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Correct. In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. It's all security theater. TSA Chief Out After Agents Fail 95

• unclad5968 8mo ago
  > In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. It's all security theater. This matches my experience. I recently flew out of a small airport that flies 2 fairchild metro 23 turboprop planes up to 9 passengers. There were four TSA agents to check the 5 of us that were flying.
  • bruce511 8mo ago
    You gotta love the TSA. They serve no real purpose, but its a monster too big to kill, staffed by people who desperately cling to the notion they're doing something important. They don't stop hijackings (locking the cockpit door does that), they don't stop bombings (there are much better targets for that, which don't involve killing the bomber), they don't stop weapons (lots of airports outside the US have simple metal detectors for that.) They do however cost the govt a lot of money, keep a lot of expensive-machine-makers, and in business, improve shampoo sales at destinations, waste a lot of passenger time and so on. So... what's not to love?
    • closewith 8mo ago
      > they don't stop bombings (there are much better targets for that, which don't involve killing the bomber), I think you should read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_airliner_bombing_a... The only reason you believe aircraft bombings aren't being stopped is because you live in a world where rigourous security has stopped all aircraft bombings.
      • thaumasiotes 8mo ago
        There's a pretty strong trend in that timeline of two types of "bombings": (1) Bombings in which the bomb is supplied by someone who isn't flying on the plane; (2) Failed hijackings in which there was no intent to bomb the plane, but a bomb accidentally went off.
        • lblissett 8mo ago
          also, people always immediately think of terrorism, but TIL that life insurance policies are responsible for way more plane bombings than I thought
      • reeredfdfdf 8mo ago
        Yeah. The "security theater" absolutely does play its part in stopping attacks. Without it, airplanes would be an extremely easy target for any nutjob to commit mass murder in. They wouldn't even necessarily need a bomb, anything that can cause a big enough fire mid-flight could be potentially catastrophic. Over past few decades many airliners have crashed because out of control fire in the cabin / cargo hold. I really don't want it to be easy for any random person to cause such fire.
        • sethammons 8mo ago
          Did you drop a sarcasm tag? Anyone can make a fire on a plane as they allow lighters on a plane, and batteries, and any number of flammable objects. None of that is facing any scrutiny nor stopping crazy people from being crazy.
          • wakawaka28 8mo ago
            I've heard that cell phones often catch fire on planes, and the crews know how to deal with that. I guess they have to because the odds of one going up are pretty good across so many flights.
            • throwaway290 8mo ago
    • ssl-3 8mo ago
      The grunts working for TSA on the floor at airports aren't desperately clinging for the notion that they're doing something important, or working towards some lofty, noble, and/or altruistic goal. It's just a job. They're principally motivated to do this job by the promise of a steady paycheck and decent benefits -- the same motivation that most other people with steady paychecks and decent benefits also have.
      • dataengineer56 8mo ago
        In my experience many of them do feel like they're doing something important, and some seem principally motivated to do the job by the promise of being able to bully travellers.
        • mlrtime 8mo ago
          >do feel like they're doing something important First I agree TSA is mostly theater... however if you HAD to have it, you want the people to work like this. I might be old-school but I think everyone should have pride and responsibility in their work. Even if from the outside it is meaningless. 100% no reason to be a bully, that is not pride/responsibility. Every job has ass assholes.
          • swiftcoder 8mo ago
            > Every job has ass assholes. Yeah, but jobs that are police-adjacent have them at a very high rate. Almost like they select for it or something...
            • cucumber3732842 8mo ago
              >Yeah, but jobs that are police-adjacent have them at a very high rate. Almost like they select for it or something... Proximity to violence is probably the measuring stick you're looking for. Police spend the bulk of their day credibly threatening violence. Just about every word that comes out of their mouth, pen or keyboard while they're at work is implicitly back by an "or else". Everyone who isn't an asshole is gonna wash out of that job, start doing something behind a desk, start a PI firm, etc. etc. So you're left with rookie and assholes and the occasional exception. The TSA, all your non-police state and municipal enforcement agencies, etc, etc, are gonna serve to concentrate "asshole lites" people because anybody who isn't will have issues spending their day dispensing what are basically "do as I say, or pay what I say, or else the police will do violence on you" threats on behalf of the state and so they'll jump ship as they become jaded same as cops do, but the pressures are less because they're not as proximate to the violence. You can take this a third step out. There are all sorts of industries, jobs, etc, etc. that exist soley to keep the above two groups off your back. Nobody wants to hire these people, but are basically forced to under 3rd hand thread of violence. Same effect, but still watered down. Even more removed are jobs where some fraction of the business is driven to you under similar circumstances. For example, ask any mechanic. People forced to be there by a state inspection program are consistently the worst customers. And there's the same wash out effect. People get tired of arguing about tread depth or whatever and they go turn wrenches on forklifts or whatever.
