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Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation
- throw310822 2mo agoPure, shameless clickbait as usual from Smithsonian magazine. > Although there is no direct evidence that the adaptation is linked to expanded octopus brainpower, I.e. the entire connection between this mutation and octopus intelligence is made up. Not even a shred of justification.
- culi 2mo agoI mean it's a gene that helps them build a protein. It would be nearly impossible to say there's a "direct" link to that and intelligence. I think they are validly qualifying the article A lot of science journalism has, for better or worse, a mandate to increase public interest and excitement about science. If you want a dry and totally accurate account of the science you should read the paper directly. If you want your curiosity and imagination excited, articles and programs like these are great. Here's their proposed link later in the article: > The findings hint that the rRNA adaptation might be connected to the evolution of the shallow-water octopuses’ large nervous systems. Their brains—which are spread throughout their bodies—had to expand quickly as they learned to keep up with predators and increased competition in this environment. Nerve cells, or neurons, are long-lived, study co-author Rishav Mitra tells Scientific American’s Cody Cottier, which means protein misfolding is particularly bad for them. By preventing that, the rRNA break “might help these neurons to work well,” he adds. A conjecture like this probably has no place in a scientific article but absolutely has a place in pop sci magazines like Smithsonian
- Otterly99 2mo agoThat's a shame, because the study in itself is interesting and raises some questions, but the whole time I was wondering why protein translation accuracy would be related to intelligence? Turns out there is no evidence of link and that the title just speculates.
- jjk166 2mo agoCorrelation does not imply causation and it's not even clear this qualifies as correlation.
- jjtheblunt 2mo agowhat about it is not correlation, that you imply?
- jjk166 2mo agoThe default assumption is non-correlation. No firm evidence was presented demonstrating correlation. Hence "not even clear it qualifies as correlation." This is a one time event that happened sometime after incirrates and cirrates split. This is like claiming there is a correlation between the Carrington Event of 1859 and the outbreak of the US civil war in 1860. One happened before the other. One could plausibly construct some narrative that causally links the two. But does it qualify as correlation?
- jjtheblunt 2mo agoi understand correlation and causation (as a math person for decades) and the article talks of trying to establish correlation with experiments on e coli and introducing similar breaks. Inserting the same break in the ribosomes of Escherichia coli bacteria made the engineered cells produce proteins with about twice their usual accuracy. they then went looking at the divergence data between the various distantly related cephalopods and again said they again couldn't find a counterexample to the conjecture that the RNA break and higher intelligence are correlated, but not established causal, because both phenotype and genetics are individually correlated to the same timeframes. that doesn't mean they're correlated to each other, let alone causal, of course, in either direction.
- jjk166 2mo agoI'm referring to the link with intelligence. The e coli experiments has nothing to do with that. > that doesn't mean they're correlated to each other, let alone causal, of course, in either direction. Which was my point.
- BatFastard 2mo agoI found the article very interesting. Not click bait at all. I didn't realize that an octopuses brain was spread out all over its body.
- ortusdux 2mo agoNot only that, they have the highest ratio of brain-to-body-mass of any invertebrate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence
- hermitcrab 2mo agoYes, so maybe think twice before eating one.
- PowerElectronix 2mo agoThey're too delicious to consider how smart they are.
- testaccount28 2mo ago[flagged]
- unethical_ban 2mo agoI cannot judge too harshly, since I still eat many kinds of animal. However, I never ate octopus growing up, and I learned of their intelligence before I tried it more than a few times. It was easier to "never start" than to quit. And besides, octopus is not that great and if you insist on eating seafood I find pretty much any other item to have more enjoyable texture.
- slowin 2mo agoOctopus is the only animal I've ever stopped eating due to ethical concerns (not that I'm against examining my relationship with other animals). That being said, it's really delicious if you get it fresh. It just so happens that it's very rare (in the US) to get fresh octopus. I liked tako nigiri and grilled octopus, Mediterranean style. The taste and texture difference between fresh and not fresh is huge though. Probably another great reason not to eat them!
- fmjrey 2mo agoI would imagine their intelligence is directly proportional to the so many degrees of freedom the arms have for grasping, but don't ask which one came first, chicken or egg?
