11 ms·

Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

126 points by petermcneeley 10mo ago

bethekidyouwant 10mo ago
“The change means that all 18-year-olds in Germany will be sent a questionnaire from January 2026 asking if they are interested and willing to join the armed forces. The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.“ - all men have to fill out and return a form, I suppose this will work to increase recruitment. Doesn’t seem very controversial.
- throw310822 10mo ago
  Why do they have to fill it in and return it just to say no? Could this be used against them at some time in the future? And why women instead can just ignore it? Usually HN is very wary of the consequences of the state collecting data about its citizens and restricting freedoms in small steps. Is it not the case now?
  - throwaway2027 10mo ago
    When push comes to shove, men and women aren't equal
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - mystraline 10mo ago
      No, to a bunch of neoliberal elite politicians, women aren't equal. And those same politicians won't ever serve, nor compulsed to serve, and/or will shield their families from serving unless they really want to. But let's call it what it is: compulsed military service is slavery for the elite.
    - nothercastle 10mo ago
      When it comes to being drone operators or targets it’s probably a negligible difference
      - Balgair 10mo ago
        Actually you make a good point here. Women have better reaction times then men, so female drone operators, all else being equal, may be better at the job.
        jadamson 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        jeffrallen 10mo ago
        In my village's shooting club the women shoot just as well at the men, and quite a bit more consistently as well.
        nothercastle 10mo ago
        It’s mostly about ability to haul and dig as I understand it. I roles where you don’t need that as much strength is significantly less important
        wtcactus 10mo ago
        Source?
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
    - platevoltage 10mo ago
      The hand to hand combat, super common in modern warfare, should probably be left up to the men. Great point.
    - c0balt 10mo ago
      to add to this, under German law they very much are different in regards to mandatory military service. Neither the old nor the new laws contain mandatory military service for women leading to mandatory conscription being only an issue for men.
  - fabian2k 10mo ago
    Mandatory military service existed before in Germany, not all that long ago. So this is mostly returned to the same mechanisms as back then, though with the actual service being voluntary for now. And to include woman you'd have to change the constitution, as that part is specific to men.
- alistairSH 10mo ago
  They only recently (2011?) ended mandatory conscription so this is a pretty big about-face.
  - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
    Compulsory military service (or alternative national service) never ended in Germany; in 2011 it was only suspended.
    - alistairSH 10mo ago
      I don’t know the details… does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft?
      - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
        > does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? I don't know how the Selective Service requirement in the US works, so I can't answer this question. > Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft? Such a (temporary) suspension can hypothetically terminated at any time by the government. The question is basically how the population will react. I guess if the suspension of the general conscription would be terminated by the government, there would be really furious public rallies (and I am rather certain that my boss would immediately attempt to approve a vacation request if I wanted to attend such a rally in Berlin if it happened during the work week - just as an "innocent" kind of support for this cause from behind the lines :-) ) because multiple generations got really radicalized against compulsory military service (I wrote about this topic at https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 ). This is why the German government currently attempts to approach the whole topic of quitting the suspension of compulsory military service so indirectly.
        alistairSH 10mo ago
- fasbiner 10mo ago
  This may be too far of an obscure historical reference, but is there really nothing specific to German history and nothing within german civic education and contemporary national identity formation that might make this potentially more controversial? Hint:some of these events involved spheres of influence and control over resources in eastern europe!
  - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
    I think the much bigger issue is that the older generation (those who, say, turned 18 in the 70s) told the younger generation lots of really nasty stories about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of military service. These formed the value system of many people in at least two generations ("Soldaten sind Mörder" [soldiers are murders]). EDIT: If you understand German, here is a song from 1972 about these brutal cross-examinations: > Franz Josef Degenhardt - Befragung eines Kriegsdienstverweigerers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 Additionally, the participation of Germany in the first aggressive wars in Yugoslavia in 1999 and then in Afghanistan from 2001 on (before citizens were told that the Bundeswehr is only a defense army, and would never participate in an aggressive war) lead to a radicalization of another generation against the Bundeswehr - and yes, this generation eagerly listened to the above-mentioned horror stories of the older generations. It is even rumored that this next generation's radicalization against the Bundeswehr indirectly lead to the suspension of the compulsory military service in Germany in 2011.
    - fasbiner 10mo ago
      That's certainly some nuance there! I had in mind a more basic concept which due to legal restrictions in Germany maybe make thinking about it as part of German history and a geopolitical conflict likely to naturally reoccur is part of a Denkverbot. But I think you should legally be able to answer if you can think of anything between 1914 and 1945 that is taught to Germans in schools that might cause younger Germans to feel some aversion towards preparing to fight a land war against russia in eastern ukraine? Anything that maybe resulted in the premature deaths of millions of young german men, initially volunteers who were solicited at the secondary school level? Massive political differences and ultimate outcomes aside for each conflict, Germany becoming increasingly militarized has a poor track record when it comes to not getting extremely large numbers of teenage german boys killed in eastern Ukraine.
- le-mark 10mo ago
  Eighteen year olds in the US have to fill out a “selective services” form. This was for the draft, and continues in case the draft is ever reinstated. So in peace time not problem, in wartime? Different story.
  - huhkerrf 10mo ago
    Correction: Eighteen year old men have to register. Women don't.
- m000 10mo ago
  The problem here that this probably is only part of a larger society militarization plan. The guaranteed next step is to offer the volunteers a long term paid contract at the end of their term. This would probably be well above what they would be paid elsewhere (young men with no university degree, desperate enough to volunteer in the first place). Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society. What could possibly go wrong?
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria, Brazil, Chile, Mexico and Thailand each have active conscription [1]. The slippery slop you describe is far from inevitable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
    - m000 10mo ago
      You probably have no idea what you're talking about. Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary. It's more of a semi-unpleasant mandatory intermission in your life plans. Also, if you have decades of mandatory conscription then there is no slope to slip. Germany on the other hand is now on a slope, since they regress from a fully professional army back to conscription. How much down they will slip, remains to be seen.
      - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
        > Mandatory conscription Active != mandatory. > Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary You're seriously arguing that countries with mandatory conscription are less militarised than those with active (but not mandatory) conscription?
- anonym29 10mo ago
  Has a standing army of angry young men, resentful at their economic circumstances in Germany ever historically caused any problems?
kachapopopow 10mo ago
edit: nevermind, title changed?
enceladus06 10mo ago
Just build nukes if you are afraid of Russia then nuke them if they try to invade. Ukraine is not as smart and gave up its nukes in the early 90s, and is now in the middle of a war for the last couple years.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > Just build nukes I'm broadly sympathetic to the argument that the multipolar world we're in now makes a good case for nuclear weapons adoption. But Germany probably isn't the one Europe wants to arm itself. And even if it did, their Greens wouldn't allow it.
  - mk89 10mo ago
    Germany already hosts nuclear weapons. And there were talks with France/UK to build the nuclear shield or something like that. It's just a matter of time before that happens, because as of today, that's the only way you can reason with dictators.
    - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
      > Germany already hosts nuclear weapons So does Montana. That doesn’t give Helena any sovereignty points.
      - IAmBroom 10mo ago
        Apples to oranges. Montana:USA::Bavaria:Germany No one has suggested Bavaria become a nuclear power in its own right.
      - pseudalopex 10mo ago
        Their point was the Greens lacked the power you attributed to them I thought.
  - IAmBroom 10mo ago
    France and UK are already nuke powers. Who else before Germany? Turkey, Greece, Moldova? I get your joke about the "incident" 85 years ago, but really: Germany is as solid a choice as any, if there must be another.
mystraline 10mo ago
The article is using "voluntary" in a very questionable fashion. > Germany's parliament, the Bundestag, has voted to introduce voluntary military service... > The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. > The government says military service will be voluntary for as long as possible, but from July 2027, all 18-year-old men will have to take a medical exam to assess their fitness for possible military service. > a form of compulsory military service could be considered by the Bundestag. Well, that escalated quickly. There's nothing here that could be really described as "voluntary".
- baal80spam 10mo ago
  > The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    One, I'm not sure what American founding ideals have to do with Germany. Two, Germany, like most countries and frankly human populations, has a male surplus in its fighting-age population [1]. This is why, historically, large socities tended to wage war with men first. (Even those that e.g. held elite units in reserve, which undermines the usual biological argument.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Population_Pyramid_2024.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media...
    - throw310822 10mo ago
      The male surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army; and no, that is not the reason why men and not women go to war.
      - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
        > make surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army ...why would you populate your army solely with the surplus? The point is you have a buffer that you can burn without immediately impacting your demographics for the long term. > that is not the reason why men and not women go to war It's a serious theory [1]. (It's more correct to say the surplus and it share a common cause.) [1] https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931 https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931
llsf 10mo ago
France is doing something similar now.
A_D_E_P_T 10mo ago
[flagged]
- markus_zhang 10mo ago
  Can Germans elaborate on this? I have heard some stories but I don’t know the truth of them.
  - 439857498203 10mo ago
    [dead]
  - fabianholzer 10mo ago
    Yes, the billboard advertisement part is true. But billboards in Germany are fewer and smaller than in other parts of the world. And the Bundeswehr ad campaign is nothing that will convince anyone who would not be convinced otherwise already. If you notice the ads as a German citizen at all, you'll most likely shrug, or ask your self: Since. When. Is. It. Ok. To. Pretend. A. Single. Word. Forms. A. Sentence? (for context: the ad says "Wir. Dienen. Deutschland." which translates verbatim as "We. Serve. Germany." - which, if my English as a second language grammar knowledge does not fail me, would also make no grammatical sense in English. As for the rest, of course you see quite a few people that do not look like the von Trapp family singers, or whatever shaped your stereotype of how ethnic Germans are supposed to look like. Apropos ethnic Germans, historically we happen to be a two digit number of distinct tribes anyhow, and it still is suprisingly easy to piss one of the natives off by confusing them for a member of the wrong tribe. But I am digressing. What I can say, all ethnicity questions cast aside, the governments in the time that I am following the news (the very late Kohl era), which have been nine different now, are all quite the same in one way: kicking the can down the road and pulling up the ladder from above. The state/society/economy I grew up in had quite some substance of which it could coast off for some time. But as with all things that go down south: Gradually, then suddenly.
    - markus_zhang 10mo ago
      Thanks! I hope everything goes well for you. Might bring my kid for a visit in the future as my cousin studies music in one of the best schools there.
appreciatorBus 10mo ago
> "We don't want to spend half a year of our lives locked up in barracks, being trained in drill and obedience and learning to kill," the organisers of the protests wrote in a statement posted on social media. "War offers no prospects for the future and destroys our livelihoods." Is the idea that it’s better for your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?
- anonym29 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - crooked-v 10mo ago
    The problem is, if Russian takes over they'll just conscript you and send you to die in a ditch anyway.
    - anonym29 10mo ago
      Great, I'll go sign up to die in a ditch for a war I oppose to avoid being forced to die in a ditch for a war I oppose.
      - appreciatorBus 10mo ago
        It sounds like you believe life in western democracy is exactly the same as life in modern imperial Russia, like if you could choose, you would have no preference whatsoever?
        anonym29 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        crooked-v 10mo ago
        Russia, because just by existing there as a male in a certain age bracket you have a realistic chance of being tasered and beaten until you sign "voluntary" military service papers so that they can send you to die on the front lines of a war of conquest (https://theins.ru/en/society/277452 https://theins.ru/en/society/277452).
nicbou 10mo ago
To offer a bit of context, the same government just voted to raise current pensions at the expense of steep taxation hikes for current workers, made massive cuts to social services, and is now discussing military service. This generation is rightfully feeling like they're getting a sore deal.
- venturecruelty 10mo ago
  Classic move: make the kids struggle, then offer them a lifeline if they just put on a uniform. The GI bill is great, but you shouldn't have to step on an IED to go to college.
  - Garlef 10mo ago
    Nah... That's a cute idea but here's some actual data: https://www.bundeswehrkarriere.de/downloads/mannschaften/936 https://www.bundeswehrkarriere.de/downloads/mannschaften/936 tl;dr: Okay but it's not golden by any means.
    - flohofwoe 10mo ago
