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macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux
https://social.treehouse.systems/@AsahiLinux/116719749555082847 https://social.treehouse.systems/@AsahiLinux/116719749555082...
- grigio 4mo agoSadly both main ARM platforms (Apple silicon and Qualcomm) are a mine field for Linux
- WorldPeas 4mo agowhat about the ones from CIX like the orangepi or their framework mainboard? (though I agree, I miss UEFI for all its faults)
- grigio 4mo agoi hope, but i dubt that will be mass produced.. so no economy of scale
- officeplant 4mo agoThose are currently suffering from high power draw because they have to keep the cores awake for memory speeds. Lackluster performance as well, but thats the problem with the majority of the ARM ecosystem ever since apple started crafting SoCs.
- kjs3 4mo agoI must have missed something...what does Apple creating M-series have to do with Allwinner, Qualcom, Mediatek, AWS, and the rest of the ARM ecosystem having 'lackluster performance'?
- officeplant 4mo agoThey showed what ARM could pull off, and no one has caught up since at least on a single core performance level.
- kjs3 4mo agoAh...it's "they haven't matched Apple" (not even Graviton?), not "Apple impeded them in some way". Fair, but that was not clear.
- eqvinox 4mo agoYou do actually get UEFI on a few of these, though personally I've always fared better with U-Boot. (Sooner or later, I always run into something that is a simple edit in the device tree or uEnv, but UEFI doesn't expose.)
- KetoManx64 4mo agoOther than this situation, what other landmines are there? I have an M1 with Asahi Arch Linux that I've been using as my primary laptop for the last 8 months, its my favorite laptop by far out of the 5ish I have.
- jjtheblunt 4mo agoi run linux on both in arch and fedora versions with zero problems, by using the hypervisor framework of macos and wsl2 (wrapper for hyperv). do you need a more direct than hypervisor access to some hardware?
- officeplant 4mo agoA lot of us would prefer MS/Apple to never be within touching range of our hardware.
- dhosek 4mo agoOn the other hand, your “us” is not very big compared to your “not us.” I like Linux as a server OS (and would pick it over Windows or MacOS for that any day of the week that ends in y), but as a desktop OS it’s just more work than I care to exert (in fact, Windows also exceeds my tolerance for fiddliness in a desktop OS). My general preference is for “you don’t have to” over “you can” as much as possible which is the exact opposite of the Linux desktop experience.
- bigyabai 4mo agomacOS and Windows are both such a chore for development, though. WSL was the closest I got to an "it just works" dev environment, but it exposes just how bad native toolchains like Cygwin and git bash are. macOS is hardly any better, and once you manage to install all of the GNU utilities it just feels like a poorly-supported Linux distro. It's a bunch of wasted effort to imitate a fraction of Linux's power. So what are we supposed to use? ReactOS? SerenityOS? The entire mainstream is a "you have to..." OS, I fear the day when I have to abandon GNOME for a desktop that treats developers like chopped liver. Your general preference is fine, but I'm surprised that it aligns with the OEMs that want to put advertisements all over your desktop.
- nomel 4mo ago> it just feels like a poorly-supported Linux distro. That's because it's Unix, not Linux.
- ux266478 4mo agoPretty much all ARM platforms are. Even ARM devices designed from the ground up to be Linux devices are full of issues, like the MNT Pocket Reform's lack of HW suspend. The tight interop between vendor and implementation is a huge anti-pattern for software freedom, and the standardization initiatives like ARM SR are nowhere to be seen. It's probably the most problematic part of ARM being the future of personal computing, yet another impending manifestation of enshittification.
- pjmlp 4mo agoMost computers have been like that, FOSS got lucky that IBM failed to secure the PC for themselves, thus the PC clones. When folks say Intel and AMD are done, and we should all be on ARM, or RISC-V, beware of what to wish for. Yes there are device trees now, however someone has to keep them up to date, and that is only part of what makes a motherboard.
- MiddleEndian 4mo agoYeah the mainstream alternatives to x86 are all super locked down
- HerbManic 4mo agoI have said it for a while, Microsoft's business strategy was probably the best thing that ever happened to Free/Open software. They were ones pushing for more open systems so that they could sell DOS and Windows to other vendors. yes, it left the door open for others but they also figured they could push their software far harder than others could. I agree with the ARM/RISCV stance that we should be cautious with what we ask. I have seen some RiscV providers in China are starting to push for a BIOS compatible boot system which is great to see, but there is no guarantee that it will be adopted or it will last for long.
- lispwitch 4mo agoThis is also not guaranteed to be adopted widely, but the RISC-V Server Platform Specification was recently standardized with mandatory UEFI and ACPI support: https://github.com/riscv-non-isa/riscv-server-platform/releases/tag/v1.0 https://github.com/riscv-non-isa/riscv-server-platform/relea... I'd rather have OpenFirmware like enterprise POWER, but anything is better than static device trees.
- ChrisArchitect 4mo agoSource: https://social.treehouse.systems/@AsahiLinux/116719749555082847 https://social.treehouse.systems/@AsahiLinux/116719749555082...
