6 ms·

> Hydrogen is such a terrible idea it was never getting off the ground. It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. I

> Hydrogen is such a terrible idea it was never getting off the ground. It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Ironically, the place hydrogen might work is airplanes where the energy density of batteries doesn't work.

breve 8mo ago
> It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Of course they can. Toyota sells BEVs. As time goes on BEVs will become a greater percentage of their sales.
- formerly_proven 8mo ago
  Toyota sells bad EVs and was the last OEM to offer one. It’s the most anti-EV OEM by far and engages/engaged in the most EV FUD.
  - Spooky23 8mo ago
    The bZ4X was particularly bad. Toyota adopted a combo of NIH syndrome and DNGAF. They didn’t anticipate cold weather. The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold and the resale value of it tanked.
    - aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
      They’re also just phenomenally ugly cars.
      - dcrazy 8mo ago
        It shares the same ugly design language as much of Toyota’s lineup.
    - magicalhippo 8mo ago
      > The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold Here in Norway Toyota was invited to include the bZ4X in this years winter range test[1], but they declined. Suzuki entered with their eVitara model, which is a "technological twin" of the Toyota Urban Cruiser. The Urban Cruiser really disappointed in a regular test performed in cold weather[2]. So perhaps unsurprisingly, the Suzuki eVitara was by far the worst in the winter range test, with the least range overall and more than 40% reduction compared to its WLTP range, among the worst in the test. [1]: https://www.tek.no/nyheter/nyhet/i/d4mMkA/verdens-stoerste-rekkeviddetest-gjennomfoert-disse-gjorde-det-best-i-sprengkulda https://www.tek.no/nyheter/nyhet/i/d4mMkA/verdens-stoerste-r... [2]: https://www.tek.no/test/i/OkQAwE/toyota-urban-cruiser https://www.tek.no/test/i/OkQAwE/toyota-urban-cruiser
  - some-guy 8mo ago
    I have only purchased Toyota vehicles (currently in the market for an EV) and it baffles me that Dodge created a Charger in EV form and Toyota hasn’t made even an EV Corolla or Camry.
    - breve 8mo ago
      That's essentially the bZ3. But a Corolla branded BEV will eventually happen: https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/toyotas-best-selling-car-electric/ https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/toyotas-best-selling-car-elec...
    - lostlogin 8mo ago
      An electric Corolla or Camry is my ultimate. I hate driving. I want an appliance that just works. The Corolla and Camry were this for petrol. I love my Leaf but it isn’t a Carolla. What’s with the turning circle on the Leaf?
    - freetime2 8mo ago
      > it baffles me that Dodge created a Charger in EV form and Toyota hasn’t made even an EV Corolla or Camry Dodge's Charger EV has been a sales flop [1] and pretty much universally panned by critics as something that nobody asked for. The Camry and Corolla were the best-selling sedan and compact sedan of 2025 [2]. I think this shows that Toyota is listening to what Corolla and Camry drivers want - something inexpensive and reliable to get them to and from work every day without issue. Some day Toyota will make an EV sedan. I think their 2026 bZ Woodland [3] shows that they are starting to figure out how make compelling EVs. And Toyota's EV strategy seems pretty reasonable to me overall - their delays to develop a decent EV don't seem to put them under threat from any legacy automakers. They are being threatened by Chinese EV makers, but so is Tesla - so even a huge head start likely wouldn't have benefited Toyota much either in that regard. [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69927938/dodge-charger-daytona-2025-sales/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69927938/dodge-charger-da... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars-2025/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars... [3] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-electric-station-wagon-the-2026-toyota-bz-woodland/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-ele...
  - freetime2 8mo ago
    > Toyota sells bad EVs The 2026 bZ Woodland [1] looks pretty nice in my opinion. [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-electric-station-wagon-the-2026-toyota-bz-woodland/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-ele...
  - badc0ffee 8mo ago
    And yet they had one of the first hybrids (although not a plug-in hybrid) in the Prius.
    - seanmcdirmid 8mo ago
