7 ms·

Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders. Will the principle stand, or

by gib444 7mo ago

Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders. Will the principle stand, or will it reveal that "USA is always right" is a common held belief

pjc50 7mo ago
USA claiming global jurisdiction over internet copyright matters goes back a long way. The case that "radicalized" me was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. , which was 25 years ago! The other such case establishing global financial jurisdiction, often cited by cryptocurrency adopters, is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Scheinberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Scheinberg - "Pokerstars". It's wild to read "the U.S. Congress passed UIGEA to extend existing gambling laws into cyberspace. The law made processing payments for online gambling a crime" in the light of how prevalent online gambling is now in the US mainstream, with sports betting, Kalshi, Polymarket and so on.
- reactordev 7mo ago
  The laws of the US have always been crafted to protect the interests of the elite, not the industrious.
  - mystraline 7mo ago
    Sure has. And even policing protects local monied interests. One case was someone who used their bike as their vehicle put a tracker on it. Was stolen. Tracker dutifully said where it was. Went to police station, they did absolutely shit. They were handed the bike receipt, token receipt, and realtime log. They DGAF. Years ago, worked at Walmart. They illegally edited my hours and thieved $100 and change. Put in police report, was told "CIVIL MATTER". But if you stole $100 from a register, off to jail you go. The laws protect monied interests and the elite, not the masses.
    - Aurornis 7mo ago
      > Years ago, worked at Walmart. They illegally edited my hours and thieved $100 and change. Put in police report, was told "CIVIL MATTER" Too late now, but for future reference for others: Wage theft reports should go to your state's department of labor. Every state is different but from what I've seen these offices have people who are hungry to catch real wage claims. Companies listen up when the state department of labor comes knocking.
      - reactordev 7mo ago
        used to be the case before the government was gutted.
        selectodude 7mo ago
        Fortunately this would be handled by state government, which is cold comfort if you live in the half of the country that is governed by people who hate you for having the audacity to be poor.
        elzbardico 7mo ago
        In places like Florida probably this department runs a blacklist of people who complained to be distributed across HRs.
        calfuris 7mo ago
        Florida got rid of that department in 2002.
        mystraline 7mo ago
        I live in Indiana. MAGA governor, supermajority republican house, senate, and judges. And, no, they do not care one bit about workers, renters, and the lower class. I'm solidly middle-upper class now. Home-morgage-r. Make remote 160k, which is amazing for the area. I also live in 1 of 3 liberalish areas. Amazingly, theyre worse in things like FLOCK, taxation, gun rights, speech rights, jail decency (opposition to ACLU), and other amendment rights. I dont sit in their pet issues. I dont matter. I likely won't ever matter.
- Aurornis 7mo ago
  This isn't a unique USA thing. Many countries will allow lawsuits against international entities if you can demonstrate harm within the jurisdiction. Practically speaking it doesn't matter much when small countries do this because it doesn't mean much, other than maybe the owners of the country can't travel there any more. It hits headlines when the USA does it because being barred from traveling to the USA or working with US companies causes a lot of problems.
SpicyLemonZest 7mo ago
I don't understand why it makes you think of that, this is a completely different situation. If Anna's Archive were an upstanding site run by a known operator in compliance with UK law, I would definitely be highly critical of this ruling. But it's actually an anonymously run site that violates most countries' copyright laws and is blocked in the UK.
- GolfPopper 7mo ago
  >an upstanding site run by a known operator Like Open AI?[1] Or the United States government?[2] While this may not be what you intend, it seems you're suggesting that "upstanding" and "known" parties (i.e. participants with wealth and influence) ought to be above the law. 1. https://www.artificialintelligence-news.com/news/study-claims-openai-trains-ai-models-copyrighted-data/ https://www.artificialintelligence-news.com/news/study-claim... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_copyrighted_works_by_the_second_Trump_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_copyrighted_works_by_th...
  - SpicyLemonZest 7mo ago
    I don't see what wealth and influence have to do with it. I think that if Website X is owned by a resident of, operated within the borders of, and complies with the laws of Country A, Country B should not try to bully the operator into changing the site. They can order domestic ISPs to block it if they want, or they can not do that if their citizens value Internet freedom. If the site doesn't comply with the laws of Country A, or if the website operator hides so nobody can figure out which country is Country A, then it's an entirely different story.
Aurornis 7mo ago
> Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders The UK and US aren't unique in this regard. The concept of piracy has been commonly treated as a topic with universal jurisdiction that expands beyond borders, going back to the time when piracy meant people on boats in international waters. I'll be honest that I don't know if or how those laws correspond to digital piracy, but countries have long considered international piracy to be something their domestic courts can go after. Practically speaking you can always choose to ignore it if you don't have offices or assets in that country and you're okay with never traveling there for the rest of your life. You also have to avoid countries with mutual extradition agreements because many countries will offer to extradite for certain crimes with the expectation that the other country will return the favor. The UK age verification enforcement isn't a good comparison because the UK's overreach extends even to instances where UK citizens are geoblocked. Trying to enforce your country's laws on an operation in a different country which does not even serve your country is something else. For a recent example look at the online depression forum that is being threatened by the UK even though they've geoblocked UK users - Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders
- cwillu 7mo ago
  Please don't equivocate “the concept of piracy” as if copyright infringement has any relation to kidnapping and murder.
  - fluffybucktsnek 7mo ago
    I think you're missing the point. Piracy, "digital" or real, has always been something that extended beyond borders. They are alleging this is probably due to governments doing said equivocation, in digital piracy case's, although I think it has more to do with the international treaties.
    - cwillu 7mo ago
      No, I'm certain that you are: “piracy” doesn't exist as a coherent umbrella term that contains both naval piracy and copyright infringement, and the latter has certainly not “always” been enforced beyond borders.
stuffn 7mo ago
Copying intellectual property is not piracy. This term was co-opted by big industries to insure the cash cattle continue to pay. Piracy has a very specific sting to it. This was a deliberate choice. We don't call burglary "piracy", yet if we relax the definition enough to include IP theft, it is also piracy. GabeN also had the wrong take in that it's a "supply problem" or whatever nonsense he said. GabeN is in fact an industry plant and owns one of the strictest IP protection platforms on the market. Why people buy on steam when they can ban you for almost anything and take everything you've ever rented (you dont own anything on steam). Thousands of dollars of games gone with a ban. In any normal world this would be tantamount to grand theft and a small business owner would actually face real prison time for it. You can't "steal" something that isn't gone when it's stolen. If I walked into a house, took a necklace, and left an exact unaltered copy I'd at best be charged with a lesser crime that didn't include theft. But if you copy movies/music/software you're liable to have your entire life absolutely financially and possibly criminally ruined. The government of the US is hardly a government for the people, by the people. It's strictly designed to enrich the few and consume "human resources".
- patrickmcnamara 7mo ago
  I never understand these positions. How do authors make money selling books if someone can legally copy it and give it out for free?
  - compass_copium 7mo ago
    I dunno, the same way they did for decades with public libraries?
  - newer_vienna 7mo ago
    Commissions, grants, advertisements, sponsorships, donations, teaching... There's already an enormous ecosystem of artists and authors who work outside of the copyright realm (blog writers, substackers, social media artists, youtube creators, soundcloud rappers) and who make money enough to pursue their passion and whose business model would be totally unchanged if copyright were abolished entirely tomorrow. When their work is downloaded or shared or copied or linked or edited or remixed they appreciate it and see it as a multiplication of their artistic impact.
MarsIronPI 7mo ago
I've been against the UK trying to shove its regulations everywhere and I'm just as against the US doing it.
redsocksfan45 7mo ago
[dead]

