11 ms·

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have t

by mcv 5mo ago

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. I've always been annoyed by the need to type in sensitive card info on all sorts of merchant sites. I hope that with EU-wide use, Wero will receive much broader support now.

throw1234567891 5mo ago
That’s how giro payments work. Same for Klarna.
jim180 5mo ago
as it was the case in Baltic states since forever. Payments with CC came much later.
ramon156 5mo ago
I think any dutchie can vouch that iDeal has been amazing. I would also like to add that Wise has been amazing for american payments. I needed it for Anthropic at the time, and this worked good enough
- DonHopkins 5mo ago
  Certainly better and easier to say than Chipknip!
  - jeroenhd 5mo ago
    Funnily enough, the ECB's Digital Euro initiative has a lot in common with the chipknip, except you can now also charge your wallet with larger amounts of money.
    - DonHopkins 5mo ago
      Chipknip has the mouth feel of Gnip Gnop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2bqI--c-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2bqI--c-k
  - beng-nl 5mo ago
    RIP chipknip. But let’s appreciate its ambition: electronic payments without being online.
cfontes 5mo ago
PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and while iDEAL is pretty good, PIX is easier to understand, explain, and deal with. PIX has more variants, you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays. I would say Tikkie is almost as good and easy to use as PIX usecase wise but has less adoption and variants, also it belongs to ABN which is completely different from PIX approach.
- sschueller 5mo ago
  PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.
  - philipallstar 5mo ago
    That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine.
    - somewhatgoated 5mo ago
      I guess it comes down to who you would trust more - your own government which you have some control over via elections or some (potentially multinational) corporation which you have exactly zero control over?
      - philipallstar 5mo ago
        It's the other way around. You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. You have very, very coarse-grained control with the government every few years.
kccqzy 5mo ago
There is a 3DSecure system for existing Visa, Mastercard, and American Express. After typing your card numbers, the transaction doesn’t immediately go through but you are also redirected to the bank’s system. Banks can ask you to use a hardware token, an app, or any other second factor to approve the transaction. It’s a shame that this system isn’t ubiquitous for the rest of us not in EU.
- Xirdus 5mo ago
  The problem with 3D Secure is that the merchant can unilaterally decide not to use it, which defeats the whole purpose of 3D Secure.
  - nottorp 5mo ago
    I tend to associate ignoring 3D Secure with Stripe. In the name of "less friction" of course.
  - antonkochubey 5mo ago
    non-3DS payments are trivial to chargeback, at least in the EU
    - kccqzy 5mo ago
      In America all payments are trivial to chargeback anyways. We ought to have liability shifting. A long time ago there was a liability shift where if a merchant uses the magnetic stripe on a card equipped with a chip, then the merchant is unconditionally liable in case of a chargeback. We just needed merchants to be liable when the bank supported 3DSecure but the merchant chose not to use it.
    - lxgr 5mo ago
      They are everywhere. Default liability for online payments is and has always been with the merchant; only 3DS and some wallets can shift it to the issuer.
  - swiftcoder 5mo ago
Spinfusor 5mo ago
This is one of the reasons I opt for PayPal in the US when I have the choice. I've been in too many breaches. Direct to bank would be better, but I trust PayPal's security more than a random ecommerce website's security.
- TheJoeMan 5mo ago
  I caution PayPal would only work if you trusted the original shopping site, and perhaps your "credentials" got breached and used illicitly elsewhere. I got banned from PayPal after I tried to buy an electrical switch, was on an (apparently scam) website, never received the item, and opened a PayPal dispute. The scammer somehow convinced PayPal the item I tried to buy was illegal/against PayPal ToS, which resulted in them banning *me* instead of the scammer. On the other hand, I see an unknown charge on my credit-card, dispute with my bank, and it's handled.
- poody 5mo ago
  No way on PayPal,venmo, or any company associated with Paypal... I got screwed over with an unauthorized transaction on my credit card that was attached to a PayPal account... They refused to acknowledge the transaction as unauthorized... My Credit Card that was charged (Amex) on the otherhand, reversed the transaction within 24hours
IndianHandwash 5mo ago
I'm annoyed by redirects that won't work if you set a different default browser or incognito mode as default for new tabs. Total BS. Card numbers just work. Also, payment "apps" that pack their own web engine and need 300-500 megs D/L, plus refuse to run on rooted / "unvetted" systems. No fucks given! Go away, give a browser and numbers.
- djfdat 5mo ago
  Perfect opportunity for browser or OS API to provide the feature, where we could make it more streamlined, secure, and consistent.
  - TheJoeMan 5mo ago
    I like the friction to decide against frivolous spending...
- jeroenhd 5mo ago
  If you don't set a default browser, you'll be prompted what browser to open redirects and such in every time. Unfortunately you still can't easily distinguish between normal browsing and private browsing that way (though browsers could implement that in theory), but I ran that setup for a while back when Firefox couldn't integrate with the App Tabs or whatever it's called where Android apps have their own minimal UI around a full screen web view (which used to always be Chrome). Card numbers don't work because the business receiving the payment doesn't automatically get a signal from the bank when payments come in without an annoyingly complicated banking integration, which is exactly what these new services intend to solve. They do work for the consumer in some cases, and I have been paying for some online services with regular old bank transfers in cases where I didn't need a payment to go through the same day. That doesn't mean it's an equivalent system in most cases. If your banking app doesn't run on your device because of something as silly as root detection, you should find a better bank.
hirako2000 5mo ago
In fact a unique payment ID (e.g QR) to "push" payment is even safer. No redirect. That's how payment should be. Not an authorization given to pull from us, but the agency for us to push the amount.
- Imustaskforhelp 5mo ago
  If I am understanding you correct, isn't this what UPI does already?
  - hirako2000 5mo ago
    Yes. Common among Asian countries. Where authorizing a 3rd party to pull money isn't natural. Among the main reasons Uber failed there.
- gardenerik 5mo ago
  In fact, there is EPC code, but it is rarely used and bank support is abysmal, at least in our country. But that can also be because we have some homegrown local standard for payment QR codes (and a new one in the works, lol). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code
- legends2k 5mo ago
  This is exactly what India's UPI (Unified Payments Interface) works. No PII, just a UPI ID is given and the user gets a push notification in Android/iOS app for approval (with PIN or security enclave like fingerprint).