- Teever 4mo agoI wish the EU would regulate this kind of stuff. A consumer shouldn't be restricted from installing their own OS on a device that they bought, be it a smartphone, tablet, laptop, desktop, or server. A company the size of Apple should also be required to release proper documentation that enables the porting of operating systems to these kinds of devices. The reverse engineering work that the Asahi team did is remarkable but so much of it is ultimately busy work that didn't need to be done if we regulated the consumer electronics market appropriately.
- hulitu 4mo ago> A consumer shouldn't be restricted from installing their own OS on a device that they bought That is not what the industry, that pays lobby money, wants. They want to be able to control what the user runs and extract profits.
- hnav 4mo agoThe EU is probably going to want tight control over users like any other government body. Bring your own software runs counter to that.
- carlosjobim 4mo agoThe EU is not some kind of god that will make others do your bidding if you pray enough to them. You've been misguided into following a false religion. For every niche thing you wish that Apple or other third parties do only for your own enjoyment, there are hundreds of millions of other people who want different niche things. Buy the products that suit your needs and wants, and companies have incentive to make them. And if no company wants to provide a feature or function that you know a huge portion of people will want, then you have a golden opportunity to start a business providing this.
- cromka 4mo ago> For every niche thing you wish that Apple or other third parties do only for your own enjoyment, there are hundreds of millions of other people who want different niche things. We're talking Apple publishing specs for their hardware. That's not some "niche, particular, random" feature each persons asks for. We're all asking the same thing. Same thing that IBM did and what made the PC and IT industry as we know it. > You've been misguided into following a false religion. You're being misguided by your patronizing attitude.
- GuestFAUniverse 4mo agomacOS 27 Golden Cage /s On the other hand I doubt that's intentional. Even as an avid Apple critic I want to mention that people I trust and are more involved with Asahi, always pointed out that Asahi received the occasional little help from Apple devs where possible (surely, not with official documentation, or confidential infos). So, I would wait until things had time to calm down and not get too invested with Apple bashing.
- vsgherzi 4mo agoIt seems like this is a bug, apple went through the trouble to allow something like asahi to be possible in the first place. I doubt they're purposely trying to break it.
- amelius 4mo ago(removed)
- wpm 4mo agoIf the happy path disappears, the not-so-happy path will be taken to allow for booting custom kernels, one that will likely rely on turning the some or a lot of the RE energy towards breaking the Secure Enclave, the bootloader, and so on. Apple practically laid the red carpet out to avoid people trying to crack the parts of the hardware/software chain-of-trust they would really rather not have cracked. A similar strategy helped keep the Xbox One un-pwned for over a decade (running homebrew was allowed in a specific mode). It is doubtful Apple's legal department isn't aware of the value of the current software strategy.
- CjHuber 4mo agoSo isn't that just purely security by obscurity then? Would they not rather have someone publicly break it instead of selling a zero day?
- wpm 4mo agoNothing is perfectly secure on its own. No system designed or checked by humans ever will be. After all, the Xbox One was indeed pwned, relatively recently. However, because the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for so long, it got pwned years after it was a relevant, money making console. Novel jailbreaks for ancient iPhones are not worth much. But attention on current, brand new devices means increasing the danger that a mistake gets found, which increases the odds that that mistake is found by someone who wants to sell it for the most money. Also, from Apple's perspective a zero-day in the bootloader on macOS also means a zero-day in the bootloader in all of the billions of iOS devices out there too. They do not want to give anyone anymore reason than what already exists to try and pwn LLB or iBoot. Given a happy path, all of that hacker energy for "put Linux on my M1 Macbook" is put towards device drivers and support, rather than "how the hell do we get an alternative kernel booting on this thing". Fewer bullets pinging off the armor. Fewer cracks in the fuselage forming. Fewer knives to dodge. All of it means Apple's boot process for their current devices are less likely to be pwned before they turn into e-waste (whenever that is, not making a comment on Apple's perhaps accelerated or otherwise practices in obsolescence). Just like a jetliner will eventually succumb to entropy and become dangerous to fly, so too will a lot of "secure" software. You only need to actively maintain a jetliner while it is flying passengers or cargo. Once it is retired, it can rot, people can break into the husk of it at the junkyard and fornicate and smoke crack and smash windows and steal parts of the fuselage. At that point, who cares?
- AKSF_Ackermann 4mo agoApparently fixed already, or will be fixed soon. https://social.treehouse.systems/@chaos_princess/116725464410069062 https://social.treehouse.systems/@chaos_princess/11672546441...
