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LAPD helicopter tracker with real-time operating costs
- bronco21016 11mo agoAd in the bottom left covers the UI when expanding the menu out. I'm sure it depends on screen resolution etc but I'd love to be able to click links to the data sources. Overall an interesting idea. I'd love to know the data source for the cost of the operation of the aircraft. Would be really interesting to connect a database of all aircraft types then present the ability to watch the cost of like "all American Airlines flights currently flying" or "all US military aircraft".
- polalavik 11mo agosorry probably got covered by the ad - data source is the hourly from the city controller https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters which says $2,916 per flight hour
- ripberge 11mo agoAs someone who lives in central LA and has them circle my neighborhood frequently, actually shaking my house, I think this is awesome. These needs should be filled by drones. Way less noisy, dangerous and expensive.
- polalavik 11mo agowhy LA is spending thousands/hour when drones exist is crazy.
- tcdent 11mo agoYou're talking about technology that's only become realistic in the last couple years. Even then, there's probably nothing off-the-shelf that would serve the current need. LAPD has been patrolling with helicopters for decades. I have yet to see a drone follow a car in high speed pursuit down the 5 at 100+ MPH.
- kevin_thibedeau 11mo agoThe MQ-8 would be cheaper to operate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_MQ-8_Fire_Scout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_MQ-8_Fire_Sco...
- robotnikman 11mo agoPretty sure these can't be bought by municipalities. Would make more sense to operate them though.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- scottyah 11mo agoIn what way would that be cheaper to operate? You'd just replace a pilot with a few pilots and a few teams of software engineers. Maybe fuel savings?
- digdugdirk 11mo agoOn the other hand, I have seen drones chase down F1 cars at 100+ MPH... Realistically though, I agree with your sentiment. Solving this would drones would require a constant flock of something more akin to Predator drones. The better question is - why do we allow high speed pursuit chases in the first place?
- hatthew 11mo agoAs far as I'm aware, high speed drones tend to have quite short flight durations due to battery limitations. Drones that have the range to follow a fleeing suspect for a long time would probably have to be big enough that they could cause a fatal accident if they crash, and in that case I'd rather have a pilot on board. Better reaction time, no risk from jamming, much better field of view/awareness, decades of testing, etc.
- typewithrhythm 11mo ago
- monkaiju 11mo agoIdk, having a bunch of government surveillance drones doesn't really sound great... Maybe we just don't need this level of surveillance at all?
- autoexec 11mo agoIt's absolutely worth looking at the ROI on these flights and weighing that against the intrusion on our privacy/freedom. No doubt they'll always need drones and helicopters but I'd be surprised if there was any real need for them to be in the air that often. I think that's a question that should be asked everywhere but the LAPD in particular are terrible enough that it makes this a great place to start.
- DiscourseFan 11mo agoCouldn’t someone take out the drones pretty easily?
- autoexec 11mo agoThat depends on the drone. There are drones/UAVs that fly so high in the air you can't even see them seeing you from the ground. Even low flying drones would be very hard to hit from a car involved in a high speed chase, and it's not as if people can't shoot at helicopters which are both larger/easier targets and much more dangerous if brought down.
- Zigurd 11mo agoHelicopters aren't exactly robust under fire and are four orders of magnitude more valuable as a target.
- kylehotchkiss 11mo agoDown in SD at least, the sheriff's office helicopters serve many purposes. They'll use them for firefighting, hike rescues (often! according to their IG), first responder to an aviation accident, loudly shouting garbled messages through their loudspeaker, etc. There's just enough high-speed/timely crime here that I prefer they use these over drones. There's some extra legal protections built into helicopters that drones don't get, like prison time if some idiot points a laser pointer.
- VerifiedReports 11mo agoI seriously doubt that physically rescuing hikers or delivering first-responders to plane crashes represent a large percentage of LAPD helicopter missions. I live in a nice suburb and there's one of them circling over it probably weekly. I don't see why large drones can't do most of what these helicopters are doing. They're using needlessly expensive helicopters, too.
- bluescrn 11mo agoPeople generally really don't like drones, but have come to accept helicopters
- asdff 11mo agoLAPD doesn't conduct rescue operations or anything like that. Different helicopters are used from different agencies.
