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Accepting US car standards would risk European lives
- ExoticPearTree 11mo ago[flagged]
- sumedh 11mo agoIf the US can build safer cars for everyone, the EU will have no objections.
- ExoticPearTree 11mo ago[flagged]
- sumedh 11mo agoDid you even read the article?
- ExoticPearTree 11mo agoYes. It started with the BS of "US would undermine the EU’s global leadership in road safety, public health, climate policy and competitiveness.". The only thing the EU has a global leadership is killing everything with regulations and bureaucracy.
- sumedh 11mo agoCan you share your sources or data where it says US is safer in terms of road safety.?
- ExoticPearTree 11mo agoHere, I googled it for you: "The European Union generally has higher road safety standards than the US, resulting in significantly lower fatality rates. The EU mandates stricter vehicle safety features, including automated emergency braking, and has more stringent traffic laws regarding speed, seat belts, and drunk driving. In contrast, the US has higher average vehicle weights and a less consistent application of safety regulations." and it proves my point: the EU just regulates stuff to death.
- neilalexander 11mo agoEU legislation requires a number of design considerations for pedestrian and cyclist collisions, like specific energy absorption requirements for front-impact and side-impact protection, restrictions on sharp corners/steep angles that could concentrate impact forces, minimum clearance around hard internal structures, mandatory ADAS (automated emergency braking, lane departure warnings) etc. Not saying that US cars are "not safe" in a binary fashion but for the most part these things are either optional or unregulated in the US.
- ExoticPearTree 11mo agoYeah, not a fan of cyclists. And it's kind of braindead to have my car break because if I hit a pedestrian somehow it is its job to absorb the impact. Maybe cyclists and pedestrians should be more mindful of their surroundings. The EU regulations have killed all the nice things about cars: straight lines, retractable headlights and so on.
- saubeidl 11mo agoThe two ton deadly weapon is definitely the one at fault, not the person just living life. There is no nice things about cars.
- neilalexander 11mo agoYou know what else will be braindead in your nice world? The child who runs out in front of a car after a rigid tight-angled metal corner drives into their skull. These regulations aren't about blame or "drivers/pedestrians/cyclists should be more aware!", they're about reducing or avoiding as much harm as possible when things don't go to plan and an accident happens.
- ExoticPearTree 11mo agoI guess you can ask the parents why the kid was unsupervised, no? Not blame the car.
- 11mo ago
- ricardobeat 11mo agoBecause of safety standards? It’s the whole point of the article. You can absolutely have unidirectional trade, countries produce a different array of goods and these are not bartering deals.
- kelnos 11mo agoSure you can. I'm not even sure why I need to support this statement. You can have any kind of trade you want. In the longer term, these sorts of things are governed more by demand than anything else. Sure, some governments might sometimes enact protectionist policies, but if most people in a country think the cars made by their domestic car companies are garbage, they're going to end up with a government that allows cars from other countries in.
- georgefrowny 11mo agoIf the EU cars aren't "safe enough" for the US then sure. Some of it is political silly buggers and protectionism but at the end of the day countries (or unions of countries) can set their own rules. If the US wants to sell cars to the EU, they can. Plenty of countries export cars to the EU just fine. It's not the EU's fault that American car manufacturers make dangerous vehicles. It's also not American car manufacturer's fault that European cities and roads are often smaller and Europeans have less appetite for road deaths. But it is their fault if they want to export to that market without making any effort to design suitable cars for it. American exporters aren't granted a God-given right to inflict American standards in the rest of the world.
- ExoticPearTree 11mo agoHow are US made vehicles dangerous?
- georgefrowny 11mo agoIf they don't meet EU safety standards, they are, by definition, legally unsafe for sale in the EU. Front sightlines are a common example given for larger pickups and SUVs. Pedestrian outcomes in collisions are also given more weight in the EU standards (which is why you can't buy a Cybertruck). American semi trucks are also generally considered unsafe for that reason plus overall length - nearly all EU and UK HGVs are cabover models. There's no rule againt US-made vehicles. It's just that many vehicle models that happen to be made and sold in the US don't meet safety requirements in other places. You can well argue that EU vehicle standards are excessively strict (many EU residents may agree or disagree on various aspects), but coming at it from "very unfair trade, it's a huge deficit, sad!" angle seems more like simping for car manufacturers then reasonable public safety policy tuning.
- ExoticPearTree 11mo ago> nearly all EU and UK HGVs are cabover models and > There's no rule against US-made vehicles. It feels very much an anti-US rule to me.
- sd9 11mo agoThis is nothing to do with trade. If region X happily produces and sells rotten meat, no other region is obligated to trade with them. But region X might choose to import non-rotten meat if they want.
- Ekaros 11mo agoFree trade. Any products that fulfil local safety standards should be allowed to be sold. Just because USA doesn't want to make cars that fulfil European standard does not mean they should be able to get away with those.
- tormeh 11mo agoObviously. Have you seen the Cybertruck? But I guess this is the price of the US remaining in NATO.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- willvarfar 11mo agoI would guess it is a tariff thing rather than NATO. Is anyone in Europe really believing the USA still has our back?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- tormeh 11mo agoMaybe. Maybe not. The uncertainty has value in and of itself, assuming Russia et al. experience the same uncertainty.