- WhyNotHugo 5mo ago
  We already have a unique payment system though: SEPA QRC. They include the IBAN and some payment details.
abdullahkhalids 5mo ago
Banks and Visa/Mastercard probably love that you fill out your CC details on an online store, and next time you can just 1-click pay. Probably causes a big jump in revenue/profit. That's why they never innovated much. Of course, it is incorrect, and digital payments everywhere (on a kiosk or online) should be intentional pushes, not pulls.
- akdev1l 5mo ago
  You could still have this 1-click experience with another system. Like you could set some rule like “this vendor is approved for charges below $50”. We don’t need the legacy system for that. (I don’t know if any payment systems can do that atm, just that if we wanted we could make them do that) Visa seemed not to care too much about fraud though so at some level they do prefer ease of use over security
- lxgr 5mo ago
  I want many payments to be pull-based (at least I'd go crazy having to positively sign off every utility bill and subscription), but the ideal user interface for pull payments shows who exactly is pulling what, with a few days notice, and a one-click way to cancel any standing authorization.
  - tekne 5mo ago
    Something something capability-based finance something something
  - abdullahkhalids 5mo ago
    That still works. There are three entities: customer, bank and merchant. The merchant should never be able to pull from your bank account. However, the merchant can send an invoice for a payment. Either the customer manually pushes the payment, or delegates to the bank that each invoice from merchant X should immediately result in a payment push [1]. The difference from the pull system is that the customer can at any point end this automatic push payment, but in the pull system the customer can only beg the merchant (eg. the gym) to stop charging their account. [1] Or even better in an ideal world, delegate this pushing to their local finance app. So the bank can't put roadblocks for a customer cancelling a subscription.
zaphirplane 5mo ago
The redirect to a bank is worrying, isn’t it trivial to fake redirecting to a fake bank ?
- lxgr 5mo ago
  Not really, since in modern 3DS implementations, the redirect pretty much only shows a modal saying "check your phone for a notification and confirm this payment there". Worst case, you'll be entering a one-time code received out of band, e.g. via SMS, and that message will mention what you are consenting to by entering it anywhere, so even MITM attacks are very hard. The days of entering a static password in 3DS are long gone.
- antonkochubey 5mo ago
  not really, the redirect itself is happening at EMV DS level, not by the merchant himself. Merchant has no idea what bank your card belongs to, so he does not know which bank to redirect you to.
- tdrz 5mo ago
  You'll need to fake much more than just that. Usually the bank website will ask you to confirm the transaction by opening the banking app on your mobile phone.
  - deaux 5mo ago
    Trading a dependency on MasterCard and Visa for one on Google and Apple is at best a sidegrade. More likely you end up worse off.
    - locknitpicker 5mo ago
      > Trading a dependency on MasterCard and Visa for one on Google and Apple is at best a sidegrade. That's really not how it works. You as the user are prompted to pick the bank you want to use, and then your bank prompts you to approve the transaction. The only scenario I can think of that might involve google or apple is if you want to use Android or iPhone for mobile payments with NFC.
madradavid 5mo ago
Interestingly in a number of African Countries (Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania etc) , we have “Mobile Money”, Payments are instant, via USSD, no internet required, I can even pay online using USSD push.This is a classical example of humans using what they have to build what they need , no fancy internet enabled smart phones required. I can send money anytime instantly to my grandma deep in the village. She can withdraw from or top up her account in the numerous mobile money stalls that are everywhere. You pay school dues, medical bills , groceries via mobile money. I don’t remember the last time I visited a bank, hell I can even get an instant loan by just dailing *165# on my no internet feature phone.
- arbol 5mo ago
  Are you referring to m-pesa?
- AdamN 5mo ago
  That's still a man in the middle coordinating the payments (mpesa, etc...) and essentially holding both sides of the transaction. When you send money to somebody with mobile money you're sending it to the mobile network operator who then let's the other person know so they can move the money to somebody else (or cashout or leave it there). It's not really a federated system because you can't for instance send money from mpesa in kenya to a different provider in uganda.
  - madradavid 5mo ago
    Actually you can send money (cross border payments ) to another country that also has mobile money, I can send money to a Kenyan, Tanzanian etc all I need is their Phone number. I am not sure what you mean by “holding both sides of the transaction “, when you send me money it appears in my balance (which I can check via a USSD query), it’s essentially a bank account but on USSD and sms. A lot of cross border payments are now settled via USSD. Hell I can now get a Visa/Mastercard by just dailing a code and I will have payment details with my name and address.
- dzonga 5mo ago
  the mobile money while convenient r not exactly secure due to MITM.
anilakar 5mo ago
Most online merchants redirect me to my bank's web page when I enter my Visa credit card number. In theory it should be possible to have a card number that by itself is useless and always requires an external confirmation?
- amoss 5mo ago
  with a mastercard from a swedish bank that is the experience that i get. all online transactions pop up a page from my back with qr code, this is authenticated through an app that shows me the transaction details and requires pin confirmation.
baq 5mo ago
there's the polish BLIK which is basically the same idea and there are probably a dozen more in other countries; need consolidation in this space tbh
CodesInChaos 5mo ago
> iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work Is it? I see it more as an underwhelming fix for SEPA Direct Debit's inability to verify payment data synchronously. * iDeal doesn't support basic features like pre-authorization. I'm not even sure if it supports setting up a payment agreement without triggering an immediate payment at all (pretty sure it didn't, when we integrated it a couple of years ago). * It hands over the customer's IBAN, which isn't really that much safer than a credit card number, since any merchant can trigger a SEPA Direct Debit using it. While you can trigger a chargeback, that requires you to actively monitor for fraudulent transactions, which a decent system wouldn't allow in the first place. * iDeal recurring payments are SEPA Direct Debit, with all their downsides, like taking days to confirm and a payment that fails due to insufficient funds in the customer's bank account resulting in a significant fee the merchant has to pay (and will probably pass on to the customer). And Wero has one of the worst, least informative websites I have ever seen. So it's really hard to figure out how it works, and what it supports.
- hvb2 5mo ago