by gib444 7mo ago

pjc50 7mo ago

USA claiming global jurisdiction over internet copyright matters goes back a long way. The case that "radicalized" me was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. , which was 25 years ago! The other such case establishing global financial jurisdiction, often cited by cryptocurrency adopters, is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Scheinberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Scheinberg - "Pokerstars". It's wild to read "the U.S. Congress passed UIGEA to extend existing gambling laws into cyberspace. The law made processing payments for online gambling a crime" in the light of how prevalent online gambling is now in the US mainstream, with sports betting, Kalshi, Polymarket and so on.

reactordev 7mo ago
The laws of the US have always been crafted to protect the interests of the elite, not the industrious.
- mystraline 7mo ago
  Sure has. And even policing protects local monied interests. One case was someone who used their bike as their vehicle put a tracker on it. Was stolen. Tracker dutifully said where it was. Went to police station, they did absolutely shit. They were handed the bike receipt, token receipt, and realtime log. They DGAF. Years ago, worked at Walmart. They illegally edited my hours and thieved $100 and change. Put in police report, was told "CIVIL MATTER". But if you stole $100 from a register, off to jail you go. The laws protect monied interests and the elite, not the masses.
  - Aurornis 7mo ago
    > Years ago, worked at Walmart. They illegally edited my hours and thieved $100 and change. Put in police report, was told "CIVIL MATTER" Too late now, but for future reference for others: Wage theft reports should go to your state's department of labor. Every state is different but from what I've seen these offices have people who are hungry to catch real wage claims. Companies listen up when the state department of labor comes knocking.
    - reactordev 7mo ago
      used to be the case before the government was gutted.
      - selectodude 7mo ago
        Fortunately this would be handled by state government, which is cold comfort if you live in the half of the country that is governed by people who hate you for having the audacity to be poor.
        elzbardico 7mo ago
        In places like Florida probably this department runs a blacklist of people who complained to be distributed across HRs.
        calfuris 7mo ago
        Florida got rid of that department in 2002.
        mystraline 7mo ago
        I live in Indiana. MAGA governor, supermajority republican house, senate, and judges. And, no, they do not care one bit about workers, renters, and the lower class. I'm solidly middle-upper class now. Home-morgage-r. Make remote 160k, which is amazing for the area. I also live in 1 of 3 liberalish areas. Amazingly, theyre worse in things like FLOCK, taxation, gun rights, speech rights, jail decency (opposition to ACLU), and other amendment rights. I dont sit in their pet issues. I dont matter. I likely won't ever matter.
Aurornis 7mo ago
This isn't a unique USA thing. Many countries will allow lawsuits against international entities if you can demonstrate harm within the jurisdiction. Practically speaking it doesn't matter much when small countries do this because it doesn't mean much, other than maybe the owners of the country can't travel there any more. It hits headlines when the USA does it because being barred from traveling to the USA or working with US companies causes a lot of problems.

