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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites
- bmitch3020 1y agohttp://archive.today/aKDPo http://archive.today/aKDPo
- montroser 1y agoWhat is Trump's endgame here? Everyone stranded for Thanksgiving, poor kids going hungry, all for...what, exactly?
- 0xC0ncord 1y agoTo own the libs, apparently.
- e40 1y agoTheir goal, since they 80's, has been to make government look incompetent so they can privatize it and use as a weapon against their adversaries (who they argue want "big government").
- black_13 1y ago[dead]
- neilv 1y agoHow much do they need that angle anymore? Recent history shows that a lot of the old rules, about persuasion and enabling actions, don't currently apply.
- techblueberry 1y agoI saw this interview with Arie Rothschild, the author of strangers in their own land (https://youtu.be/RywaAeWbXjo https://youtu.be/RywaAeWbXjo). And she described this sort of paradox, that people sort of know that Republicans are the ones screwing them, but the sting from being hurt by the government causes them to be susceptible to the arguments Republicans make about the government not working.
- ryandrake 1y agoDon't forget "so they can make a lot of money off of it." One of the critical legs in the "privatization" stool is to make everything more expensive to line the pockets of people profiting off of what was once a government-provided service.
- e40 1y agoYeah, I should have explicitly said that. It's the whole point of privatization. Thanks.
- jeffbee 1y agoTrump has no remaining mental powers and is not orchestrating this shutdown.
- dangus 1y agoMike Johnson has been speaker for long enough so that the average follower of politics probably forgets the fiasco behind his selection. He’s really not a very skilled politician at all. And of course, Trump is beyond deep fried, he’s a full blown dementia patient. He has no ability to navigate Congress. He even gave away his party’s leverage by fighting against SNAP payments, giving Democrats no reason to back down. Fun fact, the only two presidents without government shutdowns since the modern budget process began have been Joe Biden and George W. Bush. Joe Biden in particular was a master at navigating Congress and has relationships all over the place across the aisle. The bipartisan infrastructure bill is a really legitimate accomplishment in that sense.
- xethos 1y agoWithout being in favour of it, this is one reason politicians are old. Not necessarily twenty years past typical retirement, but those relationships that were so useful to Biden were built over decades. Getting elected at 40 doesn't mean you also have the history with others in government to actully get things done. Good faith could be assumed in some other countries, and those relationships could, subsuquently, be less vital. But that's not the political environment America has found itself in.
- dangus 1y agoI think it’s both relationships and being legitimately good at what you do. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi were in their prime extremely shrewd strategic leaders. Someone like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez started off young and somewhat isolated but has quickly turned into someone who is one of the most important leaders of the party before age 40. The impression I get is that Mike Johnson was not picked for his skills or connections, but because he was someone who his party’s factions didn’t have an existing hate relationship with.
- slashdev 1y agoWhy do you blame Trump for the shutdown? Isn't it caused by Congress basically failing to agree on a funding continuation? (I think it's been ages since they could actually go further and agree on a budget). Government shutdowns are common under both Republican and Democrat administrations. You can say he refuses to compromise, but clearly so does the other side, hence the impasse.
- grebc 1y agoRepublican Congress is in his pocket. If he wanted a compromise you bet your bottom dollar it would happen.
- tialaramex 1y agoThere's a conflict because Trump thinks the obvious way forward is you destroy the filibuster, and the Republicans in the Senate fear that when there are more Democrats - say, after the mid-terms - they need the filibuster or else Democratic priorities can become law by simple majority. Imagine trying to explain to Trump that you can't destroy the filibuster because too many of your colleagues might lose an election. It's like telling a five year old that he can't have desert because he hasn't eaten the vegetables. He doesn't want to eat the vegetables, you are a bad person because rather than agreeing with him you're acting as if he's wrong, which is inconceivable. Some of Trump's advisors may have the idea that they can rig the 2026 elections and so it won't matter. A big problem is that some of these advisors also assured senators that they'd locked down 2020 and that didn't go so well. To Trump this seems irrelevant. Why should he care about Susan Collins? She's not even hot, and hasn't given him any cool trinkets. So what if she loses to some Democrat? They're both losers, Trump is the ultimate and his people have told him that over 600% of people support Trump, if she loses that's her fault. So that's a problem, a recurring problem and so far this term the solution has generally been to ignore Trump's useless suggestions but not do anything he explicitly forbids. Trouble is, Trump doesn't care about the shutdown but the at-risk Republican senators do care.