      Honda also was early in hybrids, but they like Toyota are also late on EVs.
      - formerly_proven 8mo ago
        The difference is probably philosophical. A (non-phev) hybrid is primarily an ICE car in every way. Building hybrids is building ICE cars with a little extra. Building EVs is different.
        seanmcdirmid 8mo ago
        Honda and Toyota invested a lot in hybrid tech, they probably want to milk that investment more and the hydrogen distraction kept them from also investing in BEV tech. China was basically starting a car industry from scratch so didn’t have those sunk costs to worry about.
- dehrmann 8mo ago
  The bZ4X? 10+ years after the Nissan Leaf?
  - breve 8mo ago
    And the bZ3, bZ5, bZ7, bZ3X, bZ Woodland, C-HR+, the Lexus RZ, and soon the Hilux EV: https://electrek.co/2026/01/09/toyota-electric-pickup-images/ https://electrek.co/2026/01/09/toyota-electric-pickup-images...
    - bdcravens 8mo ago
      A list of cars that aren't available for purchase yet doesn't disprove the argument that Toyota is late to the game.
      - breve 8mo ago
        They are available for purchase. Toyota is in the game of selling cars. Toyota has been the best selling automaker for the last six years straight. Toyota had record sales last year: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-retains-top-auto-crown-2025-with-record-sales-2026-01-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota... It's possible that Toyota understands the car business better than you do.
        bdcravens 8mo ago
        All of the bz* models you listed are Chinese models, and while the Woodland and C-HR are listed on their US website, they aren't really available for purchase (though I did find one C-HR if I'm willing to drive 500 miles to buy it). Obviously the world auto market is greater than the US, but the US is the leading market for Toyota in terms of total units sold, so it's odd to me that if I drive to the Toyota dealership 10 minutes from my house, their game of selling cars only leaves me with one model to purchase if I'm committed to buying a BEV.
        breve 8mo ago
satvikpendem 8mo ago
What does this mean? They have electric vehicles too.
qingcharles 8mo ago
The energy density doesn't work for now. Everybody hoping for that breakthrough, and battery aircraft are moving into certain sectors (drone delivery, air taxis etc).
- aunty_helen 8mo ago
  One of the trade offs is that engines are actually ridiculously heavy. Compact, extreme high power electric motors are starting to be commercialised. But also, fuel burns so you lose weight as you’re flying whereas batteries stay the same. Electric aviation is interesting but as someone who knows a bit about the industry, biofuels make more sense here.
- Lerc 8mo ago
  Structural batteries were supposed to be the solution where the density wasn't so important. I don't really have a good understanding of the ration of fuel weight to structural weight in existing aircraft though.
  - nomel 8mo ago
    casing is around 25% of the mass of a cylindrical cell, with the rest being actual battery bits that can't have any stresses applied. is 25% weight saving that significant?
    - Lerc 8mo ago
      The idea is that you build the aircraft frame out of the battery. If you can get it to work (a big if) you get to subtract the weight of the old frame before you make calculate the pseudo-density,
      - nomel 8mo ago
        I understand, but that's my point. Currently the case is 25% of the battery. Only the case can be removed. If you move the fragile guts of the battery into the frame (in no way reducing their mass or the frame's), you're effectively turning that 25% case to 0%. So, the most you can save is 25% battery weight. That doesn't really nudge the power density needle all that much, especially when you consider that you don't throw batteries out the back as their energy is depleted, as you do with fuels.
nandomrumber 8mo ago
Has the hydrogen storage problem been solved yet? Last time I checked it needs to be stored in cryo / pressure vessel and it also leaks through steel and ruins its structural properties in the process.
- dogma1138 8mo ago
  There are some innovation like hydrogen paste but it’s not going to be useful for a combustion engine cycle.
  - eptcyka 8mo ago
    The Mirai does not combust hydrogen.
- idiotsecant 8mo ago
  We store hydrogen all the time for industrial processes. It's not some super science, it's just expensive.
  - nandomrumber 8mo ago
