10 ms·

The law doesn't ban them. It classifies fast e-bikes as motorcycles (which require registration, insurance, and a motorcycle endorsement).[1] This seems reasona

by ggreer 4mo ago

The law doesn't ban them. It classifies fast e-bikes as motorcycles (which require registration, insurance, and a motorcycle endorsement).[1] This seems reasonable to me. The previous laws for e-bikes were based on outdated assumptions about battery & motor technology. I do think it would make more sense to simplify (and future-proof) the law to just say, "If it can go >30mph on level ground and has a motor, it's a motorcycle." But similar to code, it's easier to add legislation than it is to modify existing rules. 1. https://apps.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=6110&Year=2025 https://apps.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=6110&Year=202... text: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2025-26/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/Senate/6110-S.SL.pdf https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2025-26/Pdf/Bills/Se...

TulliusCicero 4mo ago
True, it's not exactly the same situation, but it does ban them for the riders (the teens) who were previously on them. You could make it more analogous by saying that we could enforce stricter regulations on big SUVs and trucks in terms of, say, driver licensing, and you'd still have a huge outcry if we tried that.
- mothballed 4mo ago
  It blew my mind the first time I rented a 35' long 26,000 GVWR diesel truck and drove it right onto the interstate. What you can accomplish on a simple US driving license is something special you can't get almost anywhere else in the world unless you count places where bribes work. The EU cuts you off at like 8,000 lbs.
  - KetoManx64 4mo ago
    Gotta love regulation stifling the living daylights our of your society.
    - mschuster91 4mo ago
      Or: Gotta love regulation keeping our societies alive. The US averages 14.9/100k traffic fatalities, Europe 6.7 [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
      - Scoundreller 4mo ago
        Canada beats the euro average at 4.7 but similarly allows regular Joe’s to drive a moving truck and trailer a car behind it with a general license. + Canada’s rates are better on a per km basis (even beating the Dutch). Annual/biannual safety inspections are only required in 3 of 10 provinces and those 3 are on the smaller side (PEI, NS and NB). Motor vehicle infraction enforcement is… an afterthought for Canadian police (they don’t think/care that their salary/town depends on it). But admittedly, even lighter than I’ve experienced in Europe. It’s gotta be some other factor behind excess US road fatalities.
        KetoManx64 4mo ago
        [flagged]
        AlotOfReading 4mo ago
        If you think Canada of all places doesn't have immigrants driving around, boy do I have news for you.
        orthecreedence 4mo ago
        Yes! The migrants fleeing to the US with nothing but the shirt on their back and tens of thousands of dollars in their pocket so they can buy an F350 Superduty and run over kids with it.
        mothballed 4mo ago
        They're not buying the commercial tractor-trailers they're just operating them with CDLs California issued to them without even having enough basic English knowledge to read road signs, with predictable results. Of course this is partially a problem of the government creating the problem of disqualifying Californians who could perform the job. Like 40% of California smokes weed but recreational use disqualifies you from a DOT physical for interstate CDL driving eligibility, and probably medical too though for not much longer since it's now schedule III and the DOT just hasn't caught up with the rescheduling yet.
  - TulliusCicero 4mo ago
    And you can literally fall asleep at the wheel and get away with a $300 fine: https://komonews.com/news/local/sleeping-tesla-driver-speeding-ticket-autopilot-tesla-car-highway-washington-state-patrol-i5-traffic https://komonews.com/news/local/sleeping-tesla-driver-speedi...
cogman10 4mo ago
Those sorts of codes do exist already. The problem is that bike manufacturers will put on a "go fast" switch with a "Don't flip this or you'll be breaking the law" note in the manual. Of course, a lot of people flip that switch because 20mph can feel pretty slow.
- verytrivial 4mo ago
  The Dutch seem to just do the sensible thing and have mobile e-bike dynos. If they suspect the bike is not properly regulated, they'll test it and keep it if it fails.
  - bryanlarsen 4mo ago
    AFAICT, lots of people in the Netherlands also complain about kids on fat tire ebikes that look like motorcycles. OTOH people in 80's complained about kids on BMX bikes terrorizing the neighborhood, and those things were slow.
baron816 4mo ago
Well, probably the right thing to do for large trucks and suvs is to reclassify them so that you need a commercial license to drive them.
- tinfoilhatter 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ajuc 4mo ago
    What's more comfortable about SUV or a truck than a minivan or combi? How is a tall hood increasing your family comfort? It only increases your ego.
    - tinfoilhatter 4mo ago
