9 ms·
Dav2d
- aetherspawn 5mo agoOk whose idea was ‘Wiener filtering’
- cogman10 5mo agoNorbert Wiener in the 1940s. He invented the technique. It's a semi-common last name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_filter?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_filter?wprov=sfla1
- hactually 5mo agostandard in DSP. Super cool and can be used on stock trades and other predictive markets.
- jordand 5mo ago'AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding. In practice, that means software running on today’s hardware will struggle to decode AV2 in real time without careful, architecture-specific optimization' AV1 software decoding is already very intensive so AV2 decoding benchmarks are the next thing that would be really interesting (or mortifying) to see.
- jbk 5mo ago> AV1 software decoding is already very intensive so AV2 decoding benchmarks are the next thing that would be really interesting (or mortifying) to see. Yes, this is going to be fun to watch.
- mrbluecoat 5mo agoI came to post this as well. Until widespread, inexpensive hardware catches up to a 2018 codec, AV# will remain a niche ideal.
- breve 5mo agoHardly niche. My laptop isn't new and it has hardware AV1 decoding and encoding. My 10 year old iPhone 7 can play 1080p AV1 video in software for over 200 minutes with VLC. The iPhone 7 was released in 2016, a year and a half before AV1. The dav1d decoder is mighty. Netflix uses AV1: https://netflixtechblog.com/av1-now-powering-30-of-netflix-streaming-02f592242d80 https://netflixtechblog.com/av1-now-powering-30-of-netflix-s... YouTube uses AV1. It's tough to be more mainstream than that. Right click on a YouTube video and select Stats for Nerds. If your system is capable of it, chances are it will be playing back in AV1. Most of the YouTube videos I watch these days are AV1 encodes. Sometimes it's in VP9 and occasionally it's H.264.
- sylware 5mo agoSame. Mostly AV1, sometimes VP9, and rarely h264. What's missing mostly: live streams which are h264. Currently, and I say currently, dav1d is so fast, no worries on that side.
- weiliddat 5mo agoSupported is different from doing it well though. You do notice the performance hit even on TVs that playback YouTube videos on AV1. Even on 1080p videos running on AV1 on 1x, the TV system bogs down and any kind of interaction has a variable 1-3s lag. On some TVs if you do 1.25x the TV automatically "downgrades" the resolution to 480p to avoid dropping frames. I wish there was an option to still use VP9 / H.264 on those systems (even limited to 1080p).
- Dylan16807 5mo agoMore reason to never use the builtin stuff in a tv. Cheap sticks can handle decoding fine.
- TingPing 5mo agoYoutube artificially limits the resolution, on mine if you cast the exact same video it doesn’t impose that limit and works fine.
- kmfrk 5mo agoIntel's Arc dGPUs were really compelling for dedicated AV1 encode and decode, especially the small form factor of some cards. You could even fit it as a secondary card in a PC dedicated to recording and encode workflows for OBS. Hope we get a similar option with future lineups that support AV2, especially given how popular video creation and streaming are now.
- thrownthatway 5mo agoIs there a compelling reason encoding needs to be done locally? The point of encoding is to reduce downstream bandwidth for the viewer, and upstream bandwidth for the distribution network. The content creator only needs to upload it once.
- halJordan 5mo agoWell yes? The platforms only accept certain resolution/bitrates and also most of America isnt running 1gig up. They're running 5-30 mbps up. So yeah they need to encode it.
- thrownthatway 5mo ago> They're running 5-30 mbps up Do you not have 98% high speed 5G coverage?
- ihattendorf 5mo agoData caps make that hard. While everyone likes to claim unlimited data, I'm not aware of any providers that don't have a heavy data user clause where they'll deprioritize your data if you're a top ~5% data user (usually somewhere over ~1TB/month). You also will need _some_ sort of encoding locally before uploading, even if it's minimal, which could lead to issues when encoded again (although there are codecs available to minimize this).
- Forgeties79 5mo agoJust over half the world’s smartphone users do (meaning almost half don’t), and certain countries/areas have way more coverage than others. And a massive number of people have limited data per month, which means it’s also a cost concern. Leaner delivery is not just ethical, but it also makes better business sense.