    We do? Where? Using what fabrication technologies. I’ve worked mostly in or adjacent to manufacturing and primary industry. As far as I’m aware, the majority of hydrogen production is use on site, and mostly for ammonia production. There isn’t really much in the way of hydrogen storage and transportation, it’s mostly used where it’s generated. And if we use expensive as a proxy for heavy / energy intensive, which it is in the case of hydrogen, that goes a long way to preclude it from anything like being useful for transportation.
    - idiotsecant 8mo ago
      There is hydrogen all over the place in exactly where you'd expect to see it: petroleum refineries and petrochemical process plants. The metallurgy of handling and storing hydrogen is well understood and has been for a long time. You just have to use alloys resistant to hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen is squirrelly - it doesn't like to stay put but you can make it stay put long enough to make it useful. When you are specifying valving or piping in a refinery one of the big things you have to find out is how much hydrogen is in the process because a lot of stuff in a refinery has at least some hydrogen and it will destroy common alloys.
Plasmoid 8mo ago
We're actually not that far off. Right now, liquid fuels have about 10x the energy density of batteries. Which absolutely kills it for anything outside of extreme short hop flights. But electric engines are about 3x more efficient than liquid fuel engines. So now we're only 3x-4x of a direct replacement. That means we are not hugely far off. Boeing's next major plane won't run on batteries, but the one afterwards definitely will.
- capitainenemo 8mo ago
  Well, there's also burning regular fuel in a fuel cell, a FCEV. That doubles the efficiencies over ICE, so I guess that bumps it back up to 8x away? Given the great energy densities and stability in transport of hydrocarbons, there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources, so that could be a solution if we don't manage to increase battery densities by another order of magnitude.
  - WalterBright 8mo ago
    > there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources I didn't realize that a "green" carbon atom is different from a regular carbon atom. They both result in CO2 when burned.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
      And, the two major byproducts of burning hydrocarbons are water and carbon dioxide. Literally essential plant nutrients, essential for life. Tangentially related, the 2022 Hunga Tonga–Hunga Haʻapai volcanic eruption ejected so much water vapour in to the upper atmosphere, it was estimated to have ongoing climate forcing effects for up to 10 years. Water vapour is a stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. And we heard precisely nothing about that in the media other than some science specific sources at the time and nothing on an ongoing basis. From Wikipedia: The underwater explosion also sent 146 million tons of water from the South Pacific Ocean into the stratosphere. The amount of water vapor ejected was 10 percent of the stratosphere's typical stock. It was enough to temporarily warm the surface of Earth. It is estimated that an excess of water vapour should remain for 5–10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga_Ha%CA%BBapai_eruption_and_tsunami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga...
beAbU 8mo ago
The Mirai is a fuel cell EV. There is no engine. Not sure what your point is regarding engines?
WalterBright 8mo ago
> the place hydrogen might work is airplanes where the energy density of batteries doesn't work. How is that going to work? Cryogenic liquid hydrogen? High pressure tanks? Those don't seem practical for an airplane. What does work for airplanes is to use carbon atoms that hydrogen atoms can attach to. Then, it becomes a liquid that can easily be stored at room temperature in lightweight tanks. Very high energy density, and energy per weight! (I think it's called kerosene.)
- TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
  Diesel, kerosene, rocket propelled RP1, and fuel oil / bunker fuel in the case of cargo ships. It’s not a coincidence that where easy of handling, storage safety, and high energy density are needed everything seems to converge on compression ignition medium to long chain liquid hydrocarbons.
- saalweachter 8mo ago
  What if you just, like, put the hydrogen in a big balloon?
  - westmeal 8mo ago
    Dude so like, one time some guy did that and like the entire thing just blew up bro. Seriously knockered.
    - WalterBright 8mo ago
      Hydrogen airships are unfairly demonized. Airplanes burn and blow up, too - we've just learned over time how to minimize that risk. The main problem with an airship is they are vulnerable to weather.