      Plenty of minivans also have tall hoods. I assume by combi you're talking about a station wagon, and in that case you're trading cargo capacity and the ability to tow boats / trailers / campers / etc... Ego has nothing to do with it - utility does. You can fit more people and things in a larger vehicle, this isn't rocket science.
      - bryanlarsen 4mo ago
        Which ones? Caravan's, Sienna's, etc all have significantly lower hood heights than a typical 3 row SUV. They all have sloping hoods. A sloping hood increases visibility and reduces air resistance. Why does a Kenworth have a sloping hood but F-150's and SUV's don't?
      - mikepurvis 4mo ago
        I don't think the cargo capacity argument really holds water. I drive a Volvo V60 wagon which has trunk space of 23.2 cubic feet. When it was in the shop, I had a loaner XC60, and I could noticeably feel that the trunk space was about the same, despite the vehicle sitting considerably taller. Sure enough, the XC60 crossover has a trunk space of 22.4 cubic feet. It's the same trunk, just higher off the ground, which to me makes it less useful to me: more lifting to get stuff in, harder to rummage through items (eg camping pantry), much more difficult to access my roof box.
jorvi 4mo ago
You do realize e-bikes only go 25 km/h? You're confusing them with speed pedelecs. Those go around 50 km/h, although that's still a far cry from scooter speeds, let alone motorbikes.
- Pingk 4mo ago
  In some European countries, yes, but other countries like the US have different laws. The UK doesn't have a classification for a speed pedelec, just the 25kph class.
- bee_rider 4mo ago
  Are these categories very widely recognized in the e-bike community or in legislation? I’ve never heard of a pedelec (but I’m not well informed).
  - complex_pi 4mo ago
    Where I live (western EU) it's simple. If the speed is limited to 25 km/h it's an e-bike. Above it's a speed pedelec and requires registration plate + insurance.
    - ninalanyon 4mo ago
      In Norway e-scooters don't require registration plates but do require liability insurance. It's less than 100 NOK per month (~10 EUR).
    - gambiting 4mo ago
      Just to be clear - it's not the speed that is limited, it's the assistance that is. You can still pedal above 25km/h on your ebike just fine and it's legal, but it has to stop giving you assistance above it(in contrast to say, mopeds, which have to be speed limited to 45kph).
    - kube-system 4mo ago
      Most US states allow 28 mph e-bikes. Some limit it to 20 mph. E-bike laws -- like all traffic laws in the US -- are set by the states. (as you may notice, even our cars do not have "united states" license plates)
bootlooped 4mo ago
I think it does ban them, effectively. There is what some people say is a gray zone (I don't actually think it's that gray) where a device is too fast or powerful to be a legal e-bike, but also doesn't meet the requirements to be a road legal motorcycle. Will Progressive give me motorcycle insurance on my DIY e-bike without a VIN? Will the DVM register it? I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes. I don't think that's necessarily a problem that needs solved. I'm fine telling the person that bought a Sur-Ron, "too bad, off road only".
- sarchertech 4mo ago
  People get VINs and insurance for DIY vehicles all the time. There are companies that specialize in custom vehicle insurance.
- Aurornis 4mo ago
  > I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes. Not true. It's common to convert dirt bikes into street legal vehicles with conversion kits that add the required pieces. Depending on the state, that means turn signals, a mirror, headlight, and tail light. I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use only until they add the same equipment we require every other street legal vehicle to have. I also think it's reasonable if we tell them their electric motorcycle doesn't belong on the bike path.
  - mothballed 4mo ago
    >I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use If only that were actually the law. My roads are 100% private with absolutely zero tax payer funding yet the dumbass registration laws and requirement to display a plate even apply on my private road (only exempt if the owner white-lists traffic, which cannot be done under my easement rules which at best would only might allow me to black-list abusers). In fact pretty much all the roads in my town are completely privately funded and privately owned yet you still need registration/plate along with the legal mumbo jumbo to obtain it. Pretty soon you realize the laws have nothing to do with the fiction of the laws being there to protect the public roads or public land or taxpayer funding or some such, it's a sham pretense that falls apart upon inspection of how they work.
throw0101d 4mo ago
> The law doesn't ban them. It classifies […] The Shifter cycling channel recently polled viewers and came out with a pretty good classification system: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z35F2R7FeE&t=17m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z35F2R7FeE&t=17m20s "E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles. Of course enforcement is key: importing, selling, on the road. Also worth noting that in some places in the EU a automobile Category B also gives you Category AM allowances: > In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence#Since_2013_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence#Since...