    • throwaway290 8mo ago
      > they don't stop weapons (lots of airports outside the US have simple metal detectors for that.) There are 3D printed guns.
      • fc417fc802 8mo ago
        Those tend to have extremely limited usefulness. Good enough to assassinate a single person at point blank range before they catastrophically fail but (unless something has changed) not much else. Plastic just isn't cut out for the job.
      • koshergweilo 8mo ago
        Don't you still need metal bullets for the 3d printed gun?
        • fc417fc802 8mo ago
          Those don't generally have any ferrous components.
          • edm0nd 8mo ago
            yes but the spring in the magazine does. also the rails on the lower, the barrel, etc.
            • fc417fc802 8mo ago
              Not in the context of someone smuggling a weapon through a security checkpoint. At least not unless they're certain that it's small enough not to trigger the detector. That said I will note that it is generally illegal to possess such nonferrous weapons regardless of circumstance.
              • mrguyorama 8mo ago
                And it is, again, completely irrelevant. How does a plastic pistol open the cockpit door? It is proof to small calibers. You might shoot someone in the plane and then you will be subdued and ghaddafied with a SkyMall magazine. Not the most effective form of terrorism. Countries that didn't create the TSA also had a reduction in terrorism.
    • matwood 8mo ago
      > They don't stop hijackings (locking the cockpit door does that) 9/11 also stopped all future hijackings. Up to that point passengers were trained that if they stayed calm they would likely survive. Now? Short of the hijackers getting guns on the plane, passengers will absolutely fight back. > they don't stop bombings (there are much better targets for that, which don't involve killing the bomber) Suicide bombers are probably the main vector that TSA helps avoid even if they miss some items sometimes.
      • ExoticPearTree 8mo ago
        > Suicide bombers are probably the main vector that TSA helps avoid even if they miss some items sometimes. Not really, but this is because there are pretty much no suicide bombers anywhere in airports. They are incredibly rare. But if you're a suicide bomber, by the time you get to the TSA checkpoint you can do a ton of damage inside a terminal during a holiday season when all airports are packed. Until then no one is stopping you.
        • Scoundreller 8mo ago
          That’s what happened in Brussels. I was hoping these events could be used to impose fines/jailtime for airlines/airports/security that have queues longer than 5 people, but you know, counter-terrorism can’t mean making life better for the public.
          • ExoticPearTree 8mo ago
            > I was hoping these events could be used to impose fines/jailtime for airlines/airports/security that have queues longer than 5 people, but you know, counter-terrorism can’t mean making life better for the public. Not even at private airports or business terminal can you can manage not having a queue smaller than 5 people. So this is a really no-go from many points of view. BRU did something incredibly retarded after the incident: moved the queue outside. I mean yes, in open air a bomb is less lethal than in an enclosed space, but will still kill people. And like others said, we developed capabilities to track hostiles before they can actually blow up a bunch of people. That's why you don't see FRA or MUC or CDG or LHR being blown up daily.
    • burner420042 8mo ago
      When flying international in to the US, we literally all stand in long lines watching the TSA agents. TSA serves as the introduction to America... I can't think of another country where the personnel aren't groomed and 'height / weight proportionate'.
  • burner420042 8mo ago
    None the less, this is still effectively an entrance checkpoint to a 'secure area' aka the large airport you're flying to, as you've now already gone through security.
• aiisjustanif 8mo ago
  While still theatre to a degree, that was 11 years ago.
  • kyralis 8mo ago
    Do you have evidence that anything has changed?
    • angry_octet 8mo ago
      In Europe you pay to go to the theatre. In the US you pay not to go to the theatre, they call it TSA PreCheck®.