- stickfigure 11mo agoI work with CHP helicopters as part of our fire district's rescue team. We pull a half dozen people a year off of one of the local trails (sometimes as "recovery"). Most of these are via helicopter. There are two helos for a huge area - Yolo county down to Santa Cruz county. By acreage it's a lot bigger than LA. My point is, two small helicopters are more than enough to do that job as a side-gig from all the other CHP work they do. Also, Cal Fire has its own air wing. LAPD helicopters are not equipped for firefighting.
- whalesalad 11mo agoI was in Santa Monica - the dense part with all the alleyways - during a foot pursuit involving a heli. Felt like I was in vietnam. It was at night, they were pretty low, and that light felt like the sun coming into the building.
- rimbo789 11mo agoThis is the kind of government waste that needs to be highlighted. Police forces consume a massively disproportionate amount of resources from our cities.
- scottyah 11mo agoLawsuits are most of the money in LA. Juries love to think they're sticking it to the police, but it just comes from a different fund that extracts from a lot of other departments. The LA City Controller is making great attempts at outreach: https://controller.lacity.gov/data https://controller.lacity.gov/data
- Zigurd 11mo agoWrong answers only?
- 0xbadcafebee 11mo agohttps://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/audit-says-lapds-use-of-helicopters-causes-significant-harm-to-the-community/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/audit-says-lapds-use... On average, the city spent an average of $46.6 million on the program, the audit disclosed. It also found that there is limited oversight or monitoring of the division, its policies and practices and whether the program is in line with the city's safety needs. [...] The department has 17 helicopters and over 90 employees. [..] The city operates their helicopter fleet on a nearly "continuous basis" [..] The total translates to more than $2,900 per flight hour. [...] Additional findings in the audit disclosed [..] 61% of the flight time was in fact dedicated to low-priority incidents like transportation, general patrols and ceremonial flights — like a fly-by at a local golf tournament, roundtrip transportation of high-ranking LAPD officers between stations and passenger shuttle flights for a "Chili Fly-In."
- throwaway5465 11mo ago$5 per person per year then. Or, the price of a can of coke per person per month. Much of which flows directly back into the local economy through wages spent and maintnance paid.
- fn-mote 11mo agoYou know this is ridiculous, which is why you posted with a throwaway. Obvious excessive spending should not be shrugged off by dividing the expense by the population of the area. Obvious excessive costs need to be reined in. Tax money needs to be spent on the highest priorities, which this is not.
- throwaway5465 11mo agoSome of us always post throwaway.
- unethical_ban 11mo agoIn an AI bot and troll infested world, expect quippy contrarian opinions posted with throwaways to be taken less seriously.
- dsamarin 11mo agoWould using drones nowadays end up being much less expensive but with all the same necessary capabilities for police work?
- analog31 11mo agoWhat are the necessary capabilities? My city has no helicopters or drones. There's a medical chopper that flies over my house regularly, but it has an obvious purpose.
- TOMDM 11mo agoBeing able to follow a car involved in a hit and run and intercept them when they stop without restoring to what could be a dangerous police chase. Aerial surveillance has it's place.
- autoexec 11mo ago> Aerial surveillance has it's place. It does, but I would be very surprised if the LAPD knew its place or cared to keep it there to prevent it from wandering into places that are totally unnecessary and expensive invasions of our privacy.
- asdff 11mo agoUnfortunately standard practice for LAPD is to engage in a dangerous police chase along with the helicopter, not to simply follow with a helicopter. They don't really use them for hit and run. How could they? Think about how fast that crime occurs and how much time will pass between that incident and vectoring a helicopter, which might be tied up on other work. Less than 20% of hit and run cases are even solved in California (1). I'm sure the rate is even lower in a city like LA. 1. https://attorneyatlawmagazine.com/legal/opinion/dragged-and-forgotten-why-californias-hit-run-epidemic-is-a-justice-crisis https://attorneyatlawmagazine.com/legal/opinion/dragged-and-...
- LeoPanthera 11mo agoThis doesn't seem to work properly in Mac Safari. The map is blank except in a thin stripe at the top.
