d ago> I don't get how instagram is as popular as it is. Stockholm syndrome.
- criddell 23d agoI think Instagram has gotten quite a bit worse over the past few years. I really only want to see posts from people I follow and they've made that more difficult. The service that totally baffles me is Tik Tok. I know it's supposed to learn what you like, but it has never really surfaced anything of interest to me. It might even be worse than YouTube for me. My ideal Instagram algorithm would be to show me only the people I follow, in chronological order. Then show me a marker that I'm at the end of my feed and at that point they can offer me their feed.
- busymom0 23d ago> My ideal Instagram algorithm would be to show me only the people I follow, in chronological order. Then show me a marker that I'm at the end of my feed and at that point they can offer me their feed. I am working on a new social media. I am curious about this point. How would you discover new people to follow initially? And, is a separate explore page of people you don't follow okay?
- croes 23d ago> Users miss more content and spend less time on the platform. And what is the effect of this on the user? Oh right, you don't care. For me this guy is directly repsonsible of all the negative side effects of this attention grabbing engangement BS and he should go to jail for that.
- hsuduebc2 23d agoThis is simply 21. century Tabbaco industry with all it had. The glamour, controversy and now the fall.
- esperent 23d agoThat's great, does he have any other good news to share with us?
- HNUsesLLMs 23d agoSame with HN and its LLM powered comments script they run internally
- Aboutplants 23d agoYeah, we know! That’s the problem!
- sanex 23d agoGood
- vrganj 23d agoThat's the point. Engagement ~= addiction. Just a more euphemistic framing.
- GrinningFool 23d ago"The brands and publishers’ point is the stronger half, and it deserves engaging with. " Just one example. It's odd to me that people are willing to put their own byline on obvious slop.
- ragebol 23d agoGood!
- VCFundedGenYer 23d agoThey don't know that. You can't currently turn off the algorithm in Instagram. This person is talking nonsense.
- 4ndrewl 23d ago"Mosseri is not arguing that a chronological feed harms users. He is arguing that it produces less engagement and less time on the platform." Seems like a great outcome, right?
- Zigurd 23d agoTheir lack of self-awareness is striking. Very often an insurgent would love to make half the revenue of the incumbent. He's not pointing out a problem with improving social media, he's pointing out the problem of being the incumbent that's dependent on toxic ingredients to their product.
- swiftcoder 23d ago> engagement falls by half without the algorithm Good? I honestly only have these apps to see what my friends posted. I know they aren't likely to do it, but it would be lovely to have the friends-only view back by default in every meta app
- alpineman 23d ago>> If you go to a chronological feed, it ends up getting overwhelmed with content from companies, brands, and publishers Not if you unsubscribe from companies, brands, and publishers. You're welcome.
- atq2119 23d agoThat's a feel good response, but there are also individuals who post a bit too much, but still fairly interesting stuff. A middle ground would be to have a "reduced follow" mode where you still have a chronological timeline, except that at most N posts per day are shown from "reduced followees". The filtering can still be based on a popularity signal.
- alpineman 21d agoAgreed! Reduced follow mode and the publisher needs to decide which 3 posts a day are marked 'priority'. If < 3 posts, then all are 'priority'.
- nottorp 23d agoGood?
- lrvick 23d agoA great start and a major win for humanity. Halfway there!
- Towaway69 23d agoWhat’s the other half? ;)
- scientifik 23d agoPlenty of comments here saying what we're all thinking, so I THINK this is an appropriate thread to share my app which specifically removes the ads and algorithm and only shows posts from the profiles you follow. https://narro.info https://narro.info
- koe123 23d agoI have often argued for it on here, but I want eg the EU to ban these kinds of recommender algorithm's. It’s all about weaponizing your nervous system against you just to show ads. If we ban it tomorrow society literally becomes better not worse. Why do American big tech companies have the “right” to cook our brains? It affects our politics, our relationships, etc
- billypilgrim 23d agoI honestly do not understand why we let it continue when we have been seeing the drastic negative effects for years now. The recommendation algorithm and the data it relies on must be opened up to to some kind of elected agency, and they need to be vetted for negative health effects just as we do now with drugs. Any algorithm that is addictive enough to keep users mindlessly scrolling for hours needs adjustment or needs to be banned. This would put a stop to infinite scrolling. Give the user more agency in deciding if they want to continue or stop there. We should no longer allow for-profit companies to hijack our attention for long periods and abuse our brains need for digital sugar.
