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Interesting comment from last time this was posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48093670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48093670 Inkjet printing

Interesting comment from last time this was posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48093670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48093670 Inkjet printing requires orders of magnitude more engineering expertise, materials science, industry experience and financial resources than most people imagine. That is the reason, open inkjet printers don't exist despite having been consumer products with the same drawbacks for more than forty years. That is why this is a pre-crowdfund landing page without a demonstrating a working prototype. I would like to be wrong, but I expect you to be waiting a long time. An inkjet printer is not a collection of off the shelf parts. It is a machine that operates at the edge of chemistry, fluid dynamics, and electro-mechanical design...you have to place tiny tiny drops of liquid ink on commodity wood pulp with precision under arbitrary environmental conditions, get that ink to dry on the wood pulp, but not in tank or nozzel, while producing acceptable color, durability, and ease of use. Also lawyers...there are patents.

rubidium 3mo ago
99% of this is the printhead and the ink formulation. Assuming you use generic off the shelf solutions for those two components you’re set. All the printer companies do their lock in at the firmware and software layer.
- hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago
  Yeah, I found that original comment to be a bit nonsensical. It would be like arguing you can't build your own PC because the lithography tech needed to make modern ICs is really complicated. I wasn't planning a laying out my own chip, and these guys aren't planning on building their own printhead from scratch.
  - jnaina 3mo ago
    yes, I was about to build another gaming PC, and then I remembered the ASML machine costs 20 bajillion. Will wait for the ASML machine to come down in price, to around couple of grand.
    - bluGill 3mo ago
      You don't need ASML machines. There are labs all over that can build chips. I know of one near me that has a license to make the Pentium I chip (or possibly a similar chip - the exact chips classified, but I know can make the electronics for the Tomahawk missile thus ensuring that in case of war there is supply chain redundancy) - they need to get $30,000 each for them just to break even on labor costs since they don't have mass production. Which is to say you can make your gaming PC at home as a one-off if you want. Though personally I won't get near the toxic chemicals used.
  - imtringued 3mo ago
    There's also the long term strategy where if they can sell enough printers, they may at some point in the future do get the budget needed to make their own print head. It's not like printers were invented in 2026.
- dotancohen 3mo ago
  At the 2400 DPI that an HP printer can handle, the printer needs to place the head at 1/100 mm precision three times for every single dot on the page, and not smear them, despite not knowing what thickness or weight or finish the paper has. That is not trivial.
  - a96 3mo ago
    2400 dpi is not the bar for entry, though. Even 240 would qualify as a printer, albeit not a good one (SOTA in 1995 maybe).
    - dotancohen 3mo ago
      I respectfully disagree. For all the use cases shown on the linked page, a 240 DPI printer would not be acceptable.
      - a96 3mo ago
        Yes. There's the obvious difference of "it's a working printer" and desirable and useful product. You don't need to be state of the art to be in the first category was my thought.
drum55 3mo ago
That's why this is just using off the shelf cartridges with commercial heads.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- jboy55 3mo ago
  Which is why its more surprising this was first announced last year and there's no Proof of Concept demo yet? But really, I've given up on ink jet printers, and have gone the cheap B&W laser route for anything I need to print at home (In the past year, 2 times, a backup ticket and some paperwork that needed a real signature sent back). But when I had them, the thing that went bad 99.999% of the time was the cartridges or a clogged nozzle on the head. So the advantage here, on the repairability side not DRM, is the rails and motors? Also that cutter is going to be a pain, having worked on Lightjet printers, that cutter was nearly all field service issues until the FEs started leaving the "laser" key so lab managers could reset the blade themselves.
  - pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
    Re PoC, they have a YouTube video showing black and white printing and paper cutting on the Crowd Supply page, https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/progress-update-and-details-about-our-nomination-for-a-french-design-award https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/....
amenghra 3mo ago
An open source all-in-one-printer would be a great device to have. For eg I would love to have the scanner include a camera. So I can get “instant scans” most of the time, and a higher res scan when needed. Maybe the camera could also notice when the person making copies or scans forgot their original and ping them?
- sunshinesnacks 3mo ago
  The required super wide field of view for the camera could be tricky, without making the box really deep. Or am I not thinking about it right?
  - nerdsniper 3mo ago