  > It hands over the customer's IBAN, which isn't really that much safer than a credit card number, since any merchant can trigger a SEPA Direct Debit using it. Yes. And they would quickly lose their ability to process any payments. This is the exact same idea as how credit cards work. I don't see my IBAN as a secret, all my friends have it, as thats how they can send me money right to my account. > that requires you to actively monitor for fraudulent transactions, which a decent system wouldn't allow in the first place. So that rules out credit cards too, exact same system. I'm not familiar with pix mentioned in the other threads, but I am not familiar with any other system that is better
- gpvos 5mo ago
  No. The bank gives you a prominent notification when someone new gets a direct debit authorization for your account. And a merchant gets banned quickly when they misuse their debit authorization.
  - upcoming-sesame 5mo ago
stronglikedan 5mo ago
> Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. That's basically Paypal and everyone still shits on them.
- baq 5mo ago
  paypal goes to great lengths to not be regulated as a bank, right?
- swiftcoder 5mo ago
  I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the actual PayPal payments flow. Most complaints are around seizing large balances due to suspected fraud...
gonzalohm 5mo ago
How does the website know which bank to redirect to?
- jorisw 5mo ago
  A dropdown is offered and the choice is remembered.
ErrorNoBrain 5mo ago
In Denmark i currently have to enter my card details but then, i get a popup where i have to enter my government issued ID username and scan a QR code from the related app (or enter from a 2fa token generator) Its annoying - but it feels quite secure
pelasaco 5mo ago
> I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. To be honest with multiple banks in Germany, without Wero, works like that too..
rwke 5mo ago
I recommend also have a look at how eCommerce is done in Chile, e.g. Transbank (WebPay), FinToc and others. Chile passed some very good FinTech legislation a few years ago.
bux93 5mo ago
Wero is super confusing. They're in the business of acquiring different methods (I don't even know if they always buy them outright or if they merge or they are just associated in some way), branding them ALL wero, and announcing that every payment in every channel will be rolled out SOON via wero, without ever offering specifics. So in The Netherlands wero is the new name of eCommerce payments, but in another country the new name for peer2peer. But no idea when p2p will launch in the Netherlands or when eCommerce will launch elsewhere. And if the existing services will be degraded when they are internationalized or merged.
- jbverschoor 5mo ago
  iDEAL is a killer name
tims33 5mo ago
iDeal is terrible for fraud. Consumers have to file a police report.
- vanviegen 5mo ago
  Indeed, it's terrible for fraud, as fraudsters are more likely to land behind bars.
  - tims33 5mo ago
    Sure, but nowhere near as easy as filling a dispute on most other payment networks.
anal_reactor 5mo ago
> Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. For some reason, most Dutch people are convinced that the way things work in the Netherlands is the gold standard of how things should work in general, and are very hostile to solutions from other countries even if those solutions are better by any sensible metric. This is especially painful when a less developed country does leaps around NL in some aspect, like: 1. In Poland, you don't need to carry any documents with you because if policeman stops you, he has access the police database anyway. This includes driving license. 2. Even if you really want to show a document, you can do it gasp on your phone screen with the official government app. 3. Albert Heijn, the most popular supermarket chain, started accepting Visa and MasterCard in 2023. Not in 2003, in fucking 2023. 4. The adoption of paczkomaty is pathetic and when you have a delivery the expectation is that you're supposed to sit and wait the entire day at home. 5. iDeal launched 2005. Przelewy24 launched in 2004. They function in exactly the same way.
- vanviegen 5mo ago
  /rant? :-) 1. sounds nice though! But how do they verify that it's actually you? Just matching the photo manually? People are terrible at that. Or do they scan a fingerprint?
  - anal_reactor 5mo ago
    > Just matching the photo manually? Yes. > People are terrible at that. "Imperfect" doesn't mean "terrible".
- gpvos 5mo ago
  3. Yeah, the previous system we used was just too cheap and efficient. Credit cards are still not common. 4. We're indeed a bit later than elsewhere, but there are many now.
- Arcanum-XIII 5mo ago
  In reply to .3: bancontact is nearly free per operation, but credit card were percentage heavy fee per transaction... That's why. And don't forget that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg will prefer debit over credit for payment. Don't forget that the banking world is still under a lot of pressure from the various government (systemic risk assessment for example) and the stakeholders. It's a mess!
positron26 5mo ago
Making a note of this as an obvious technical alliance that should have existed for decades.
deleted 5mo ago
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jorisw 5mo ago
I'm just not sure this directly competes with MC/Visa the way the article suggests. Didn't other EU countries already have something similar to iDEAL, as opposed to using credit cards? And now we're just consolidating them? Also, isn't this just about online payments? Who's going to pay for a coffee with either Wero or a credit card? AFAIK most EU consumers use direct debit cards for in-store payments (those countries where cash is no longer popular), be it via Apple Pay / Google Pay or not. Many a card of which by the way is directly or indirectly powered by Visa or Mastercard. At any rate, I don't see EuroPA or Wero break the 'hegemony' of Visa/MC the way this article claims.
- vanviegen 5mo ago
  > At any rate, I don't see EuroPA or Wero break the 'hegemony' of Visa/MC the way this article claims. You're right, it does not. But it's a significant step towards that goal. In-store payments are next on the agenda.
- arlcode 5mo ago
  As usual if there is reasonable competition this limits what the established actors can and will do.
- efdee 5mo ago
  I can only speak for my countries, but almost all payment terminals now have the option to scan a QR code with your mobile banking app to pay using Wero.
  - jorisw 5mo ago
    That's good. Maybe I haven't seen it because direct debit via contactless (including Apple Pay) is faster, hence the default, where I am.
smirnoff_s 5mo ago
One thing that surprises me a lot is that in order to use Wero with my ING account, I have to give access to my contacts, which I ultimately am not going to do. I wonder how the European payment system can be so ignorant of their customers' privacy.
- vanviegen 5mo ago
  That has nothing to do with Wero, that's just your bank (ING) being stupid.
OptionOfT 5mo ago
What about authentication? I remember living in Belgium this was the case, and I always had to go and find that stupid physical barcode reader that I then had to hold against the screen, sign in with my debit card, PIN, enter the Euro amount, and then sign the transaction. Now that I live in the USA, I have my credit card number in Bitwarden, with expiration date and CVC. When I want to buy something, I let it autofill, and I don't have to verify and / or sign any transactions, bar high price ones (e.g. new $5k TV from Best Buy). And in terms of security? It's a credit card. I review my statement every month. If I didn't make the purchase I call the fraud department and the charge is removed. Last time I did that they didn't even ask me questions. I'd take Apple pay over the old(?) EU system.