- grebc 1y agoI actually give Trump more credit for understanding scrapping filibuster is the wrong move. I also think he’s smart enough to realise people think he’s dumb. So he says scrap filibuster as a way to sow the seeds that there’s tension where there really isn’t. Maybe it’s too much 4D chess but he is a master manipulator of media/public opinion.
- yieldcrv 1y agoGiven that Trump and the left have the same view on this government shutdown as they’re both acknowledging how Republicans control both houses, I wouldn’t say this is part of any plan he has. Trump has called for the Senate to remove the filibuster, which would allow for the government to reopen with a simple majority instead of needing more votes from Democrats One could say the only endgame is unilateral control But this is an issue with Congress which Trump does not control. The Senate is not considering getting rid of the filibuster because of the threat its used in favor of Democrats after midterms
- actionfromafar 1y agoTrump needs to sooth the Senate with the message there will be no midterms.
- yieldcrv 1y agolmao that could actually work, scary
- immibis 1y agoAFAIK the existence of the filibuster is something that's separately decided every session. I think if the Republicans delete it for this session, and Democrats win the next one, they'll bring it back because they suffer from extreme normalcy bias / Business As Usual syndrome.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- pjdemers 1y agoThere is no end game. He makes everything up as he goes along. When (if?) the shutdown ends, he will claim victory no matter what the outcome. If it doesn't end, he will still claim victory. He always wins.
- Tiktaalik 1y agoPoor people starving is the upside for these folks.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- e40 1y agoRemember, the pain this is causing everyone means less to the people in power than does the benefits of this shutdown (to them). We can argue about what those benefits are all day long, but they wouldn't be refusing to have discussions with the Dems if there were not some benefit, be it political power they can wield, or whatever.
- nostrademons 1y agoIt's interesting how the effects of filter bubbles are playing out here. Everyone believes that they have the upper hand and the majority of the American people are on their side, because computerized personalization shows them only opinions from people who agree with them. As a result, they think that the negative popular opinion for the shutdown will fall primarily on the other party, and so it is rational for them to continue the shutdown until the other party blinks. Of course, the other party has the same information distortion in the opposite direction, so they also believe that if they just keep going, the American public will blame their opponents. In reality, the public is pretty close to split down the middle, and both parties are getting blamed, and the real message that people are taking away from this is that Congress is dysfunctional. It's a game of chicken where both parties think that the other side will blink, and so they just end up crashing.
- grebc 1y agoReminds me of the dysfunction the Roman Republic towards the end of it’s time. It’s not unique to the US however, I think maybe we are all approaching the end of the line for current political/civil systems without further work that no one seems interested in taking.
- actionfromafar 1y agoThat Meta and Twitter seems interested in. The tail isn’t wagging the dog anymore, the tail(s) are the dog at this point.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mothballed 1y agoIt's wild ATC isn't funded by use fees instead of being appropriated by congress. Seems like a good opportunity to provide some mechanism so the government has to shit or get off the pot, because if the government won't do the job the airlines would surely be glad to pay for the service themselves.
- bobthepanda 1y agoIt kind of is https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf The problem is that tax collection also happens with congressional approval.
- inglor_cz 1y agoThis seems to be a somewhat inefficient system. There is no absolute need to consider aviation fees to be taxes and collect them through a federal agency. Individual airports should be capable of financing their local ATC as they see fit, be it their own airport fees or, IDK, a surcharge on hamburgers sold in the local McD or a gift from a wealthy sponsor; and they should only have a duty to maintain certain technical standards.
- estearum 1y agoAre you certain maintaining those technical standards would be much more efficient than the current system?
- inglor_cz 1y agoCertain is a strong word, but in many other contexts, this is the actually used system, even in aviation. The FAA requires certain standards of maintenance for aircraft, for example, but individual mechanics aren't FAA employees.
- estearum 1y agoYeah, maintenance seems extremely different from ATC though. Defining and enforcing maintenance standards is trivial and happens well outside the second-to-second operational loop of aircraft actually coordinating.
- 8note 1y agowhy are traffic controllers government employees at all? wouldn't it be better for the government to maintain a standards/licensing body and only have a couple on staff as a "traffic controllers of last resort" during emergencies? when an traffic controller quits, what job can they go to? clearly not another airport
- pwthornton 1y agoIt's probably because a lot of smaller airports in the middle of nowhere would be hard to get coverage for. The current system sends controllers to where they are needed, not to where people want to work. Now, should more productive parts of the country be subsidizing air travel in less productive parts of the country? That's for you to decide.
