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221 Cannon is Not For Sale
- ChrisMarshallNY 8mo agoIs this what happened with Graceland?
- ajcp 8mo ago> He also provided a fake email for my brother: alexanderedwardenenson@out-look.com. Notice the subtle misspelling — “Benenson” without the second “n” in the email, and the hyphenated “out-look.com” domain. Surely you meant "'Benenson' without the “b” in the email, and the hyphenated 'out-look.com' domain"?
- charles_f 8mo agoI had to re-read the email twice and concluded the same.
- ahyangyi 8mo agoIt is so bizarre that I start to think this is a non-human mistake. (No I'm not looking at that em-dash)
- randallsquared 8mo agoThis is actually a really weird mistake. It's a completely different spelling mistake than in reality, and I wonder if it's an artifact of polishing the post with AI that "corrected" something that was right (or only a vague bullet point) in the original? (ETA: Another one: referring to "hi good morning" in the images of texts when it's actually "hi <name> good evening").
- rwmj 8mo agoSomewhat common in the UK as well, example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-63392025 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-63392... (It took him 4 years to recover possession https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwygv79n8x1o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwygv79n8x1o) Here you can register with the Land Registry and they will email you if any enquiries or attempted sales happen on your property: https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud
- lateforwork 8mo agoIn the US identity theft is easier than in other countries because financial transactions are designed to be convenient, not safe. You can sell a property you own, or move your entire Fidelity savings to another bank, all without showing up in person.
- maciekkmrk 8mo agoIs this something a title insurance could help with?
- lateforwork 8mo agoTitle insurance protects the buyer. It doesn't protect the owner. Also, as mentioned in another post, lobbying from title insurance companies is the reason the US doesn't have a central registry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title#United_States
- unyttigfjelltol 8mo agoThis is interesting! A fraudulent deed on your title doesn’t change rights, but it might require you to clarify them in court, which is costly and inconvenient. Traditional title insurance only covered addressing clouds on title that existed when you acquired, meaning post-acquisition clouds would be your problem, but supposedly there is an enhanced coverage that title insurance companies offer as well, and the decision to surface the difference (at least where I live) lands with the closing attorney… who isn’t actually required to do or say anything about this….
- thekevan 8mo agoWhat about sinking 3 2x4s into the ground and nailing a 4x8 sheet of plywood with a tastefully painted sign indicating the property is not for sale? It won't stop everyone but any realtor doing due diligence will likely see it. If is lasts long enough, it will show up on Google street view as well.
- teeray 8mo agoA motivated attacker need only don a green safety vest and hard hat, then roll up with a white pickup truck, place some orange safety cones and take down the sign with a chainsaw.
- jgoldshlag 8mo agoThe point is that nearly all of the people doing this don't even live in the country where the land is being sold from. A simple sign would probably be quite effective
- teeray 8mo agoTrue, but you can still do a confused deputy attack. The fraudster hires a property manager, informs them that they would like to remove the sign because they wish the list the property for sale. Either that or they con a realtor they're working with into doing it. The unknowing realtor, eager for the commission, knows a guy who can take it down.
- zamadatix 8mo agoThere's always something that can happen in any scenario. Social engineering, hiring locals, deeper forms of identity theft, or worse. The possibilities never hit 0, they just become a lot less profitable (and a lot riskier) a scam to try to run.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8mo agoYes, locks aren’t there to prevent the determined thief. They are for the 99% of other opportunists that will move on to an easier target immediately when they see your lock is harder to defeat
- teeray 8mo agoPeriodic reminder that "identity theft" is the financial system gaslighting you into thinking their poor decisions are your fault.
- Analemma_ 8mo agoThis is a Mad Libs autopilot reply which has nothing to do with the article.
- ElevenLathe 8mo agoI wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the article. A real estate agent selling your land on behalf of someone that isn't you is roughly analogous to a bank giving credit in your name to someone who isn't you. Either way, someone who isn't you got scammed by someone else who also isn't you, but somehow this is your problem.
- fortran77 8mo agoThat's why I downvoted and flagged it -- along with your content-free response.
- alexjm 8mo agoWe don't even need the term "identity theft". We already have a perfectly good word for than: "fraud".