- herbst 11mo agoDefinitely no. At least not where I am from. America is just as bad s China, Russia or all the other freaks terrorising our world. Edit:// I also don't know when this believe ever should have existed. Or why it would have existed in the first place
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- wongarsu 11mo agoThe US has been like that for a long time. But Western European and American interests were well aligned for a couple decades. First the whole WW2 business. Then Western Europe needed funds for rebuilding and a strong deterance against further expansion of the Soviet Union, while the US felt threatened by the idea of communism. Then in the early 90s we had a couple years where we had common ground in commercializing and integrating post-Soviet states. During the Bush and Obama eras Europe was at least important as a staging ground for war in the Middle East, but the US wants to get away from putting boots on the ground there. But now most of the common ground is gone, and the gloves are coming off
- 28304283409234 11mo ago"Since 2010, EU cardeaths decreased with -36%, US cardeaths increased by +30%"
- herbst 11mo agoWhat a time to be alive! (For Europeans)
- guardian5x 11mo agoWell not for long, if the US pressures Europe to go back on these
- herbst 11mo agoThere are several "American" cars interesting for our market they talk about when they talk about importing American cars (ex. Toyotas) it's usually not the kind of car you Americans think about, and not much to worry for us ...
- CalRobert 11mo agoNotJustBikes just put out a video about this issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I A couple years ago he also made a video about these trucks more broadly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo What's truly maddening is how many of these vehicles which _do not_ meet European safety standards are _already_ in Europe. Walk around Hilversum in the Netherlands and you will see plenty of Dodge Rams (mostly 1500's, but there's even a 2500 Dually usually parked on the sidewalk ("pavement "for Brits) where my kids used to go to school). They're imported under "Individual Vehicle Approval" rules, exempting them from type safety requirements, and on top of that are almost always registered as "business vehicles" (you can tell from the V plate) which means they pay an absolute pittance in tax. I moved here to get away from American kindercrushers (among other reasons) and I am profoundly concerned that Europe is being invaded by these machines. (Edit) Worth noting is that a lot of Dutch street design is based on the idea that people _can_ share space with cars in dense, low speed environments, but that assumption flies out the window when the vehicles are so large you can't even see a kid walking or biking to school. Further edit - source - https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/dodge-ram-registrations-surge-in-europe-prompting-calls-for-regulatory-action/ https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/dodge-ram-registrati... 5,000 Dodge Rams imported in to Europe in 2023 alone.
- consp 11mo agoAfaik the payout is determined by your insurance, not the opposing party if you are not the cause. They will usually just stick to the standards set by the companies and not argue. They are all business vehicles as the premiums would be so insane no person would pay it (which is a hint why they should not be in the road). The problem comes when the crash out costs the business and then you get nothing due to type of insurance (pretty much we pay nothing you pay everything yourself), or the ability of companies to fight endless court battles which your insurance likely does not cover. My way of middle fingering them is reporting them every time they are either on the curb when there is a parking spot (not legal, blocking pedestrian access is only partially legal when there is no parking pace nearby and you leave enough space), or when they overextend onto the road which is a judgement call and up to the enforcing officer. You also need to keep notice of people trying to get the municipality to widen parking spots and block that.
- willvarfar 11mo agoThe article says road deaths in USA are up 30% over last 15 years and links to https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-02/2024%20NRSS%20Progress%20Report.pdf https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-02/2.... That doc talks a lot about initiatives but what is the normal American's sense of what's going on on the street?
- echelon 11mo agoAmericans want big cars. American regulations created a dichotomy where there's no middle ground. Big car or sour cream dollop with no space and no power. Americans want big because big means "safety". An SUV feels safer next to the semi than a Smart car. They also want big to haul the occasional furniture between moves, go on the occasional road trip, bring all the gear when camping, or bring back a massive shopping haul. American housing is way less dense outside the cities. There's no reason for a compact car if you live in the burbs apart from gas mileage. At the same time, more and more people want to build bike lanes and people infra near roads. "Strong Towns" movement, etc. We're putting more bicyclists on the roads next to big cars now.
- MarkMarine 11mo agoThat is not the only reason for a big car. You have to find special forward facing child seats to put 3 wide in a Tesla model 3 rear row, then do yoga to try to insert the children into them. To run the child seats facing backwards as long as possible, you need to be something like 5’4” or less to be comfortable with 2 seats in the back. That’s pretty standard in the “normal” sized car market, having a SUV or a minivan makes sense considering that. I know. Sold my Tesla, now drive a Land Cruiser. A small car is just an exercise in pain when you have kids and need a car to get everywhere. If I had safe bike lanes to get the kids to school and practice and the grocery store, I’d just have an urban arrow… but I’m not contending with the aforementioned kindercrushers that aren’t looking for cyclists and risking my kids with the way our streets are designed. I would happily support changes that fix this, but this is the world we’re in as parents.
- 11mo ago
- sigmoid10 11mo ago>EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%, with pedestrian deaths up 80% and cyclist deaths up 50% I didn't know this, but it is absolutely crazy. Every EU politician who tries to subvert car safety should be dismissed and tried for endangering public safety.
- CalRobert 11mo agoThey need to prop up dying German car companies, and are OK with using European lives as collateral.
- raverbashing 11mo agoAs much as German car companies suck it's not them that are road killers
- CalRobert 11mo agoAmong other issues, Volkswagen killed roughly 1200 people by cheating on their emissions tests. https://lae.mit.edu/2024/06/28/study-quantifies-premature-deaths-in-europe-resulting-from-volkswagens-excess-emissions/ https://lae.mit.edu/2024/06/28/study-quantifies-premature-de...