    You'd probably need some basic custom lens (not crazy $$) that would distort the heck out of the image, but you could correct the shape in software. Given that GP wanted this to be the "low quality / high speed" secondary scanning option, the inevitable loss of quality would be acceptable. Seeing chromatic aberration on a document scan would be strange, but this is basically how many document scans are created today (using phone camera + software correction). It's just the lens effects from this cheap lens would be a lot worse than what Apple/Samsung/Google can do with their super expensive to design custom lens stacks.
    - KennyBlanken 3mo ago
      That's pointless when ADF scanners will do a dual-side scan, at around 2-3 seconds per page, and more importantly, can do so with a stack of pages. They've been around long enough that you can find them all over the place used for quite cheap and they likely only need a cleaning.
tjohns 3mo ago
On the technology side, I'm somewhat hopeful because it looks like they're using off-the-shelf HP ink cartridges for this. HP cartridges embed the printhead into the cartridge itself, and that printhead is arguably the most complicated part of the entire device. Outsource the printhead, and you're just designing a plotter with a PCL interface. I agree that the bigger challenge is going to be patents. It also wouldn't surprise me to see HP add DRM to cartridges to authenticate the printer itself if this catches on. (Possibly requiring a printer driver/firmware update.)
- pbronez 3mo ago
  I don’t see why HP would want to do that. They have huge margins on ink, right? I’m sure the increase in cartridge sales would offset lost subscription revenue from useless cloud services, if only because the people who are gonna use an open source printer would never pay for that anyway.
  - ldoughty 3mo ago
    Looks like the intended use case here is you buy the cartridge once, and refill it, and OpenPrinter won't lock you out after doing so like HP does.
    - labcomputer 3mo ago
      Yea, but then the print head clogs up after the second time you refill it and you buy another expensive print head + ink from HP. Frankly, I think 99% of the reason they started integrating the print head with the cartridge was to avoid all the problems you so frequently see on printers that don’t use disposable heads.
      - deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
  - taneq 3mo ago
    Yeah, if you’re buying the ink they would be happy, I’d think. The ideal razor-and-blades business model!
zczc 3mo ago
From the specs: Compatible cartridges HP 63 and HP 63 XL (US) HP 302 and HP 302 XL (Europe) HP 803 and HP 803 XL (Asia) So they just use HP inkjet technology. That makes it less open-source, but even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway.
- phoronixrly 3mo ago
  > even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway You're saying this as if it is a bad thing? I absolutely welcome this decision by the authors!
  - lima 3mo ago
    Non commercial licenses are not generally considered open source
    - worik 3mo ago
      Yes But how important?
      - __float 3mo ago
        If it is not an open source license, you should not call it open source. Imagine someone saying the same thing about MongoDB's license, for example.
        Sankozi 3mo ago
        Is there a Linux server run on fully open source hardware (what would that mean btw?)? Should we stop using "open source" because almost all computers are not fully open source?
        sehansen 3mo ago
        Quite a lot of open source hardware is licensed under the BY-SA Creative Commons license which is an actual open source license. E.g. the Arduinos and things like the Milkymist One which can actually run linux.
amelius 3mo ago
It really makes more sense to just buy a laser printer, in almost all cases.
- ocdtrekkie 3mo ago
  Yeah conceptually this excites me but I decided color printing wasn't worth it at home years ago and haven't regretted it.
  - taneq 3mo ago
    A colour laser A4 multifunction is only a few hundred bucks these days, five years ago I’d have agreed with you but it might be worth re-evaluating.
    - happymellon 3mo ago
      I've reevaluated. Still not worth it. My Brother is hitting 10 years now, and I'm trying to think of many scenarios where I really needed to print colour at home.
      - cromka 3mo ago
        I don't think this was a mono vs color argument but rather ink color vs laser color.
        imtringued 3mo ago
        If you go with a laser color printer you will have to buy four toners instead of one.
        happymellon 3mo ago
        Gggp post said they were just sticking with b+w laser, and gp post suggested a colour laser.
      - taneq 3mo ago
NooneAtAll3 3mo ago
isn't inkjet an outdated tech by now?
- loloquwowndueo 3mo ago
  How so?
  - NooneAtAll3 3mo ago
    laser printers are cheap and don't need catriges
    - d3Xt3r 3mo ago
      Color laser printers (MFPs with ADFs to be exact) aren't exactly cheap. Last I checked they were 2-3x more expensive than equivalent inkjets, and occupied a lot of space too.
      - NooneAtAll3 3mo ago
        > and occupied a lot of space too. all printers are the size of microwave. Inkjets aren't any smaller > MFPs with ADFs to be exact at that point you're talking about a full-on office appliance and far above DIY repair scale the discussion is about
        d3Xt3r 3mo ago
        My Brother inkjet with an ADF is smaller than a microwave and super cheap. Not something you'd ever see in a typical office. If I could buy a color laser printer with similar features, dimensions and price, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