- koe123 23d agoThe idea of the free market always boils down to: no regulation until we decide otherwise.
- Hizonner 23d agoIs that supposed to be bad?
- smusamashah 23d agoI have started to like the algorithms. What I do want is an option to switch to plain old feed which twitter now offers. Only problem with algorithm is that it is prone to occasional slips where you open a random cat video (or any other bait) and your recommendations start showing that more often, you keep clicking those and before you know it your recommended feed is full of that. But if you know how to tame the algorithm for only the content you are interested in, it is amazing. I like my twitter, youtube and insta recommendations and have discovered many new creators who I wouldn't have otherwise.
- garciasn 23d ago> I have started to like the algorithms. Unlikely; your brain has been trained to enjoy it because it's a psychological hit inherent with the way the app + algorithm work together to be addictive and keep you 'engaged' instead of doing something else altogether. Engagement dropping is bad for a corporations ad revenue -> shareholders; it's great for individuals and their physical and mental wellbeing.
- smusamashah 23d agoThis can be true as well because I have been spending lot more time on twitter etc as well.
- baud147258 23d ago> plain old feed which twitter now offers I'm pretty sure I've only had a plain (chronological) feed since I started using Twitter a few years ago... There's a few times I had to switch back/reenable it, but it's not new. Though I've always hated Twitter's algo so I would have stopped using the site if the chronological feed went missing.
- m4rtink 23d agoGood!
- zrn900 23d agoSo not having an algorithm cuts engagement by ONLY half? How can that not be a good thing? Just remove it and save all the headaches for your service, ranging from user addiction to regulatory pressure. Let people engage however much they want.
- lern_too_spel 23d agoAnd purchases fall by half if you put milk at the entrance of the grocery store. Nothing of value is lost by letting people go through less slop to get to what they want to see. This guy thinks feeds will be dominated by brands posting multiple times per day. People will unsubscribe from brands that post what they don't want to see. It's a self correcting problem.
- gchamonlive 23d agoJust charge double per view, there will be pressure for competition which is sorely needed in the ads business
- red-iron-pine 23d agogood. let it fall.
- regsthrow 23d agoGovernments should start taxing short form video. If the companies want to make money off of people's time and engagement, it is only fair that governments get a cut. I propose 2 cents per short video.
- deleted 23d ago[deleted]
- Grombobulous 23d agoThis shows us that Instagram still has a viable business without the algorithm. Falling by half sounds like a lot, but the glass-half-full read of that is that it means "Instagram would still be incredibly popular without its algorithm."
- networkOne 23d ago"Adam Mosseri has warned that users who switch off Instagram’s recommendation system end up with a worse experience, telling an Australian press briefing that engagement can fall by as much as 50% and that satisfaction scores fall off a cliff." - Well, isn't this just that we fear from technology... that the makers of their social media applications feel that their products are simply there to create our experiences? Well, I have news for you. Social media creates nothing. It lives by getting us to not act... to sit in a mind-numbing silent purgatory, voyeuristically watching the fictitious 3rd-person accounts of the subjective experience of others... as the synchronisation of our genetic inner core with the paths we take in the social realm becoming less and less harmonious... since because of social media we take less paths... since you know... we don't act. So if the addiction from the behavioural algorithms is all you have to engage with your users, why aren't you classed as drug suppliers?
- vrighter 20d agothat's the point, isn't it?