      FWIW for a lot of East German youths born into poor families that's pretty good money at 18 years age.
    - PeterStuer 10mo ago
      Got to love how they camo their letterhead.
  - throw310822 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - citrin_ru 10mo ago
      Hypersonic missiles is a distraction, the real danger currently comes from mass produced drones (both Shahed and FPV ones) and I’m afraid EU has no good defence against them.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
sunshine-o 10mo ago
This got to be the final scream of a dying regime. Not so long ago we were told a serious army has now to be a professional and highly trained army. Everything else was useless. But they seem to plan to just draft young people and fight some sort WWI a bit like the nightmare in Ukraine. But today Western Europe countries are not Ukraine. If they would engage in a war they would collapse into total chaos very quickly. Those are old, very divided and absolutely not resilient societies. Just cutting the electricity for a week would collapse the cities. Starting with people putting the buildings on fire because they do not know how dangerous candles are. "Training" young people for 6 months wouldn't change that. This is a bit like what happened in WWII when Germany attacked country like Belgium or France. They went right through it because there were a dissymmetry between the German who had it really tough for 20 years and the Belgian or Frenchman at the time. But the current head of NATO is a former HR at Unilever, so I guess he knows better.
- lm28469 10mo ago
  The alternative of doing nothing, pretending the world is the same as 15 years ago and praying for world peace doesn't seem like a better idea. If anything military service should have been kept everywhere in europe. Not for war, but for national cohesion, for some people it was the only time they'd get out of their little social bubble and stereotypes.
- luckys 10mo ago
  The speedy success of Germany invading France in 1940 had more to do with their use of radios and giving commanders on the field some latitude on how to accomplish objectives than with the consequences of the Versailles treaty on the population. The French Army and the British Expeditionary Force were more stuck in a WWI style of command from the top that proved vulnerable to speed. But it wasn't clear cut as the "fast attack" plan was initially rejected by the German top brass, themselves still stuck in the past.
KnuthIsGod 10mo ago
[flagged]
- Havoc 10mo ago
  At least it'll be executed well
SanjayMehta 10mo ago
[flagged]
euroderf 10mo ago
Leon Trotsky: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."
- cedws 10mo ago
  Send the older generations then. Why should Gen Z be forced to pay the price of the previous governments' poor decision making? Namely, in Germany, nurturing a authoritarian regime by decimating green energy initiatives in favor of Russian oil imports. Russia would never have taken such bold action if Europe responded strongly no later than 2014.
  - thomassmith65 10mo ago
    That point of view was popular in the Interwar period (the 1932 film 'Broken Lullaby' is a perfect example). It's an admirable attitude, but its popularity contributed to the outbreak of WWII.
  - egorfine 10mo ago
    > Send the older generations then. Why should Gen Z be forced to pay the price Yeah this is perfectly rational and logical. Hard to argue. Problem is, the other side (russia) will not be sending just the older generation.
    - IAmBroom 10mo ago
      OT1H, yes, Dad's Army won't be the most effective troops Germany has ever fielded. OTOH, pretty soon Russia won't have anything except the older gen to send (and oligarch's sons - haha, just kidding; they'll send women and children first!).
      - egorfine 10mo ago
        > soon Russia won't have anything I was confident about that in 2022. I was confident about that in 2023. I was confident about that in 2024. I was confident about that in 2025. I'm not sure about that anymore.
KellyCriterion 10mo ago
Germanys problem is mainly not the number of recruits: The didnt invest for decades, so structures in the background to handle all those additional young recruits are no more existing. Even if they would draw just 25% of evey year, they would not be able to manage it.
- sunshine-o 10mo ago
  > The didnt invest for decades, so structures in the background to handle all those additional young recruits are no more existing. Yes but remember that was the point. The career and trained militaries were spending most of their time schooling young people and were not focusing on capabilities. This is why most countries put an end on that nonsense. So right now you can be sure an enormous amount of personnel in the German army switched focused on running this new "Voluntary service". A voluntary service which will produce at best 1% of workable soldiers. This makes no sense.
  - KellyCriterion 10mo ago
    Clearly this country would have enough ressources to have a "professional army" like in many other countries; there are really enough peoply willingly "taking some action", also highly motivatd people would make a much better/stronger force than volounteers?
derelicta 10mo ago
I hope German teens are thrilled to fight America's wars
- OKRainbowKid 10mo ago
  Russia invading Europe would be America's war?
  - thomassmith65 10mo ago
    Is America allied with Russia or Europe in this scenario? That's probably not what the parent comment meant, though.
    - derelicta 10mo ago
      Not really. I meant that America has triggered this war, like pretty much all wars on this planet since the end of the global anti fascist war. Thus, Europeans being good little servants, they will die for Washington.
      - thomassmith65 10mo ago
        Congratulations, USSR, young people have forgotten you entirely! /s That said, it is still insultingly wrong to blame even America and the USSR together for starting 'all wars on the planet' since WWII. To quote the great historians Chris Hughes and Roland Orzabal: "everybody wants to rule the world"
        derelicta 10mo ago
        Honestly, even intra commie wars were also triggered by the US Empire, and for these, Soviets were extraordinary foolish, I will give you that. But I stand my ground; behind the vast majority of wars since WW2, there is the American architect.
        10mo ago
jiwidi 10mo ago
suddenly when war comes is only mandatory for man
- ekianjo 10mo ago
  "gender is a social construct" only goes so far...
  - akimbostrawman 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - moritzruth 10mo ago
    Gender is a social construct, biological sex is not. Confusingly, we use the same binary terms for both.
    - DrPimienta 10mo ago
      So there are some jobs that only a biological male can do, that a biological female is not qualified to do? If we made a list, which jobs do you think might be on it?
      - cindyllm 10mo ago
        [dead]
      - aspele 10mo ago
        Getting killed in war is a job much better suited to males. They are more disposable, especially now in the age of sperm banking.
        DrPimienta 10mo ago
        And also things like math, being doctors, and firemen
huntoa 10mo ago
Martin Sonneborn on this topic [3 mins]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJjaW4Bsleg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJjaW4Bsleg
jalapenos 10mo ago
[flagged]
- jijijijij 10mo ago
  > At least they, you know, die soon. They may very well live another 20 years and you have to pay their demise, too. Their generation smoked more, drank more alcohol, had a life full of asbestos, PCB and lead. It's gonna be expensive for us. We had our chance in 2020, but blew it because of silly ethics. I see little gratitude for the gigantic sacrifice the young generation made for boomer life. I hope the kidz won't forget next time someone eats a bat.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- ashoeafoot 10mo ago
  [dead]
- PeterStuer 10mo ago
  To be fair those boomers probably were subjected to non voluntary military service in their youth, and many of them now told to work longer before getting a pension while getting fired at 59.
- dang 10mo ago
  Please don't do this here. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46177825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46177825.