- nwallin 5mo ago> AV1 software decoding is already very intensive I think you might be misunderestimating how incredible the dav1d AV1 decoder is. Not only does it require less total time than the reference decoder to decode the same video, but it can spread that out over far more threads. I was unable to watch 4k 60fps av1 video on my media center PC (it's from 2019, so predates hardware av1 decoding, and, well, the CPU was a little long in the tooth) until I switched to dav1d. With dav1d I am now able to watch 4k 60fps av1 using software decoding, and my machine uses 10% CPU while doing so. Really amazing piece of software. With any luck, the dav2d 5x claim will hold true, and 10% CPU usage will scale to 50% CPU usage, meaning I'm still able to watch 4k 60fps video on my media center without a hardware upgrade. (that machine doesn't have hyperthreading, so 50% cpu is actually 50%, not 100% in a fancy suit)
- rbultje 5mo agodav2d author here - the 5x number is just where we currently are, it's not the theoretical limit. We're hopeful that a significant amount of the increase we observe in dav2d relative to dav1d is in math code, which should be easier to optimize using hand-written assembly or other algorithmic optimizations. If that holds true, the practical slowdown once everything has been optimized may be substantially less, possibly 2x.
- Eldodi 5mo ago[flagged]
- UnlockedSecrets 5mo agoThey filed a suit, henceforth making a claim of an issue...... They haven't "proved" anything other then they have lawyers on staff that can file some paperwork until the suit is settled in court...
- AndrewDucker 5mo agoHow does that prove anything? They're claiming that there are patents, but that doesn't mean there are.
- Eldodi 5mo agoDolby is only the most recent case, Sisvel consorsium actually bills licences per device: Consumer Display Device: EUR 0.32 Consumer Non-Display Device: EUR 0.11 (source here: https://www.sisvel.com/licensing-programmes/audio-and-video-coding-decoding/video-coding-platform-av1/#tab-licence-terms https://www.sisvel.com/licensing-programmes/audio-and-video-...)
- UnlockedSecrets 5mo agoHow does how they bill for their product, matter in terms of if their lawsuit holds merit?
- croes 5mo agoThat doesn’t prove their claims are valid. I can claim the same and offer licenses per device.
- silotis 5mo agoCan you point to any other patent lawsuit over AV1? AFAIK the Dolby case is the first.
- zamadatix 5mo ago
- Slurpee99 5mo ago... improvements around 25% compared to AV1 AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding I'm not sure what these two lines mean or if we can compare them, any help?
- croes 5mo agoSmaller files but harder to decode
- jbk 5mo ago> I'm not sure what these two lines mean or if we can compare them, any help? AV2 saves 25% bandwidth at the cost of 5x more decoding complexity.
- 0x1ceb00da 5mo agoWhat does "complexity" mean here? Computation required?
- simjnd 5mo agoYes
- BillStrong 5mo agoYes, much higher computation required to encode it, and decode it, both.
- poly2it 5mo agoSorry if this sounds naive, but does it make sense to write a codec library in C/ASM considering how well Rust is progressing, especially when, as the author puts it, AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding?
- jbk 5mo agoBecause it's 5 times more complex, you need to get the maximum performance available. Therefore more ASM than ever. Rust does not bring more performance. Just more safety.
- LoganDark 5mo agoThe safety can be worth it in certain cases. Like when handling untrusted input. And it's not just Rust: look at WUFFS for example. WUFFS can actually rival handwritten implementations in certain cases.
- throawayonthe 5mo agobut not these cases
- IshKebab 5mo agoI don't see why not. What makes you think this is unique?
- adgjlsfhk1 5mo agoWUFFS like approaches work better for algorithms like lz77 that are substantially bandwidth constrained. for something like a video codec, the computational intensity is much higher so you need better codegen to reach max speed
- bigyabai 5mo agoIt really should be, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY
- GaggiX 5mo agoI would love to see comparisons with AV1 on very low bitrates.
- UnlockedSecrets 5mo agoReturn of the 8MB Shrek encodes?