- inglor_cz 1y ago"Now, should more productive parts of the country be subsidizing air travel in less productive parts of the country? That's for you to decide." I would say "no", personally. In the absence of a subsidy, the network of the rural airports would likely become sparser, but the surviving ones would have better economy and, as a result, infrastructure too.
- Freedom2 1y agoIsn't that arguably want rural communities want, however? I believe they're the strongest advocates of small government, less subsidies and pulling oneself (ie, their community) up by their bootstraps, regardless of what reality is.
- pwthornton 1y agoI think the issue with many rural Americans is that they don't realize they are the most subsidized people in this country.
- deleted 1y ago
- koolba 1y agoPull all air traffic controllers from private airports and shutdown all routes for private jets, then this government shutdown will be done by tomorrow morning.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 1y ago[flagged]
- barbazoo 1y agoFAA could restrict who flies in and out of airports, why not target private jets? It’s like closing traffic for cars but letting busses in. Much better unit economics in terms of passengers serviced.
- DontForgetMe 1y ago[flagged]
- koolba 1y ago> That's what PJ's means. It means pyjamas, it always has. I read it as pajamas. And I bet you enjoy burgers with chips rather than fries. But the point still stands.
- csa 1y ago> Absolutely no English speaker doesn't read 'PJs' as 'pyjamas'. While I agree that “pajamas” is the most common meaning of PJs, there is a certain socio-economic class in the US in which “PJs” is used far more often in speech to refer to private jets than pajamas. I’m a “language guy”, and it was a new one to me when I started spending more time around people who were referring to, and often users of, PJs. While the person you were responding to took a crass line, their linguistic intent was very clear to me.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- FL410 1y ago
- montroser 1y agoCurbing air traffic at major airports by 10% -- seems like this change alone would cause enough upheaval and disruption to everyday operations that it would offset any incremental relief from slightly lower traffic volume.
- dylan604 1y agoI heard a radio report that said something like 25,000-30,000 flights a day, so 10% would still be 2-3 thousand flights per day canceled. They said a majority of these would be the smaller legs from smaller airports to the larger hubs. The flights from hub to larger cities would be less impacted. However it breaks down, 2-3 thousand flights a day is a lot of flight crews not working, and similar cascading effects. So not only an inconvenience for travelers, but some people are going to take a financial hit because of this
- baq 1y agoFact: This government has done more to reduce CO2 emissions from aviation than any green protester could have hoped for. Interpretation: none from me. Don’t shoot the messenger.
- dylan604 1y agoYet still not as much as Osama bin Laden achieved. If you want to take things to the extreme, why stop where you tipped toed through the tulips to get to?
- slg 1y agoI know many of the people reading this will think I'm being hysterical. But there was a small voice in the back of my mind when the shutdown started wondering whether that version of the American government would ever reopen and that voice has started to become much louder in recent days. Specifically the combination of this, the handling of SNAP benefits, and this all happening in November just seems intentionally designed to cause unrest. Families going hungry and/or unable to fly to spend Thanksgiving together feels like a perfectly orchestrated way to cause mass civil unrest that an authoritarian could use to seize power.
- actionfromafar 1y agoThat’s MAGA for you.
- koolba 1y ago[flagged]
- blensor 1y agoSince the democrats are not the ones in power at the moment, don't they have the bigger obligation towards the position of the people who voted for them. Which would be exactly the demand they are making right now. The party who is running the country does in theory have an obligation to all Americans, the opposition has an obligation to their own block.
- tonetheman 1y agoThe Republicans are literally starving poor people. People who are on SNAP who have less than 3k in their bank accounts. Hateful and incompetent is how most people would describe that.
- RickJWagner 1y agoBoth parties are to blame. About a decade ago, Tea Party Republicans were in the minority, they refused to approve the budget as the Democrats are doing now. At that time, Democrats accused the Republicans of ‘holding the government hostage’. Now the roles are exactly reversed. It’s games as usual.