- consp 4mo ago
  Most of the AM allowance is grandfathered in if you had an A or B license, some still combine them though. For some countries (like mine), while AM has those maxima, but the only vehicles allowed in the AM category are low power mopeds (sub 45kph). So it's arranged via vehicle allowance, not drivers license requirements. Any ebike with a throttle would fall under that category.
- to11mtm 4mo ago
  > "E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles. I'm going to respond to this pragmatically. Realistically, the current Class 1/2/3 system more or less works. Class 1 is pedal only, max 20MPH (but lots of bikes are sold as class 1 with lower limits, I think the one I got for my chosen sister is 10, maybe 15 tops.). Class 2 is Pedal+Throttle, max 20MPH. Again, sometimes the manufacturers will have a lower cap (Wife's e-bike has a throttle cap between 12-15.) But 7KPH is too little, at least for the US if you want to get more than low rate adoption of E-bikes as a mode of transportation [0]. At bare minimum you need something where the person can maintain balance and it's faster than a brisk walk. Class 3 is, well I thought it was Pedal-only 28MPH but I think there's some conflicting data and hand-waving. i.e. some claim that Class 3 is 'throttle up to 20MPH, pedal assist up to 28MPH' but last I was aware a Class 3 shouldn't have a throttle. But again, the confounding factor [0] means that some compromises may have to be made. The worst part about all of this, is everything was more or less OK, until these e-motos and overpowered e-bikes went on the market, and parents bought them for kids without any thought of risk/etc or even paying attention to the 'offroad use only' disclaimers. I also put it that way because (sadly) if it was just adults getting splattered it would probably just get treated like any other motorcycle/cycling accident as far as actual action. [0] - As a confounding factor, I'll give the example that in my state, an electric scooter qualifies as an 'electric skateboard' and thus so long as it has a throttle cap of under 25MPH, sure, go nuts unless there's a restriction via muni (e.x. some munis may ban use on roads with a speed limit over X mph) or DOT (e.x. public highway restrictions.)
ajuc 4mo ago
Id we wanted to do sth similar for SUVs and Trucks it would be a special driving licence required, with additional requirements and more expansive insurance.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
cucumber3732842 4mo ago
Back in the 20th century, before electric bikes, when I was but a wee lad the neighborhood Karens screeched until the local PD dropped one of those mobile "your speed is" trailers onto my street for about a month. It turns out 12yo me could go 29mph on a mountain bike. 30 is too low IMO. Make it 35 or something. 25 is a joke.
- ggreer 4mo ago
  I picked 30mph because that's the current threshold for what is considered a motorcycle in the state of Washington. Until recently, e-bikes were exempt from this because the old law was made back when e-bikes were rare and couldn't go much faster than regular bicycles. I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike. That's why I said, "and has a motor". Heck, a fast runner can endanger people on the sidewalk. When I'm running, I often slow down in crowded areas so that if someone does randomly veer into my path, I'll have time to avoid them. If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need.
  - cucumber3732842 4mo ago
    > that's the current threshold The current threshold is dumb. The whole premise is dumb. Ebikes don't need legislating beyond enforcing existing laws about cycling on sidewalks and the like. >I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike. It's also pretty clear that the geometry of the vehicle was not really optimized for such speeds. I don't think anyone going 30+ (commuting, the spandex crowd who rides for fun is a different story) thinks it's ok to be doing that around pedestrians or anything else sketchy. Most of the problems seem to simply be correlation to accessibility of speed to problem demographics, teenagers and the like. You'll have that problem regardless of form factor. 70yr ago the boomers were drunk crashing muscle cars because those were accessible. >If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need. Depends wholly on other unrelated demographic factors IMO. What can these people do for the government vs what problems do you cause it is the primary driver of whether you get stomped or pandered to.
bastawhiz 4mo ago
Counterpoint: why am I able to buy a Ram 2500 and drive it without a CDL? I rented one recently to help a friend move some furniture and it's an unbelievably big vehicle. The example of the standard you suggest could equally apply to large motor vehicles: you need special training above and beyond the status quo for vehicles that meet a certain standard. To your own point, motor vehicle laws were largely written based on outdated assumptions about the size of trucks and SUVs.
- tayo42 4mo ago
  You can rent and drive a truck bigger then that at uhaul
  - bastawhiz 4mo ago
    Arguably you shouldn't be able to, at least without being qualified to drive it. Just because it's legal doesn't mean someone made the active choice for it to be legal.