- emptybits 8mo ago1. Author lost me at his first sentence: "Like most people, I’ve had my identity stolen once or twice in my life." I am careful and aware of this possibility, but AFAIK I have not experienced this, nor have "most people" I know. o_O Crazy times. 2. I don't even understand how a title transfer could happen without verifying ownership. Is the title system in the USA decentralized or that much different than elsewhere? i.e. Torrens-style
- x0x0 8mo agoThey're not trying to transfer ownership. They're trying to scam people out of the earnest money before a title search (ie ownership verification) happens. Titles are very decentralized; they are likely modestly-competently managed at the county level, of which there up to 254 per state (Texas). And identity theft is also very easy in the US. It happened to an old in my family. The state dmv happily mailed a replacement license to a completely different state without so much as checking with the person whose license it is. Just for the asking. It's absurd.
- jjmarr 8mo agoUnlike most common law jurisdictions, the United States doesn't have a central land registry due to lobbying from the title insurance industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title#United_States
- nine_k 8mo agoI wonder why a commercial entity that registers ownership / titles for free, and bills for checking, did not spring up. Clearly there is moneyed demand for certainty about title rights, and if you can provide certainty (because the last deal was registered with you), it may be a more desirable product than mere insurance.
- wrs 8mo agoIt’s turtles all the way down, though — how do you know that last deal had clear title? At some point you’re going to want insurance anyway. In any case, the US system is already that the government records ownership (not for free, but for a small recording fee) and the title company charges for checking, and for insurance in case they get it wrong. As just one example of how it can go wrong, here in Seattle it’s common to find out your lot is nine inches smaller than you thought because surveying technology is a lot better now than it was when your deed was written in 1908.
- DannyPage 8mo agoOwning a vacant lot far from where you live seems to come with some risks. In Hawaii, a woman found out that a house was built on the wrong lot and inspectors missed it until the completed house was being sold. I'm curious if there are other proactive measures folks could take to ensure that doesn't happen to their land. https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-home-built-on-wrong-lot-to-be-torn-down-19541255.php https://www.sfgate.com/hawaii/article/hawaii-home-built-on-w...
- IncreasePosts 8mo agoWhat risk? She got a free house out of it! (The house was ordered to be demolished, but the owner and the builder reached a confidential settlement and the house is still standing to this day)
- compiler-guy 8mo agoAfter years of legal wrangling and headaches she came to a settlement that may or may not have been her originally preferred solution.
- stackedinserter 8mo agoThat's why such thing as "vacant land" shouldn't exist. Have a land -> do something on it. If you don't -> sell it to someone who do, or pay taxes that double every year.
- Analemma_ 8mo agoLVT is a much simpler and less destructive version of this idea.
- hunterloftis 8mo ago> Reynolds was in for yet another unwelcome surprise: The developer sued her for being “unjustly enriched” by the construction of the home on her land. > The developers’ lawyer told SFGATE in March that Reynolds appeared to be taking advantage of the developer’s mistake. “Keaau Development Partnership is the only entity that has suffered hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of losses,” Peter Olson said. “She’s trying to exploit the situation to get money from my client and the other parties.” I'm glad the judge laughed that one right out: > The court has dismissed that case. > “The clear motivation of KDP and PJC was to cut corners to reduce construction costs,” the ruling read. “... The encroachment on Lot 114 is so great that the Court finds it has caused the complete destruction of Ms. Reynolds' estate as it had been originally held and enjoyed.”
- wplu 8mo agoAnother story of a title transfer scam: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/title-pirates/id290783428?i=1000677959786 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/title-pirates/id290783...
- juancn 8mo agoLike most people, I’ve had my identity stolen once or twice in my life. Huh? It's not as common. I don't think I've been victim of it ever, unless it's way more common in some other countries? Much less on a property deal where identity and ownership are heavily scrutinized.
- IhateAI 8mo agoThis doesn't make sense, earnest money would be in escrow until the title clears. The scammer would never have access to the earnest money, nor would it ever get transferred to them unless the buyer took too long to close, or didn't come up with funds?? Like the title company would almost have to be involved for this to work.
- rationalist 8mo agoThe title is often actually transfered, and it is a mess to clean up. You could walk into a court house and submit paperwork for filing, that transfers the title - all without any kind of sale or verification. It happens.