- raverbashing 11mo agoBesides the whataboutism, this is 1200 premature deaths (of mostly frail people). As much as I'm sensible to the topic of air pollution, putting that number closer to the number of, I dunno, premature deaths attributable to Coal power plants will give a more realistic view of the problem
- bluecalm 11mo agoI don't know man. Most big SUVs on EU roads are German. Same goes for "sport" cars. While American trucks are terrible the crazies in BMWs and Mercedes SUVs with huge engines have more impact (as they are more of them). EU regulators bent over to German companies allowing those cars on the road without additional restrictions. We all pay for that.
- fsh 11mo agoUS car regulations are weirdly inconsistent. Sometimes they are incredibly strict. You can't have a convex left side mirror and the right one has to carry a stupid warning label. Importing non-antique foreign cars is practically impossible. But then, some obviously unsafe features, such as indicators in the same color as the rear lights, are perfectly legal.
- barrkel 11mo agoThe non-convex side mirror almost got me into an accident the first rental car I drove in the US. I was expecting to see more of the road than I did.
- aurareturn 11mo agosuch as indicators in the same color as the rear lights, are perfectly legal. My goodness this drives me crazy. Why do cars do this?
- sznio 11mo agoLess lights is less cost. On European streets the easiest way to detect an American-designed car is that they only have one reverse light, the bare minimum. Only suitable as an indicator to the driver behind you. Ever considered trying to reverse into a parking spot without any streetlight nearby? Reversing blind is awesome! In any European car you get two lights, not in the center but in the corners so you can actually see stuff in your side mirrors while parking.
- PinguTS 11mo agoFor a long time many German made car like from Audi, Seat, VW, BMW hat just one reverse light. On the left side is the fog light and on the right side is the reversing light.
- consp 11mo agoThis is correct, though wat probably is meant is that US cars (or dual designed cars) have two spots with only the right one filled in the EU and a separate fog light with only the left one filled. I had a Ford Fiesta with only one reverse light and put in another to get a bit more light when reversing and my assumption is this is more common on US designed vehicles (though the Fiesta was designed in either the UK or Germany but you get the jist).
- mentalgear 11mo agoCompelling arguments, particularly regarding the proliferation of oversized American trucks - such as the Tesla Cybertruck monstrosity - which are predominantly used in urban areas and designed less for practicality and more to assert dominance on the road, at the expense of other users. Adopting such standards in Europe risks accelerating the "bulkinzation" and "truckification" of our roads. This would not only strain already limited space for essential transportation and parking, but also severely increase risks to pedestrian and standard vehicle safety, and in general bring a more hostile road/societal environment a la American "predator capitalism" exemplified.
- leobg 11mo agoAgree with your points. Trucks are a tragedy of the commons kindof thing. I just dislike that you’re singling out Cybertruck. It’s not bigger than the Doge Ram, F150 or a Hummer. Big trucks happen to be a popular market in the US. If you build cars in the US, you’ll have to serve that market. Even more so if your goal is to prove that an EV can be anything that an ICE can be, and more.
- arjie 11mo agoIt's got to be a nightmare to drive these large American cars in Europe. The streets really aren't the most accommodating for them. I rented a Mercedes V-class minivan for my family and friends to drive to a wedding in the UK and that was such a pain in London. I've never driven such a large vehicle in London before and I probably never will again. Should've just taken the train out to some far off spot before renting the car. We also had a wedding to go to in France where we drove a Citroen C4. To be honest, if these weddings weren't so far from railway stations and we didn't have to transport so many people together I'd never have done it. And both these cars were tiny compared to the GMC Sierras or Cadillac Escalades you see on San Francisco streets. I can only conclude that anyone who drives an American-size vehicle in these places is a masochist. It cannot be fun. No, not even to ride in while someone else drives.
- reddalo 11mo agoSome municipalities are also working to enforce a limit on the size of cars that can get into the city. Good luck diriving those American cars in Europe. But still, I wish they would ban them.
- Ylpertnodi 11mo ago> I can only conclude that anyone who drives an American-size vehicle in these places is a masochist. It cannot be fun. US soldiers/DOD etc PCS'd to EU manage (not always well). And, us EUians get the advantage of seeing just how disgracefully oversized US cars and trucks are. Aside: No yellow indicators? I'd rather US red ones than the 1"x3" mini-yellow-indicators that are becoming more common.
- jeroenhd 11mo agoThe way these imported cars are parked and driven don't really seem to indicate any masochism. The drivers mostly seem to make their oversized car everyone else's problem, not taking lanes too seriously, double parking by default, and of course blocking both the road and the sidewalk with the overhang of their trucks.
- Tade0 11mo ago
- mkornaukhov 11mo agoIt is strange that road deaths have been compared in the past, but protection from air pollution has been discussed since 2026. It is noteworthy that, according to IQAir, the air in the United States is less polluted than in most EU countries.
- LordHeini 11mo agoYes but that is due to the vastly different population density. The USA has 34 people per square km while Germany has 234. So pollution per capita would be a better metric.
- drstewart 11mo agoThe air you breathe is the same regardless of how many people stand next to you also breathing it.
- branko_d 11mo agoBut only if they stand. If they start driving, the situation changes dramatically!
- tialaramex 11mo agoActually if you're standing next to people the air you breathe in also has some of their exhaust gases in it, in this case slightly elevated CO2. If there's a dozen people in a small meeting room with the windows closed and no AC the air quality is significantly worse in that room than it would be say, stood on the roof... unless you're in the middle of a major city where maybe the air on the roof is full of exhaust from motor vehicles, hence legislation to restrict vehicle exhaust.
- herbst 11mo agoThe average air quality in all of the US is not as bad as in some European countries?