by ggreer 4mo ago

TulliusCicero 4mo ago

True, it's not exactly the same situation, but it does ban them for the riders (the teens) who were previously on them. You could make it more analogous by saying that we could enforce stricter regulations on big SUVs and trucks in terms of, say, driver licensing, and you'd still have a huge outcry if we tried that.

mothballed 4mo ago
It blew my mind the first time I rented a 35' long 26,000 GVWR diesel truck and drove it right onto the interstate. What you can accomplish on a simple US driving license is something special you can't get almost anywhere else in the world unless you count places where bribes work. The EU cuts you off at like 8,000 lbs.
- KetoManx64 4mo ago
  Gotta love regulation stifling the living daylights our of your society.
  - mschuster91 4mo ago
    Or: Gotta love regulation keeping our societies alive. The US averages 14.9/100k traffic fatalities, Europe 6.7 [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
    - Scoundreller 4mo ago
      Canada beats the euro average at 4.7 but similarly allows regular Joe’s to drive a moving truck and trailer a car behind it with a general license. + Canada’s rates are better on a per km basis (even beating the Dutch). Annual/biannual safety inspections are only required in 3 of 10 provinces and those 3 are on the smaller side (PEI, NS and NB). Motor vehicle infraction enforcement is… an afterthought for Canadian police (they don’t think/care that their salary/town depends on it). But admittedly, even lighter than I’ve experienced in Europe. It’s gotta be some other factor behind excess US road fatalities.
      - KetoManx64 4mo ago
        [flagged]
        AlotOfReading 4mo ago
        If you think Canada of all places doesn't have immigrants driving around, boy do I have news for you.
        orthecreedence 4mo ago
        Yes! The migrants fleeing to the US with nothing but the shirt on their back and tens of thousands of dollars in their pocket so they can buy an F350 Superduty and run over kids with it.
        mothballed 4mo ago
        They're not buying the commercial tractor-trailers they're just operating them with CDLs California issued to them without even having enough basic English knowledge to read road signs, with predictable results. Of course this is partially a problem of the government creating the problem of disqualifying Californians who could perform the job. Like 40% of California smokes weed but recreational use disqualifies you from a DOT physical for interstate CDL driving eligibility, and probably medical too though for not much longer since it's now schedule III and the DOT just hasn't caught up with the rescheduling yet.
- TulliusCicero 4mo ago
  And you can literally fall asleep at the wheel and get away with a $300 fine: https://komonews.com/news/local/sleeping-tesla-driver-speeding-ticket-autopilot-tesla-car-highway-washington-state-patrol-i5-traffic https://komonews.com/news/local/sleeping-tesla-driver-speedi...

cogman10 4mo ago

Those sorts of codes do exist already. The problem is that bike manufacturers will put on a "go fast" switch with a "Don't flip this or you'll be breaking the law" note in the manual. Of course, a lot of people flip that switch because 20mph can feel pretty slow.

verytrivial 4mo ago
The Dutch seem to just do the sensible thing and have mobile e-bike dynos. If they suspect the bike is not properly regulated, they'll test it and keep it if it fails.
- bryanlarsen 4mo ago
  AFAICT, lots of people in the Netherlands also complain about kids on fat tire ebikes that look like motorcycles. OTOH people in 80's complained about kids on BMX bikes terrorizing the neighborhood, and those things were slow.

baron816 4mo ago

Well, probably the right thing to do for large trucks and suvs is to reclassify them so that you need a commercial license to drive them.

tinfoilhatter 4mo ago
[flagged]
- ajuc 4mo ago
  What's more comfortable about SUV or a truck than a minivan or combi? How is a tall hood increasing your family comfort? It only increases your ego.
  - tinfoilhatter 4mo ago
    Plenty of minivans also have tall hoods. I assume by combi you're talking about a station wagon, and in that case you're trading cargo capacity and the ability to tow boats / trailers / campers / etc... Ego has nothing to do with it - utility does. You can fit more people and things in a larger vehicle, this isn't rocket science.
    - bryanlarsen 4mo ago
      Which ones? Caravan's, Sienna's, etc all have significantly lower hood heights than a typical 3 row SUV. They all have sloping hoods. A sloping hood increases visibility and reduces air resistance. Why does a Kenworth have a sloping hood but F-150's and SUV's don't?
    - mikepurvis 4mo ago
      I don't think the cargo capacity argument really holds water. I drive a Volvo V60 wagon which has trunk space of 23.2 cubic feet. When it was in the shop, I had a loaner XC60, and I could noticeably feel that the trunk space was about the same, despite the vehicle sitting considerably taller. Sure enough, the XC60 crossover has a trunk space of 22.4 cubic feet. It's the same trunk, just higher off the ground, which to me makes it less useful to me: more lifting to get stuff in, harder to rummage through items (eg camping pantry), much more difficult to access my roof box.

jorvi 4mo ago

You do realize e-bikes only go 25 km/h? You're confusing them with speed pedelecs. Those go around 50 km/h, although that's still a far cry from scooter speeds, let alone motorbikes.