    - loloquwowndueo 3mo ago
      How do laser printers not need cartridges? I own two, mind you.
- 3mo ago
infl8ed 3mo ago
I noticed that previous post is from a couple of months ago, and it looks like about a week ago they posted a project update and they claim for their current prototype: "We are successfully printing in both black and full color." https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/progress-update-and-details-about-our-nomination-for-a-french-design-award https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/... Of course I have no way of verifying either way. Still I do think the project looks quite interesting, I'm in the market for a printer and this is certainly the most interesting one I've seen in a while.
- Doxin 3mo ago
  There's a video of the prototype printing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM
WhyNotHugo 3mo ago
I have enormous respect for dot matrix printers. They're easy to repair and service, the tech is relatively simple, it's cheap, it's parts are cheap, its supplies are cheap. It's way more sustainable than any other printer: both the printer itself in its manufacturing and the ribbons themselves. The waste they produce is also much less polluting than any other printer.
- hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago
  They also kind of suck. I'm not one for "the latest and greatest", but their output quality is atrocious compared to modern printers, they're loud AF, and I'm guessing it may have existed but I never saw a dot matrix that didn't have the perforated edge for feeding.
  - taneq 3mo ago
    I think that’s a product of their time rather than the dot matrix tech itself. Paper feeding is hard. Tractor strips made it easier.
    - dragontamer 3mo ago
      Dot Matrix are still used in outdoor / high humidity environments in USA. A lot of car shops with regular 100% humidity conditions will swear by dot matrix + tractor for feeding paper + printing. Plus, the carbon copy forms are guaranteed to be exact carbon copies which also leads to legal guarantees about copies of paper being provably exactly the same in the court of law.
    - bitwize 3mo ago
      Pen plotters could accept sheets of A4 and very precisely position them since at least the 80s. I'm surprised that dot-matrix printers didn't adopt similar technologies sooner, though it could be because by the mid-80s dot-matrix printers were the budget option, fanfold paper with the tractor strips was still abundant, and it was much easier to just stick with the cheaply manufacturable technologies rather than take the risk of innovation with a product that wouldn't sell upmarket anyway.
poulpy123 3mo ago
The second part is verbose but say absolutely nothing of the difficulty and issues. It could be applied to anything, even cooking a steak
GuB-42 3mo ago
Try to find an typical consumer inkjet printer on AliExpress, you won't find any, or if you do, it will be someone reselling the usual brands like HP or Canon. You will find label printers, industrial printers, 3D printers, thermal printers, and all sorts of weird stuff, but none of them able to put ink on a stack of A4 paper. If the Chinese, who are known for being able to make knockoffs of everything are not able to make inkjet printers, this should tell you how hard it is. It addition to the print head, reliable paper transport is also really hard. That problem is often sidestepped by using a paper roll or by printing one sheet at a time, as it is the case for the Openprinter.
- ____tom____ 3mo ago
  No. Per Google, most HP printers are made in China. A more likely explanation has to do with the economics of ink jet printers. The ink sales are so profitable that HP and other manufacturers subsidize their printers. This leads to prices at or near cost. Since Ali express vendors can't count on follow on ink sales, they can't compete on price. And competing on price is Ali express's reason for existence. So, ink jet printer are harder to find on Ali express. At least, low end consumer focused ink jet printers. Laser printers, which aren't subsidized are common
- ValdikSS 3mo ago
  Several Chinese companies have their own domestic laser printers, claiming of in-house components and development (Cumtenn, ZoneWin), and one company does inkjet printers in addition to lasers (Deli Printer). https://www.delioa.com/products/a4-inkjet-printer/ https://www.delioa.com/products/a4-inkjet-printer/ ZoneWin, a laser printer company, made a clone of both HP LaserJet 1020 and LaserJet M1005, which reuse most of the original/compatible parts (Q2612A cartridge). They claim it's 100% domestic parts only. https://www.rtmworld.com/news/new-chinese-made-printer-uses-hp-cartridges/ https://www.rtmworld.com/news/new-chinese-made-printer-uses-...
alden5 3mo ago
The fact the campaign is run on crowdsupply makes me a lot more hopeful it'll get to market vs a site like kickstarter. Crowdsupply requires a working prototype before launching and they provide all the expertise to actually get projects to market, off the top of my head I don't believe any crowdsupply project has failed to deliver.
- skimmed_milk 3mo ago
  Eoma68 did, https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop I never got mine at least.
etdznots 3mo ago
Lol then 3D printing must be space technology that only the most advanced materials labs in the world can achieve, yeah inkjet is not simple, but it’s also not magic,
- Double_a_92 3mo ago