- drstewart 11mo ago
- teekert 11mo agoI once rented a small Kia (cheapest car I could get), drove from Houston to New Orleans and back. Apart from my eye balls popping at the sight of all the weapons on people and in shops, seeing some of the most obese people ever in my life (even in commercials it's ok to be obese), the 3x portions of all the food, and the variety of [drive-through-x for x in [ATM, pharmacy, funeral, etc]], I was in constant fear of someone not noticing my tiny Kia and driving over me. I was stopped by police while taking a walk and shouted at and treated like a criminal when walking in to a Wendy's drive through (even though only the drive through was open at that hour!) But, other than that, the people were incredibly kind! The culture shock though... It is very hard to imagine if you've never been there. I think as someone from western Europe I have more in common with people from Thailand. Cars are really a must-have in the US, biking is just a hobby. It's more the other way around here. Everybody is a "cyclist" (not even a word we use here) some of the time. It means "carists" have respect and understanding of how it is on a bike, and drive carefully around people on bikes (in general, there are always exceptions). Our infrastructure and law demands it (ie, a car-owner is always financially responsible in an accident with a pedestrian or person on a bike here, insurance for this is mandatory). Here people in massive US sized cars are really seen as anti-social, in general I'd say. Hope it stays that way. For now I think some of those cars can't even fit into city-center parking garages here (ie [0], btw if you look around there you see separated bike lanes, crossings where pedestrians always have priority (ignoring that is instant fine), very narrow lanes for cars. Go forward in time and you see they added "statues" that look like they are about to cross the street to make drivers aware of this.) [0] https://maps.app.goo.gl/tVaeHa4SNAz3iQ4x9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/tVaeHa4SNAz3iQ4x9
- teruakohatu 11mo ago> I was stopped by police while taking a walk and shouted at and treated like a criminal when walking in to a Wendy's drive through I live in a very bike friendly country, so culturally closer to Europe in terms of transport, but if you walked into a drive through you may well be stopped by police. Drive throughs have long since stopped serving pedestrians. Generally anyone trying this is inebriated.
- 11mo ago
- apexalpha 11mo agoDutch car taxes are based on CO2 emissions and weight, these 'cars' from the US will be pricing themselves out of market anyway. > Yet, EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%, with pedestrian deaths up 80% and cyclist deaths up 50%. WOW! That's massive
- jeroenhd 11mo agoThe F150 has an EV variant that will probably be affordable by Dutch road standards, given the general price of the average EV. It's time to also take into account area when it comes to vehicle tax in my opinion, even European "cars" (SUVs) are bulging out of normal parking spaces these days.
- potato3732842 11mo ago>It's time to also take into account area when it comes to vehicle tax in my opinion, even European "cars" (SUVs) are bulging out of normal parking spaces these days. Man, everything old is new again. Remember when shortsighted idiots killed compact pickups and balooned SUVs with the CAFE footpring rule? What you're advocating for sounds like it's end up being a punitive tax on minivans.
- jeroenhd 11mo agoI'm hardly alone in this. This year my government already proposed including size in road taxes: https://archive.is/HGoSB https://archive.is/HGoSB (NL, use your favourite translation service) The CAFE footprint rule killed compact cars because huge cars were permitted to be exempt. I don't see why we'd need another such exemption, other than the business vehicle exemptions we already have (otherwise vans and trucks would be impossible to afford for anyone). As for a punitive tax on minivans: if those minivans take up more space on the road/parking spaces/public spaces, I don't see why not. The impact doesn't need to be high enough to kill minivans in general, just enough not to drive an 80% minivan to work every day.
- 11mo ago
- janitor77swe 11mo ago"EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%, with pedestrian deaths up 80% and cyclist deaths up 50%." Of course, we are talking about two completely different sets of traffic cultures here (urban design, laws etc.) but I wouldn't be surprised if this gets accepted fully as part of a trade deal. EU isn't a strong negotiator, caves easily under American pressure and Trump has a firm hand and knows how to get the best deal for himself. The only place on the entire continent where I've seen American cars being driven is the Netherlands and they stick out like a sore thumb. They are too big, too loud, too heavy, emit massively more CO2, usually don't have good acceleration (which you need into/out of roundabouts). Just not a good fit for European roads and streets. God forbid you crash into a pedestrian or a cyclists, you kill them instantly. They are built like a tank whereas European cars will self-destroy to preserve pedestrian life.
- isodev 11mo ago> EU isn't a strong negotiator The EU is a strong negotiator, we just prefer that everyone works with the carrot because the stick is uncivilised and hurts a lot.
- thiago_fm 11mo agoUS pedestrian deaths increased almost 100% the last decade or so... and the Cybertruck is the most hilarious car, a representation of bad US car standards. With its pointy edges, even in a very slow accident hitting a pedestrian, the outcome will make any Tarantino movie look soft, in terms of blood being spilled around. Don't even get me started on those huge American cars, they are the absolute terror in terms of pedestrian safety.
- dvh 11mo agoGasoline cars will be banned in 2035 and there ought to be some kind of on ramp so these giant American trucks probably won't meet emission limits anyway, right?
- lawn 11mo agoIt's interesting that Americans seems to justify the purchase because of personal safety, leading to preference for larger cars. This is fine in isolation but at scale it leads to a race where everyone, especially pedestrians, loses.
- branko_d 11mo agoTragedy of commons.