Pingk 4mo ago
In some European countries, yes, but other countries like the US have different laws. The UK doesn't have a classification for a speed pedelec, just the 25kph class.
bee_rider 4mo ago
Are these categories very widely recognized in the e-bike community or in legislation? I’ve never heard of a pedelec (but I’m not well informed).
- complex_pi 4mo ago
  Where I live (western EU) it's simple. If the speed is limited to 25 km/h it's an e-bike. Above it's a speed pedelec and requires registration plate + insurance.
  - ninalanyon 4mo ago
    In Norway e-scooters don't require registration plates but do require liability insurance. It's less than 100 NOK per month (~10 EUR).
  - gambiting 4mo ago
    Just to be clear - it's not the speed that is limited, it's the assistance that is. You can still pedal above 25km/h on your ebike just fine and it's legal, but it has to stop giving you assistance above it(in contrast to say, mopeds, which have to be speed limited to 45kph).
  - kube-system 4mo ago
    Most US states allow 28 mph e-bikes. Some limit it to 20 mph. E-bike laws -- like all traffic laws in the US -- are set by the states. (as you may notice, even our cars do not have "united states" license plates)

bootlooped 4mo ago

I think it does ban them, effectively. There is what some people say is a gray zone (I don't actually think it's that gray) where a device is too fast or powerful to be a legal e-bike, but also doesn't meet the requirements to be a road legal motorcycle. Will Progressive give me motorcycle insurance on my DIY e-bike without a VIN? Will the DVM register it? I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes. I don't think that's necessarily a problem that needs solved. I'm fine telling the person that bought a Sur-Ron, "too bad, off road only".

sarchertech 4mo ago
People get VINs and insurance for DIY vehicles all the time. There are companies that specialize in custom vehicle insurance.
Aurornis 4mo ago
> I don't think so. In most states there is no path to legality, at least as far as operating the thing on public streets goes. Not true. It's common to convert dirt bikes into street legal vehicles with conversion kits that add the required pieces. Depending on the state, that means turn signals, a mirror, headlight, and tail light. I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use only until they add the same equipment we require every other street legal vehicle to have. I also think it's reasonable if we tell them their electric motorcycle doesn't belong on the bike path.
- mothballed 4mo ago
  >I think it's completely reasonable if we tell people that their Sur-Ron is for private property use If only that were actually the law. My roads are 100% private with absolutely zero tax payer funding yet the dumbass registration laws and requirement to display a plate even apply on my private road (only exempt if the owner white-lists traffic, which cannot be done under my easement rules which at best would only might allow me to black-list abusers). In fact pretty much all the roads in my town are completely privately funded and privately owned yet you still need registration/plate along with the legal mumbo jumbo to obtain it. Pretty soon you realize the laws have nothing to do with the fiction of the laws being there to protect the public roads or public land or taxpayer funding or some such, it's a sham pretense that falls apart upon inspection of how they work.

throw0101d 4mo ago

> The law doesn't ban them. It classifies […] The Shifter cycling channel recently polled viewers and came out with a pretty good classification system: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z35F2R7FeE&t=17m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z35F2R7FeE&t=17m20s "E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles. Of course enforcement is key: importing, selling, on the road. Also worth noting that in some places in the EU a automobile Category B also gives you Category AM allowances: > In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles <= 125 cubic centimetres (7.6 cu in) and power <= 11 kilowatts (15 hp) and ratio power/weight <= 0.1 kilowatts per kilogram (0.061 hp/lb) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence#Since_2013_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence#Since...