  The issue is mainly the nozzle. Ironically 3D printers are a lot easier there, since you just need to melt a thick wire, and not worry about microscopically small droplets.
abetusk 3mo ago
I certainly don't have deep knowledge in this area but my understanding is that the cartridge is basically a cavity with a small hole at the bottom and a piezo electric element at the top to sputter liquid down. The tolerances are tight but considering how advanced manufacturing is, I would imagine someone competent could design and prototype it with the tools and manufacturing ecosystem that's available now. There's at least one project that has tried to design an actual DIY/open-source inkjet printer [0], along with inkjet print heads [1]. The ink most likely need some special sauce? But I imagine there's many organizations that can specialize in making the ink so that it can be treated close to a commodity. If not, maybe this can also be engineered? [0] https://hackaday.io/project/167446-diy-inkjet-printer https://hackaday.io/project/167446-diy-inkjet-printer [1] https://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet https://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet
- dotancohen 3mo ago
  This printer uses HP 502 cartridges. Readily available, but don't expect to save on ink costs compared to a regular HP printer. They do claim that this printer will print in black when the colour cartridge is empty, which they imply is not possible with common printers. The only time I ever encountered that I simply removed the colour cartridge and the printer was happy to print in black.
ACCount37 3mo ago
The single hardest part is the print head. If you can reuse an existing one, and you can, then you're most of the way there. The paper path itself is mechanically involved, but not to an impossible degree - it's hard to make it work, but it's not MEMS magic, it's manufacturable in the same way advanced 3D printers are manufacturable.
- beAbU 3mo ago
  Yet it's the paper handler that constantly jams and the printhead is fine after alignment.
Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 3mo ago
I mean, there's a video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM&t=17s&pp=2AERkAIB https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM&t=17s&pp=2AERkAIB Sure it could be fraud but it could also just work.
londons_explore 3mo ago
Looks like this printer uses HP 85 ink cartridges, so the hardest bits of the engineering are being bought in from HP. The rest of a printer aren't too hard to design and make, especially if you don't have super tight budget constraints.
- pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
  Makes sense, presumably if the project is well enough supported then they can move on to cartridge/head production, or modify to use whatever heads are available. Out of ignorance, I wonder how IPR will work with interoperability rights. Patent rights seem like they might not be exhausted when you buy a spare part to use in third-party device, vs when you buy a spare part for an OEM device. I'm guessing all the tech here has aged out of patent protection though?
ZiiS 3mo ago
Generic inkjet cartridges (including the nozzles) and ink are readily available. The head movement and is easier then a 3d printer, the will be some learning's for the paper handling but seems very achievable to me.
bryanrasmussen 3mo ago
interesting that on the front page at this time is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48757900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48757900 "The Age of Personalized Hardware Is Coming", which, it seems that it may be, but not for inkjet printers?
- pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
  Is this not an example - they mention 3D printing of parts to customise for personal requirements? I like the wall mounted example with the output paper holder below. Neat.
  - bryanrasmussen 3mo ago
    yes but the parent commenter asserts that an open source inkjet will never happen which I take to mean that a customized inkjet is not happening either.
f1shy 3mo ago
Well, the same thinking was going on when Mr. Daniel Gelbart [0] started Creo. In all the videos I've seen from Gelbart, he always repeats that many things are being done wrong, he has some answers, but people keep copying bad design. Saying "no way you will succeed, is way too difficult! look how hard is it for HP" is absolute non-sense. Also, if the whole printing head is from HP, and they sell it for the price they do, I do not think is the most advanced science the mankind achieved. I would have such doubt maybe if somebody wants to compete with ASML. But Inkjet? really? such an old technology with all patents expired? [0] https://www.weizmann.ac.il/WeizmannCompass/sections/features/the-optimistic-inventor https://www.weizmann.ac.il/WeizmannCompass/sections/features...
jelder 3mo ago
Is laser printing more feasible? I've had the same Brother black & white laser for almost a decade and it's more than adequate for everything I do. If I ever need color, I send it off to a service that has much nicer printers than most people would ever want in their homes.
wuschel 3mo ago
I looked into hackable printers 10+ years ago when building a demonstrator prototype of a bioproduced ink dye. The key challenge challenges is that they are an integrated system between mechanical, electronical, and chemical (ink formulation, surface chemistry) domains. I would believe most relevant patents are now expired and that we should be able to build a printer that at least gives sufficient quality prints. Given sufficient motivation and time investment, that is.