squigz 10mo ago
So many comments and sentiments in this thread are really not worthy of HN.
- fwn 10mo ago
  Your comment specifically, I believe, falls short of the ideal to get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic becomes more divisive. We should probably avoid posting shallow dismissals and remember that a good critical comment teaches us something. Additionally, as your comment leaves readers wondering which parts of the divided comment section you deem "worthy of HN" and which you do not, I cannot help but think of this ambivalence as a method to spark reactions. Another word for this method would be "to bait", I think.
- poisonborz 10mo ago
  What is the HN ethos anyway? The "common thought" and average HNer was different in 2007, 2015, 2025, and will be again rather different in 2035. One could say the "hacker ethics", love of freedom, tinkering goes beyond time, but this falls apart at any topic beyond that.
spwa4 10mo ago
WITH the option to make it mandatory by 5 different mechanisms, including options that do not involve lawmakers (but are not mentioned, essentially the executive (normally the chancellor) can also "activate" non-voluntary conscription under various conditions) Also the Bundestag agreed in advance to activate conscription if not enough volunteers can be found (which, given the results in France, seems about as certain as the sun rising tomorrow) In fact filling out the questionnaire at all seems risky.
wtcactus 10mo ago
“The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.” This is highly misandrist. I can’t believe that we are in 2025 and a - so called - democratic government is still denying women the opportunity to potentially go and die miserably in the front lines on equal footing with men. We can surely do better. Women and girls deserve more.
- oarfish 10mo ago
  Including women in this does have the additional hurdle that a constitutional amendment would be needed, which is less likely to pass, regardless of the merits.
  - wtcactus 10mo ago
    I can’t understand why women and male allies aren’t flooding the streets in protest to demand the constitution changes so that women are fully equal to men then. Surely that’s the most noble of causes.
    - IAmBroom 10mo ago
      "I want my chance to die young or be horribly mangled, just like men!" may be noble, but not very inspirational.
- The_President 10mo ago
  /s surely? Women stay behind or the population would face higher risk of collapse in heavy casualties otherwise.
  - PakistaniDenzel 10mo ago
    [flagged]
nickdothutton 10mo ago
Europe in general, most countries, are being shaken awake from a long slumber by a number of recent and current events.
- consumer451 10mo ago
  Agreed. This is a rational response to the USA's protective umbrella being discarded, and the end of NATO. Europe became far too complacent, and the change is going to be quite uncomfortable at the very least. Again, this is a very rational response and I applaud the German government for being realistic.
  - IAmGraydon 10mo ago
    You have a source for NATO ending, I’m sure?
    - consumer451 10mo ago
      Trump being re-elected was the death knell, let's be honest. We are on our own here now. The next few years will make or break us. Our only hope is European Federalization, at the very least militarily. I believe we can do it. We must. We have no other choice. As far as evidence, "generally waves hands around." See the Trump/Putin surrender proposal. Also, see: https://www.france24.com/en/video/20251206-us-threatens-withdrawal-from-nato-if-europe-doesn-t-take-defense-lead-by-2027 https://www.france24.com/en/video/20251206-us-threatens-with... Just that threat of weakness from the US side is the end of traditional NATO. US forces were what kept us together militarily. We MUST find the new path quickly. I post this with a tears dropping from my eyes, genuinely. No matter who is reelected in the USA in the future, the US-led post-war rules based order is over. Something new must take its place. It best be Democracy. We took it for granted all this time. This could its last chance. Here is some interesting reading: > The West’s Last Chance > How to Build a New Global Order Before It’s Too Late https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/wests-last-chance https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/wests-last-chan... - Alexander Stubb, President of Finland
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
sharts 10mo ago
Wait, their military was involuntary previously? Everyone currently serving didn’t choose to do this?
- jijijijij 10mo ago
  There was mandatory military service until 2011 when it was paused. Since then Germany had a purely professional army like the US. Mandatory military service was 9-12 months basic training, which could be objected on moral grounds. Objection meant doing alternative (civil) service for the time (e.g. working in a hospital, school, THW, etc.).
coolThingsFirst 10mo ago
The comments are so naive, in which world do you think Russia would beat Germany on german soil? Russians are locked in Ukraine and are barely making progress. Also with which army is this takeover of Europe supposed to happen with? Russia lost millions of its young men in Ukraine. Fake fears, being prepared is always nice but the paranoia is ridiculous. Even a US China coaliation couldn't threaten Europe domestically let alone Russia.
- egorfine 10mo ago
  As a Ukrainian I see this take as both perfectly logical and utterly naive at the same time.
- yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
  How many russian soldiers died in order for them to control Belarus? How many russian soldiers died in order for them to undermine European security by persuading the British electorate to vote for Brexit? How many russian soldiers died in order for them to have a US administration that is trying to force an allied country to capitulate to a genocidal terrorist regime? The Ukrainians are fighting a hot war today because they recognised and wished to release themselves from the shackles of russian soft power. War isn't only fought with tanks and bombs and guns.
rixed 10mo ago
I think we are too quick to believe this move is motivated by the threat of Russia suddenly unleashing hordes of tanks over Europe, so here is some data. Let's compare Russia's forces with that of Germany+Poland+UK+France+Italy+Spain (EU countries with a large population): Total population: RU=140M, EU=370M Population available for mil: RU=70M, EU=170M Present active mil: RU=1.3M, EU=1M Reserve: RU=2M, EU=1.4M Paramil: RU=250k, EU=380k Combat Aircrafts: RU=4k, EU=4k Tanks: RU=5.7k, EU=2k Armored Vhc: RU=130k, EU=340k Artillery: RU=16k, EU=2k Large combat vessels: RU=100, EU=80 Subs: RU=60, EU=40 The economics is more hairy to compare directly because there are so many parameters. The most stringent ones seems to be that RU has a lot of fiul, gaz and coal and an industrial network spread accross a vast land that's not easy to target, and of course a seemingly good relationship with China. Apart from that, I don't think the EU is partcularly weak as far as finance and manufacturing are concerned. Looking at those numbers, I do not believe that the sentiment that "Russia is going to invade the EU unless massive expenses in weaponry" holds a lot of water. The tremendous amount of efforts and finance that's been thrown at the military during the cold war was not aimed at invading the other side. I would even add that spending that much on the military is probably what the strategists in the Kremlin are hopping EU will do. After all, if they know the history of their own country, they must know what caused the fatal financial crisis that brought down the USSR in the 80s.
- Ylpertnodi 10mo ago
  > The most stringent ones seems to be that RU has a lot of fiul, gaz and coal and an industrial network spread accross a vast land that's not easy to target, Very recent Ukrainian drone self-defences prove otherwise - far away russian refineries are not so far away anymore. And, are very difficult to defend. Throw in an additional few partisans to mess up the railway system (russian lifeline) and I rather suspect a coup to happen soon.