• JasonADrury 8mo ago
  I routinely conceal large bottles of liquids on my person while going through airport security. I've probably gone through airport security in various places with a 1.5L bottle of water more than a hundred times now. Haven't been caught once, although of course the US-style scanners could presumably defeat this. Same with hot sauces, perfume and the occasional bottles of wine. I really don't like to travel with a checked-in luggage, so this is a frequent problem. Luckily I own lots of Rick Owens clothes with large hidden pockets.
  • grepfru_it 8mo ago
    A plastic water bottle isn’t triggering a tsa pre check metal detector. I’m totally doing this next trip
    • kleiba 8mo ago
      I've never done that yet I've never had any trouble finding water past security or even on a plane?!
      • fc417fc802 8mo ago
        When people say "water" here I have to assume they mean "vodka". Otherwise you can just bring an empty bottle and fill it on the other side. It's the toiletries that pose a problem.
        • JasonADrury 8mo ago
          Disappointingly, in my case it's usually just water. I'm walking towards security with my bottle, I can either slip it in my pocket or put it in a bin. Not throwing it away saves a bit of time and quickly becomes the default choice.
        • angry_octet 8mo ago
          I've been in many airports where there is no water on the other side of the X-ray. At KLIA and DPS they have none to buy even, and then you have to fight for it on the plane. At CDG you have to buy it, no water fountain. It's extremely aggravating.
• lostlogin 8mo ago
  > the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. I thought that was the US military?
  • askl 8mo ago
    I thought that was the US police force?
  • thinkingtoilet 8mo ago
    I don't necessarily agree with the OP, but a lot of TSA is ex-military.
• fc417fc802 8mo ago
  I find it interesting to contrast this with my experience flying out of China. I was taken to a private room and shown the digital colored X-ray of my bag on which a box had been drawn around an empty lighter, I was asked to remove it myself and hand it over, and I went on my way. All in under 5 minutes, no pat down, no fuss, and no one physically rifled through my belongings. (Granted I was a tourist so that might well not be typical.) I'm not sure what their success rate is when tested by professionals but the experience definitely left me wondering WTF the deal with the TSA is.
  • wakawaka28 8mo ago
    A lighter is very different from a weapon. I'm sure they can see everything they need to see with X-rays. Do you think they find a white guy flying out of China to be a likely terrorist? (I'm assuming you are white or asian.) I've never had a bad experience with TSA but I hate taking off my shoes and all. I really question the value of those security measures.
    • fc417fc802 8mo ago
      I haven't had any particularly bad experiences with the TSA either but I have been physically searched a few times. The entire process is definitely slower and more involved. The contrast of that coupled with the published failure statistics just leaves me wondering. I'd rather we got rid of them but if we must keep them I think we could do at least a bit better.
      • brewdad 8mo ago
        Almost every time I've had a secondary search I've thought "Yeah, I can see how that looks suspicious on x-ray". A large block of cheese as one example. My two favorite pull-asides were for a three inch toy cannon my son brought back from a civil war site and my 18 inch plastic roller I carried to the Boston Marathon. I was allowed to proceed with both but the roller required a supervisor's approval and the cannon actually had to go up two levels.
    • teiferer 8mo ago
• dboreham 8mo ago
  TSA is much more skilled than the security people employed by the airlines that proceeded them.
• PeterStuer 8mo ago
  "In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. It's all security theater." Over here, it's G4S pork barrel contracts.
• bartread 8mo ago
  I don’t think it’s just the TSA tbh. A couple of years before the pandemic I managed to make it all the way from London Heathrow to Auckland, New Zealand, passing through Dubai and Brisbane on the way, with one of those USB rechargeable plasma lighters and a Gerber multitool in my hand luggage. Completely unintentional, of course, but due to #reasons I had packed in some haste and made the mistake of not completely unpacking my day sack, which I also used to carry my laptop for work, first. I stayed in Auckland a couple of days and the items were eventually picked up on a scan before my flight to Queenstown. The guy was very nice about it: he had to confiscate the lighter, but he let me post the Multitool to my hotel in Queenstown. A couple of years ago I did something similar flying out of Stansted but, that time, it was picked up at the airport and, again, I was able to get the items posted back to my home address. Nowadays I always completely empty all compartments of all bags I’m taking before repacking, even when I’m in a hurry.
  • ghaff 8mo ago
    I no longer keep multitools in random bags that I sometimes also use for travel. I figure it's just a matter of time before I forget it's there when I'm packing in a hurry. (I don't travel as much any longer but still.)