- MaxikCZ 5mo agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20210416200451/https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/677266163994198020/832698449828118548/Shrek.mkv https://web.archive.org/web/20210416200451/https://cdn.disco... Shrek 1 at 8.34MB including audio.. insane
- coldpie 5mo agoVideo resolution: 128x72, hahah. Late 90s RealPlayer postage stamp video is back! To its credit, that whole movie is probably smaller than RealPlayer itself was.
- GaggiX 5mo agoI love this, hope to see a AV2 version at 8MB
- ant6n 5mo agoThere's a 64MB game boy advance cartridge with shrek on it [1]. Looks pretty horrible [2]. But the GBA only has 16KB fast / 256KB slow RAM, and a 16MHz CPU. [1] https://archive.org/details/Shrek-Video-GBA https://archive.org/details/Shrek-Video-GBA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyOfPZQl4MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyOfPZQl4MI
- asimovDev 5mo agoI once watched an entire movie (around 90 mins) on a Nokia 6303. This reminds me of that
- lostmsu 5mo ago
- husky8 5mo agoIs codex working on novel decoders 24/7? I hope
- anoncow 5mo agoI thought this was about Dave2D
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- adithyassekhar 5mo agoSame
- ltheanine 5mo agoYeah I suppose it’s named after dav1d but still seems like a pretty unfortunate name collision.
- fitzroymckay 5mo agosame
- xk9 5mo agoExactly
- cozzyd 5mo agoSoon to be decodable with dav2d!
- latexr 5mo agoWhen AV1 was first announced, I got the impression the name was chosen partly as a pun/reference/homage to AVI, the classic but outdated format with used to be popular. Then when I saw Dav1d, OK, good way to continue the pun. But now with AV2 and Dav2d, that completely breaks. Are we eventually going to get AV3/Dav3d and AV4/Dav4d, which will read like Ave/Daved and Ava/Davad? Seems a bit awkward. Was the idea from the start to have the 1 be the version number, and have it specifically be part of the name?
- WhrRTheBaboons 5mo ago> experience Dav... Now in 3D!
- jl6 5mo ago1dav2codecs? 2av2furious?
- Hendrikto 5mo agoAnd then AV3: Tokyo Drift, and after that AV Episode 1.
- BillStrong 5mo agoAlready predicting which versions to avoid, huh.
- xp84 5mo agoOr go the Apple Watch naming scheme route. Just “AV” Next, AV Series 1 and 2 (released simultaneously) Later, AV Edition but it costs $10,000
- brnt 5mo agoAV360. AV365. AV2030. AVXP. AV8. AV10. Perhaps some here will be around for AV95. Young AV?
- account42 5mo ago
- remix2000 5mo ago> Make it fast on older desktop, by writing asm for SSSE3+ chips I guess 5 years ago (around the time when Intel stopped making SSE-only chips) is technically "older", but I wouldn't prioritize avx2 when devices intended for consuming media definitely experience much less pressure to upgrade than workstations…
- otherjason 5mo agoAlmost every Intel CPU released since 2013 has AVX2 support. Some Atom SKUs were longer holdouts, but the fraction of x86 CPUs shipped in the last decade that have AVX2 support is very high.
- the__alchemist 5mo agoNot to be confused with Da4vid (world-class hacker and owner of the Black sun) or D4vd (rap artist and alleged murderer)
- staindk 5mo agoOr Dave2D, popular tech youtuber
- JoshTriplett 5mo ago> Not to be confused with Da4vid (world-class hacker and owner of the Black sun) *Da5id
- F3nd0 5mo agoI don’t think the chances of confusion between a niche celebrity and a video decoder are very big.
- Cthulhu_ 5mo agoOr DAVE2.EXE (https://archive.org/details/DangerousDaveInCopyrightInfringement https://archive.org/details/DangerousDaveInCopyrightInfringe...)
- kingstnap 5mo agoThis seems like an interesting case to test AI agents on. Like we had weird examples like C compilers and Bun. This is a much more interesting example because its highly nontrivial. AV1 exists, Dav1d exists. Lets see AI take the AV2 spec and Dav1d code and try to make a working high performance AV2 decoder.