dev1ycan 8mo ago
They are just too much in bed with big oil to want to switch, instead they spend rnd on hydrogen in order to mess up with renewables on purpose.
- Braxton1980 8mo ago
  Hydrogen only makes electric vehicles look good and the only alternative. In fact, if this purposeful which I doubt, it probably helped stopped other companies from making hydrogen
Braxton1980 8mo ago
It might also be because the Japanese government works very hard to have full employment and EVs require less labor.
hogehoge51 8mo ago
WTF , you are commenting about FCEV - these things dont have engines! The strategy clearly stated by Akio Toyoda is multiple power train technology. You can listen to his interviews on the subject, some are in Japanese, but as you have stated a clear and unambiguous interpretation of Toyota's policy I will assume you have that fluency. (Automotive OEMs are assemblers, the parts come from the supply chain starting with Tier 1 suppliers. In that sense TMC does not do "making engines", but possibly the nuance and consequences here of whether not it "wraps it's head" to "makes things", vs if it has the capability to specify, manufacture distribute something at scale with a globally localized supply chain AND adjust to consumer demand/resource availability changes 5 years after the design start - in this context i ask you, can you "wrap your head" around the latest models that are coming out in every power train technology fcev, (p)hev to bev)
- WarmWash 8mo ago
  Toyota has had this hydrogen bug since the early 90's. What's that old meme? Stop trying to make ____ happen, it's not going to happen.
  - hogehoge51 8mo ago
    The point I was trying to make was I'm not sure it was ever about making something happen completely, but being prepared on all fronts for whatever the outcome is. Kaizen and JIT are not good for revolutionary change. So I expect by bootstrapping different options early enough they can act on real market pressure once the condition to accurately assess the evidence is available. For hydrogen getting to that point was a multi decade lead time. I suspect most western commentary on this topic comes from people not understanding both how numerical/empirical based Toyota are, how self aware of their potential weaknesses they are, plus the ability of a Japanese business to hold to a multi decade hedging initiative.
api 8mo ago
Biofuel makes more sense for airplanes. No conversion even necessary. You could fuel up a 737 with properly formulated biofuel and fly it now, though a lot of validation would be needed to be generally allowed especially for passenger flights. If we want easier to produce biofuels then LNG aviation makes sense. We are flying LNG rockets already. You could go ahead and design LNG planes now and they’d emit less carbon even on fossil natural gas. Existing turbofan jet engines could be retrofitted to burn methane. Biogas is incredibly easy to make to the point that there are pretty easy designs online for off grid biogas digesters you can use to run a generator. You can literally just turn a barrel upside down in a slightly larger barrel full of water, shit, and food waste, attach a hose to it, and as the inner barrel floats up it fills with biogas under mild pressure that you can plug right into things. May need to dry it for some applications since it might contain some water vapor but that’s not hard. Industrial scale biogas is basically the same principle. Just large scale, usually using sewage and farm waste. LNG rockets also mean “green” space launch is entirely possible.
- lstodd 8mo ago
  LNG aviation does not make any more sense than H2 aviation. Even LPG does not make any sense since you neither can haul 16 bar fuel tanks, nor can you realistically maintain temperature for 1-2atm pressure. And any leak is not 'oh. look, a kerosene stain on tarmac', it's ready-made fuel-air explosion. On the plus side we would be able to retire airport fire engines because they would never be able to get to a crash before it completely burns out.
  - fuzzfactor 8mo ago
    You can't get much better than ready-made, for rocketry. As if LNG is effectively more dense in flight than ordinary LPG, which doesn't need to be cryogenic to handle. Armchair fuel experts do still provide food for thought though ;)
vkou 8mo ago
> It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Which is also the reason why its plug-in hybrids are so reliable, despite being dramatically more complex than either an EV or an ICE. Toyota is very good at making engines, and it would be insane to throw away all that expertise to deliver a half-assed new product.