- andy99 1y agoI don’t know US specifically but I know a bit about Canadian air traffic controllers. It’s a high stress but very well paying job with good pension etc. But I suspect there’s not a lot of opportunity to change to another job and get the same pay and benefits. So I guess I wonder what the end game is in resigning? Is it just people taking some pre-specified early retirement option, is it early career people that just are cutting their losses? Unless I’m missing something it seems like for someone mid career at least, waiting it out seems like the only real option.
- rainsford 1y agoNot really ATC specific, but at some point most people in most jobs can't deal with indefinitely not getting paid and will have to go do something else even if they don't have a good backup plan. Working retail, driving for Uber, etc, all have vastly better ROI at the moment than working ATC getting a $0 paycheck. In theory they'll get backpay and have better future earnings prospects than leaving for an uncertain career change. But that's probably not as comforting as it should be since it's uncertain when that will happen, or even if, since the government has unnecessarily gone out of its way to cast doubt on the promise of backpay.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mrtksn 1y agoIf they are allowed at work when they are not being paid, why don’t the airlines create a fund where they just pay them something so they can survive the shut down? IIRC the shutdown isn’t happening that often, they probably can just put money in it and use it when needed
- ndsipa_pomu 1y agoAlternatively, why doesn't the government have an emergency fund for use to cover essential personnel/food etc during shutdowns?
- metalman 1y agoat a certain point, rebooting ATC could become exceptionaly difficult, as the whole aviation comunity, flys. And no, you cant train new AT controllers, they learn on the job, and what a job it is! as part of our pilot training they took us into a controll tower, which is a radicaly modern, high tech, high security environment, and let us hang around, the senior hand started chatting with us, while directing air traffic, ground traffic, confering with coleages, talking on the phone, telling us a joke, all at once, and his timing was so good, that the joke was still funny......these are guys who can do other stuff
- noir_lord 1y agoDepending how bad it gets you could end up in a situation where European controllers are needed to at least help get things stood up again but while the job is similar the systems won’t be. That or you pay the ones who’ve resigned a shit load of money. It astounds me how quickly they are breaking things that took decades or more to build.
- ryandrake 1y agoAlso, there are strict medical (including mental health) and age requirements in order to become and remain an ATC. You need to be under 31 to apply and must retire at age 56.
- nakamoto_damacy 1y agoElon Musk will step in to save the day and privatize air traffic control. The government will transform the nation into a fully decentralized economy owned and operated by oligarchs, with the role of the government shrinking to that of a mediator between the various oligarchs, and employed directly by the oligarchs. Kind of like how they describe it in the sci-fi show Alien Earth.
- forinti 1y agoThis thought gives me Back to the Future II vibes. Trump even reminds me of Biff.
- sharts 1y agoCue AI traffic control
- morkalork 1y agoYou're absolutely right, that is another plane in your flight path.
- pessimizer 1y agoIf the Democrats are smart, they'll keep the shutdown going until Trump folds, keep it going until the midterms if they have to. It's the first thing they're doing that people like, they blame Trump for all the misery. He's jumping in front of the bullet by trying to stop SNAP under a goofy theory that Democrats actually care if people go hungry. Many Republicans have this strange but deeply-held crazy belief that Democrats are motivated by ideology rather than the same money that they themselves are motivated by, so they always think threatening to cut the baby in half will work. And he's busy building a ballroom. People are really loving flights getting cancelled and more expensive, hard to blame that on immigrant fent terrorist antifa; and if there's anything that middle-class people hate, it's minor inconvenience. Dems don't have to say anything (in fact it's better if they don't say anything) or do anything. Just watch the poll numbers go up and the donations from health insurers go up. All rational people agree that Obamacare sucks. But the Republicans are fighting to make it worse.
- bsder 1y ago> All rational people agree that Obamacare sucks. Um, no, we don't. Remember recission panels? Remember not being able to get insurance if you had sleep apnea (aka pre-existing condition)? I can go on and on about exactly how insurance sucked shit before the ACA. The ACA could be better, and it was supposed to be adjusted over time. The problem is that we've got an entire party in the US who sole solution to the problems in the ACA is "Destroy it all" without providing a single alternative or improvement.
- Tadpole9181 1y agoSince when have Republicans or Libertarians ever cared about the truth on the ACA? They still call it Obamacare, for God's sake. From the very beginning they talked of "Death Panels", that quite literally already existed in insurance companies. And on zero basis, the ACA has no such thing!
- casey2 1y ago[flagged]
- MangoToupe 1y ago> after AGI is invented Jesus christ. We've invented a new religion and started chucking trillions at it
- forinti 1y agoAre there any laws that protect labour in the US? Will they get their salaries and some extra compensation for the tardiness?