- IhateAI 8mo agoHmm, I guess you technically just need to convince a notary that you're the seller and with virtual closings/ mobile notaries I guess that's probably pretty easy. But still the scammer would never see the earnest money, unless the buyer backed out outside of an option period for whatever reason. Presumably they wouldn't if the land is cheap, and they've agreed to pay cash and put earnest money down.
- InitialLastName 8mo agoThe global freight carrier storefronts around me all have notary services. I used them to notarize the documents from my last home sale; they glanced at my ID to the extent that they checked it matched the name on the paperwork, and signed off on it.
- WillPostForFood 8mo agoThe scammer isn't trying to get the earnest money, they are trying to get the full sale price.
- IhateAI 8mo agoWell yes, I assume that too. But the article says they'll pocket the earnest money which makes zero sense. Probably another example of someone incapable of writing an article by themselves and used an LLM. >"7. If they get farther they’ll pocket the earnest money deposit which would have been significant in my case."
- 1970-01-01 8mo ago6. If questioned, they disappear. Seems like this isn't really a problem? Who sells land without questions?
- gus_massa 8mo agoI was thinking the same, but IIUC they are expecting to get away only with the reserve money, not the full price.
- silisili 8mo agoSadly, incredibly common. It's a shame we don't have better protections for this by now. Here's another I remember reading recently. I feel sorry for both parties and not sure how I think that should be adjudicated... https://www.businessinsider.com/property-fraud-lawsuit-fairfield-connecticut-2023-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/property-fraud-lawsuit-fairf...
- clarkmoody 8mo agoThe FBI won't get involved unless it's politically advantageous.
- marssaxman 8mo agoFor years now I have been regularly receiving unsolicited offers to buy 560 Bluefields Street SE, an undeveloped lot in Palm Bay, Florida. Whether the land is actually for sale, I have no idea; I've never been anywhere near the place, and cannot imagine why anyone would believe I owned land there. I wish I could somehow redirect the speculators who won't stop pestering me to scammers like the ones in this tale, so they would leave me in peace and all go harass each other instead. I suspect that the speculators are scammers anyway: they never respond to my questions.
- briHass 8mo agoCheck who used to own your place and who owns that lot now and see if any names line up. I still receive occasional postcards from real estate mogul wannabes for a property out in Colorado (I'm in PA). The previous owners of our house moved to Colorado after they sold us their house, and I assume their name is linked to our address in some gray-market/online DB. Why they wouldn't just send purchase offers direct to the house in CO instead of what they think is the owner's primary address (ours) I don't know, but I'm sure they fire off thousands of these things and don't really care how many are accurate.
- dclowd9901 8mo ago> He gave me the standard line: 2-3 weeks if I hear from anyone. > I never heard from anyone. What is the FBI doing if they're not working on cases like this or domestic terrorism/mass shootings? We continue to have both classes of crimes in droves.
- mcherm 8mo agoThey are busy assisting ICE with hunting down immigrants.
- engineer_22 8mo agoHaving recently been the victim of burglary, twice, I was shocked and dismayed at the lack of response from the authorities...
- y-curious 8mo agoYou end up investigating it yourself and they still don’t care. Definitely changed my view of the cops when we got robbed by our neighbor in Buffalo, NY
- Xeoncross 8mo agoYou're just a citizen. Why would any of the three-letter agencies work on what you need?
- some_random 8mo agoThey're busy planning domestic terrorism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot#FBI_informants_and_agents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...), entrapping the mentally ill (https://archive.vn/riFSI https://archive.vn/riFSI), etc. In all seriousness, this is probably an international crime and they just do not have the resources to chase them all down.
- stogot 8mo agoThat first link does not prove your claim
- sharadov 8mo agoA friend owned farm land in India, he moved to Canada. The property deed was in his name. Someone in India, with fraudulent documents "sold" his land. He only came to know about it when he next visited India. Unfortunately he could not do much. There are people who will actively look through property records - if the person is not a local resident ( lives internationally ), then they are prime targets. This was a decade ago - things have gotten a lot better with digital records and India's Universal ID system. But I did not realize, something like this was possible in the US.
- ikr678 8mo agoThis is very prevalent in South Africa, to the point there is a legal cottage industry around verifying original documents vs counterfits (down to fingerprint testing, chemical analysis of inks).