- kelnos 11mo agoYes, it's infuriating. The extra dumb thing about it is that I don't believe the numbers in the US really even strongly support that preference. Yes, you're less likely to die in a big SUV than in a sedan if you get into a crash, but the difference isn't that large, and the risk of death in general is low enough that it's not worth worrying about. I drive a sedan, but I'm only really worried about getting killed by one of these monster vehicles when I'm out walking, as a pedestrian, or while I'm on a bicycle.
- ndjeosibfb 11mo agoconservation of momentum disagrees with your feelings
- bob1029 11mo agoI think it's more of a comfort thing than a safety thing in many cases. Definitely in my case. If you've never experienced it, I think you should at least understand what you are up against. Most people aren't buying these things to be evil to each other in some big dick safety war. Go visit an FCA dealership and see for yourself. Have a sales guy drive you down the freeway in that Ram 1500 Lonestar Edition. Observe how quiet your conversation can be at 80mph. It might change your perspective a bit.
- messe 11mo ago> Observe how quiet your conversation can be at 80mph. It might change your perspective a bit. Take a train some time. It might change yours.
- maelito 11mo agoTesla's losing the sales war against Renault in France and UK thanks to Renault's R5. European consumers want livable cities with smaller (and more affordable) cars. Thanks.
- drstewart 11mo ago[flagged]
- boudin 11mo agoYou'r giving sales number, that doesn't means that it's what people are looking for, it's a representation of what manufacturer provides. Most people buy laptops with copilot AI, that doesn't mean they want it.
- em500 11mo agoIf there is a significant mismatch between what people are looking for and what manufacturers provide, why would some other manufacturer not jump in to capture the underserved demand? It doesn't seem like there's only a very small number of car (or laptop) manufacturers.
- boudin 11mo agoGood question to ask manufacturers.
- internet_points 11mo agoI used to have no worries about my kids playing in the street here (Norway), but I've noticed a few of these big trucks lately – I cannot understand how their drivers can be able to see a five year old running around it?
- jeroenhd 11mo agoThe five year old just needs to stay at least 2.5m [1] away from the driver and there aren't any problems! [1]: Based on the chart in this old meme https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popular_trucks_have_a_bigger_dead_spot_in/ https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popu...
- jacquesm 11mo agoThey can't.
- Findecanor 11mo agoThey don't. In the US, most children killed by cars had even been run over in the family's own driveway — because the SUV/truck had poor visibility.
- Popeyes 11mo agoHaving visited the US recently I was shocked how tall the cars could be. They were essentially trucks/lorries with civilian drivers. There should be a special category of licence for those who want to do it. Or just bundle them in with the class of driver that drives a high/heavy load.
- bombcar 11mo agoWait until you learn a 16 year old with a still-wet license can drive a bus-sized RV in most states.
- trymas 11mo agoIMHO - not “would risk”, but “will definitely increase road deaths”.
- pjmlp 11mo agoFirst they have to fit on our roads, and medieval streets, where even "tiny" European cars can be a challege do drive.
- reop2whiskey 11mo agoThis has got to be propaganda from big auto. No one would benefit from more regulation as much as they would
- postepowanieadm 11mo agoAnyone seen the recent Mercedes SUVs? They are just huge, so European manufacturers are to blame as well.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- georgefrowny 11mo agoEven Volvo has made the newer XC models have a much more obstructive, flat, high bonnet. I drove one as a rental and it was disconcerting how little you could see. You can't see anything in front of the car, whereas the old style was still a (stupid, IMO) crossover, but the front was basically like a normal car-shaped car with a down-sloped front. I don't know why anyone who isn't a complete psycho would actually prefer being more limited in forward vision (though I imagine it allowed more space for dual-motor engines). Honestly if I were the government, I'd require a downward sightline such that you can see, with your own two eyes, a child of a certain height standing against the front bumper. No visibility, no sales, no imports, no excuses. Let the car manufacturers figure out how to build a car that meets it or settle for "only" being able to sell car-shaped estate cars. https://ibb.co/dw7QmTTr https://ibb.co/dw7QmTTr
- nraynaud 11mo agoYeah, it’s a big topic in France too. I just saw the current pinacle of this stupidity: a camera in the grille at the front of a Peugeot car.
- baiwl 11mo agoDespite all the bs you’ll read here, Europeans also want bigger cars. For me the proof is that poor people car brands like Dacia no longer sell sedans. I think the reason you don’t see many big cars is that we are generally so poor that we can’t afford what we would like to buy. At least where I live… Also our streets are old and narrow which makes it impractical.
- lbreakjai 11mo agoI drive a 2014 Ford Fiesta. Every car feels huge in comparison. I had a Nissan Qashqai parked next to my car, it looked like a tank. I had a look inside, it didn't seem particularly spacious. Same when I flew to Bilbao. I booked late, the only rentals left were in the luxury segment. I drove off in a mild-hybrid Lexus NX, where I struggled to fit the luggage that fit reasonably well in the boot of my car on the way to Schiphol.
- olalonde 11mo agoAs would accepting any car standards.
- em1sar 11mo ago[dead]
- throwaway99111 11mo agoEuropeans need to just stall for may be 1 or 2 years. The current admin is honestly going to collapse when the rather ill president won't be able to govern anymore, which given recent reporting, is rather soon.
- fransje26 11mo agoNothing indicates that the replacement is any slight bit more competent than the senile fool in command right now.
- peanuty1 11mo agoYou think JD Vance is equally incompetent as Trump?
- gman83 11mo agoI don't know, seems like Vance hates Europe even more, especially since they're regulating his benefactor's tech investments.