- locknitpicker 5mo ago
  > I remember living in Belgium this was the case, and I always had to go and find that stupid physical barcode reader that I then had to hold against the screen, sign in with my debit card, PIN, enter the Euro amount, and then sign the transaction. I can't talk about Belgium but from what I've read, the dutch iDeal system requires nothing of the sort. It seems to act as a broker between your bank and the business, and a user's input is limited to pick the bank you use and approve the payment through your bank's app.
  - gpvos 5mo ago
    When using the web interface some banks still offer the physical reader (which I prefer), but the banks are pushing hard to move to the phone app.
  - nmd 5mo ago
    It used to be the case in the Netherlands with iDeal that you'd use your bank's e.dentifier for two factor auth (a physical device that you'd put your card into to get a code you could then put into the website to verify) - they replaced this with using your banking app sometime over the past 10 years.
- dalben 5mo ago
  The physical barcode reader is long gone in Belgium. Instead, you scan the QR code with your banking app (or on mobile, click a link to open the banking app), and either verify directly for amounts under €250 (?), or verify big amounts with ItsMe, another app, using Face ID.
deleted 5mo ago
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Arrowmaster 5mo ago
Yesterday I was renewing my vehicle registration through my US states website. They offered a range of payment options using embedded options on the site. The direct bank account option had the lowest fee but when I tried it I was immediately scared of the security. They used a 3rd party bank account transfer provider that asked me what bank I used and looked like it was going to prompt me for my login info before it errored out and I moved on. Why can't the US have sane banking standards instead of this mess where you have to agree to a new 3rd party TOS and EULA for every purchase you want to make.
- sandeepkd 5mo ago
  What you see is a glued or patchwork to make the things work somehow with the existing state of things. Strictly speaking, a lot of banks do not offer API support and yet these third party tools are able to orchestrate a flow with is nothing less than man-in-the-middle-attack. The change if it happens at all, across the board to streamline can only from from government mandate. The industry is always going to go for finding some low cost option to achieve the target. The private players are always going to optimize for short term gains.
- eastbayjake 5mo ago
  When using a government website, you were intimidated by the security posture of... Plaid? (Genuine question, maybe this was some other provider but Plaid's aggregator tool is the most common place I see this pop up in real life for ACH)
  - clickety_clack 5mo ago
    I personally have _no idea_ what the security posture of plaid is. I know they're a startup and made a bit of noise a few years ago, but if I was trying to buy something and a third party app popped up saying, "hey give me total access to withdraw directly from your bank account for a sec", why on earth would I say yes to that? It also seems to go against common security advice. "Never log into your back account if redirected by a website you sort of, but don't really trust, except sometimes its alright and it's up to you to tell the difference" is a terrible way to secure banking.
oliwarner 5mo ago
> should redirect me to my bank Eugh. The problem with that is that people don't verify they've actually been sent to their bank. An attacker will set up fake merchant sites, pay for Google ads to get your traffic, then have you log into your bank to pay for things. The more we normalise this, the quicker people will fall for it.
- efdee 5mo ago
  If they haven't been redirected to their bank, verifying with their mobile banking app using a QR code will not work.
  - cortesoft 5mo ago
    So I have to get out my phone every time I use my credit card on my computer?
    - jbverschoor 5mo ago
      That’s why we don’t pay 3%+ on all transactions
      - cortesoft 5mo ago
        I get 3% cash back, though.
    - ptman 5mo ago
      Not credit card. Bank account. Webauthn/passkeys could also work for auth as they check the domain and can't be phished
  - ars 5mo ago
    Can't the attacker just man-in-the-middle to the real bank, and show the QR code to the phone? Does the entire transaction take place on the phone? I don't think that's a good option.
Fnoord 5mo ago
It works very good and user-friendly, but iDeal had a disadvantage: chargebacks aren't possible. Whether Wero has the same issue, I do not know.
intuxikated 5mo ago
I thought it was an EU wide version of the belgian PayConiq
tedggh 5mo ago
Providing credit cards online even by phone for 20 years I have never had any issues, or known anyone who had issues. The few occasions my cards were compromised (all my own fault): a restaurant in Vienna pre Covid when cash was king in Europe, I insisted to use the card and the waiter took it inside lol. Got a 4000k cruise booked a few weeks later. Another time at an ATM in Brazil, I even noticed the suspects around the machines waiting and still went for it. A gas station ATM in NYC. That’s about it. Every time I called the bank and they refunded the money. So what I’m saying is security doesn’t seen to be a big issue in the US when it comes to online transactions with credit cards. Of course this is all subjective from my own experiences, but I’m kind of reckless using cards so I’m probably a good test subject.
- achogcha 5mo ago
  try getting a refund for fraudulent card charge in other countries except the US.... most other banks in LATAM/EU will not simply "refund" you the money.
- adam_patarino 5mo ago
  Individual experience is rarely an accurate representation of the broader system.
- anonzzzies 5mo ago
  But most people here don't want credit cards; risk of spending what you don't have just works differently over there outside mortgages. And then this new stuff is just objectively better: debit cards, even though you will get the money back mostly, makes it a hassle as you basically pay the lowest fees possible and never credit so fraud really sucks. And makes no sense; away with those cards; we do not need them anymore.
Bender 5mo ago
Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. That is really cool. I would like to see that system in the US given that my bank has IP restrictions for my account. I would also like the ability to pre-approve specific vendors for specific amounts within each bank as a native service all banks should support.
brightball 5mo ago
Does this work as a credit card system or for debit only?
WhyNotHugo 5mo ago
iDeal is superb and the most convenient payment method I've dealt with. Wero claims that they won't support paying through a browser, and that it will be tied to either Google or Apple, which seems like a huge step back from iDeal in its currents state. I wrote about this a few months back (including actual sources for their claims): https://whynothugo.nl/journal/2026/02/25/entrenching-american-corporations-into-local-european-payments/ https://whynothugo.nl/journal/2026/02/25/entrenching-america...