- consp 8mo agoReminds me about what my uncle told me (not India though): As a foreigner or someone local out of the country for extended period you rent a caretaker and pay them enough so they don't leave the property unattended. And build a fence around it.
- ivraatiems 8mo agoI have had people show up at my house to ask if it was for rent, based on a fake post on Facebook using photos from Zillow from before my home was sold. My realtor helped me get the photos taken down, but the Facebook ads for it are up to this day. Facebook completely ignores any and all attempts by me to report this malfeasance -- even though these ads literally have my personal home address on them! It's a huge safety risk to me and not due to anything I did whatsoever; all I did was buy a house that was on the market and then move into it. It's a nightmare.
- milesvp 8mo agoI would contact Facebook legal directly with documents showing the problem. Legal’s job is always to minimize liability for the company, and they have levers they can pull in any organization, no matter how “hyper scale” they claim to be. Bonus points for figuring out the correct language to use to imply repercussions for failure to act without any actual threats. Patio11 has written about similarly worded letters with regards to debt collections and banking, and I know that there are all kinds of magic incantations in law for all kinds of transgretions.
- ivraatiems 8mo agoThis is good advice and probably an avenue I need to explore, thank you.
- nvader 8mo ago"Patio11" itself is a magic incantion for your friendly neighborhood LLM, along with "dangerous professional". You can use these to prompt for suitable language in the email, as well as other courses of action.
- Lord_Zero 8mo agoTrue but also my lawyer would charge me like $100 to send a letter with his title on it and that usually does the trick.
- citizenpaul 8mo ago
- woah 8mo agoDoes title insurance cover it if the sale actually goes through?
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- Waterluvian 8mo ago> Like most people, I’ve had my identity stolen once or twice in my life. Is there a term for this deceitful language tactic? “Everybody knows that…” “It’s obvious that…” I think this one aggravates me the most because I feel targeted and lumped in with a group I’ve put effort into not being a part of.
- y-curious 8mo agoDefinitely raised my eyebrow. I assume he was being tongue in cheek. Reminds me of this copypasta: “PROTIP: if you own a gun over a year without negligent discharging at least once, you aren't handling it enough. NDs are a natural part of handling weapons, just like tweaking your back is part of weightlifting and car accidents are part of driving. I ND several times a year because I actually HANDLE and know how to USE my weapons. It makes me a better firearms handler and marksman, and it's a small part of the price you pay in the sheepdog lifestyle Simple fact is, the "safety mentality" will build mental blocks in your head that will get you killed. You need to be comfortable putting your finger on the trigger and pointing the gun wherever you want no matter the time, place, or status of the weapon. Taking time to check whether the gun is loaded whenever you pick one up will serve to make you hesitate in a personal defense scenario”
- m463 8mo agomaybe "appeal to popularity" It suggests that a claim is true simply because many people believe it to be true
- somehnguy 8mo agoJust as an aside, you can put as much effort as you want in, there is no guarantee. My identity was stolen to take out large student loans when I was 3 years old. I learned of it when I was graduated and was trying to take out loans of my own - it was a mess. I certainly didn't do anything risky as a baby to result in my identity being stolen but it happened anyway.
- kevin_thibedeau 8mo agoSince you've discovered law enforcement isn't interested in enforcing the law, you need to set up your own sting and get the scammer to show up where you can arrest them after they commit a crime in your presence.
- avidiax 8mo agoThe scammer will show up to a bar in Bucharest. They are probably not even legally allowed in the U.S. None of this scam requires the scammer to be in the U.S. Even the New York driver's license, even if it is real, could be muled. More likely it is just a photoshop. And even if they do show up to the meet, what are you going to do? Call the police? Will they even show up quickly? When they do, whose photo ID will the believe? Seems like a good way to spend a night at the station while the police sort some things out.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 8mo agoA relatively obvious photoshop, unless the date of issue is printed diagonally on genuine ones.
- vsviridov 8mo agoI wonder if you could take a lien against yourself, it would show up for any potential buyer...
- benatkin 8mo agoNeeds to be a new HTTP status code to go along with 418. Never mind that it doesn't start with the right number. Also I'm sure glad that scammer didn't manage to buy that cannon!