126 points by petermcneeley 10mo ago

“The change means that all 18-year-olds in Germany will be sent a questionnaire from January 2026 asking if they are interested and willing to join the armed forces. The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.“ - all men have to fill out and return a form, I suppose this will work to increase recruitment. Doesn’t seem very controversial.

throw310822 10mo ago
Why do they have to fill it in and return it just to say no? Could this be used against them at some time in the future? And why women instead can just ignore it? Usually HN is very wary of the consequences of the state collecting data about its citizens and restricting freedoms in small steps. Is it not the case now?
- throwaway2027 10mo ago
  When push comes to shove, men and women aren't equal
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mystraline 10mo ago
    No, to a bunch of neoliberal elite politicians, women aren't equal. And those same politicians won't ever serve, nor compulsed to serve, and/or will shield their families from serving unless they really want to. But let's call it what it is: compulsed military service is slavery for the elite.
  - nothercastle 10mo ago
    When it comes to being drone operators or targets it’s probably a negligible difference
    - Balgair 10mo ago
      Actually you make a good point here. Women have better reaction times then men, so female drone operators, all else being equal, may be better at the job.
      - jadamson 10mo ago
        [flagged]
      - jeffrallen 10mo ago
        In my village's shooting club the women shoot just as well at the men, and quite a bit more consistently as well.
        nothercastle 10mo ago
        It’s mostly about ability to haul and dig as I understand it. I roles where you don’t need that as much strength is significantly less important
      - wtcactus 10mo ago
        Source?
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - platevoltage 10mo ago
    The hand to hand combat, super common in modern warfare, should probably be left up to the men. Great point.
  - c0balt 10mo ago
    to add to this, under German law they very much are different in regards to mandatory military service. Neither the old nor the new laws contain mandatory military service for women leading to mandatory conscription being only an issue for men.
- fabian2k 10mo ago
  Mandatory military service existed before in Germany, not all that long ago. So this is mostly returned to the same mechanisms as back then, though with the actual service being voluntary for now. And to include woman you'd have to change the constitution, as that part is specific to men.
alistairSH 10mo ago
They only recently (2011?) ended mandatory conscription so this is a pretty big about-face.
- aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
  Compulsory military service (or alternative national service) never ended in Germany; in 2011 it was only suspended.
  - alistairSH 10mo ago
    I don’t know the details… does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft?
    - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
      > does the suspension make the current state in Germany similar to the Selective Service requirement in the US? I don't know how the Selective Service requirement in the US works, so I can't answer this question. > Or is it “easy” for the German government to establish a draft? Such a (temporary) suspension can hypothetically terminated at any time by the government. The question is basically how the population will react. I guess if the suspension of the general conscription would be terminated by the government, there would be really furious public rallies (and I am rather certain that my boss would immediately attempt to approve a vacation request if I wanted to attend such a rally in Berlin if it happened during the work week - just as an "innocent" kind of support for this cause from behind the lines :-) ) because multiple generations got really radicalized against compulsory military service (I wrote about this topic at https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=46177817 ). This is why the German government currently attempts to approach the whole topic of quitting the suspension of compulsory military service so indirectly.
      - alistairSH 10mo ago
fasbiner 10mo ago
This may be too far of an obscure historical reference, but is there really nothing specific to German history and nothing within german civic education and contemporary national identity formation that might make this potentially more controversial? Hint:some of these events involved spheres of influence and control over resources in eastern europe!
- aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
  I think the much bigger issue is that the older generation (those who, say, turned 18 in the 70s) told the younger generation lots of really nasty stories about the cruel trials people had to endure who wanted to do alternative national service (Zivildienst) instead of military service. These formed the value system of many people in at least two generations ("Soldaten sind Mörder" [soldiers are murders]). EDIT: If you understand German, here is a song from 1972 about these brutal cross-examinations: > Franz Josef Degenhardt - Befragung eines Kriegsdienstverweigerers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTtMTcj8X0 Additionally, the participation of Germany in the first aggressive wars in Yugoslavia in 1999 and then in Afghanistan from 2001 on (before citizens were told that the Bundeswehr is only a defense army, and would never participate in an aggressive war) lead to a radicalization of another generation against the Bundeswehr - and yes, this generation eagerly listened to the above-mentioned horror stories of the older generations. It is even rumored that this next generation's radicalization against the Bundeswehr indirectly lead to the suspension of the compulsory military service in Germany in 2011.
  - fasbiner 10mo ago
    That's certainly some nuance there! I had in mind a more basic concept which due to legal restrictions in Germany maybe make thinking about it as part of German history and a geopolitical conflict likely to naturally reoccur is part of a Denkverbot. But I think you should legally be able to answer if you can think of anything between 1914 and 1945 that is taught to Germans in schools that might cause younger Germans to feel some aversion towards preparing to fight a land war against russia in eastern ukraine? Anything that maybe resulted in the premature deaths of millions of young german men, initially volunteers who were solicited at the secondary school level? Massive political differences and ultimate outcomes aside for each conflict, Germany becoming increasingly militarized has a poor track record when it comes to not getting extremely large numbers of teenage german boys killed in eastern Ukraine.
le-mark 10mo ago
Eighteen year olds in the US have to fill out a “selective services” form. This was for the draft, and continues in case the draft is ever reinstated. So in peace time not problem, in wartime? Different story.
- huhkerrf 10mo ago
  Correction: Eighteen year old men have to register. Women don't.
m000 10mo ago
The problem here that this probably is only part of a larger society militarization plan. The guaranteed next step is to offer the volunteers a long term paid contract at the end of their term. This would probably be well above what they would be paid elsewhere (young men with no university degree, desperate enough to volunteer in the first place). Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society. What could possibly go wrong?
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > Run the scheme for a few years, and you will have a large number of, young, high-school-level educated people that are financially dependent on the army. Thus, a militarized society Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria, Brazil, Chile, Mexico and Thailand each have active conscription [1]. The slippery slop you describe is far from inevitable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
  - m000 10mo ago
    You probably have no idea what you're talking about. Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary. It's more of a semi-unpleasant mandatory intermission in your life plans. Also, if you have decades of mandatory conscription then there is no slope to slip. Germany on the other hand is now on a slope, since they regress from a fully professional army back to conscription. How much down they will slip, remains to be seen.
    - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
      > Mandatory conscription Active != mandatory. > Mandatory conscription (which I have personally served) is for a fixed term, so your livelihood is not tied to the army paying your salary You're seriously arguing that countries with mandatory conscription are less militarised than those with active (but not mandatory) conscription?
anonym29 10mo ago
Has a standing army of angry young men, resentful at their economic circumstances in Germany ever historically caused any problems?

kachapopopow 10mo ago

edit: nevermind, title changed?