- throwaw12 11mo agoWho is the beneficiary from this? I don't think its EU citizens, because: * roads will be damaged faster * risk of hitting and killing more people * because roads damaged more tax money spent on fixing them * more CO2 I think EU should go back to build good relationships with Russia, take its cheaper gas & energy and support its own economy, instead of propping up the US economy and opening the market for its ugly huge cars. Just come to Amsterdam and see if you can drive those cars in the middle of Amsterdam. Even trams from 2 opposite direction share same line in some areas.
- ekall 11mo agoYou think EU should go back to building good relationships with Russia when there is an ongoing war of aggression started by them? If you really believe that and you're an EU citizen I can't help viewing you as traitorous to very foundational values the EU was created for. Absolutely disgusting.
- throwaw12 11mo ago[flagged]
- rcxdude 11mo agoAnd yet NATO expands most readily when Russia invades another country. I wonder why nations might want in that alliance? You're just repeating Russia's justifications for their actions, which have never made sense.
- watwut 11mo agoNATO expansion was because countries begged to become members of NATO, out of fear of Russia invading them. The only reason Russia minds NATO expansion is that it prevents them from starting easy wars.
- Tade0 11mo ago[flagged]
- nuc1e0n 11mo agoWhy don't US car companies just improve their safety standards?
- reassess_blind 11mo agoExpensive
- acatton 11mo ago"When Congress passes new emission standards, [Honda] hires 50 more engineers and GM hires 50 more lawyers." The quote is attributed to Soichiro Honda, in the book Driving Honda: Inside the World's Most Innovative Car Company by Jeffrey Rothfeder Why solve hard problems when you can just lobby your way out of it?
- bean469 11mo agoCompanies must grow fast and large at all costs due to shareholder pressure, competitiveness and many other factors. This means that short-term profits naturally have priority. It makes much sense, from a short-term profits perspective, to instead lobby politicians and lawyer up - it's the path of least resistance in the current economic reality
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- paganel 11mo ago[flagged]
- kelnos 11mo agoWow, that's a false equivalency if ever there was one. Stricter safety standards != starting a trade war because of "hurr durr trade deficit".
- paganel 11mo agoSee how Europe has been using the same “but standards!” to protect its agricultural industry from African agricultural imports.
- Tor3 11mo agoIt's not protectionism when all you require is that products which compete should be held to the same standards. Or do you mean that it's fine for US companies to undercut other companies by lowering standards and costs, and only enforcing the standards on said competing companies?
- turbonaut 11mo agoA topical piece from the BBC… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy7vdvl2531o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy7vdvl2531o
- isolli 11mo ago"EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%, with pedestrian deaths up 80% and cyclist deaths up 50%." Everyone rightfully highlights this striking statistic. But I notice a sleight of hand ("have supported" = correlation) and would like to see a breakdown of the factors that may have contributed to this divergence.
- mrb 11mo ago"Yet, EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%" I thought this stark difference might be partially explained by US population increasing more quickly than EU. However it turns out in the 2010-2024 period, US population increased by +10% while EU27 pop increased +2%. So although there is a minor 8% difference, this is far, very far, from explaining the stark difference even if we compared per capita. The EU is certainly doing something right here.
- rsynnott 11mo agoThere's a lot going on there, and it's not just vehicle design. Many countries have brought in reduced speed limits in urban areas, usually 30km/h, for instance. Your chances of dying if hit by a car at 30km/h are dramatically lower than 60km/h. Many countries also took the opportunity of COVID (roads not busy, construction industries in need of life-support) to improve cycling infrastructure. And rush-hour traffic is usually not as bad as it was, due to WFH. In Ireland, public transport usage now is also much bigger share of commutes than pre-covid, particularly in Dublin, though I'm not sure if that's due to local factors or if it's replicated across Europe.
- potato3732842 11mo agoI wish we'd look at traffic speeds rather than speed limits since compliance varies widely depending upon the country and speed limit but I suspect that data isn't as available.
- rsynnott 11mo agoDecreasing limits to 30km/h in urban areas generally didn't actually change _mean_ traffic speed very much; urban traffic is on average pretty slow anyway.
- Y-bar 11mo agoMinor nitpick, it seems the report is dealing mainly with the period up until 2020, not 2024. Not sure if it makes a significant difference for your numbers, but maybe adjust them? See page 12 on https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/15-PIN-annual-report-FINAL.pdf https://etsc.eu/wp-content/uploads/15-PIN-annual-report-FINA...
- kypro 11mo agoLet's not pretend we care while motorbikes are still legal in Europe...
- walletdrainer 11mo agoI think this is just not true. You can already easily import, register and drive all of these cars in the EU. There’s simply approximately zero demand for F150s in the EU regardless of if Ford sells them directly or not.
- jorisboris 11mo agoIf Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam don’t like it they can probably do something about it Every euro city seems to be able to set their own regulation on car exhausts So why not limit the sizes of cars or prohibit specific cars into the city? I’m frankly surprised Amsterdam didn’t ban some of these huge machines yet I detest how each city has different rules on exhausts but it might be the only way
- tialaramex 11mo agoAll the cities you listed end up using the common EU standards for deciding emissions requirements, they just draw a different line as to what is allowed and from when. So maybe in one European city you need at least Euro 4 Petrol since 2024 and in another it was Euro 3 by 2025, but all you need to know as an owner or driver is that you're driving say a Euro 6 Petrol car or that the second hand car you just bought your teenage daughter is only Euro 4. France has a layer where they translate from the Euro standards to their own system, but that's no different from having to mentally translate temperature units or distances.