breve 8mo ago

> It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Of course they can. Toyota sells BEVs. As time goes on BEVs will become a greater percentage of their sales.

formerly_proven 8mo ago
Toyota sells bad EVs and was the last OEM to offer one. It’s the most anti-EV OEM by far and engages/engaged in the most EV FUD.
- Spooky23 8mo ago
  The bZ4X was particularly bad. Toyota adopted a combo of NIH syndrome and DNGAF. They didn’t anticipate cold weather. The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold and the resale value of it tanked.
  - aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
    They’re also just phenomenally ugly cars.
    - dcrazy 8mo ago
      It shares the same ugly design language as much of Toyota’s lineup.
  - magicalhippo 8mo ago
    > The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold Here in Norway Toyota was invited to include the bZ4X in this years winter range test[1], but they declined. Suzuki entered with their eVitara model, which is a "technological twin" of the Toyota Urban Cruiser. The Urban Cruiser really disappointed in a regular test performed in cold weather[2]. So perhaps unsurprisingly, the Suzuki eVitara was by far the worst in the winter range test, with the least range overall and more than 40% reduction compared to its WLTP range, among the worst in the test. [1]: https://www.tek.no/nyheter/nyhet/i/d4mMkA/verdens-stoerste-rekkeviddetest-gjennomfoert-disse-gjorde-det-best-i-sprengkulda https://www.tek.no/nyheter/nyhet/i/d4mMkA/verdens-stoerste-r... [2]: https://www.tek.no/test/i/OkQAwE/toyota-urban-cruiser https://www.tek.no/test/i/OkQAwE/toyota-urban-cruiser
- some-guy 8mo ago
  I have only purchased Toyota vehicles (currently in the market for an EV) and it baffles me that Dodge created a Charger in EV form and Toyota hasn’t made even an EV Corolla or Camry.
  - breve 8mo ago
    That's essentially the bZ3. But a Corolla branded BEV will eventually happen: https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/toyotas-best-selling-car-electric/ https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/toyotas-best-selling-car-elec...
  - lostlogin 8mo ago
    An electric Corolla or Camry is my ultimate. I hate driving. I want an appliance that just works. The Corolla and Camry were this for petrol. I love my Leaf but it isn’t a Carolla. What’s with the turning circle on the Leaf?
  - freetime2 8mo ago
    > it baffles me that Dodge created a Charger in EV form and Toyota hasn’t made even an EV Corolla or Camry Dodge's Charger EV has been a sales flop [1] and pretty much universally panned by critics as something that nobody asked for. The Camry and Corolla were the best-selling sedan and compact sedan of 2025 [2]. I think this shows that Toyota is listening to what Corolla and Camry drivers want - something inexpensive and reliable to get them to and from work every day without issue. Some day Toyota will make an EV sedan. I think their 2026 bZ Woodland [3] shows that they are starting to figure out how make compelling EVs. And Toyota's EV strategy seems pretty reasonable to me overall - their delays to develop a decent EV don't seem to put them under threat from any legacy automakers. They are being threatened by Chinese EV makers, but so is Tesla - so even a huge head start likely wouldn't have benefited Toyota much either in that regard. [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69927938/dodge-charger-daytona-2025-sales/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69927938/dodge-charger-da... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars-2025/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars... [3] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-electric-station-wagon-the-2026-toyota-bz-woodland/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-ele...
- freetime2 8mo ago
  > Toyota sells bad EVs The 2026 bZ Woodland [1] looks pretty nice in my opinion. [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-electric-station-wagon-the-2026-toyota-bz-woodland/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-ele...
- badc0ffee 8mo ago
  And yet they had one of the first hybrids (although not a plug-in hybrid) in the Prius.
  - seanmcdirmid 8mo ago
    Honda also was early in hybrids, but they like Toyota are also late on EVs.
    - formerly_proven 8mo ago
      The difference is probably philosophical. A (non-phev) hybrid is primarily an ICE car in every way. Building hybrids is building ICE cars with a little extra. Building EVs is different.
      - seanmcdirmid 8mo ago
        Honda and Toyota invested a lot in hybrid tech, they probably want to milk that investment more and the hydrogen distraction kept them from also investing in BEV tech. China was basically starting a car industry from scratch so didn’t have those sunk costs to worry about.
dehrmann 8mo ago
The bZ4X? 10+ years after the Nissan Leaf?
- breve 8mo ago
  And the bZ3, bZ5, bZ7, bZ3X, bZ Woodland, C-HR+, the Lexus RZ, and soon the Hilux EV: https://electrek.co/2026/01/09/toyota-electric-pickup-images/ https://electrek.co/2026/01/09/toyota-electric-pickup-images...
  - bdcravens 8mo ago
    A list of cars that aren't available for purchase yet doesn't disprove the argument that Toyota is late to the game.
    - breve 8mo ago
      They are available for purchase. Toyota is in the game of selling cars. Toyota has been the best selling automaker for the last six years straight. Toyota had record sales last year: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-retains-top-auto-crown-2025-with-record-sales-2026-01-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota... It's possible that Toyota understands the car business better than you do.
      - bdcravens 8mo ago
        All of the bz* models you listed are Chinese models, and while the Woodland and C-HR are listed on their US website, they aren't really available for purchase (though I did find one C-HR if I'm willing to drive 500 miles to buy it). Obviously the world auto market is greater than the US, but the US is the leading market for Toyota in terms of total units sold, so it's odd to me that if I drive to the Toyota dealership 10 minutes from my house, their game of selling cars only leaves me with one model to purchase if I'm committed to buying a BEV.
        breve 8mo ago