by mcv 5mo ago

throw1234567891 5mo ago

That’s how giro payments work. Same for Klarna.

jim180 5mo ago

as it was the case in Baltic states since forever. Payments with CC came much later.

ramon156 5mo ago

I think any dutchie can vouch that iDeal has been amazing. I would also like to add that Wise has been amazing for american payments. I needed it for Anthropic at the time, and this worked good enough

DonHopkins 5mo ago
Certainly better and easier to say than Chipknip!
- jeroenhd 5mo ago
  Funnily enough, the ECB's Digital Euro initiative has a lot in common with the chipknip, except you can now also charge your wallet with larger amounts of money.
  - DonHopkins 5mo ago
    Chipknip has the mouth feel of Gnip Gnop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2bqI--c-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX2bqI--c-k
- beng-nl 5mo ago
  RIP chipknip. But let’s appreciate its ambition: electronic payments without being online.

cfontes 5mo ago

PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and while iDEAL is pretty good, PIX is easier to understand, explain, and deal with. PIX has more variants, you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays. I would say Tikkie is almost as good and easy to use as PIX usecase wise but has less adoption and variants, also it belongs to ABN which is completely different from PIX approach.

sschueller 5mo ago
PIX is also better because it gives control back to the central bank (as it was with cash) and not private industry although they are providing the service. The central bank controls what payments are permitted by what laws exist, not some risk management system that has decided that your legal purchase is too risky or some foreign state has applied sanctions against you.
- philipallstar 5mo ago
  That sounds a little authoritarian for many Western countries, I imagine.
  - somewhatgoated 5mo ago
    I guess it comes down to who you would trust more - your own government which you have some control over via elections or some (potentially multinational) corporation which you have exactly zero control over?
    - philipallstar 5mo ago
      It's the other way around. You have choice with a company, and people can switch provider very quickly if they are bad. You have very, very coarse-grained control with the government every few years.

kccqzy 5mo ago

There is a 3DSecure system for existing Visa, Mastercard, and American Express. After typing your card numbers, the transaction doesn’t immediately go through but you are also redirected to the bank’s system. Banks can ask you to use a hardware token, an app, or any other second factor to approve the transaction. It’s a shame that this system isn’t ubiquitous for the rest of us not in EU.

Xirdus 5mo ago
The problem with 3D Secure is that the merchant can unilaterally decide not to use it, which defeats the whole purpose of 3D Secure.
- nottorp 5mo ago
  I tend to associate ignoring 3D Secure with Stripe. In the name of "less friction" of course.
- antonkochubey 5mo ago
  non-3DS payments are trivial to chargeback, at least in the EU
  - kccqzy 5mo ago
    In America all payments are trivial to chargeback anyways. We ought to have liability shifting. A long time ago there was a liability shift where if a merchant uses the magnetic stripe on a card equipped with a chip, then the merchant is unconditionally liable in case of a chargeback. We just needed merchants to be liable when the bank supported 3DSecure but the merchant chose not to use it.
  - lxgr 5mo ago
    They are everywhere. Default liability for online payments is and has always been with the merchant; only 3DS and some wallets can shift it to the issuer.
- swiftcoder 5mo ago

Spinfusor 5mo ago

This is one of the reasons I opt for PayPal in the US when I have the choice. I've been in too many breaches. Direct to bank would be better, but I trust PayPal's security more than a random ecommerce website's security.

TheJoeMan 5mo ago
I caution PayPal would only work if you trusted the original shopping site, and perhaps your "credentials" got breached and used illicitly elsewhere. I got banned from PayPal after I tried to buy an electrical switch, was on an (apparently scam) website, never received the item, and opened a PayPal dispute. The scammer somehow convinced PayPal the item I tried to buy was illegal/against PayPal ToS, which resulted in them banning *me* instead of the scammer. On the other hand, I see an unknown charge on my credit-card, dispute with my bank, and it's handled.
poody 5mo ago
No way on PayPal,venmo, or any company associated with Paypal... I got screwed over with an unauthorized transaction on my credit card that was attached to a PayPal account... They refused to acknowledge the transaction as unauthorized... My Credit Card that was charged (Amex) on the otherhand, reversed the transaction within 24hours

IndianHandwash 5mo ago

I'm annoyed by redirects that won't work if you set a different default browser or incognito mode as default for new tabs. Total BS. Card numbers just work. Also, payment "apps" that pack their own web engine and need 300-500 megs D/L, plus refuse to run on rooted / "unvetted" systems. No fucks given! Go away, give a browser and numbers.

djfdat 5mo ago
Perfect opportunity for browser or OS API to provide the feature, where we could make it more streamlined, secure, and consistent.
- TheJoeMan 5mo ago
  I like the friction to decide against frivolous spending...
jeroenhd 5mo ago
If you don't set a default browser, you'll be prompted what browser to open redirects and such in every time. Unfortunately you still can't easily distinguish between normal browsing and private browsing that way (though browsers could implement that in theory), but I ran that setup for a while back when Firefox couldn't integrate with the App Tabs or whatever it's called where Android apps have their own minimal UI around a full screen web view (which used to always be Chrome). Card numbers don't work because the business receiving the payment doesn't automatically get a signal from the bank when payments come in without an annoyingly complicated banking integration, which is exactly what these new services intend to solve. They do work for the consumer in some cases, and I have been paying for some online services with regular old bank transfers in cases where I didn't need a payment to go through the same day. That doesn't mean it's an equivalent system in most cases. If your banking app doesn't run on your device because of something as silly as root detection, you should find a better bank.

hirako2000 5mo ago

In fact a unique payment ID (e.g QR) to "push" payment is even safer. No redirect. That's how payment should be. Not an authorization given to pull from us, but the agency for us to push the amount.