- nonameiguess 11mo agoMy first question was how much of this is labor, and from the chart provided at the bottom of the helpful link provided elsewhere (https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters), it appears to be around 60%. I was wondering because I remember the last time I lived in Los Angeles in 2009 I went to a Lakers championship parade and talked to one of the cops assigned to crowd control, and asked about it when a helicopter flew overhead. She told me it's a great job a lot of them try to get because even 20 years ago they were starting out at something like $215,000 a year and were not expected to have any flight experience. The city just trained up regular patrol officers and tripled their pay.
- asdff 11mo agoThe way they fly you can tell they don't have a lot of flight experience. Really low compared to news choppers following the same pursuit. Juvenile even, at times (1-4) 1. https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1oolm68/lapd_helicopter_draws_dick/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1oolm68/lapd_he... 2. https://www.threads.com/@kilodelta/post/C5m373ZOX9Q https://www.threads.com/@kilodelta/post/C5m373ZOX9Q 3. https://preview.redd.it/jcfdph3aiczf1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14654d730221e0b1d676036605276e3d6ade34bd https://preview.redd.it/jcfdph3aiczf1.jpeg?width=1164&format... 4. https://preview.redd.it/dl7lqa2blbzf1.jpeg?width=1206&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f686d9d9aec46ef0bb814602096d70e7fbc03a3b https://preview.redd.it/dl7lqa2blbzf1.jpeg?width=1206&format...
- citizenpaul 11mo agoRoughly a dollar a second which if you are a theater kid you know is about $31,536,000 mil a year. Honestly not that bad considering it provides a real service. I mean how much does the city spend on lawsuits against corrupt cops and other employees. According to the budget something like $300 MILLION on lawsuit payouts last year alone. Who gives a $hit about the helicopters. Build an app that tracks the employees causing these lawsuits that are still keeping their jobs.
- asdff 11mo agoPeople know what to do to get away from the helicopter and they have been successful at it. Two chases in one week this past august the suspect shook off the helicopter and got away. It is as easy as driving under an overpass or into protected airspace. In one case this past month, they followed a suspect all the way into san diego and allowed them to cross the border into Mexico where they were lost.
- dgrin91 11mo agoThat's if it's one helo at a time. If it spikes to 2+ then the numbers go up way faster. They have 16 total and I would assume 1/3rd can go up at a moments notice
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- BadBadJellyBean 11mo agoI find it interesting that the question is "why don't they use drones". My question is: why so much air surveillance? I live in Germany. The only times I hear a helicopter is if someone is being rescued or if someones missing. I rarely see them at all.
- potato3732842 11mo agoIt's not about results per dollar. It's about sending a message.
- Nextgrid 11mo agoThe police state needs to enforce its dominance.
- shoddydoordesk 11mo agoThere are high speed police chases (100mph+) in Los Angeles — no exaggeration — on an almost daily basis. Air support is the primary defense tool for law enforcement. It's so bad that the local TV stations have their own choppers and a dedicated on-screen UI tailored for the chases with GPS-based tracking and speed. If you're lucky you can catch one of the many YouTube live streams. Here's one from....two days ago: https://www.youtube.com/live/uGiJU-FlpdE https://www.youtube.com/live/uGiJU-FlpdE
- stefan_ 11mo agoI mean in most other places people have simply realized that unless there is an immediate risk to life, the only thing high speed police chases do is create that very risk. Nicely contrasts with all the news about the omnipresent license plate scanners - it's just pointless, don't take the risk, arrest them at your leisure.
- TravisLS 11mo agoWorth noting that many people who run from the police also have fake or stolen plates.
- VerifiedReports 11mo agoLooks like there's supposed to be a map, but it only loads the very top edge... occasionally redrawn. Hm, now on reload it shows a whole map... but if you zoom in it resets it and zooms out by itself at intervals.
- andy99 11mo agoSeconded, I thought it was just me
- ninininino 11mo agoThis is neat but also has serious implications for criminal enablement.
- asdff 11mo agoWhy? Helicopters already are on ADS-B.