satvikpendem 8mo ago

What does this mean? They have electric vehicles too.

qingcharles 8mo ago

The energy density doesn't work for now. Everybody hoping for that breakthrough, and battery aircraft are moving into certain sectors (drone delivery, air taxis etc).

aunty_helen 8mo ago
One of the trade offs is that engines are actually ridiculously heavy. Compact, extreme high power electric motors are starting to be commercialised. But also, fuel burns so you lose weight as you’re flying whereas batteries stay the same. Electric aviation is interesting but as someone who knows a bit about the industry, biofuels make more sense here.
Lerc 8mo ago
Structural batteries were supposed to be the solution where the density wasn't so important. I don't really have a good understanding of the ration of fuel weight to structural weight in existing aircraft though.
- nomel 8mo ago
  casing is around 25% of the mass of a cylindrical cell, with the rest being actual battery bits that can't have any stresses applied. is 25% weight saving that significant?
  - Lerc 8mo ago
    The idea is that you build the aircraft frame out of the battery. If you can get it to work (a big if) you get to subtract the weight of the old frame before you make calculate the pseudo-density,
    - nomel 8mo ago
      I understand, but that's my point. Currently the case is 25% of the battery. Only the case can be removed. If you move the fragile guts of the battery into the frame (in no way reducing their mass or the frame's), you're effectively turning that 25% case to 0%. So, the most you can save is 25% battery weight. That doesn't really nudge the power density needle all that much, especially when you consider that you don't throw batteries out the back as their energy is depleted, as you do with fuels.

nandomrumber 8mo ago

Has the hydrogen storage problem been solved yet? Last time I checked it needs to be stored in cryo / pressure vessel and it also leaks through steel and ruins its structural properties in the process.