Imustaskforhelp 5mo ago
If I am understanding you correct, isn't this what UPI does already?
- hirako2000 5mo ago
  Yes. Common among Asian countries. Where authorizing a 3rd party to pull money isn't natural. Among the main reasons Uber failed there.
gardenerik 5mo ago
In fact, there is EPC code, but it is rarely used and bank support is abysmal, at least in our country. But that can also be because we have some homegrown local standard for payment QR codes (and a new one in the works, lol). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code
legends2k 5mo ago
This is exactly what India's UPI (Unified Payments Interface) works. No PII, just a UPI ID is given and the user gets a push notification in Android/iOS app for approval (with PIN or security enclave like fingerprint).
WhyNotHugo 5mo ago
We already have a unique payment system though: SEPA QRC. They include the IBAN and some payment details.

abdullahkhalids 5mo ago

Banks and Visa/Mastercard probably love that you fill out your CC details on an online store, and next time you can just 1-click pay. Probably causes a big jump in revenue/profit. That's why they never innovated much. Of course, it is incorrect, and digital payments everywhere (on a kiosk or online) should be intentional pushes, not pulls.

akdev1l 5mo ago
You could still have this 1-click experience with another system. Like you could set some rule like “this vendor is approved for charges below $50”. We don’t need the legacy system for that. (I don’t know if any payment systems can do that atm, just that if we wanted we could make them do that) Visa seemed not to care too much about fraud though so at some level they do prefer ease of use over security
lxgr 5mo ago
I want many payments to be pull-based (at least I'd go crazy having to positively sign off every utility bill and subscription), but the ideal user interface for pull payments shows who exactly is pulling what, with a few days notice, and a one-click way to cancel any standing authorization.
- tekne 5mo ago
  Something something capability-based finance something something
- abdullahkhalids 5mo ago
  That still works. There are three entities: customer, bank and merchant. The merchant should never be able to pull from your bank account. However, the merchant can send an invoice for a payment. Either the customer manually pushes the payment, or delegates to the bank that each invoice from merchant X should immediately result in a payment push [1]. The difference from the pull system is that the customer can at any point end this automatic push payment, but in the pull system the customer can only beg the merchant (eg. the gym) to stop charging their account. [1] Or even better in an ideal world, delegate this pushing to their local finance app. So the bank can't put roadblocks for a customer cancelling a subscription.

zaphirplane 5mo ago

The redirect to a bank is worrying, isn’t it trivial to fake redirecting to a fake bank ?

lxgr 5mo ago
Not really, since in modern 3DS implementations, the redirect pretty much only shows a modal saying "check your phone for a notification and confirm this payment there". Worst case, you'll be entering a one-time code received out of band, e.g. via SMS, and that message will mention what you are consenting to by entering it anywhere, so even MITM attacks are very hard. The days of entering a static password in 3DS are long gone.
antonkochubey 5mo ago
not really, the redirect itself is happening at EMV DS level, not by the merchant himself. Merchant has no idea what bank your card belongs to, so he does not know which bank to redirect you to.
tdrz 5mo ago
You'll need to fake much more than just that. Usually the bank website will ask you to confirm the transaction by opening the banking app on your mobile phone.
- deaux 5mo ago
  Trading a dependency on MasterCard and Visa for one on Google and Apple is at best a sidegrade. More likely you end up worse off.
  - locknitpicker 5mo ago
    > Trading a dependency on MasterCard and Visa for one on Google and Apple is at best a sidegrade. That's really not how it works. You as the user are prompted to pick the bank you want to use, and then your bank prompts you to approve the transaction. The only scenario I can think of that might involve google or apple is if you want to use Android or iPhone for mobile payments with NFC.

madradavid 5mo ago

Interestingly in a number of African Countries (Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania etc) , we have “Mobile Money”, Payments are instant, via USSD, no internet required, I can even pay online using USSD push.This is a classical example of humans using what they have to build what they need , no fancy internet enabled smart phones required. I can send money anytime instantly to my grandma deep in the village. She can withdraw from or top up her account in the numerous mobile money stalls that are everywhere. You pay school dues, medical bills , groceries via mobile money. I don’t remember the last time I visited a bank, hell I can even get an instant loan by just dailing *165# on my no internet feature phone.

arbol 5mo ago
Are you referring to m-pesa?
AdamN 5mo ago
That's still a man in the middle coordinating the payments (mpesa, etc...) and essentially holding both sides of the transaction. When you send money to somebody with mobile money you're sending it to the mobile network operator who then let's the other person know so they can move the money to somebody else (or cashout or leave it there). It's not really a federated system because you can't for instance send money from mpesa in kenya to a different provider in uganda.
- madradavid 5mo ago
  Actually you can send money (cross border payments ) to another country that also has mobile money, I can send money to a Kenyan, Tanzanian etc all I need is their Phone number. I am not sure what you mean by “holding both sides of the transaction “, when you send me money it appears in my balance (which I can check via a USSD query), it’s essentially a bank account but on USSD and sms. A lot of cross border payments are now settled via USSD. Hell I can now get a Visa/Mastercard by just dailing a code and I will have payment details with my name and address.
dzonga 5mo ago
the mobile money while convenient r not exactly secure due to MITM.

anilakar 5mo ago

Most online merchants redirect me to my bank's web page when I enter my Visa credit card number. In theory it should be possible to have a card number that by itself is useless and always requires an external confirmation?

amoss 5mo ago
with a mastercard from a swedish bank that is the experience that i get. all online transactions pop up a page from my back with qr code, this is authenticated through an app that shows me the transaction details and requires pin confirmation.

baq 5mo ago

there's the polish BLIK which is basically the same idea and there are probably a dozen more in other countries; need consolidation in this space tbh

CodesInChaos 5mo ago

> iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work Is it? I see it more as an underwhelming fix for SEPA Direct Debit's inability to verify payment data synchronously. * iDeal doesn't support basic features like pre-authorization. I'm not even sure if it supports setting up a payment agreement without triggering an immediate payment at all (pretty sure it didn't, when we integrated it a couple of years ago). * It hands over the customer's IBAN, which isn't really that much safer than a credit card number, since any merchant can trigger a SEPA Direct Debit using it. While you can trigger a chargeback, that requires you to actively monitor for fraudulent transactions, which a decent system wouldn't allow in the first place. * iDeal recurring payments are SEPA Direct Debit, with all their downsides, like taking days to confirm and a payment that fails due to insufficient funds in the customer's bank account resulting in a significant fee the merchant has to pay (and will probably pass on to the customer). And Wero has one of the worst, least informative websites I have ever seen. So it's really hard to figure out how it works, and what it supports.