rubidium 3mo ago

99% of this is the printhead and the ink formulation. Assuming you use generic off the shelf solutions for those two components you’re set. All the printer companies do their lock in at the firmware and software layer.

hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago
Yeah, I found that original comment to be a bit nonsensical. It would be like arguing you can't build your own PC because the lithography tech needed to make modern ICs is really complicated. I wasn't planning a laying out my own chip, and these guys aren't planning on building their own printhead from scratch.
- jnaina 3mo ago
  yes, I was about to build another gaming PC, and then I remembered the ASML machine costs 20 bajillion. Will wait for the ASML machine to come down in price, to around couple of grand.
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    You don't need ASML machines. There are labs all over that can build chips. I know of one near me that has a license to make the Pentium I chip (or possibly a similar chip - the exact chips classified, but I know can make the electronics for the Tomahawk missile thus ensuring that in case of war there is supply chain redundancy) - they need to get $30,000 each for them just to break even on labor costs since they don't have mass production. Which is to say you can make your gaming PC at home as a one-off if you want. Though personally I won't get near the toxic chemicals used.
- imtringued 3mo ago
  There's also the long term strategy where if they can sell enough printers, they may at some point in the future do get the budget needed to make their own print head. It's not like printers were invented in 2026.
dotancohen 3mo ago
At the 2400 DPI that an HP printer can handle, the printer needs to place the head at 1/100 mm precision three times for every single dot on the page, and not smear them, despite not knowing what thickness or weight or finish the paper has. That is not trivial.
- a96 3mo ago
  2400 dpi is not the bar for entry, though. Even 240 would qualify as a printer, albeit not a good one (SOTA in 1995 maybe).
  - dotancohen 3mo ago
    I respectfully disagree. For all the use cases shown on the linked page, a 240 DPI printer would not be acceptable.
    - a96 3mo ago
      Yes. There's the obvious difference of "it's a working printer" and desirable and useful product. You don't need to be state of the art to be in the first category was my thought.

drum55 3mo ago

That's why this is just using off the shelf cartridges with commercial heads.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
jboy55 3mo ago
Which is why its more surprising this was first announced last year and there's no Proof of Concept demo yet? But really, I've given up on ink jet printers, and have gone the cheap B&W laser route for anything I need to print at home (In the past year, 2 times, a backup ticket and some paperwork that needed a real signature sent back). But when I had them, the thing that went bad 99.999% of the time was the cartridges or a clogged nozzle on the head. So the advantage here, on the repairability side not DRM, is the rails and motors? Also that cutter is going to be a pain, having worked on Lightjet printers, that cutter was nearly all field service issues until the FEs started leaving the "laser" key so lab managers could reset the blade themselves.
- pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
  Re PoC, they have a YouTube video showing black and white printing and paper cutting on the Crowd Supply page, https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/progress-update-and-details-about-our-nomination-for-a-french-design-award https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/....

amenghra 3mo ago

An open source all-in-one-printer would be a great device to have. For eg I would love to have the scanner include a camera. So I can get “instant scans” most of the time, and a higher res scan when needed. Maybe the camera could also notice when the person making copies or scans forgot their original and ping them?

sunshinesnacks 3mo ago
The required super wide field of view for the camera could be tricky, without making the box really deep. Or am I not thinking about it right?
- nerdsniper 3mo ago
  You'd probably need some basic custom lens (not crazy $$) that would distort the heck out of the image, but you could correct the shape in software. Given that GP wanted this to be the "low quality / high speed" secondary scanning option, the inevitable loss of quality would be acceptable. Seeing chromatic aberration on a document scan would be strange, but this is basically how many document scans are created today (using phone camera + software correction). It's just the lens effects from this cheap lens would be a lot worse than what Apple/Samsung/Google can do with their super expensive to design custom lens stacks.
  - KennyBlanken 3mo ago
    That's pointless when ADF scanners will do a dual-side scan, at around 2-3 seconds per page, and more importantly, can do so with a stack of pages. They've been around long enough that you can find them all over the place used for quite cheap and they likely only need a cleaning.