- polalavik 11mo agono it doesnt. this data is public all over the place. most notably https://www.flightaware.com/ https://www.flightaware.com/
- ninininino 11mo agoCool. And yours is simpler and doesn't require looking up what the identifiers are for LAPD in particular. Just own it.
- rootusrootus 11mo agoI found the list of identifiers with a single google search. For any criminal who cares, it is a tiny amount of additional effort.
- walterreid 11mo ago[dead]
- asdff 11mo agoThis was circulating recently and is sort of funny: https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1oolm68/lapd_helicopter_draws_dick/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1oolm68/lapd_he... LAPD flies quite recklessly especially downtown, where they aren't even clearing the buildings. News choppers fly much higher, well over the skyscrapers, and have no problems getting very tight shots on whatever subject there is down there. If you follow them on ADS-B you see they really aren't used that frequently at all for calls and end up in holding patterns with nothing to do really before flying somewhere else for a new holding pattern, until their shift is up presumably.
- bigiain 11mo ago> end up in holding patterns with nothing to do Cynical-me assumes those are the ones running stingrays/imsi-catchers.
- colordrops 11mo agoI don't see why a realistic theory that happens to point at an unpleasant possibility should be called "cynical".
- maxbendick 11mo agoLiving in LA, the LAPD helicopter noise really is incessant. It's hilarious to hear flying cops try to be intimidating through when dispersing illegal concerts or singling individuals out in non-violent crowds. It's impotent posturing and an obvious waste of money. They really don't need to send 5 squad cars and a helicopter for noise complaints. I will say though that the loudspeaker on those things are surprisingly clear, even through the buzzing of a helicopter.
- burnt-resistor 11mo agoBlue Thunder wasn't just B-movie conspiracy theory paranoia porn but also contained a warning about technology authoritarianism and invasion of privacy, and police over-militarization.
- NullCascade 11mo agoWhat is the ROI? During the summer of 2017 Denmark flew hourly surveillance helicopters and military SIGINT aircrafts over Copenhagen to stop Sweden-like gang shootings. It was expensive but worked.
- swrobel 11mo ago“Sweden-like gang shootings” is not a phrase I expected to come across
- frizlab 11mo agoI must say I initially wondered why the LDAP protocol needed helicopters… then I re-read the title.
- MathMonkeyMan 11mo agoNo, the helicopter tracker is implemented in LDAP.
- frizlab 11mo agoMakes more sense, thanks!
- insane_dreamer 11mo agoWe need an ICE spending tracker.
- zobzu 11mo agoNot ICE, but a bunch of similar data at scale for the US https://usdebtclock.org/ https://usdebtclock.org/
- AIorNot 11mo agoWhat no Blue Thunder? https://youtu.be/LXg5Pu-yZrE?si=DFYPLVCBjYVi7a_g https://youtu.be/LXg5Pu-yZrE?si=DFYPLVCBjYVi7a_g
- zkmon 11mo agoIt's just a matter of striking a balance between "what a waste" and "what a lack of law and order". So, like a pendulum swing, cut down all spending drastically, until people scream "where is government?" and then swing backwards, until they cry "what a waste". Keep swinging back and forth until you find the local minima. Wait, am I talking about gradient descent?
- QuiEgo 11mo agoTo those not familiar with LA or the USA, here’s a cultural time capsule from 2Pac circa 1996: “ It's the, City of Angels and constant danger South Central L.A., can't get no stranger Full of drama like a soap opera, on the curb Watchin' the ghetto bird helicopters, I observe” Pretty much still sums it up.
- smt88 11mo agoWell the danger part has decreased a lot. It peaked at almost 100 per 10k people in the 90s, and now it's closer to 25. Still very high, but a lot of progress.
- getpost 11mo agoKenneth Mejia, our progressive, data-driven controller audited LAPD helicopter use, and published his findings. "The ASD program costs nearly $50 million annually while most of the flight time is not devoted to high priority events. Our audit found that the estimated annual cost to operate the helicopter program is $46.6 million (i.e., $127,805 per day or $2,916 per flight hour). There are 14 City departments whose annual budgets do not reach this amount;" https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters
- mwkaufma 11mo agoPublicly funded noise-pollution.
- almost_usual 11mo agoActually a lot less than I expected.