- csa 1y ago> Are there any laws… in the US? Laws are irrelevant if they are not enforced. Laws are being very slowly or very selectively enforced these days, while some of the powers that be are flagrantly breaking laws. > Will they get their salaries and some extra compensation for the tardiness? Theoretically, yes. Just regular pay plus OT that they are owed. No bonus or extra compensation. Also, most of these folks can fairly easily get low interest loans from banks or credit cards that will be due when they get back pay. Part of this story is not being told, but I’m not sure what part. Were these folks who were about to retire anyway? Were these folks who plan on getting hired back when the government reopens? I’m not sure, but I don’t think the complete story is being told here (not necessarily with malice or intent).
- viccis 1y ago>Are there any laws that protect labour in the US? Air traffic controllers are famously a group of people who were just mass fired for striking. These days the laws in the US actually protect the airlines from them by making it illegal for them to strike.
- epolanski 1y agoATC should, like some other essential services, be exempt the budget thing. This is a disaster in the making.
- Waterluvian 1y agoWhy are Americans paying for ICE agents to terrorize America but aren’t paying for ATCs to protect Americans? What decides what is and is not an essential service?
- Tadpole9181 1y agoFrankly, the dictator.
- xphos 1y agoRemember the ATCs never recovered from the staffing shortage when Reagan fired them for striking on working conditions. The conditions have not improved the hiring has never caught up. Rates of alcholalism from work induced stress is extremely high and they have been showing up for work while not getting paid. Anyone who calls all public sector people lazy or entitled, remember ATCs are government workers do work extremely hard and most log extensive overtime. These are government workers and they are American Heros through and through
- drivingmenuts 1y agoI get the impression that some people in Washington think all government employees are lazy and entitled.
- soupfordummies 1y agoWho do you mean? The lazy and entitled government elected representatives?
- radar1310 1y agoYeah Happy Holidays everyone.
- phendrenad2 1y agoThis whole shutdown seems engineered to enable privatization. I wouldn't be at all surprised if ATCs get outsourced to some federal contractor.
- nullocator 1y agoDidn't DOGE/Musk try this or at least talk about it? Like modernizing the whole system or something? I don't think the turn around time on such a conversion would be very quick. I'm not sure there are thousands of qualified controllers waiting in the wings private sector, though maybe I'm wrong about that.
- mvdtnz 1y agoI can't believe it takes this long. I would resign the very first day my paycheque doesn't arrive. There's one and only one reason I go to work every day.
- fortranfiend 1y agoWhat happens when people don't get paid for multiple months.
- insane_dreamer 1y agoStop paying ICE and use the money to pay ATCs.
- utopcell 1y agoThe disrespect towards these people is unfathomable.
- gigatexal 1y ago[flagged]
- AgentK20 1y agoAnd here we see a system that was already stretched to the breaking point BEFORE the shutdown, put under an incredible strain and failing. A more robust system can handle sudden shocks, but when you’ve spent years whittling away at it there’s no slack.
- xg15 1y agoI get that the Trump admin doesn't care a bit about the impact of the shutdown on the general population (they're fighting in court for NOT having to release the emergency funding that would instantly reinstate SNAP) and probably even welcome it as an opportunity for "government downsizing" - but things like air traffic becoming restricted would start to touch even the areas that the ultra-rich are interested in, would it?
- jeena 1y agoNo, because there will be always some left and those will be used to get the private jets off the ground first.
- gafferongames 1y agoNot if they have private planes, unfortunately.
- samrus 1y agoPrivate planes dont need air traffic controllers?
- enigmo 1y agoit depends on the airport and airspace. it's not required everywhere.
- andrewmunsell 1y agoNo one rich enough flying what the average person would consider a "private jet" or private plane would be flying VFR from uncontrolled airport to uncontrolled airport. The "ultra rich" are not puttering around in single-engine Cessnas
- enigmo 1y agonot going to argue with that, there were single engine comments on the thread though.
- samrus 1y agoSo the deadlock is over ACA premium tax credits. A subsidy towards premiums, inversely proportional to income. Republicans have to budge on this right? Health insurance is already dire in this country, you cant fuck it up even more. The working class is the biggest part of the citizenry, and we are in an affordability crisis
- salawat 1y agoNever underestimate how bad things can get. They can always get worse.