tjohns 3mo ago

On the technology side, I'm somewhat hopeful because it looks like they're using off-the-shelf HP ink cartridges for this. HP cartridges embed the printhead into the cartridge itself, and that printhead is arguably the most complicated part of the entire device. Outsource the printhead, and you're just designing a plotter with a PCL interface. I agree that the bigger challenge is going to be patents. It also wouldn't surprise me to see HP add DRM to cartridges to authenticate the printer itself if this catches on. (Possibly requiring a printer driver/firmware update.)

pbronez 3mo ago
I don’t see why HP would want to do that. They have huge margins on ink, right? I’m sure the increase in cartridge sales would offset lost subscription revenue from useless cloud services, if only because the people who are gonna use an open source printer would never pay for that anyway.
- ldoughty 3mo ago
  Looks like the intended use case here is you buy the cartridge once, and refill it, and OpenPrinter won't lock you out after doing so like HP does.
  - labcomputer 3mo ago
    Yea, but then the print head clogs up after the second time you refill it and you buy another expensive print head + ink from HP. Frankly, I think 99% of the reason they started integrating the print head with the cartridge was to avoid all the problems you so frequently see on printers that don’t use disposable heads.
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
- taneq 3mo ago
  Yeah, if you’re buying the ink they would be happy, I’d think. The ideal razor-and-blades business model!

zczc 3mo ago

From the specs: Compatible cartridges HP 63 and HP 63 XL (US) HP 302 and HP 302 XL (Europe) HP 803 and HP 803 XL (Asia) So they just use HP inkjet technology. That makes it less open-source, but even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway.

phoronixrly 3mo ago
> even "open source" parts are going to be under non-commercial license (CC BY-NC-SA) anyway You're saying this as if it is a bad thing? I absolutely welcome this decision by the authors!
- lima 3mo ago
  Non commercial licenses are not generally considered open source
  - worik 3mo ago
    Yes But how important?
    - __float 3mo ago
      If it is not an open source license, you should not call it open source. Imagine someone saying the same thing about MongoDB's license, for example.
      - Sankozi 3mo ago
        Is there a Linux server run on fully open source hardware (what would that mean btw?)? Should we stop using "open source" because almost all computers are not fully open source?
        sehansen 3mo ago
        Quite a lot of open source hardware is licensed under the BY-SA Creative Commons license which is an actual open source license. E.g. the Arduinos and things like the Milkymist One which can actually run linux.

amelius 3mo ago

It really makes more sense to just buy a laser printer, in almost all cases.

ocdtrekkie 3mo ago
Yeah conceptually this excites me but I decided color printing wasn't worth it at home years ago and haven't regretted it.
- taneq 3mo ago
  A colour laser A4 multifunction is only a few hundred bucks these days, five years ago I’d have agreed with you but it might be worth re-evaluating.
  - happymellon 3mo ago
    I've reevaluated. Still not worth it. My Brother is hitting 10 years now, and I'm trying to think of many scenarios where I really needed to print colour at home.
    - cromka 3mo ago
      I don't think this was a mono vs color argument but rather ink color vs laser color.
      - imtringued 3mo ago
        If you go with a laser color printer you will have to buy four toners instead of one.
      - happymellon 3mo ago
        Gggp post said they were just sticking with b+w laser, and gp post suggested a colour laser.
    - taneq 3mo ago

NooneAtAll3 3mo ago

isn't inkjet an outdated tech by now?

loloquwowndueo 3mo ago
How so?
- NooneAtAll3 3mo ago
  laser printers are cheap and don't need catriges
  - d3Xt3r 3mo ago
    Color laser printers (MFPs with ADFs to be exact) aren't exactly cheap. Last I checked they were 2-3x more expensive than equivalent inkjets, and occupied a lot of space too.
    - NooneAtAll3 3mo ago
      > and occupied a lot of space too. all printers are the size of microwave. Inkjets aren't any smaller > MFPs with ADFs to be exact at that point you're talking about a full-on office appliance and far above DIY repair scale the discussion is about
      - d3Xt3r 3mo ago
        My Brother inkjet with an ADF is smaller than a microwave and super cheap. Not something you'd ever see in a typical office. If I could buy a color laser printer with similar features, dimensions and price, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
  - loloquwowndueo 3mo ago
    How do laser printers not need cartridges? I own two, mind you.
3mo ago

infl8ed 3mo ago

I noticed that previous post is from a couple of months ago, and it looks like about a week ago they posted a project update and they claim for their current prototype: "We are successfully printing in both black and full color." https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/progress-update-and-details-about-our-nomination-for-a-french-design-award https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer/updates/... Of course I have no way of verifying either way. Still I do think the project looks quite interesting, I'm in the market for a printer and this is certainly the most interesting one I've seen in a while.