hvb2 5mo ago
> It hands over the customer's IBAN, which isn't really that much safer than a credit card number, since any merchant can trigger a SEPA Direct Debit using it. Yes. And they would quickly lose their ability to process any payments. This is the exact same idea as how credit cards work. I don't see my IBAN as a secret, all my friends have it, as thats how they can send me money right to my account. > that requires you to actively monitor for fraudulent transactions, which a decent system wouldn't allow in the first place. So that rules out credit cards too, exact same system. I'm not familiar with pix mentioned in the other threads, but I am not familiar with any other system that is better
gpvos 5mo ago
No. The bank gives you a prominent notification when someone new gets a direct debit authorization for your account. And a merchant gets banned quickly when they misuse their debit authorization.
- upcoming-sesame 5mo ago

stronglikedan 5mo ago

> Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. That's basically Paypal and everyone still shits on them.

baq 5mo ago
paypal goes to great lengths to not be regulated as a bank, right?
swiftcoder 5mo ago
I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the actual PayPal payments flow. Most complaints are around seizing large balances due to suspected fraud...

gonzalohm 5mo ago

How does the website know which bank to redirect to?

jorisw 5mo ago
A dropdown is offered and the choice is remembered.

ErrorNoBrain 5mo ago

In Denmark i currently have to enter my card details but then, i get a popup where i have to enter my government issued ID username and scan a QR code from the related app (or enter from a 2fa token generator) Its annoying - but it feels quite secure

pelasaco 5mo ago

> I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. To be honest with multiple banks in Germany, without Wero, works like that too..

rwke 5mo ago

I recommend also have a look at how eCommerce is done in Chile, e.g. Transbank (WebPay), FinToc and others. Chile passed some very good FinTech legislation a few years ago.

bux93 5mo ago

Wero is super confusing. They're in the business of acquiring different methods (I don't even know if they always buy them outright or if they merge or they are just associated in some way), branding them ALL wero, and announcing that every payment in every channel will be rolled out SOON via wero, without ever offering specifics. So in The Netherlands wero is the new name of eCommerce payments, but in another country the new name for peer2peer. But no idea when p2p will launch in the Netherlands or when eCommerce will launch elsewhere. And if the existing services will be degraded when they are internationalized or merged.

jbverschoor 5mo ago
iDEAL is a killer name

tims33 5mo ago

iDeal is terrible for fraud. Consumers have to file a police report.

vanviegen 5mo ago
Indeed, it's terrible for fraud, as fraudsters are more likely to land behind bars.
- tims33 5mo ago
  Sure, but nowhere near as easy as filling a dispute on most other payment networks.

anal_reactor 5mo ago

> Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. For some reason, most Dutch people are convinced that the way things work in the Netherlands is the gold standard of how things should work in general, and are very hostile to solutions from other countries even if those solutions are better by any sensible metric. This is especially painful when a less developed country does leaps around NL in some aspect, like: 1. In Poland, you don't need to carry any documents with you because if policeman stops you, he has access the police database anyway. This includes driving license. 2. Even if you really want to show a document, you can do it gasp on your phone screen with the official government app. 3. Albert Heijn, the most popular supermarket chain, started accepting Visa and MasterCard in 2023. Not in 2003, in fucking 2023. 4. The adoption of paczkomaty is pathetic and when you have a delivery the expectation is that you're supposed to sit and wait the entire day at home. 5. iDeal launched 2005. Przelewy24 launched in 2004. They function in exactly the same way.

vanviegen 5mo ago
/rant? :-) 1. sounds nice though! But how do they verify that it's actually you? Just matching the photo manually? People are terrible at that. Or do they scan a fingerprint?
- anal_reactor 5mo ago
  > Just matching the photo manually? Yes. > People are terrible at that. "Imperfect" doesn't mean "terrible".
gpvos 5mo ago
3. Yeah, the previous system we used was just too cheap and efficient. Credit cards are still not common. 4. We're indeed a bit later than elsewhere, but there are many now.
Arcanum-XIII 5mo ago
In reply to .3: bancontact is nearly free per operation, but credit card were percentage heavy fee per transaction... That's why. And don't forget that the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg will prefer debit over credit for payment. Don't forget that the banking world is still under a lot of pressure from the various government (systemic risk assessment for example) and the stakeholders. It's a mess!

positron26 5mo ago

Making a note of this as an obvious technical alliance that should have existed for decades.

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

jorisw 5mo ago

I'm just not sure this directly competes with MC/Visa the way the article suggests. Didn't other EU countries already have something similar to iDEAL, as opposed to using credit cards? And now we're just consolidating them? Also, isn't this just about online payments? Who's going to pay for a coffee with either Wero or a credit card? AFAIK most EU consumers use direct debit cards for in-store payments (those countries where cash is no longer popular), be it via Apple Pay / Google Pay or not. Many a card of which by the way is directly or indirectly powered by Visa or Mastercard. At any rate, I don't see EuroPA or Wero break the 'hegemony' of Visa/MC the way this article claims.

vanviegen 5mo ago
> At any rate, I don't see EuroPA or Wero break the 'hegemony' of Visa/MC the way this article claims. You're right, it does not. But it's a significant step towards that goal. In-store payments are next on the agenda.
arlcode 5mo ago
As usual if there is reasonable competition this limits what the established actors can and will do.
efdee 5mo ago
I can only speak for my countries, but almost all payment terminals now have the option to scan a QR code with your mobile banking app to pay using Wero.
- jorisw 5mo ago
  That's good. Maybe I haven't seen it because direct debit via contactless (including Apple Pay) is faster, hence the default, where I am.

smirnoff_s 5mo ago

One thing that surprises me a lot is that in order to use Wero with my ING account, I have to give access to my contacts, which I ultimately am not going to do. I wonder how the European payment system can be so ignorant of their customers' privacy.

vanviegen 5mo ago
That has nothing to do with Wero, that's just your bank (ING) being stupid.