enceladus06 10mo ago

Just build nukes if you are afraid of Russia then nuke them if they try to invade. Ukraine is not as smart and gave up its nukes in the early 90s, and is now in the middle of a war for the last couple years.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> Just build nukes I'm broadly sympathetic to the argument that the multipolar world we're in now makes a good case for nuclear weapons adoption. But Germany probably isn't the one Europe wants to arm itself. And even if it did, their Greens wouldn't allow it.
- mk89 10mo ago
  Germany already hosts nuclear weapons. And there were talks with France/UK to build the nuclear shield or something like that. It's just a matter of time before that happens, because as of today, that's the only way you can reason with dictators.
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > Germany already hosts nuclear weapons So does Montana. That doesn’t give Helena any sovereignty points.
    - IAmBroom 10mo ago
      Apples to oranges. Montana:USA::Bavaria:Germany No one has suggested Bavaria become a nuclear power in its own right.
    - pseudalopex 10mo ago
      Their point was the Greens lacked the power you attributed to them I thought.
- IAmBroom 10mo ago
  France and UK are already nuke powers. Who else before Germany? Turkey, Greece, Moldova? I get your joke about the "incident" 85 years ago, but really: Germany is as solid a choice as any, if there must be another.

mystraline 10mo ago

The article is using "voluntary" in a very questionable fashion. > Germany's parliament, the Bundestag, has voted to introduce voluntary military service... > The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. > The government says military service will be voluntary for as long as possible, but from July 2027, all 18-year-old men will have to take a medical exam to assess their fitness for possible military service. > a form of compulsory military service could be considered by the Bundestag. Well, that escalated quickly. There's nothing here that could be really described as "voluntary".

baal80spam 10mo ago
> The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  One, I'm not sure what American founding ideals have to do with Germany. Two, Germany, like most countries and frankly human populations, has a male surplus in its fighting-age population [1]. This is why, historically, large socities tended to wage war with men first. (Even those that e.g. held elite units in reserve, which undermines the usual biological argument.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_Population_Pyramid_2024.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media...
  - throw310822 10mo ago
    The male surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army; and no, that is not the reason why men and not women go to war.
    - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
      > make surplus is a few tens of thousands, way to small to make up an army ...why would you populate your army solely with the surplus? The point is you have a buffer that you can burn without immediately impacting your demographics for the long term. > that is not the reason why men and not women go to war It's a serious theory [1]. (It's more correct to say the surplus and it share a common cause.) [1] https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931 https://link.springer.com/rwe/10.1007/978-3-319-19650-3_931

llsf 10mo ago

France is doing something similar now.

A_D_E_P_T 10mo ago

[flagged]

markus_zhang 10mo ago
Can Germans elaborate on this? I have heard some stories but I don’t know the truth of them.
- 439857498203 10mo ago
  [dead]
- fabianholzer 10mo ago
  Yes, the billboard advertisement part is true. But billboards in Germany are fewer and smaller than in other parts of the world. And the Bundeswehr ad campaign is nothing that will convince anyone who would not be convinced otherwise already. If you notice the ads as a German citizen at all, you'll most likely shrug, or ask your self: Since. When. Is. It. Ok. To. Pretend. A. Single. Word. Forms. A. Sentence? (for context: the ad says "Wir. Dienen. Deutschland." which translates verbatim as "We. Serve. Germany." - which, if my English as a second language grammar knowledge does not fail me, would also make no grammatical sense in English. As for the rest, of course you see quite a few people that do not look like the von Trapp family singers, or whatever shaped your stereotype of how ethnic Germans are supposed to look like. Apropos ethnic Germans, historically we happen to be a two digit number of distinct tribes anyhow, and it still is suprisingly easy to piss one of the natives off by confusing them for a member of the wrong tribe. But I am digressing. What I can say, all ethnicity questions cast aside, the governments in the time that I am following the news (the very late Kohl era), which have been nine different now, are all quite the same in one way: kicking the can down the road and pulling up the ladder from above. The state/society/economy I grew up in had quite some substance of which it could coast off for some time. But as with all things that go down south: Gradually, then suddenly.
  - markus_zhang 10mo ago
    Thanks! I hope everything goes well for you. Might bring my kid for a visit in the future as my cousin studies music in one of the best schools there.

appreciatorBus 10mo ago

> "We don't want to spend half a year of our lives locked up in barracks, being trained in drill and obedience and learning to kill," the organisers of the protests wrote in a statement posted on social media. "War offers no prospects for the future and destroys our livelihoods." Is the idea that it’s better for your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?

anonym29 10mo ago
[flagged]
- crooked-v 10mo ago
  The problem is, if Russian takes over they'll just conscript you and send you to die in a ditch anyway.
  - anonym29 10mo ago
    Great, I'll go sign up to die in a ditch for a war I oppose to avoid being forced to die in a ditch for a war I oppose.
    - appreciatorBus 10mo ago
      It sounds like you believe life in western democracy is exactly the same as life in modern imperial Russia, like if you could choose, you would have no preference whatsoever?
      - anonym29 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        crooked-v 10mo ago
        Russia, because just by existing there as a male in a certain age bracket you have a realistic chance of being tasered and beaten until you sign "voluntary" military service papers so that they can send you to die on the front lines of a war of conquest (https://theins.ru/en/society/277452 https://theins.ru/en/society/277452).

nicbou 10mo ago

To offer a bit of context, the same government just voted to raise current pensions at the expense of steep taxation hikes for current workers, made massive cuts to social services, and is now discussing military service. This generation is rightfully feeling like they're getting a sore deal.

venturecruelty 10mo ago
Classic move: make the kids struggle, then offer them a lifeline if they just put on a uniform. The GI bill is great, but you shouldn't have to step on an IED to go to college.
- Garlef 10mo ago
  Nah... That's a cute idea but here's some actual data: https://www.bundeswehrkarriere.de/downloads/mannschaften/936 https://www.bundeswehrkarriere.de/downloads/mannschaften/936 tl;dr: Okay but it's not golden by any means.
  - flohofwoe 10mo ago
    FWIW for a lot of East German youths born into poor families that's pretty good money at 18 years age.
  - PeterStuer 10mo ago
    Got to love how they camo their letterhead.
- throw310822 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - citrin_ru 10mo ago
    Hypersonic missiles is a distraction, the real danger currently comes from mass produced drones (both Shahed and FPV ones) and I’m afraid EU has no good defence against them.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

sunshine-o 10mo ago

This got to be the final scream of a dying regime. Not so long ago we were told a serious army has now to be a professional and highly trained army. Everything else was useless. But they seem to plan to just draft young people and fight some sort WWI a bit like the nightmare in Ukraine. But today Western Europe countries are not Ukraine. If they would engage in a war they would collapse into total chaos very quickly. Those are old, very divided and absolutely not resilient societies. Just cutting the electricity for a week would collapse the cities. Starting with people putting the buildings on fire because they do not know how dangerous candles are. "Training" young people for 6 months wouldn't change that. This is a bit like what happened in WWII when Germany attacked country like Belgium or France. They went right through it because there were a dissymmetry between the German who had it really tough for 20 years and the Belgian or Frenchman at the time. But the current head of NATO is a former HR at Unilever, so I guess he knows better.