Doxin 3mo ago
There's a video of the prototype printing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM

WhyNotHugo 3mo ago

I have enormous respect for dot matrix printers. They're easy to repair and service, the tech is relatively simple, it's cheap, it's parts are cheap, its supplies are cheap. It's way more sustainable than any other printer: both the printer itself in its manufacturing and the ribbons themselves. The waste they produce is also much less polluting than any other printer.

hn_throwaway_99 3mo ago
They also kind of suck. I'm not one for "the latest and greatest", but their output quality is atrocious compared to modern printers, they're loud AF, and I'm guessing it may have existed but I never saw a dot matrix that didn't have the perforated edge for feeding.
- taneq 3mo ago
  I think that’s a product of their time rather than the dot matrix tech itself. Paper feeding is hard. Tractor strips made it easier.
  - dragontamer 3mo ago
    Dot Matrix are still used in outdoor / high humidity environments in USA. A lot of car shops with regular 100% humidity conditions will swear by dot matrix + tractor for feeding paper + printing. Plus, the carbon copy forms are guaranteed to be exact carbon copies which also leads to legal guarantees about copies of paper being provably exactly the same in the court of law.
  - bitwize 3mo ago
    Pen plotters could accept sheets of A4 and very precisely position them since at least the 80s. I'm surprised that dot-matrix printers didn't adopt similar technologies sooner, though it could be because by the mid-80s dot-matrix printers were the budget option, fanfold paper with the tractor strips was still abundant, and it was much easier to just stick with the cheaply manufacturable technologies rather than take the risk of innovation with a product that wouldn't sell upmarket anyway.

poulpy123 3mo ago

The second part is verbose but say absolutely nothing of the difficulty and issues. It could be applied to anything, even cooking a steak

GuB-42 3mo ago

Try to find an typical consumer inkjet printer on AliExpress, you won't find any, or if you do, it will be someone reselling the usual brands like HP or Canon. You will find label printers, industrial printers, 3D printers, thermal printers, and all sorts of weird stuff, but none of them able to put ink on a stack of A4 paper. If the Chinese, who are known for being able to make knockoffs of everything are not able to make inkjet printers, this should tell you how hard it is. It addition to the print head, reliable paper transport is also really hard. That problem is often sidestepped by using a paper roll or by printing one sheet at a time, as it is the case for the Openprinter.

____tom____ 3mo ago
No. Per Google, most HP printers are made in China. A more likely explanation has to do with the economics of ink jet printers. The ink sales are so profitable that HP and other manufacturers subsidize their printers. This leads to prices at or near cost. Since Ali express vendors can't count on follow on ink sales, they can't compete on price. And competing on price is Ali express's reason for existence. So, ink jet printer are harder to find on Ali express. At least, low end consumer focused ink jet printers. Laser printers, which aren't subsidized are common
ValdikSS 3mo ago
Several Chinese companies have their own domestic laser printers, claiming of in-house components and development (Cumtenn, ZoneWin), and one company does inkjet printers in addition to lasers (Deli Printer). https://www.delioa.com/products/a4-inkjet-printer/ https://www.delioa.com/products/a4-inkjet-printer/ ZoneWin, a laser printer company, made a clone of both HP LaserJet 1020 and LaserJet M1005, which reuse most of the original/compatible parts (Q2612A cartridge). They claim it's 100% domestic parts only. https://www.rtmworld.com/news/new-chinese-made-printer-uses-hp-cartridges/ https://www.rtmworld.com/news/new-chinese-made-printer-uses-...

alden5 3mo ago

The fact the campaign is run on crowdsupply makes me a lot more hopeful it'll get to market vs a site like kickstarter. Crowdsupply requires a working prototype before launching and they provide all the expertise to actually get projects to market, off the top of my head I don't believe any crowdsupply project has failed to deliver.

skimmed_milk 3mo ago
Eoma68 did, https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop I never got mine at least.

etdznots 3mo ago

Lol then 3D printing must be space technology that only the most advanced materials labs in the world can achieve, yeah inkjet is not simple, but it’s also not magic,