- tombert 1y agoSomehow the Republicans have managed to convince their constituents that somehow stuff that will objectively fuck them over is actually not fucking them over. It's impressive in its own way. I have seen people who still don't seem to understand the (extremely) simple "there's no such thing as a free lunch" part of economics and genuinely still think that the tariffs are going to be paid purely by China, because apparently they don't realize that for-profit businesses bake all overhead (including taxes and tariffs) into the total cost. It really isn't that complicated, but I guess the distortion field around "owning the left" makes them turn off this logic.
- gigatexal 1y ago[flagged]
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago60% of ACA recipients are in Republican controlled districts. That shows how much they care about their constituents.
- antonymoose 1y agoWhat percentage of this recipients are Republican constituents?
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
- jmclnx 1y agoIf this keeps going, lots of knowledge will be lost. But at least by retiring they will start getting paid (I think) via 401k, Social Security or pensions. In a way we have an idea what to expect. When Reagan fired the controllers in 1981/2, AFAIK there were no major incidents with air travel. But I think Military Controllers were brought in to cover the holes the firing left. This time, I thought I saw Military Controllers are unable to cover or were told not to cover. so I guess we will see how this plays out with a set of crazy people in charge of the US.
- Jtsummers 1y ago> But at least by retiring they will start getting paid (I think) via 401k, Social Security or pensions. Gov't 401k is called TSP, and like regular 401k plans it's not accessible (without penalties) until you're 59 1/2. Social Security also has a minimum age (62) before you can start receiving benefits. ATC can access FERS earlier than other federal employees because of their mandatory retirement age (56) which is below MRA under FERS (57 for most people now). They can get their pension at age 50 with 20 years of ATC time or any age with 25 years of ATC time (some other services also get this benefit and count towards that). And an important point there, because ATCs retire before 59 1/2 and before 62 by necessity (56 is the oldest they can be), they won't get their TSP or Social Security for several more years. Pensions are being held up for people who are retiring right now as the people processing retirements are also furloughed (I don't think all, but it's impacted friends of mine with delays to processing). Retirements are already slow to process and occasionally people end up waiting 6+ months to get their pension (they should get back pay in that case, but it's still months without income).
- iJohnDoe 1y agoSerious question. Not trolling. What happened to Elon Musk taking over Air Traffic Control? Whole new system? Grok controlled ATC?
- gigatexal 1y agolol I don’t want my plane to crash into another plane…
- walletdrainer 1y agoIt’s hardly a herculean task to replace most atc functions with software, detecting planes which are on collision course and instructing them how to avoid that being one of the easiest tasks. Of course you’d still sometimes need a human in the loop, but you could get by with much less staff
- CyberMacGyver 1y agoThe classic Dunning–Kruger effect It’s always the people with no experience in a domain thinking any profession can be automated away except theirs.
- walletdrainer 1y agoI’m a pilot though, so fairly familiar with how ATC works. In many places most day-to-day atc operations are already automated and the work is largely data-entry/answering service on the radio. We’re starting to get to the point where speech recognition is better than humans, so it would be perfectly fine to have humans communicate routine atc stuff with a robot. Of course we’ll need humans available to react to emergencies.
- Jtsummers 1y agoIt was all bull, as are most things he promised with DOGE and his efforts.
- retrochameleon 1y agoI'm a heavy gamer. I like lots of strategy games. Sometimes I look at our country like a strategy game: where we are investing resources, infrastructure planning and investment, active problems or threats and how they are being prioritized and handled, managing citizen happiness, etc. The last 10-20 years feel like a massive lost opportunity to invest in some of these improvements and forward-thinking planning. In the last few years, it feels like catastrophic decision after decision. I can't help but look at the state of America and feel like I'm looking at an inexperienced amateur player taking a relatively strong game position and slowly throwing it away. Crumbling infrastructure, weak citizen cohesion and education, intentional weakening of our own national and cyber security in more than one way, not to mention all the harm being done to our reputation and relationships with other countries. It feels like we are in a weaker position then ever: militaristically, economically, scientifically, and so on. Meanwhile the threats of China and Russia and what could happen in the next few years are quite concerning. I'm pretty pessimistic right now. I know the world and the US is not as simple as a strategy game, but tons of principles from strategy games well-understood by experienced players sure could help with more wise use of resources. Attention and time are also incredibly valuable resources that feel like they are being thrown away right now. Getting into a major conflict could help unify The People and put focus on more important problems in the country, but as far as I'm concerned, I think all the other NATO countries would be the ones holding the war effort together. I'm just ranting at this point though.