lm28469 10mo ago
The alternative of doing nothing, pretending the world is the same as 15 years ago and praying for world peace doesn't seem like a better idea. If anything military service should have been kept everywhere in europe. Not for war, but for national cohesion, for some people it was the only time they'd get out of their little social bubble and stereotypes.
luckys 10mo ago
The speedy success of Germany invading France in 1940 had more to do with their use of radios and giving commanders on the field some latitude on how to accomplish objectives than with the consequences of the Versailles treaty on the population. The French Army and the British Expeditionary Force were more stuck in a WWI style of command from the top that proved vulnerable to speed. But it wasn't clear cut as the "fast attack" plan was initially rejected by the German top brass, themselves still stuck in the past.

KnuthIsGod 10mo ago

[flagged]

Havoc 10mo ago
At least it'll be executed well

SanjayMehta 10mo ago

[flagged]

euroderf 10mo ago

Leon Trotsky: "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

cedws 10mo ago
Send the older generations then. Why should Gen Z be forced to pay the price of the previous governments' poor decision making? Namely, in Germany, nurturing a authoritarian regime by decimating green energy initiatives in favor of Russian oil imports. Russia would never have taken such bold action if Europe responded strongly no later than 2014.
- thomassmith65 10mo ago
  That point of view was popular in the Interwar period (the 1932 film 'Broken Lullaby' is a perfect example). It's an admirable attitude, but its popularity contributed to the outbreak of WWII.
- egorfine 10mo ago
  > Send the older generations then. Why should Gen Z be forced to pay the price Yeah this is perfectly rational and logical. Hard to argue. Problem is, the other side (russia) will not be sending just the older generation.
  - IAmBroom 10mo ago
    OT1H, yes, Dad's Army won't be the most effective troops Germany has ever fielded. OTOH, pretty soon Russia won't have anything except the older gen to send (and oligarch's sons - haha, just kidding; they'll send women and children first!).
    - egorfine 10mo ago
      > soon Russia won't have anything I was confident about that in 2022. I was confident about that in 2023. I was confident about that in 2024. I was confident about that in 2025. I'm not sure about that anymore.

KellyCriterion 10mo ago

Germanys problem is mainly not the number of recruits: The didnt invest for decades, so structures in the background to handle all those additional young recruits are no more existing. Even if they would draw just 25% of evey year, they would not be able to manage it.

sunshine-o 10mo ago
> The didnt invest for decades, so structures in the background to handle all those additional young recruits are no more existing. Yes but remember that was the point. The career and trained militaries were spending most of their time schooling young people and were not focusing on capabilities. This is why most countries put an end on that nonsense. So right now you can be sure an enormous amount of personnel in the German army switched focused on running this new "Voluntary service". A voluntary service which will produce at best 1% of workable soldiers. This makes no sense.
- KellyCriterion 10mo ago
  Clearly this country would have enough ressources to have a "professional army" like in many other countries; there are really enough peoply willingly "taking some action", also highly motivatd people would make a much better/stronger force than volounteers?

derelicta 10mo ago

I hope German teens are thrilled to fight America's wars

OKRainbowKid 10mo ago
Russia invading Europe would be America's war?
- thomassmith65 10mo ago
  Is America allied with Russia or Europe in this scenario? That's probably not what the parent comment meant, though.
  - derelicta 10mo ago
    Not really. I meant that America has triggered this war, like pretty much all wars on this planet since the end of the global anti fascist war. Thus, Europeans being good little servants, they will die for Washington.
    - thomassmith65 10mo ago
      Congratulations, USSR, young people have forgotten you entirely! /s That said, it is still insultingly wrong to blame even America and the USSR together for starting 'all wars on the planet' since WWII. To quote the great historians Chris Hughes and Roland Orzabal: "everybody wants to rule the world"
      - derelicta 10mo ago
        Honestly, even intra commie wars were also triggered by the US Empire, and for these, Soviets were extraordinary foolish, I will give you that. But I stand my ground; behind the vast majority of wars since WW2, there is the American architect.
        10mo ago

jiwidi 10mo ago

suddenly when war comes is only mandatory for man

ekianjo 10mo ago
"gender is a social construct" only goes so far...
- akimbostrawman 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- moritzruth 10mo ago
  Gender is a social construct, biological sex is not. Confusingly, we use the same binary terms for both.
  - DrPimienta 10mo ago
    So there are some jobs that only a biological male can do, that a biological female is not qualified to do? If we made a list, which jobs do you think might be on it?
    - cindyllm 10mo ago
      [dead]
    - aspele 10mo ago
      Getting killed in war is a job much better suited to males. They are more disposable, especially now in the age of sperm banking.
      - DrPimienta 10mo ago
        And also things like math, being doctors, and firemen

huntoa 10mo ago

Martin Sonneborn on this topic [3 mins]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJjaW4Bsleg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJjaW4Bsleg

jalapenos 10mo ago

[flagged]

jijijijij 10mo ago
> At least they, you know, die soon. They may very well live another 20 years and you have to pay their demise, too. Their generation smoked more, drank more alcohol, had a life full of asbestos, PCB and lead. It's gonna be expensive for us. We had our chance in 2020, but blew it because of silly ethics. I see little gratitude for the gigantic sacrifice the young generation made for boomer life. I hope the kidz won't forget next time someone eats a bat.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
ashoeafoot 10mo ago
[dead]
PeterStuer 10mo ago
To be fair those boomers probably were subjected to non voluntary military service in their youth, and many of them now told to work longer before getting a pension while getting fired at 59.
dang 10mo ago
Please don't do this here. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46177825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46177825.

squigz 10mo ago

So many comments and sentiments in this thread are really not worthy of HN.