dogma1138 8mo ago
There are some innovation like hydrogen paste but it’s not going to be useful for a combustion engine cycle.
- eptcyka 8mo ago
  The Mirai does not combust hydrogen.
idiotsecant 8mo ago
We store hydrogen all the time for industrial processes. It's not some super science, it's just expensive.
- nandomrumber 8mo ago
  We do? Where? Using what fabrication technologies. I’ve worked mostly in or adjacent to manufacturing and primary industry. As far as I’m aware, the majority of hydrogen production is use on site, and mostly for ammonia production. There isn’t really much in the way of hydrogen storage and transportation, it’s mostly used where it’s generated. And if we use expensive as a proxy for heavy / energy intensive, which it is in the case of hydrogen, that goes a long way to preclude it from anything like being useful for transportation.
  - idiotsecant 8mo ago
    There is hydrogen all over the place in exactly where you'd expect to see it: petroleum refineries and petrochemical process plants. The metallurgy of handling and storing hydrogen is well understood and has been for a long time. You just have to use alloys resistant to hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen is squirrelly - it doesn't like to stay put but you can make it stay put long enough to make it useful. When you are specifying valving or piping in a refinery one of the big things you have to find out is how much hydrogen is in the process because a lot of stuff in a refinery has at least some hydrogen and it will destroy common alloys.

Plasmoid 8mo ago

We're actually not that far off. Right now, liquid fuels have about 10x the energy density of batteries. Which absolutely kills it for anything outside of extreme short hop flights. But electric engines are about 3x more efficient than liquid fuel engines. So now we're only 3x-4x of a direct replacement. That means we are not hugely far off. Boeing's next major plane won't run on batteries, but the one afterwards definitely will.

capitainenemo 8mo ago
Well, there's also burning regular fuel in a fuel cell, a FCEV. That doubles the efficiencies over ICE, so I guess that bumps it back up to 8x away? Given the great energy densities and stability in transport of hydrocarbons, there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources, so that could be a solution if we don't manage to increase battery densities by another order of magnitude.
- WalterBright 8mo ago
  > there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources I didn't realize that a "green" carbon atom is different from a regular carbon atom. They both result in CO2 when burned.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
    And, the two major byproducts of burning hydrocarbons are water and carbon dioxide. Literally essential plant nutrients, essential for life. Tangentially related, the 2022 Hunga Tonga–Hunga Haʻapai volcanic eruption ejected so much water vapour in to the upper atmosphere, it was estimated to have ongoing climate forcing effects for up to 10 years. Water vapour is a stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. And we heard precisely nothing about that in the media other than some science specific sources at the time and nothing on an ongoing basis. From Wikipedia: The underwater explosion also sent 146 million tons of water from the South Pacific Ocean into the stratosphere. The amount of water vapor ejected was 10 percent of the stratosphere's typical stock. It was enough to temporarily warm the surface of Earth. It is estimated that an excess of water vapour should remain for 5–10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga_Ha%CA%BBapai_eruption_and_tsunami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga...

beAbU 8mo ago

The Mirai is a fuel cell EV. There is no engine. Not sure what your point is regarding engines?

WalterBright 8mo ago

> the place hydrogen might work is airplanes where the energy density of batteries doesn't work. How is that going to work? Cryogenic liquid hydrogen? High pressure tanks? Those don't seem practical for an airplane. What does work for airplanes is to use carbon atoms that hydrogen atoms can attach to. Then, it becomes a liquid that can easily be stored at room temperature in lightweight tanks. Very high energy density, and energy per weight! (I think it's called kerosene.)

TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
Diesel, kerosene, rocket propelled RP1, and fuel oil / bunker fuel in the case of cargo ships. It’s not a coincidence that where easy of handling, storage safety, and high energy density are needed everything seems to converge on compression ignition medium to long chain liquid hydrocarbons.
saalweachter 8mo ago
What if you just, like, put the hydrogen in a big balloon?
- westmeal 8mo ago
  Dude so like, one time some guy did that and like the entire thing just blew up bro. Seriously knockered.
  - WalterBright 8mo ago
    Hydrogen airships are unfairly demonized. Airplanes burn and blow up, too - we've just learned over time how to minimize that risk. The main problem with an airship is they are vulnerable to weather.

dev1ycan 8mo ago

They are just too much in bed with big oil to want to switch, instead they spend rnd on hydrogen in order to mess up with renewables on purpose.