- jameskilton 1y agoAmericans today are incapable of envisioning a better future and incapable of envisioning a worse one! We as a society are now only able to focus on what problems exist now, and to demand that they are fixed tomorrow. There are a lot of problems that can be solved over decades, but we can no longer even fathom such a thing, much less put together the will power to see such projects through.
- senderista 1y agoI can't escape the impression that the person currently most responsible for these shortsighted decisions simply doesn't care what happens after he's gone.
- neko_ranger 1y agoWould increasing the age limit of 31 for new air traffic controllers fix anything?
- pinkmuffinere 1y agoWow, didn’t realize there’s an age limit for new controllers! That does seem silly
- TylerE 1y agoNo it doesn’t. They require years of specialized training paid for on the governments dime, and have a mandatory retirement at age 56. Much older than 31 and it simply does not justify the expense of training.
- edmundsauto 1y agoWe can always re-examine our priors and assumptions given the current context. It's also worth considering other fields. For example, military helicopter pilots training is longer, more expensive, and frequently only requires a 6-8 year commitment. It doesn't pass a sanity check that a 25 year career should be too much of a concern... if they were treated well.
- Dusseldorf 1y agoI can't imagine you're getting a huge inflow of people in their 30s or above itching to spend years training for a job where you won't get paid for months at a time at the whims of fighting politicians.
- user68858788 1y agoA quick search shows that there are over 20,000 ATCs employed in the United States. (I'm not confident in the sources I found - anyone know where to get reliable stats for things like this?) Is the number of retiring ATCs higher than normal? I assume it is, but the article doesn't mention the baseline. It's hard for me to understand the scale of the issue from this article alone.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- vidarh 1y agoIf we take the lower number of 15, than that is nearly 5.5k a year. Even if we round it down, that'd be 25% a year if your number is right and this situation continued. Of course it can't continue very long, because there won't be that many old enough to have the choice, presumably. But it's a crazy rate.
- statsma 1y agoThe lower number is 0. It’s upto 15 or 20, such a nonsense statement - a clickbait article
- user68858788 1y agoThat does sound dire. There’s the replacement rate to consider still, though I imagine new hires are close to 0 with the shutdown in effect.
- toomuchtodo 1y agoThere is currently a shortage of ~3k controllers (as of this comment), and the time to train and put new controllers into service is significant. Excess retirements reduces time to system failure due to labor shortages. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications > Entry-level applicants must complete required training courses and spend several months at the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City. Applicants are paid while in training. After graduating the academy, individuals are placed in locations across the country and must gain 2-3 years additional training, both classroom and on-the-job experience, before becoming a certified professional controller. This rigorous training includes close supervision and evaluation by senior controllers that ensures controllers are competent, professional, know their airspace environment and can deal with the pressures and high pace of the job. Controllers in training have been quitting because of the shutdown. Flights to Los Angeles Airport halted due to air traffic controller shortage - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45715771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45715771 - October 2025 > The shutdown is having real consequences, as some students at the controller academy have already decided to abandon the profession because they don’t want to work in a job they won’t be paid for, Duffy said. That will only make it harder for the FAA to hire enough controllers to eliminate the shortage, since training takes years. He said that the government is only a week or two away from running out of money to pay students at the academy. Air traffic controller shortages cause widespread flight delays amid government shutdown - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/air-traffic-controller-shortages-cause-widespread-flight-delays-rcna241284 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/air-traffic-controller-... - November 1st, 2025 > “Currently nearly 50 percent of major air traffic control facilities are experiencing staffing shortages, and nearly 90 percent of air traffic controllers are out at New York–area facilities,” the FAA said in a statement posted on X on Friday evening. (think in systems)
- rdtsc 1y ago10 years or so ago the controllers got hit with a hiring scandal https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-faas-hiring https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa... Wonder how that changed the perception and the desire to become an ATC. Did it have a measurable impact, with folks avoiding that line of work. Or, it hasn't really made much of a difference? The idea is if many are retiring but we're graduating or hiring just as many or more, that's not that bad.
- wnevets 1y agoMusk firing a bunch of them at the start year sure is paying off!
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- throwaway984393 1y ago[dead]