- pryce 2mo agothe history of how people have conceived of causality between human intelligence and human hands (and in which direction dependency may lie) is quite interesting. "It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals." —Anaxagoras, circa 450 BCE.
- slowin 2mo agoVery insightful given that hands do have massive over representation in our brains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus
- abeppu 2mo agoWhy should intelligence _other_ than motor-planning be tied to the degrees of freedom of their movement? - snakes have a high number of degrees of freedom but aren't especially bright - squid have 2 more limbs than octopuses and aren't as smart I think the shallow-water vs deep-water thing mentioned in the article is important; reef and similar environments give a lot more opportunities for smart camouflage, complex navigation, tool-use opportunities etc than the open ocean.
- teravor 2mo agomost likely the enormous control surfaces their biology acquired required distributed neuronal mass and once that mass existed further intelligence became advantageous because it was a minor change at that point (switches during embryology increasing neuron counts and other aspects).
- make3 2mo agowhy chicken or egg? it's way to imagine both evolving together in a mutually reinforcing relationship where the gains in one are direct incentives for the other to continue to evolve, etc
- yieldcrv 2mo agolets splice in a gene fix for cephalopod senescence and get the invasion over with
- Razengan 2mo agoI have this headcanon that an ancient ape civilization was at war with cephalopods and they created a weapon of mass destruction that artificially gimped octopus lifespans :'(
- yieldcrv 2mo agomutations that occur after reproduction are never weeded out since the genes are passed on already, so natural selection on its own can result in this, just like cancer or lower safeguards against cancer such as short telomeres in humans
- a_t48 2mo agoThis isn’t quite true, is it? A mutation that killed 5 years after childbirth would result in higher mortality rates for the child.
- FpUser 2mo agoIt is a pity they have such a short lifespan
- wahern 2mo agoIf they lived longer they might develop complex social structures, and then we might be in trouble.
- doodlebugging 2mo ago>If we “use nature as a guide to understand how that happens naturally,” she says, “then we can probably find ways to put it into human cells.” Oh boy! Please hurry up with this. I want brains in all my appendages so I can adapt in real time to all the environmental conditions that I am encountering moment to moment. Test it first though, maybe on a rat or a planarian. Your choice. EDIT: I know this is great research. Understanding how evolution has allowed other species to adapt to their environments and overcome conditions that would be dangerous helps us assemble the pieces of the puzzle of the origin of life. I just don't think that the first thing we should be considering when we find something that makes an organism unique is the question of how we can insert genetic change into the human genome. If humans had ever needed it the mutation would already be present through natural selection. If the end game is always to modify the human genome then there is no reason to do the research on other organisms. Set up the conditions with humans and run a few generations through. The ones who make it likely have some genetic difference that predisposes them to winning that part of life. No need to rush things. Do it once, do it right.
- randomImmigrant 2mo ago[dead]
- taf2 2mo agoReminds me of the children of time books - think it’s the second book with the octopus
- georgeecollins 2mo agoChildren of Ruin is about advanced Octopi, not as good as Children of Time, but interesting. That series or Fire Upon the Deep are really good for conceptualizing truly alien intelligence.
- jayGlow 2mo agothe mountain in the sea is also a good read. focuses specifically on ingredient octopus, I didn't enjoy it as much as children of time but still an interesting read.
- pash 2mo agoWhat does it mean to “produce proteins with about twice their usual accuracy”? Smaller feature size, essentially?
- treyd 2mo agoNo biological process is 100% precise. DNA copying being imperfect is the driver of evolution, which is the prime example of this. What I assume they're referring to is that their ribosomes just "make fewer mistakes" when creating proteins from mRNA. These "mistranslated proteins" are normally infrequent and benign, and their material is recycled eventually. But that whole process wastes energy, so making a "better ribosome" makes all cellular processes more energy efficient and allows the energy budget to be reallocated.
- reindeer2 2mo ago[flagged]
- piazz 2mo agoCan we CRISPR it into humans? I volunteer. I’ve always wanted to improve my protein folding accuracy.
- tclancy 2mo agoPlus your pants would fit like a glove.
- d_finch 2mo ago[dead]
- WorseIsBetter 2mo ago[dead]