- rbultje 5mo ago> Lets see AI take the AV2 spec and Dav1d code and try to make a working high performance AV2 decoder. That sounds like one of these high-risk, high-reward things that are great for people / projects / companies who have nothing to lose, but is not a great baseline strategy for an established market player. AV2 is here with support from aomedia and its members. AV2 will be used, and we need a production-grade decoder regardless of where AI is at, so it makes much more conservative business sense to use established approaches (language: c/asm, devteam: ffmpeg/dav1d) as a starting point. While that's happening, we can dabble in AI and other risky stuff and see if it helps. If so, great, and if not, nothing lost.
- kingstnap 4mo agoWhat's the high risk? That you end up with useless code? I didn't mean that the Dav1d people should yolo vibe code Dav2d. My point was this this is a very interesting possible experiment since there is no existing Dav2d contamination in the training data.
- plopilop 5mo agoSeems like the blog succumbed to the HN hug of death (`Actioning this file would cause "jbkempf.com//blog/2026/dav2d/" to exceed the per-day file actions limit of 160000 actions, try again later`), is there a copy available somewhere?
- juliie 5mo agoit got archived by the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20260531115337/https://jbkempf.com/blog/2026/dav2d/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260531115337/https://jbkempf.c...
- celsoazevedo 5mo ago"Too Many Requests" - https://web.archive.org/web/20260531130034/https://jbkempf.com/blog/2026/dav2d/ https://web.archive.org/web/20260531130034/https://jbkempf.c... - https://archive.md/ln5UE https://archive.md/ln5UE
- kaka314 5mo agoToo much traffic from HN? ``` Too Many Requests The page you have tried to access is not available because the owner of the file you are trying to access has exceeded our short term bandwidth limits. Please try again shortly. Details: Actioning this file would cause "jbkempf.com//blog/2026/dav2d/" to exceed the per-day file actions limit of 160000 actions, try again later ```
- hideout_berlin 5mo agoi had that too once i used dyndns address my linux apache crashed when some one posted it here
- BetterThanSober 5mo agoI don't know if I'm underestimating HN's reach but I doubt we did that, probably traffic from a much bigger aggregator/forum
- jezzamon 5mo agoYou are underestimating HN's reach, this happens all the time. As someone who has been on the front page of HN it's a pretty big rush in traffic!
- pstuart 5mo agoI'd wager that the load is amplified by other sites that treat HN as a goldmine of tasty links.
- NorwegianDude 5mo agoHacker news doesn't generate much traffic, despite what people are saying. The host here has a limit of 160000 files served each day. That is extremely low. If the site has an icon, css, a js file and a few images it's 10 files each visit. That's will limit it to 16k visits/day. If there are more files loaded it might just handle a few thousand visits, and they have received more than that from HN now.
- yieldcrv 5mo agoD4vd
- genxy 5mo agoA codec spec isn't done until there is at least one decoder developed in the field. So reference + 1. The field implementations often become the de facto spec. Reading the MPEG1 specs back in the 90s as a child opened my eyes to how to define complex systems. For a media coding standard, they spent most of their time saying how to interpret encoded bytes, which I realized is genius. Be descriptive about decoding and you don't have to be prescriptive about encoding. Encoding is where you can apply all the creativity, but you need to provide a way to have a shared understanding of the encoded bytes.
- spiral09 5mo ago[dead]
- mudkipdev 5mo ago> The page you have tried to access is not available because the owner of the file you are trying to access has exceeded our short term bandwidth limits. Please try again shortly. HN hug of death
- ChrisArchitect 5mo agoRelated: The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48340910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48340910
- pantalaimon 5mo agoI'm not quite convinced a 25% reduction in size is worth effectively obsoleting all devices that have hardware decoders for AV1 but will struggle to decode AV2
- amiga386 5mo agoModern video services perform multiple encodings with different codecs, bitrates and screen dimensions, and serve up the most appropriate format that the client device can decode. Youtube has hundreds of format variants: https://gist.github.com/MartinEesmaa/2f4b261cb90a47e9c41ba115a011a4aa https://gist.github.com/MartinEesmaa/2f4b261cb90a47e9c41ba11... Devices with AV1 hardware decoding - rare as they are - won't be obsoleted for a long time.