    • bartread 8mo ago
      You're very sensible, and that seems like an absolutely foolproof way of solving the problem. I went through a stage where I'd keep the multitool on my belt because the carry case comes with a handy belt loop but, depending on what you're doing, it can dig in to your side/front/back or catch on things, which is annoying, and in a lot of contexts it's perhaps just one level of dweebiness too far. And, yes, I absolutely am a dweeb and have zero shame about it, but there are contexts where I need to mask at least to some extent in order to be taken seriously/function effectively which I've accepted as a "cost of doing business".
• morpheuskafka 8mo ago
  > Correct. In the US, the TSA is just a government jobs program for the lowly skilled or unskilled. This is oft repeated, but as a federal job, the bar is at least slightly higher than those typical AlliedUniversal/Andy Frain/Etc mall cop guards you see all over the place. I have no doubt that many are incompetent, but I think it is a big unfair that it gets singled out as a "jobs program" given that the bar is on the floor industrywide for security. An interesting comparison would be FPS, which is the agency that does security checks for federal buildings, also under DHS same as TSA. They are armed despite many of them having an indoor only role (a few do patrol larger campuses outdoors). Thus, I suspect the requirements are somewhat higher. They are generally more thorough in my experience, except for one time where they did not notice one of my shoes got stuck and didn't go through the X ray, which is funny because they insist on all dress shoes being scanned as they have a tiny metal bar inside. The same shoes go through TSA just fine.
  • BigTTYGothGF 8mo ago
    > as a federal job Aren't they all contractors?
    • morpheuskafka 8mo ago
      No, none of them are federal contractors. They are direct employees but not sworn law enforcement. You apply on USAJobs.gov and go to FLETC for training, although the topics are very different than sworn/1811s going there, ex no firearms training. Some airports, SFO being the only notable one iirc, choose to contract their own security as an airport/municipal contract with TSA approval, in which case TSA only staffs some executive/oversight roles. Occasionally you see staff in green DHS uniforms rather than blue TSA ones, such as the dog handlers, however I believe they are still under TSA, not sure if they are armed though as it is not the typical blue TSO/STSO uniform. I assume the technology part (secure flight) is heavily contractor run like most govt/defense technology, one of my old coworkers was briefly involved in that. Didn't say anything interesting about it beyond that they used one way fibers to upload the data into classified systems for processing without anything going back to the main system. The basic workings of the system are described in the SORN/PIA notices though IDK how up to date they keep them.
• ascagnel_ 8mo ago
  I'd believe that. I was in a situation where a bag started smoking _in the security checkpoint_ (it was a camera battery failing), and the TSA agents all abandoned the checkpoint. As a result, the FAA issued a full ground stop and had re-screen every passenger in the airport.
• ec109685 8mo ago
  Any large organization is going to have some terrible employees.
• schaefer 8mo ago
  > It's all security theater. It’s so much worse than that. Because the department of homeland security was formed in the panic following 911, many of the laws meant to protect our civil liberties (which have existed decades/centuries before the DHS was formed) haven’t been amended to explicitly apply to DHS staff as well. So what ICE is doing right now could only happen with the loopholes that apply only to DHS staff. So if not for the security theater of the TSA, Stephan Miller might not have had a mechanism to get the ball rolling on his murder squad that is ICE.
  • CGMthrowaway 8mo ago
    Can you be more specific? I have no idea what you're talking about re loopholes, DHS staff exclusions, etc.
    • schaefer 8mo ago
      Sure. I am not a lawyer, but I can give one example to the best of my ability. One Civil liberty I see Ice violating is the Fourth Amendment which protects against unreasonable search and seizure. But, for Boarder Patrol (under the Department of Homeland Security) there is a border search exception to the forth amendment. Border patrol can conduct searches without a warrant or reasonable suspicion. You might be on the fence about that. We do have to protect our boarders... sure. but the way the law is written, this border exception is applicable anywhere 100 miles from the border. That area covers 2/3rds of the population of the United States. -- So if you are wanting a power grab against your own citizens you would definitely try to use that loophole in creative ways. And that starts by using DHS staff that can claim their actions fall under the border search exception. This write up is a little off the cuff, so the details might be loose, but I hope this demonstrates the rough outline.
• vablings 8mo ago
  TSA Is not great, I have been groped by TSA twice, I have never been pat down by any European airport staff