SpicyLemonZest 7mo ago

I don't understand why it makes you think of that, this is a completely different situation. If Anna's Archive were an upstanding site run by a known operator in compliance with UK law, I would definitely be highly critical of this ruling. But it's actually an anonymously run site that violates most countries' copyright laws and is blocked in the UK.

GolfPopper 7mo ago
>an upstanding site run by a known operator Like Open AI?[1] Or the United States government?[2] While this may not be what you intend, it seems you're suggesting that "upstanding" and "known" parties (i.e. participants with wealth and influence) ought to be above the law. 1. https://www.artificialintelligence-news.com/news/study-claims-openai-trains-ai-models-copyrighted-data/ https://www.artificialintelligence-news.com/news/study-claim... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_copyrighted_works_by_the_second_Trump_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_copyrighted_works_by_th...
- SpicyLemonZest 7mo ago
  I don't see what wealth and influence have to do with it. I think that if Website X is owned by a resident of, operated within the borders of, and complies with the laws of Country A, Country B should not try to bully the operator into changing the site. They can order domestic ISPs to block it if they want, or they can not do that if their citizens value Internet freedom. If the site doesn't comply with the laws of Country A, or if the website operator hides so nobody can figure out which country is Country A, then it's an entirely different story.

Aurornis 7mo ago

> Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders The UK and US aren't unique in this regard. The concept of piracy has been commonly treated as a topic with universal jurisdiction that expands beyond borders, going back to the time when piracy meant people on boats in international waters. I'll be honest that I don't know if or how those laws correspond to digital piracy, but countries have long considered international piracy to be something their domestic courts can go after. Practically speaking you can always choose to ignore it if you don't have offices or assets in that country and you're okay with never traveling there for the rest of your life. You also have to avoid countries with mutual extradition agreements because many countries will offer to extradite for certain crimes with the expectation that the other country will return the favor. The UK age verification enforcement isn't a good comparison because the UK's overreach extends even to instances where UK citizens are geoblocked. Trying to enforce your country's laws on an operation in a different country which does not even serve your country is something else. For a recent example look at the online depression forum that is being threatened by the UK even though they've geoblocked UK users - Immediately makes me think of the vitriol here on HN for the UK trying to enforce their age verification law outside their borders

cwillu 7mo ago
Please don't equivocate “the concept of piracy” as if copyright infringement has any relation to kidnapping and murder.
- fluffybucktsnek 7mo ago
  I think you're missing the point. Piracy, "digital" or real, has always been something that extended beyond borders. They are alleging this is probably due to governments doing said equivocation, in digital piracy case's, although I think it has more to do with the international treaties.
  - cwillu 7mo ago
    No, I'm certain that you are: “piracy” doesn't exist as a coherent umbrella term that contains both naval piracy and copyright infringement, and the latter has certainly not “always” been enforced beyond borders.

stuffn 7mo ago

Copying intellectual property is not piracy. This term was co-opted by big industries to insure the cash cattle continue to pay. Piracy has a very specific sting to it. This was a deliberate choice. We don't call burglary "piracy", yet if we relax the definition enough to include IP theft, it is also piracy. GabeN also had the wrong take in that it's a "supply problem" or whatever nonsense he said. GabeN is in fact an industry plant and owns one of the strictest IP protection platforms on the market. Why people buy on steam when they can ban you for almost anything and take everything you've ever rented (you dont own anything on steam). Thousands of dollars of games gone with a ban. In any normal world this would be tantamount to grand theft and a small business owner would actually face real prison time for it. You can't "steal" something that isn't gone when it's stolen. If I walked into a house, took a necklace, and left an exact unaltered copy I'd at best be charged with a lesser crime that didn't include theft. But if you copy movies/music/software you're liable to have your entire life absolutely financially and possibly criminally ruined. The government of the US is hardly a government for the people, by the people. It's strictly designed to enrich the few and consume "human resources".

patrickmcnamara 7mo ago
I never understand these positions. How do authors make money selling books if someone can legally copy it and give it out for free?
- compass_copium 7mo ago
  I dunno, the same way they did for decades with public libraries?
- newer_vienna 7mo ago
  Commissions, grants, advertisements, sponsorships, donations, teaching... There's already an enormous ecosystem of artists and authors who work outside of the copyright realm (blog writers, substackers, social media artists, youtube creators, soundcloud rappers) and who make money enough to pursue their passion and whose business model would be totally unchanged if copyright were abolished entirely tomorrow. When their work is downloaded or shared or copied or linked or edited or remixed they appreciate it and see it as a multiplication of their artistic impact.

MarsIronPI 7mo ago

I've been against the UK trying to shove its regulations everywhere and I'm just as against the US doing it.

redsocksfan45 7mo ago

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