fwn 10mo ago
Your comment specifically, I believe, falls short of the ideal to get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic becomes more divisive. We should probably avoid posting shallow dismissals and remember that a good critical comment teaches us something. Additionally, as your comment leaves readers wondering which parts of the divided comment section you deem "worthy of HN" and which you do not, I cannot help but think of this ambivalence as a method to spark reactions. Another word for this method would be "to bait", I think.
poisonborz 10mo ago
What is the HN ethos anyway? The "common thought" and average HNer was different in 2007, 2015, 2025, and will be again rather different in 2035. One could say the "hacker ethics", love of freedom, tinkering goes beyond time, but this falls apart at any topic beyond that.

spwa4 10mo ago

WITH the option to make it mandatory by 5 different mechanisms, including options that do not involve lawmakers (but are not mentioned, essentially the executive (normally the chancellor) can also "activate" non-voluntary conscription under various conditions) Also the Bundestag agreed in advance to activate conscription if not enough volunteers can be found (which, given the results in France, seems about as certain as the sun rising tomorrow) In fact filling out the questionnaire at all seems risky.

wtcactus 10mo ago

“The form will be mandatory for men and voluntary for women.” This is highly misandrist. I can’t believe that we are in 2025 and a - so called - democratic government is still denying women the opportunity to potentially go and die miserably in the front lines on equal footing with men. We can surely do better. Women and girls deserve more.

oarfish 10mo ago
Including women in this does have the additional hurdle that a constitutional amendment would be needed, which is less likely to pass, regardless of the merits.
- wtcactus 10mo ago
  I can’t understand why women and male allies aren’t flooding the streets in protest to demand the constitution changes so that women are fully equal to men then. Surely that’s the most noble of causes.
  - IAmBroom 10mo ago
    "I want my chance to die young or be horribly mangled, just like men!" may be noble, but not very inspirational.
The_President 10mo ago
/s surely? Women stay behind or the population would face higher risk of collapse in heavy casualties otherwise.
- PakistaniDenzel 10mo ago
  [flagged]

nickdothutton 10mo ago

Europe in general, most countries, are being shaken awake from a long slumber by a number of recent and current events.

consumer451 10mo ago
Agreed. This is a rational response to the USA's protective umbrella being discarded, and the end of NATO. Europe became far too complacent, and the change is going to be quite uncomfortable at the very least. Again, this is a very rational response and I applaud the German government for being realistic.
- IAmGraydon 10mo ago
  You have a source for NATO ending, I’m sure?
  - consumer451 10mo ago
    Trump being re-elected was the death knell, let's be honest. We are on our own here now. The next few years will make or break us. Our only hope is European Federalization, at the very least militarily. I believe we can do it. We must. We have no other choice. As far as evidence, "generally waves hands around." See the Trump/Putin surrender proposal. Also, see: https://www.france24.com/en/video/20251206-us-threatens-withdrawal-from-nato-if-europe-doesn-t-take-defense-lead-by-2027 https://www.france24.com/en/video/20251206-us-threatens-with... Just that threat of weakness from the US side is the end of traditional NATO. US forces were what kept us together militarily. We MUST find the new path quickly. I post this with a tears dropping from my eyes, genuinely. No matter who is reelected in the USA in the future, the US-led post-war rules based order is over. Something new must take its place. It best be Democracy. We took it for granted all this time. This could its last chance. Here is some interesting reading: > The West’s Last Chance > How to Build a New Global Order Before It’s Too Late https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/wests-last-chance https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/wests-last-chan... - Alexander Stubb, President of Finland

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

sharts 10mo ago

Wait, their military was involuntary previously? Everyone currently serving didn’t choose to do this?

jijijijij 10mo ago
There was mandatory military service until 2011 when it was paused. Since then Germany had a purely professional army like the US. Mandatory military service was 9-12 months basic training, which could be objected on moral grounds. Objection meant doing alternative (civil) service for the time (e.g. working in a hospital, school, THW, etc.).

coolThingsFirst 10mo ago

The comments are so naive, in which world do you think Russia would beat Germany on german soil? Russians are locked in Ukraine and are barely making progress. Also with which army is this takeover of Europe supposed to happen with? Russia lost millions of its young men in Ukraine. Fake fears, being prepared is always nice but the paranoia is ridiculous. Even a US China coaliation couldn't threaten Europe domestically let alone Russia.

egorfine 10mo ago
As a Ukrainian I see this take as both perfectly logical and utterly naive at the same time.
yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
How many russian soldiers died in order for them to control Belarus? How many russian soldiers died in order for them to undermine European security by persuading the British electorate to vote for Brexit? How many russian soldiers died in order for them to have a US administration that is trying to force an allied country to capitulate to a genocidal terrorist regime? The Ukrainians are fighting a hot war today because they recognised and wished to release themselves from the shackles of russian soft power. War isn't only fought with tanks and bombs and guns.

rixed 10mo ago

I think we are too quick to believe this move is motivated by the threat of Russia suddenly unleashing hordes of tanks over Europe, so here is some data. Let's compare Russia's forces with that of Germany+Poland+UK+France+Italy+Spain (EU countries with a large population): Total population: RU=140M, EU=370M Population available for mil: RU=70M, EU=170M Present active mil: RU=1.3M, EU=1M Reserve: RU=2M, EU=1.4M Paramil: RU=250k, EU=380k Combat Aircrafts: RU=4k, EU=4k Tanks: RU=5.7k, EU=2k Armored Vhc: RU=130k, EU=340k Artillery: RU=16k, EU=2k Large combat vessels: RU=100, EU=80 Subs: RU=60, EU=40 The economics is more hairy to compare directly because there are so many parameters. The most stringent ones seems to be that RU has a lot of fiul, gaz and coal and an industrial network spread accross a vast land that's not easy to target, and of course a seemingly good relationship with China. Apart from that, I don't think the EU is partcularly weak as far as finance and manufacturing are concerned. Looking at those numbers, I do not believe that the sentiment that "Russia is going to invade the EU unless massive expenses in weaponry" holds a lot of water. The tremendous amount of efforts and finance that's been thrown at the military during the cold war was not aimed at invading the other side. I would even add that spending that much on the military is probably what the strategists in the Kremlin are hopping EU will do. After all, if they know the history of their own country, they must know what caused the fatal financial crisis that brought down the USSR in the 80s.

Ylpertnodi 10mo ago
> The most stringent ones seems to be that RU has a lot of fiul, gaz and coal and an industrial network spread accross a vast land that's not easy to target, Very recent Ukrainian drone self-defences prove otherwise - far away russian refineries are not so far away anymore. And, are very difficult to defend. Throw in an additional few partisans to mess up the railway system (russian lifeline) and I rather suspect a coup to happen soon.