- himata4113 4mo ago404
- Chu4eeno 4mo agoWorks here, here's the text for anyone who can't access it: > Turns out APFS has an undocumented "VolBootable" flag that we were never setting since, well, it is undocumented, and the boot picker never cared about it (it read it and printed it's state to system log, just did not take any action). Anyway, fix PR-ed to asahi-installer, old installs will have an installer option to set the flag. But still, probably hold off on installing macos betas :P.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 4mo agoSo it was unintentional behavior in a beta release? Yeah that definitely does feel like something we should be getting up in arms about
- zitterbewegung 4mo agoI’m sorry but some of the comments are out of touch. Apple devices do not have any intent of supporting separate OSes . Asahi supports M1 to M2. I can see this as a PSA to not install a beta but I am confused who would install both Akashi and macOS 27 beta at the same time when you could run the beta in a VM for development ? Others have said that this has been a fix that will happen soon.
- zamadatix 4mo agoThere is clear intent, albeit not as good as the Boot Camp days. One doesn't just accidentally the Boot Policy subsystem to enable doing so every step of the way as it is. It has even been remarked as much by an Apple dev: https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914716454526979 https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914716454526979 > I purposely designed a mechanism so that M1 Macs would retain the capability to boot completely arbitrary code instead of XNU if users wanted. But you have to 1) reboot to recoveryOS with a physical power button press and 2) put in your SEP-backed credentials. > The challenge to running arbitrary code of course, as @marcan42 noted in his crowdfunding effort to getting linux on the M1, is that the SOC is undocumented, so you still have to reuse bits of XNU and/or reverse engineer a bunch of stuff. > As one senior architect said "the contract is that there is no contract". So that Apple can change things to suit its own needs, not others', to build the best macOS experience, which is what most customers (besides y'all who follow me) are there for. 12.1 also added support for raw image boot, which was seemingly for, and has only been relevant to, making booting Asahi Linux easier. Discussion at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29591578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29591578 and an archive of the tweet's content below: > Looks like Apple changed the requirements for Mach-O kernel files in 12.1, breaking our existing installation process... and they also added a raw image mode that will never break again and doesn't require Mach-Os. And people said they wouldn't help. This is intended for us.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- prmoustache 4mo agoDo you need to keep a MacOs installation when you install Asahi?
- gavinsyancey 4mo agoI believe it's not strictly necessary, but the project recommends that you do.
- tcmart14 4mo agoTo add on. If I remember correctly, its been awhile keeping track of it, they recommend you do because macOS is how you will get firmware updates as there are not any or many mechanisms to update firmware on Apple Silicon devices from Linux.
- ajaimk 4mo agoIt’s a beta… Apple is very pro Asahi
- bigyabai 4mo ago> Apple is very pro Asahi I don't believe that Apple has ever acknowledged the project at all, let alone promote it. Apple is neutral towards their work as far as I can tell.
- cromka 4mo ago> I don't believe that Apple has ever acknowledged the project at all, let alone promote it. Apple is neutral towards their work as far as I can tell. How do you draw that conclusion based on their public indifference? If they acknowledged it and promoted, you could assume they are pro Asahi. But them not acknowledging it doesn't imply they aren't anti Asahi. If they actually wanted that project to succeed and bring more diversity to Mac dev ecosystem, they'd help the project outright. Meanwhile they continue to exploit Linux for their dev purposes while still locking you into the macOS. This is their clear strategy, i.e. to make you continue to use macOS even when you prefer Linux as dev platform, just based on what they showed during WWDC. They aren't neutral.
- ernsheong 4mo agoBeers not allowed
- inventor7777 4mo agoThe comments there are absolutely insane lol, especially now that we know it's a bug. I did not realize that some people were still so anti-Apple. I'm of course not saying that there's not a small element of truth in many of the comments, but talk about some straw man arguments.
- AtlasBarfed 4mo agoI did not realize all the tech companies had completely changed their behaviors to be granted the benefit of the doubt. Sure they don't do EVERYTHING we think they do, but they do so much, and so much more we DON'T know about... Anyway, Apple could help the Linux team in months to close huge amounts of functionality gaps but ... they don't.
- inventor7777 4mo agoI am not (purposefully) granting them the benefit of the doubt. In my comment I simply noted that the comments there are extremely anti-Apple yet without any solid arguments behind them, and I also noted that the whole thing is just because of an APFS flag which could be fixed from Asahi's side. The main reason I made the comment is because I am shocked at how poorly backed the arguments are. As for Apple not helping the Linux team, why would they, or any major OEM? Apple is perfectly happy with https://github.com/apple/container https://github.com/apple/container
- bigyabai 4mo agoWhen Microsoft futzes with the MBR and locks out Linux users, we complain. When Apple futzes with the APFS partition flags, we complain. It's not that hard to understand. > why would they, or any major OEM? Apple Silicon doesn't expose any obvious ACPI-equivalent power management interface. Apple could very easily document that hardware without exposing proprietary devicetree drivers, but someone internally must love watching Asahi users suffer through cpuidle. There isn't likely to be advanced power management drivers for Apple Silicon on Linux within this decade. At the very least, I think it's fair to expect Apple to document breaking iBoot changes. They don't have to, but they feed a dog's dinner to their power users when they don't.
- NoPicklez 4mo agoGuys its a beta, did we forget what those were? Save the assumptions of ill intent until it hit at least hits production
- CloudHackerFr 4mo ago[dead]