consp 4mo ago
Most of the AM allowance is grandfathered in if you had an A or B license, some still combine them though. For some countries (like mine), while AM has those maxima, but the only vehicles allowed in the AM category are low power mopeds (sub 45kph). So it's arranged via vehicle allowance, not drivers license requirements. Any ebike with a throttle would fall under that category.
to11mtm 4mo ago
> "E-bike" is pedal assist only/mostly with max speed of 30kph/20mph (only while pedalling) and throttle cuts out at low speeds (7kph: basically just there to get some inertial); treated as just another bicycle (perhaps limit age to ≥14 yo). Everything else is an "e-moto" with the same rules as mopeds and motorcycles. I'm going to respond to this pragmatically. Realistically, the current Class 1/2/3 system more or less works. Class 1 is pedal only, max 20MPH (but lots of bikes are sold as class 1 with lower limits, I think the one I got for my chosen sister is 10, maybe 15 tops.). Class 2 is Pedal+Throttle, max 20MPH. Again, sometimes the manufacturers will have a lower cap (Wife's e-bike has a throttle cap between 12-15.) But 7KPH is too little, at least for the US if you want to get more than low rate adoption of E-bikes as a mode of transportation [0]. At bare minimum you need something where the person can maintain balance and it's faster than a brisk walk. Class 3 is, well I thought it was Pedal-only 28MPH but I think there's some conflicting data and hand-waving. i.e. some claim that Class 3 is 'throttle up to 20MPH, pedal assist up to 28MPH' but last I was aware a Class 3 shouldn't have a throttle. But again, the confounding factor [0] means that some compromises may have to be made. The worst part about all of this, is everything was more or less OK, until these e-motos and overpowered e-bikes went on the market, and parents bought them for kids without any thought of risk/etc or even paying attention to the 'offroad use only' disclaimers. I also put it that way because (sadly) if it was just adults getting splattered it would probably just get treated like any other motorcycle/cycling accident as far as actual action. [0] - As a confounding factor, I'll give the example that in my state, an electric scooter qualifies as an 'electric skateboard' and thus so long as it has a throttle cap of under 25MPH, sure, go nuts unless there's a restriction via muni (e.x. some munis may ban use on roads with a speed limit over X mph) or DOT (e.x. public highway restrictions.)

ajuc 4mo ago

Id we wanted to do sth similar for SUVs and Trucks it would be a special driving licence required, with additional requirements and more expansive insurance.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

cucumber3732842 4mo ago

Back in the 20th century, before electric bikes, when I was but a wee lad the neighborhood Karens screeched until the local PD dropped one of those mobile "your speed is" trailers onto my street for about a month. It turns out 12yo me could go 29mph on a mountain bike. 30 is too low IMO. Make it 35 or something. 25 is a joke.

ggreer 4mo ago
I picked 30mph because that's the current threshold for what is considered a motorcycle in the state of Washington. Until recently, e-bikes were exempt from this because the old law was made back when e-bikes were rare and couldn't go much faster than regular bicycles. I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike. That's why I said, "and has a motor". Heck, a fast runner can endanger people on the sidewalk. When I'm running, I often slow down in crowded areas so that if someone does randomly veer into my path, I'll have time to avoid them. If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need.
- cucumber3732842 4mo ago
  > that's the current threshold The current threshold is dumb. The whole premise is dumb. Ebikes don't need legislating beyond enforcing existing laws about cycling on sidewalks and the like. >I've gone >50mph on a bicycle, 40mph on level ground. Yes it's possible, but it requires significant effort and you can't accelerate as quickly as an e-bike. It's also pretty clear that the geometry of the vehicle was not really optimized for such speeds. I don't think anyone going 30+ (commuting, the spandex crowd who rides for fun is a different story) thinks it's ok to be doing that around pedestrians or anything else sketchy. Most of the problems seem to simply be correlation to accessibility of speed to problem demographics, teenagers and the like. You'll have that problem regardless of form factor. 70yr ago the boomers were drunk crashing muscle cars because those were accessible. >If lots of people (who I assume are very fit) were riding bicycles dangerously, maybe the legislature would make some laws about that. But until it becomes a problem, there's really no need. Depends wholly on other unrelated demographic factors IMO. What can these people do for the government vs what problems do you cause it is the primary driver of whether you get stomped or pandered to.

bastawhiz 4mo ago

Counterpoint: why am I able to buy a Ram 2500 and drive it without a CDL? I rented one recently to help a friend move some furniture and it's an unbelievably big vehicle. The example of the standard you suggest could equally apply to large motor vehicles: you need special training above and beyond the status quo for vehicles that meet a certain standard. To your own point, motor vehicle laws were largely written based on outdated assumptions about the size of trucks and SUVs.

tayo42 4mo ago
You can rent and drive a truck bigger then that at uhaul
- bastawhiz 4mo ago
  Arguably you shouldn't be able to, at least without being qualified to drive it. Just because it's legal doesn't mean someone made the active choice for it to be legal.