Double_a_92 3mo ago
The issue is mainly the nozzle. Ironically 3D printers are a lot easier there, since you just need to melt a thick wire, and not worry about microscopically small droplets.

abetusk 3mo ago

I certainly don't have deep knowledge in this area but my understanding is that the cartridge is basically a cavity with a small hole at the bottom and a piezo electric element at the top to sputter liquid down. The tolerances are tight but considering how advanced manufacturing is, I would imagine someone competent could design and prototype it with the tools and manufacturing ecosystem that's available now. There's at least one project that has tried to design an actual DIY/open-source inkjet printer [0], along with inkjet print heads [1]. The ink most likely need some special sauce? But I imagine there's many organizations that can specialize in making the ink so that it can be treated close to a commodity. If not, maybe this can also be engineered? [0] https://hackaday.io/project/167446-diy-inkjet-printer https://hackaday.io/project/167446-diy-inkjet-printer [1] https://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet https://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet

dotancohen 3mo ago
This printer uses HP 502 cartridges. Readily available, but don't expect to save on ink costs compared to a regular HP printer. They do claim that this printer will print in black when the colour cartridge is empty, which they imply is not possible with common printers. The only time I ever encountered that I simply removed the colour cartridge and the printer was happy to print in black.

ACCount37 3mo ago

The single hardest part is the print head. If you can reuse an existing one, and you can, then you're most of the way there. The paper path itself is mechanically involved, but not to an impossible degree - it's hard to make it work, but it's not MEMS magic, it's manufacturable in the same way advanced 3D printers are manufacturable.

beAbU 3mo ago
Yet it's the paper handler that constantly jams and the printhead is fine after alignment.

Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 3mo ago

I mean, there's a video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM&t=17s&pp=2AERkAIB https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7iAFXCJQM&t=17s&pp=2AERkAIB Sure it could be fraud but it could also just work.

londons_explore 3mo ago

Looks like this printer uses HP 85 ink cartridges, so the hardest bits of the engineering are being bought in from HP. The rest of a printer aren't too hard to design and make, especially if you don't have super tight budget constraints.

pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
Makes sense, presumably if the project is well enough supported then they can move on to cartridge/head production, or modify to use whatever heads are available. Out of ignorance, I wonder how IPR will work with interoperability rights. Patent rights seem like they might not be exhausted when you buy a spare part to use in third-party device, vs when you buy a spare part for an OEM device. I'm guessing all the tech here has aged out of patent protection though?

ZiiS 3mo ago

Generic inkjet cartridges (including the nozzles) and ink are readily available. The head movement and is easier then a 3d printer, the will be some learning's for the paper handling but seems very achievable to me.

bryanrasmussen 3mo ago

interesting that on the front page at this time is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48757900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48757900 "The Age of Personalized Hardware Is Coming", which, it seems that it may be, but not for inkjet printers?

pbhjpbhj 3mo ago
Is this not an example - they mention 3D printing of parts to customise for personal requirements? I like the wall mounted example with the output paper holder below. Neat.
- bryanrasmussen 3mo ago
  yes but the parent commenter asserts that an open source inkjet will never happen which I take to mean that a customized inkjet is not happening either.

f1shy 3mo ago

Well, the same thinking was going on when Mr. Daniel Gelbart [0] started Creo. In all the videos I've seen from Gelbart, he always repeats that many things are being done wrong, he has some answers, but people keep copying bad design. Saying "no way you will succeed, is way too difficult! look how hard is it for HP" is absolute non-sense. Also, if the whole printing head is from HP, and they sell it for the price they do, I do not think is the most advanced science the mankind achieved. I would have such doubt maybe if somebody wants to compete with ASML. But Inkjet? really? such an old technology with all patents expired? [0] https://www.weizmann.ac.il/WeizmannCompass/sections/features/the-optimistic-inventor https://www.weizmann.ac.il/WeizmannCompass/sections/features...

jelder 3mo ago

Is laser printing more feasible? I've had the same Brother black & white laser for almost a decade and it's more than adequate for everything I do. If I ever need color, I send it off to a service that has much nicer printers than most people would ever want in their homes.

wuschel 3mo ago

I looked into hackable printers 10+ years ago when building a demonstrator prototype of a bioproduced ink dye. The key challenge challenges is that they are an integrated system between mechanical, electronical, and chemical (ink formulation, surface chemistry) domains. I would believe most relevant patents are now expired and that we should be able to build a printer that at least gives sufficient quality prints. Given sufficient motivation and time investment, that is.