OptionOfT 5mo ago

What about authentication? I remember living in Belgium this was the case, and I always had to go and find that stupid physical barcode reader that I then had to hold against the screen, sign in with my debit card, PIN, enter the Euro amount, and then sign the transaction. Now that I live in the USA, I have my credit card number in Bitwarden, with expiration date and CVC. When I want to buy something, I let it autofill, and I don't have to verify and / or sign any transactions, bar high price ones (e.g. new $5k TV from Best Buy). And in terms of security? It's a credit card. I review my statement every month. If I didn't make the purchase I call the fraud department and the charge is removed. Last time I did that they didn't even ask me questions. I'd take Apple pay over the old(?) EU system.

locknitpicker 5mo ago
> I remember living in Belgium this was the case, and I always had to go and find that stupid physical barcode reader that I then had to hold against the screen, sign in with my debit card, PIN, enter the Euro amount, and then sign the transaction. I can't talk about Belgium but from what I've read, the dutch iDeal system requires nothing of the sort. It seems to act as a broker between your bank and the business, and a user's input is limited to pick the bank you use and approve the payment through your bank's app.
- gpvos 5mo ago
  When using the web interface some banks still offer the physical reader (which I prefer), but the banks are pushing hard to move to the phone app.
- nmd 5mo ago
  It used to be the case in the Netherlands with iDeal that you'd use your bank's e.dentifier for two factor auth (a physical device that you'd put your card into to get a code you could then put into the website to verify) - they replaced this with using your banking app sometime over the past 10 years.
dalben 5mo ago
The physical barcode reader is long gone in Belgium. Instead, you scan the QR code with your banking app (or on mobile, click a link to open the banking app), and either verify directly for amounts under €250 (?), or verify big amounts with ItsMe, another app, using Face ID.

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

Arrowmaster 5mo ago

Yesterday I was renewing my vehicle registration through my US states website. They offered a range of payment options using embedded options on the site. The direct bank account option had the lowest fee but when I tried it I was immediately scared of the security. They used a 3rd party bank account transfer provider that asked me what bank I used and looked like it was going to prompt me for my login info before it errored out and I moved on. Why can't the US have sane banking standards instead of this mess where you have to agree to a new 3rd party TOS and EULA for every purchase you want to make.

sandeepkd 5mo ago
What you see is a glued or patchwork to make the things work somehow with the existing state of things. Strictly speaking, a lot of banks do not offer API support and yet these third party tools are able to orchestrate a flow with is nothing less than man-in-the-middle-attack. The change if it happens at all, across the board to streamline can only from from government mandate. The industry is always going to go for finding some low cost option to achieve the target. The private players are always going to optimize for short term gains.
eastbayjake 5mo ago
When using a government website, you were intimidated by the security posture of... Plaid? (Genuine question, maybe this was some other provider but Plaid's aggregator tool is the most common place I see this pop up in real life for ACH)
- clickety_clack 5mo ago
  I personally have _no idea_ what the security posture of plaid is. I know they're a startup and made a bit of noise a few years ago, but if I was trying to buy something and a third party app popped up saying, "hey give me total access to withdraw directly from your bank account for a sec", why on earth would I say yes to that? It also seems to go against common security advice. "Never log into your back account if redirected by a website you sort of, but don't really trust, except sometimes its alright and it's up to you to tell the difference" is a terrible way to secure banking.

oliwarner 5mo ago

> should redirect me to my bank Eugh. The problem with that is that people don't verify they've actually been sent to their bank. An attacker will set up fake merchant sites, pay for Google ads to get your traffic, then have you log into your bank to pay for things. The more we normalise this, the quicker people will fall for it.

efdee 5mo ago
If they haven't been redirected to their bank, verifying with their mobile banking app using a QR code will not work.
- cortesoft 5mo ago
  So I have to get out my phone every time I use my credit card on my computer?
  - jbverschoor 5mo ago
    That’s why we don’t pay 3%+ on all transactions
    - cortesoft 5mo ago
      I get 3% cash back, though.
  - ptman 5mo ago
    Not credit card. Bank account. Webauthn/passkeys could also work for auth as they check the domain and can't be phished
- ars 5mo ago
  Can't the attacker just man-in-the-middle to the real bank, and show the QR code to the phone? Does the entire transaction take place on the phone? I don't think that's a good option.

Fnoord 5mo ago

It works very good and user-friendly, but iDeal had a disadvantage: chargebacks aren't possible. Whether Wero has the same issue, I do not know.

intuxikated 5mo ago

I thought it was an EU wide version of the belgian PayConiq

tedggh 5mo ago

Providing credit cards online even by phone for 20 years I have never had any issues, or known anyone who had issues. The few occasions my cards were compromised (all my own fault): a restaurant in Vienna pre Covid when cash was king in Europe, I insisted to use the card and the waiter took it inside lol. Got a 4000k cruise booked a few weeks later. Another time at an ATM in Brazil, I even noticed the suspects around the machines waiting and still went for it. A gas station ATM in NYC. That’s about it. Every time I called the bank and they refunded the money. So what I’m saying is security doesn’t seen to be a big issue in the US when it comes to online transactions with credit cards. Of course this is all subjective from my own experiences, but I’m kind of reckless using cards so I’m probably a good test subject.

achogcha 5mo ago
try getting a refund for fraudulent card charge in other countries except the US.... most other banks in LATAM/EU will not simply "refund" you the money.
adam_patarino 5mo ago
Individual experience is rarely an accurate representation of the broader system.
anonzzzies 5mo ago
But most people here don't want credit cards; risk of spending what you don't have just works differently over there outside mortgages. And then this new stuff is just objectively better: debit cards, even though you will get the money back mostly, makes it a hassle as you basically pay the lowest fees possible and never credit so fraud really sucks. And makes no sense; away with those cards; we do not need them anymore.

Bender 5mo ago

Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. That is really cool. I would like to see that system in the US given that my bank has IP restrictions for my account. I would also like the ability to pre-approve specific vendors for specific amounts within each bank as a native service all banks should support.

brightball 5mo ago

Does this work as a credit card system or for debit only?

WhyNotHugo 5mo ago

iDeal is superb and the most convenient payment method I've dealt with. Wero claims that they won't support paying through a browser, and that it will be tied to either Google or Apple, which seems like a huge step back from iDeal in its currents state. I wrote about this a few months back (including actual sources for their claims): https://whynothugo.nl/journal/2026/02/25/entrenching-american-corporations-into-local-european-payments/ https://whynothugo.nl/journal/2026/02/25/entrenching-america...