- jorisboris 11mo agoBut you do need a different sticker for each country
- tialaramex 11mo agoDo you? Can you list say, three European countries for which you need a different sticker? There are 27 EU countries, so if it's "a different sticker for each country" that seems easy enough, except, all the ones I thought of do not require stickers so...
- perks_12 11mo agoThis whole discussion is weird. The ETSC-linked sources do not make any statements regarding vehicle size or US American car standards. It just claims that European standards 'supported' fewer deaths. I am European, I don't think big trucks are particularly well supported by our road systems but I don't think we need to look at American car standards to get the next 10x reduction in traffic-related deaths. IMHO it is not explainable how in 2025 there are still cars sold without LIDAR-based anti-collision systems, how are these still extra? Systems to warn of objects in the blind spot areas are available yet not mandatory. This reads like the classic western world strawman to me. Instead of looking at how to improve things we just make sure things are not getting worse. By burning a strawman, in this case trucks from the US. Which are best described as a niche market over here, but now that we have a newly defined enemy, we do not have to confront our shitty carmakers about technological advancements. These people do not care about human lives, they care about politics.
- bombcar 11mo agoYou can take one sides complaints about “trucks” or “immigrants”, swap the word, and sell it directly to the other side. It’s 95% a political football; the other 5% is people actually concerned about the issue.
- sublimefire 11mo agoOne of the points was that European manufacturers will start making more cars in US purely because it is cheaper to do so due to the lower bar. Why would we want that? Our market is quite big anyway and this agreement is an attempt to shoulder their way into the market without the sacrifices that local manufacturers are subjected to. Besides cars from US can already be bought and imported.
- stokedmind 11mo agoAs an American living in the Netherlands with a larger family (especially by EU standards, with 4 children!), I think I see a slightly different perspective. Here, owning a car is extremely expensive - perhaps one of the most expensive in Europe. This price goes up considerably when you get a larger vehicle, both because fuel costs are very high but also because you are taxed quarterly for CO2/weight of the vehicle. With a larger family, you are squeezed into an uncomfortable position since you are outside of the <= 2 child norm. Many 7+ seater vehicles (French cars, etc) are extremely impractical to the point of me thinking that they are not actually designed for more than 5 seats in use, as there is comically low cargo room and the 3rd row is extremely cramped (try fitting a stroller or anything besides people...ha!). I ended up picking up a Chrysler Town & Country import from the USA for my family, because it was the only vehicle that I could find for a reasonable price that checked all of the boxes, and am paying dearly for it (400+ euros every quarter just to have the privilege of registering it!). Before you say anything about us having a "kindercrusher" we also have 2 bakfiets cargo bikes and use them regularly, but public transit and bikes don't scale well to large families for anything more than a short distance ride (school, groceries, etc). Large families are being squeezed out of existence here.
- iolo 11mo agoI feel like a vw transporter 7 seater would suit your use case, maybe a vw caddy if you want something physically smaller.
- stokedmind 11mo agoI looked at transporters, they are about the same size (although less space in the "trunk"/back) but much more expensive to purchase. Almost exclusively diesels are available (with some rare exceptions), and their taxes are even higher than mine! Don't get me started on the VW Multivan or similar - beautiful cars, but extremely expensive. VW Caddy we looked at and almost bought, but we had many bad encounters with dealers and instead bought from the private market.
- bombcar 11mo ago
- penguin_booze 11mo agoWhat rhymes with US is boycott, not adopt. Ah, but what else can a vassal state and "freeloaders" do, right? Gunboat diplomacy works, albeit in a different way.
- rsynnott 11mo agoI mean, I think in EC-speak, "intends to accept" means "no way in a million years", in any case. In general, if they say they'll definitely do something, that means "within 20 years, assuming it's convenient". Anything less than that, not happening.
- car 11mo agoDid I hear that right, dream car vs. asshole bucket?
- firesteelrain 11mo agoI am not an expert on car safety standards in either US or EU. Nitpicking this quote: “ Europe currently has mandatory requirements for life-saving technologies, such as pedestrian protection, automated emergency braking and lane-keeping assistance” My cheap, Chevy Trax has some of these features. Lane keeping assistance is there. It will tell me if there is a pedestrian in front of me. If it sees someone’s brake lights then it will flash a red light on the windshield to warn me that I am too close. It doesn’t have emergency braking but my Wife’s 2019 Honda Odyssey had all those things except the pedestrian protection. All US vehicles. What standards are we really talking about? This is one of these articles that feels more like clickbait and judging on the emotional responses I see in this comment section it worked. The top comment is railing against Dodge Rams which wasn’t mentioned in the article.
- woile 11mo agoNotJustBikes cover's this in the latest video, starting here: https://youtu.be/--832LV9a3I?si=HpfmA8mFIsJJ_Uhp&t=333 https://youtu.be/--832LV9a3I?si=HpfmA8mFIsJJ_Uhp&t=333 Of course, I think if a company is targeting both markets, you may benefit from some features. And it's not just about you, but the other people driving around you who pose a danger to you.
- firesteelrain 11mo agoThat’s why the US vehicles focus on occupant safety since the US does not have a pedestrian centric culture - it is now built around cars. Some places in small pockets are trying to change that but it’s slow and unlikely to be widespread. Other roadway safety features for pedestrians by cities or counties have been enacted. But these lessons are learned in blood. Recently there was a case a couple years ago in a beach town in Florida where a girl died crossing A1A. That town put in a bunch of safety devices after aggressively lobbying the State. But the vehicles weren’t modified. [1] https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/02/26/driver-who-fatally-struck-12-year-old-girl-at-satellite-beach-crosswalk-wont-face-charges/ https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/02/26/driver-wh... [2] https://www.wesh.com/article/calls-for-crosswalk-changes-after-death-of-12-year-old/30363997 https://www.wesh.com/article/calls-for-crosswalk-changes-aft...