Braxton1980 8mo ago
Hydrogen only makes electric vehicles look good and the only alternative. In fact, if this purposeful which I doubt, it probably helped stopped other companies from making hydrogen

Braxton1980 8mo ago

It might also be because the Japanese government works very hard to have full employment and EVs require less labor.

hogehoge51 8mo ago

WTF , you are commenting about FCEV - these things dont have engines! The strategy clearly stated by Akio Toyoda is multiple power train technology. You can listen to his interviews on the subject, some are in Japanese, but as you have stated a clear and unambiguous interpretation of Toyota's policy I will assume you have that fluency. (Automotive OEMs are assemblers, the parts come from the supply chain starting with Tier 1 suppliers. In that sense TMC does not do "making engines", but possibly the nuance and consequences here of whether not it "wraps it's head" to "makes things", vs if it has the capability to specify, manufacture distribute something at scale with a globally localized supply chain AND adjust to consumer demand/resource availability changes 5 years after the design start - in this context i ask you, can you "wrap your head" around the latest models that are coming out in every power train technology fcev, (p)hev to bev)

WarmWash 8mo ago
Toyota has had this hydrogen bug since the early 90's. What's that old meme? Stop trying to make ____ happen, it's not going to happen.
- hogehoge51 8mo ago
  The point I was trying to make was I'm not sure it was ever about making something happen completely, but being prepared on all fronts for whatever the outcome is. Kaizen and JIT are not good for revolutionary change. So I expect by bootstrapping different options early enough they can act on real market pressure once the condition to accurately assess the evidence is available. For hydrogen getting to that point was a multi decade lead time. I suspect most western commentary on this topic comes from people not understanding both how numerical/empirical based Toyota are, how self aware of their potential weaknesses they are, plus the ability of a Japanese business to hold to a multi decade hedging initiative.

api 8mo ago

Biofuel makes more sense for airplanes. No conversion even necessary. You could fuel up a 737 with properly formulated biofuel and fly it now, though a lot of validation would be needed to be generally allowed especially for passenger flights. If we want easier to produce biofuels then LNG aviation makes sense. We are flying LNG rockets already. You could go ahead and design LNG planes now and they’d emit less carbon even on fossil natural gas. Existing turbofan jet engines could be retrofitted to burn methane. Biogas is incredibly easy to make to the point that there are pretty easy designs online for off grid biogas digesters you can use to run a generator. You can literally just turn a barrel upside down in a slightly larger barrel full of water, shit, and food waste, attach a hose to it, and as the inner barrel floats up it fills with biogas under mild pressure that you can plug right into things. May need to dry it for some applications since it might contain some water vapor but that’s not hard. Industrial scale biogas is basically the same principle. Just large scale, usually using sewage and farm waste. LNG rockets also mean “green” space launch is entirely possible.

lstodd 8mo ago
LNG aviation does not make any more sense than H2 aviation. Even LPG does not make any sense since you neither can haul 16 bar fuel tanks, nor can you realistically maintain temperature for 1-2atm pressure. And any leak is not 'oh. look, a kerosene stain on tarmac', it's ready-made fuel-air explosion. On the plus side we would be able to retire airport fire engines because they would never be able to get to a crash before it completely burns out.
- fuzzfactor 8mo ago
  You can't get much better than ready-made, for rocketry. As if LNG is effectively more dense in flight than ordinary LPG, which doesn't need to be cryogenic to handle. Armchair fuel experts do still provide food for thought though ;)

vkou 8mo ago

> It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Which is also the reason why its plug-in hybrids are so reliable, despite being dramatically more complex than either an EV or an ICE. Toyota is very good at making engines, and it would be insane to throw away all that expertise to deliver a half-assed new product.