- Gigachad 5mo agoEven devices that don't aren't becoming obsolete. My M1 macbook does not have a hardware decoder and youtube seems to choose AV1 whenever it's available. The software decoder does not noticeably warm the laptop.
- breve 5mo agoWhen you host videos with near 17 billion views you're going to want to stream those videos in as few bits as possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqZsoesa55w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqZsoesa55w That extra 25% becomes worth it. Nothing will become obsolete. AV1 will stick around for a long time. And YouTube still does H.264 encodes to support old devices.
- toast0 5mo agoA new codec doesn't obsolete old devices. At least, not right away. Studios still release new dvds with mpeg2 video. Online videos tend to be available in many codecs. Video conferencing tends to negotiate to best available or has settled on ancient codecs and won't change quickly.
- FrostKiwi 4mo agoSame comment, same wording was had when going from H.264/AVC to H.265/HEVC and again to AV1. Across the board it's 30% better Size vs Quality and with an X amount increase in compute required to encode and decode. Each time these standards were put into ink, they were years from being practical.
- ethin 5mo agoOuch, looks like the HN hug of death struck again. Gives me error 429.
- arikrahman 5mo agoWhat's next, Dav4d?
- avaer 5mo agoIf decode is becoming so complicated and expensive the hardware can't handle it, why not just go full neural, send latents, and run decode on tensor cores? The answer is probably the same as for why not AV2 everything; a lot of hardware couldn't support it today. But in 10 years? It seems we're running up against fundamental limits of human-engineered video codecs at this point. There might be a lesson in there.
- Dylan16807 5mo agoWhat makes you think that would use less resources? And it's not really hardware hitting limits, it's specifically software decoding on somewhat weaker machines.
- avaer 5mo agoIt could help in the same way that running things in a shader uses less resources than running it on CPU. You're flattening the pipeline, and you can optimize better with simpler primitives and less branches.
- itishappy 5mo agoThis is a software decoder designed to run on general purpose hardware. Adding custom hardware like tensor cores to the stack would serves a different use case.
- avaer 5mo agoRight, I'm sure it's way faster in specialized hardware. What I'm saying is the performance problem is a "code smell". The algorithms are getting so complicated that perhaps we are approaching fundamental limits of heuristiccs; we might get better + faster results ditching "smart" algorithms and just learning the codec in a much higher dimensional space. Again specialized hardware, but a different approach to it.
- Cthulhu_ 5mo agoI wouldn't want it myself, but, video games already do something like this - AI upscaling. Render the game at lower resolution / quality settings, then use AI to upscale and fill in the blanks. This could work / works for video too, give it lower resolution / quality images and AI upscale. Its predecessor would calculate intermediate frames for example.
- philipallstar 5mo ago> Let dav2d be. This is an odd signoff. Are people having a go at dav2d?
- TheMrZZ 5mo agoI'm French, and so is JB. To me it feels more like a play on "Let there be light", as in French we'd say "Let the light be". I might be wrong but I did not feel this insinuated people were having a go at AV2/dav2d.
- latentsea 5mo agoWait until you try d4vid, it's killer.
- Barbing 5mo ago(A child murder joke) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D4vd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D4vd
- account42 5mo agoIs there actually a reasonably performing encoder that can compete with the x26* family in real world conditions this time?
- ZeroGravitas 4mo agoLast time Intel's SVT-AV1 managed to beat both x265 and x265 at various quality/speed tradeoffs. I assume there will be an SVT-AV2 too which will semi-automatically gain from the SVT foundation for working with lots of cores but will still need specific work to support and then tune AV2 encoding.
- marccc 5mo ago[dead]
- ksec 4mo ago>The reported gains vary depending on the test conditions, but improvements around 25% compared to AV1 are commonly seen >AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding. For the past 8 to 10 years VideoLan are the only guys on the AOM camp who doesn't care about optics and willing to spell out the truth. >because we did not believe hardware decoding would become available quickly enough, or on enough devices. The we was basically VideoLAN only. All other members ( at least on the AOM ) thought hardware decoder would be ready by 2019. And we all know how that works out.