- jdkfishekc 8mo agoThere's a pretty interesting Japanese show called Tokyo Swindlers that covers some real estate fraud in Tokyo. Not particularly realistic as far as I know but I enjoyed it.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 8mo agoWhat's unclear to me from the blog post is whether this is a problem for the property owner, or only for the buyers/attorneys/relators/insurances involved on the other side of the scam? It seems like in most cases the scammer pockets the earnest money deposit and that's it, in some cases, the buyer thinks they actually bought the property but they haven't actually (how does that work in terms of the deed?) Seems like the worst case outcome for vacant land is "free house"? Edit: based on the comments, the problem for the property owner is the headache and cost associated with cleaning the mess up. You don't lose the property but a fraudulent title change (?) can actually end up in the registry, which can be cleaned up but is a major PITA.
- hunterloftis 8mo agoAlso: free random house you didn't want, design, or ask for. If you've held onto vacant property for years or decades, you may have a specific plan in mind for it (like retirement).
- pseudohadamard 8mo ago>slightly awkward phrasing (“Hi good morning”) That's a dead giveaway that you're talking to an ESOL European, "hello good morning" or "hello good evening".
- vmilner 8mo agoFor UK readers, the government land registry alert service can alert you if anyone attempts to mortgage sell properties youve registered with it: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert
- stoobs 8mo agoYou can also file a restriction registration to prevent anyone from registering a mortgage against the property: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/enter-a-restriction-registration-rx1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/enter-a-restricti...
- MarginalGainz 8mo ago[dead]
- estsauver 8mo agoThis was extremely common as a scam in Kenya, the solution there was an extraordinarily simple tactic: Put up a big "This property is not for sale" sign on the land.
- angry_octet 8mo agoThe best remedy for this is a Land Title Registry, which is a secure database of who owns a parcel of land, and a mandated verification of identity (VoI) standard. You no longer require title deeds, notaries, or title insurance. It isn't totally proof against sophisticated social engineering and gullibility of course, but it is a lot safer. For registry titles you can also add caveats, that require sign-off from another party before transactions can occur. Unfortunately the contact address is still purely snail mail, no email or phone numbers. If you title has a bank mortgage that will appear as a caveat, requiring the debt to be discharged before it can be removed, and that also involves more ID verification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_title https://www.firstlinks.com.au/why-our-torrens-title-property-system-hasn-t-been-adopted-elsewhere https://www.firstlinks.com.au/why-our-torrens-title-property...
- consp 8mo agoIt's not the same as forgery, and maybe less worse, but it's not a panacea. It would still have issues as there is a lot of legacy stuff out there. We have a registry (based on the Cadastre system) and it's not uncommon for there to be disputes about the land borders which are only resolved by a judge and not simply by looking at the data. Maps are old, stuff gets lost, is poorly digitized, etc.
- angry_octet 8mo agoIt's a long term project but if you enforce that new sales use the registry it already makes fraud much harder.
- jacekm 8mo agoIn Poland all transactions related to housing or land must be notarized with both buyer and seller present, the notary is supposed to check their IDs. Sadly it happened a couple of times that scammers presented a fake or stolen ID to a notary who did not recognize the forgery. Nowadays you can mark your personal number (equivalent of SSN) in the central, governmental database as restricted. This prevents notarized transactions, bank loans or issuing SIM card duplicates in your name. When you need a loan or buy a property you just log in to the system (or open the governmental app) and uncheck the checkbox.
- stackedinserter 8mo agoYou know what? Fuck this guy. And that one who found a 4-bedroom house on his land that he haven't used for decades. They didn't do anything with their land and doesn't have any plans for it for the foreseeable future. It's not like a snowblower that sits in your garage unused. It's land, a piece of planet. If you own it, you should use it for something. If you don't, return it back to people.
- mzs 8mo agoWho was the 222nd commentator? https://imgur.com/a/i5YQ2c4 https://imgur.com/a/i5YQ2c4
- joshuaheard 8mo agoOn Zillow, you can claim ownership of a property. I'm not sure what notices they give, but I would definitely do that.
- kazinator 8mo ago> This type of scam targets a very specific vulnerability: vacant land has no occupants to notice a for-sale sign, no neighbors who’d immediately recognize something is wrong, and closings often happen remotely. Your vacant land could have signs which state that it is not for sale; any online listing is a scam. It could be something small but easily spotted by a real estate agent or other interested party actually visiting the site, but not so obvious or legible in pictures.