- zero_k 11mo agoHonestly US standards can go to hell. I absolutely abhor these monstrosities. They should be outright banned except if specific need can be shown. They are dangerous, take up way too much space, and excessively damage the road. Your freedom to do stuff stops where my freedom to walk & cycle around without undue fear of death begins.
- stokedmind 11mo agoAttributing "monstrosities" only to the US as a "US standards" doesn't make sense since the consumer trend towards bigger cars is global. It's a consumer trend, not a standard. In NL, for example, I see plenty of large EU cars driving around with only a very occasional US "monstrosity" like a pickup truck, and I don't even live in the city.
- jhogervorst 11mo agoHas anyone found petitions against this that we can sign?
- effygp 11mo agoWhat has this got to do with "hacking"?
- bjackman 11mo agoRegarding the giant trucks specific: one pragmatic lever we could pull here is just m parking enforcement. The EU says we have to allow sale of dangerous vehicles to keep Trump happy. But cities can just say "you can't park there mate" (where "there" means, for example, the Paris metropolitan area). They are already too big for existing parking spaces. We can forbid construction of larger spaces and require privately-owned car parks to enforce size limits.
- miniruntimeb 11mo agoNo
- jamisteven 11mo ago"Yet, EU vehicle safety regulations have supported a 36% reduction in European road deaths since 2010. By contrast, road deaths in the US over the same period increased 30%, with pedestrian deaths up 80% and cyclist deaths up 50%." They seem to think that the two are correlated, they are definitely not. The US is like the wild west compared to the EU, especially as it pertains to traffic. Americans take laws as mere suggestions, where in Europe the law is the law and you follow the rules, especially in Germany / Austria / Switzerland. We also allow people to drive on the roads with super old, broke down, and unserviced cars with missing bumpers or things clearly falling off, like its no big deal. Again, they are grasping at straws suggesting their auto build quality has lowered their death rate while increasing ours, its ridiculous.
- BirAdam 11mo agoThis depends upon the discretion of the patrol officer. One can certainly get citations for crossing lines, failing to maintain a vehicle, and so on. The issue is, those tickets are not as lucrative for the municipality as drug enforcement. Typically, those laws are enforced to allow an officer to search a vehicle for contraband and/or apprehend someone who was suspected of a more serious offense.
- kepeko 11mo agoCars are so expensive I'm happy if somebody brings cheaper cars to Europe. EU regulation is probably a factor in making cars too expensive and it's time to stop and think, how to find a better balance.
- saubeidl 11mo agoCars being expensive reduces car use, which is a good thing.
- maxdo 11mo agoIt’s all patchwork . Robotaxis are coming anyways . That safety framework will be totally different.
- sublimefire 11mo agoIt makes sense in US but not in Europe where public transport infra is good. There are so many places where robotaxis would just be stuck on narrow European roads. Why would I even use a robotaxi when I can get one with the actual person who understands roads better.
- hounddogX 11mo agoyet another idiotic EU nanny-state bedwetting episode. EU leaders are bankrupting their continent, lying to their citizens, marching into a war they'll NEVER win... but pedantic auto safety standards - this is important? this is news? europe deserves it's little seat @ the kid's table.
- tomaytotomato 11mo agoReject US car imports, instead let China flood the EU and UK with cheap and dangerous cars like BYD, Maxxus, Jaecoo, Chery etc. It seems myopic for this group to go after American vehicles and the size of their market share in the EU and UK, whilst China guts our car market with a thousand cuts from the other side. I could not find one negative article about China on their website, maybe it's not an area of focus for them (or they're bought out already) https://etsc.eu/?s=china&submit= https://etsc.eu/?s=china&submit= As a Brit I am less worried about my VW Passat blowing up or having some wiretap back to Beijing, or locking me out of the car when the firmware defaults back to Mandarin.
- vegasbrianc 11mo agoFor the pollution side, just align with the Californa Auto standards which would be more in line with EU standards
- fransje26 11mo agoDo these laws do anything to limit the sales of these gas-guzzlers in California then?
- elif 11mo agoAnd then you can get back more European lives by accepting US self driving.
- milkytron 11mo agoThis isn't about self driving standards.
- bluecalm 11mo agoIt is crazy and sad. I spend a lot of time on a bike on public roads and those are absolutely scary. In general my impression is that the older the car the safer it is for everyone around. People in modern cars go too fast too easily, see less (huge pillars in front). They are also wider so when passing it's more difficult for them to go around or fit in between whatever they think they need to fit which is sadly often you and the line on the road. The safest areas are the ones where people can't afford modern cars yet and with no tourists that rent them. It's sad state of affairs, the space is shrinking every year.
- oxag3n 11mo agoNobody mentioned headlights standard in US. It literally lets manufactures go as bright as they want, any direction they want, mounted at any height. EU headlights are not perfect and still can blind, but nothing as bad as bypassing Dodge Ram headlamp being higher than regular car side mirror. Tesla Model 3 and Y headlamps are just engineering failure, spreading light 180 degree and being super bright.
- zombot 11mo agoThose same standards also risk US lives, but apparently it's OK to risk random strangers' lives for your own profit there.